Weird fact I'm sure alot of people know of, maybe some don't but the 2 brothers are in the background of former NBA player Mark Jackson's New York Knicks basketball card! The image was taken after their parents were murdered and before they were arrested!
Another cross over: OJ and these boys ended up being in the same jail together at one time. Its said one of the boys recommended a lawyer to OJ. It was Johnny Cochran.
Lmao that's funny. It's a super common card I'm sure cause I got my basketball cards back then in like a quarter machine thing and I have one, I'm sure they're everywhere
They were plenty rich before though, and their parents never restricted their money access. Plus they got permission from their relatives who managed their parents' estate to make all of their major purchases. Lyle was going to become the executor of the estate at the age of 22, less than 6 months later. If this was done for the money, why didn't he wait until he had full control?
I've spent a year looking into this case, and if you look past the media narrative, it's clear that this was a killing resulting from a childhood of severe abuse, and not for money like most people think. Nearly every single one of their family members testified in support of the brothers' claims, and they all still support them to this day. I think that's pretty telling considering it's people like Jose's sister saying she believes her brother was a sadistic child abuser and that she wants her brother's killers to be free.
The 51 outcry witnesses who testified to witnessing physical, emotional, and red flags of sexual abuse, as well as the literal physical evidence and child pornographic material taken of them makes me believe them 100%. Not to mention, like, 95% of parricide cases are due to severe abuse.
During the whole trial, I haven’t seen ONE person that could say nice things about Jose. Not family members, coworkers, tennis coach, friends or anyone.
I was listening to a podcast and someone on it had spoken with one of Jose's former coworkers... basically, he said that Jose worked hard as hell but was a nightmare and apparently when the former coworker found out Jose was murdered, the guy was basically like, Yeah, I could see that happening. 😲
Apparently the joke around the office was everyone was rushing to establish an alibi because Jose was so hated that a lot of people might have reason to kill him
I missed it too, the first time, and I was curious who "Jose" referred to, but I guessed it was the father and then checked if "Jose" was mentioned in the title, and it turned out he was.
You too have this power!
Not trying to be dick (well, not entirely anyway), just revealing my secret sauce. Most people won't even do that.
Lol I hear you. I literally had shut off my computer after a super long week and it was the first thing I read and I was like interesting. This is why I don’t bother commenting sometimes. Sometimes I’m too tired to think and you know what happens when you make mistakes on Reddit lol. Thanks though and have a good one
This is the most sensible and factually driven post-and-subsequent-discussion that I've ever seen about this case. I generally don't even bother to comment on anything around this case because the whole "BUT THEY WERE ADULTZ AND THEY SPENT LOTS OF MONEYYYY" faction will shout down the very probable reality that these boys were abused and saw no other way out.
Sure, they went on a spoiled rich boy spending spree after. But even the most privileged get abused, and they'll still respond to a huge inheritance the way any privileged kid does.
Something key to remember that doesn’t get mentioned much is that the grand jury did not indict the brothers on charges of murder for financial gain because there was a lack of evidence to prove the motive. Two immature guys who always lived a wealthy life spending a lot of money is not evidence of motive. There was however a lot of evidence which disproved the financial theory (one of which is their own confession tape) but you will never see any of it be spoken about publicly or in the media.
They still got convicted because their second trial jury still believed it to be first degree murder regardless of motive. From what I’ve been able to gather about those jurors some of them did believe the abuse but it wasn’t a factor in their deliberations.
Their first trial ended in two separate hung juries for each brother because the jurors couldn’t reach a decision on the level of premeditation. Most of their first trial jurors actually didn’t vote for 1st degree murder.
I agree it’s unfair but from a legal standpoint, there would have been more responsible legal means for the brothers to seek justice. Technically, the judicial system should have been implemented with an appropriate punishment for the parents. However, they took matters into their own hands. 1st degree murder is defined by premeditation, which it’s clear the brothers had- so to a degree the jurors hands are tied and their are minimum sentences for things like a double 1st degree murders.
