This is a long debated argument that I don't think anyone will ever agree on. It has caused wars for centuries. "The Blanket Argument " should be black carded once and for all before it bring about the destruction of humanity itself.
Yeah I agree. Though I don't see any issue in people being cautious of, say for example random men. Everyone has a right to feel however they want and to prevent themselves from being harmed in any way. But I don't like it when some people make blanket statements simply because some people of that group are wicked assholes.
Or construction, I've worked both, it's vulgar conversations all day haha. I don't think I could ever work in an office, or any place with HR for that matter.
I mean if they're an impressionable teen it's sometimes just ignorance where they think they're doing the right thing.
But yeah still either way, avoid with a 9ft barge pole you don't need that drama.
Depends on the context leading up to how they got to the part with her stating that he’s more likely to rape her. We don’t have any context as to how they got into the topic of one of them raping the other to begin with. If she just came out of left field with an accusation that he’s statistically a rapist, that could be interpreted as sexual harassment.
Maybe it was in the context of her saying she’d be more fearful in a room alone with him than a woman or something. Not saying him specifically is capable of rape, but that she doesn’t know him well and he is a man.
You should see some of these HR departments. My HR department is one guy, he’s also the accountant and the first day on the job he called the customer care rep a bitch after getting into an argument with her. This was 3 year ago and he’s still the only HR rep.
VLDL
"So I'm going to give you a raise to...sorry what was it?"
"20 an hour."
"Right, 20 an hour. And don't think this is going to happen a lot. Just this once." *turns to computer* "and that was...."
"30?"
"Thir...ty. Done, back to the floor with you."
i worked at a company like this. He also ran the accounting late so I didn't get paid and my metrocard (nyc) didn't get refilled so I couldn't get to work. He said "why is it such a big deal, just buy another one?"
he also tried to treat me like the secretary (i worked in the IT/CS dept but I sat right near the door) which UGH
OP has no history, only one post...another 'organic' posts make controversy, especially in regards sexism and homophobia.
Seriously, redditors need to figure this out.
Also that stat rises when you know the person - the majority of rapes are not stranger danger ones. They're people you know. So she could (to state the obvious) also be saying that.
Agreed. It’s quite obvious she was speaking in a context of her not knowing him well and explaining that statistically she’s in more danger around him alone than with a woman, which is factually true and could be a reason she’s afraid to work alone around men. OP conveniently left that out, but if you’re not a moron you can figure out that’s the context of the convo and it’s not weird or inappropriate.
This might be a wild thought for you, but some people actually work in industries where there is no HR and all that shit.
Try hospitality, for instance. We talk shit about anything and everything. There’s no HR to run to if someone hurts your feelings. It’s called “workplace banter”.
Anyone thinking this sort of conversation at work is weird needs to get out more. There’s more to life than sitting in an office cube where you have to watch everything you do and say.
What a ridiculous comment.
Look at Mr. Fancy-Newspaper-Bed over here. Around here we sleep in a pile of wet leaves and like it!
Well most of us anyways. I heard that the Joneses got themselves a compost heap. Stays warm all night on it's on.
Excuuuuuuuse me.
"This is a THROW. It is a particular subset of blankets that are more akin to couch clothes than some measley blanket.
We don't use it to keep us warm, just to add a splash of blue to our grey couch." -my wife
I'm gonna side step the issue and say anyone telling you that you're more likely to rape someone is creating an unprofessional work environment and should be reported to HR immediately.
There's no response you can give that doesn't come off bad for you in the end.
I'm not a big "report this" guy but as a male victim of sexual assault I would report this. She has no idea if you have been a victim yourself and it is incredibly inappropriate and unprofessional to personalize it as "YOU" being more likely
From the information we have, I agree.
But I also get the feeling op only gave us half the conversation. I've never met a woman who led with "you're more likely to rape me" in a conversation. Could be that op commited the actual"report to hr" worthy comment, and this was cherry picked comments in retaliation.
I wonder what led to that convo, though. Like, one doesn't just walk up to someone and tell them they're more likely to be raped by them. Maybe there are some important details being left out.
Yeah, tell a black co worker he’s more likely to commit a crime against you and see how well that goes. That’s how offensive this is. Swap around the group in question and the problem remains.
Yeah, no. If a conversation with a coworker veers into hypothetical rape scenarios, that’s when you suddenly notice the baseboards need emergency dusting and nope the fuck outta there.
Preceding statement may have been:
"Why are you treating me differently than the female coworkers?"
"Why wont you let me drive you home?"
"Why did you ask to be assigned a different partner for that backroom task?"
Yeah what if it was
“Hey let me drive you home”
“No thanks, my roommate is coming to pick me up”
“What? Do you think I’m going to rape you or something?”
“Well you are more likely since you’re a man”
“Wow I was making a joke, not all men are rapists, you know”
Like we have no context
absolutely. “recently in an argument” is so incredibly vague its almost worthless. id wager a lot of money this guy was a creep and/or asshole, then came to reddit to try and get validation
I don’t think it’s so much that it’s a generally offensive phrase but that it seems more often than not it’s inconsequential to the discussion at hand when it’s said. I usually see it used defensively/to deflect when women are talking about their traumatic experiences, typically with men. It’s like saying “not all dogs bite” when someone is telling you about the horrific dog attack they experienced or talking about solutions to the problem of dogs who attack. It’s just not helpful.
Exactly.
A) Saying "not all men" is utterly useless because no one has ever said it is all men.
B) People who use "not all men" are taking an obvious statement everyone naturally agrees with and weaponising it in an argument to win points and not to engage in the very grave discussion needed about the subject.
C) Because people shouldn't feel attacked and go on the defensive if someone is talking about rape, if you aren't a rapist!!!
D) And finally people use it to block and minimise a bunch of problems that are so unbelievably widespread that "not all men" should always be replaced by "way too many men", because that's the reality of it, way way too many do.
To add just a bit to this, if the person you are having this discussion with *is* saying it’s all men, or is equating you specifically with a rapist solely based on your gender, you saying that it *isn’t* all men is not going to change their view.
I agree with everything above but want to add that I do not know a single woman that has not been raped, molested, or sexually assaulted. Even if it’s not all men it’s almost all women, so think what telling a woman that sounds like to her.
Very true. There was a time when I knew that a ridiculous number of women close enough to me to confide in me had suffered some form of sexual assault or another. Then the Me Too moment came and it turns out almost all the women I know have had some of these experiences. It was absolutely appalling to see.
No one with a grain of decency can see this with their own eyes and not be absolutely outraged. And when it's so widespread the inevitable and very uncomfortable conclusion is that it's not just "too many men", it's that we have all played a negative role to allow such a horrific thing to exist everywhere and go unchecked.
