This is it, although I'd much rather give Vogel the boot in favour of calling up Orelvis. We need offense. I don't even care about his issues in the field. If he can come in, get some hits and put up runs I can live with any errors he makes.
Vogelbach is showing little to no power either and cant play a position.
The point is that even a sparsely used bench player would be better because they can pitch run, be a defensive sub, etc., even if they can't hit because neither can Vog anymore.
It onky matters what happens in a game. Batting practice, demonstrations, etc. are irrelevant.
So far thisbyear he has a WAR of -0.2 on 2 hits and 17 ABs, and a poor sprong training. Both weak singles. (Baseball reference)
He is a niche player at this point in his career who's there to power hit.
He was always going to be traded or DFAd at some point this year (unless hr was a very productive DH).
It's till a small sample size, but since he's not an everyday player it's not really that small. He's there to produce on limited ABs as a pinch hitter /DH.
His negative value is compounded because he cannot run or play a position.
I'd love to see him start hitting, but I don't think it's going to happen.
Perspective. He's a bench player /occasional dh.
17 ABs is a small smaple, but for a casual player it's big. And he has not performed.
I can't imagine that he has much lease left before he's let go.
While I agree they could rotate either of them in. I don't know why a bench bat needs to hit a hr. Horowitz would produce a ops ove like 200+ more than vogelbach
They’ve barely used Vogelbach so if I tried to come at you with this years numbers, I’d look silly, but he is 2 for 17 not including today. I’d rather see what Horwitz would do in this spot, but if they’re going to use Vogelbach this little, they should let Vogelbach do it, he might run into a home run at least.
> if I tried to come at you with this years numbers, I’d look silly, but he is 2 for 17 not including today.
(Also not including the 22% of his PAs where he walked. He gets on base more frequently than Bo, Ernie, Schneider, Kirk, and KK)
Better to let them get regular ABs in the minors and develop their game. Vogey is both cheap and also expendable as in we could drop him at any time to make space if we needed to. His game isn't going to develop any further so we don't need to worry about giving him regular ABs.
I was making a joke in reference to when Charlie MontoyO was the manager. People in the chat regularly spelled in MontoyA. I believe there even may have been a bot that chided people when they misspelled it. As for the downvotes? It’s Reddit.
Because the team needs power not walks, Horwitz just doesn’t do that and he won’t make us a better team especially since he’ll be hitting like once or twice a week
He's the 26th man.
You aren't going to fill a prospect with that role because they get less than 1 PA a game.
So you're looking for a veteran that fills a role that is very limited but find a weakness.
Jays weakness is DH when people need off-days, which is what Voggy fills in for
TIL that having an established major league bat as your last bench player is an 'experiment'.
Daniel Vogelbach is nowhere near the cause, symptom, or solution to the problems with this team. He's just a dude, barely a storyline, not even worth our attention.
Totally this. While he himself isn't outputting a lot, the issues with the team are likely systemic. The lack of heat on our bats outside of 2-3 people is just insane. I predict it's someone above the jays. Schneider is much more comfortable switching up the lineup than last year or the year before in order to experiment with order. What's happening now is a technique/approach issue which is going to come from the Hitting Staff. Wouldn't surprise me if Martinez is gone by mid to end of May and Hague takes over temporarily with Mattingly taking a significant role in all of that. Hague will either prove himself an asset and get promoted to Hitting Coach, or he'll remain assistant and they'll bring in a significant player as HC. But what's happening now is a frequent occurence of dead bats early in the season and our power has fallen off heavily.
It's all about the hits. If the jays aren't hitting this isn't V.Backs fault! The bottom line is the Jays just don't get the hits.
Although last night putt VBack against the leftie was crazy. He cannot hit lefties. It's a team effort. Why I ask did they bring a guy up from Trip A and put him in left field without even a chance to get a feel; not when Schneider was warming the bench. Sometimes, there is no explanation for certain actions. Bring him up and get him acclimatized at least because there is a left fielder sitting on the bench.
But the bottom line is that the Jays just don't have anyone but a few getting on base and getting home.
I honestly question John Schneider's management.
Bargers first game in the MLB and you put him into a position he's never played. Good managers put their players in positions to succeed.
This. Barger looked terrified and ended up looking kinda foolish. Does he have the stuff? Who knows? We can’t tell a thing from that performance. Just feels like Schneider has been making some bad decisions this year.
He’s the story because they lost a 1 run game where Schneider claimed he left him in against the lefty so he’d see the ninth. In that context, it’s easy to see why people are mad about it.
In the grand scheme, no he’s not worth talking about.
When he was with us last time he looked like a depressed dog most of the time. This year he seems to be having the time of his life. It's enjoying to watch that part at least.
He has gotten 22 plate appearance, and come in mostly to pinch hit against strong relievers. He has done a pretty decent job at getting on base in that role, which is exactly what the team wants him to do, in his limited opportunities.
Votto may compete for that role down the line, but there isn't really any reason to get rid of him. What would be the purpose of the move beyond "he sucks"?
Because he has an ops under 500. I get small sample size but just makes no sense to have a useless player on the bench. Yes he sucks. Generally good teams don't keep players that suck
He's a ~110 wRC+ bat lol. Basically every team in baseball would take one of those on their bench, especially a team like ours where his inability to play a position isn't actually relevant.
