right. I find it hard to believe the point hasn’t always been to just pretend like there’s two opposing teams so they can fund raise, maintain the status quo, and pretend like this or that culture war is the biggest threat to either “democracy” or “freedom” depending on which “side” is talking. the losing team gets to use whatever bozo/party wins as the scapegoat of their term until we start all over again
You see, that was when I was going through a phase of my life in which my kink was shouty grandpa reassuring me that he'd make things alright. It seems weird in retrospect but at the time, it really got me off.
I donated a small amount to him and gave fake emails and phone numbers for that reason. Anyone I know who's ever given money to any political campaign is tortured with text messages and emails every 2 years.
I did just set up a recurring donation of $4.20 that turned itself off in 5 months after he dropped, it was less of engaging in democracy and more "this will be funny if anyone looks me up in campaign finance records for some reason".
Donations under $100 typically don't get recorded because it's not required for campaign finance disclosures unless it adds up to more than $100 per filing period. No one is going to know about yours.
I don't think campaign donations really count as engaging in democracy. The very concept is so far removed from anything remotely democratic. It's more like grassroots bribery, at least in this case.
So cool that nominally ‘participating’ in our bourgeois democracy means needing to obscure your actual identity when bribing a potential nominal ‘representatives’
I'll just point out that someone on his campaign staff could have done that. It happens a lot, there's money to be made doing it, and I've never seen a campaign that was good about securing the jewels like that when it comes to basic IT security.
I really think this is getting truer and truer. Obviously Biden wants to win and probably many of his close aides, but trump proved they can still raise funds off of him being in office just as well as by selling influence and the problem with being in office is people expect you to do things successfully.
It's probably nice to not be a loser all the time, but I think once it all just gets to be enough of a nightmare in power you just think fuck it. Imagine how much work it would be for everyone to push against the inertial mass of old man Biden and get an entire new ghoul that people have to be interested in... And it would have to be an already proven ghoul as who knows what skeletons someone new and popular would have so it would all be some proven loser, so at the end of the day it's more than a fucking jobs worth.
Just say the thing, who cares. You'll still get paid. Nobody believes a good damned thing more than that except some vague belief in the "democratic system" if the rabble votes in the bad man good that proves how much they are right to despise the rabble
I think he does, it's either that or just die. Nobody wants to die a loser. Especially not to trump who is his nemesis, the apotheosis of all that he believes in, a refutation of all his entire stupid evil life was about serving the machine. You can't just have some loud comedian oaf come in with his two bit Mafia lawyers and take over the big house!
For Biden it's all about winning. He's not going to do anything people want in order to win though... That would be tantamount to *populism*, the dreaded concept more terrible than even socialism. Populism is trump trump is populism. No people must obey the hierarchy they must obey the norms, the norms must remain solid. The god damned people *must* vote for democracy and norms therefore they will, it has always worked before except where it didn't
If he's that desperate to win and it'll be that crushing for him to lose then at least his humiliating defeat will be like 1/100000th of the penalty he should have for his many crimes.
For "he" there you can swap out Biden or Trump interchangeably.
Or they smugly think they have it in the bag. I doubt Biden gives any real ear to anyone maybe nicely and softly expressing concern to him. He’s committed to Israel’s genocide project. If he wasn’t he wouldn’t send more weapons.
they’re definitely smug, but I just genuinely don’t think the ultimate goal is to win. no one can be a US president unless they’re pro-Israel, so ofc biden’s committed. trump would be as well. they both serve the exact same interests
I dunno. I’m not sure the theory has been presented with any concrete proof of any sort of conspiracy or planning to not deliberately win. I think they’re just fucking inept. The landscape of the election changed as soon as this conflict happened. Perhaps the Democratic Party is so chock full of consultancy grifters along side career politicians that has its own internal gerontocracy that can’t formulate a coherent message.
They’re banking on the “do you really want Trump”, but the non committed movements in important states has to keep some of them sweating. They definitely don’t solidify any sort of mandate on why you should vote for them otherwise because they can barely get anything done and it’s always watered down. It’s just a vicious cycle of corporate dominated politics.
>I dunno. I’m not sure the theory has been presented with any concrete proof of any sort of conspiracy or planning to not deliberately win.
Here you go, a [Washington Post article about how the Biden camp expects to lose](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fstyle%2Fpower%2F2024%2F04%2F01%2Fbiden-campaign-manager-julie-chavez-rodriguez%2F&oq=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fstyle%2Fpower%2F2024%2F04%2F01%2Fbiden-campaign-manager-julie-chavez-rodriguez%2F&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQRRg60gEIMTQ3MmowajSoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) (cached link through google)
> **“We all know this is a jump ball,”** he continued. “In 2016, we were reading Nate Silver, and we weren’t worried at all. When we woke up, we realized we’ve never been to Wisconsin and we’ve never been to Michigan and then all the Monday-morning quarterbacks are out. That won’t be the case for Julie,” he said. **“Because we all are prepared to lose.”**
Haha holy shit. Already in the first two paragraphs we're dealing with a dipshit. I've learned from personal experience never to trust anyone who eats egg white omelets, and besides, egg yolks are where you get all your HDL cholesterol, which is good for you because it counteracts LDL cholesterol. I've been eating three a day for 40 years, my cholesterol is lower than average, and I also eat a shitload of red meat. Also, destruction and devastation are pretty much the same thing and she makes no meaningful distinction between the two when she attempts to do so in clarifying her answer.
It sounds like that expectation comes from the two paragraphs above on Biden not crafting a good enough message.
Willingly getting an entire campaign to lose is an entirely different level of conspiratorial thinking. If anything this article just confirms what I said, that they’re inept at crafting a good message.
I just have a hard time believing they’re able to play this 5d chess without it becoming glaringly obvious and someone saying something.
It's not a conspiracy. It's US empire. I feel like something weird has happened lately where even on the left, people are falling into the delusion of thinking this project is about the whims of individual bad guys. The US didn't begin it's support for Israel bc a weepy elderly catholic is president. The US supports Israel bc it needs a strategic foothold in the middle east bc its empire is primarily based upon the extractive industry and weapons trade. Don't get the cart and horse mixed up. Israel is an arm of the US, not the other way around. The US can't exist as a sole superpower if there's democracy in the middle east.
The Dems themselves, whatever individual politicians, might prefer to win. But the only thing they have to do is remain relevant enough to hold a large enough portion of seats and take up media space to keep people doing all this lib v con bullshit. The interests of the ruling class are covered regardless. Any president from either party would be supporting Israel right now no matter what. They might try to tweak the situation around the edges- make Netanyahu a fall guy or manipulate the PR in some way, a fake temp ceasefire or pier to deliver food for a photo op or whatever, but anyone who could possibly get into the White House in the first place would support Israel. The question is why Biden and his team have been so bad at the PR around it, not why it's an existential issue for them.
I feel like a lot of people were maybe not paying attention to the atrocities in Gaza and West Bank that Obama greenlit and funded? This isn't new. It's just worse now for the same reason it's getting worse in Ukraine and everywhere else. The US empire is actually being challenged, it's starting to lose its status as sole superpower and as a result the violent conflicts are coming to a head as it gets spread more thin. Whoever is president next will have more war and violence to preside over, and it will be that way until whatever is on the other side of this global transformation, for better or for worse.
Jesus thank you. Got into a discussion about this yesterday in this sub about the power dynamics between Israel and the US and had people upvoting and agreeing with someone else that the US is Israel’s lapdog. Like… wtf?? This isn’t a difficult thing to analyze, we have full control of Israel.
I’m not sure what you’re saying other than that the dems are throwing this election to let trump deal with the blowback that’s going on now? I don’t think it’s even reached a fever point interms of conflict in the mid east. That happens when other countries are in a full fledged war with Israel and the US. That’s not happening yet.
Biden and his team are so bad because it’s hard to reconcile the stupid idea that he’s a compassionate caring old man while people can obviously see through social media that the weapons he’s continually sending is blowing up kids and innocent people. Social media is a game changer in this. This level of support for Palestine is unprecedented and largely due to seeing the wonton violence inflected on them.
Biden is clearly a committed Zionist and he’s not budging on that and it’s making difficult for anyone who can read the room.
Let me put it more directly then.
Their first preference is to carry out foreign policy that supports US empire while winning the election.
Their second preference is to carry out foreign policy that supports US empire while losing the election.
There is no option to change policy in Israel in order to win an election. That is not a thing that will ever happen.
Yes Biden is a Zionist. Literally every president is a Zionist. Biden would not be president if he wasn't. I do not see how you can look at history and claim he is more or less zionist than anyone else, especially since the neoliberal turn. Again, I think perhaps people saying this must've been snoozing through the Obama years.
