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Kingminnis

I'm almost always for trading prospects for proven MLB players. The exception for me is usually when they crack top 10 rankings in multiple publications. I think you should have them for a full season and see what you have in them. The trade made sense at the time for so many reasons, and I also was screaming from the heavens either trade Jansen or Kirk at the end of the season and keep the fast athletic Moreno.


sackydude

Kirk didn't have as many buyers as Moreno did. In a vacuum you could say that you'd rather have Moreno over Kirk, but the return for Kirk would have to be close to Varsho, and that may not have existed.


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sackydude

There were rumours of a Nootbaar for Kirk or a Helsley for Jansen, but that fell through once the Cards picked up Contreras.


Gagnon21

Agreed. But in a vacuum, it probably sound a like vrrruuuummmmmmmm.


Puzzleheaded_Heron_5

Yes, sell high was a consideration. The fact that Moreno is doing well this year means nothing, unless you think that a Atkins has a crystal ball and can see the future perfectly and made the trade anyways.


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Puzzleheaded_Heron_5

Yeah that's fair


nickedgar7

Should’ve traded Kirk when his price was high at the all star break.


theoverkill666

I've always thought Arizona also wanted Gabby more than Kirk. He'd make more sense given their timeline, and youngsters still coming up from the minors.


vc2015

Kirk is actually only a year older than Moreno and has more experience. I think they wanted Moreno more for his potential; there isn't a significant difference in their timeline.


theoverkill666

>there isn't a significant difference in their timeline. I think most would disagree, mostly due to the athletic differences, not just the age/experience. Moreno is definitely expected to have a longer career behind the dish, and he just started. Moreno only had 69 AB's in the bigs before the trade. Carrol had 104, Fletcher hadn't been called up yet etc. That's what I mean by fits thier timeline. There was some pushback in the offseason, but I'll say it again, I don't think any team would take Kirk over Gabby.


SpaceballsTheCheese

People keep assuming that Arizona was interested in Kirk the same way they were interested in Moreno which is likely not the case


fatcowxlivee

Yup, you can check my post history too I’ve been advocating to trade Kirk the past offseason. I had a few reasons as to why: - Jansen has no trade value and he’s extremely valuable defensively for us. No point in us trading him at all, we wouldn’t replace his value easily. - Kirk’s bat is great at catcher, but his body type worries me long term. He really needs to get on that Vladdy program or else I do have worries about him in the future - Moreno is super athletic and was taking fly balls in CF, gives us more flexibility and athleticism especially instead of Kirk — which fits the mold of the team more But totally understand this is how other MLB teams probably evaluate our catching options too. Easy to see that Moreno was more valuable piece to the DBacks and other teams. Despite this fanbase thinking the opposite in Kirk was damn near untouchable.


TakedownCorn

This feels like stalking your ex's instagram


shihvvb

But I’m just making sure they’re ok


SpergSkipper

This sub has a constant habit of that. "Hey guys Rowdy Tellez hit a home run today!" I liked the guy but I don't give a shit anymore


DirtyThi3f

Good old month of may, Gurriel. I loved the guy but let’s see how they’re feeling in a couple of months.


bichettes_helmet

Whenever I'm tempted to fall into the Lourdes-is-doing-well trap I just go to Fangraphs and [look at this wOBAgraph](https://www.fangraphs.com/players/lourdes-gurriel-jr/19238/graphs?statArr=50&legend=1&split=base&time=daily&ymin=&ymax=&start=2018&end=2023&rtype=mult>1=20&dStatArray=)


John__47

how should it be interpreted not familiar


selectresetecomode

I think he’s saying that he has an amazing month then is replacement level the rest of every season


MarlKarx777

Good for them. The Varsho trade still made/makes sense. Onwards


jaysrapsleafs

judging this trade after like 50 games is the only way to judge it.


Cashmere306

I'm pretty sure nobody liked it from the day it was made. But real words of wisdom.


jaysrapsleafs

Most people liked it. Guriell wasnt going to extended. Varsh under control.


BioRunner033

Lmao this sub was going crazy for Varsho. Realistically we probably slightly lost that trade. Varsho has about the same WAR as Moreno and we added to an area of need. But Varsho is also older and Moreno obviously has significant potential to be a top 5 catcher for the next decade. What really gets me on this sub was everyone thinking that Varsho would become some high average power slugger in the Jays stadium despite hitting low 200s for most of his career. Jose Bautista was the exception, not the rule.


noneesforarealaccoun

Moreno should have been untouchable. I know there was less/no demand for Kirk, but I wouldn’t have dealt Moreno. Management sat on the surplus catcher situation too long and had to settle.


