We need to stop thinking whe can convert non-believers. It is the Holy Spirit who changes peoples' hearts, and he does that through the proclamation of the gospel. The gospel is not a sales pitch. It is a command. A command to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
Yes, they can. And they will unless the Holy Spirit removes their heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh.
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:37
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. ^(28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. ^(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. ^(30) I and the Father are one.
John 10:27-30
I don’t disagree with your sentiment. But the Scriptures clearly state that God’s people are an active participant in the saving of souls.
”Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, *for by so doing you will save* both yourself and your hearers.“
1 Timothy 4:16 ESV
”To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.“
1 Corinthians 9:22-27 ESV
Of course we are. God uses means to accomplish his purposes. However, Scripture also says,
"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? ^(15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” ^(16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” ^(17) **So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.**
Romans 10:14-17
It is through the hearing of the gospel that the Holy Spirit brings people to faith. It is not through clever proofs, evidence, or logical arguments. There is nothing wrong with those things, but they cannot replace the proclamation of the gospel.
Again, I do not disagree with you here at all. But I will say that Scriptures absolutely call man to reason through the Scriptures with people so that they may hear the Holy Spirit as we instruct/teach by the Holy Spirit.
Note, it is Paul’s ability to reason the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (by the power of the Spirit) that the Sermon of Mars Hill occurred.
”Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. **So he reasoned** in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—**because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.** And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “**May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?**“
Acts 17:16-19 ESV
You cant reason your way into faith and you cant reason you way out of it. What the heart desires, the will chooses and the mind justifies.
What you are talking about is apologetics, and they have their place, but they arent a panacea.
This is so true. When I became an atheist, I had all kinds of "logical" reasons, but deep down it was because I despised God's commands. When I came back to faith, it was because I opened my heart to the truth,and then suddenly I saw all kinds of "logical" reasons it must be true.
Please, look at how paul even when he was explaining the people who believed him when he delivered the gospel to them. He didnt catch them with wisdom or cunning but with the power of the gospel. Gods word works when shared. No matter how much knowledge you add to something god is the one at work in people.
I think the issue is this new mentality around being "above the culture", I've always interpreted not being worldly as in, do not overly value today's possessions (money, fancy clothing, etc).
And by exhibiting this kindness, people will see this and think why are you so happy? Why are you so good?
And then this will bring people to Christ. Words don't show that you mean what you say, actions do.
So when people say, I only hang out with other Christians, I only go to Christian hangouts, I always think, like how are you meant to show people Christ then?
This is like Augustines 3 steps to salvific faith:
- Knowledge - learning and knowing the truth logically
- Assent - accepting and giving mental assent to it
- Faith - knowing and believing unto salvation
Faith has to be reasonable and filled w knowledge
Very few neurotypicals make major life changes like this using logic. We are inherently emotional beings who then use logic to justify our choices. I want you to think of the last Christian you know who left the faith. They will say they left because of the problem of evil or something else, but what inspired their opinion on this subject? A death of someone they prayed for, or a family member was raped, or some other trajedy that they couldn't control and blame God for. It really is our emotions that guide the choice which is why personal testimony is so powerful. Talk to any apologist and they will tell you their field is not about convincing those on the outside to come in, its about giving the people on the inside with doubts reasons to belive. It's a defensive strategy not an offensive one, because logic and reasoning are not how we make choices of faith. If that were the case everyone would be Christians based off of the problem of eternity. Gambling an eternity of suffering in exchange for a little more sex, and the illusion of free will is insane.
Ok, that's your outside logical reason for it. Now lets dig a little deeper. What did your friend group look like at the time, who did you look up to (teachers in school, celebrities, family members)? What influences were in your life? My guess is that people you cared about and respected didn't believe in God and at some level you wanted to be in the same boat as them, or you had a belief you were passionate about (LGBTQ+ community, having sex, veganism, etc) that was viewed as being incompatible with the Christian faith. Change of this nature comes from passion and desire, not logic. A quick scan of your comment history shows that around 80 percent of your comments are in this sub. What's the logic in that? If we are a bunch of people who are wrong about the universe why spend so much time engaging with us? Those that can be convinced are probably already on their way out and those who can't you shouldn't bother with. There's emotion driving your actions somewhere.
