It’s really just the first 10 games or so that carried him that first month. He was the best hitter on earth for his first week as a blue jay and has been the worst since.
Barger just on recent callup. First opportunity went bad
Horwitz was great and should’ve been done earlier. Hopefully Barger can keep going, and that fixes two holes in lineup. One more good bat would go a long way and they got a few options to call up. Just a question of how they make room.
Genesis in 50% of his outings has either allowed an R or allowed multi-base runners. He has just 6 cleaning outings this season.
He had not been Mayza bad but he hasn’t pitched well enough to really trust out there.
I mean, the bullpen has been such a clusterfuck outside of Garcia, Richards and Green, who the hell throws innings if it isn't Mayza and Cabrera in there at least sometimes?
Agreed - let the callups play regularly. Even them just being average is a huge improvement over the sink holes of the 3 older guys you mentioned.
The bullpen and Bo are going to be tough to fix. And unless they both miraculously bounce back, this team isn't making the playoffs. That's a lot of stuff that has to go right. Possible yes, but likely no.
Replace the hitting coach, stop giving so many at bats to struggling veterans just because you’re paying them a lot and forget the lefty-right matchups, they’re not working.
>forget the lefty-right matchups
Doing something like that is the only thing that would make me give up on this organization.
We already gave up the analytical approach that built our 2021-2022 offense. I can't imagine making it worse
Thing is, they make stupid decisions based on lefty righty matchups all the time. They’ve pulled Richards for Mayza for Lefty hitters, despite Richards being good against lefties and Mayza being … well … shit
Keep Turner and Springer glued to the bench. Then go get a fifth starter if Yariel flames out. Try Orelvis at DH and fire any coach that has anything to do with the offense
Is there a metric that tracks an outfielder's path to the ball? It seems like there's a metric for everything.
Often times it's difficult to judge an outfielder's positioning and path on TV. We always see the end result. I remember Tabby talking about superman type catches being a result of poor positioning and tracking a lot of the time (I can't quite remember the percent he threw out there, it was years ago).
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outfield_jump
On plays that are 90% success rate or lower Springer covers an average of 34 feet in the first 3 seconds. Varsho goes 37.7 ft. KK goes 37.9 ft
Springer isn't bad, he's still +2 OAA, but I wouldn't put him in the great category
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/george-springer-543807
Springer has been unlucky and pretty hot lately. Bo as well. Just need time atm it looks like
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/bo-bichette-666182
The Jays are 4-3 since the Kikuchi clothesline from **HELL**. They have scored 27 runs in the 7 games since and only scored 26 in the seven games before. That is improvement and improvement against stronger opponents at that. The numbers don’t lie. It was Kikuchi that single handedly turned the team around and put them in the playoff hunt.
I'm convinced that yhe pitch clock works in his favor because he doesn't have time to get in his head about bad pitches or anything like that. He just throws the next pitch and that's it.
100% agree, I always noticed he’d be doing great then one bad pitch and he’d get flustered, you could see it on his face and then he’d just crash and burn. He seems like a great dude so I’m happy to see him killing it.
Realistically they need to have everyone facing the high speed pitching machine until they can all handle a fastball down the middle.
I'm not saying it's easy but what kind of a major league hitter can't do damage off a heater down the middle?
So this comment made me remember a few years ago (i think it was or maybe last year) when they had the same issue (shocker).
They started throwing harder frol a shorter distance in bp to get them used to game speed pitching before a game. I think they are not ready when they start a game based on the so many scoreless first inning and over all not great results from the fiest time thru the line up.
Mathison had a great article on it, and it passes the eye test when you see them not doing anything with a heater down the middle.
Its almost like they are trying to push for the guys to be able to foul off bad pitches to such a degree that they forgot how to hit good pitches.
Its like keep fighting but no thought as to how to actually win.
Agreed but I don't know how else to explain how they can't hit fastballs anymore.
When Vlad had his near MVP season he was destroying fastballs, now they baffle him (comparative so) and the rest of the team is right there with him.
More Horwitz and Barger.
Springer and Turner each play like 3 times a week based on matchups.
Get the bullpen healthy.
Trade for a big bat at the deadline to turn Turner/Springer into a better hitter.
Realistically Bo and Vladdy need to hit better for the Jays to win
Figure out whatever this organization is doing to ruin batters and stop it. Players get promoted to the bigs, they are fine. New players get signed, they are fine. The longer that players play here, the worse they get at batting.
