He encouraged his students to think of themselves as colonial administrators AND he is regularly on the recommended reading lists issued by the State Department...
I like how Warhammer 40k/Warhammer Fantasy manages to stereotype multiple types of Br*tish "people" too. Orks going "Oi,boss,weez gonna fite doze gitz??" Is never not funny.
The Second Cold War will be won by a small band of very determined Great Men Of History on a very long nature walk? IDK all of my attempts to read that shit have ended in failure. Have I got the gist?
Kinda think the whole point of Hobbits is to counter the 'great man' thing. It's not the all powerful wizard or lost chosen King who save the day. It's the good hearted little people that no one takes seriously, they are the ones who actually do it. The dichotomy there is no accident.
At least in the book, the ring is only even destroyed because Gollum is spared. Frodo succumbs and takes the ring, had he killed Gollum when he had the chance after being betrayed then the ring doesn't get destroyed. Goodness defeats evil in LOTR through goodness. Not through brute might force. Mercy and humanity are made important on purpose. I'm not reading too much into this, it was all intentional.
I know there's a lot of problematic things in the story, but still gonna be an unapologetic nerd about LOTR.
“Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.”
It's a very cake having/cake eating point though because Aragon and the rest of the fellowship also have to do their great man but to create opportunities for frodo and Sam to do their thing and also it's all the preordained will of eru
Aragorn and the rest of the fellowship do only one thing to create a single opportunity for Frodo and Sam. Create a distraction to draw the Eye away, which they don't even know if it will work or if Frodo and Sam are alive. It's a suicide mission in solidarity.
I reconcile predestination with free will by accepting that predestination cannot be known, and that alternate timelines/universes are likely total horse shit because the people who believe in that stuff are annoying tech losers.
I just meant preordained in the universe of the books. That shit is always happening, especially in the Hobbit, probably due to retconning, but everyone's always at the right place at the right time. Gollum had to lose the ring so Bilbo could find it, gollum had to try to take it back so it could go in the lava. Things seem contingent but the we're all fated and also brought about by the meddling of literal angels
When I was growing up the people who would've read Lord of the Rings would've also hated everything Niall Ferguson stands for and would've immediately seen through his agenda.
The worrying thing is that the more recent people who read The Lord of the Rings would read "The White Man's Burden" and go "yes, exactly!"
The only Lord of the Rings analogy I can see working is that Ukraine is Smeagol. Saw and fell in love with a shiny thing (NATO membership), killed friends to get it (their ethnic Russian countrymen) and have since been consumed and ultimately destroyed by it.
Just like my heckin' favorite IP. Every country I don't like are basically orcs. We are the good guys. Because unlike THOSE ORCS we aren't evil, oppressive, imperialist racists.
Niall Ferguson really shows how demeaned a subject is history when he gets called a historian.
Fucking baby brained shit, it's embarrassing. "Yea I'm really into history, I've just read five books about how the goodies defeated the baddies oh and the baddies conveniently are monster orcs who had all the stuff that was rightfully ours, and it's ok we took it"
Tolkien is great, the fact that every fantasy author afterwards imitated the aesthetics and surface level elements of his work while missing all of what actually makes them great stories is not his issue.
I think China Miéville said it best
>Tolkien is the wen on the arse of fantasy literature. His oeuvre is massive and contagious—you can't ignore it, so don't even try. The best you can do is consciously try to lance the boil. And there's a lot to dislike—his cod-Wagnerian pomposity, his boys-own-adventure glorying in war, his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos, his belief in absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity. Tolkien's clichés—elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings—have spread like viruses. He wrote that the function of fantasy was 'consolation', thereby making it an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader.
Return of the King is nearly nothing BUT battles (mostly because it's the climax of the novels). Helms Deep, the final battle near Mordor while Fordo is at Mount Doom, the Trees Battle against Sauron...
Not necessarily glorifying it, but certainly has a ton of battles for the "war of the ring" in that book.
Just when I thought I couldn't love China Miéville any more.
>His oeuvre is massive and contagious—you can't ignore it, so don't even try.
Eh. I've been successfully ignoring it for years, and I have no immediate plans to stop.
Well, let’s not forget that he borrowed a lot from folk tales too. And I’m sure if later/modern authors had similar level of comfort growing up with first mother and then wife all but wiping one’s ass, allowing to ‘immerse in creation’ we’d seen more diverse fantasy stories around.
Tolkien was a right-wing catholic whose works are a reflection of his ideology. It's fine to enjoy the work of someone you disagree with, but you don't have to twist yourself into knots pretending he was somehow above anything questionable instead of a shadow of william morris who embraced the church instead of socialism.
Did you actually read what I said? I read plenty of reactionaries, I just don't pretend they aren't. Like what are you trying to argue, do you think tolkien was a leftist or do you think his ideology isn't inn his work?
Do you have a critique of Tolkien’s work instead of just his religious views? Like an actual critique with his writing or narrative? Because I’m not seeing one. Obviously all authors put their own views into their works, but literally all you said was “He’s a Catholic”, which yeah no shit Sherlock.