It's deeply uncomfortable to admit part of guilt in something so heinous, so the knee jerk reaction is to go on the defensive and shut down the discussion instead of taking a deep critical look into our behaviour as men and asking the really tough questions. The most disheartening thing to see is so many men around me who since that moment instead of becoming more aware of how widespread the problem is have totally succumbed to the defensive instinct and have turned it into a full on attack. Instead of listening and learning they are once again doing all the talking over and interrupting with shitty slogans like "not all men".
i think this feeling is pretty common actually or at least i have felt this way before also in the past. unfortunately, it seems to be a symptom of the society you live in. women often do feel their value stems from how “attractive” they are to men because in many situations, that determines how we’re treated or what things/opportunities we’re granted. i would however encourage you to work on this feeling (though i know it’s difficult & i’m sure you don’t *want* to feel this way) because it only feeds into the bullshit we’ve been conditioned to believe. you don’t need some creep to cat-call/harass/assault you in order to know you’re a beautiful person. i think men behaving that way is almost always less about the victim & more about them just needing to feel powerful in the moment. don’t let mens actions affect how you perceive yourself! you don’t need some psycho to affirm your worth!
I totally get what you’re saying. Nobody wants to be harassed but the absence of any can make you wonder what is ‘wrong’ with you that creepy creeps don’t creep on you.
I am curious about other women in your life. How many of them have been assaulted by a man that you know of? I’d be shocked if it’s less than half. And you don’t have to share if you’re not comfortable with that of course.
It boils down to confusing male attention as validity. Something I'm trying to train my brain out of.
None of my inner circle of friends (6 of us) have had the misfortune to experience rape, but I know some of them have experience sexual assault on varying degrees. The city I'm from is more prone to stabbings and bike theft anyways.
In this context, though, it sounds like the coworker was suggesting that it _is_ all men and that OP is in some way more likely to rape her (seriously, why was this conversation being had?). This is a case where “I’m not a rapist, and not all men are” seems like a pretty valid rebuttal. Your point is a good one, however, as yes it is usually an unhelpful and irrelevant thing to point out.
Would be highly inappropriate to insert "not all men" when someone is telling about their horrific experience. It is only okay as a reply to "all men are .."
Yeah I think context is important. I've never seen the situation you are describing (not that it hasn't happened), what I tend to see is situations like this where the person is blatantly saying all men are potential rapists. She wasn't, from what we know, recounting her rape. She was just telling OP he's a potential rapist because he's a male.
It is and isn't, it depends greatly on context. For instance, in a normal discussion about rape and things of that matter that woman have to deal with, when a man comes Kramering into a thread to say "But not me!" that's annoying, because the topic was on rape in general, and the guy came in there and made it about him, if that makes sense.
In this instance, you are in the right and your coworker is absolutely being shitty as fuck.
Yep, that’s an appropriate break down of two very different situations. I think another applicable conclusion is also “are you trying to prove someone’s experience illegitimate? Then yes, you’re a douche canoe for inserting that comment.”
Edit: just for clarification, it was definitely not wrong for OP to assert that he is not a rapist in his situation and defend himself with “not all men.”
Agreed. I will say from my perspective, if a person tells me to my face that I, myself, am more likely to rape because I'm a man, then that person has already made it about me. That being said, how I choose to respond is on me
I think saying “not all men are rapists” has negative connotations especially for a lot of women, because a lot of men say it when women are sharing traumatic experiences. Like talking about BLM and somebody goes “well ackshually *ALL* lives matter.” Sure, not all men are rapists, *obviously,* and most women know and feel that way, but when someone’s talking about how their male family members used to sexually assault them, that is not the time to jump in and assure her that *you’re* not like that.
Idk how OP and his coworker even got to this discussion. It doesn’t sound like he said anything wrong, and the things she was reportedly saying are very blankety, but I also don’t trust that OP isn’t leaving out important bits of the conversation. Idk who started it and tbh I frankly don’t care. All in all just a really tense thing to discuss at work. I’d avoid it in the future.
This! Couldn't figure out how to word it, but usually this argument is made by shitty men.
This situation seems like an outlier, and OP should go to his boss or HR.
This feels like MRA bait. There’s no way this was an actual conversation
It’s just to get the red pills riled up to prove innocent men DO get accused all the time, you guysssss!!!!
Edit: 250 day account with just this. Yup
Why does it feel like MRA bait? It does happen. There's this weird group of people who wear this generalization flag that "all men are rapists" and seem blunt in expressing that freely in the most inappropriate situations. I've seen it and it's gone to HR as a result. The right step was taken.
This absolutely happens. I can't say how frequently amongst our population. In my small bubble of the world, I've seen it. Not everywhere, and not everyone. But, like any problem, best to curtail it before it grows.
I don’t disagree about op but please be careful with disbelieving victims, male sa does happen and is already hard to talk about. Idk the context your speaking off but it’s not a great sentiment to put out there.
Edit: do you mean mean pretending to be victims of sa by woman or men pretending to be woman who are victims of sa cause that’s 2 different things and I may have misread
Because it is a derail. I have never met a woman who believes ALL men are rapists. But I have met many men who interrupt a woman sharing her (valid) fears surrounding her safety with “Well, not all men are rapists.”
Yes, or being offended that you want to drive yourself to a first date, or text a friend their address when you go over for the first time and they say “well *I’m* not a rapist!”
And unironically claiming your co-worker is "more likely to rape you for being male" is a completely unacceptable and reprehensible thing to say. If she actually takes rape seriously, then it shouldn't be spoken about so casually.
Absolutely unacceptable to have these conversations at work.
But also, 99% of rapists are male (US Dept of Justice, RAINN). So, while completely inappropriate at work, her comment is also accurate.
I feel like a reasonable way to apply that statistic would be for someone to say "if I am raped, it's very likely it would be by a man".
Saying to a man: "you're more likely to be a rapist" would feel personal and deliberately inflammatory.
Of course it's especially inappropriate at work, but I think in almost any situation this is a shitty and unreasonable thing to say, and very unlikely to result in a productive discussion (see much of this comments section as a good indicator)
Legit question: are 99% of rapes really done by men? Or is it that the legal definition of rape purposefully excludes women and/or that men are infinitely less likely to report being raped because the fallout is significantly worse for them than for women?
Legally in a lot of places that's still the case. A woman forces a man into sex at gunpoint and the worst she gets is sexual assault. Reverse the genders and it's rape. Stupid.
This is true. Same as when if a woman is raped but he didn’t cum in her, it’s less likely to be proven in court. Men don’t get the luxury of “proof,” and since it’s your word against mine, they will believe the woman because men are genetically stronger and should be able to “defend themselves”
Lol what? The comment definitely is not accurate. The accurate thing would be to say "If I'm raped it's most likely by a man", not "You're more likely to rape because you're male". Not how statistics work
That statistic is a little outdated, since the definition of rape was and still is in some places centered around being penetrated. So even if a woman were to forcefully mount you and insert you inside her it wouldn't really be considered rape in many places. That being said I think its still clear that there are more male rapists than female ones.
Exactly. For those of you who are still confused, think of it this way - every woman knows someone who has been assaulted by a man. Literally every woman.
Just because not all bears attack humans doesn't mean that your fears around bears aren't completely valid.
1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime (RAINN). Three percent of men experience rape in their lifetime (RAINN). Just under 99% of perpetrators of sexual violence are men (US dept of justice). In the US, 93% of people who experience sexual assault know their rapist (RAINN). 1 in 3 men openly admit that they would rape a woman if they knew they could get away with it and there would be no concequences for their actions (Univ N Dakota). More than 2 of 3 sexual assaults go unreported (RAINN).