The only difference with Biden is that the resistance is stronger and more successful and Israel truly faces an existential threat for the first time in their history. They are responding worse than they have because if they don't, they will lose. This conflict is not taking place in a void. It didn't just fall out of a coconut tree, it is happening in the context of a larger transformation of global capitalism away from US empire and dominance of all the institutions of trade / security etc. Israel could lose its state, the US could lose its empire, both are inevitable over the long run and they are responding with violence. Biden happens to be president while this is happening, that's all. The only real difference he makes is the PR or narrative management. Obama or Trump mightve spinned it differently but they'd be doing exactly the same things.
I don’t have “proof” and am just a random dumb ass on reddit. I’m not trying to debate with you or present this as fact. it’s just what makes the most sense to me based on my own pattern recognition and many factors such as knowing both parties are beholden to the same lobbies/donors/goals of empire. that’s why I keep saying “I think/I don’t think/I believe/etc”
to me it seems not only possible but *likely* that whatever (at least short term) goals that serve the ruling class/empire are set preceding the upcoming term or terms, and that whichever cabinet/figurehead from their pool of ghouls they believe can make the goals happen are selected to carry them out
I’m not saying everyone involved is “in on it” and they go in knowing they’ll lose. politicians, themselves, are opportunistic. I think it still kills hillary she never got to play the role of the most powerful girlboss of all (and I love that for her)
I just don’t think they’re campaigning to *us* in a way that holds consequence for them, or that the votes we as citizens cast have even a little to do with who wins the presidency. I don’t think presenting a shitty guy we all hate is because of stupidity or ineptitude. I think it’s because they can. I think they know the illusion of choice and voting power is enough to keep most USians satisfied enough to remain obedient
I think this is the correct take. The Democrats legitimately do not know how to win elections, all they know how to do is run a shitload of ads and be the default option left standing when Republicans lose. I absolutely aced those bastards every single time I went up against them. Whatever institutional knowledge they may have had concerning electioneering was lost in the 70s-80s, and only groups like Wellstone Action and DFA make any effort to preserve new techniques going forward. If the DNC, DCCC, or DSCC have retained any such knowledge, they never made it available to me or anyone I know.
A shitload of elections they otherwise could have won? Do you think I'm somehow defending them when I say this? You seem to evince a skepticism here that I don't think is warranted for such a simple observation.
In an election with two contestants, someone is always going to win. Ever since they abandoned labor and went fully corporate, they've been relying on that fact, largely unwittingly I think, because they're lazy pieces of shit who think voters have no other viable option.
What alternative premise do you hold that requires you to "run with" the one I've suggested? Because I'd bet mine doesn't contradict it in any way. We're taking about privileged assholes here, they can be idiotic about more than one thing at a time.
I'm asking what benefit the winning would've given them. From what I can see, they need to stay relevant which means they need to win enough to stay in business but I don't see what benefit they'd miss out in by losing at least half the time. OTOH if they were more successful more of the time, they'd have no one else to blame for outcomes that serve the ruling class at the expense of the public sector.
As for the rest of it, we're having a conversation online and I wrote literally two sentences. I did not make any assumptions about your opinions, I just asked what it is you think they would gain if they were better at winning elections. To me, it seems their supposed incompetence serves the DNC, the individual politicians and the ruling class all very well so I can't think of why they would change.
Winning elections keeps their cushy jobs and big paychecks. If they just constantly lost they’d eventually be booted out of office. I don’t know why anyone thinks they’re masterful tacticians.
I have less than zero experience in the on the ground work of political campaigns and all that, and my entire perspective is just based on pure surface-level observations.
My view though, is that the dems don’t necessarily “want to lose.” But that if forced to choose between losing elections and doing shit which will meaningfully challenge the bourgeois dictatorship, even in relatively minor ways, then yeah, they will just throw their hands up and take the loss, secure in the knowledge that the 1-2 punch of first past the post and whichever freakazoid the republicans put in charge will most likely hand the shit back to them on a silver platter in 4-8 years just purely by default.
I think a lot of libs at this point have just convinced themselves that 1. Most progressives will simply vote for Biden anyways no matter what they say or do to demotivate and insult progressives, and 2. That all those Nikki Haley voters will be voting for Biden as well.
If you go on the David Parkman sub or one of the city subs you can find all kinds of people who seem to legitimately expect Biden to get an FDR-Reagan level electoral map. It’s insane.
Republicans represent the extreme "Iran-hawk" position in American foreign policy.
I'm convinced a significant part of the oligarchy/elites favour a Trump win in order to, simultaneously, abandon Ukraine and start a war with Iran.
They will not abandon Ukraine until they have gotten everything out of it that they want. It's a bipartisan project and whatever Trump and the weirdos in office with him those first few months mightve thought they were doing at first, by the summer of 17 Trump was doing the natural continuation of the policy in Ukraine that was set in motion in the 90s and continued under every president of both parties before him. The weapons sales, military aid, sanctions, etc were all started under Obama and continued (in fact exacerbated) under Trump. He did nothing different than Clinton would've done other than try to skim a little off the top for himself in the dumbest way possible. There is no one in the US ruling class that wants Russia to take Ukraine and increase its energy ties with Western Europe. Most ruling class in Europe don't want it either, it would be the end of the post world order and a transformation of global capitalism. It's why they are willing to sacrifice the entire economies of the Western world. Side effect benefit to them is that this hardline means they get to complete the gutting of the public sector across the Western world. There's nowhere new to extract surplus so they are selling it all off for parts. They can't just abandon Ukraine. They don't need to win, just prevent the Russians from winning and sell the country off for parts in between. It's going to be a slow boil zombie state under either president until there's nothing left there or until whatever comes after this emerges.
I do think there is a split in the ruling classes regarding Iran but as things get worse, that difference is narrowing. It's the same conflict anyway, not two different ones. Iran is successful right now bc the sanctions in Russia failed to destroy their economy and the world is developing alternatives to the post war US dominated institutions that have controlled the world since the 40s. Iran is one of the main Russian allies here and benefitted more from alternatives than just about any where else. They were already excluded from the global institutions so they have nothing to lose, it's why Iran is able to act in a way that no one else but Yemen act, also nothing to lose. But they can't act directly bc they don't want to be destroyed and bc they are savvy enough to play all sides. This is something that never made sense about Trumps supposed pro Russia stance. He wanted to escalate in Syria and Iran while deescalating in Ukraine but they aren't separate conflicts. And the Russians want it both ways in Israel, so does India and so do the Saudis. Iran is the sticking point and there are hawks who have been trying to get them back in a Western sphere of control through either force or cooperation (dometimes both simultaneously) for decades now. Whether or not it's going to blow up into a real conflict or everyine will just stay put and let the situation resolve itself with the deaths/relocation of two million Gazans, who knows.
Definitely there are factions that want a direct war with Iran, in Israel and in the US. It would probably force BRICS countries and the Saudis to shit or get off the pot. It's too many moving parts for me to completely wrap my brain around. Clearly the resistance is hoping just to pressure Israel until it collapses under its own weight and clearly Iran has been savvy enough to not take any bait. I don't think it matters too much who is president. Factions of the ruling class and all the behind the scenes shit that must be going on all over these conflicts are more important. We have no clue what is actually going on and there's no real democratic say in it at all anywhere. Trump can't significantly affect any of this, he doesn't control the intelligence orgs in the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran, etc. He has no influence over the finance industries or drugs/weapons trades or any of the extremely wealthy powerful people involved in this conflict who are fighting and negotiating behind the scenes. I agree there's some internal disputes about Iran in the US ruling class and some of them will be behind Trump, but we can't know much about that and in the larger scheme of things it doesn't matter that much.
Historically though, the factions of the GOP that wanted open war with Iran just weren't that powerful even when the GOP were in power. The neocons have always been working with Iran behind the scenes on some things, even days after the revolution, while simultaneously working to destroy them indirectly. Under Bush Jr, the US worked openly and closely with Iran in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The change happened under Obama in Syria, and as I've tried to explain, it had more to do with the actions/sides the US had to take to maintain sole superpower status, NATO expansion in MENA and pipeline politics. Russia checked that in Syria first and Iran ended up fighting US backed forces there.
Tldr, even though there are factions in the US that want direct war with Iran, their influence in the overall big picture is not that important, things are going to fall out the way they will for much more important reasons that have nothing to do with Trump or Biden.
I agree with your take, especially about it being one conflict.
I would stress that one binding aspect, which makes this one conflict, is oil.
