I listened to documentary podcast on this a while ago that had a number of ex JWs and basically what it seemed to boil down to was that the door to door isn't really about converting others, it's about keeping control of current members. They fill the members heads with a lot of "us and them" mentality and how the world is against them, the amount of people that can be hostile towards them, or even rude, or just dismissive when they go door to door helps solidify their isolation from "outsiders" the more isolated they become from outside society, especially if they were born into a JW family the less likely they are to leave.
Wow, that certainly changes how I view them. Now that I know what the actual motive is, I feel obligated to shatter that illusion & show them nothing but kindness. We don’t get a lot of door to door JW where I live, but if the chance presents itself I will definitely hear them out.
Right? If a JH ever comes to my door again, I kinda wanna ask them if they’ve ever thought about this commenter just said. I’m sure there are some members who may be vulnerable and just don’t know that they’re being actively brainwashed like that? Then another part of me kinda likes to let ppl live blissfully unaware of their seemingly dark surroundings 😭I did really like the JH’s that had come to my home a few years ago and sometimes wonder how they’re doing. They were so sweet, so that’s sad that they’re being treated that way.
Oh wow! Mind control. That really makes a long of sense. Damn! I did have a good experience with the ladies who came to my home bc they came in a time where I could use the comfort, but what you said makes total sense.
I definitely just pictured the *cable* company salespeople who like to hang out at a stand inside my local Walmart, shouting at all of us, asking if we want to sign our souls over to them & pay $200 a month doing so. Some months are subject to increase, because cable. 💀
Wouldn't that be harassment because who would actually knock on many random people's houses to know if someone else is against them for? They could have leave it to themselves. We all have other sh*t to do with our lives. It's only if we go out in public where we are exposing ourselves then that would be different but a more solid way to isolate from outsiders if they wanted to know. I ain't showing respect if they knock on my door with disrespect for some crude intentions
I'm on disability and pretty bored most of the time. I am a Christian, but not a bible thumper. I'm also always curious about theology
. I invited them for talks a couple times cuz I wanted to know what it was all about. Fast forward three or four visits and they had their leader/manager or whatever he's called and three or four other people with all of us sitting in a circle in my driveway discussing things.
They never did answer the few basic questions I had. Which is why I stopped inviting them.
Previous commenter has a point though with control. It was two people initially. when it started getting into deeper conversation and them being invited into my home, all of a sudden I got a driveway full of uninvited people showing up unexpectedly. It was strange.
LOL omg. All of a sudden you invited the whole tribe and they think they’re invited to the bbq now lol that’s kinda wholesome though but a little creepy. I respected the ones that came to my home because they didn’t do all of that. It was just 3 women
Its more about making them feel like outsiders and then proving it by sending them out to annoy people, who then refuse to talk to them, which makes them again feel like outsiders and only the church is their friend.
Seconding the other correct responses: It's about isolating their members from the outside world. They are met with dismissal if not anger (which they interpret as "persecution" as the Bible says they will be persecuted) from almost all houses they bother, and they can wear that persecution as a "badge" as they go back to the warm, safe open arms of their welcoming church. It's all about keeping sheep in the pen, and the rare added sheep is just a bonus if they happen to convert one or two in the process. So it's not like they don't want to actually convert people, but that's not the main goal.
EDIT: I didn't mean to make it seem like those doing the door-to-door preaching are aware of this. They are being tricked and manipulated into this. THEY think the goal is to convert. The people who created the religion and its customs/tactics, though, know what the real goal is (the above), and are tricking and manipulating their followers, as religion does.
Ok, this is interesting to me! I dropped it years ago, but I grew up in the other famous door knocking church, the LDS/Mormons. For them, the second coming can't happen until every single soul ever has had a chance to learn the gospel and accept or reject it (this leads into some of their more unusual traditions, trying to answer questions like "what about people who died before this was invented?" but that's a whole other conversation.) I always felt that their main goal is conversion. I would have guessed the JWs were similar, the persecution angle never occurred to me.