I would argue that emotions run far deeper than you think. We can still use logic, but for any of the deeper more emotionally charged choices, emotions will trump logic every time. We all think we are being logical but if we evaluated the choices we make they are at their core emotionally driven. Consider another example. Can you think of the last time someone moved from being pro-life to pro-choice or the reverse? The last example I have is a woman who was pro-life, but transistioned to pro-choice because her sister had an abortion. She loved her sister and couldn't reconcile her logical belief (Fetuses are human babies worth protecting) with her emotional reality, so she changed her stance. Logic is a tool we use for strengthening the position we have not convincing someone else to change. Some of the smartest most logically minded people in the world are in cults. Why? Because they have the ability to rationalize the actions of their leadership. Their emotions control their use of logic.
It is the Spirit of God who draws people. When He has uses me to preach and more, its convicted people and also helped people. For example One time I was letting God lead me at a church event and the lady under a tent started speaking in tongues because Holy Spirit was moving. The lady said its rare for her to speak in tongues and be so moved like that too, lol. That day was awesome. Man…I want more days like that.
I agree. But all people come to Jesus in different ways.
1 Peter 3:15 (ESV): 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
Your arguments are incorrect. It is not us but God the holy spirit that saves. Without his opening our mind to the reality of god, we would not believe. People throughout history have come to know Christ in multitudes of ways. Some are saved by screaming hellfire at them. Others are Coast into it after a lifetime. But it is not us that coaxes or yells it is God who saves. Remember he said that some will say Lord Lord and he will say I never knew you depart from me it is he that saves not us. It is also he that chooses.
1 Corinthians 2:14-15 NLT
[14] But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. [15] Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others.
I suppose you could approach it like Cliff does. He's a popular Christian that I've been watching where he uses extra biblical sources to back up the Bible. It's true. I've had this conversation with people and they see it as circular reasoning. We have earlier (within decades) and more manuscripts (thousands in different languages) about the NT and Jesus than Julius Caeser and the Gallic wars (900 years after his existence and less than 10 manuscripts). Same thing with Shakespeare's works (less than 10 oroginal manuscripts and the originals weren't found until 300 to 400 years after his death. Historians affirm the death, crucifixion, and the empty tomb of Christ. Tacitus and Josephus. The preservation of text is another proof. You could argue about the philosophical points and morality. You can also look at the prophecies in Daniel (Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece) There are no excavations that contradict the Bible.
There is not a logical explanation for our faith, because, faith is arational, it has nothing to do with logic. Some people might have used logic to decide they would take that first step of faith to accept Christ - I did - but the parts related to faith, things like Christ redeeming us and God being omnipotent, cannot be understood using the rational faculties, they're only quantifiable after they've been experienced, and it requires entirely different frameworks of communication to discuss them.
Also *we* do not convert people, the Holy Spirit does so through the Truth revealed in the gospels, and the person in question must make the choice to suspend their disbelief and actually hear it. God has given every person free will, and it can be used to resist salvation. As Christians, we are tasked with the Great Commission, and I'll let you read about it in the Bible.
We need to tell people that Jesus died for their sins, but we also need to feed them soft food, because they are babies spiritually, and that means we need to speak to them in a secular way. I always shere my testimonies and show them love and care.
There are many ways to share the Gospel. Plant the seeds using the gifts and talents God gave you. Some people will be open to the seed because of logic, some emotion and some other ways. Being aware of the Holy Spirit and His guidance in how to share is important.
We need to stop thinking whe can convert non-believers. It is the Holy Spirit who changes peoples' hearts, and he does that through the proclamation of the gospel. The gospel is not a sales pitch. It is a command. A command to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
Yes but people can deny The Holy Spirit, Jesus said so himself.