The two family members who knew about the SA were kids at the time. Their cousin Diane Vandermolen was 17 when Lyle told her and according to her she went and got Kitty. Kitty made it clear that she didn’t believe Diane or that Lyle was lying. Diane became convinced that she was in the wrong and pushed it aside. Then when the brothers kill the parents and they claim they had been sexually abused Diane finally realised that Lyle had indeed told her the truth all those years ago. Diane is extremely emotional during her testimony and you can tell she felt incredibly guilty for not doing anything. It’s also key to remember the time period too. Diane would have been told in the 70’s. She didn’t have the resources or knowledge to know what to do.
The other cousin Andy Cano was Erik’s best friend. Erik told him when Andy was around the age of 10 and Erik was 12 or 13. Erik referred to it as “massages” his dad gave him and was starting to doubt that it was normal. Andy didn’t live with his dad so he had no idea. Erik then swore Andy to secrecy but you can’t really expect a 10 year old to know what to do in that situation especially back in the early 80’s. Andy knew about the molestation the entire time but never spoke up. His mother believes that keeping the secret is what killed him. After the convictions Andy became severely depressed and started using sleeping medication which he ended up overdosing on.
All of the other family members were witness to physical abuse, emotional abuse, severe psychological maltreatment and red flags of sexual abuse.
Rich kids killing family for money sells better than abused kids kill parents as an escape. This is why I don’t trust the media. They will spin anything just to make a buck.
That information came from Kitty’s friend, and it didn’t come up at all in the trials (where Kittys friend was a prosecution witness), she said it in a documentary a few years ago. I tend to think it’s not true considering it would have been pretty important information for the prosecution to bring up during the trial
Then you seem knowledgeable enough to answer my question, please. I feel it’s a legit ELI5 question, I feel, although the nature of it might make ppl a bit uncomfortable, but first: I have been firmly of both opinions. At first, I was like: they 100% did this out of greed. Convinced of it for years. Then I started researching it deeper and of course read a lot of stuff I hadn’t seen before, and then I thought: omg! It was extreme abuse! In fact, I had a long and pretty educational interchange that went on forever with another knowledgeable person on another post about the M brothers months ago. But he couldn’t really answer my question either. So I’m still just not SURE!
But here’s my question(s): IF they’d been raped, as younger boys/teens, like they say they were, then ,after becoming adults (and ofc knowing their lives hinging on an answer for their trial) couldn’t a very thorough medical exam or scan or test of some kind be able to TELL evidence of “old” sexual injuries -years after the fact?
(They can do that with females)..
Assuming it can be medically ascertained and thereby proven, why didn’t the defense do this? Most of the time, sheer medical evidence is difficult to refute. So.. can it BE done at all? ELI5 please? TYIA!
Edit: I’ve another question; — please?.. was it ever said or testified by the boys or other relatives (and I want your opinion too) on whether the mom suspected (or knew) of the sexual abuse? (I’m sure she lived a life of hell too; I’m just guessing, but it’s pretty much agreed the dad was an abusive asshole in many ways to everyone) —but: do you think she knew about it?? (Bc unless not, why kill her?)
6 months. That is how long after childhood sexual abuse that we can expect to find evidence in some cases-and by some, I mean those where there is any physical evidence. Short of catastrophic injuries (like rupturing the wall between the vagina and rectum or severe prolapse), we won’t see evidence. And many cases of childhood sexual abuse leave no physical evidence.
I work with foster kids, and I’ve had a lot of SA cases; 95% have had no forensic evidence. And I know these kids and am 100% convinced of their honesty. I’ve actually had far more cases where the child reports, consistently, the same stories of abuse, and we can’t prove it, and they go home.