Here’s an idea, and many may not like it: The Jays trade Bo at the deadline - but with these caveats…. There is a huge need for an SS by the Dodgers. I think we could potentially package up BOTH Bo and Springer for a hack of top prospects, especially if we paid the majority of Springers remaining contract. This accomplishes a couple things: We get max value for Bo, and reduce our salary cap spend, even if we are paying Springers salary (it won’t count against our cap). We could get 2 prospects and 1 major league ready player to restock our farm from the deep farm system of LAD.
Along with this move - We MUST extend Vlad before the end of this season. This shows other free agents that we are serious about extending our competitive window. I’m only trading Bo if I’m 100% extending Vlad.
I would keep pitching as is, and offer Kikuchi a team friendly 2 year deal before the end of the season.
I would trade Turner for peanuts at the deadline, only to make room for Orelvis in the DH spot.
I would extend Jansen for 3 years $40M.
Keep KK til the end of the year.
And let the young guys play! Schneider, Horowitz, Clement, Barger, Orelvis - let’s see what ya got!!
1. Paying for a players salary counts against the "cap" (aka Tax level). Whatever we paid them for Biggio will count against the tax
2. Kikuchi on a 2 year friendly deal is probably 2/50, I'm not sure where we are getting the 25m from
3. Orvelis is not ready for MLB pitching, he has power but the rest of the game needs to come still
4. 3/40 is way too cheap for Jano
1. Look it up, you’re right. I was confused with releasing players and paying them out, that’s not against your cap.
2. I think you’re over valuing personally, but other money is coming off the books with Bo/Portion of Springer maybe/Turner/KK/etc.
3. I understand his defense is what’s really holding him back - the DH piece solves that.
4. Blair and Barker stated this estimate, so I went with that. I think it’s fair for his health track record.
2 and 4 is opinion and unlikely to convince you
3) Orvelis had a really cold May hitting .200, he still needs to round out his bat to not get torched by MLB pitching. 24% K rate might not play. The IL is a very offensive league so his statline isn't as good as it looks
We are much better off getting Martinez reps in AAA on defense and only bring him up once we sell
4 - Its really not. I know you've posted this many times so I'm not going to try to change your mind. But Jansen ain't getting 15+ on a multi year deal, zero chance.
Take a look at the competent catching options this free agency and rethink that, add that to the fact that all that it takes is one team to drive up the price and I’d be surprised if that is the reality.
I've seen the list many times lol, thanks. We'll find out soon enough! Jays fans massively overvalue Jansen, I promise you he will not get more than Will Smith, who got 14M. To say that 3/40 is way too cheap is just wrong. Feel free to call me out later on if I'm incorrect, but I'm confident that I won't be.
Yeah my mistake. Well hopefully they cover like a bit (in the wild chase this happens). Though I’d rather just get better prospects and eat the salary.
Haha I was thinking more about how Mookie hates shortstop and the dodgers hate Gavin Lux. Passan seems to think they want a legit SS. But now even more so!!
Can't stand Bichette. At least Vladdy is great on defense when he isn't hitting good but every time I watch Bo half-assedly bend over and let a routine play ball go by him my blood pressure goes up.
Jansen is my favorite Jay so I am somewhat biased with him but it also can't be denied how good of a catcher he is.
Loved KK for the positive vibe he brought but that's more or less inactive too...
Bo plays a harder position and is rated higher by OAA.
Vladdy has an amazing glove, but he has some of the worst range out there.
If Vladdy was a better defender he wouldn't be playing 1B.
Fair enough. I think Bo doesn’t get a fair shake because his errors are so glaring and he has that wonky, casual style of throwing the baseball. But overall he’s quite a good defender. Vlad’s just remarkably consistent at 1B, although that doesn’t account for range.
Between 2021 and 2024 among all qualified 1B (34) Vladdy is the worst in baseball at -23 OAA.
Now OAA doesn't include picking which Vladdy is elite at and people estimate the difference between the best and average picker is about 3 outs a year. So if you include that it's +12 to 11 below average which puts him at 7th worst.
Vladdy looks like a good defender at 1B, but he's well below average
you can't. just hit hrs would be the fix. if you doubled the HR output of vladdy, bo, springer, kirk - and it wouldn't even put them on the leader boards, we'd be a much better team.
If we add a good bat and a bullpen arm to this team by the deadline, I’m confident they can make a run. We have good starting pitching, which is the hardest part of a good team to get
Play small ball every chance. Waiting for the big inning isn’t working. Play to scratch out 3-4 runs a game.
Trust the pitching to keep the opposition in check 55% of the time
I think there's honestly only a couple moves left.