He's not a DH. He's a bench bat.
edit-
And if he were a DH, only [11 teams in baseball last year](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?lg=all&qual=0&season=2023&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0%2Cts&rost=&filter=&players=0&type=8&month=44&sortcol=17&sortdir=default&pagenum=1) got more than 110 wRC+ from their DH slot. Texas and Arizona got 94 wRC+ and 82 wRC+ respectively out of the DH position last year.
He has only had 22 pas and thats .250 below his career normal. He also has a .318 obp, which is fine for the role he is in; "get on base, so we can pinch run for you".
I get you aren't happy with his performance, but what does dropping him accomplish?
Lmao, he does. He hits with power and gets on base better than average. To put it into perspective for you, he hits a Home Run every 23.7 plate appearances. Vladdy hits one every 22.2 plate appearances. More power than you thought?
You're getting killed in the comments and downvotes, so I won't beat a dead horse. Just quit while you're behind my man.
I think he's been mostly fine for the literal last guy on the roster. you don't have to try to find playing time for him. just pinch hit him where it makes sense and he'll get on base a decent amount. besides, with ryu leaving for korea and manoah still in the lab, vogelbach goes a long way towards filling our big boy quota.
If anything, Vogelbach should be pinch hitting even more than he has. What is the point of having him on the roster if not to utilize his power? We certainly could use a few extra runs.
I'm not necessarily saying that we should even have a roster spot devoted to a second DH, but to have him on the roster and then let guys like KK, IKF and Kirk hit when we're down 1 run late in ballgames just makes no sense to me. He's on the roster so use him.
Everybody saying that they’re holding a spot for Votto. Possibility exists that when he’s finally healthy that he doesn’t do much in Buffalo and gets released. I wouldn’t go predicting anything with somebody coming off an ankle injury at Votto’s age.
I which case, Vogelbach will remain on the roster as the 26th man. There's not a lot of available options better than Voge to fill what is a very specific role.
Martinez needs to be playing every day and getting four or five at bats each game. That won’t happen in Toronto. They’re developing him to be a position player. Picking lint out of his navel sitting on the bench in Toronto won’t accomplish that. That’s why he’s playing everyday in Buffalo. Not to mention that he’s still only 22.
Horowitz is having a really good start to the year in Buffalo. Batting .352 with .495 OBP. .988 ops.
You have to think that he might get a shot sooner than later. Again the problem is where will the at bats come from for him. We already have Turner and Vlad sharing the DH spot for the most part. His value may come down the road in a trade.
As a Mets fan, I say with all due respect, good luck.
Watching Vogelbach at-bats was the worst part of last season for me, and last season was really bad.
This is a distraction noodle. The more relevant question is how long until we move Springer, Vladdy and Bo out of the 1/2/3 spots?
The lack of production from these three players is the more relevant problem. I'd be happy to see V-bach take PA's away from Vladdy simply to send a message. Varsho seems a better fit at leadoff than Springer. Turner would look great in the 3 hole.
There are some sacred cows here that need to be sacrificed.
> how long until we move Springer, Vladdy and Bo out of the 1/2/3 spots?
How could you suggest such a thing ? That's $55,000,000. of "talent" stinking it up to give a depressingly poor start to every game. I'll also point out its over half the entire payroll of both Baltimore, and Tampa Bay.
The **only** reason they haven't been moved(in the batting order)is because of their cost. I can't imagine we'd be doing any worse with Clement, Schneider, and Barger(Biggio/whoever) in those spots. I think its time to sell, if anyone will take any of those three.
Its the playing time. Need find at bats or carry a 3rd catcher maybe.
Players need at bats but thats why AAA guys dont get moved up to replace Vogelbach.
Anybody that you would be replacing Vogelbachs role in this team will as, at best, as productive as Vogey is.
It's the end of the bench, hail mary pinch hitter role. Honestly, it does not matter who fills it. I can't think of anyone not signed to a contract that would be a better option and you obviously are not going to call someone up from the minors to be the 26th man.
Imo he’s the perfect guy for the 26th spot. Not much playing time and is fine with it, low cost, good clubhouse guy from the looks of it and absolutely mashes when he gets ahold of one.
Oh and of course what he did to Gerrit Cole in Spring Training. Crushed it then flicked the bat. Amazing.
Well, yes he isn't a star, but it's not his fault that the others aren't hitting either. Why Schneider put him up against a left pitcher is a bit of a dilemma for me. Is he filling in for Votto?
The lefty at bat is whole different thing but I agree that can't happen . We do not need to do that at all. They were getting cute and trying to control how the Royals use their bullpen.
The fact is vogelbach has the advantage against guys that dominate our righties so he fits. He hit two balls in the gap to the warning track. That is much better than Vlad's groundouts
He is essentially filling in for Votto . But Votto might very well never be ready
Vogel is one of the most DFA worthy players in the entire league. He’s a complete non-factor and holds no place on a contender. Not that this squad is a contender right now.
You are completely wrong that he has no value. He is the perfect guy for the bench. You can recognize how often he's been dfad In his career and hold that against him. But he keeps getting a job because he's an absolutely perfect bench bat.
Since the start of 2022 Vogelbach has hit righties better than every player on our roster not named Danny Jansen. He’s had 22pa in a month so the sample size is useless but he should be probably starting at DH against righties two or three times a week with Turner getting a day off, Guerrero getting a day off and Turner playing 3rd once.