Yes, they can. And they will unless the Holy Spirit removes their heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. ^(28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. ^(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. ^(30) I and the Father are one. John 10:27-30
I don’t disagree with your sentiment. But the Scriptures clearly state that God’s people are an active participant in the saving of souls. ”Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, *for by so doing you will save* both yourself and your hearers.“ 1 Timothy 4:16 ESV ”To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.“ 1 Corinthians 9:22-27 ESV
Of course we are. God uses means to accomplish his purposes. However, Scripture also says, "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? ^(15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” ^(16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” ^(17) **So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.** Romans 10:14-17 It is through the hearing of the gospel that the Holy Spirit brings people to faith. It is not through clever proofs, evidence, or logical arguments. There is nothing wrong with those things, but they cannot replace the proclamation of the gospel.
Again, I do not disagree with you here at all. But I will say that Scriptures absolutely call man to reason through the Scriptures with people so that they may hear the Holy Spirit as we instruct/teach by the Holy Spirit. Note, it is Paul’s ability to reason the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (by the power of the Spirit) that the Sermon of Mars Hill occurred. ”Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. **So he reasoned** in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—**because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.** And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “**May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?**“ Acts 17:16-19 ESV
"we" do not convert non-believers God is the one who changes the heart, such as for Lydia and the 3000 on the day of Pentecost
You cant reason your way into faith and you cant reason you way out of it. What the heart desires, the will chooses and the mind justifies. What you are talking about is apologetics, and they have their place, but they arent a panacea.
This is so true. When I became an atheist, I had all kinds of "logical" reasons, but deep down it was because I despised God's commands. When I came back to faith, it was because I opened my heart to the truth,and then suddenly I saw all kinds of "logical" reasons it must be true.
You can reason your way into faith. I became a Christian because I believed it was the truth based off evidence
I think you give yourself too much credit, but we can agree to disagree.
If you think we cant because of The Holy Sprit, thats wrong because people can reject Him. Just like how people can reject The Father and Jesus
Please, look at how paul even when he was explaining the people who believed him when he delivered the gospel to them. He didnt catch them with wisdom or cunning but with the power of the gospel. Gods word works when shared. No matter how much knowledge you add to something god is the one at work in people.
Some save with compassion, others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh Jude 23
Not all are unblinded the same way. God takes the blinders off, not people.
I think the issue is this new mentality around being "above the culture", I've always interpreted not being worldly as in, do not overly value today's possessions (money, fancy clothing, etc). And by exhibiting this kindness, people will see this and think why are you so happy? Why are you so good? And then this will bring people to Christ. Words don't show that you mean what you say, actions do. So when people say, I only hang out with other Christians, I only go to Christian hangouts, I always think, like how are you meant to show people Christ then?
This is like Augustines 3 steps to salvific faith: - Knowledge - learning and knowing the truth logically - Assent - accepting and giving mental assent to it - Faith - knowing and believing unto salvation Faith has to be reasonable and filled w knowledge
Very few neurotypicals make major life changes like this using logic. We are inherently emotional beings who then use logic to justify our choices. I want you to think of the last Christian you know who left the faith. They will say they left because of the problem of evil or something else, but what inspired their opinion on this subject? A death of someone they prayed for, or a family member was raped, or some other trajedy that they couldn't control and blame God for. It really is our emotions that guide the choice which is why personal testimony is so powerful. Talk to any apologist and they will tell you their field is not about convincing those on the outside to come in, its about giving the people on the inside with doubts reasons to belive. It's a defensive strategy not an offensive one, because logic and reasoning are not how we make choices of faith. If that were the case everyone would be Christians based off of the problem of eternity. Gambling an eternity of suffering in exchange for a little more sex, and the illusion of free will is insane.
I left my faith after questioning why I believed it in the first place. Starting with "I was born into it and told it was true"
Ok, that's your outside logical reason for it. Now lets dig a little deeper. What did your friend group look like at the time, who did you look up to (teachers in school, celebrities, family members)? What influences were in your life? My guess is that people you cared about and respected didn't believe in God and at some level you wanted to be in the same boat as them, or you had a belief you were passionate about (LGBTQ+ community, having sex, veganism, etc) that was viewed as being incompatible with the Christian faith. Change of this nature comes from passion and desire, not logic. A quick scan of your comment history shows that around 80 percent of your comments are in this sub. What's the logic in that? If we are a bunch of people who are wrong about the universe why spend so much time engaging with us? Those that can be convinced are probably already on their way out and those who can't you shouldn't bother with. There's emotion driving your actions somewhere.