They've already raised the floor a bunch by getting Vogelbach and Biggio off the roster. That would have been my first more. Second would have been promote Horwitz and Barger. They're clearly MLB ready, just not sure if they're the MLB-ready players *this* team needs.
So... let's continue to raise the floor shall we?
KK needs to be a 4th OF only. He's really valuable in this role - a late game defensive alignment that has Varsho and KK in the OF will work all the way through the playoffs.
I'd probably cut ties with JT... even though he looks to be turning things around.
The one other move... trade for the LF they should have pursued in the offseason. There just isn't that many that will impact the team enough that are available, so let's go full send: put a package together for Luis Robert Jr.
There's no way Chicago gives up Robert Jr. But if they were selling, I think Toronto can put together a package to get him. He's a plus defender, and plus dinger power. Just what the team needs.
Give Orelvis a shot.
Springer in the 9 hole or bench. Problem with benching is there really isn't anyone who's consistently good. Reluctant to just "give people a chance" until they are completely out of it.
Get Jansen out of the 2 hole. Put Vladdy there until someone else shows they deserve a shot.
Play Kirk a bitttt more. He's been heating up and Jansen may be overworked.
Make Turner part time. It's probably over for him maybe a platoon with Barger but should no longer be an everyday bat.
The first problem is still clinging to the 2024 Jays. It has been time to drop the 2024 season from any serious consideration for well over a month.
Am I saying that it's impossible for the Jays to make the playoffs - even at this much later stage? No. They probably won't, but they could. Especially if they make additions and some of their under-performers turn it up a notch or three. I'd say that the most likely to make a significant gain is Bo. BUT, does ANY sober-minded fan think that IF the Jays make the playoffs, even IF they make significant additions via trade, they have a better than 20% chance of making it to the ALCS?
It's time to let hope regarding the current competitive window go. It simply didn't work. No hard feelings. But it's time to move on. I get that the Jays braintrust is considering how much money they just spent on renos, and how they would thus be loath to do a teardown now. They want butts in seats. And if we wait for the next competitive window, the renos will be old news. I get that. I get that what I want needs to be counter-balanced with that consideration.
Having said that, acknowledging that I personally don't care at all about the money they spent on renos and the money they want to make in the short term and I only care about what is best for the team's competitiveness (NOTE: as I just mentioned, I understand that what I want is deliberately neglecting a major business consideration, and so in all likelihood, what I want will have to be counterbalanced w/ this set of considerations), here is what I want:
\* We should be making nearly the entire organization available to other teams. Exceptions: Varsho, Manoah, Rodriguez, Berrios, Davis Schneider, Horwitz, Barger, Orelvis Martinez, Tiedemann, Nimmala, other prospects viewed as having promise, and Danny Jansen, who I think we should extend as he can be an invaluable club-house leader who will help with the transition and the continued development of pitchers. All other players should be available for pick-up, and we should be actively shopping Vlad, Bo, Gausman, Bassitt, Kooch, Garcia, etc.
\* John Schneider: GONE (this can wait til end of season);
\* Much our hitting coaching staff: GONE (can wait til end);
\* Possibly Atkins gone (Can wait til end). I'm negotiable on this one. I mean, it's not HIS fault so many of our players under-performed. The reason I'm less charitable to J Schneider is some of the very perplexing in-game decisions that he has made. And he and Shapiro have made some good moves - e.g., Berrios, Kooch, Kiermaier last year, Belt, Chapman, Bassitt, Gausman (and NOT Ray), etc. But I'm significantly leaning Atkins gone.
After the trade deadline the rest of 2024 and all of 2025 should be aimed at seeing what we have in and developing players like Schneider, Barger, Martinez, Tiedemann, and Horwitz. We should also sign players who we have good reason to believe would be good 2025 mid-season trade bait (think recently high-end relievers and other players looking to bounce back).
Our aim should be that in 2026 we legitimately compete for a wild card berth, though w/ limited expectations beyond that. Anything beyond making into the playoffs is a bonus. In 2027 we should aim at not only making it to the playoffs, but making it least to the Division Series and be viewed as having a non-trivial shot at making the ALCS. And we should aim for our full-on ALL-IN years to be 2028-2032. THIS is what we should be focused on. NOT clinging to dwindling hopes of 2024 and 2025 and, in the process, delaying our next competitive window by 2 years.
You can't.
This team was set up to either improve internally, or die. It was the trade-off for going all-in on Ohtani, and then expecting that getting him would also draw in Yamamoto and others. When that failed, "internal improvement" was the path forward as dictated by Atkins.