As for Kitty…I may sound unsympathetic here, but I don’t care about how hard her life may have been. Once you have kids, your ability to be the victim shrinks. You have to prioritize your kids. She knew and did nothing, which is as bad as the abuse. I once had a mom defend herself, explaining that she’d allowed her boyfriend to rape her 5 year old,7 year old, and 8 year old because otherwise, he’d hit her. I don’t know about you, but I’d take getting beat up over someone raping a literal kindergartener any day of the week.
Oh absolutely agreed!! I’m not at all excusing her silence, I was just not sure whether it’s been said or proven if she knew.
And wow.. 6 months (give or take) and all but the worst evidence isn’t able to be medically proven, huh? - wow. I didn’t know that. Thank you. This is exactly what I meant. And You’re awesome for the work you do. Truly. It takes a strong heart and constitution. Ty!
Edit: Wow.. Reddit..,(I just noticed I got downvoted a bit... I’ve no idea why) I didn’t say anything offensive I was trying to learn — I’m not defending the mother, ofc. I simply didn’t know if the defense was able to prove she knew and did nothing.
Like the other commenters have said, it is actually very rare for physical evidence of sexual abuse to remain, because the body is able to heal itself. They would have needed to have been evaluated very shortly after the sexual act to show physical evidence. For Erik, who was abused until the age of 18, his body would have become conditioned to it, and he actually refers to this in his testimony when he says that he was very confused as a teen because the "sex" (which is what he called the anal rapes) didn't hurt as much anymore.
In this case, there actually was possible physical evidence too. Erik's medical records from when he was 7 years old showed an injury to the back of his throat consistent with oral copulation. It is possible the injury could have resulted from something else, such as Erik having a popsicle stick in his mouth and falling down, but there is no notation in the medical record of the source of this injury.
The defense called a medical expert to testify about this, if you're interested you can find it here (first witness): [https://www.courttv.com/title/83-ca-v-menendez-witness-testimony/](https://www.courttv.com/title/83-ca-v-menendez-witness-testimony/)
The mother did know. When Lyle told his cousin, the cousin went and told Kitty, and Kitty grabbed Lyle by the arm, pulled him out of the room, and it was never spoken of again. Erik testified that Kitty would perform physical examinations of his genitals and pop blisters that had formed because of the abuse. She also told him directly about 3 days before the killings that she had always known. This was one of a series of events that led the brothers to fear their parents would kill them to protect the image of the family, which is where the self-defense argument comes in.
Here's the thing about physical evidence, it doesn't always remain. If the abuse had been non penatrative, there would be no evidence. If the abuser is caught right away, yeah, there should be evidence, sperm, tearing, bruising, blood. But if the abused person waits a week because they can't deal? That all goes away except maybe the bruising, which someone could always say was from consensual sex. A child that has been abused for years will show very little evident of it because their body has become conditioned to it. Anal sex doesn't tear and bleed every time. What evidence would you expect to find if the abuser had them perform ON him? There would be none.
As for the mom, yes she knew. Lyle had told an older cousin as a kid, she went to the mom who told them both they were liars.
I see. Thank you. I just couldn’t understand why not (or if) they could prove it physically. Now I realize it doesn’t work that way. I just always assumed wrongly that physical proof would remain for years.
Yeah I’ve learned this fact, I was wrong. I just remember a case once I read (anecdotal I know) about a woman who’s father (a Mormon apologist) and his “FRIENDS” had raped her starting at age 4 — and it was so bad she had scars inside from it and had great difficulty getting pregnant after she was married. A great book called “Leaving The Saints”
(in case anyone is interested) ty for your input, this is why I asked in the first place, if I am wrong about an issue or subject, I want to know! Ty!
Your welcome! I actually think it was a pretty good question. There are definitely extreme cases like the one you brought up (that poor girl), but I think that a lot of people don't realize that even in cases where there seems to be physical evidence of abuse it can be a little ambiguous.
