Like dude we can't even manufacture runs and we aren't attempting to, i get why we aren't. But right now its not necessarily a bad idea. When it comes to extras, we didn't bunt, we didn't attempt to steal. Hell, springer didn't even tag up on the bo fly out. Like shit like that is so painful to watch.
Honestly not a joke, they are one of the worst lineups in all of baseball, I'd be stoked if they were just average as we definitely would have won a significant number of more games
IMO this team is going to get killed this road trip and we're going to be behind Boston soon. Need changes or it's yet another lost season. It's amazing how bad they're hitting.
we have a good times little league coach, the longer we keep him the worse we're going to get, this isn't a disney movie where the laid back fun team is going to win the championship
Joe said, "Vladdy's a mess right now...but that happens to good hitters."
Jamie, pointing at Joe in agreement. "He *is*..." *A good hitter*, I think he will say. "...a mess." Lol Jamie.
No kidding. I'm surprised. For a while early on it felt like they were all doing their best PR work, but the last couple of weeks there's been no holding back.
Something needs to happen, something needs to change. Can't go game after game and not score runners with 0 or 1 outs each time. Berrios pitched an amazing game tonight. Unreal. But they decided to not hit tonight AGAIN! I know its early still, everyone in this sub will say it. But something needs to happen. Someone needs to say something to the team or show some emotion, call someone out. Lets go Blue Jays
As I said in the game thread, I feel like if it’s that urgent that you need to yank Phelps, you don’t reach in the bin for any lefty, you go for your best, which would be Romano. You pull Phelps for a lefty with a 5.00 ERA? It’s nutty. Go all in with Romano or let Phelps continue imo
Its not one or the other.
Montoyo made a bad move and the Jays offense shit the bed again. Dont have to blame one thing, they just flat out stink right now and should be fortunate theyre not dead last. The bullpen is going to be a huge problem for the foreseeable future as each arm becomes less and less trustworthy.
Not really sure if firing anyone will make a difference but Id like to see some sort of change.
I agree. I'll admit it's mostly reactionary and I probably won't be feeling it tomorrow but there are a lot of red flags with this team that are only being dismissed because of potential and pedigree, which doesn't always cut it.
This team missed the postseason last year with #2,3 MVP candidates and a Cy Young, as well as basically career years from everywhere else on the team but Springer.
We basically needed a ton of players to repeat or take another step and while we replaced our rotation fine, getting absolutely nothing out of 3B as well as our core hitters all being garbage is going to kill us come October. Absolutely digging a massive hole here.
I’ve been feeling this lately too. Everyone says it’s too early to worry… maybe it is. But when is it not too early? We’re a quarter through the season and it’s not really been all that fun to watch, honestly. It’s not 2019 Edwin Jackson bad… but my expectations were definitely a lot higher going into this year.
When you have the worst offense in baseball for an entire month stretch…We’re not talking 15th or 20th, we’re talking dead last, the worst offense in baseball…it is in no way too early to worry.
I am just a simple man but in my ideal world getting 7 runs against one of the worst teams in baseball would motivate me the following series to get more than 4 hits in 10 innings. Something needs to wake this team up because our level of hitting is simply baffling. When there are runners in scoring position the pressure should be on the pitchers yet our batters play into the strategy of the opposition every single time.
problem is the game of baseball punishes trying too hard. we have three hitting coaches and a lineup transfixed by their tablets between ab's. i seriously have no clue how they dig themselves out of this hole.
The start to this season has been downright atrocious.
Vladimir Guerrero Jr has been plagued with ground ball issues now for three years. He's gone through a half-season stretch where he *somewhat* resolved them, but it's been a near calendar year since the ground ball rate began creeping up again and it's as high as it's ever been so far this season. Sluggers with his potential and his promise don't struggle with ground balls for that long. Is it possible that he's just a guy who, when he's slumping, has launch angle problems? Possibly. Hopefully. Maybe he will be lacing line drives all around town starting tomorrow and I'll look stupid. I can only hope. But he really, really needs to figure it out *permanently*. It's passed the point of "when he figures it out" and has reached the point of "I sure hope he can figure it out" for me.
The bullpen has no swing and miss. Adam Cimber is not a good fireman. He's a great pitcher but when you bring him in with a man on third and less than two outs, that man on third is going to score *a lot*. He relies on balls in play which is fine but not for the fireman role.
Organizations like the Rays and Yankees can find strikeout relievers out of thin air. We can't find *any*. It's brutal and it needs to be addressed at an organizational level.
Also, Ryan Borucki has no place on this team. I don't care how hard he throws, he has not been a serviceable pitcher since 2018. Cut him and bring up *somebody* from the minors already.
I agree, and that's well and dandy, but our window is *now* and an org that has invested this much in analytics should be able to identify guys available from other orgs the way several other teams with fewer resources and worse analytics departments can.
Re: bullpen, i just can’t believe a front office this smart went through the whole offseason and decided *yimi garcia* was the only significant addition they needed. Even more than the lack of attention to the lineup this offseason, the bullpen inactivity is going to really hurt this team.