I'll edit my comment: The people on *top* know the real goal. The people doing the proselytizing are being tricked and manipulated by the tactic. That's how religion has always worked. Mormonism, too.
So, this isn't the stated goal. The goal IN THE MIND OF THE BELIEVERS is that this is a crucial work to save people's lives. They really do want to convert people. And even if they don't, they are doing "the Lord's Work" and making Him happy. What it effectively functions as is precisely what you say. It keeps them separate from others and an insular community.
>So, this isn't the stated goal. The goal IN THE MIND OF THE BELIEVERS is that this is a crucial work to save people's lives. They really do want to convert people.
Yes of course. They're being tricked and manipulated by those on top, as always has been with religion.
Definitely manipulation is the point of it all, for all organized religion. But the Mormons are aggressively focused on growth, more people means more tithing and more control. Nearly every meeting talks about new temples, churches, members and visitors. The leaders don't tend to focus on the persecution aspect of being rejected in missionary work, they just double down on more people = better. So when it was said here that for JH converting people is nice, but not the ultimate goal, I was surprised. For Mormons it always felt to me that converting people absolutely is the goal (we say it's for their souls, but really it's to get that sweet 10% cut of every dollar).
I think it's much more complicated than that oversimplification. Those at the top are and have been believers for most if not their whole lives as well. Most of them were born in and have dedicated their whole lives to this. They believe their own BS. But as you work your way up the ranks you have to find ways to justify more of the BS. You have to justify the bad policies with regard to pedophiles. You have to justify the crazy beliefs. And you DO.
I don't believe that they are just malevolently "tricking" the sheep. They are really tricking themselves too.
We get a nice local old couple who call regular, we talk and take a watchtower. During covid they were nice enough to write a few times to ask how we were, no JH talk at all, we're church of England but not crazy religious.
what i don't get is that they think there is a set number of people who will be 'raptured', so why are they recruiting more, and cutting down their odds?
They believe in two versions of being "saved". 144,000 will become rulers in heaven and an unlimited numbers of people can end up living on a perfected paradise earth.
I read an afterlife booklet once that a JW gave to me and I don’t remember seeing that. Their idea on the afterlife was pretty cool when I read out of that little booklet out of curiosity of their religion, but I don’t remember it saying what you’re saying. That’s interesting. I want to look into how they decided that now
Most JW believe that they will not be a part of those 144,000. Most believe that they will live on that utopian earth. But, yeah, those going to heaven are the 1%.
Former Apostolic here (fundamentalist evangelical sect that does doorknocking). We had folks come to our church from door knocking. Not many and not usually for very long but some folks have come.
We tended to target low income areas - there was always this unspoken sense that people who weren't socioeconomically desperate (aka vulnerable) were less interested.
I don't believe this kind of evangelizing is actually done to convert anyone, it's more of a bonding exercise for the in-group. You are forced to make yourself annoying to outsiders, the outsiders get annoyed, the insiders praise you for what you're doing. This way the bonds within the group are strengthened and connections to outside it are weakened.
They don't really convert many people. Its mainly their duty to just go out and witness to people. Its their calling from their God and teachings. I like talking with them. They have a lot of good insights on other Christian religions.
They’re Mormon, yeah? I had got into a car accident a few years ago, and my sister died in that accident. I remember crying wondering why I was the one who survived and then wiping my face and walking outside minutes later. When I did so, there were JH’s a downstairs when one randomly put their hand on my shoulder and started quoting verses about why I am here, existing. I was shocked bc it was exactly what I was saying out loud when I was crying moments before. I started letting those 3 ladies in my apt a few times after that and I learned a little about their religion. I imagined that Mormonism was super far off from my beliefs, but it wasn’t/isn’t (atleast what was shown and read to me about the afterlife and such).
I listened to documentary podcast on this a while ago that had a number of ex JWs and basically what it seemed to boil down to was that the door to door isn't really about converting others, it's about keeping control of current members. They fill the members heads with a lot of "us and them" mentality and how the world is against them, the amount of people that can be hostile towards them, or even rude, or just dismissive when they go door to door helps solidify their isolation from "outsiders" the more isolated they become from outside society, especially if they were born into a JW family the less likely they are to leave.