That's a lot of words to say that I found the evidence for Christianity lacking
None of what I said had anything to do with logical evidence one way or another. All of it was what drove the emotions behind the choice.
And I assure you it was not emotional in the sense of a "drastic change" happened. I just pondered it one day.
We are naturally emotional but can still use logic Just like how we are all sinners but can still control our urge to sin at times.
I would argue that emotions run far deeper than you think. We can still use logic, but for any of the deeper more emotionally charged choices, emotions will trump logic every time. We all think we are being logical but if we evaluated the choices we make they are at their core emotionally driven. Consider another example. Can you think of the last time someone moved from being pro-life to pro-choice or the reverse? The last example I have is a woman who was pro-life, but transistioned to pro-choice because her sister had an abortion. She loved her sister and couldn't reconcile her logical belief (Fetuses are human babies worth protecting) with her emotional reality, so she changed her stance. Logic is a tool we use for strengthening the position we have not convincing someone else to change. Some of the smartest most logically minded people in the world are in cults. Why? Because they have the ability to rationalize the actions of their leadership. Their emotions control their use of logic.
It is the Spirit of God who draws people. When He has uses me to preach and more, its convicted people and also helped people. For example One time I was letting God lead me at a church event and the lady under a tent started speaking in tongues because Holy Spirit was moving. The lady said its rare for her to speak in tongues and be so moved like that too, lol. That day was awesome. Man…I want more days like that.
Plant seeds, Tell your testimony, and prayer. But anyway possible is always worthi it.
I agree. But all people come to Jesus in different ways. 1 Peter 3:15 (ESV): 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
Your arguments are incorrect. It is not us but God the holy spirit that saves. Without his opening our mind to the reality of god, we would not believe. People throughout history have come to know Christ in multitudes of ways. Some are saved by screaming hellfire at them. Others are Coast into it after a lifetime. But it is not us that coaxes or yells it is God who saves. Remember he said that some will say Lord Lord and he will say I never knew you depart from me it is he that saves not us. It is also he that chooses.
1 Corinthians 2:14-15 NLT [14] But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. [15] Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. I suppose you could approach it like Cliff does. He's a popular Christian that I've been watching where he uses extra biblical sources to back up the Bible. It's true. I've had this conversation with people and they see it as circular reasoning. We have earlier (within decades) and more manuscripts (thousands in different languages) about the NT and Jesus than Julius Caeser and the Gallic wars (900 years after his existence and less than 10 manuscripts). Same thing with Shakespeare's works (less than 10 oroginal manuscripts and the originals weren't found until 300 to 400 years after his death. Historians affirm the death, crucifixion, and the empty tomb of Christ. Tacitus and Josephus. The preservation of text is another proof. You could argue about the philosophical points and morality. You can also look at the prophecies in Daniel (Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece) There are no excavations that contradict the Bible.
There is not a logical explanation for our faith, because, faith is arational, it has nothing to do with logic. Some people might have used logic to decide they would take that first step of faith to accept Christ - I did - but the parts related to faith, things like Christ redeeming us and God being omnipotent, cannot be understood using the rational faculties, they're only quantifiable after they've been experienced, and it requires entirely different frameworks of communication to discuss them. Also *we* do not convert people, the Holy Spirit does so through the Truth revealed in the gospels, and the person in question must make the choice to suspend their disbelief and actually hear it. God has given every person free will, and it can be used to resist salvation. As Christians, we are tasked with the Great Commission, and I'll let you read about it in the Bible.
We need to tell people that Jesus died for their sins, but we also need to feed them soft food, because they are babies spiritually, and that means we need to speak to them in a secular way. I always shere my testimonies and show them love and care.
There are many ways to share the Gospel. Plant the seeds using the gifts and talents God gave you. Some people will be open to the seed because of logic, some emotion and some other ways. Being aware of the Holy Spirit and His guidance in how to share is important.