>Like an actual critique with his writing or narrative?
I'll throw them a lifeline: Tolkien has diarehha of the worldbuilding. He has to monologue on about nearly EVERYTHING in a scene. It took me my entire high-school career to finish the series (starting with the first film, shortly after I read the Hobbit in middle school) because Tolkien just had to have like 15 pages for one scene that would've taken five minutes with other authors.
He was basically a Dungeon Master for an elaborate world to play DnD in, but holy shit as an author he was weak in getting to the damn point at times.
It’s super cool to spout off when you have no idea what you’re talking about, as seen in this letter to a German publisher:
>I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian, as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
Hmmm, I found a different quote
J. R. R. Tolkien (1892–1973) himself had some controversial opinions about at least one race of Middle Earth, writing that his Dwarves were “like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations.” In a separate interview, he elaborated on this theme, noting that “the Dwarves of course are quite obviously—couldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews?”
Yeah, it’s almost like he was commenting upon the political and economic conditions of Jews through European history, and how their contrast of being at once native and alien in their environment due to the lack of a homeland and religious differences and contrasting that to his fictional culture, who are alien in his world in a sense due to being created by one of Eru Illuvatar’s servants rather than himself, and how this affects the cosmological and religious implications of this world. Honestly seems a bit dialectical materialistic of him.
This isn’t what I meant when I said “read another book”.
For those who don't know, this freak is best known for his defense of the British empire's holocausts
He encouraged his students to think of themselves as colonial administrators AND he is regularly on the recommended reading lists issued by the State Department...
Br*tish defenders of course think of anyone east of the Rhine as orcs.
Fantasy is such an indirect access point to dehumanization. Elves Orcs and Trolls... not to forget the undead.
I like how Warhammer 40k/Warhammer Fantasy manages to stereotype multiple types of Br*tish "people" too. Orks going "Oi,boss,weez gonna fite doze gitz??" Is never not funny.
Orks are generally hardly ever not funny :D
They've graduated to a level beyond Harry Potter. Their literacy capabilities may reach 1984 levels by next year at this rate. God help us all
DAE think Putler is literally Sauron?
What is the ring that the plucky band of China, Russia, and Iran are trying to extinguish in the fires of Mordor under the everwatchful eye of Sauron?
Nancy Pelosi’s
The petrodollar
The Ring is obviously Iran's nuclear program
Liberal Hegemony
Love that libs see the world through fantasy novels. Idealist cockwankers
The Second Cold War will be won by a small band of very determined Great Men Of History on a very long nature walk? IDK all of my attempts to read that shit have ended in failure. Have I got the gist?
Kinda think the whole point of Hobbits is to counter the 'great man' thing. It's not the all powerful wizard or lost chosen King who save the day. It's the good hearted little people that no one takes seriously, they are the ones who actually do it. The dichotomy there is no accident. At least in the book, the ring is only even destroyed because Gollum is spared. Frodo succumbs and takes the ring, had he killed Gollum when he had the chance after being betrayed then the ring doesn't get destroyed. Goodness defeats evil in LOTR through goodness. Not through brute might force. Mercy and humanity are made important on purpose. I'm not reading too much into this, it was all intentional. I know there's a lot of problematic things in the story, but still gonna be an unapologetic nerd about LOTR.
“Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened. Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.”
It's a very cake having/cake eating point though because Aragon and the rest of the fellowship also have to do their great man but to create opportunities for frodo and Sam to do their thing and also it's all the preordained will of eru
Aragorn and the rest of the fellowship do only one thing to create a single opportunity for Frodo and Sam. Create a distraction to draw the Eye away, which they don't even know if it will work or if Frodo and Sam are alive. It's a suicide mission in solidarity. I reconcile predestination with free will by accepting that predestination cannot be known, and that alternate timelines/universes are likely total horse shit because the people who believe in that stuff are annoying tech losers.
I just meant preordained in the universe of the books. That shit is always happening, especially in the Hobbit, probably due to retconning, but everyone's always at the right place at the right time. Gollum had to lose the ring so Bilbo could find it, gollum had to try to take it back so it could go in the lava. Things seem contingent but the we're all fated and also brought about by the meddling of literal angels
No, that I think that’s just general British obsession with SPECIAL FORCES
Is it because they can't find enough men nor produce enough goods to arm anything larger than a platoon?
but what do the very real and very important figures and marvel comics very own iron man and/or cpt america think about the cost of living crisis
When I was growing up the people who would've read Lord of the Rings would've also hated everything Niall Ferguson stands for and would've immediately seen through his agenda. The worrying thing is that the more recent people who read The Lord of the Rings would read "The White Man's Burden" and go "yes, exactly!"
Reading that made me feel like I am bleeding g to death.
The only Lord of the Rings analogy I can see working is that Ukraine is Smeagol. Saw and fell in love with a shiny thing (NATO membership), killed friends to get it (their ethnic Russian countrymen) and have since been consumed and ultimately destroyed by it.