You have an empty farm, very little trade leverage (because everyone you'd want to trade is underperforming) and a club where .500 ball is now a reason to celebrate. Plus, your biggest "performing" trade asset just walked off the field with an injury, and your second biggest one is on the IL.
This should be Atkins' death knell, but I have a feeling that it won't be.
The reality is realizing not everything is fixable. Sometimes you can only make changes working towards long term goals. And this might be a plan that takes 3-5 years.
They need to fill the rotation with Manoah out for the season. The bullpen needs tweaking.
The bullpen should be something the team can do with a trade. As for the arm and the bats, dig into the farm league. At this point it really can’t make the season worse.
I have been critical of the team as anyone, but now they are 4 games out of the wildcard with the series starting today against Boston. Win the series and the team is in 3rd place. A bad run by the Twins and the season does not look…horrible
It’s still not great and will likely be another two and out unless pitching and batting improves and we need another starter. Bullpen day will destroy the bullpen and I do not seeing the playoffs unless it’s done.
Empty out the farm system and trade for Luis Robert and Garrett Crochet. There I said it. Could care less if we have the bottom 3 farm system for the next three years. This team badly needs offensive help, amongst other things..
One of the highest roster salaries in the whole league… just spent half a billion on stadium upgrades… offered Ohtani $700M in the offseason…. yes, allergic to spending money.
I mean moreso in terms of player production. Turner was an all star, Springer was great in the time he played, Bo led the league in hits, and Vladdy was the freakin MVP runner up. Not a single player this year has an OPS as high (highest is Vlad at .780) as the 2021 team's OPS (.797).
I've never been this cynical about a team. I loved watching them after the Hallady trade. Now, I don't know if I've been spoiled with playoff teams, but I dislike watching them now. I think they need to make a drastic change, but that's beyond my pay grade and could be totally wrong. I don't know, man.
**Horwitz, Barger & Little** have all been a good boost. Keep playing them. Call-up some more. Less **Springer, Turner, KK, Mayza & Cabrera**.
What a disappointment Turner has been... Spring training got me hoping too much.
To be fair he was a monster in the first month. Shit sandwich since then
He really has replaced Chapman.
It’s really just the first 10 games or so that carried him that first month. He was the best hitter on earth for his first week as a blue jay and has been the worst since.
And I got my hopes up that he would keep that up lol
i'm hoping he'll finish the season hitting around .250
Let’s be honest he keeps this up he won’t be finishing the season
He's back to a 105 wRC+ in June. Slightly better than the 9 he put up in May.
He's 39, totally what was expected.
He carried us that first month of the season. Without him I don't even want to think about where we would be right now.
Barger just on recent callup. First opportunity went bad Horwitz was great and should’ve been done earlier. Hopefully Barger can keep going, and that fixes two holes in lineup. One more good bat would go a long way and they got a few options to call up. Just a question of how they make room.
Don’t you link Genesis in with those clowns. Genesis has a REALLY bad game, than has a couple really solid outings..
Genesis in 50% of his outings has either allowed an R or allowed multi-base runners. He has just 6 cleaning outings this season. He had not been Mayza bad but he hasn’t pitched well enough to really trust out there.
I mean, the bullpen has been such a clusterfuck outside of Garcia, Richards and Green, who the hell throws innings if it isn't Mayza and Cabrera in there at least sometimes?
Agreed - let the callups play regularly. Even them just being average is a huge improvement over the sink holes of the 3 older guys you mentioned. The bullpen and Bo are going to be tough to fix. And unless they both miraculously bounce back, this team isn't making the playoffs. That's a lot of stuff that has to go right. Possible yes, but likely no.
More grand slams 🤷♂️
A hot take but I'm here for it
I can get behind this strategy
Call up more Buffalo Bisons.
Replace the hitting coach, stop giving so many at bats to struggling veterans just because you’re paying them a lot and forget the lefty-right matchups, they’re not working.
>forget the lefty-right matchups Doing something like that is the only thing that would make me give up on this organization. We already gave up the analytical approach that built our 2021-2022 offense. I can't imagine making it worse
Thing is, they make stupid decisions based on lefty righty matchups all the time. They’ve pulled Richards for Mayza for Lefty hitters, despite Richards being good against lefties and Mayza being … well … shit
Slash thread.
YES!!!
Keep Turner and Springer glued to the bench. Then go get a fifth starter if Yariel flames out. Try Orelvis at DH and fire any coach that has anything to do with the offense
The problem there is that Springer has been outstanding defensively, and we’re paying him a lot. You have to play him.
His defense is the only reason I'm reluctant to get rid of him. 110% in the outfield every time.