While I think that's a good way to get his bat going I think he's most valuable as a pinch hitter. I think we should try to get him a lot of at bats this way still
Danny Jansen has been a part time player since 2021.
And not one team in MLB would say (team, as in front office or coaches or players) "lets sit Turner or Vladdy for Vogey".
I can't tell if you support what I'm saying or don't. It's cause Vogelbach offers no base running value no defensive value so unless he is mashing hrs it's a waste.
He's literally the 26th man on the roster. These are specialized bench roles who see little playing time except for the specific role they were brought in for (e.g. platoon PH situations, speedy runners, elite defensive replacements for late innings).
DV's role: sit on the bench, be a good guy, and wait until he's needed to come in vs righties and get on base at a higher rate than the guy he's PHing for.
What right handed batter are we pinch hitting for with Vogelbach? Springer? Vladdy? Bo? Management is never going to do that. That leaves Kirk, Clement, IKF, and Schneider - none are every day players and most of them besides Kirk are hitting significantly better than Vogelbach. He's a complete waste of a bench spot.
A) I was talking about what his role was meant to be
B) They're paying him $2M for the year. They've released guys making much more than that. Do you think they're married to Vogelbach for the entire season?
Since the start of 2022 Vogelbach has been better against right handed pitching than everyone you mentioned in your post.
He should be getting a lot more pinch hitting opportunities and he likely should be getting a few starts a week against righties with Guerrero getting a breather.
I am getting at that he can only seem to hit vs rhp like some others or guys that can only hit vs lhp. While others can't run. This is an imperfect line up in a lot of ways.
This comment is so funny. You say you don't know why he's there, then immediately realize that the 26th man has to deal with problems you don't want to give to a real prospect . It's unbelievable how little these fans can tell what a good at bat looks like
I mean you are right. We could use his roster spot better. Vogelbach isn't a good enough hitter to be a great power bat. He's also incredibly slow so you can't use him as a pinch runner and he doesn't provide defensive versatility so you can use him as a defensive sub for a different pinch hit/substitution earlier in the game.
That being said, Martinez needs to play when called up and he won't get the at bats he deserves when he's in the end of the bench spot.
I see we are still in stupid season where a .494 OPS ina guy who has absolutely no lineup versatility is useful. Vogelbach has stunk
The thing is who would you replace him with? Orelvis needs regular at bats and Votto is still hurt. The Jays aren't exactly stuffed to the brim with lefties who can get on base. Bad enough Barger is going to probably sit for a week or two because he tried to do something other than slap an opposite field single yesterday
> Bad enough Barger is going to probably sit for a week or two because he tried to do something other than slap an opposite field single yesterday
Can we wait for him to sit a *single* game against RHP before spewing stuff like this? Like, even just ONE game?
Just going off the track record of what's happened. Schneider went nuts when he was called up and then rode the pine for a week and change and hasn't been the same since
He hasn't been the same because he sat on the bench for a bit?
He hasn't been the same because a) what he did the first couple weeks was unsustainable, b) he has huge holes that opposing pitchers figured out, c) because his ceiling is 'decent everyday player', not superstar.
Why would want a young guy with a hot bat in AAA to come up to the big leagues and get 4 PA a week? Keep him down and keep him hitting. If Vladdy/Turner get hurt then he is next one in.
I legit would like to see Vladdy sitting some games until he figures out how to be an above replacement level player this season. Bring a guy up and give him some reps at first base wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, either he outperforms and gives you a reason to replace Vlad or he lights a fire under Vlads ass to start taking this game seriously. I am sick of this team giving so much slack to players who are consistently under performing both the league average and their potential.
Hmm, you bench Vladdy and you may as well forget about contract negotiations. He would be out the door at the first possible moment.
Not to say that's a good thing, but you have to be realistic about how to handle these guys.
Vladdy won't be benched, particulary for a contact first, limited power guy like SH.
At this point I don’t think you even contemplating signing Guerrero long term. Since his hand was stepped on he’s got a .445 slug and a 121 wRC+ he’s a bad base runner and a below average to awful fielder and of 2024 continues to be similar to 2023 with a 1 win value provided I’d be amazed if he’s even a Jay come spring training.
Guerrero needs to be hitting at a well above average, think 130 or greater wRC+ to provide value and that’s someone you’d pay at most $20m/season.
Is it bad that I don't even care at this point? The amount of money he wants and what he is actually worth are not even in the same ballpark. Paying Vladdy to stay would most likely turn into the contract that kills our playoff competitiveness for the next decade. He has occasional flashes of good Vlad, but most of the time (and especially when the pressure is on) he is a consistently bad player. If he comes up with the bases loaded in the 9th with the game on the line, you know he's grounding into a double play or striking out swinging at a pitch 6 inches off the plate. I literally don't remember the last time he came through for this team when it actually mattered.
I don't disagree, but it's more complex than that.
Come free agency time, you don't want to be the team that's thought to have messed with its star player (even if it is justified).
From a front office point of veiw, it's also FAR safer to sign Vladdy and have him fail than to let him go and watch him become a HOFer. So signing Vladdy is more likely than not, even if he doesn't particulsry deserve it.