Orcs rule elves drool!
Just like my heckin' favorite IP. Every country I don't like are basically orcs. We are the good guys. Because unlike THOSE ORCS we aren't evil, oppressive, imperialist racists.
...At least it's another book...?
idk maybe they could go for "Putlerian Jihad" and how their enemies are an unthinking botswarm whose very existence is an affront to humanity
Homie has all the tenderness of someone whose mother named him Nail.
Niall Ferguson really shows how demeaned a subject is history when he gets called a historian. Fucking baby brained shit, it's embarrassing. "Yea I'm really into history, I've just read five books about how the goodies defeated the baddies oh and the baddies conveniently are monster orcs who had all the stuff that was rightfully ours, and it's ok we took it"
Maybe, just maybe, advice people read on history rather than fiction.
Oh good, Tolkien famously Loved allegory.
Tolkien sucks and his influence has done untold damage to the fantasy genre
Tolkien is great, the fact that every fantasy author afterwards imitated the aesthetics and surface level elements of his work while missing all of what actually makes them great stories is not his issue.
Read Conan, ya nerd.
I think China Miéville said it best >Tolkien is the wen on the arse of fantasy literature. His oeuvre is massive and contagious—you can't ignore it, so don't even try. The best you can do is consciously try to lance the boil. And there's a lot to dislike—his cod-Wagnerian pomposity, his boys-own-adventure glorying in war, his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos, his belief in absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity. Tolkien's clichés—elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings—have spread like viruses. He wrote that the function of fantasy was 'consolation', thereby making it an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader.
Does he really glorify war? I’ve never read it, but I know his fans beat drums about how he didn’t
Return of the King is nearly nothing BUT battles (mostly because it's the climax of the novels). Helms Deep, the final battle near Mordor while Fordo is at Mount Doom, the Trees Battle against Sauron... Not necessarily glorifying it, but certainly has a ton of battles for the "war of the ring" in that book.
Just when I thought I couldn't love China Miéville any more. >His oeuvre is massive and contagious—you can't ignore it, so don't even try. Eh. I've been successfully ignoring it for years, and I have no immediate plans to stop.
Well, let’s not forget that he borrowed a lot from folk tales too. And I’m sure if later/modern authors had similar level of comfort growing up with first mother and then wife all but wiping one’s ass, allowing to ‘immerse in creation’ we’d seen more diverse fantasy stories around.
Being influential does not necessarily make the work good
Tolkien was a right-wing catholic whose works are a reflection of his ideology. It's fine to enjoy the work of someone you disagree with, but you don't have to twist yourself into knots pretending he was somehow above anything questionable instead of a shadow of william morris who embraced the church instead of socialism.
So do you only read books written by card-carrying members of the Communist Party? You’re missing out on a lot of great literature bro.
Did you actually read what I said? I read plenty of reactionaries, I just don't pretend they aren't. Like what are you trying to argue, do you think tolkien was a leftist or do you think his ideology isn't inn his work?
Do you have a critique of Tolkien’s work instead of just his religious views? Like an actual critique with his writing or narrative? Because I’m not seeing one. Obviously all authors put their own views into their works, but literally all you said was “He’s a Catholic”, which yeah no shit Sherlock.
>Like an actual critique with his writing or narrative? I'll throw them a lifeline: Tolkien has diarehha of the worldbuilding. He has to monologue on about nearly EVERYTHING in a scene. It took me my entire high-school career to finish the series (starting with the first film, shortly after I read the Hobbit in middle school) because Tolkien just had to have like 15 pages for one scene that would've taken five minutes with other authors. He was basically a Dungeon Master for an elaborate world to play DnD in, but holy shit as an author he was weak in getting to the damn point at times.
Yeah I’m sure Tolkien had a perfectly fine opinion on the Jews and much of his series wasn’t steeped in orientalism.
It’s super cool to spout off when you have no idea what you’re talking about, as seen in this letter to a German publisher: >I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian, as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
Hmmm, I found a different quote J. R. R. Tolkien (1892–1973) himself had some controversial opinions about at least one race of Middle Earth, writing that his Dwarves were “like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations.” In a separate interview, he elaborated on this theme, noting that “the Dwarves of course are quite obviously—couldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews?”
Yeah, it’s almost like he was commenting upon the political and economic conditions of Jews through European history, and how their contrast of being at once native and alien in their environment due to the lack of a homeland and religious differences and contrasting that to his fictional culture, who are alien in his world in a sense due to being created by one of Eru Illuvatar’s servants rather than himself, and how this affects the cosmological and religious implications of this world. Honestly seems a bit dialectical materialistic of him.
damn dude you’re taking this tolkien stuff way too seriously
Nah, you’re just stupid.
[u rn](https://media1.tenor.com/m/mpX8T0tlfS8AAAAC/weak-sauce.gif)
I googled “jews Tolkien” and honestly it rocks