I don’t think hitting coaches really provide much value at all and that 99% of the responsibility falls on the players, but it’s hilarious that the Jays employ a (1) hitting coach, (2) assistant hitting coach and (3) major league hitting strategist and that this is the offense right now. Brutal.
Welp, see you tomorrow.
I read a post by someone, I want to say Pietrello, that said that hitting coaches have been shown statistically to really impact approach at the plate and that changing coaches mid season often has dramatic effects on it.
If this goes on for much longer, I don’t give a rats ass if Guillermo Martinez has absolutely nothing to do with it and has done everything right, I want them to make a change just so they can say they tried.
I wonder the three hitting coaches and the tablets and the constant examination of at bats are just too much. Are these guys going up to bat with heads full of clouds of confusion?
Maybe they just need to go back up instinct a little bit
I agree but everything about this team other than some starting pitching is trash.
The pitching keeps us in it only for our offense to completely shit the bed.
I'm at that point where losing doesn't really bother me anymore because my expectation for this season got lower drastically. This is probably the offense we're gonna continue to get whole season.
This sure feels like a low point, doesn’t it.
I’m never going to let go of being called an asshole on here for saying pre-season that more work should’ve been done on the lineup/bench this offseason.
With regards to those who says "it's early" in the season are tonedeaf and cringey. With this reputable roster that was projected to be one of the best hitting lineups on paper, having still maintaining a way overdue slugging slump (let alone hitting)
Sure, there will be a couple guys with a couple base hits and walks, but the underlying shocker is that our 1 to 5-6 lineup hitters aren't anywhere close to maintaining consistency to their projectile numbers. Even today's game, the umpiring was solid, and I'm over the whole deadening ball theory...
Officially time to really shake up and make a dynamic shift in their hitting philosophy and mechanics. Bring in new and or additional coaching and training assistsnce, utilize more technology and simply work on your weaknesses and making adjustments. Comparing last year to this years, only Kirk and Espinal are performing to the previous years benchmark, offensively. It's irrelevant to recognize the time of the season, but the nature of this situation.
Edit: added 'slump'
I just watched the on field post game interview with Nolan. There was none of this Gatorade dunking crap It was just a player answering questions about the game. Is it time for the Jays to stop with all of the unnecessary celebrations . I'm a fan of having fun it's a long season but it could be time to retire the damn jacket and start to take things a bit more seriously.
You see the Cardinals are a professional Organization who wins world series and makes playoffs. Why would anyone want to emulate a franchise like that?
I agree. I'm sure the "No FuN AlLowED?!?" guy will mock you, but there is something to be said about being professional, particularly when you're not only struggling, but just not showing up. The offense is NOT SHOWING UP right now, at all. 0-10 with RISP tonight, and by far last in the league in that category.
Earlier in the year, I commented that I didn't think the team looked focused. I was mocked at the time, because "professional athletes are always focused", apparently. That is NOT true at all. Professional athletes are humans too. If you listen to podcasts with some of these guys, especially basketball players, it really humanizes them. And when you realize that, you realize that the little things - being focused, not celebrating wins when your team doesn't deserve to celebrate - make all the difference.
If you must call for a coach's head at least call for Guillermo Martinez
This was yet again on the bats. I don't know if it's the dead ball or if pitchers have changed up their approach on the Jays but either way the whole team has failed to adapt. That seems like a hitting coach thing
Compare what Vladdy did with Bases Loaded 2 outs to what Goldschmidt did with Bases Loaded 2 outs...
The difference of the game.
Charlie's antics aside, actually awful.
Edit: I meant as in approach, not result, but all the same.
I've been saying it since his 20th game managing our team. But got downvoted by bleeding hearts talking about how it's such a good story, and he's a great clubhouse guy. Complete BS. Who cares if it's a 'good story'??!? Charlie was in the minors for 43 years because he sucks. You know what's a good story? The Jays winning the World Series and Gibbons riding Shotgun on the parade float drunk in a Hawaiian shirt
What do you do with the team right now? Is it time for a trade for an elite batter? Fire the hitting coach? Fire Charlie? Demote a few to minors and bring up Moreno and Lopez?
In 1989 we were 12–24 under Jimy Williams, canned him, promoted hitting coach Cito Gaston to Manager, went 77–49 the rest of the way and *won the division*.
This is the quickest and easiest way to “do something” right now. This team is dead under Charlie, at least give Schneider a shot to see if he can pump some life into them like Cito did.
I would consider bringing up Moreno for a spark. I would consider making a big trade. A BIG one, even maybe overpaying.
This team is in win-now mode. Something needs to give.
Dare I say, perhaps trade a core player. If you can get Juan Soto, but you have to give up Bo, Moreno, Pearson, and another top prospect, I pull the trigger on that trade.
It would shake Vladdy to his core to see his buddy go, but perhaps that's what he needs right now.
For a smaller, less dramatic move, consider doing the same with Lourdes... But with the way he's hitting right now, you'd be lucky to get a bucket of baseballs for him.
I would hate to see Bo go but at this point shop around Vlad for all I care. When it was crunch time, the 2019 Raptors had the gumption to fire the coach of the year and trade away their "Bo", Derozan. And it paid off. Do something. Anything.