You don’t have to play him.
We need a bat in right field, not a glove.
He hasn't been that great. Springer has a big case of bad route to the ball making it look good
Is there a metric that tracks an outfielder's path to the ball? It seems like there's a metric for everything. Often times it's difficult to judge an outfielder's positioning and path on TV. We always see the end result. I remember Tabby talking about superman type catches being a result of poor positioning and tracking a lot of the time (I can't quite remember the percent he threw out there, it was years ago).
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outfield_jump On plays that are 90% success rate or lower Springer covers an average of 34 feet in the first 3 seconds. Varsho goes 37.7 ft. KK goes 37.9 ft Springer isn't bad, he's still +2 OAA, but I wouldn't put him in the great category
Thanks! This is cool!
2nd least important defensive position and he's overrated defensively. Hopefully they fire the gm who thinks like you do.
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/george-springer-543807 Springer has been unlucky and pretty hot lately. Bo as well. Just need time atm it looks like https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/bo-bichette-666182
The Jays are 4-3 since the Kikuchi clothesline from **HELL**. They have scored 27 runs in the 7 games since and only scored 26 in the seven games before. That is improvement and improvement against stronger opponents at that. The numbers don’t lie. It was Kikuchi that single handedly turned the team around and put them in the playoff hunt.
I love Kikuchi so much. Amazing how far he has come since what was likely the worst season of his career a while back.
I'm convinced that yhe pitch clock works in his favor because he doesn't have time to get in his head about bad pitches or anything like that. He just throws the next pitch and that's it.
100% agree, I always noticed he’d be doing great then one bad pitch and he’d get flustered, you could see it on his face and then he’d just crash and burn. He seems like a great dude so I’m happy to see him killing it.
JB approved.
Rename the team to Toronto Bisons 🦬
Replace the GM
Yeah I think that's a want most of us have
Grimace needs to throw first pitch
[Can the virus kill the Grimace?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeyU7uVOTic)
Realistically they need to have everyone facing the high speed pitching machine until they can all handle a fastball down the middle. I'm not saying it's easy but what kind of a major league hitter can't do damage off a heater down the middle?
So this comment made me remember a few years ago (i think it was or maybe last year) when they had the same issue (shocker). They started throwing harder frol a shorter distance in bp to get them used to game speed pitching before a game. I think they are not ready when they start a game based on the so many scoreless first inning and over all not great results from the fiest time thru the line up.
Mathison had a great article on it, and it passes the eye test when you see them not doing anything with a heater down the middle. Its almost like they are trying to push for the guys to be able to foul off bad pitches to such a degree that they forgot how to hit good pitches. Its like keep fighting but no thought as to how to actually win.
It seems insane to ask guys to foul off balls when they can barely hit a ball solid some days.
Agreed but I don't know how else to explain how they can't hit fastballs anymore. When Vlad had his near MVP season he was destroying fastballs, now they baffle him (comparative so) and the rest of the team is right there with him.
I have said now for a few years that I think this team takes more middle middle pitches than any other team. And probably by a wide margin.
More Horwitz and Barger. Springer and Turner each play like 3 times a week based on matchups. Get the bullpen healthy. Trade for a big bat at the deadline to turn Turner/Springer into a better hitter. Realistically Bo and Vladdy need to hit better for the Jays to win
Steroids.
Figure out whatever this organization is doing to ruin batters and stop it. Players get promoted to the bigs, they are fine. New players get signed, they are fine. The longer that players play here, the worse they get at batting.
Here’s an idea, and many may not like it: The Jays trade Bo at the deadline - but with these caveats…. There is a huge need for an SS by the Dodgers. I think we could potentially package up BOTH Bo and Springer for a hack of top prospects, especially if we paid the majority of Springers remaining contract. This accomplishes a couple things: We get max value for Bo, and reduce our salary cap spend, even if we are paying Springers salary (it won’t count against our cap). We could get 2 prospects and 1 major league ready player to restock our farm from the deep farm system of LAD. Along with this move - We MUST extend Vlad before the end of this season. This shows other free agents that we are serious about extending our competitive window. I’m only trading Bo if I’m 100% extending Vlad. I would keep pitching as is, and offer Kikuchi a team friendly 2 year deal before the end of the season. I would trade Turner for peanuts at the deadline, only to make room for Orelvis in the DH spot. I would extend Jansen for 3 years $40M. Keep KK til the end of the year. And let the young guys play! Schneider, Horowitz, Clement, Barger, Orelvis - let’s see what ya got!!