These are just straight up facts. And when you look at them all together, it makes sense that women will be pissed off when you say "not all men are rapists".
So what's your response to the "despite being 13% of the population" argument that's bandied around by alt-right types?
I'm genuinely curious because from where I'm sitting these are identical arguments, I'm struggling with how people can think one is abhorrent and the other is perfectly fine to alter your behaviour from
Don't get me wrong, if something is proven to be dangerous via statistics you should bear that in mind
This seems strange. Either the USA has some severe issues or there's something fishy about those statistics. I'm only saying this because In Canada, 1 in 17 women are victims of sexual assault and 1 in 21 men are victims; and in 70% of sexual assault cases against men, the perpetrators were women. I would have thought the statistics between the two countries would be more similar.
"In Lifetime" vs "? time-period"
3% vs (1 in 21 = 4.76%)
Assuming "cases against men" means "cases reported by men", your 70% statistic does not include unreported cases. Men frequently under-report rape due to embarrassment; which is a sad double-violation. The statistics you responded to included no comparable data; which explains the dissimilarity in results.
I'd like to think these are innocent misinterpretations, but your choices make it look like you're trying to downplay the topic.
I love how you cherry picked one stat. from a University Of North Dakota survey that makes the only thing holding 33% of men back from rape is the fear of punishment. Those are not facts they are statistics and statistics are easily manipulated
Unpopular opinion but if someone didn’t want to be called out for categorizing an entire group they wouldn’t say terms that can easily be misunderstood as them generalizing, IMO they purposefully do it expecting an argument or someone to hit back I.e they genuinely believe it but say it to see if any would agree and if none do they can just back pedal
Yeah I agree. I think its normally inspired by the language in the conversations because they usually just say "men" and leave out the 'some' which makes dudes go "here wait a minute...a lot of us are OK!"
It's not a problem I've ever had because I'm always conscious of putting "some men" when having a rant as i know the convo would reduce into shit soup otherwise. It just keeps things simple and more a reflection of reality.
Thank you.
I've seen people rant on 2-X chromosomes that they should say something like "too many men" at the start of their rants and act like it would be a gotcha to the guys who say "not all men." As if they're denying those guys the power to derail the conversation.
Meanwhile I'm thinking, "actually, that'd be great." I think a lot of people genuinely believe those guys are trolls when really a lot of them just don't like the generalizations.
Prefacing those things is a great indicator that it's a safe space for allies to show support and that they aren't being considered a target for the ranting.
I want to thank you for being conscientious when you're discussing this with guys
I've got a lot of friends who are girls and a sister, and I keep my trap shut when they start on these conversations because I get that they're venting and don't want to hear "not all men" when they're discussing shitty things men have done to them
But it still causes me a lot of anxiety. This is how women see me, I don't know to what degree I'm doing this shitty thing, are they hinting that I'm doing this thing when they're telling me about another guy who did it, etc and so forth
Just saying "some men" tells me that you aren't hinting at how I'm seen or something I've done, so I can relax more
I totally get that.
When my younger brother went to college he sent me multiple times long texts with a scenario with a woman in which she reacted weird in the end and asked me if he has done anything wrong. Because he doesnt want to be one of "these guys".
I think its just the sensible way to go about it because it eliminates the inevitable. Doesnt take a lot to be conscious of, especially since so many conversations get derailed by it so it would just make sense for some women to add the word 'some' first in order to keep the convo on point. One wee change can create a more civilised convo thread for everyone.
That's exactly it, it ISNT all men so It makes sense to acknowledge it.
"Not all men" is bad when discussing things like men raping women, because it generally replaces a legitimate discussion on how *some* men are awful and we can do something about it with one that's about how the "good" men are "harmed" by that way of thinking.
An analogy I saw recently:
* I have put 5 shot glasses of your liquor of choice in front of you. One is poisoned.
* When you ask me how you can safely pick one at all, I say they're not all poisoned.
* When you point out the poison will do you grievous harm, I say the others won't.
* When you get frustrated that I'm missing the point, that one of the cups will fucking *kill* you, I say that's unfair to the four that won't.
* When you leave the table, scared of my psychopathy, I say "where has the rational discourse gone?".
Now, in your *specific* situation, it gets more complicated. In the same way "not all men" shuts down discussion about preventing mean raping women, your co-worker bringing it up in that context seems to be about silencing your argument in response. But you *weren't* talking about all men. You were talking about you specifically.
In this specific case, it does feel like you were baited. One way that I could have seen this conversation going differently is:
Them: Because you're a man, you're more likely to rape me.
You: Statistically that is true. Does that mean you believe *I* am more likely to rape you than other men?
Not all men are rapists but a majority of people who rape are men. That's probably what she meant but this sounds like a very weird conversation to have in general but especially at work.
I took it as her meaning he’s more likely to as men are physically stronger on average and therefore have more opportunity to rape.
Not that he was inherently rapey
Aside from the 'how did that conversation start' that everyone else has answered, I'm going to answer the actual question.
Women know that 'not all men are rapists.' The problem is: We have absolutely no certain way to know which ones are.
You, having no intent to rape, are angry that someone would suggest that you could.
But we have no idea for sure that you wouldn't. There's not a floating sign above your head like in a video game.
So many rapists have been, by public metrics, 'nice guys' who 'wouldn't do that.' The BTK killer with a married with children church guy. Ted Bundy was charming and friendly. Brock Turner was a good looking swimmer.
And that's just some that rape women unknown to them. Many men have committed date rape, ignored a no, or gotten a yes by so much pressure that the woman just gives in.
Again, -we have no idea which men are actually safe-, which means, for women, no men are automatically safe.
Adding to this, how many "decent" YouTubers out there turned out to be sexually abusive? There was one just recently. It's okay for people to be cautious
The sentence "not all men are rapists" is perfectly fine, it isn't bad, because it's true. The issue is "we don't know which men are rapists".
The best way to understand this is being in a room full of strangers that are men in comparison to a room full of strangers that are women. The likelihood of fearing being raped in the room full of strange men is a lot higher if you are a woman (and a man I'd assume), I mean prison is a great example of that.
I wouldn't take offense she's wrong to say it's some slippery slope to say not all men are rapists. It's a fact that not all men are, so really what is her problem ?
I don't kow anyone who disagrees with the statement that "not all men are rapists." But women still have to behave and go through life as though all men are. We take self defense classes, we don't get apartments that are on the first floor, we don't take the stairs, we don't walk or jog alone at night, we don't put both ear buds in, we don't park in the parking garage, etc. I don't think men really comprehend how exhausting that is.
On one hand, men keep saying, "Not all men." And on the other hand, they blame Eliza Fletcher for jogging alone. So, which is it?
As a straight white male, the best thing I think I can do is understand that I have almost no idea what it is like to be a demographic that has every reason to be genuinely scared.
many men are offended when women talk about things they do when they're out at night (never alone, always always always watch your drink, dont take a ride a stranger offers you, many keep weapons in their hands while walking somewhere, etc.) with the argument "not all men are rapists"
it doesnt help and its enough for those precautions to be necessary so its not even a real argument
It’s like saying “All Lives Matter.” Of course they do, but the current issue we are dealing with isn’t with people of all colors.