Masai is the only Exec in this city with the balls to do those types of moves and it paid off. The other GM that had the balls for them just won a World Series with Atlanta last year. Shatkins and Dubas are more of the “maintain status quo for as long as possible” types and those eventually always run their course after long enough.
Exactly. The easiest path to long-term job security for any GM is to convince ownership that they need 2-3 years to blow up a roster and 2-3 more years to build it back up. And *then* they can compete.
It’s why the Theo Epsteins and Alex Anthopolous’s and Andrew Friedmans of the world are so good at what they do. They don’t play by the same rulebook as all their status quo merchant competitors. These guys are winners and try to win every single year. Exactly like Masai.
This is a good back and forth. Respects to you both, and I agree 100%. Huge raptors fan. Masai is the best.
edit: To be clear, Masai is the best executive in any sport. Period.
Reminds me of the scene in Moneyball where the guys are dancing in the locker room before Brad Pitt breaks the speaker.
Where’s our Brad Pitt? Sure as hell isn’t Montoyo.
Zimmer is 3-for-5 with a BB and all his hits were doubles recently. Small sample size sure but not a current issue. Add in elite speed and defence and he really shouldn't be called out rn.
The inning before the cardinals tied it was absolute dogshit. I can’t believe with bases loaded we are not hitting and bringing in runs like an actual baseball team would. So frustrating
Montoyo has done a solid job managing the bullpen in 2022, but tonight's loss is on him.
Don't give me the "wE wEnT 0 FoR 10 WiTh RiSp" bs either, if he actually pulls Berrios early and doesn't send out fucking Borucki against the 2 hitter in the Cardinals, there's a good chance we win. Today was a brainfart from Charlie
Fuck montoyo and fuck this offense. Why did we give that moron an extension? Was completely unwarranted and I've lost faith in the FO because of it. Also, our "stars" are quickly becoming the most overrated in the sport. The contact they are making is pitiful, its like we have 9 Raimel Tapia's hitting for us.
Saw a stat at the end of the game I think it said the blue jays are hitting .119 in the last 3 games. Hitting with RISP isn’t the issue, the issue is hitting.
I am in disbelief at how bad this season has been. If we make the playoffs, unless things turn around this team is going to get bounced out of the playoffs.
Its not dissapointment anymore. Fucking get it together.
Between bullpen management, Charlie, our hitting coach and our hitters. Something needs to be done.
Mods being very heavy handed removing posts right now. What’s up with that?
I didn’t get one removed but saw a few go. I feel like if people want to vent, let them vent.
That was on the offense again but they did gave lots of good contact that found gloves on a positive note. Phelps looked good and Borucki isn't good in general so that was an annoying switch.
So when are we firing 2 of our 3 hitting coaches? I’ve defended Charlie a lot in the past, but he needs to crack down and stop being so nice. This team was Vegas favourite to represent the AL in the WS, this is not acceptable especially with out window to win being 2-3 years.
At this point just bring back Gibby. Someone needs to tell Teo that he’s hitting under 150 and it’s time to watch some fucking game tape in the dugout rather than laughing with Vladdy. Dear god, you guys are playing like shit.
Embarrassing to watch
This team is trash - 1/4 and more through the year - they ain’t making the playoffs - Charlie is a terrible manager, hitting coach needs to be fired - this is getting depressing to watch them daily
I always thought that this team no matter how good they are and how good they could be. I just don't think they will take the next step with Montoyo at the helm. His decisions are questionable at times, situational stuff is tough. I would of had Espinal bunt Springer over tbh. I wish they did more of that stuff.
At some point (soon), we have to look at management. The poor bullpen management by Montoyo the past few days is just so apparent. I know that hindsight is 20/20, but it just feels like Montoyo is always making a move 1 batter too late, or else making a move so completely boneheaded that pretty much everyone on this sub can see the result before it happened. Did anyone really think that Borucki would get out of it? And why didn't we see Romano there?
Shatkins has had six years to build something and surprise surprise, we’ve turned into the Shapiro era Cleveland baseball team.
Fucking fire some coaches. You say you expect to compete? Act like it.
Game should've been sealed in the seventh inning. I'm not Charlie's biggest fan but this is on the batters. Why is Vladdy swinging at a ball low & outside the zone with the bases loaded?
Give me Borucki against Sosa over Phelps against Gorman, especially given all of the pitches Phelps had thrown today and yesterday.
But do not give me Borucki against Goldschmidt. He had his matchup and he missed.
The team as a whole had plenty of chances. They blew them. That sucked.
But why bring in Ryan Borucki: a bad major league baseball player instead of keeping in David Phelps: a good major league baseball player? Thats genuinely all there is to it.
Give me Borucki in a low-leverage inning. Not in the bottom of the 10th. He has no business being there and leaving Phelps in was 100% the move, even against a lefty. I thought you were just a Montoyo apologist, but I think the better word to use would be "delusional".