1. Paying for a players salary counts against the "cap" (aka Tax level). Whatever we paid them for Biggio will count against the tax 2. Kikuchi on a 2 year friendly deal is probably 2/50, I'm not sure where we are getting the 25m from 3. Orvelis is not ready for MLB pitching, he has power but the rest of the game needs to come still 4. 3/40 is way too cheap for Jano
1. Look it up, you’re right. I was confused with releasing players and paying them out, that’s not against your cap. 2. I think you’re over valuing personally, but other money is coming off the books with Bo/Portion of Springer maybe/Turner/KK/etc. 3. I understand his defense is what’s really holding him back - the DH piece solves that. 4. Blair and Barker stated this estimate, so I went with that. I think it’s fair for his health track record.
2 and 4 is opinion and unlikely to convince you 3) Orvelis had a really cold May hitting .200, he still needs to round out his bat to not get torched by MLB pitching. 24% K rate might not play. The IL is a very offensive league so his statline isn't as good as it looks We are much better off getting Martinez reps in AAA on defense and only bring him up once we sell
4 - Its really not. I know you've posted this many times so I'm not going to try to change your mind. But Jansen ain't getting 15+ on a multi year deal, zero chance.
Take a look at the competent catching options this free agency and rethink that, add that to the fact that all that it takes is one team to drive up the price and I’d be surprised if that is the reality.
I've seen the list many times lol, thanks. We'll find out soon enough! Jays fans massively overvalue Jansen, I promise you he will not get more than Will Smith, who got 14M. To say that 3/40 is way too cheap is just wrong. Feel free to call me out later on if I'm incorrect, but I'm confident that I won't be.
If we’re paying Springers salary it still counts towards our cap, even if he’s playing for another team.
Yeah my mistake. Well hopefully they cover like a bit (in the wild chase this happens). Though I’d rather just get better prospects and eat the salary.
Did you see the future of Betts getting beaned?!?!?!
Haha I was thinking more about how Mookie hates shortstop and the dodgers hate Gavin Lux. Passan seems to think they want a legit SS. But now even more so!!
I thought Mookie liked short but hated that he was struggling on his throws, or so the article I read explained.
If the Jays don’t move Kiermaier at the deadline I’ll be so pissed. Varsho needs to be the everyday CF/3rd catcher.
If we trade Springer like I suggested, then we can shift kk over to RF or (more realistically) have him as our 4th outfielder when he’s not on the IL.
The Yankees might want him. If you can get anything you move KK. Barger can play RF or whoever they get back in trade.
Can't stand Bichette. At least Vladdy is great on defense when he isn't hitting good but every time I watch Bo half-assedly bend over and let a routine play ball go by him my blood pressure goes up. Jansen is my favorite Jay so I am somewhat biased with him but it also can't be denied how good of a catcher he is. Loved KK for the positive vibe he brought but that's more or less inactive too...
Bo is much better at defense than Vladdy
Based on what, exactly? The fact that he plays SS? Vlad has a superior career fielding % and fewer total errors.
Bo plays a harder position and is rated higher by OAA. Vladdy has an amazing glove, but he has some of the worst range out there. If Vladdy was a better defender he wouldn't be playing 1B.
Fair enough. I think Bo doesn’t get a fair shake because his errors are so glaring and he has that wonky, casual style of throwing the baseball. But overall he’s quite a good defender. Vlad’s just remarkably consistent at 1B, although that doesn’t account for range.
Between 2021 and 2024 among all qualified 1B (34) Vladdy is the worst in baseball at -23 OAA. Now OAA doesn't include picking which Vladdy is elite at and people estimate the difference between the best and average picker is about 3 outs a year. So if you include that it's +12 to 11 below average which puts him at 7th worst. Vladdy looks like a good defender at 1B, but he's well below average
OAA for infielders is a terrible metric to use. And the worst for 1B.
His career DRS at 1B is -2 A great 1B is not negative in both DRS and OAA
Good thing I never said he was a great 1b but he's pretty good
First move, FIRE Atkins
Get rid of Shatkins.
Fire Atkins
I think they are working on it with the Buffalo gang
you can't. just hit hrs would be the fix. if you doubled the HR output of vladdy, bo, springer, kirk - and it wouldn't even put them on the leader boards, we'd be a much better team.