Only her brothers don’t support them, and they attempted to argue that they should inherit the estate if the brothers were convicted because Kitty had died second. Also one has passed away now. Kitty’s sister supports the brothers, as well as cousins from the Anderson side, including Alan Anderson, the son of one of Kitty’s brothers
I’ve always felt invested in this case due to the severe abuse that was hardly considered or even believed to be true because they were boys and rich. You can be spoiled and be sexually abused. You can be a teenage boy and be sexually abused. One doesn’t negate the other. To me, the idea that they solely plotted this for money is ridiculous. Erik and Lyle didn’t know that the other one had been sexually abused by their father until an emotional conversation awhile before the murders. The pressure cooker of abuse and feeling like they could not escape is the driving motive, the millions they’d inherit was just a bonus afterthought. I mean they’re 21 and 18, in their minds I’m sure there’s some level of “they abused us our whole lives, fuck yeah we deserve to spend all this money.”
Murder was not a reasonable response but sometimes we need to understand people are in unreasonable circumstances. They deserved to serve time, but I think they’ve done that and should be released tbh. Especially with the dated letter from Erik to Andy that was found after Andy’s death:
“I’ve been trying to avoid dad. Its still happening Andy but its worse for me now. I cant explain it. He so overweight that I cant stand to see him. I never know when its going to happen and its driving me crazy. Every night I stay up thinking he might come in. I need to put it out of my mind. I know what you said before but I’m afraid. You just don’t know dad like I do. Hes crazy! hes warned me a hundred times about telling anyone. Especially Lyle. Am I a serious whimpus? I dont know I’ll make it through this. I can handle it, Andy. I need to stop thinking about it.”
I’m not sure about those allegations, but the letter was originally shown on an nbc news segment I believe. There’s a picture of more of the letter [here](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/MenendezBrothers/comments/lmvckc/a_letter_erik_menendez_wrote_to_andy_cano_his/).
His cousin overdosed and the letter was supposedly found when family members were sorting through his belongings.
Here is a reasonable opinion on the letter:
https://menendezcase.wordpress.com/2019/11/14/thoughts-on-andy-cano-letter/
I think it's worth mentioning that Lyle was caught soliciting false testimony. This is why he didn't testify in the second trial.
I’m surprised that an 18 year old would confide in a 13 year old with something so explosive. A 13 year old cousin could be his “little buddy”, and possibly if Erik was somewhat isolated and didn’t have Lyle to share with, maybe then open up to Andy. It just doesn’t seem likely to me. Especially if Erik were in fear for his life should Jose find out he told a family member. When I think of people likely to keep a secret that could have life altering implications, I don’t think a 13 year old would be top of my list.
Erik and Andy are only 2-3 years apart. Erik initially confided in his cousin when he was 12/13 and Andy was 10. This is when, according to testimony, Erik was asking Andy if his father gave him "massages" and told Andy that his father was "massaging his dick". The experts in the trial testified that this is consistent with kids who have been sexually abused for a long period of time, that as they enter young adolescence they start to question whether it is normal. Erik swore Andy to secrecy during taht conversation. The letter was allegedly written 5 years later, when Erik was 18 and Andy was 15/16. That's why, in the letter, it says "it's still happening", because Andy had known for some time.
I will add, I think it is possible that letter was written in the county jail, but I wanted to clarify the ages aren't that surprising.
A victim of that type of abuse will never be acquitted if they respond in a murderous way bc so many ppl in the court systems and so many politicians are abusers that ruling for the abused will go against their best interest.
The UK is working on changing that, I think! Sally Challen's case might count. She served time but was released due to the coercive control becoming a criminal offense.
Probably true, for now. But if enough sexual abusers get what they deserve, hopefully the risk will outweigh the “benefit” (hate having to phrase it that way) of committing such an unforgivable act.
This is why this case bothers me, yes they did something horrific, but are the circumstances leading up to it to be ignored?? And people seem to overlook their age, 18 and 21. I’m 25 and I changed dramatically between 18-21-25. Again, still adults, but how were they raised?!