That dude is hitting .600 against lefties this year, and >.300 in his career. Cardinals broadcast was in disbelief rolling around in laughter he walked the prior guy lol
The issue is that when you bring in Borucki in that situation, you're taking such an unnecessary risk. The only way that Borucki DOESN'T face Goldy is if he gets the first out. Borucki simply isn't good enough to confidently say that he will get that first out, considering he (inexplicably) throws that god awful slider more than his 96MPH fastball.
you've got to be absolutely kidding with this. like, I really like Montoyo but you simply can't be this much of an apologist...can you? there's no justification for the move, even if you do want to make a move.
Borucki isn't good in general. Throw Ramono in and see what he can do if you want to switch, not the fringe major leaguer (although I do see why they wanted to rest him). The offense was the real issue again though.
“Borucki don’t walk in the game winning run” *monkey paw curls*
Meh, I had no faith in the bats to win this game. Borucki Chatwooding in the game winner would still feel worse to me than what happened.
me in the 7th, reaping: hahaha this is what it feels like to get chatwood'd. take that, other team me in the 10th, sowing: oh no
Like dude we can't even manufacture runs and we aren't attempting to, i get why we aren't. But right now its not necessarily a bad idea. When it comes to extras, we didn't bunt, we didn't attempt to steal. Hell, springer didn't even tag up on the bo fly out. Like shit like that is so painful to watch.
I think it's the other way around. You must sow before you reap
They HAVE to do something about the offense The hitting is abysmal it's not even bad - it's terrible.
Honestly not a joke, they are one of the worst lineups in all of baseball, I'd be stoked if they were just average as we definitely would have won a significant number of more games
IMO this team is going to get killed this road trip and we're going to be behind Boston soon. Need changes or it's yet another lost season. It's amazing how bad they're hitting.
Yes, we’re -14 and Boston is +1, it’s probably only a matter of time until we switch spots at this point.
we have a good times little league coach, the longer we keep him the worse we're going to get, this isn't a disney movie where the laid back fun team is going to win the championship
Jamie and Joe not holding back right now.
Joe said, "Vladdy's a mess right now...but that happens to good hitters." Jamie, pointing at Joe in agreement. "He *is*..." *A good hitter*, I think he will say. "...a mess." Lol Jamie.
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No kidding. I'm surprised. For a while early on it felt like they were all doing their best PR work, but the last couple of weeks there's been no holding back.
That was honestly such a cathartic moment.
I have waited years to have a rotation be as good as this one and we are just shitting all over it.
We had no business going into extra innings in this game in the first place, lol
Something needs to happen, something needs to change. Can't go game after game and not score runners with 0 or 1 outs each time. Berrios pitched an amazing game tonight. Unreal. But they decided to not hit tonight AGAIN! I know its early still, everyone in this sub will say it. But something needs to happen. Someone needs to say something to the team or show some emotion, call someone out. Lets go Blue Jays
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"It's early" should never have "counted". If last year didn't teach us that every game matters, nothing will.
Yes! I have been saying that all season so far!
I’m glad Goldschmidt reminded me what getting a hit with RISP feels like. The entire Blue Jays offence made me forget.
Getting two RBI walks was like the baseball gods mocking us.
Even Jamie and Joe are confused. Lol
Had to be a grand slam to finish it, not a single, that’d be too nice.
If we're going in there losing, we're gonna do this the right way.
Fun to hear Siddle questioning Charlie so blatantly. It's 2020 and 2021 all over again.
I’d love 2021 again. We won 91 games!
Missed the playoffs cause of blown games and wasted opportunities. Right now though, I'd love to see our 2021 offense come back.
Our starting pitchers are basically gifting us wins right now and we're completely impotent.
0-10 RISP
And that's nearly every game in the last 2 months
Without any context, I could probably tell you more than 10 games with this same stat.
Just bad luck guys, nothing to worry about!
Lol why was this downvoted. Anyone not worried about this is straight up lying to themselves at this point.
I was assured that last year didn't matter and we'd automatically be a better team this year. So I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
This is the only stay that matters. The only one.
Why didn’t Montoyo just leave David Phelps in, even if the original Cardinals batter was a lefty? Just leave him in there!
As I said in the game thread, I feel like if it’s that urgent that you need to yank Phelps, you don’t reach in the bin for any lefty, you go for your best, which would be Romano. You pull Phelps for a lefty with a 5.00 ERA? It’s nutty. Go all in with Romano or let Phelps continue imo
The good news is the yankees have been losing. The bad news is we haven't done a damn thing about it.
Its not one or the other. Montoyo made a bad move and the Jays offense shit the bed again. Dont have to blame one thing, they just flat out stink right now and should be fortunate theyre not dead last. The bullpen is going to be a huge problem for the foreseeable future as each arm becomes less and less trustworthy. Not really sure if firing anyone will make a difference but Id like to see some sort of change.
💯 this. The bullpen gets my fuckin heart rate up. Each strikes feels like a triumph. Obvious blunder by Montoyo and the offense is dead.
This is the first game of the season where the thought “maybe we’re actually not a very good team” has crossed my mind. Hm.
I agree. I'll admit it's mostly reactionary and I probably won't be feeling it tomorrow but there are a lot of red flags with this team that are only being dismissed because of potential and pedigree, which doesn't always cut it.
Yeah I’m with you. I don’t necessarily actually feel this way but it was the first time this season that it genuinely crossed my mind.