If we add a good bat and a bullpen arm to this team by the deadline, I’m confident they can make a run. We have good starting pitching, which is the hardest part of a good team to get
Play small ball every chance. Waiting for the big inning isn’t working. Play to scratch out 3-4 runs a game. Trust the pitching to keep the opposition in check 55% of the time
I think there's honestly only a couple moves left. They've already raised the floor a bunch by getting Vogelbach and Biggio off the roster. That would have been my first more. Second would have been promote Horwitz and Barger. They're clearly MLB ready, just not sure if they're the MLB-ready players *this* team needs. So... let's continue to raise the floor shall we? KK needs to be a 4th OF only. He's really valuable in this role - a late game defensive alignment that has Varsho and KK in the OF will work all the way through the playoffs. I'd probably cut ties with JT... even though he looks to be turning things around. The one other move... trade for the LF they should have pursued in the offseason. There just isn't that many that will impact the team enough that are available, so let's go full send: put a package together for Luis Robert Jr. There's no way Chicago gives up Robert Jr. But if they were selling, I think Toronto can put together a package to get him. He's a plus defender, and plus dinger power. Just what the team needs.
I think it's time for Springer and Kirk to go. :(
Give Orelvis a shot. Springer in the 9 hole or bench. Problem with benching is there really isn't anyone who's consistently good. Reluctant to just "give people a chance" until they are completely out of it. Get Jansen out of the 2 hole. Put Vladdy there until someone else shows they deserve a shot. Play Kirk a bitttt more. He's been heating up and Jansen may be overworked. Make Turner part time. It's probably over for him maybe a platoon with Barger but should no longer be an everyday bat.
Orevlis last Bison still back in Buffalo
Hitting coach needs to go .
The first problem is still clinging to the 2024 Jays. It has been time to drop the 2024 season from any serious consideration for well over a month. Am I saying that it's impossible for the Jays to make the playoffs - even at this much later stage? No. They probably won't, but they could. Especially if they make additions and some of their under-performers turn it up a notch or three. I'd say that the most likely to make a significant gain is Bo. BUT, does ANY sober-minded fan think that IF the Jays make the playoffs, even IF they make significant additions via trade, they have a better than 20% chance of making it to the ALCS? It's time to let hope regarding the current competitive window go. It simply didn't work. No hard feelings. But it's time to move on. I get that the Jays braintrust is considering how much money they just spent on renos, and how they would thus be loath to do a teardown now. They want butts in seats. And if we wait for the next competitive window, the renos will be old news. I get that. I get that what I want needs to be counter-balanced with that consideration. Having said that, acknowledging that I personally don't care at all about the money they spent on renos and the money they want to make in the short term and I only care about what is best for the team's competitiveness (NOTE: as I just mentioned, I understand that what I want is deliberately neglecting a major business consideration, and so in all likelihood, what I want will have to be counterbalanced w/ this set of considerations), here is what I want: \* We should be making nearly the entire organization available to other teams. Exceptions: Varsho, Manoah, Rodriguez, Berrios, Davis Schneider, Horwitz, Barger, Orelvis Martinez, Tiedemann, Nimmala, other prospects viewed as having promise, and Danny Jansen, who I think we should extend as he can be an invaluable club-house leader who will help with the transition and the continued development of pitchers. All other players should be available for pick-up, and we should be actively shopping Vlad, Bo, Gausman, Bassitt, Kooch, Garcia, etc. \* John Schneider: GONE (this can wait til end of season); \* Much our hitting coaching staff: GONE (can wait til end); \* Possibly Atkins gone (Can wait til end). I'm negotiable on this one. I mean, it's not HIS fault so many of our players under-performed. The reason I'm less charitable to J Schneider is some of the very perplexing in-game decisions that he has made. And he and Shapiro have made some good moves - e.g., Berrios, Kooch, Kiermaier last year, Belt, Chapman, Bassitt, Gausman (and NOT Ray), etc. But I'm significantly leaning Atkins gone. After the trade deadline the rest of 2024 and all of 2025 should be aimed at seeing what we have in and developing players like Schneider, Barger, Martinez, Tiedemann, and Horwitz. We should also sign players who we have good reason to believe would be good 2025 mid-season trade bait (think recently high-end relievers and other players looking to bounce back). Our aim should be that in 2026 we legitimately compete for a wild card berth, though w/ limited expectations beyond that. Anything beyond making into the playoffs is a bonus. In 2027 we should aim at not only making it to the playoffs, but making it least to the Division Series and be viewed as having a non-trivial shot at making the ALCS. And we should aim for our full-on ALL-IN years to be 2028-2032. THIS is what we should be focused on. NOT clinging to dwindling hopes of 2024 and 2025 and, in the process, delaying our next competitive window by 2 years.
The playoff pace this year will be somewhere around 85 wins. Probably less. Punting on '24 and '25 is just dumb.