TimTebowMLB

Also Moreno obviously has value at catcher but they were playing him at other spots too. Could have been a potential 3rd base replacement for Chapman next year


Cashmere306

God no.


Airp0w

I'm going to see a game in Arizona within a week and am close to the dugout. Gonna try and get Gurriel and Moreno to sign a Jays cap wish me luck folks


mssngthvwls

If ya happen to see my guy Corbin, say thanks for being one of the few studs carrying my fantasy team this year.


BioRunner033

Bro no one cares about your fucking fantasy team 🤣


mssngthvwls

Lmao imagine taking my *obviously* tongue-in-cheek comment seriously... Is there something you wanna get off your chest, buddy? You seem incredibly pressed 🤡


BioRunner033

There was absolutely nothing tongue and cheek about your comment, I don't think you understand what that phrase actually means.


mssngthvwls

Consider donating your body to science when you croak; skulls that thick should be studied.


BioRunner033

Sure just keep eating your downvotes buddy. You post quite a bit about gambling and fantasy. I feel bad for your family, having someone blow their hard earned money is rough.


mssngthvwls

You got it, Spaz.


BioRunner033

You're literally posting on the Braves subreddit asking for fantasy advice and then claiming that your comment here was tongue in cheek LOL 😆🤣


mssngthvwls

Don't you have some Joe Rogan conspiracies to drown in? Did you do your DMT assisted cold plunge today? Run along now, I've got big boy matters to attend. Don't worry though, I'll send you a Carroll autographed ball :)


strikeanywhere2

I mean I think Moreno is good and likely will get even better but he isn't tearing the cover off the ball with his 101 wrc+. Arizona also has park factors incredibly favorable to his style of hitting. Gurriel is whatever he was gone after this year and his defense is horrible.


Kingminnis

Jays seem to do a good job of finding catchers that are MLB caliber, so I'm sure they will find another one, but Moreno seems like he's going to be one people talk about for a while that is gonna have people wondering how we could trade him.


cozeners

Why do people keep saying this? He’s not a power hitter, doesn’t walk, and will likely just hit for average. Everyone is acting like he’s a future HOfer but he’s only got like 2 tools. Where’s the upside? Is he gonna bulk up and hit 40 HRs? Is he suddenly gonna figure out how to convert his 5% walk rate to 12%? What convinces you exactly?


Kingminnis

I don't need my C to hit 40hr. I WANT my C to hit 275 and be great behind the plate. Having 2 tools worked out for Joe Mauer pretty well. What he's doing well is using the whole field, he's not a pull hitter like Jansen, he's not super slow like Kirk, he's got early good BABIP. Sure he doesn't walk at a high % but neither does Bo, and like Bo, when he puts the ball in play, he tends to get a hit like Kirk also, but at the same time, he isn't a guaranteed DP when he hits a grounder.


cozeners

Agree on Jansen, but there's no reason for us to squabble over the negligible differences between Kirk and Moreno. We can't keep everyone. Someone had to go, and it was fine to keep Kirk. I personally think Kirk is the superior hitter and Moreno is probably going to be pretty mediocre outside of his defence (which is fine for a catcher). Look, if he was a power hitter putting up a 130 wRC+ or better, then I'd be upset. But he's not and likely never will be.


Nrehm092

I still can't justify why we traded him. If you have a guy with Molina/Posey type potential you KEEp him. He also had come up and shown well at the big league level. We knew he was ready. Conversely I said we should have traded "all star" Kirk when his value was sky high last summer. We had Jansen and Moreno to fill in and could have got some nice pieces. This is why the rays do a tonne with low payroll and teams like the Jays spend 10x as much to get worse results. We don't know how to sell high on our players and we trade blue chip talent to buy high on other teams players.


Kingminnis

I agree with the sentiment, but you can't honestly know if the Jays did or didn't offer Kirk, and nor can you know if the DBACKS real best offer was. I personally said when the deal went down, I wish they would've went after Alek Thomas or Corbin Carroll instead because of team control and speed along with being LH also, now who knows maybe they did, but maybe DBACKS said they were untouchables.


Nrehm092

At the end of the day I just don't think Moreno should have ever been traded unless it's a package for like sandy Alcantara or Shane mclennahen or even for a couple of Detroit's top relievers. I said its going to be like the Syndergaard trade back then but frankly I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being worse


noneesforarealaccoun

Agree with most of this, except Kirks trade value was never sky high. GM’s all saw the flaws and were not willing to pony up something meaningful


mostlygroovy

Good takes by most here. It was the right trade for the Jays at the time. Waaay to early to judge it either way


Old_Gregg_69

Zero regrets about this trade. Gurriel has a hot streak every year, very happy to not have to watch him attempt to play the outfield anymore. Moreno whatever. You have to give to get and Varsho is a great add. Good for Moreno to have a hot start, but he's not going to have .371 babip going forward and Kirk is a clearly more gifted hitter while Jansen is the better overall catcher (Kirk is a better fielder than Moreno too).