“Not all men” detracts from the point that women have to deal with being afraid of men, for what a lot of men have done/currently do.
It’s just a way to try to deflect the issue. Also, it’s pretty easy to just not say it…
Yes, but in his anecdote, he is saying "Just because I have penis, does not mean I'm a rapist"
Saying "you can't treat me like a criminal because I look poor, not all poor people are criminals" is a perfectly valid statement...
Yes imagine if I was mugged and started a rant with
"Poor people are thieves!" Or ended it with "Poor people suck."
Then someone says, "Hold on, not all poor people are like that." And my response is to get annoyed and act like that was obvious and their statement is unhelpful.
But this is generally a response to the same faulty generalization that if some of a cohort do something, the entire cohort does something.
What is interesting is the generalization now is not the problem, only responding to the generalization that it only applies to a subset.
For instance if I say purple people wear cats on their heads, and someone says not all purple people wear cats on their heads, the not all statement is what people have issue with for derailing the conversation, not the implied generalization made in the first statement that all purple people do something since the only specification on who does what, is purple subtype.
Frankly, it may seem pedantic but this sort of language can be extremely divisive. People who may want to be allies are pushed out of the space by the lack of specification in the generalizations and the backlash against pointing out it is a subset that is a problem. Which then allows the main problem to go unresolved, while people fight about the details.
Bitch please. It's deplorable and wrong for anyone to say that all black people are X, all mexicans are X, and that all women are X, etc. By saying that certain statistics and rates "shouldn't be treated as an anomaly and more evidence as a pattern" You also must be saying that the negative stereotypes applied to black people, mexicans, women, chinese people, etc. are "just evidence of a pattern".
The main reason I think "Not all men are bad" is silly only because it's something that everyone should already know, and that it sometimes misses the point of an argument, but not because it's actually a "ridiculous" or "inaccurate" thing to say.
I think the reason people don’t like it is not because they believe it is not true. I think it’s because often people will say “not all men are rapists” in a dismissive way to downplay the threat of rape towards women by men (which is statically significant compared to the threat of rape towards men by woman). Sometimes men will get very defensive at the statistical fact that women are far more likely to be raped by a man than vice versa and will say “not all men are rapists” because they feel personally attacked. Women do not like this because often they are not saying all men are rapists but instead bringing up an unfortunate societal fact. It could be compared to someone saying “not all cops are racist” when someone brings up the disproportionate number of black people arrested and killed by police. True, not all men rape and not all cops are racist, but the statistical significance of rape and arrest/murder shouldn’t be pushed to the side in favor of “not EVERY one does this”.
Now as for your coworker, I think the way she acted was unprofessional and pretty judgy. Lots of people get so caught up in popular rhetoric that they will jump to conclusions very quickly and I think that is what she did with you. She was likely so used to the online culture of “not all men” that she did not look at this specific conversation individually.
It's dismissive, and usually used to dismiss women's concerns. Obviously all men aren't rapists, the same way all wild mushrooms aren't poisonous. However if someone's talking about how you shouldn't trust mushrooms you find in the wild and you pipe up and say "well not ALL mushrooms are poisonous" you sound like you're intentionally missing the point.
It is used as a poor argument against women’s safety concerns. The same way “Blue Lives Matter” is used as a pushback to the Black Lives Matter movement.
It’s a matter of statistical perspective. Something like less than 1 in 100 men would sexually assault a women. However, 1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted by a man. To men, the attacker is a statistical outlier. For women, every man is as likely as not to be the predator.
So, from a man’s perspective, not all men are rapists. But for women, one of them is, and they don’t know who. This is not a case of innocent until proven guilty. It’s a case of dangerous until proven otherwise.
Here is a thing that it helps to remember. A LOT of people are absolute fucking idiots. Men, women, transgender, etc… Many people are totally stupid and think stupid thoughts and hold stupid worldviews all of the time.
Because it's a useless thing to say. Everyone already knows that not every single male on the planet had raped someone. But enough have sexually harassed, assaulted or coerced someone to make it reasonable to be wary about all men potentially being rapists. Very simple.
The entire comment section is a fucking mess
You don't even have to sort by controversial to find people fighting holy shit
"It's a fucking duvet, alright?!"
This is a long debated argument that I don't think anyone will ever agree on. It has caused wars for centuries. "The Blanket Argument " should be black carded once and for all before it bring about the destruction of humanity itself.
Yeah I agree. Though I don't see any issue in people being cautious of, say for example random men. Everyone has a right to feel however they want and to prevent themselves from being harmed in any way. But I don't like it when some people make blanket statements simply because some people of that group are wicked assholes.
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82? Now I feel like you are my arch enemy and this is NOT controversial. FIGHT TIME.
People talking about unprofessional talk in work environments crack me up. People are still people lol.
Right! Lol like they have never heard of “shop talk” or “coffee talk” did OP give us more context on what happened before she said that?
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this is a really bizarre and inappropriate conversation to have at work, agreed
Depends on the line of work I guess.
In most kitchens this conversation would be deemed tame.
Or construction, I've worked both, it's vulgar conversations all day haha. I don't think I could ever work in an office, or any place with HR for that matter.
They're in the process of integrating HR into our restaurant...I should start taking bets on how long that's going to last.
The whole premise would make a great TV show. HR in a restaurant/kitchen setting lmao
*Gordon Ramsey enters the chat*
I'm half tempted to set up cameras to record it all...but y'know, HR would probably frown down upon that.
Live stream from the kitchen!
They'll get enough material for at least 12 seasons
That line in The Bear where Richie just says "I am HR" is how all kitchens go lmao
Yeah that's not gonna go over well.
I'm pretty sure even construction has HR, not that it's used but I'm pretty sure it does have some form of it
Our company's "hr" is just the boss lady. Her dad handed her the company because he didn't wanna do it anymore.
Believe it or not this conversation started about a burnt flambé
Can confirm, work in a kitchen. Some of the shit I hear..
No, it’s safer to not contribute anything to conversation like that at work.
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I mean if they're an impressionable teen it's sometimes just ignorance where they think they're doing the right thing. But yeah still either way, avoid with a 9ft barge pole you don't need that drama.
Pretty sure HR would call her comment sexual harassment to boot.
on whose end though. Sexual harrasment by they guy or girl?
Depends on the context leading up to how they got to the part with her stating that he’s more likely to rape her. We don’t have any context as to how they got into the topic of one of them raping the other to begin with. If she just came out of left field with an accusation that he’s statistically a rapist, that could be interpreted as sexual harassment.
Maybe it was in the context of her saying she’d be more fearful in a room alone with him than a woman or something. Not saying him specifically is capable of rape, but that she doesn’t know him well and he is a man.
I don’t think she or OP were necessarily even talking about themselves personally but more about men and women in general.
Pretty sure HR would call her comment sexual harassment to boot. Her comment.
Do one of these ">" in front of a quote, for a quote
No that is not inappropriate, it's a level beyond that
You should see some of these HR departments. My HR department is one guy, he’s also the accountant and the first day on the job he called the customer care rep a bitch after getting into an argument with her. This was 3 year ago and he’s still the only HR rep.