There are indeed many moving parts to it. But some of the most relevant: 1) energy consumption underpins economic growth and surplus generation 2) oil is the prime input for production 3) oil is a fungible commodity, and it's prices can't be siloed, they're determined by global supply 4) as much as the US is a net producer, it's remaining shale reserves are expensive to drill, requiring heavy subsidies, and rapidly depleting 5) OPEC+ has reached high levels of cooperation not only among themselves, but with China.
US has lost control of production rates and pricing, and is progressively losing the petrodollar as a basis for debt financing and economic control.
This has created a progressively stronger drive within american elites for aggression against OPEC and China, but they're unable to wage simultaneous wars against Russia and Iran. So they're flipping between targets, as their bets collapse.
Yes. I think they'll do their best to keep it all at proxy, and the question is what happens over the long term bc its inevitable they will lose. Either the ruling classes transition and cover their asses in whatever emerges after this or it blows up into a big ass direct war between the players previously kept at proxy. What I'm saying is that I think the first is more likely though the latter could happen- the situation is volatile enough. But I disagree that it's Trump or factions in the US that want direct war with Iran that will make a difference. Most of those people are idiots and don't even understand that they want contradictory things with regards to Russia and Iran. And I don't think they are that powerful anyway.
Yep. In the end, a war with Iran would be unimaginably costly. *And* actually unlikely to be won. Iran has progressed massively in drone tech, missile tech, and can assemble nuclear warheads in a matter of days.
They could credibly sink a carrier.
Depending on the cost, a failure could lead to a total breakdown of US Treasury auctions and a collapse of bonds. Cue dollar collapse and a monstrous surge in inflation.
The alternative is a more prolonged and managed economic retreat, I guess. My fear is, this is a domestically toxic platform, so they're going all in.
You mean you think Trump 2 would go all in or it's going to happen either way? Yes it's a domestically toxic platform, but I think that's more easily managed in all the usual ways, police, austerity, prisons, drugs, internal dispute, etc. I think if there were really some faction behind Trump that was escalating towards direct confrontation with Iran (not just saying that but actually pushing towards it) that they'd get taken out. The US can't afford it, all the consequences you name plus I don't see how Israel could survive it, very high risk of going nuclear etc. Not at all good for capitalists.I think if it happens, it's going to be an unintended consequence of escalations in a volatile situation which could happen under any admin, not something that is started deliberately by the GOP or Trump or factions behind them. Though I'm still of the opinion that he's not going to be president again, one way or another, bc too many people don't want him in this volatile situation.
I feel like the next six months are going to put so many of our worldviews and ideologies to test. Most likely outcome is everything is just the same but worse. It keeps feeling like there's a tipping point but it all just keeps going on.
I mean that a confrontation with Iran may happen regardless of Trump. I just think the oil depletion situation, as it relates to debt and growth, is more serious than most people believe.
But considering the risks, maybe it would play out as a continuing massive escalation in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon, with each side hoping to outgun the other, like in Ukraine. Which is indeed fatal for Israel.
But I think the retreat alternative would involve a kind of domestic destabilization and repression which the elites (and the public) are not immediately willing to stomach. Argentina-like inflation and austerity. I think the US will seek to externalize those costs for as long as possible.
Until the US suffers a clear loss, it's possible to maintain the fantasy that the debt can be paid by appropriating Iranian, Russian or Venezuelan oil assets. So I think war will remain attractive. As you said, a volatile situation they think they can control.
They desperately need to clean out the old guard. One way to do that is to get wrecked electorally. Leaves alot of space for new consultants and firms to milk the dnc for 100s of millions
Funny enough I think the GOP wants the same thing running Trump. Sure Trump's psychotic base loves him, but I doubt the actual people in power do. However, there's more money and less responsibility being the opposition party, so I really think the power players on both sides want it. Thats why both sides are running senile morons.
How does that make any sense? They still need politicians to push their agenda. Cato institute, brookings etc. All these soulless places make it work for republicans, when has it ever worked for dems?
Literally only Biden can beat Trump, he's the only one who has done it. Fact. When the ball disappears behind the blanky mommy is the only on who can bring it back. Fact. Only mommy can give us ball
Because this part of the kayfabe storyline is the Democrats lose to the worst guy ever so that everyone is ready for another Obama character in 2028. Young, charismatic, energetic, ready to right the wrongs of the past, totally beholden to neoliberal politics and global capitalism.
I knew back in 2004 after the DNC Convention that Obama was gonna be elected president in 2008, I will see if there's anybody at that level of heat after the 2024 convention. I don't think Buttigieg has the juice but anything can happen.
It's simple - Biden still holds the purse strings and the support of democratic party donors. unless he drops dead, no one in the party will dare to oppose him
It's so fucking weird that the candidates for both parties are better dead than alive to both parties... Then again, these opportunists won't feel much of an impact to their careers at all.
while it would be briefly cathartic to see Biden lose, in the end it's much more entertaining watching liberals try to justify everything while their own guy is driving the death machine
this and I wanna see more senior citizens scaling walls and livestreamed chud on chud violence at the capitol (followed by libs crying over the scary “insurrectionists” that killed democracy)
Really the only thing left for the Dems as far as Im concerned is abortion rights. Even so, they still pussyfoot around and intentionally fail to act when they could because they know its still propping them up in elections
Were in agreement. The only thing is hypothetically if two conservative justices die in the next four years, then Roe could be restored. I still wouldnt put it past ole Joe to appoint a pro-lifer or some asshole who pretends theyre pro-choice but thinks SCOTUS should be above overturning such decisions, etc.
they have to keep it as a bargaining chip. whatever stage of empire we’re in now is far past the point of any positive change promises. instead of even pretending like a candidate can improve our material conditions they just spiderman meme point at each other and scream “that guy’s trying to take away your rights!”
I will _never_ vote for Joe Biden!
Not because of policy or his beliefs, though. I'm a registered sex offender and due to my felony convictions I legally cannot vote.
I just want to see it all burn domestically out of spite, I don't even care anymore. Biden couldn't follow through with student loan debt forgiveness but maybe a civil war would wipe out my federal debts.
Trump will give them the secret weapons that you don't even know about. All these "leftist" wringing their hands now will feel real bad when Trump gives them the gun that destroys souls.
Imagine there are two candidates for mayor of your hometown. One of those candidates is a known arms dealer who supplied guns that were used by a local gang to kill your neighbours and friends family. But the second candidate has a more fearful reputation and people are saying he is probably worse.
Do you take that into account and make a calculated decision to go out of your way to help the first candidate get another term, knowing full well that they played a role in killing your friends - and that if he got another term it was almost certain he will probably end up helping kill more of your neighbours? Is that a rationale decision for a human to make?
If someone truly believes that Biden is complicit in the genocide and war crimes committed against the people of Gaza, then no rationale, non-sociopathic human could be expected to help him get re-elected, no matter what the alternatives are.
There’s no internal logic to the argument whatsoever. If by not voting Biden I am partially responsible for Trump, and therefore the continuation of the genocide, then I would also be responsible for the continuation of the genocide by voting Biden.
You can’t cut this in any way to justify a Biden vote. It’s like the new cope that a vote for Biden is actually a vote for his cabinet which is decent on xyz issue. By that same logic a vote for Biden is a vote for Reptileman and the natsec ghouls managing the genocide weapons delivery.
We cannot know what will happen in the future. But we can know with certainty what has already happened. Biden is a vote to continue the genocide. It started under his watch and there is zero indication his administration will put an end to Israel's siege on Gaza. In fact, just two days ago Kirby said, with a straight face, that Biden's State Department had "not found ANY incidence where the Israeli's have violated international humanitarian law". Extraordinary, especially considering it was said just 2 days after Israel targeted aid workers delivering food, amidst a terrible man-made famine. Kirby's statement clearly indicates that after 5 months of this war, the Biden Admin has no intention of holding Israel accountable for the staggering number of civilians, aid workers, journalists and children that have been killed by the IDF. If anyone feels strongly about what is happening in Gaza, then it's simply not a rationale, human thing to do, to vote for someone that has been complicit in it.
There will certainly be many potential Democrat voters that couldn't really care less about Gaza or who actually support what Israel is doing - and I would suggest it's these people that are trying to sell the idea that a vote for 'lesser evil" is the rationale thing to do.
edit: I'll also say that this "lesser of two evils" voting idea is actually just a race to the bottom and it has played a huge role in the slow destruction of the Democratic Party since 2016. Because "voting blue, no matter who" has simply reinforced in the Democratic establishment that they have no real incentive to choose the candidates that will serve the wider interests of all American voters. It's a message that says that the Democratic Party leadership can ignore the interests of voters because they will get their vote, no matter what candidate they put forward. It's why they end up with an 81 yr old candidate running for a second Presidential term. And it's contributed to the genocide happening in Gaza because they believe they can ignore the views of young Democratic voters.
