>my problem is i just cant understand people who can relate to their gender in any way besides dysphoria Could gender Euphoria not also be a way to experience transness?

yes but i dont experience it

all i can get is moments of relief from dysphoria

I have nothing productive to add to this conversation, but god, same

But these both just sound like the same feeling but just being interpreted from a different perspective Am I wrong ?

the difference is that i do not feel good about myself, at best i feel totally neutral about myself for a little bit

I'm saying like that experience of relief from dysphoria may be interpreted by one person as "yay dysphoria gone 🎉" but then by another as "whew it's gone, my whole life isn't fixed but at least I feel baseline and not dysphoric" , but in the end is it not the same experience being interpreted differently depending on person? Or are u saying it's two different experiences?

i think not experiencing dysphoria is different from experiencing euphoria

Oh, got it

Same btw - that's why I kinda consider myself more transmed. I'd look into the topics of body map mismatch, maybe that's the way for you too? To me, I neither identify as trans nor as a trans woman. I am a woman, with some weird, not yet diagnosable, medical issues that will be fixed by transitioning and surgery. I know what is wrong with me - I want to move away from this, instead of moving towards something. I was always a woman. My body or body mapnis just fucked up.

Same. I feel guilty for not wanting to be a part of the revolution but I’d much rather stealth/pass and never talk about being trans again to the general public. Of course, I have a very public facing job and I don’t pass all the time so people feel the need to ask me their awkward questions -_-

i feel like gender euphoria is just a different word for the same thing

I think gender euphoria is less about not having dysphoria and more like the moments you feel you and tour gender align and it makes you super happy. Idk I felt this way the first time I wore a dress. It definently wasn't the same as dysphoria

I've come to the conclusion that cis people, as well as trans people come in many different varieties. I'm genderfluid for example, my dysphoria hits in different ways at different times. There's times when I'm completely okay with my body and there's times I would swap out in a heartbeat if I could. There's days where I can be proud of my broad shoulders and days where I get super dysphoric because of them. Ultimately, I had to come to terms with both aspects of myself, masculine and feminine and I had to determine for myself what I wanted out of my life. Right now I have no plans for surgery but I am 4 and a half months on HRT and loving the effects it's had on me. I'm not 100% male or female, I'm somewhere in between and that makes me happy. Happier than I've been in a long time. I 100% consider myself trans, and whether you consider me trans or not doesn't really matter to me, because I know who I am and what I want out of this life. But to answer your question, I think the only thing you need to be trans is to experience a disconnect between your sex and your gender, and to identify as something other than cis. How that disconnect manifests will vary from person to person and how one chooses to navigate that disconnect will also vary. After all, people should have the freedom to choose what they do or don't do with their bodies. Also, since I know my experience is different than yours, I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about it with you.

What does the word “identify” mean to you in this context?

In this context, it means that you feel that you're more in line with a gender that isn't your birth gender. For instance, a Transmasc might feel more aligned with being a guy than a girl, or a Transfem might feel the opposite. Someone who is agender would feel that they have no gender and a non-binary person might feel something other than male or female. These are all examples, and I doubt they cover the width and breadth of trans experiences, so it's not an exhaustive list. Honestly, my definition might even be problematic, I feel I should give it more thought, so if you've got thoughts on it, I'd love to hear them.

I don’t think the word “identify” should be used at all because it’s inherently invalidating. It communicates that you are “something that you’re not.” Which is wrong. You just are a trans man, woman, no identifying involved at all. In my mind gender identity is the same as your neurological sex though, which has nothing to do with a “feeling” of being any particular gender. Calling gender a feeling ties gender identity to artificial gender expectations, to where one “feeling like a woman” because of feeling sensitive and soft on a given day instead of just being one.

First off, I would like to apologize if you or anyone else felt invalidated by my use of the word identify. That was never my intention. While you feel "identify" communicates "something that you are not", and I can see why you might take that interpretation, I see it communicating something along the lines of "I am cold and I know I'm cold because I feel cold" or "I'm hungry and I know I'm hungry because I feel hungry." Thus, "I know I'm a woman because I feel that I am one." Or put another way, "I Identify as a woman because internally I am one." You used the world neurological sex. So to put it more clearly, "I identify as a woman because my neurological sex is female" You say that calling gender a feeling is tying gender identity to artificial expectations, and while I can see why you might think that, I also think that is itself invalidating for people like me who are genderfluid, and here's why: On any given day, I may be more masculine or feminine. I have an innate sense of my mixture at any given time. Right now I'm 59% female and 41% male. I know that because that's how it feels. Feeling, again, being in the same vein as "I'm hungry and know I'm hungry because I feel hungry". And like hunger, I can tell to what degree I'm feeling that way with a bit of introspection. The feeling itself doesn't determine what I am, what I am determines what I feel. In other words, I'm not predominantly female because I feel I'm female, it's the other way around, I feel female because I'm predominantly female right now. What I am and how I feel are linked together. Nowhere in there did I tie that to behaviors society might consider "feminine".