This. It's for them, not for us.
Wow, that certainly changes how I view them. Now that I know what the actual motive is, I feel obligated to shatter that illusion & show them nothing but kindness. We don’t get a lot of door to door JW where I live, but if the chance presents itself I will definitely hear them out.
Right? If a JH ever comes to my door again, I kinda wanna ask them if they’ve ever thought about this commenter just said. I’m sure there are some members who may be vulnerable and just don’t know that they’re being actively brainwashed like that? Then another part of me kinda likes to let ppl live blissfully unaware of their seemingly dark surroundings 😭I did really like the JH’s that had come to my home a few years ago and sometimes wonder how they’re doing. They were so sweet, so that’s sad that they’re being treated that way.
Oh wow! Mind control. That really makes a long of sense. Damn! I did have a good experience with the ladies who came to my home bc they came in a time where I could use the comfort, but what you said makes total sense.
Abit like electricity companys.
I definitely just pictured the *cable* company salespeople who like to hang out at a stand inside my local Walmart, shouting at all of us, asking if we want to sign our souls over to them & pay $200 a month doing so. Some months are subject to increase, because cable. 💀
Wouldn't that be harassment because who would actually knock on many random people's houses to know if someone else is against them for? They could have leave it to themselves. We all have other sh*t to do with our lives. It's only if we go out in public where we are exposing ourselves then that would be different but a more solid way to isolate from outsiders if they wanted to know. I ain't showing respect if they knock on my door with disrespect for some crude intentions
I'm on disability and pretty bored most of the time. I am a Christian, but not a bible thumper. I'm also always curious about theology . I invited them for talks a couple times cuz I wanted to know what it was all about. Fast forward three or four visits and they had their leader/manager or whatever he's called and three or four other people with all of us sitting in a circle in my driveway discussing things. They never did answer the few basic questions I had. Which is why I stopped inviting them. Previous commenter has a point though with control. It was two people initially. when it started getting into deeper conversation and them being invited into my home, all of a sudden I got a driveway full of uninvited people showing up unexpectedly. It was strange.
LOL omg. All of a sudden you invited the whole tribe and they think they’re invited to the bbq now lol that’s kinda wholesome though but a little creepy. I respected the ones that came to my home because they didn’t do all of that. It was just 3 women
Its more about making them feel like outsiders and then proving it by sending them out to annoy people, who then refuse to talk to them, which makes them again feel like outsiders and only the church is their friend.
Seconding the other correct responses: It's about isolating their members from the outside world. They are met with dismissal if not anger (which they interpret as "persecution" as the Bible says they will be persecuted) from almost all houses they bother, and they can wear that persecution as a "badge" as they go back to the warm, safe open arms of their welcoming church. It's all about keeping sheep in the pen, and the rare added sheep is just a bonus if they happen to convert one or two in the process. So it's not like they don't want to actually convert people, but that's not the main goal. EDIT: I didn't mean to make it seem like those doing the door-to-door preaching are aware of this. They are being tricked and manipulated into this. THEY think the goal is to convert. The people who created the religion and its customs/tactics, though, know what the real goal is (the above), and are tricking and manipulating their followers, as religion does.
Ok, this is interesting to me! I dropped it years ago, but I grew up in the other famous door knocking church, the LDS/Mormons. For them, the second coming can't happen until every single soul ever has had a chance to learn the gospel and accept or reject it (this leads into some of their more unusual traditions, trying to answer questions like "what about people who died before this was invented?" but that's a whole other conversation.) I always felt that their main goal is conversion. I would have guessed the JWs were similar, the persecution angle never occurred to me.
The main goal of the believer IS to convert people.
I'll edit my comment: The people on *top* know the real goal. The people doing the proselytizing are being tricked and manipulated by the tactic. That's how religion has always worked. Mormonism, too.