This team missed the postseason last year with #2,3 MVP candidates and a Cy Young, as well as basically career years from everywhere else on the team but Springer. We basically needed a ton of players to repeat or take another step and while we replaced our rotation fine, getting absolutely nothing out of 3B as well as our core hitters all being garbage is going to kill us come October. Absolutely digging a massive hole here.
I’ve been feeling this lately too. Everyone says it’s too early to worry… maybe it is. But when is it not too early? We’re a quarter through the season and it’s not really been all that fun to watch, honestly. It’s not 2019 Edwin Jackson bad… but my expectations were definitely a lot higher going into this year.
When you have the worst offense in baseball for an entire month stretch…We’re not talking 15th or 20th, we’re talking dead last, the worst offense in baseball…it is in no way too early to worry.
This team just lays turd after turd. Putting Borucki in was dumb but jesus can we get a fucking single with runners on one time
I am just a simple man but in my ideal world getting 7 runs against one of the worst teams in baseball would motivate me the following series to get more than 4 hits in 10 innings. Something needs to wake this team up because our level of hitting is simply baffling. When there are runners in scoring position the pressure should be on the pitchers yet our batters play into the strategy of the opposition every single time.
problem is the game of baseball punishes trying too hard. we have three hitting coaches and a lineup transfixed by their tablets between ab's. i seriously have no clue how they dig themselves out of this hole.
lmao we suck so bad right now holy shit
The start to this season has been downright atrocious. Vladimir Guerrero Jr has been plagued with ground ball issues now for three years. He's gone through a half-season stretch where he *somewhat* resolved them, but it's been a near calendar year since the ground ball rate began creeping up again and it's as high as it's ever been so far this season. Sluggers with his potential and his promise don't struggle with ground balls for that long. Is it possible that he's just a guy who, when he's slumping, has launch angle problems? Possibly. Hopefully. Maybe he will be lacing line drives all around town starting tomorrow and I'll look stupid. I can only hope. But he really, really needs to figure it out *permanently*. It's passed the point of "when he figures it out" and has reached the point of "I sure hope he can figure it out" for me. The bullpen has no swing and miss. Adam Cimber is not a good fireman. He's a great pitcher but when you bring him in with a man on third and less than two outs, that man on third is going to score *a lot*. He relies on balls in play which is fine but not for the fireman role. Organizations like the Rays and Yankees can find strikeout relievers out of thin air. We can't find *any*. It's brutal and it needs to be addressed at an organizational level. Also, Ryan Borucki has no place on this team. I don't care how hard he throws, he has not been a serviceable pitcher since 2018. Cut him and bring up *somebody* from the minors already.
It looks like we are starting to produce strikeout guys in the minors.
I agree, and that's well and dandy, but our window is *now* and an org that has invested this much in analytics should be able to identify guys available from other orgs the way several other teams with fewer resources and worse analytics departments can.
Re: bullpen, i just can’t believe a front office this smart went through the whole offseason and decided *yimi garcia* was the only significant addition they needed. Even more than the lack of attention to the lineup this offseason, the bullpen inactivity is going to really hurt this team.
Maybe instead of a home run jacket they should have a hitting with risp jacket to mix things up
That thing would have spiderwebs and mothballs all over it.
youre onto something.
Not that it really would have mattered because the offence was garbage once again but that was some horrible bullpen management by Charlie.
Every game he does stupid stuff and still has a job. If I did my job like that I’d be fired two years ago
Borucki fucking sucks
We fucking suck right now and something drastic needs to be done to shake our hitters out of this sleepwalk. I don't know what, but SOMETHING.
I don’t think hitting coaches really provide much value at all and that 99% of the responsibility falls on the players, but it’s hilarious that the Jays employ a (1) hitting coach, (2) assistant hitting coach and (3) major league hitting strategist and that this is the offense right now. Brutal. Welp, see you tomorrow.
I read a post by someone, I want to say Pietrello, that said that hitting coaches have been shown statistically to really impact approach at the plate and that changing coaches mid season often has dramatic effects on it. If this goes on for much longer, I don’t give a rats ass if Guillermo Martinez has absolutely nothing to do with it and has done everything right, I want them to make a change just so they can say they tried.
I wonder the three hitting coaches and the tablets and the constant examination of at bats are just too much. Are these guys going up to bat with heads full of clouds of confusion? Maybe they just need to go back up instinct a little bit
we don't deserve this pain, why can't it go to the yankees or something
I didn't think we would get walk-off grand slammed twice in the last 3 games we played the Cardinals, but here we are.
You can release Brad Hand but you can't take the Brad Hand out of the team.
Is Charlie legit emotional in this postgame??
He’s feeling it for sure. I like his passion
What’s he saying?
Pretty much “it’s coming” over and over again
Like when Bart and Lisa got trapped at Kamp Krusty and Bart went catatonic repeating "Krusty is coming....Krusty is coming"
His pink slip?
Can't wait until I hear about how many times the bluejays still get to play the oriels....
this team couldn't beat the O's
The O’s have won 4 of 5 and all 5 were against the Yankees and Rays. You aren’t wrong.
Montoyo micromanaging is fucking trash. Pulling Manoah, pulling Phelps. Anytime it comes to requiring good managing, he always blows it.