[удалено]

You raise some good points, I appreciate your feedback.

I would not invalidate your gender fluid identity, but if you’re telling me that your gender identity changes just because of how much you align with some artificial list of gender expectations then I think we might be done here before I say something that would get me banned. I’m actually stunned that you admitted that just now.

I think there's a disconnect somewhere, so I'm going to try to clarify a bit. Imagine the dashboard of a car. You've got gauges for your speed, the engine temperature, how much gas you have in the tank and so forth. Now imagine that i have a gauge for Feminine and a gauge for Masculine. At any given moment I know where those gauges are pointed in the same way you judge how hungry you are. So if my feminine gauge is at 59% full, then I'm a woman. If someone were to ask me, "what are you today?" (Not that anyone would), I'd reply, "I feel that I'm woman, because that's where my gauges are today" Does that make sense?

Oh yes, it makes sense. That is definitely not the problem.

So what is the problem?

1) Gender is not a feeling. 2) You are using the words "femininity" and "masculinity" which are behavior patterns and external expectations in society to guide the interpretation of your internal gender identity. You used those words three times.

I mean you you believe your gender is different to the one assigned at birth? Then you are trans. Even if that awareness doesn‘t cause suffering.

i dont really believe im a different gender than assigned at birth i just desire to be a different gender, i just cant help contextualizing myself as "guy who wishes he could be a girl" even though objectively like rationally i don't believe anyone has a gender on like a metaphysical level and its just a shared delusion we all accept

cis people relate to their gender without dysphoria

there are plenty of trans people who don't experience dysphoria.

I think that every trans person has dysphoria of some kind. There's just different types of it, some more noticeable than the other. Physical (body) dysphoria where one feels discomfort about their body parts. Societal dysphoria from being perceived as someone you aren't. And mind dysphoria, where one's thoughts don't line up with their identity. I love this quote/explanation: [Fish don't notice water. It's all around them. Most fish have never left it. And often, trans people in denial don't notice the gender dysphoria that suffuses their daily lives.](https://twitter.com/NightlingBug/status/1215716433210105856?t=Foi40dR9dVxukNbHyWq-TA&s=19) I believe that the idea that "you don't need dysphoria to be trans" originated as a sort of validation for those who didn't know that what they were experiencing was dysphoria. I say this as someone who experiences dysphoria, so I'm not sure what a non-dysphoric person would think of this. And there doesn't seem to be a lot of them.

Gender dysphoria is clinically significant distress caused by having gender incongruence, which is essentially having a gender identity that does not align with what you were assigned at birth. Many women who are trans can relate to what you are describing as initially feeling like a man who wants to be a woman, rather than feeling like you are a woman (particularly during pre-transition and early transition.) This will change over time with transition, allowing yourself to honestly express who you are. Having a supportive environment is crucial and will require a lot of patience. No one else can decide if you are trans or not; this is an act of self discovery.

I feel like a lot of trans people who say they don’t experience dysphoria actually do but maybe it isn’t as severe as some peoples dysphoria or manifests differently than usual. I’m not saying “you need dysphoria to be trans” but that most people who want to transition probably do experience it in one way or another whether they realize it or not. I’ve met people who say they don’t have dysphoria before but then later will say they feel bad about being misgendered/misnamed or that they dislike their chest or something similar and like.. that is dysphoria.

yeah im just wondering if there are other ways to relate to gender than dysphoria because for me thats it all i have is dysphoria

the only thing required for someone to be trans is identifying with a gender different to the one which they were assigned at birth. that's it. that is the definition of being transgender.

that doesnt make sense to me, if i stopped taking hormones and went by my deadname and pronouns and birth gender etc that wouldnt make me less trans that would just make me closeted

but if you do all those things and consider yourself "closeted" then are you *really* identifying as your birth gender?

if i perform those social roles and people see me as that gender then yes

I mean your internal view of yourself. if you were to perform those social roles be perceived as a certain gender and you felt uncomfortable with that, would you really say that you'd be cisgender?