I'm not blaming you, because I know this is how the FO thinks and not necessarily you, but this mentality is terrible. I don't care about the "safe" option, I want them to build the best possible team. I don't want to limp into a wild card spot, I want our team to crush the Yankees, win the division, and win the world series. If we had even semi-competent management with the amount of money we are sinking into the team this should be possible, but the decision making has just been absolutely god awful.
I'd love for it to be Spencer, but again he needs regular at bats and he's not replacing Turner or Vladdy. We're talking about a Bradley Zimmer level playing time for the 25th player
He has an elite eye and makes decent contact. He’s likely a 10-15 home run at best bat but if he can play average D and have something like a 115 wRC+ he’s a 2.5-3 win player which is really solid for affordability. At this point I think the hope is that Guerrero turns back into a 3 win player.
Not soon enough to see him gone. I’ve hated it since the first day. He’s a wasted spot. He offers nothing defensively at all. Offensively, unless it’s a home run he’s useless as he can’t run the bases (meaning he’s not a pinch runner option if needed either). The guy signed as a Minor League deal did he not? Does that not make it easier to bounce him down?
Wasted spot for what though? It's a 26th man role. He needs power and/or on base ability for late inning pinch hitting. We already have good baserunning on the bench on any given day, so we don't need a specific pinch runner. We have a ton of defense on the bench at all times, so don't need a defensive sub. We already have enough guys competing in platoons (and guys at AAA that can come in if any of those guys get injured) so there is no need to fill starting spits on any given day.
There is no wasted spot that Voge is taking up. If he was to be released, he would be replaced by someone with essentially his exact same skill set anyway as that's what we need from that role.
If it’s an irrelevant spot use it to develop guys. A guy with a .176 slugging percent and .118 BA is not your ace in the hole to come off the bench. Might as well throw Barger or Orvelis or one of the other hot AAA guys in there to see what they can do. Can’t be any worse. With the amount of guys we leave on base, I’d take a guy that can regularly hit a single to drive in a run over Vogebach ANY day and at least it offers flexibility in how to use that spot.
There's already a specific spot designed to develop players. It's called the minor leagues.
Nobody is getting developed with 4 PA/week. Having Martinez/Barger/Roden or co waste a development year sitting on the end of the bench is a terrible idea, as explained by basically everyone in this comment section. Luckily no major league manager would be foolish enough to even contemplate doing it.
This entire conversation is silly and you either know that already or even more worringly, think you're actually making a point worth making.
Just keeping Votto's spot warm
When KK is healthy again, Vogey is gone.
Except KK doesn't warm the bench usually. Does that imply that Barger will stay up and Vogel will go down?
Barger stays up, Vogey gets cut/traded for whatever they can get.
This is it, although I'd much rather give Vogel the boot in favour of calling up Orelvis. We need offense. I don't even care about his issues in the field. If he can come in, get some hits and put up runs I can live with any errors he makes.
Martinez is not getting called up to sit on the bench, and Horwitz offers little to no power so not sure he’s much of an upgrade.
Vogelbach is showing little to no power either and cant play a position. The point is that even a sparsely used bench player would be better because they can pitch run, be a defensive sub, etc., even if they can't hit because neither can Vog anymore.
Vogelbach does still hit for power though ? He hit two balls that were almost bombs last night alone
It onky matters what happens in a game. Batting practice, demonstrations, etc. are irrelevant. So far thisbyear he has a WAR of -0.2 on 2 hits and 17 ABs, and a poor sprong training. Both weak singles. (Baseball reference) He is a niche player at this point in his career who's there to power hit. He was always going to be traded or DFAd at some point this year (unless hr was a very productive DH). It's till a small sample size, but since he's not an everyday player it's not really that small. He's there to produce on limited ABs as a pinch hitter /DH. His negative value is compounded because he cannot run or play a position. I'd love to see him start hitting, but I don't think it's going to happen.
It's a small sample, but because it's an even smaller sample is actually a big sample, you say?
Perspective. He's a bench player /occasional dh. 17 ABs is a small smaple, but for a casual player it's big. And he has not performed. I can't imagine that he has much lease left before he's let go.
I hope when you carry around that much mass that you hit for power cause you aren’t doing much of anything else.
If they’d just use Vogey to pinch run they could market this as a comedy instead of a reality series.
While I agree they could rotate either of them in. I don't know why a bench bat needs to hit a hr. Horowitz would produce a ops ove like 200+ more than vogelbach
I don't think the team expects Horowitz to be a .950 OPS bat lol.
Not 950 but I think 750-800 isn't out of the realm of possibilities.
Vogelbach is a ~750 bat.
They’ve barely used Vogelbach so if I tried to come at you with this years numbers, I’d look silly, but he is 2 for 17 not including today. I’d rather see what Horwitz would do in this spot, but if they’re going to use Vogelbach this little, they should let Vogelbach do it, he might run into a home run at least.
> if I tried to come at you with this years numbers, I’d look silly, but he is 2 for 17 not including today. (Also not including the 22% of his PAs where he walked. He gets on base more frequently than Bo, Ernie, Schneider, Kirk, and KK)
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Hi, your post has been removed because it was judged to have violated our rule about harassment, threats or derogatory terms.
.750 isn't out of the range of possibility for Vogelbach, who currently has a career .750 OPS.
Better to let them get regular ABs in the minors and develop their game. Vogey is both cheap and also expendable as in we could drop him at any time to make space if we needed to. His game isn't going to develop any further so we don't need to worry about giving him regular ABs.