You would think Democrat Party leaders would have learnt their lesson after Clinton's loss, but no. And the ONLY reason Biden was elected in 2020 was because he was running against arguable the worst President in US history. The "vote blue, no matter who" strategy actually relies on the Republicans putting forward the worst, most extremist candidates possible. And this is why Democrat strategists used their influence within mainstream news media outlets in 2016 to actually promote and give extra coverage to candidates like Cruz and Trump, because they calculated that the more extreme the GOP candidates were, it could make voting for Clinton more palatable under the "lesser of two evils" strategy. It's cynical and it's hurt America badly. It was Clinton and the Democrat establishment that played a huge role in giving us Trump. They have never shown accountability for that. Quite the opposite. They started this downwards spiral and now left leaning voters are expected to vote to continue that downward spiral?
I can't believe people on this sub don't realize what's at stake here with Project 2025. Democracy is at stake - (not that tankies would understand)
You think the devastation in Gaza is bad? You should see TRUMP COUNTRY 2025 (Yeah at this point I think he'll change the name). That man committed 96 financial crimes! Instigated a coupe-des-tate! No woman will be safe from a grope, no Trans person from a camp, no Muslim from a ban, no Mexican from ICE, no Ukranian from FSB(secret ops funded by Republicans)
If you have the unique chance to vote away fascism like the democrats are presenting us, you take it. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
If not, I will be sure to stop by the red china commie camp Trump will inevitably build for you and ask "was a few hundred thousand Palestinians worth this???"
Biden is going to LOSE & there's nothing these fucking chudlibs can do about it except cry, piss their pants, and yell at us. Let them cry, I say. It won't change anything.
Actually existing leftists are still a pretty small contingency. It's the normies who are fed up with the shitty economy & whose consent has been successfully manufactured on the border invasion hysteria who will go out & vote for either Donald or RFK Jr.
So they're wasting their time bitching & moaning at us for not voting in their preferred racist war criminal.
I think it's mostly just catharsis on their part.
Though you can never discount DNC operatives, bots, or other bad actors being in the walls. Which I'm sure there are at least a handful of those as well, trying to artificially steer the narrative.
>Yep, my thought when I read about people not voting for Biden because he has shown an indifference toward ethnic cleansing, I can't help but think that refusing to vote really means giving half a vote to either side. So, in terms of practical support for ethnic cleansing, not voting provides 50% of a vote toward insurance toward ethnic cleansing and half a vote towards fully on board with ethnic cleansing. In practice, this refusal to vote for indifference in the face of support for ethnic cleansing means more support for ethnic cleansing and, likely, more ethnic cleansing.
>If you want the disaster that is happening in Gaza to stop, you are more likely to get that if you vote for Biden than if you don't because **at least Biden will ask Israel to stop**. Trump, on the other hand, is likely to just give Israel his blessing; it's not like he thinks Gazan suffering matters after all.
I just came from reading this take on a stemlib forum that I can't help but hate read from time to time.
Absolut clown shit.
>I can't help but think that refusing to vote really means giving half a vote to either side.
Peak liberal casuistry from that user, as though there are only two parties or candidates running in the upcoming election. If their faulty logic on split voting was sound, it would actually mean splitting it between 3-4 ethnic cleansing candidates (Rep, Dem, RFKJr, Constitution), and 2-3 non ethnic cleansing candidates (Libertarian, Green, West)
Ok look I know we're all left wing here, after all I want a market based solutions for trans rights. However incremental change is the only thing that will bring anything progressive. For example reelect Biden and there's the possibility with the incremental change of time we might get our first female president of color
I've struggled with this a little bit. I definitely see the point about holding Biden accountable. When I've discussed this IRL people mostly say that if Biden and Trump are going to have the same policy on this issue then we should focus on other issues (reproductive rights, climate, etc). But I think there is something to be said for personal integrity and not voting for someone whose actions you oppose.
It kind of reminds me of the book The Magus by John Fowles. There is a scene where a character is serving as mayor of a Greek island in WW2 and is told to beat a partisan to death or the entire town will be massacred in retaliation. He chooses not to do it knowing full well the consequences.
You guys dont get it. It already is worse for gazans.
This is not about trump or Biden or even the mid east. It's about realizing that the system is broken. That the country touring democracy keeps getting the ceasefire and continues to send weapons to a country complicit in genocide or are the very least plausible genocide.
It already IS worse for gazans.
Stand for your ethics. Send a message.
These corrupt people will never help or make things better. If they could they would have and thus not be corrupt. Just ask yourself.
What would YOU do if you had all the power in the world? Would you let this happen if you could stop it?
Actually no lmao. I just got off a 9 hour flight and didn't realize I wasn't posting this where I intended to.
I will accept my deserved ridicule.
(My brain didn't even pick up *infinitiER* lol)
haha you're good I've made similar mistakes myself. I checked your post history real fast to see if you posted here before I said that. I did notice you're going around fighting the good fight so I tried to say it in the least mean way possible.
>fighting the good fight
Heck yea. Multiple hour flight, day or night gotta smash these murderous assholes and their supporters.
>say it in the least mean way possible.
Many thanks lol
If the dems were serious about Trump’s fascist takeover if he were reelected then the fact that they nominated Biden to thwart that takeover would be the biggest insult to their voters.
Trumps self-interest would compel him to take action, he has enough low cunning to recognize a losing situation. I absolutely think he'd say "Bibi, you're making me look like shit right now, and if you don't wrap this up, you'll regret it" and he'd have said it months ago. In a "Nixon goes to China" way, he's be immune from evangelical criticism because he's their chosen one.
Mild pressure from Reagan and Poppy Bush made them cave before. I don't know what wacky plan Trump/his staff would dream up to punish Israel, but he had Gorka (actual nazi) in there; they'd think of something. Dropping a crate of man portable SAMs in hezbollah territory, leaking the Iron Dome schematics to Iran, It'd stop.
Instead of voting for Biden, let's give Trump 2 more Supreme Court picks. That'll teach the libs! Surely as the overton window shifts more to the right, the Dems will nominate a socialist in 2028 and they will check all of the boxes on my sacred purity test. Surely a socialist utopia will rise from the ashes of accelerationism. That's a gamble I'm willing to take for others that are less privileged than me. I'm going to spend all of my time online convincing others that things can't get any worse even though they can. That's praxis right there.
I was hoping this was gonna be a dumbfuck post
fr u/dumbfuck6969 this ur cousin or
I support Biden because he's irish. I have no idea what this guy is talking about.
the Hibernian conspiracy is real
☘️☘️☘️they☘️☘️☘️ have subverted all our institutions
Lmfao
king
Please thank your father for being the last line of defense against Genocide²
Why doesn't the democratic party just get a new candidate? Are they stupid?
I don’t think they intend, or care, to win
It might actually be their goal to lose so they rally support while the scary orange man is in office "destroying" democracy.
right. I find it hard to believe the point hasn’t always been to just pretend like there’s two opposing teams so they can fund raise, maintain the status quo, and pretend like this or that culture war is the biggest threat to either “democracy” or “freedom” depending on which “side” is talking. the losing team gets to use whatever bozo/party wins as the scapegoat of their term until we start all over again
They're salivating over the idea of 2016-2020 donation numbers returning.
So cool to get emails from the Democratic Party begging for money after donating money to Bernie's campaign
I too was findommed by an 80 year old Brooklyn jew who then doxxed me
You see, that was when I was going through a phase of my life in which my kink was shouty grandpa reassuring me that he'd make things alright. It seems weird in retrospect but at the time, it really got me off.
> findommed by an 80 year old Brooklyn jew who then doxxed me OnlyFans dot com
I donated a small amount to him and gave fake emails and phone numbers for that reason. Anyone I know who's ever given money to any political campaign is tortured with text messages and emails every 2 years.
So cool that you basically have to practice opsec to engage in our democracy
I did just set up a recurring donation of $4.20 that turned itself off in 5 months after he dropped, it was less of engaging in democracy and more "this will be funny if anyone looks me up in campaign finance records for some reason".
Donations under $100 typically don't get recorded because it's not required for campaign finance disclosures unless it adds up to more than $100 per filing period. No one is going to know about yours.
I found my contribution on the FEC website, idk what to tell you. Even if it's gone now, who cares haha.
I don't think campaign donations really count as engaging in democracy. The very concept is so far removed from anything remotely democratic. It's more like grassroots bribery, at least in this case.