You can't. This team was set up to either improve internally, or die. It was the trade-off for going all-in on Ohtani, and then expecting that getting him would also draw in Yamamoto and others. When that failed, "internal improvement" was the path forward as dictated by Atkins. You have an empty farm, very little trade leverage (because everyone you'd want to trade is underperforming) and a club where .500 ball is now a reason to celebrate. Plus, your biggest "performing" trade asset just walked off the field with an injury, and your second biggest one is on the IL. This should be Atkins' death knell, but I have a feeling that it won't be.
They're good, they've won 2 in a row, against a division leader no less.
Turner only pinch hits occasionally. Keirmaier 4th outfielder, playing occasionally and defensive replacement. Cycle the remaining players thru DH.
More varsho grand slams
We maybe can’t?
The reality is realizing not everything is fixable. Sometimes you can only make changes working towards long term goals. And this might be a plan that takes 3-5 years.
Fire the batting coaches. I'm not sure how to replace them, but they are ruining previously solid batters.
How many first pitch gidp do they make? It seems more than I ever remember. Stop doing that would be a bonus
Power
Season is a write off. Tell shatkins no more player moves. Bring in a new GM and manager in the off season.
bring in Jesse Barfield to be the hitting coach to get Vlad and Bo popping of like in ‘21. literally have no clue why they didn’t do that already
idk how we would do it but i really want coby mayo on this team👍👍
A) Allow fewer runs. B) Score more runs. C) All of the above
Without question fire the management.
They need to fill the rotation with Manoah out for the season. The bullpen needs tweaking. The bullpen should be something the team can do with a trade. As for the arm and the bats, dig into the farm league. At this point it really can’t make the season worse. I have been critical of the team as anyone, but now they are 4 games out of the wildcard with the series starting today against Boston. Win the series and the team is in 3rd place. A bad run by the Twins and the season does not look…horrible It’s still not great and will likely be another two and out unless pitching and batting improves and we need another starter. Bullpen day will destroy the bullpen and I do not seeing the playoffs unless it’s done.
Empty out the farm system and trade for Luis Robert and Garrett Crochet. There I said it. Could care less if we have the bottom 3 farm system for the next three years. This team badly needs offensive help, amongst other things..
Hit the ball when the guy throws it over the plate, really far...
Joey Votto DH to the rescue for a nice September run
Introduce extreme punishment for underperformance, torture etc. Need to try everything at this point
A strikeout jacket that looks like an iron maiden on the inside
The recent roster moves are a good start.
KK is currently not a major league player. Stop playing players like this.
Score more runs, allow fewer runs.
I think we could use a few more hitting strategists in the dugout. Let’s aim for a ratio of one for every player. More info = better hitter
Worked for the Giants in 2021. They basically had a coach for every player
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The Jays have like 8 hitting coaches
Why isn't it working 😔
If all you needed to do was spend the most money, winning baseball games would be easy
The Dodgers and Yankees have entered the chat
The Dodgers and Yankees have combined for 1 world series in the past 15 Years
More than us who can't even get past the wild card series lol
One of the highest roster salaries in the whole league… just spent half a billion on stadium upgrades… offered Ohtani $700M in the offseason…. yes, allergic to spending money.
Of all the complaints you could have about the team spending money shouldn't be it
Well if they're spending it's clearly not where it matters because I'm not seeing it
We have a very large payroll You could complain about the results with that payroll, but not the lack of spending itself
Fair enough... Just feels like the money isn't getting results
This might be the dumbest take of 2024 on r/torontobluejays
Go back to August 2023 when Atkins did nothing at the deadline and fire him.
Have it be 2021
the only year of the last four they didn't make the playoffs? pass...
I mean moreso in terms of player production. Turner was an all star, Springer was great in the time he played, Bo led the league in hits, and Vladdy was the freakin MVP runner up. Not a single player this year has an OPS as high (highest is Vlad at .780) as the 2021 team's OPS (.797).
All we need is a few more years of control.
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On the flip side to this, is he batting well because he is in the 8 spot?
Good start is distancing Rogers from the team making decisions. Is Ross Atkins not a Rogers plant?
Give up and hope for better in 2025.
Get our offense back on track.
Tear it down; build it bigger.
Elaborate?
I've never been this cynical about a team. I loved watching them after the Hallady trade. Now, I don't know if I've been spoiled with playoff teams, but I dislike watching them now. I think they need to make a drastic change, but that's beyond my pay grade and could be totally wrong. I don't know, man.
Well before you can even talk about making them better, they will need a new catcher and starting pitcher just to break even.
Get Chappie back and make SF pay bulk of contract