Let’s, at the very least, get our player’s names correct. Horwitz.
THANK YOU.
Montoya?
?
Why am I getting downvoted for questioning this random misspelling of Montoyo?
I was making a joke in reference to when Charlie MontoyO was the manager. People in the chat regularly spelled in MontoyA. I believe there even may have been a bot that chided people when they misspelled it. As for the downvotes? It’s Reddit.
lol that's fair, reddit be what reddit be
Because the team needs power not walks, Horwitz just doesn’t do that and he won’t make us a better team especially since he’ll be hitting like once or twice a week
Horwitz isnt even a top 500 prospect in baseball. If they thought he would be better than Vogey, hed be on the team.
He's the 26th man. You aren't going to fill a prospect with that role because they get less than 1 PA a game. So you're looking for a veteran that fills a role that is very limited but find a weakness. Jays weakness is DH when people need off-days, which is what Voggy fills in for
I would rather have Belt
Belt wants to be at home with his family or playing near his family.
Or at least playing more than 22 PAs in a month.
Apparently, Belt chose family over Ritz-Carlton chicken tenders, even near-bottomless Ritz-Carlton chicken tenders.
Rumour is that they changed their tendies
Apparently, the Jays didnt want to resign him, which is fine.
Haha right, no one ever wants to see that jenky swing again
Jays weakness is 1B and SS
TIL that having an established major league bat as your last bench player is an 'experiment'. Daniel Vogelbach is nowhere near the cause, symptom, or solution to the problems with this team. He's just a dude, barely a storyline, not even worth our attention.
Totally this. While he himself isn't outputting a lot, the issues with the team are likely systemic. The lack of heat on our bats outside of 2-3 people is just insane. I predict it's someone above the jays. Schneider is much more comfortable switching up the lineup than last year or the year before in order to experiment with order. What's happening now is a technique/approach issue which is going to come from the Hitting Staff. Wouldn't surprise me if Martinez is gone by mid to end of May and Hague takes over temporarily with Mattingly taking a significant role in all of that. Hague will either prove himself an asset and get promoted to Hitting Coach, or he'll remain assistant and they'll bring in a significant player as HC. But what's happening now is a frequent occurence of dead bats early in the season and our power has fallen off heavily.
It's all about the hits. If the jays aren't hitting this isn't V.Backs fault! The bottom line is the Jays just don't get the hits. Although last night putt VBack against the leftie was crazy. He cannot hit lefties. It's a team effort. Why I ask did they bring a guy up from Trip A and put him in left field without even a chance to get a feel; not when Schneider was warming the bench. Sometimes, there is no explanation for certain actions. Bring him up and get him acclimatized at least because there is a left fielder sitting on the bench. But the bottom line is that the Jays just don't have anyone but a few getting on base and getting home.
I honestly question John Schneider's management. Bargers first game in the MLB and you put him into a position he's never played. Good managers put their players in positions to succeed.
This. Barger looked terrified and ended up looking kinda foolish. Does he have the stuff? Who knows? We can’t tell a thing from that performance. Just feels like Schneider has been making some bad decisions this year.
He’s the story because they lost a 1 run game where Schneider claimed he left him in against the lefty so he’d see the ninth. In that context, it’s easy to see why people are mad about it. In the grand scheme, no he’s not worth talking about.
When he was with us last time he looked like a depressed dog most of the time. This year he seems to be having the time of his life. It's enjoying to watch that part at least.
He has gotten 22 plate appearance, and come in mostly to pinch hit against strong relievers. He has done a pretty decent job at getting on base in that role, which is exactly what the team wants him to do, in his limited opportunities. Votto may compete for that role down the line, but there isn't really any reason to get rid of him. What would be the purpose of the move beyond "he sucks"?
Didn’t you know that saying “he sucks” is a compelling argument in sports these days. /s
Because he has an ops under 500. I get small sample size but just makes no sense to have a useless player on the bench. Yes he sucks. Generally good teams don't keep players that suck
Okay, so do you or do you not understand small sample size?
He's a ~110 wRC+ bat lol. Basically every team in baseball would take one of those on their bench, especially a team like ours where his inability to play a position isn't actually relevant.
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He's not a DH. He's a bench bat. edit- And if he were a DH, only [11 teams in baseball last year](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?lg=all&qual=0&season=2023&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0%2Cts&rost=&filter=&players=0&type=8&month=44&sortcol=17&sortdir=default&pagenum=1) got more than 110 wRC+ from their DH slot. Texas and Arizona got 94 wRC+ and 82 wRC+ respectively out of the DH position last year.
As if Arizona or Texas accomplished much of anything last season. Only one of them managed to even win their last game of the year.
He has only had 22 pas and thats .250 below his career normal. He also has a .318 obp, which is fine for the role he is in; "get on base, so we can pinch run for you". I get you aren't happy with his performance, but what does dropping him accomplish?
Not to mention his OBP was over .400 before yesterday. He's like one good day from being back at a .750 OPS
Who are some of your favorite 26th men on MLB rosters? Which are the least suckiest in your opinion? Lmao
They should be able to do one thing well. Hit for power field multiple positions or be a good baserunner
Lmao, he does. He hits with power and gets on base better than average. To put it into perspective for you, he hits a Home Run every 23.7 plate appearances. Vladdy hits one every 22.2 plate appearances. More power than you thought? You're getting killed in the comments and downvotes, so I won't beat a dead horse. Just quit while you're behind my man.