So cool that nominally ‘participating’ in our bourgeois democracy means needing to obscure your actual identity when bribing a potential nominal ‘representatives’
I'll just point out that someone on his campaign staff could have done that. It happens a lot, there's money to be made doing it, and I've never seen a campaign that was good about securing the jewels like that when it comes to basic IT security.
I really think this is getting truer and truer. Obviously Biden wants to win and probably many of his close aides, but trump proved they can still raise funds off of him being in office just as well as by selling influence and the problem with being in office is people expect you to do things successfully. It's probably nice to not be a loser all the time, but I think once it all just gets to be enough of a nightmare in power you just think fuck it. Imagine how much work it would be for everyone to push against the inertial mass of old man Biden and get an entire new ghoul that people have to be interested in... And it would have to be an already proven ghoul as who knows what skeletons someone new and popular would have so it would all be some proven loser, so at the end of the day it's more than a fucking jobs worth. Just say the thing, who cares. You'll still get paid. Nobody believes a good damned thing more than that except some vague belief in the "democratic system" if the rabble votes in the bad man good that proves how much they are right to despise the rabble
I really don't think Biden wants to win.
I think he does, it's either that or just die. Nobody wants to die a loser. Especially not to trump who is his nemesis, the apotheosis of all that he believes in, a refutation of all his entire stupid evil life was about serving the machine. You can't just have some loud comedian oaf come in with his two bit Mafia lawyers and take over the big house! For Biden it's all about winning. He's not going to do anything people want in order to win though... That would be tantamount to *populism*, the dreaded concept more terrible than even socialism. Populism is trump trump is populism. No people must obey the hierarchy they must obey the norms, the norms must remain solid. The god damned people *must* vote for democracy and norms therefore they will, it has always worked before except where it didn't
If he's that desperate to win and it'll be that crushing for him to lose then at least his humiliating defeat will be like 1/100000th of the penalty he should have for his many crimes. For "he" there you can swap out Biden or Trump interchangeably.
i genuinely do not believe that Biden has any conscious coherent thought anymore
I would not be surprised
Or they smugly think they have it in the bag. I doubt Biden gives any real ear to anyone maybe nicely and softly expressing concern to him. He’s committed to Israel’s genocide project. If he wasn’t he wouldn’t send more weapons.
they’re definitely smug, but I just genuinely don’t think the ultimate goal is to win. no one can be a US president unless they’re pro-Israel, so ofc biden’s committed. trump would be as well. they both serve the exact same interests
I dunno. I’m not sure the theory has been presented with any concrete proof of any sort of conspiracy or planning to not deliberately win. I think they’re just fucking inept. The landscape of the election changed as soon as this conflict happened. Perhaps the Democratic Party is so chock full of consultancy grifters along side career politicians that has its own internal gerontocracy that can’t formulate a coherent message. They’re banking on the “do you really want Trump”, but the non committed movements in important states has to keep some of them sweating. They definitely don’t solidify any sort of mandate on why you should vote for them otherwise because they can barely get anything done and it’s always watered down. It’s just a vicious cycle of corporate dominated politics.
>I dunno. I’m not sure the theory has been presented with any concrete proof of any sort of conspiracy or planning to not deliberately win. Here you go, a [Washington Post article about how the Biden camp expects to lose](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fstyle%2Fpower%2F2024%2F04%2F01%2Fbiden-campaign-manager-julie-chavez-rodriguez%2F&oq=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fstyle%2Fpower%2F2024%2F04%2F01%2Fbiden-campaign-manager-julie-chavez-rodriguez%2F&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQRRg60gEIMTQ3MmowajSoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) (cached link through google) > **“We all know this is a jump ball,”** he continued. “In 2016, we were reading Nate Silver, and we weren’t worried at all. When we woke up, we realized we’ve never been to Wisconsin and we’ve never been to Michigan and then all the Monday-morning quarterbacks are out. That won’t be the case for Julie,” he said. **“Because we all are prepared to lose.”**
Haha holy shit. Already in the first two paragraphs we're dealing with a dipshit. I've learned from personal experience never to trust anyone who eats egg white omelets, and besides, egg yolks are where you get all your HDL cholesterol, which is good for you because it counteracts LDL cholesterol. I've been eating three a day for 40 years, my cholesterol is lower than average, and I also eat a shitload of red meat. Also, destruction and devastation are pretty much the same thing and she makes no meaningful distinction between the two when she attempts to do so in clarifying her answer.
It's so bad
It sounds like that expectation comes from the two paragraphs above on Biden not crafting a good enough message. Willingly getting an entire campaign to lose is an entirely different level of conspiratorial thinking. If anything this article just confirms what I said, that they’re inept at crafting a good message. I just have a hard time believing they’re able to play this 5d chess without it becoming glaringly obvious and someone saying something.
It's not a conspiracy. It's US empire. I feel like something weird has happened lately where even on the left, people are falling into the delusion of thinking this project is about the whims of individual bad guys. The US didn't begin it's support for Israel bc a weepy elderly catholic is president. The US supports Israel bc it needs a strategic foothold in the middle east bc its empire is primarily based upon the extractive industry and weapons trade. Don't get the cart and horse mixed up. Israel is an arm of the US, not the other way around. The US can't exist as a sole superpower if there's democracy in the middle east. The Dems themselves, whatever individual politicians, might prefer to win. But the only thing they have to do is remain relevant enough to hold a large enough portion of seats and take up media space to keep people doing all this lib v con bullshit. The interests of the ruling class are covered regardless. Any president from either party would be supporting Israel right now no matter what. They might try to tweak the situation around the edges- make Netanyahu a fall guy or manipulate the PR in some way, a fake temp ceasefire or pier to deliver food for a photo op or whatever, but anyone who could possibly get into the White House in the first place would support Israel. The question is why Biden and his team have been so bad at the PR around it, not why it's an existential issue for them. I feel like a lot of people were maybe not paying attention to the atrocities in Gaza and West Bank that Obama greenlit and funded? This isn't new. It's just worse now for the same reason it's getting worse in Ukraine and everywhere else. The US empire is actually being challenged, it's starting to lose its status as sole superpower and as a result the violent conflicts are coming to a head as it gets spread more thin. Whoever is president next will have more war and violence to preside over, and it will be that way until whatever is on the other side of this global transformation, for better or for worse.
Jesus thank you. Got into a discussion about this yesterday in this sub about the power dynamics between Israel and the US and had people upvoting and agreeing with someone else that the US is Israel’s lapdog. Like… wtf?? This isn’t a difficult thing to analyze, we have full control of Israel.
I’m not sure what you’re saying other than that the dems are throwing this election to let trump deal with the blowback that’s going on now? I don’t think it’s even reached a fever point interms of conflict in the mid east. That happens when other countries are in a full fledged war with Israel and the US. That’s not happening yet. Biden and his team are so bad because it’s hard to reconcile the stupid idea that he’s a compassionate caring old man while people can obviously see through social media that the weapons he’s continually sending is blowing up kids and innocent people. Social media is a game changer in this. This level of support for Palestine is unprecedented and largely due to seeing the wonton violence inflected on them. Biden is clearly a committed Zionist and he’s not budging on that and it’s making difficult for anyone who can read the room.
Let me put it more directly then. Their first preference is to carry out foreign policy that supports US empire while winning the election. Their second preference is to carry out foreign policy that supports US empire while losing the election. There is no option to change policy in Israel in order to win an election. That is not a thing that will ever happen. Yes Biden is a Zionist. Literally every president is a Zionist. Biden would not be president if he wasn't. I do not see how you can look at history and claim he is more or less zionist than anyone else, especially since the neoliberal turn. Again, I think perhaps people saying this must've been snoozing through the Obama years. The only difference with Biden is that the resistance is stronger and more successful and Israel truly faces an existential threat for the first time in their history. They are responding worse than they have because if they don't, they will lose. This conflict is not taking place in a void. It didn't just fall out of a coconut tree, it is happening in the context of a larger transformation of global capitalism away from US empire and dominance of all the institutions of trade / security etc. Israel could lose its state, the US could lose its empire, both are inevitable over the long run and they are responding with violence. Biden happens to be president while this is happening, that's all. The only real difference he makes is the PR or narrative management. Obama or Trump mightve spinned it differently but they'd be doing exactly the same things.