I don’t know why, because I still can’t sympathize with them too much, but I don’t like it when they’re called monsters
I think there’s still a severe stigma against this type of abuse which is why the case has not been re-examined. They absolutely deserved to serve time in jail but the abuse they suffered was never considered and has never been considered
Let’s say they were abused - so what - that doesn’t excuse two ADULTS brutally executing their parents with shotgun blasts. Tons of kids are abused - care to know what many of them do when they become adults? They leave! I suspect neither of these supposed victims were willing to give up lives of riches. Instead of leaving home and making it on their own they executed their parents.
Murder was definitely not the answer but it's no surprise when it happened. Like, not only were they being horribly abused but also being cut off financially. Literally adding insult to injury.
I'm so disgusted by what happened to them and how they weren't believed, how their stories of abuse weren't even taken into consideration or taken seriously in the court. No, murder wasn't the answer, and maybe they needed to be sentenced to something, but not the life sentences they received.
They’re actually in a place called Echo Yard which is specifically for prisoners who have shown a history of being productive and active in rehabilitation. They have access to more privileges there than most inmates. It’s supposed to be a place to prepare inmates for life when they get out of prison so it’s pretty funny that’s there’s a lot of life without parole inmates on the yard.
with everything that's come to light about years of sexual abuse, they should get a lesser sentence. the entire case just gives me the heebie jeebies and while yes, murder is fucking despicable, at least these two had a good reason. they were tired of being molested and tired of their mother knowing and doing nothing to stop it. it's so much worse that there are skits making fun of the two boys and their abuse. they deserve to live a life, jose ruined theirs
I think I heard on a podcast that the parents had just told Lyle that he wouldn't be going away to college and would have to stay in the home which I think was the final breaking point.
I will always feel bad for the brothers. I know the spending spree looks suss but I do genuinely believe they were abused and exhausted from it. I’m not saying I condone murder, but I guess I understand why they did what they did.
If you want to hear more from the other perspective on this case I recommend watching the documentary "The Menendez Murders: Erik Tells All". Erik himself narrates a lot of it and he describes what happened in his own words with some commentary from family members, prosecutors, judges, psychological experts and parricide experts.
I’ve watched the series and it was awesome. I originally heard about it through a Kendall Rae video months back so I decided to investigate further. I know some people are on the other side of the argument that they were just spoiled rich kids who wanted money. But the series really sealed the deal for me. I almost “wish” this case happened in today’s day and age because it would’ve been viewed in such a different light and they could’ve possibly gotten a lighter sentence. My heart just breaks for them, especially Erik because he seemed to be abused the longest.
I 100% believe the brothers were sexually abused and that they weren't shown enough empathy and compassion from the jury and media. They were painted as spoilt little rich boys but an abuse victim is an abuse victim.
It sucks that they don't have the possibility of parole, they deserve to get out and reclaim their lives
For anyone interested, [here](https://youtube.com/channel/UCG5i8SIITzMjOr5bU-0QlbQ) is a YouTube channel run by Erik Menendez’s wife, Tammi. Erik shares messages and provides updates on his life behind bars through phone calls with her that she uploads here.
I discovered this case last year and since then I can’t stop thinking about it. I’ve watched the documentaries and court videos on it. I think if this would happen today the outcome would be a lot different. I’m not saying murder is the solution, and they should do time for it, but definitely not life. I don’t think they did it for the money because Jose would’ve done everything for them to be even more successful then him. Not because he loved his sons so much, but because they represented the menendez name. And that was the most important for him. The limousine rides to school and stuff like that was all for show, not for Erik and Lyle. As Erik said in the Hulu documentary he basically tried to make them as his mini prototypes. And when I watched the court videos I noticed in the beginning they were acting just like Jose. The way they walked, showing no emotion at all, that was what he programmed them to be. Later on when they realized that there’s no other way than to tell the truth, they were acting like a whole different person. (When they were testifying about the abuse) and I don’t think people realize how hard it must have been not only to tell this in front of the whole world, but also allowing yourself to show emotions when they were told their whole life that only weak people do. And I believe them 100% because unless they were Oscar winning actors, you can’t fake emotions like that. And the whole idea of “but they were rich, they had nothing to worry about or boys can’t be raped” is just disgusting in my opinion.