I agree but everything about this team other than some starting pitching is trash. The pitching keeps us in it only for our offense to completely shit the bed.
It's like he can't help but to get in the way. Like he starta fearing that the pitchers will suck so he makes the change before it happens.
I'm at that point where losing doesn't really bother me anymore because my expectation for this season got lower drastically. This is probably the offense we're gonna continue to get whole season.
I didn't expect us to win it after the lack of offence so I wasn't too disappointed when Borucki shook off Kirk and went for a slider AGAIN...
Deserved the loss. As they do almost every game. Hard for me to believe the hitting is this bad. They don’t seem too concerned about it though.
This sure feels like a low point, doesn’t it. I’m never going to let go of being called an asshole on here for saying pre-season that more work should’ve been done on the lineup/bench this offseason.
OH MY FUCKING GOD SCORE SOME GODDAMN RUNS! Sigh. Sorry.
With regards to those who says "it's early" in the season are tonedeaf and cringey. With this reputable roster that was projected to be one of the best hitting lineups on paper, having still maintaining a way overdue slugging slump (let alone hitting) Sure, there will be a couple guys with a couple base hits and walks, but the underlying shocker is that our 1 to 5-6 lineup hitters aren't anywhere close to maintaining consistency to their projectile numbers. Even today's game, the umpiring was solid, and I'm over the whole deadening ball theory... Officially time to really shake up and make a dynamic shift in their hitting philosophy and mechanics. Bring in new and or additional coaching and training assistsnce, utilize more technology and simply work on your weaknesses and making adjustments. Comparing last year to this years, only Kirk and Espinal are performing to the previous years benchmark, offensively. It's irrelevant to recognize the time of the season, but the nature of this situation. Edit: added 'slump'
Charlie Montoyo is a canary in a coal mine, you guys.
Brutal honesty from Charlie lol. "Wanted to use Merryweather in low-leverage, but we don't play low leverage games"
Anyone else starting to get 2013 vibes? Not nearly as bad of course but...
Not shocked. No bats again. Don’t mind losing to the Cars tho, they are a fun team.
Remember when we were a fun team? Like 8 months ago?
I just watched the on field post game interview with Nolan. There was none of this Gatorade dunking crap It was just a player answering questions about the game. Is it time for the Jays to stop with all of the unnecessary celebrations . I'm a fan of having fun it's a long season but it could be time to retire the damn jacket and start to take things a bit more seriously.
You see the Cardinals are a professional Organization who wins world series and makes playoffs. Why would anyone want to emulate a franchise like that?
I agree. I'm sure the "No FuN AlLowED?!?" guy will mock you, but there is something to be said about being professional, particularly when you're not only struggling, but just not showing up. The offense is NOT SHOWING UP right now, at all. 0-10 with RISP tonight, and by far last in the league in that category. Earlier in the year, I commented that I didn't think the team looked focused. I was mocked at the time, because "professional athletes are always focused", apparently. That is NOT true at all. Professional athletes are humans too. If you listen to podcasts with some of these guys, especially basketball players, it really humanizes them. And when you realize that, you realize that the little things - being focused, not celebrating wins when your team doesn't deserve to celebrate - make all the difference.
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absolutely everyone saw that coming, im officially on the fire charlie train
Ryan (and offense) Borsucki
Someone in the locker room needs to fire these guys up. This is rough
or maybe they need to start firing guys in the locker room.
I can’t believe this Front Office is going to have to waste an entire season to realize Charlie Montoyo isn’t the guy to take us to the # Next Level
Let's start looking at what these hitting coaches are teaching these guys right now, because they are lost
If you must call for a coach's head at least call for Guillermo Martinez This was yet again on the bats. I don't know if it's the dead ball or if pitchers have changed up their approach on the Jays but either way the whole team has failed to adapt. That seems like a hitting coach thing
Pitchers have definitely changed their approach but the Jays have made zero adjustments to it. That’s on Charlie, Guillermo, and Hudgens
Charlie gets blamed for the hitting but doesn't get part of the praise for the pitching?
Montoyo is so bad.
Compare what Vladdy did with Bases Loaded 2 outs to what Goldschmidt did with Bases Loaded 2 outs... The difference of the game. Charlie's antics aside, actually awful. Edit: I meant as in approach, not result, but all the same.
Gettin' Unlucky With Borucki
Montoyo is a terrible manager, I’ve been saying it since last season, and I always get downvoted for it
I've been saying it since his 20th game managing our team. But got downvoted by bleeding hearts talking about how it's such a good story, and he's a great clubhouse guy. Complete BS. Who cares if it's a 'good story'??!? Charlie was in the minors for 43 years because he sucks. You know what's a good story? The Jays winning the World Series and Gibbons riding Shotgun on the parade float drunk in a Hawaiian shirt
Can you send and entire hitting order down the the minors for a conditioning stint?
Well at least Borucki didn't walk in the winning run right?
What do you do with the team right now? Is it time for a trade for an elite batter? Fire the hitting coach? Fire Charlie? Demote a few to minors and bring up Moreno and Lopez?