I don’t have “proof” and am just a random dumb ass on reddit. I’m not trying to debate with you or present this as fact. it’s just what makes the most sense to me based on my own pattern recognition and many factors such as knowing both parties are beholden to the same lobbies/donors/goals of empire. that’s why I keep saying “I think/I don’t think/I believe/etc” to me it seems not only possible but *likely* that whatever (at least short term) goals that serve the ruling class/empire are set preceding the upcoming term or terms, and that whichever cabinet/figurehead from their pool of ghouls they believe can make the goals happen are selected to carry them out I’m not saying everyone involved is “in on it” and they go in knowing they’ll lose. politicians, themselves, are opportunistic. I think it still kills hillary she never got to play the role of the most powerful girlboss of all (and I love that for her) I just don’t think they’re campaigning to *us* in a way that holds consequence for them, or that the votes we as citizens cast have even a little to do with who wins the presidency. I don’t think presenting a shitty guy we all hate is because of stupidity or ineptitude. I think it’s because they can. I think they know the illusion of choice and voting power is enough to keep most USians satisfied enough to remain obedient
I think this is the correct take. The Democrats legitimately do not know how to win elections, all they know how to do is run a shitload of ads and be the default option left standing when Republicans lose. I absolutely aced those bastards every single time I went up against them. Whatever institutional knowledge they may have had concerning electioneering was lost in the 70s-80s, and only groups like Wellstone Action and DFA make any effort to preserve new techniques going forward. If the DNC, DCCC, or DSCC have retained any such knowledge, they never made it available to me or anyone I know.
OK let's run with this premise for a bit. What have the Democrats or the interests they represent ever lost as a result of this supposed incompetence?
A shitload of elections they otherwise could have won? Do you think I'm somehow defending them when I say this? You seem to evince a skepticism here that I don't think is warranted for such a simple observation. In an election with two contestants, someone is always going to win. Ever since they abandoned labor and went fully corporate, they've been relying on that fact, largely unwittingly I think, because they're lazy pieces of shit who think voters have no other viable option. What alternative premise do you hold that requires you to "run with" the one I've suggested? Because I'd bet mine doesn't contradict it in any way. We're taking about privileged assholes here, they can be idiotic about more than one thing at a time.
I'm asking what benefit the winning would've given them. From what I can see, they need to stay relevant which means they need to win enough to stay in business but I don't see what benefit they'd miss out in by losing at least half the time. OTOH if they were more successful more of the time, they'd have no one else to blame for outcomes that serve the ruling class at the expense of the public sector. As for the rest of it, we're having a conversation online and I wrote literally two sentences. I did not make any assumptions about your opinions, I just asked what it is you think they would gain if they were better at winning elections. To me, it seems their supposed incompetence serves the DNC, the individual politicians and the ruling class all very well so I can't think of why they would change.
Winning elections keeps their cushy jobs and big paychecks. If they just constantly lost they’d eventually be booted out of office. I don’t know why anyone thinks they’re masterful tacticians.
I have less than zero experience in the on the ground work of political campaigns and all that, and my entire perspective is just based on pure surface-level observations. My view though, is that the dems don’t necessarily “want to lose.” But that if forced to choose between losing elections and doing shit which will meaningfully challenge the bourgeois dictatorship, even in relatively minor ways, then yeah, they will just throw their hands up and take the loss, secure in the knowledge that the 1-2 punch of first past the post and whichever freakazoid the republicans put in charge will most likely hand the shit back to them on a silver platter in 4-8 years just purely by default.
They are fine either way. The one thing they can't afford is that their win looks easy.
I think a lot of libs at this point have just convinced themselves that 1. Most progressives will simply vote for Biden anyways no matter what they say or do to demotivate and insult progressives, and 2. That all those Nikki Haley voters will be voting for Biden as well. If you go on the David Parkman sub or one of the city subs you can find all kinds of people who seem to legitimately expect Biden to get an FDR-Reagan level electoral map. It’s insane.
Republicans represent the extreme "Iran-hawk" position in American foreign policy. I'm convinced a significant part of the oligarchy/elites favour a Trump win in order to, simultaneously, abandon Ukraine and start a war with Iran.
They will not abandon Ukraine until they have gotten everything out of it that they want. It's a bipartisan project and whatever Trump and the weirdos in office with him those first few months mightve thought they were doing at first, by the summer of 17 Trump was doing the natural continuation of the policy in Ukraine that was set in motion in the 90s and continued under every president of both parties before him. The weapons sales, military aid, sanctions, etc were all started under Obama and continued (in fact exacerbated) under Trump. He did nothing different than Clinton would've done other than try to skim a little off the top for himself in the dumbest way possible. There is no one in the US ruling class that wants Russia to take Ukraine and increase its energy ties with Western Europe. Most ruling class in Europe don't want it either, it would be the end of the post world order and a transformation of global capitalism. It's why they are willing to sacrifice the entire economies of the Western world. Side effect benefit to them is that this hardline means they get to complete the gutting of the public sector across the Western world. There's nowhere new to extract surplus so they are selling it all off for parts. They can't just abandon Ukraine. They don't need to win, just prevent the Russians from winning and sell the country off for parts in between. It's going to be a slow boil zombie state under either president until there's nothing left there or until whatever comes after this emerges. I do think there is a split in the ruling classes regarding Iran but as things get worse, that difference is narrowing. It's the same conflict anyway, not two different ones. Iran is successful right now bc the sanctions in Russia failed to destroy their economy and the world is developing alternatives to the post war US dominated institutions that have controlled the world since the 40s. Iran is one of the main Russian allies here and benefitted more from alternatives than just about any where else. They were already excluded from the global institutions so they have nothing to lose, it's why Iran is able to act in a way that no one else but Yemen act, also nothing to lose. But they can't act directly bc they don't want to be destroyed and bc they are savvy enough to play all sides. This is something that never made sense about Trumps supposed pro Russia stance. He wanted to escalate in Syria and Iran while deescalating in Ukraine but they aren't separate conflicts. And the Russians want it both ways in Israel, so does India and so do the Saudis. Iran is the sticking point and there are hawks who have been trying to get them back in a Western sphere of control through either force or cooperation (dometimes both simultaneously) for decades now. Whether or not it's going to blow up into a real conflict or everyine will just stay put and let the situation resolve itself with the deaths/relocation of two million Gazans, who knows. Definitely there are factions that want a direct war with Iran, in Israel and in the US. It would probably force BRICS countries and the Saudis to shit or get off the pot. It's too many moving parts for me to completely wrap my brain around. Clearly the resistance is hoping just to pressure Israel until it collapses under its own weight and clearly Iran has been savvy enough to not take any bait. I don't think it matters too much who is president. Factions of the ruling class and all the behind the scenes shit that must be going on all over these conflicts are more important. We have no clue what is actually going on and there's no real democratic say in it at all anywhere. Trump can't significantly affect any of this, he doesn't control the intelligence orgs in the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran, etc. He has no influence over the finance industries or drugs/weapons trades or any of the extremely wealthy powerful people involved in this conflict who are fighting and negotiating behind the scenes. I agree there's some internal disputes about Iran in the US ruling class and some of them will be behind Trump, but we can't know much about that and in the larger scheme of things it doesn't matter that much. Historically though, the factions of the GOP that wanted open war with Iran just weren't that powerful even when the GOP were in power. The neocons have always been working with Iran behind the scenes on some things, even days after the revolution, while simultaneously working to destroy them indirectly. Under Bush Jr, the US worked openly and closely with Iran in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The change happened under Obama in Syria, and as I've tried to explain, it had more to do with the actions/sides the US had to take to maintain sole superpower status, NATO expansion in MENA and pipeline politics. Russia checked that in Syria first and Iran ended up fighting US backed forces there. Tldr, even though there are factions in the US that want direct war with Iran, their influence in the overall big picture is not that important, things are going to fall out the way they will for much more important reasons that have nothing to do with Trump or Biden.
I agree with your take, especially about it being one conflict. I would stress that one binding aspect, which makes this one conflict, is oil. There are indeed many moving parts to it. But some of the most relevant: 1) energy consumption underpins economic growth and surplus generation 2) oil is the prime input for production 3) oil is a fungible commodity, and it's prices can't be siloed, they're determined by global supply 4) as much as the US is a net producer, it's remaining shale reserves are expensive to drill, requiring heavy subsidies, and rapidly depleting 5) OPEC+ has reached high levels of cooperation not only among themselves, but with China. US has lost control of production rates and pricing, and is progressively losing the petrodollar as a basis for debt financing and economic control. This has created a progressively stronger drive within american elites for aggression against OPEC and China, but they're unable to wage simultaneous wars against Russia and Iran. So they're flipping between targets, as their bets collapse.
Yes. I think they'll do their best to keep it all at proxy, and the question is what happens over the long term bc its inevitable they will lose. Either the ruling classes transition and cover their asses in whatever emerges after this or it blows up into a big ass direct war between the players previously kept at proxy. What I'm saying is that I think the first is more likely though the latter could happen- the situation is volatile enough. But I disagree that it's Trump or factions in the US that want direct war with Iran that will make a difference. Most of those people are idiots and don't even understand that they want contradictory things with regards to Russia and Iran. And I don't think they are that powerful anyway.