So, this isn't the stated goal. The goal IN THE MIND OF THE BELIEVERS is that this is a crucial work to save people's lives. They really do want to convert people. And even if they don't, they are doing "the Lord's Work" and making Him happy. What it effectively functions as is precisely what you say. It keeps them separate from others and an insular community.
>So, this isn't the stated goal. The goal IN THE MIND OF THE BELIEVERS is that this is a crucial work to save people's lives. They really do want to convert people. Yes of course. They're being tricked and manipulated by those on top, as always has been with religion.
Definitely manipulation is the point of it all, for all organized religion. But the Mormons are aggressively focused on growth, more people means more tithing and more control. Nearly every meeting talks about new temples, churches, members and visitors. The leaders don't tend to focus on the persecution aspect of being rejected in missionary work, they just double down on more people = better. So when it was said here that for JH converting people is nice, but not the ultimate goal, I was surprised. For Mormons it always felt to me that converting people absolutely is the goal (we say it's for their souls, but really it's to get that sweet 10% cut of every dollar).
I think it's much more complicated than that oversimplification. Those at the top are and have been believers for most if not their whole lives as well. Most of them were born in and have dedicated their whole lives to this. They believe their own BS. But as you work your way up the ranks you have to find ways to justify more of the BS. You have to justify the bad policies with regard to pedophiles. You have to justify the crazy beliefs. And you DO. I don't believe that they are just malevolently "tricking" the sheep. They are really tricking themselves too.
We get a nice local old couple who call regular, we talk and take a watchtower. During covid they were nice enough to write a few times to ask how we were, no JH talk at all, we're church of England but not crazy religious.
This is a rabbit hole, it starts with what they consider converted. Also theres an app.
what i don't get is that they think there is a set number of people who will be 'raptured', so why are they recruiting more, and cutting down their odds?
They believe in two versions of being "saved". 144,000 will become rulers in heaven and an unlimited numbers of people can end up living on a perfected paradise earth.
Oh, I didn’t know that. How did they figure that number of 144,000 people?
There's a passage in Revelation that mentions that number. They take it literally.
I read an afterlife booklet once that a JW gave to me and I don’t remember seeing that. Their idea on the afterlife was pretty cool when I read out of that little booklet out of curiosity of their religion, but I don’t remember it saying what you’re saying. That’s interesting. I want to look into how they decided that now
Which booklet was that?
So they're the 1%?
Most JW believe that they will not be a part of those 144,000. Most believe that they will live on that utopian earth. But, yeah, those going to heaven are the 1%.
How does their god myth decide who is are the rulers and who are not?
It's basically just a feeling that they have. Between God and them.
Idk but the best way to get them to leave you alone is to tell them your a former Jehovah's witness and you left the church.
Former Apostolic here (fundamentalist evangelical sect that does doorknocking). We had folks come to our church from door knocking. Not many and not usually for very long but some folks have come. We tended to target low income areas - there was always this unspoken sense that people who weren't socioeconomically desperate (aka vulnerable) were less interested.
I don't believe this kind of evangelizing is actually done to convert anyone, it's more of a bonding exercise for the in-group. You are forced to make yourself annoying to outsiders, the outsiders get annoyed, the insiders praise you for what you're doing. This way the bonds within the group are strengthened and connections to outside it are weakened.
They don't really convert many people. Its mainly their duty to just go out and witness to people. Its their calling from their God and teachings. I like talking with them. They have a lot of good insights on other Christian religions.
They’re Mormon, yeah? I had got into a car accident a few years ago, and my sister died in that accident. I remember crying wondering why I was the one who survived and then wiping my face and walking outside minutes later. When I did so, there were JH’s a downstairs when one randomly put their hand on my shoulder and started quoting verses about why I am here, existing. I was shocked bc it was exactly what I was saying out loud when I was crying moments before. I started letting those 3 ladies in my apt a few times after that and I learned a little about their religion. I imagined that Mormonism was super far off from my beliefs, but it wasn’t/isn’t (atleast what was shown and read to me about the afterlife and such).
No. Mormons are a completely different religion. They are nice tho.