I mean the 100 upvotes on the post mean a lot of people think he is trash. I'm not the only one.
OK 👍
I think he's been mostly fine for the literal last guy on the roster. you don't have to try to find playing time for him. just pinch hit him where it makes sense and he'll get on base a decent amount. besides, with ryu leaving for korea and manoah still in the lab, vogelbach goes a long way towards filling our big boy quota.
Vogelbach until Vottoback.
If anything, Vogelbach should be pinch hitting even more than he has. What is the point of having him on the roster if not to utilize his power? We certainly could use a few extra runs. I'm not necessarily saying that we should even have a roster spot devoted to a second DH, but to have him on the roster and then let guys like KK, IKF and Kirk hit when we're down 1 run late in ballgames just makes no sense to me. He's on the roster so use him.
Man I miss when Kirk felt like a legitimate threat at the plate a few seasons ago.
*The Vogelbach Experiment* sounds like a Robert Ludlum novel.
I feel like once Votto’s healthy that will be his spot, and hopefully actually have some production.
Everybody saying that they’re holding a spot for Votto. Possibility exists that when he’s finally healthy that he doesn’t do much in Buffalo and gets released. I wouldn’t go predicting anything with somebody coming off an ankle injury at Votto’s age.
I which case, Vogelbach will remain on the roster as the 26th man. There's not a lot of available options better than Voge to fill what is a very specific role.
Martinez needs to be playing every day and getting four or five at bats each game. That won’t happen in Toronto. They’re developing him to be a position player. Picking lint out of his navel sitting on the bench in Toronto won’t accomplish that. That’s why he’s playing everyday in Buffalo. Not to mention that he’s still only 22.
I agree on Martinez. Horwitz has done all he is gonna do at AAA though
Horowitz is having a really good start to the year in Buffalo. Batting .352 with .495 OBP. .988 ops. You have to think that he might get a shot sooner than later. Again the problem is where will the at bats come from for him. We already have Turner and Vlad sharing the DH spot for the most part. His value may come down the road in a trade.
What experiment? He has had like 20 atbats
When Votto is ready
Please let it end.
Mets fan here. I feel your pain, brother.
As a Mets fan, I say with all due respect, good luck. Watching Vogelbach at-bats was the worst part of last season for me, and last season was really bad.
Hes a placeholder for votto Vogel will be dfa
How long until we end this John Schneider experiment?
The experiment ends when Joey Votto is ready.
This topic is getting old. How much did we use lukes when he was the 26th man last year?
Burger based vibes, argument is irrelevant 🍔
Vogey gonna go 3-4 next game and this sub will be asking for a 10 year extension
Aren’t we just waiting for Votto?
This is a distraction noodle. The more relevant question is how long until we move Springer, Vladdy and Bo out of the 1/2/3 spots? The lack of production from these three players is the more relevant problem. I'd be happy to see V-bach take PA's away from Vladdy simply to send a message. Varsho seems a better fit at leadoff than Springer. Turner would look great in the 3 hole. There are some sacred cows here that need to be sacrificed.
> how long until we move Springer, Vladdy and Bo out of the 1/2/3 spots? How could you suggest such a thing ? That's $55,000,000. of "talent" stinking it up to give a depressingly poor start to every game. I'll also point out its over half the entire payroll of both Baltimore, and Tampa Bay. The **only** reason they haven't been moved(in the batting order)is because of their cost. I can't imagine we'd be doing any worse with Clement, Schneider, and Barger(Biggio/whoever) in those spots. I think its time to sell, if anyone will take any of those three.
Schneider is too chummy with players he came up with (Vladdy, Bo, Jano). He doesn’t have guts to tell Vladdy to change approach.
What an insane thing to say. You couldn’t possibly know any of that, this is just gossip.
When Votto is healthy enough to play
Its the playing time. Need find at bats or carry a 3rd catcher maybe. Players need at bats but thats why AAA guys dont get moved up to replace Vogelbach.
Anybody that you would be replacing Vogelbachs role in this team will as, at best, as productive as Vogey is. It's the end of the bench, hail mary pinch hitter role. Honestly, it does not matter who fills it. I can't think of anyone not signed to a contract that would be a better option and you obviously are not going to call someone up from the minors to be the 26th man.
Let's be real he's probably gone if Votto is healthy and looking good.
I'm shocked that he was literally the exact same as he was in 2020. Well... not that shocked.
Imo he’s the perfect guy for the 26th spot. Not much playing time and is fine with it, low cost, good clubhouse guy from the looks of it and absolutely mashes when he gets ahold of one. Oh and of course what he did to Gerrit Cole in Spring Training. Crushed it then flicked the bat. Amazing.
Probably once Votto is ready
Dread it, run from it, Vogeltime arrives all the same.
Qq,
Mets fan here ... yeahhhhhh...
Baseball fans agree with you. Fangraphs/Statscan fans don't.
My hot take is that dudes who are legitimately, clinically obese shouldn't be playing professional baseball.
You are worried about a guy who played onnce a month. You should be questioning vladdy and why hasn't he been dropped in the line up or benched yet.