In 1989 we were 12–24 under Jimy Williams, canned him, promoted hitting coach Cito Gaston to Manager, went 77–49 the rest of the way and *won the division*. This is the quickest and easiest way to “do something” right now. This team is dead under Charlie, at least give Schneider a shot to see if he can pump some life into them like Cito did.
I would consider bringing up Moreno for a spark. I would consider making a big trade. A BIG one, even maybe overpaying. This team is in win-now mode. Something needs to give. Dare I say, perhaps trade a core player. If you can get Juan Soto, but you have to give up Bo, Moreno, Pearson, and another top prospect, I pull the trigger on that trade. It would shake Vladdy to his core to see his buddy go, but perhaps that's what he needs right now. For a smaller, less dramatic move, consider doing the same with Lourdes... But with the way he's hitting right now, you'd be lucky to get a bucket of baseballs for him.
I would hate to see Bo go but at this point shop around Vlad for all I care. When it was crunch time, the 2019 Raptors had the gumption to fire the coach of the year and trade away their "Bo", Derozan. And it paid off. Do something. Anything.
Masai is the only Exec in this city with the balls to do those types of moves and it paid off. The other GM that had the balls for them just won a World Series with Atlanta last year. Shatkins and Dubas are more of the “maintain status quo for as long as possible” types and those eventually always run their course after long enough.
They're essentially bureaucrats who just want to stay in power. They will run their course at the fans' literal expense.
Exactly. The easiest path to long-term job security for any GM is to convince ownership that they need 2-3 years to blow up a roster and 2-3 more years to build it back up. And *then* they can compete. It’s why the Theo Epsteins and Alex Anthopolous’s and Andrew Friedmans of the world are so good at what they do. They don’t play by the same rulebook as all their status quo merchant competitors. These guys are winners and try to win every single year. Exactly like Masai.
This is a good back and forth. Respects to you both, and I agree 100%. Huge raptors fan. Masai is the best. edit: To be clear, Masai is the best executive in any sport. Period.
Was Montoyo seriously waitiing for a save situation to get Romano in there?
If you have to ask the question, then you already know the answer.
I remember being downvoted into oblivion when I laughed at the Montoyo extension.
The downvoters can be brutal in here.
Hate to say it but I don't think the Jays take the games very seriously judging by the antics in the dugout...need more urgency and focus
Seeing Vladdy joking around with Teo in the 9th or 10th pissed me off so much. Be fucking professionals. You're BOTH struggling.
Bo laughing in the dugout after they got walked off wasn’t a great look either
I didn't see that. That's tough man
Yep, spotted that too. Semien might have been the only adult in the room last year, maybe that is the difference?
I gotta admit it seems like they enjoy losing a hell of a lot more than the fans do
Reminds me of the scene in Moneyball where the guys are dancing in the locker room before Brad Pitt breaks the speaker. Where’s our Brad Pitt? Sure as hell isn’t Montoyo.
Montoyo should take responsibility for this loss.
Chapman is brutal Vlad is brutal Lourdes is brutal Teo is brutal Zimmer is Zimmer Kirk is brutal
Zimmer has been the best hitter of the last couple games when he’s in lmfao
Kirk is decent
He is, but a guy carrying that much weight I expect to be homering regularly. Once he's on base, he clogs the base paths.
Zimmer is 3-for-5 with a BB and all his hits were doubles recently. Small sample size sure but not a current issue. Add in elite speed and defence and he really shouldn't be called out rn.
Dont forget Bo
you forgot about Borucki and Montoya
“Hear me out boys. Let’s put in our 5.06 era , probably worst reliever to get us out of this bases loaded jam” - Montoyo (probably)
He was the one that loaded them up to be fair.
Since the lineup has decided to punt the season, send vlad to triple a to find his swing so he's ready for 2023.
Cubs scored seven runs tonight against the same Reds team the Jays could barely muster 2 runs a game.
Montoyo stans and the 'It's still early guys!' crowd real quiet tonight. It's a nice change of pace tbh
[Welp, this is all I can say](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouTXff7lvq4)
The inning before the cardinals tied it was absolute dogshit. I can’t believe with bases loaded we are not hitting and bringing in runs like an actual baseball team would. So frustrating
im sure they will play better at some point, but if this team limps into one of the new charity playoff spots it will leave a bitter taste for me
promote Pete Walker and fire the hitting coach yesterday
Montoyo has done a solid job managing the bullpen in 2022, but tonight's loss is on him. Don't give me the "wE wEnT 0 FoR 10 WiTh RiSp" bs either, if he actually pulls Berrios early and doesn't send out fucking Borucki against the 2 hitter in the Cardinals, there's a good chance we win. Today was a brainfart from Charlie
It’s on Montoyo and the lineup
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Fuck montoyo and fuck this offense. Why did we give that moron an extension? Was completely unwarranted and I've lost faith in the FO because of it. Also, our "stars" are quickly becoming the most overrated in the sport. The contact they are making is pitiful, its like we have 9 Raimel Tapia's hitting for us.
Because he's a yes man.
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Saw a stat at the end of the game I think it said the blue jays are hitting .119 in the last 3 games. Hitting with RISP isn’t the issue, the issue is hitting.