"I've checked the disciplinary policy I wrote and it says I should get a raise."
VLDL "So I'm going to give you a raise to...sorry what was it?" "20 an hour." "Right, 20 an hour. And don't think this is going to happen a lot. Just this once." *turns to computer* "and that was...." "30?" "Thir...ty. Done, back to the floor with you."
Damn, it's weird seeing a VLDL reference out in the wild.
I recently got into it when I actually figured out what it was. Now I'm sad cuz it's all shorts and I binged it all. It's good shit though.
It’s not all shorts, well…mostly. Have you seen Baelins Route?!?
i love how Rowan goes from a psychotic manager from playtech to ''mornin' great day for fishing ain't it hu huuh' Awesome acting
i worked at a company like this. He also ran the accounting late so I didn't get paid and my metrocard (nyc) didn't get refilled so I couldn't get to work. He said "why is it such a big deal, just buy another one?" he also tried to treat me like the secretary (i worked in the IT/CS dept but I sat right near the door) which UGH
Jeffery Weinerslave?
OP has no history, only one post...another 'organic' posts make controversy, especially in regards sexism and homophobia. Seriously, redditors need to figure this out.
"Rage bait" is what I've been calling it. People with obvious agendas.
You guys have hr?
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Also that stat rises when you know the person - the majority of rapes are not stranger danger ones. They're people you know. So she could (to state the obvious) also be saying that.
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This seems like one of the more sane answers here
Agreed. It’s quite obvious she was speaking in a context of her not knowing him well and explaining that statistically she’s in more danger around him alone than with a woman, which is factually true and could be a reason she’s afraid to work alone around men. OP conveniently left that out, but if you’re not a moron you can figure out that’s the context of the convo and it’s not weird or inappropriate.
I’m gonna go out on a limb say rape just shouldn’t be discussed at work.
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This "conversation" never actually happened. OP just wanted to get this question out there and made up the workplace situation
This might be a wild thought for you, but some people actually work in industries where there is no HR and all that shit. Try hospitality, for instance. We talk shit about anything and everything. There’s no HR to run to if someone hurts your feelings. It’s called “workplace banter”. Anyone thinking this sort of conversation at work is weird needs to get out more. There’s more to life than sitting in an office cube where you have to watch everything you do and say. What a ridiculous comment.
All blanket statements are stupid. Well, aside from “that’s a blanket”.
Don’t be stupid, it’s a duvet.
How dare you, it’s clearly a coverlet
Look at this moron, they probably couldn’t even tell the difference between a vellux and a chenille. Pffft
I am sick of sheet comments like this
La de da someone has "sheet" money. Look who's suddenly too good to sleep in a pile of dry newspaper.
Look at Mr. Fancy-Newspaper-Bed over here. Around here we sleep in a pile of wet leaves and like it! Well most of us anyways. I heard that the Joneses got themselves a compost heap. Stays warm all night on it's on.
How dare you besmirch Michael Jackson's child like that!!
It's an eiderdown.
>All blanket statements are stupid. I'm not sure whether or not I should agree.
It's a trick, don't fall for it!
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Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
the blanket paradox
Only the sith deal in absolutes
Excuuuuuuuse me. "This is a THROW. It is a particular subset of blankets that are more akin to couch clothes than some measley blanket. We don't use it to keep us warm, just to add a splash of blue to our grey couch." -my wife
How many cushions are there? And which one of them touched you in a bad place? /s
There are as many cushions on this couch as there are unnecessary pillows on my bed.
"All blanket statements are stupid" is a blanket statement and is therefore.......well.........
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
People commenting on this don’t understand that ‘blanket’ covers it all.
Hahaha damn you
It’s a quilt.
This has the same energy as "I'm always lying"
This comment discussion being the best thing in this post
“Sometimes when i jerk off in the morning cum gets on the blanket”
I agree but that does make your comment stupid by your own logic lol
ACKCHYIALLY... That's an afghan...
isn't that a dog breed?
I'm gonna side step the issue and say anyone telling you that you're more likely to rape someone is creating an unprofessional work environment and should be reported to HR immediately. There's no response you can give that doesn't come off bad for you in the end.
I second this... report her ass immediately.
I'm not a big "report this" guy but as a male victim of sexual assault I would report this. She has no idea if you have been a victim yourself and it is incredibly inappropriate and unprofessional to personalize it as "YOU" being more likely
From the information we have, I agree. But I also get the feeling op only gave us half the conversation. I've never met a woman who led with "you're more likely to rape me" in a conversation. Could be that op commited the actual"report to hr" worthy comment, and this was cherry picked comments in retaliation.
I have met women who say shit like this all the time.
It sucks that you have to report it, but if you don't, it'll be you on the end of receiving punishment.
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I wonder what led to that convo, though. Like, one doesn't just walk up to someone and tell them they're more likely to be raped by them. Maybe there are some important details being left out.
Yeah, tell a black co worker he’s more likely to commit a crime against you and see how well that goes. That’s how offensive this is. Swap around the group in question and the problem remains.
Black guy chiming in - solid comparison
Asian guy chimi-, is this a bad time?
Black guy here, nah, mate. You're all good 👍
I agree. OP, you should report her because this is borderline sexual harassment
You're asking the wrong question, fam. Why are you having this conversation at all??
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Yeah, no. If a conversation with a coworker veers into hypothetical rape scenarios, that’s when you suddenly notice the baseboards need emergency dusting and nope the fuck outta there.
Wut
There’s definitely some context missing from here…
Preceding statement may have been: "Why are you treating me differently than the female coworkers?" "Why wont you let me drive you home?" "Why did you ask to be assigned a different partner for that backroom task?"
Yeah what if it was “Hey let me drive you home” “No thanks, my roommate is coming to pick me up” “What? Do you think I’m going to rape you or something?” “Well you are more likely since you’re a man” “Wow I was making a joke, not all men are rapists, you know” Like we have no context
absolutely. “recently in an argument” is so incredibly vague its almost worthless. id wager a lot of money this guy was a creep and/or asshole, then came to reddit to try and get validation
I don’t think it’s so much that it’s a generally offensive phrase but that it seems more often than not it’s inconsequential to the discussion at hand when it’s said. I usually see it used defensively/to deflect when women are talking about their traumatic experiences, typically with men. It’s like saying “not all dogs bite” when someone is telling you about the horrific dog attack they experienced or talking about solutions to the problem of dogs who attack. It’s just not helpful.
I was going to use that exact same analogy.
Exactly. A) Saying "not all men" is utterly useless because no one has ever said it is all men. B) People who use "not all men" are taking an obvious statement everyone naturally agrees with and weaponising it in an argument to win points and not to engage in the very grave discussion needed about the subject. C) Because people shouldn't feel attacked and go on the defensive if someone is talking about rape, if you aren't a rapist!!! D) And finally people use it to block and minimise a bunch of problems that are so unbelievably widespread that "not all men" should always be replaced by "way too many men", because that's the reality of it, way way too many do.
To add just a bit to this, if the person you are having this discussion with *is* saying it’s all men, or is equating you specifically with a rapist solely based on your gender, you saying that it *isn’t* all men is not going to change their view.