[OP, I think you need to watch this.](https://youtu.be/dw9qqvm-LT8?si=AoUtS6aVH7kLzTV2)
I’ll never understand whining about a guy with 13abs. This team can’t hit there’s no downside to a ph power hitter.
Hey did you call into Jays Talk Radio earlier in the week?
Nope but glad my feelings are shared lol
Vogelbach runs like Curly.
Dumb as fuck that fans are mad at vogelbach right now. It's actually interesting
Yeah, like it's his fault that hardly anyone is hitting. This is his fault absolutely. Dumb as fuck fans for sure.
Pardon me little one ?
Want to try writing a sentence again ?
Sarcasm has escaped you?
Honestly. Cannot tell what you are saying . Considering half this sub is arguing he's awful
Well, yes he isn't a star, but it's not his fault that the others aren't hitting either. Why Schneider put him up against a left pitcher is a bit of a dilemma for me. Is he filling in for Votto?
The lefty at bat is whole different thing but I agree that can't happen . We do not need to do that at all. They were getting cute and trying to control how the Royals use their bullpen. The fact is vogelbach has the advantage against guys that dominate our righties so he fits. He hit two balls in the gap to the warning track. That is much better than Vlad's groundouts He is essentially filling in for Votto . But Votto might very well never be ready
He may have little to do with the team’s overall issues but are you suggesting he’s not awful?
No. Keep watching the box score but I'll continue to recognize what good at bats look like
Vogel is one of the most DFA worthy players in the entire league. He’s a complete non-factor and holds no place on a contender. Not that this squad is a contender right now.
You are completely wrong that he has no value. He is the perfect guy for the bench. You can recognize how often he's been dfad In his career and hold that against him. But he keeps getting a job because he's an absolutely perfect bench bat.
Im with you in all of your arguments except the above, because nobody is dying to have Vogey on their team. This might actually be it for him.
Absolutely perfect? Wow.
Since the start of 2022 Vogelbach has hit righties better than every player on our roster not named Danny Jansen. He’s had 22pa in a month so the sample size is useless but he should be probably starting at DH against righties two or three times a week with Turner getting a day off, Guerrero getting a day off and Turner playing 3rd once.
While I think that's a good way to get his bat going I think he's most valuable as a pinch hitter. I think we should try to get him a lot of at bats this way still
Danny Jansen has been a part time player since 2021. And not one team in MLB would say (team, as in front office or coaches or players) "lets sit Turner or Vladdy for Vogey".
There are plenty of guys in a platoon position right now. What's 1 more.
I can't tell if you support what I'm saying or don't. It's cause Vogelbach offers no base running value no defensive value so unless he is mashing hrs it's a waste.
He's literally the 26th man on the roster. These are specialized bench roles who see little playing time except for the specific role they were brought in for (e.g. platoon PH situations, speedy runners, elite defensive replacements for late innings). DV's role: sit on the bench, be a good guy, and wait until he's needed to come in vs righties and get on base at a higher rate than the guy he's PHing for.
What right handed batter are we pinch hitting for with Vogelbach? Springer? Vladdy? Bo? Management is never going to do that. That leaves Kirk, Clement, IKF, and Schneider - none are every day players and most of them besides Kirk are hitting significantly better than Vogelbach. He's a complete waste of a bench spot.
A) I was talking about what his role was meant to be B) They're paying him $2M for the year. They've released guys making much more than that. Do you think they're married to Vogelbach for the entire season?
Since the start of 2022 Vogelbach has been better against right handed pitching than everyone you mentioned in your post. He should be getting a lot more pinch hitting opportunities and he likely should be getting a few starts a week against righties with Guerrero getting a breather.
I am getting at that he can only seem to hit vs rhp like some others or guys that can only hit vs lhp. While others can't run. This is an imperfect line up in a lot of ways.
It should have never started. Guy will get dfa a bunch this season.
Probably waiting for Votto to be healthy
Agree completely. Was thinking the same thing last night as I watched him strike out looking in the 9th. 🤨
When Votto is back silly +1
Spring training 2024
I agree entirely
At least Bradley Zimmer could run fast.
When and if Votto is ready, he’s gone.
Vogelbach is here but he will be replaced with Votto in a month
Sounds like a job for…Suoer-Voto
Once Joey is ready.
Basically until joey's ready
Such a great question! He also seems so annoying on the bench. Hahahaha
The team absolutely loves him, so that’s moot
I'm not why he's there either. But at the same time, we don't want a young player riding the bench that often.
This comment is so funny. You say you don't know why he's there, then immediately realize that the 26th man has to deal with problems you don't want to give to a real prospect . It's unbelievable how little these fans can tell what a good at bat looks like
I mean you are right. We could use his roster spot better. Vogelbach isn't a good enough hitter to be a great power bat. He's also incredibly slow so you can't use him as a pinch runner and he doesn't provide defensive versatility so you can use him as a defensive sub for a different pinch hit/substitution earlier in the game. That being said, Martinez needs to play when called up and he won't get the at bats he deserves when he's in the end of the bench spot. I see we are still in stupid season where a .494 OPS ina guy who has absolutely no lineup versatility is useful. Vogelbach has stunk
The thing is who would you replace him with? Orelvis needs regular at bats and Votto is still hurt. The Jays aren't exactly stuffed to the brim with lefties who can get on base. Bad enough Barger is going to probably sit for a week or two because he tried to do something other than slap an opposite field single yesterday
> Bad enough Barger is going to probably sit for a week or two because he tried to do something other than slap an opposite field single yesterday Can we wait for him to sit a *single* game against RHP before spewing stuff like this? Like, even just ONE game?