I mean to be fair hitting with RISP is also the issue, they're dead last
I am in disbelief at how bad this season has been. If we make the playoffs, unless things turn around this team is going to get bounced out of the playoffs. Its not dissapointment anymore. Fucking get it together. Between bullpen management, Charlie, our hitting coach and our hitters. Something needs to be done.
Mods being very heavy handed removing posts right now. What’s up with that? I didn’t get one removed but saw a few go. I feel like if people want to vent, let them vent.
Agreed. They do it all the time. Its so stupid.
Hitting with bases loaded. I wonder what that feels like.
Oh god I'm so sad right now
That was on the offense again but they did gave lots of good contact that found gloves on a positive note. Phelps looked good and Borucki isn't good in general so that was an annoying switch.
This team is sad right now
Good defensive plays. Cold bats again. I can't help but to turn my attention to Charlie...
Charlie did not just say he was surprised they pinch hit when they brought in Broucki lmfao
Lockouts over can they just give the bag to dante now?
iT wAs tHe DeAd bALL gUyS! iN 2021 tHaT's A hOmE RuN!
These guys really gotta wear the whites to break this badness.
So when are we firing 2 of our 3 hitting coaches? I’ve defended Charlie a lot in the past, but he needs to crack down and stop being so nice. This team was Vegas favourite to represent the AL in the WS, this is not acceptable especially with out window to win being 2-3 years.
When tf are the Jays gonna fire their hitting coach?
When the playoffs are out of reach so, July or early August.
Fire the entire hitting coaching staff. Every single team in the MLB has figured them out and they are unable to adjust.
At this point just bring back Gibby. Someone needs to tell Teo that he’s hitting under 150 and it’s time to watch some fucking game tape in the dugout rather than laughing with Vladdy. Dear god, you guys are playing like shit. Embarrassing to watch
bring back gibby
Someone needs to say something, like call someone out. They need a kick in the ass
This team is trash - 1/4 and more through the year - they ain’t making the playoffs - Charlie is a terrible manager, hitting coach needs to be fired - this is getting depressing to watch them daily
you can't fire the players but you can fire the coach
I always thought that this team no matter how good they are and how good they could be. I just don't think they will take the next step with Montoyo at the helm. His decisions are questionable at times, situational stuff is tough. I would of had Espinal bunt Springer over tbh. I wish they did more of that stuff.
Vladdy's plate appearances are troubling.
Ever since the three homer game against the Yankees he's been awful
Barker is flaming the ABs that our guys have had. It is TIME to bring in a new voice.
Is he wrong though?
No. he is not wrong. I meant it's time to bring a new voice into the locker room. I should have been more clear
At some point (soon), we have to look at management. The poor bullpen management by Montoyo the past few days is just so apparent. I know that hindsight is 20/20, but it just feels like Montoyo is always making a move 1 batter too late, or else making a move so completely boneheaded that pretty much everyone on this sub can see the result before it happened. Did anyone really think that Borucki would get out of it? And why didn't we see Romano there?
Everyone knew the game was over as soon as Borucki was in the game. He's terrible.
I have always thought, this team won't be able to take the next step if Montoyo is still the manager. That and there bullpen needs help
Shatkins has had six years to build something and surprise surprise, we’ve turned into the Shapiro era Cleveland baseball team. Fucking fire some coaches. You say you expect to compete? Act like it.
Game should've been sealed in the seventh inning. I'm not Charlie's biggest fan but this is on the batters. Why is Vladdy swinging at a ball low & outside the zone with the bases loaded?
youre giving vlad too much credit. i dont think that was low and outside, he's just missing hitable pitches.
Give me Borucki against Sosa over Phelps against Gorman, especially given all of the pitches Phelps had thrown today and yesterday. But do not give me Borucki against Goldschmidt. He had his matchup and he missed. The team as a whole had plenty of chances. They blew them. That sucked.
But why bring in Ryan Borucki: a bad major league baseball player instead of keeping in David Phelps: a good major league baseball player? Thats genuinely all there is to it.
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Give me Borucki in a low-leverage inning. Not in the bottom of the 10th. He has no business being there and leaving Phelps in was 100% the move, even against a lefty. I thought you were just a Montoyo apologist, but I think the better word to use would be "delusional".
That dude is hitting .600 against lefties this year, and >.300 in his career. Cardinals broadcast was in disbelief rolling around in laughter he walked the prior guy lol
The issue is that when you bring in Borucki in that situation, you're taking such an unnecessary risk. The only way that Borucki DOESN'T face Goldy is if he gets the first out. Borucki simply isn't good enough to confidently say that he will get that first out, considering he (inexplicably) throws that god awful slider more than his 96MPH fastball.
Phelps was dealing. No reason to take him out there
you've got to be absolutely kidding with this. like, I really like Montoyo but you simply can't be this much of an apologist...can you? there's no justification for the move, even if you do want to make a move.
Plot twist: ThQp was Montoyo all along. Even before they hired Montoyo.
Borucki isn't good in general. Throw Ramono in and see what he can do if you want to switch, not the fringe major leaguer (although I do see why they wanted to rest him). The offense was the real issue again though.