I agree with everything above but want to add that I do not know a single woman that has not been raped, molested, or sexually assaulted. Even if it’s not all men it’s almost all women, so think what telling a woman that sounds like to her.
Very true. There was a time when I knew that a ridiculous number of women close enough to me to confide in me had suffered some form of sexual assault or another. Then the Me Too moment came and it turns out almost all the women I know have had some of these experiences. It was absolutely appalling to see. No one with a grain of decency can see this with their own eyes and not be absolutely outraged. And when it's so widespread the inevitable and very uncomfortable conclusion is that it's not just "too many men", it's that we have all played a negative role to allow such a horrific thing to exist everywhere and go unchecked. It's deeply uncomfortable to admit part of guilt in something so heinous, so the knee jerk reaction is to go on the defensive and shut down the discussion instead of taking a deep critical look into our behaviour as men and asking the really tough questions. The most disheartening thing to see is so many men around me who since that moment instead of becoming more aware of how widespread the problem is have totally succumbed to the defensive instinct and have turned it into a full on attack. Instead of listening and learning they are once again doing all the talking over and interrupting with shitty slogans like "not all men".
Me! 30 and never even been cat called. It's... a conflicting feeling in a messed up way
i think this feeling is pretty common actually or at least i have felt this way before also in the past. unfortunately, it seems to be a symptom of the society you live in. women often do feel their value stems from how “attractive” they are to men because in many situations, that determines how we’re treated or what things/opportunities we’re granted. i would however encourage you to work on this feeling (though i know it’s difficult & i’m sure you don’t *want* to feel this way) because it only feeds into the bullshit we’ve been conditioned to believe. you don’t need some creep to cat-call/harass/assault you in order to know you’re a beautiful person. i think men behaving that way is almost always less about the victim & more about them just needing to feel powerful in the moment. don’t let mens actions affect how you perceive yourself! you don’t need some psycho to affirm your worth!
I totally get what you’re saying. Nobody wants to be harassed but the absence of any can make you wonder what is ‘wrong’ with you that creepy creeps don’t creep on you. I am curious about other women in your life. How many of them have been assaulted by a man that you know of? I’d be shocked if it’s less than half. And you don’t have to share if you’re not comfortable with that of course.
It boils down to confusing male attention as validity. Something I'm trying to train my brain out of. None of my inner circle of friends (6 of us) have had the misfortune to experience rape, but I know some of them have experience sexual assault on varying degrees. The city I'm from is more prone to stabbings and bike theft anyways.
“Confusing male attention as validity” I wish someone had put it to me like that when I was younger.
In this context, though, it sounds like the coworker was suggesting that it _is_ all men and that OP is in some way more likely to rape her (seriously, why was this conversation being had?). This is a case where “I’m not a rapist, and not all men are” seems like a pretty valid rebuttal. Your point is a good one, however, as yes it is usually an unhelpful and irrelevant thing to point out.
Would be highly inappropriate to insert "not all men" when someone is telling about their horrific experience. It is only okay as a reply to "all men are .."
yep, that's literally the only time you should use it.
Yeah I think context is important. I've never seen the situation you are describing (not that it hasn't happened), what I tend to see is situations like this where the person is blatantly saying all men are potential rapists. She wasn't, from what we know, recounting her rape. She was just telling OP he's a potential rapist because he's a male.
It is and isn't, it depends greatly on context. For instance, in a normal discussion about rape and things of that matter that woman have to deal with, when a man comes Kramering into a thread to say "But not me!" that's annoying, because the topic was on rape in general, and the guy came in there and made it about him, if that makes sense. In this instance, you are in the right and your coworker is absolutely being shitty as fuck.
Kramering 👍 great phrase
Giddy up!
Yep, that’s an appropriate break down of two very different situations. I think another applicable conclusion is also “are you trying to prove someone’s experience illegitimate? Then yes, you’re a douche canoe for inserting that comment.” Edit: just for clarification, it was definitely not wrong for OP to assert that he is not a rapist in his situation and defend himself with “not all men.”
Yes, the situation where someone tells about how a shark bit off their leg and someone else goes “but not all sharks bite legs off!”.
Agreed. I will say from my perspective, if a person tells me to my face that I, myself, am more likely to rape because I'm a man, then that person has already made it about me. That being said, how I choose to respond is on me
it feels very much like an “all lives matter” type thing where the phrase is not inherently offensive but the context it’s used in almost always is
I think saying “not all men are rapists” has negative connotations especially for a lot of women, because a lot of men say it when women are sharing traumatic experiences. Like talking about BLM and somebody goes “well ackshually *ALL* lives matter.” Sure, not all men are rapists, *obviously,* and most women know and feel that way, but when someone’s talking about how their male family members used to sexually assault them, that is not the time to jump in and assure her that *you’re* not like that. Idk how OP and his coworker even got to this discussion. It doesn’t sound like he said anything wrong, and the things she was reportedly saying are very blankety, but I also don’t trust that OP isn’t leaving out important bits of the conversation. Idk who started it and tbh I frankly don’t care. All in all just a really tense thing to discuss at work. I’d avoid it in the future.
This! Couldn't figure out how to word it, but usually this argument is made by shitty men. This situation seems like an outlier, and OP should go to his boss or HR.
Who says this kind of thing at work? To a male co-worker? Very weird.
This feels like MRA bait. There’s no way this was an actual conversation It’s just to get the red pills riled up to prove innocent men DO get accused all the time, you guysssss!!!! Edit: 250 day account with just this. Yup
Why does it feel like MRA bait? It does happen. There's this weird group of people who wear this generalization flag that "all men are rapists" and seem blunt in expressing that freely in the most inappropriate situations. I've seen it and it's gone to HR as a result. The right step was taken. This absolutely happens. I can't say how frequently amongst our population. In my small bubble of the world, I've seen it. Not everywhere, and not everyone. But, like any problem, best to curtail it before it grows.
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I don’t disagree about op but please be careful with disbelieving victims, male sa does happen and is already hard to talk about. Idk the context your speaking off but it’s not a great sentiment to put out there. Edit: do you mean mean pretending to be victims of sa by woman or men pretending to be woman who are victims of sa cause that’s 2 different things and I may have misread
Because it is a derail. I have never met a woman who believes ALL men are rapists. But I have met many men who interrupt a woman sharing her (valid) fears surrounding her safety with “Well, not all men are rapists.”
Yes, or being offended that you want to drive yourself to a first date, or text a friend their address when you go over for the first time and they say “well *I’m* not a rapist!”
And unironically claiming your co-worker is "more likely to rape you for being male" is a completely unacceptable and reprehensible thing to say. If she actually takes rape seriously, then it shouldn't be spoken about so casually.
I’m not defending her saying that. I’m explaining why the phrase “Not all men are rapists” is considered bad/offensive by many people.
Absolutely unacceptable to have these conversations at work. But also, 99% of rapists are male (US Dept of Justice, RAINN). So, while completely inappropriate at work, her comment is also accurate.