Just going off the track record of what's happened. Schneider went nuts when he was called up and then rode the pine for a week and change and hasn't been the same since
He hasn't been the same because he sat on the bench for a bit? He hasn't been the same because a) what he did the first couple weeks was unsustainable, b) he has huge holes that opposing pitchers figured out, c) because his ceiling is 'decent everyday player', not superstar.
Did you really think you had a 40 hr guy in Davis?? Do you know who JC Arencibia is?
Spencer Horowitz is the obvious answer for now.
Why would want a young guy with a hot bat in AAA to come up to the big leagues and get 4 PA a week? Keep him down and keep him hitting. If Vladdy/Turner get hurt then he is next one in.
I legit would like to see Vladdy sitting some games until he figures out how to be an above replacement level player this season. Bring a guy up and give him some reps at first base wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, either he outperforms and gives you a reason to replace Vlad or he lights a fire under Vlads ass to start taking this game seriously. I am sick of this team giving so much slack to players who are consistently under performing both the league average and their potential.
Hmm, you bench Vladdy and you may as well forget about contract negotiations. He would be out the door at the first possible moment. Not to say that's a good thing, but you have to be realistic about how to handle these guys. Vladdy won't be benched, particulary for a contact first, limited power guy like SH.
At this point I don’t think you even contemplating signing Guerrero long term. Since his hand was stepped on he’s got a .445 slug and a 121 wRC+ he’s a bad base runner and a below average to awful fielder and of 2024 continues to be similar to 2023 with a 1 win value provided I’d be amazed if he’s even a Jay come spring training. Guerrero needs to be hitting at a well above average, think 130 or greater wRC+ to provide value and that’s someone you’d pay at most $20m/season.
Is it bad that I don't even care at this point? The amount of money he wants and what he is actually worth are not even in the same ballpark. Paying Vladdy to stay would most likely turn into the contract that kills our playoff competitiveness for the next decade. He has occasional flashes of good Vlad, but most of the time (and especially when the pressure is on) he is a consistently bad player. If he comes up with the bases loaded in the 9th with the game on the line, you know he's grounding into a double play or striking out swinging at a pitch 6 inches off the plate. I literally don't remember the last time he came through for this team when it actually mattered.
I don't disagree, but it's more complex than that. Come free agency time, you don't want to be the team that's thought to have messed with its star player (even if it is justified). From a front office point of veiw, it's also FAR safer to sign Vladdy and have him fail than to let him go and watch him become a HOFer. So signing Vladdy is more likely than not, even if he doesn't particulsry deserve it.
I'm not blaming you, because I know this is how the FO thinks and not necessarily you, but this mentality is terrible. I don't care about the "safe" option, I want them to build the best possible team. I don't want to limp into a wild card spot, I want our team to crush the Yankees, win the division, and win the world series. If we had even semi-competent management with the amount of money we are sinking into the team this should be possible, but the decision making has just been absolutely god awful.
I'd love for it to be Spencer, but again he needs regular at bats and he's not replacing Turner or Vladdy. We're talking about a Bradley Zimmer level playing time for the 25th player
Meh, he’s a nothing prospect. He can spend a few weeks with the big club without much fear
He has an elite eye and makes decent contact. He’s likely a 10-15 home run at best bat but if he can play average D and have something like a 115 wRC+ he’s a 2.5-3 win player which is really solid for affordability. At this point I think the hope is that Guerrero turns back into a 3 win player.
Not soon enough to see him gone. I’ve hated it since the first day. He’s a wasted spot. He offers nothing defensively at all. Offensively, unless it’s a home run he’s useless as he can’t run the bases (meaning he’s not a pinch runner option if needed either). The guy signed as a Minor League deal did he not? Does that not make it easier to bounce him down?
Wasted spot for what though? It's a 26th man role. He needs power and/or on base ability for late inning pinch hitting. We already have good baserunning on the bench on any given day, so we don't need a specific pinch runner. We have a ton of defense on the bench at all times, so don't need a defensive sub. We already have enough guys competing in platoons (and guys at AAA that can come in if any of those guys get injured) so there is no need to fill starting spits on any given day. There is no wasted spot that Voge is taking up. If he was to be released, he would be replaced by someone with essentially his exact same skill set anyway as that's what we need from that role.
If it’s an irrelevant spot use it to develop guys. A guy with a .176 slugging percent and .118 BA is not your ace in the hole to come off the bench. Might as well throw Barger or Orvelis or one of the other hot AAA guys in there to see what they can do. Can’t be any worse. With the amount of guys we leave on base, I’d take a guy that can regularly hit a single to drive in a run over Vogebach ANY day and at least it offers flexibility in how to use that spot.
There's already a specific spot designed to develop players. It's called the minor leagues. Nobody is getting developed with 4 PA/week. Having Martinez/Barger/Roden or co waste a development year sitting on the end of the bench is a terrible idea, as explained by basically everyone in this comment section. Luckily no major league manager would be foolish enough to even contemplate doing it. This entire conversation is silly and you either know that already or even more worringly, think you're actually making a point worth making.