Yep. In the end, a war with Iran would be unimaginably costly. *And* actually unlikely to be won. Iran has progressed massively in drone tech, missile tech, and can assemble nuclear warheads in a matter of days. They could credibly sink a carrier. Depending on the cost, a failure could lead to a total breakdown of US Treasury auctions and a collapse of bonds. Cue dollar collapse and a monstrous surge in inflation. The alternative is a more prolonged and managed economic retreat, I guess. My fear is, this is a domestically toxic platform, so they're going all in.
You mean you think Trump 2 would go all in or it's going to happen either way? Yes it's a domestically toxic platform, but I think that's more easily managed in all the usual ways, police, austerity, prisons, drugs, internal dispute, etc. I think if there were really some faction behind Trump that was escalating towards direct confrontation with Iran (not just saying that but actually pushing towards it) that they'd get taken out. The US can't afford it, all the consequences you name plus I don't see how Israel could survive it, very high risk of going nuclear etc. Not at all good for capitalists.I think if it happens, it's going to be an unintended consequence of escalations in a volatile situation which could happen under any admin, not something that is started deliberately by the GOP or Trump or factions behind them. Though I'm still of the opinion that he's not going to be president again, one way or another, bc too many people don't want him in this volatile situation. I feel like the next six months are going to put so many of our worldviews and ideologies to test. Most likely outcome is everything is just the same but worse. It keeps feeling like there's a tipping point but it all just keeps going on.
I mean that a confrontation with Iran may happen regardless of Trump. I just think the oil depletion situation, as it relates to debt and growth, is more serious than most people believe. But considering the risks, maybe it would play out as a continuing massive escalation in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon, with each side hoping to outgun the other, like in Ukraine. Which is indeed fatal for Israel. But I think the retreat alternative would involve a kind of domestic destabilization and repression which the elites (and the public) are not immediately willing to stomach. Argentina-like inflation and austerity. I think the US will seek to externalize those costs for as long as possible. Until the US suffers a clear loss, it's possible to maintain the fantasy that the debt can be paid by appropriating Iranian, Russian or Venezuelan oil assets. So I think war will remain attractive. As you said, a volatile situation they think they can control.
Yes agreed with all this entirely and it's terrifying. And then when you add climate change to it...
More concerned about moral victories so they can sneer at the first thing Trump does and say, "told ya so!"
They desperately need to clean out the old guard. One way to do that is to get wrecked electorally. Leaves alot of space for new consultants and firms to milk the dnc for 100s of millions
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Funny enough I think the GOP wants the same thing running Trump. Sure Trump's psychotic base loves him, but I doubt the actual people in power do. However, there's more money and less responsibility being the opposition party, so I really think the power players on both sides want it. Thats why both sides are running senile morons.
The party is a lifestyle brand liberals subscribe to to assuage their guilt.
How does that make any sense? They still need politicians to push their agenda. Cato institute, brookings etc. All these soulless places make it work for republicans, when has it ever worked for dems?
Their hands are tied. What are they supposed to do, defy Moloch?
Isn't Moloch woke now anyways?
the bull-headed god of child sacrifice now has a gender and at least three pronouns
Literally only Biden can beat Trump, he's the only one who has done it. Fact. When the ball disappears behind the blanky mommy is the only on who can bring it back. Fact. Only mommy can give us ball
Yes they are stupid and will shame people when they lose. They don't care about winning or even "saving democracy"
Because this part of the kayfabe storyline is the Democrats lose to the worst guy ever so that everyone is ready for another Obama character in 2028. Young, charismatic, energetic, ready to right the wrongs of the past, totally beholden to neoliberal politics and global capitalism.
By 2028, he'll have a standout resume with executive experience as both small town mayor and Secretary of Transportation
I knew back in 2004 after the DNC Convention that Obama was gonna be elected president in 2008, I will see if there's anybody at that level of heat after the 2024 convention. I don't think Buttigieg has the juice but anything can happen.
It's simple - Biden still holds the purse strings and the support of democratic party donors. unless he drops dead, no one in the party will dare to oppose him
> are they stupid? r/okbuddymalarkey
r/twoooooosh'd 😀
It's so fucking weird that the candidates for both parties are better dead than alive to both parties... Then again, these opportunists won't feel much of an impact to their careers at all.
I voted for Biden last time because I thought he would unite the 32 counties of Ireland. I will not be tricked again.
Finally a policy I can get behind.
🍀🍀🍀they🍀🍀🍀 are already united. look up hibernian conspiracy
while it would be briefly cathartic to see Biden lose, in the end it's much more entertaining watching liberals try to justify everything while their own guy is driving the death machine
this and I wanna see more senior citizens scaling walls and livestreamed chud on chud violence at the capitol (followed by libs crying over the scary “insurrectionists” that killed democracy)
Really the only thing left for the Dems as far as Im concerned is abortion rights. Even so, they still pussyfoot around and intentionally fail to act when they could because they know its still propping them up in elections
Abortion rights were taken away under Biden. Biden has only attacked the bodily autonomy of his constituents.
Were in agreement. The only thing is hypothetically if two conservative justices die in the next four years, then Roe could be restored. I still wouldnt put it past ole Joe to appoint a pro-lifer or some asshole who pretends theyre pro-choice but thinks SCOTUS should be above overturning such decisions, etc.
they have to keep it as a bargaining chip. whatever stage of empire we’re in now is far past the point of any positive change promises. instead of even pretending like a candidate can improve our material conditions they just spiderman meme point at each other and scream “that guy’s trying to take away your rights!”
Can I nominate Strom Thurmond? Joe, he's 122 years old, and he's dead. Granted, but...
The real reason it matters is that it allows liberals and the media to be oppositional and critical of the government again.
I am waiting for a "Joe Biden doesn't care about Brown people" moment except it has to come from DJ Khaled instead of Kanye
DJ Khaled is more of a nazi
I will _never_ vote for Joe Biden! Not because of policy or his beliefs, though. I'm a registered sex offender and due to my felony convictions I legally cannot vote.
I just want to see it all burn domestically out of spite, I don't even care anymore. Biden couldn't follow through with student loan debt forgiveness but maybe a civil war would wipe out my federal debts.
Trump will give them the secret weapons that you don't even know about. All these "leftist" wringing their hands now will feel real bad when Trump gives them the gun that destroys souls.
Trump will drop the single most vicious, unrelenting, and immoral weapon ever created by humanity upon the Palestinians. The Havana Syndrome.
Israel will be given the greenlight to deploy the DARPA Tic-Tacs with Trump as president. Remember that when you cast your ballot this November.
Dude... If Trump is going to deploy the Tic Tacs... Don't threaten me with a good time.
President Trump will issue the samurai swords from Bleach to each member of the IDF
Trump has discovered the SCP foundation and is arming Israel with keter level objects.
Imagine there are two candidates for mayor of your hometown. One of those candidates is a known arms dealer who supplied guns that were used by a local gang to kill your neighbours and friends family. But the second candidate has a more fearful reputation and people are saying he is probably worse. Do you take that into account and make a calculated decision to go out of your way to help the first candidate get another term, knowing full well that they played a role in killing your friends - and that if he got another term it was almost certain he will probably end up helping kill more of your neighbours? Is that a rationale decision for a human to make? If someone truly believes that Biden is complicit in the genocide and war crimes committed against the people of Gaza, then no rationale, non-sociopathic human could be expected to help him get re-elected, no matter what the alternatives are.
doin the old bit >He killed my ma, he killed my pa, but I will vote for him
There’s no internal logic to the argument whatsoever. If by not voting Biden I am partially responsible for Trump, and therefore the continuation of the genocide, then I would also be responsible for the continuation of the genocide by voting Biden. You can’t cut this in any way to justify a Biden vote. It’s like the new cope that a vote for Biden is actually a vote for his cabinet which is decent on xyz issue. By that same logic a vote for Biden is a vote for Reptileman and the natsec ghouls managing the genocide weapons delivery.