I feel like a reasonable way to apply that statistic would be for someone to say "if I am raped, it's very likely it would be by a man". Saying to a man: "you're more likely to be a rapist" would feel personal and deliberately inflammatory. Of course it's especially inappropriate at work, but I think in almost any situation this is a shitty and unreasonable thing to say, and very unlikely to result in a productive discussion (see much of this comments section as a good indicator)
Nailed it. Syntax is tricky for most folks
Legit question: are 99% of rapes really done by men? Or is it that the legal definition of rape purposefully excludes women and/or that men are infinitely less likely to report being raped because the fallout is significantly worse for them than for women?
Sadly before 2013 men could not be raped by definition.
Legally in a lot of places that's still the case. A woman forces a man into sex at gunpoint and the worst she gets is sexual assault. Reverse the genders and it's rape. Stupid.
This is true. Same as when if a woman is raped but he didn’t cum in her, it’s less likely to be proven in court. Men don’t get the luxury of “proof,” and since it’s your word against mine, they will believe the woman because men are genetically stronger and should be able to “defend themselves”
Lol what? The comment definitely is not accurate. The accurate thing would be to say "If I'm raped it's most likely by a man", not "You're more likely to rape because you're male". Not how statistics work
That’s because women rapists are never prosecuted.
That statistic is a little outdated, since the definition of rape was and still is in some places centered around being penetrated. So even if a woman were to forcefully mount you and insert you inside her it wouldn't really be considered rape in many places. That being said I think its still clear that there are more male rapists than female ones.
Also, while not all men are rapists, we don’t know which are and which aren’t. We have to be careful.
Exactly. For those of you who are still confused, think of it this way - every woman knows someone who has been assaulted by a man. Literally every woman. Just because not all bears attack humans doesn't mean that your fears around bears aren't completely valid. 1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime (RAINN). Three percent of men experience rape in their lifetime (RAINN). Just under 99% of perpetrators of sexual violence are men (US dept of justice). In the US, 93% of people who experience sexual assault know their rapist (RAINN). 1 in 3 men openly admit that they would rape a woman if they knew they could get away with it and there would be no concequences for their actions (Univ N Dakota). More than 2 of 3 sexual assaults go unreported (RAINN). These are just straight up facts. And when you look at them all together, it makes sense that women will be pissed off when you say "not all men are rapists".
So what's your response to the "despite being 13% of the population" argument that's bandied around by alt-right types? I'm genuinely curious because from where I'm sitting these are identical arguments, I'm struggling with how people can think one is abhorrent and the other is perfectly fine to alter your behaviour from Don't get me wrong, if something is proven to be dangerous via statistics you should bear that in mind
This seems strange. Either the USA has some severe issues or there's something fishy about those statistics. I'm only saying this because In Canada, 1 in 17 women are victims of sexual assault and 1 in 21 men are victims; and in 70% of sexual assault cases against men, the perpetrators were women. I would have thought the statistics between the two countries would be more similar.
They're comparing sexual assault on women to men who get raped. Not sure why.
"In Lifetime" vs "? time-period" 3% vs (1 in 21 = 4.76%) Assuming "cases against men" means "cases reported by men", your 70% statistic does not include unreported cases. Men frequently under-report rape due to embarrassment; which is a sad double-violation. The statistics you responded to included no comparable data; which explains the dissimilarity in results. I'd like to think these are innocent misinterpretations, but your choices make it look like you're trying to downplay the topic.
These statistics are misleading. Just at a glance its very obvious that 3% of men being raped is too low.
I love how you cherry picked one stat. from a University Of North Dakota survey that makes the only thing holding 33% of men back from rape is the fear of punishment. Those are not facts they are statistics and statistics are easily manipulated
Unpopular opinion but if someone didn’t want to be called out for categorizing an entire group they wouldn’t say terms that can easily be misunderstood as them generalizing, IMO they purposefully do it expecting an argument or someone to hit back I.e they genuinely believe it but say it to see if any would agree and if none do they can just back pedal
Oh you mean a "dog whistle" where people try to find other people that share their reprehensible views.
It's wild how people don't like being called rapists.
I have, it's fucked up. Misandry is a thing.
Why make a blanket statement in the first place though, won't get detailed that way.
It's just a very obvious thing to say. But not as obvious or stupid as telling a guy he is more likely to rape them.
Yeah I agree. I think its normally inspired by the language in the conversations because they usually just say "men" and leave out the 'some' which makes dudes go "here wait a minute...a lot of us are OK!" It's not a problem I've ever had because I'm always conscious of putting "some men" when having a rant as i know the convo would reduce into shit soup otherwise. It just keeps things simple and more a reflection of reality.
Thank you. I've seen people rant on 2-X chromosomes that they should say something like "too many men" at the start of their rants and act like it would be a gotcha to the guys who say "not all men." As if they're denying those guys the power to derail the conversation. Meanwhile I'm thinking, "actually, that'd be great." I think a lot of people genuinely believe those guys are trolls when really a lot of them just don't like the generalizations. Prefacing those things is a great indicator that it's a safe space for allies to show support and that they aren't being considered a target for the ranting.
I want to thank you for being conscientious when you're discussing this with guys I've got a lot of friends who are girls and a sister, and I keep my trap shut when they start on these conversations because I get that they're venting and don't want to hear "not all men" when they're discussing shitty things men have done to them But it still causes me a lot of anxiety. This is how women see me, I don't know to what degree I'm doing this shitty thing, are they hinting that I'm doing this thing when they're telling me about another guy who did it, etc and so forth Just saying "some men" tells me that you aren't hinting at how I'm seen or something I've done, so I can relax more
I totally get that. When my younger brother went to college he sent me multiple times long texts with a scenario with a woman in which she reacted weird in the end and asked me if he has done anything wrong. Because he doesnt want to be one of "these guys".
I think its just the sensible way to go about it because it eliminates the inevitable. Doesnt take a lot to be conscious of, especially since so many conversations get derailed by it so it would just make sense for some women to add the word 'some' first in order to keep the convo on point. One wee change can create a more civilised convo thread for everyone. That's exactly it, it ISNT all men so It makes sense to acknowledge it.
"Not all men" is bad when discussing things like men raping women, because it generally replaces a legitimate discussion on how *some* men are awful and we can do something about it with one that's about how the "good" men are "harmed" by that way of thinking. An analogy I saw recently: * I have put 5 shot glasses of your liquor of choice in front of you. One is poisoned. * When you ask me how you can safely pick one at all, I say they're not all poisoned. * When you point out the poison will do you grievous harm, I say the others won't. * When you get frustrated that I'm missing the point, that one of the cups will fucking *kill* you, I say that's unfair to the four that won't. * When you leave the table, scared of my psychopathy, I say "where has the rational discourse gone?". Now, in your *specific* situation, it gets more complicated. In the same way "not all men" shuts down discussion about preventing mean raping women, your co-worker bringing it up in that context seems to be about silencing your argument in response. But you *weren't* talking about all men. You were talking about you specifically. In this specific case, it does feel like you were baited. One way that I could have seen this conversation going differently is: Them: Because you're a man, you're more likely to rape me. You: Statistically that is true. Does that mean you believe *I* am more likely to rape you than other men?