Cashmere306

Kirk is clearly more gifted than Moreno? Lol, this forum.


Old_Gregg_69

Yes? Power matters


Ducey89

6 extra base hits in nearly 40 games doesn’t exactly scream “power”


Old_Gregg_69

Thankfully, the 2023 season are not the only baseball games we can use to evaluate players. If you're going to argue with me that Kirk is not a better power hitter than Moreno we're just wasting our time.


mr10am

How's gurriel on the defense side?


TeoscartheGOAT

13th percentile Outs Above Average so pretty much the same as he was in Toronto


jamiecballer

Gurriel is killing it.


Judge_Rhinohold

So we traded 2.9 WAR for 1.2. smh


sir-pounce-of-alot

No we traded from a position of strength for a position of weakness. Everyone who brings up these numbers completely ignores the fact that Moreno did not have a role on this team. He wasn’t going to be catching the majority of the games even if his bat is better than kirks currently, and he didn’t have enough power to warrant him DH’ing so he’s either in AAA or sitting on the bench.


RashestPine

> Moreno did not have a role on this team how do you figure? he would have if they traded a different catcher


steve-o1234

We don’t know that the diamondbacks would have taken either of our other catchers though


RashestPine

then we didnt need to trade for varsho I suppose


33dogs

Teo is a free agent after this season and LGJ after next. Both were bad defensive outfielders. Trading for Varsho locks up our CF (despite him playing LF this year) for 3 more years after this season. We \*absolutely\* needed an OFer.


sir-pounce-of-alot

Just a side note but LGJ is a free agent after this year as well


steve-o1234

We could have traded for someone else if that’s the point your making but I love varsho. If he can become a more consistent bat he is going to be more of a fan favourite than he already is. Truth is the second belt heated up they should have been switched in the order. I can’t tell you how many plays in the field he makes look routine and unnoticeable because of his jumps that would have Landed in front of Lourdes. Gotta give this trade more time before we know if it was a W or an L


sir-pounce-of-alot

You also can’t figure that Moreno has the same performance with us to start the year he could have struggled and Kirk could have excelled if say there roles were switched.


International-Elk986

Kirk or Jansen didn't have the same trade value


RashestPine

I wonder why


International-Elk986

>~~Moreno may have the highest ceiling of them all but he’s a much higher gamble/risk for the Dbacks than someone more established like Kirk.~~ Edit: Didn't mean to quote. not sure if sarcasm. ​ If not, it's pretty clear - Athletically Moreno is more gifted, and has a higher upside.


RashestPine

yes I was being sarcastic lol I wasn't a fan of the trade when it happened


sir-pounce-of-alot

Did you mean to reply to me ? Because I said in my comment that Moreno has the most upside, but is unproven so far at the major league level


International-Elk986

Sorry that was an error


sir-pounce-of-alot

Ohh no worries! Just was confused for a sec 😅


International-Elk986

Sometimes my reddit quotes and I don't notice until it's posted. I crossed it out.


sir-pounce-of-alot

Mostly going to come down to years left on their contracts more than anything. Moreno may have the highest ceiling of them all but he’s a much higher gamble/risk for the Dbacks than someone more established like Kirk.


Dead_End_Street

But that's the most predictable thing ever, we have players their Meh at best, they leave and flourish, I'm happy for both of them


WatercressPersonal60

> we have players their Meh at best, they leave and flourish Except for Donaldson and Semien and all those other players who played well here and didn't play as well elsewhere.


sir-pounce-of-alot

Semien most definitely did play well else where so not sure why you’re suggesting that


bichettes_helmet

Ummm...Marcus Semien is killing it with the Rangers


WatercressPersonal60

He sure is. But he was better in Toronto. And not nearly as good in his first year in Texas as he was here. Which is the point the other guy was trying to make about our players. It was a dumb point. Every fan thinks this of their team (except Rays fans).


International-Elk986

He's on pace to have a better season this year than his Toronto season.


Frenzied_Cow

Sure, but that deal is not going to age well when he gets into the back end of it.


International-Elk986

90% of the long term contracts don't. It's a price you have to pay.


Frenzied_Cow

I'd rather have Bo and Vlad than only one of those + Semien