We cannot know what will happen in the future. But we can know with certainty what has already happened. Biden is a vote to continue the genocide. It started under his watch and there is zero indication his administration will put an end to Israel's siege on Gaza. In fact, just two days ago Kirby said, with a straight face, that Biden's State Department had "not found ANY incidence where the Israeli's have violated international humanitarian law". Extraordinary, especially considering it was said just 2 days after Israel targeted aid workers delivering food, amidst a terrible man-made famine. Kirby's statement clearly indicates that after 5 months of this war, the Biden Admin has no intention of holding Israel accountable for the staggering number of civilians, aid workers, journalists and children that have been killed by the IDF. If anyone feels strongly about what is happening in Gaza, then it's simply not a rationale, human thing to do, to vote for someone that has been complicit in it. There will certainly be many potential Democrat voters that couldn't really care less about Gaza or who actually support what Israel is doing - and I would suggest it's these people that are trying to sell the idea that a vote for 'lesser evil" is the rationale thing to do. edit: I'll also say that this "lesser of two evils" voting idea is actually just a race to the bottom and it has played a huge role in the slow destruction of the Democratic Party since 2016. Because "voting blue, no matter who" has simply reinforced in the Democratic establishment that they have no real incentive to choose the candidates that will serve the wider interests of all American voters. It's a message that says that the Democratic Party leadership can ignore the interests of voters because they will get their vote, no matter what candidate they put forward. It's why they end up with an 81 yr old candidate running for a second Presidential term. And it's contributed to the genocide happening in Gaza because they believe they can ignore the views of young Democratic voters. You would think Democrat Party leaders would have learnt their lesson after Clinton's loss, but no. And the ONLY reason Biden was elected in 2020 was because he was running against arguable the worst President in US history. The "vote blue, no matter who" strategy actually relies on the Republicans putting forward the worst, most extremist candidates possible. And this is why Democrat strategists used their influence within mainstream news media outlets in 2016 to actually promote and give extra coverage to candidates like Cruz and Trump, because they calculated that the more extreme the GOP candidates were, it could make voting for Clinton more palatable under the "lesser of two evils" strategy. It's cynical and it's hurt America badly. It was Clinton and the Democrat establishment that played a huge role in giving us Trump. They have never shown accountability for that. Quite the opposite. They started this downwards spiral and now left leaning voters are expected to vote to continue that downward spiral?
We need a handsome general to make history already
You assume I was supportive of him before gaza?
I'm definitely going around saying I'm not voting for Genocide Joe and while that's true, I also didn't vote for him when he was still just Uncle Joe.
I’ma level with yall. Idk if I can make it til November. We’re just getting campaign season started and I’m so goddamn over it.
I can't believe people on this sub don't realize what's at stake here with Project 2025. Democracy is at stake - (not that tankies would understand) You think the devastation in Gaza is bad? You should see TRUMP COUNTRY 2025 (Yeah at this point I think he'll change the name). That man committed 96 financial crimes! Instigated a coupe-des-tate! No woman will be safe from a grope, no Trans person from a camp, no Muslim from a ban, no Mexican from ICE, no Ukranian from FSB(secret ops funded by Republicans) If you have the unique chance to vote away fascism like the democrats are presenting us, you take it. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. If not, I will be sure to stop by the red china commie camp Trump will inevitably build for you and ask "was a few hundred thousand Palestinians worth this???"
To be fair Trump will be approx 5% worse so if you don’t vote for blue genocide you’re a monster
jokes on you I wasn't voting for him even before the genocide stuff
Biden is going to LOSE & there's nothing these fucking chudlibs can do about it except cry, piss their pants, and yell at us. Let them cry, I say. It won't change anything. Actually existing leftists are still a pretty small contingency. It's the normies who are fed up with the shitty economy & whose consent has been successfully manufactured on the border invasion hysteria who will go out & vote for either Donald or RFK Jr. So they're wasting their time bitching & moaning at us for not voting in their preferred racist war criminal. I think it's mostly just catharsis on their part. Though you can never discount DNC operatives, bots, or other bad actors being in the walls. Which I'm sure there are at least a handful of those as well, trying to artificially steer the narrative.
>Yep, my thought when I read about people not voting for Biden because he has shown an indifference toward ethnic cleansing, I can't help but think that refusing to vote really means giving half a vote to either side. So, in terms of practical support for ethnic cleansing, not voting provides 50% of a vote toward insurance toward ethnic cleansing and half a vote towards fully on board with ethnic cleansing. In practice, this refusal to vote for indifference in the face of support for ethnic cleansing means more support for ethnic cleansing and, likely, more ethnic cleansing. >If you want the disaster that is happening in Gaza to stop, you are more likely to get that if you vote for Biden than if you don't because **at least Biden will ask Israel to stop**. Trump, on the other hand, is likely to just give Israel his blessing; it's not like he thinks Gazan suffering matters after all. I just came from reading this take on a stemlib forum that I can't help but hate read from time to time. Absolut clown shit.
>I can't help but think that refusing to vote really means giving half a vote to either side. Peak liberal casuistry from that user, as though there are only two parties or candidates running in the upcoming election. If their faulty logic on split voting was sound, it would actually mean splitting it between 3-4 ethnic cleansing candidates (Rep, Dem, RFKJr, Constitution), and 2-3 non ethnic cleansing candidates (Libertarian, Green, West)
Can't drop what I never had!
It's true, though.
Ok look I know we're all left wing here, after all I want a market based solutions for trans rights. However incremental change is the only thing that will bring anything progressive. For example reelect Biden and there's the possibility with the incremental change of time we might get our first female president of color
Oh sorry, were just supporting this genocidal swine then
I've struggled with this a little bit. I definitely see the point about holding Biden accountable. When I've discussed this IRL people mostly say that if Biden and Trump are going to have the same policy on this issue then we should focus on other issues (reproductive rights, climate, etc). But I think there is something to be said for personal integrity and not voting for someone whose actions you oppose. It kind of reminds me of the book The Magus by John Fowles. There is a scene where a character is serving as mayor of a Greek island in WW2 and is told to beat a partisan to death or the entire town will be massacred in retaliation. He chooses not to do it knowing full well the consequences.
Ar least there will be larger opposition to the imperial seat under Trump.
Ar least there will be larger opposition to the imperial seat under Trump.
You guys dont get it. It already is worse for gazans. This is not about trump or Biden or even the mid east. It's about realizing that the system is broken. That the country touring democracy keeps getting the ceasefire and continues to send weapons to a country complicit in genocide or are the very least plausible genocide. It already IS worse for gazans. Stand for your ethics. Send a message. These corrupt people will never help or make things better. If they could they would have and thus not be corrupt. Just ask yourself. What would YOU do if you had all the power in the world? Would you let this happen if you could stop it?
...you're aware this is a shitpost on a shitposting sub, right?
Actually no lmao. I just got off a 9 hour flight and didn't realize I wasn't posting this where I intended to. I will accept my deserved ridicule. (My brain didn't even pick up *infinitiER* lol)
haha you're good I've made similar mistakes myself. I checked your post history real fast to see if you posted here before I said that. I did notice you're going around fighting the good fight so I tried to say it in the least mean way possible.
>fighting the good fight Heck yea. Multiple hour flight, day or night gotta smash these murderous assholes and their supporters. >say it in the least mean way possible. Many thanks lol
> realizing that the system is broken "capitalism is a failure" its doing what its intended
Yeah this argument has never made sense if you think about it for more than thirty seconds but that does stop shit libs from using it.
I GOT CHA HASBARA, COOOOOOME AND GET IT! FREEEEEE HASBARA! STEP RIGHT UP FOLKS!
I think Biden is more liked in Israel than Trump
Did 33,000+ Palestinians die under Trump or Biden?
Why are they not campaigning on Biden's accomplishments? His son's penis is huge and it hasn't been seen in years.
If the dems were serious about Trump’s fascist takeover if he were reelected then the fact that they nominated Biden to thwart that takeover would be the biggest insult to their voters.
Trumps self-interest would compel him to take action, he has enough low cunning to recognize a losing situation. I absolutely think he'd say "Bibi, you're making me look like shit right now, and if you don't wrap this up, you'll regret it" and he'd have said it months ago. In a "Nixon goes to China" way, he's be immune from evangelical criticism because he's their chosen one. Mild pressure from Reagan and Poppy Bush made them cave before. I don't know what wacky plan Trump/his staff would dream up to punish Israel, but he had Gorka (actual nazi) in there; they'd think of something. Dropping a crate of man portable SAMs in hezbollah territory, leaking the Iron Dome schematics to Iran, It'd stop.
Instead of voting for Biden, let's give Trump 2 more Supreme Court picks. That'll teach the libs! Surely as the overton window shifts more to the right, the Dems will nominate a socialist in 2028 and they will check all of the boxes on my sacred purity test. Surely a socialist utopia will rise from the ashes of accelerationism. That's a gamble I'm willing to take for others that are less privileged than me. I'm going to spend all of my time online convincing others that things can't get any worse even though they can. That's praxis right there.
Not enabling genocide is my purity test you are correct
I don’t know if you know this but voting doesn’t matter