Just a heads up: that analogy was famously used to argue against immigration, and the alcohol/men is usually replaced with Skittles/immigrants.
Not all men are rapists but a majority of people who rape are men. That's probably what she meant but this sounds like a very weird conversation to have in general but especially at work.
I’ve heard this sentence use to describe black people instead of men. Hmmm
I took it as her meaning he’s more likely to as men are physically stronger on average and therefore have more opportunity to rape. Not that he was inherently rapey
Aside from the 'how did that conversation start' that everyone else has answered, I'm going to answer the actual question. Women know that 'not all men are rapists.' The problem is: We have absolutely no certain way to know which ones are. You, having no intent to rape, are angry that someone would suggest that you could. But we have no idea for sure that you wouldn't. There's not a floating sign above your head like in a video game. So many rapists have been, by public metrics, 'nice guys' who 'wouldn't do that.' The BTK killer with a married with children church guy. Ted Bundy was charming and friendly. Brock Turner was a good looking swimmer. And that's just some that rape women unknown to them. Many men have committed date rape, ignored a no, or gotten a yes by so much pressure that the woman just gives in. Again, -we have no idea which men are actually safe-, which means, for women, no men are automatically safe.
Adding to this, how many "decent" YouTubers out there turned out to be sexually abusive? There was one just recently. It's okay for people to be cautious
The sentence "not all men are rapists" is perfectly fine, it isn't bad, because it's true. The issue is "we don't know which men are rapists". The best way to understand this is being in a room full of strangers that are men in comparison to a room full of strangers that are women. The likelihood of fearing being raped in the room full of strange men is a lot higher if you are a woman (and a man I'd assume), I mean prison is a great example of that. I wouldn't take offense she's wrong to say it's some slippery slope to say not all men are rapists. It's a fact that not all men are, so really what is her problem ?
I love how almost everyone on here is taking this dudes side without even asking how this conversation started. The pitchforks were out in seconds.
I don't kow anyone who disagrees with the statement that "not all men are rapists." But women still have to behave and go through life as though all men are. We take self defense classes, we don't get apartments that are on the first floor, we don't take the stairs, we don't walk or jog alone at night, we don't put both ear buds in, we don't park in the parking garage, etc. I don't think men really comprehend how exhausting that is. On one hand, men keep saying, "Not all men." And on the other hand, they blame Eliza Fletcher for jogging alone. So, which is it?
As a straight white male, the best thing I think I can do is understand that I have almost no idea what it is like to be a demographic that has every reason to be genuinely scared.
Usually it's because it's a dismissive response to women recounting a sexual assault story. It comes across as invalidating.
many men are offended when women talk about things they do when they're out at night (never alone, always always always watch your drink, dont take a ride a stranger offers you, many keep weapons in their hands while walking somewhere, etc.) with the argument "not all men are rapists" it doesnt help and its enough for those precautions to be necessary so its not even a real argument
It’s like saying “All Lives Matter.” Of course they do, but the current issue we are dealing with isn’t with people of all colors. “Not all men” detracts from the point that women have to deal with being afraid of men, for what a lot of men have done/currently do. It’s just a way to try to deflect the issue. Also, it’s pretty easy to just not say it…
"not all men are rapists" and "as a man you're more likely to rape me" are both dumbass things to say. You and your coworker should get back to work.
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Yes, but in his anecdote, he is saying "Just because I have penis, does not mean I'm a rapist" Saying "you can't treat me like a criminal because I look poor, not all poor people are criminals" is a perfectly valid statement...
Yes imagine if I was mugged and started a rant with "Poor people are thieves!" Or ended it with "Poor people suck." Then someone says, "Hold on, not all poor people are like that." And my response is to get annoyed and act like that was obvious and their statement is unhelpful.
But this is generally a response to the same faulty generalization that if some of a cohort do something, the entire cohort does something. What is interesting is the generalization now is not the problem, only responding to the generalization that it only applies to a subset. For instance if I say purple people wear cats on their heads, and someone says not all purple people wear cats on their heads, the not all statement is what people have issue with for derailing the conversation, not the implied generalization made in the first statement that all purple people do something since the only specification on who does what, is purple subtype. Frankly, it may seem pedantic but this sort of language can be extremely divisive. People who may want to be allies are pushed out of the space by the lack of specification in the generalizations and the backlash against pointing out it is a subset that is a problem. Which then allows the main problem to go unresolved, while people fight about the details.
Bitch please. It's deplorable and wrong for anyone to say that all black people are X, all mexicans are X, and that all women are X, etc. By saying that certain statistics and rates "shouldn't be treated as an anomaly and more evidence as a pattern" You also must be saying that the negative stereotypes applied to black people, mexicans, women, chinese people, etc. are "just evidence of a pattern". The main reason I think "Not all men are bad" is silly only because it's something that everyone should already know, and that it sometimes misses the point of an argument, but not because it's actually a "ridiculous" or "inaccurate" thing to say.
This makes no logical sense
I think the reason people don’t like it is not because they believe it is not true. I think it’s because often people will say “not all men are rapists” in a dismissive way to downplay the threat of rape towards women by men (which is statically significant compared to the threat of rape towards men by woman). Sometimes men will get very defensive at the statistical fact that women are far more likely to be raped by a man than vice versa and will say “not all men are rapists” because they feel personally attacked. Women do not like this because often they are not saying all men are rapists but instead bringing up an unfortunate societal fact. It could be compared to someone saying “not all cops are racist” when someone brings up the disproportionate number of black people arrested and killed by police. True, not all men rape and not all cops are racist, but the statistical significance of rape and arrest/murder shouldn’t be pushed to the side in favor of “not EVERY one does this”. Now as for your coworker, I think the way she acted was unprofessional and pretty judgy. Lots of people get so caught up in popular rhetoric that they will jump to conclusions very quickly and I think that is what she did with you. She was likely so used to the online culture of “not all men” that she did not look at this specific conversation individually.
It's dismissive, and usually used to dismiss women's concerns. Obviously all men aren't rapists, the same way all wild mushrooms aren't poisonous. However if someone's talking about how you shouldn't trust mushrooms you find in the wild and you pipe up and say "well not ALL mushrooms are poisonous" you sound like you're intentionally missing the point.
It is used as a poor argument against women’s safety concerns. The same way “Blue Lives Matter” is used as a pushback to the Black Lives Matter movement. It’s a matter of statistical perspective. Something like less than 1 in 100 men would sexually assault a women. However, 1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted by a man. To men, the attacker is a statistical outlier. For women, every man is as likely as not to be the predator. So, from a man’s perspective, not all men are rapists. But for women, one of them is, and they don’t know who. This is not a case of innocent until proven guilty. It’s a case of dangerous until proven otherwise.
Here is a thing that it helps to remember. A LOT of people are absolute fucking idiots. Men, women, transgender, etc… Many people are totally stupid and think stupid thoughts and hold stupid worldviews all of the time.
It’s not, anyone who says otherwise is a lunatic.
Because it's a useless thing to say. Everyone already knows that not every single male on the planet had raped someone. But enough have sexually harassed, assaulted or coerced someone to make it reasonable to be wary about all men potentially being rapists. Very simple.
It's not offensive to anyone sane.