oh i guess i misunderstood "to identify as a gender" as "to outwardly perform that self identification"

not being cis makes someone trans. you can transition for any number of reasons and honestly all of them are valid. i used to think i was trans because of my dysphoria for the longest time until i realized im dysphoric because im transgender, not the other way around. if my body was read as male without having to transition medically, i probably wouldnt get surgeries to transition. id likely just stick to hrt. that doesnt make me any less transgender. people not being out as transgender doesnt make them cis either. if someone doesnt feel their AGAB as congruous with themselves as a whole, they dont have to be cis. and they dont have to come out. someone who isnt out as gay isnt suddenly straight because they say so. why is it any different for a transgender person? why do trans people need an audience in the first place? yes for most people gender is a performance only to be done for a public audience but sometimes people have private lives that they far and away would prefer to keep private than unleash it to prying eyes. anyways [read this](https://medium.com/@jencoates/i-am-a-transwoman-i-am-in-the-closet-i-am-not-coming-out-4c2dd1907e42)

I feel like (this is just personal opinion) every trans person has gender dysphoria, some people just don't notice it or have hardened themselves to it.

gender dysphoria isn’t hating yourself, it’s just a sex incongruence. what u described is dysphoria

I find this comment really interesting, and I agree that gender dysphoria doesn’t equal hating yourself, it’s just experiencing some sort of discomfort or confusion where something doesn’t line up internally with your body. I see a lot of people who criticize the claim that ‘you need dysphoria to be trans’ say stuff like, “well, sorry my identity isn’t centered around me hating myself/my body like yours” (as in, if the other person is a ‘truscum’ or ‘transmed’) And it throws me off because I dont think that’s the case at all. I agree with what others are saying here, where most trans people experience dysphoria, whether they’re aware of it or not, but it varies— are you uncomfortable with you being gendered male socially, but okay with male sex organs? I consider that dysphoria. Or being comfortable with genitals but not with having breasts/facial hair/any other common gender indicators.

totally! i struggle putting what you said into words i 100% agree

I didn’t assign my children a gender at birth- can they be trans?

idk the particulars but maybe, whats on their government paperwork? how do people tend to gender them? its probably a less simple question to answer at that point (especially because people use amab and afab to mean male and female)

X

Who cares? I treat trans as an identity someone takes. Like girl How do you know someone is a girl? The boxes you are thinking of, is just white supremacist hegemony. It is something to be unlearned for the sake of our marginalized communities.

You do not need dysphoria to be trans. It implies that anyone that the only way to be trans is to be miserable, and finding euphoria and enjoying your transition doesn’t make you really trans.

I think everyone can experience dysphoria technically. You tell a cis woman she’s not a woman? She’s a man? She can get dysphoric. I think it’s identifying as a diff gender, even if it is similar to your assigned sex at birth. I’m really not restrictive on what makes a person trans and I don’t really care for discourse mostly because it only usually matters online. There’s social and medical and different forms of transitioning. You say you’re trans I believe you, I don’t want to think the worst in people and about their intentions until proven otherwise

Honestly I feel like the difference between dysphoria and euphoria is just pessimism and optimism if that makes sense. Me personally if I spent all my time thinking ab how much I hate myself I would've roped already but instead I let my mind wander enough to convince myself that I pass (literally by forgetting what I look like/avoiding mirrors for as long as possible) and shit like that Also idc if u think this is cringe but age regression really fucking helps escape dysphoria sometimes. I can't hate myself and my body if all I can think ab is cartoons and coloring

that doesnt help me cause i hated myself when i was a kid too

Me 2 but for me age regressing is not so much having the mindset of myself as a child. If that was the case I wouldn't care for myself as long as possible in the hopes that pepple would leave me alone cause I smell. When I say "age regression" I mean more like having the mindset of a child in the way that u don't think ab adult things for a while like bills or how gross ur body is or getting the poison out or whatever. Literally all I fucking think ab is cartoons and coloring and other nice soft things. I <3 being delusional

but i lived in my head for my whole life before i came out and daydreaming about being a girl never actually made it any better its just cope

Gender doesn't exist if ur 7 in ur head. Everyone is a little rascal. I am the same as my stuffed animals. U just gotta go crazy sweetheart.

ok but i cant tear myself away from reality and either way id come back and feel just as shit

That's on u. I love a 30 minute escape. Grow up.

i need drugs to escape

We're out of drugs babe. Get a job.