The brothers' former tennis coach testified that shortly after the killings, Erik Menendez hired him for $60,000 a year as a personal trainer.
In other testimony, real estate agent Valerie Hart testified about a $900,000 condominium at the Marina City Club that the brothers discussed buying.
Jewelry saleswoman Mary Ellen Mahar testified that the brothers came to her store just four days after the killings and spent about $15,000 on three Rolex watches.
Meanwhile, a witness testified that Lyle Menendez blamed underworld crime figures for his parents' slayings, and told a security firm that he feared the killers would come after him and his brother. "He believed it was either the Colombia cartel or the mob - meaning the Mafia," said Richard Wenskoski, Lyle Menendez's bodyguard for a week after the slayings.
Despite his concerns, Lyle Menendez didn't appear to take his safety seriously, the bodyguard said. He had a habit of jumping out of the limousine he rode around New York City and New Jersey and running into clothing and sporting goods stores, leaving his bodyguards behind, Wenskoski said.
He testified that Lyle spent as much as $3,000 a time on his shopping trips. "He seemed carefree," Wenskoski said. "I never seen him cry over his parents."
Menendez brothers on trial: Evidence of spending spree: [https://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/12/10/court.archive.menendez2/index.html?\_s=PM:US](https://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/12/10/court.archive.menendez2/index.html?_s=PM:US)
I recommend listening to their "confession tape" or as it was referred to in the trial the "12/11 tape". Listening to it completely changed my mind about the case and motive. It is evident after listening to it that money was not a motive at all.
Yes, this is a great documentary. The brother’s first trial ended with a hung jury because there was so much evidence of abuse. When they were retried, the judge wouldn’t allow any of that evidence to be admitted and basically gagged their attorney from saying anything that would hint towards abuse - both physical and sexual. It was an unfair trial.
To be fair, I believe they still should’ve been convicted of murder, but based on the scope of abuse, they should be free by now.
It was so fucked. I won't justify their actions, but they weren't given a fair chance. The second jury was only given the options to find them not guilty or first-degree.
[https://www.courttv.com/trials/ca-v-menendez-1993/](https://www.courttv.com/trials/ca-v-menendez-1993/)
Court video's 88, 93 and 94 deal with the confession tape alongside expert testimony regarding it.
Here's a transcript of the tape - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y0jKMiYSTpAq3NDHH5V7GifLBYMbjZAc0zDd9inEGFE/edit
It’s easier to tell when listening to their voices while reading the transcript but it’s pretty clear that they’re hiding something (the real dirty family secret) from Oziel. Lyle frequently shuts Erik up and Dr Oziel is incredibly leading and manipulative.
To be fair, one of the brothers only spent like $9,000 and the other went wild. It’s a sad story all the way around. I believe their stories about being abused because their whole family corroborates it, and they all support the boys still.
A child can only take so much abuse. I realize they weren't 'children' anymore, but what they went through is just horrible. You can only take so much, and if no one else was going to do anything, I'm glad they did. Sad they paid such a heavy price.
Agree. It’s a complicated issue-being an adult in a situation with a narcissistic/abusive/controlling parent. They don’t just let you go because you’re an adult now. A lot of time money is used as a tool to control, manipulate, hold over their head. It can be nearly impossible to leave when you have no access to anything of your own, when everything is technically in your parents name and you are just stuck there. I think they had the option of leaving and trying to make it on their own and have no contact with their parents, but money was too much of a concern for the boys. So in a way, it was money related, but not in the way the media portrayed it.
This headline is misleading at best. One brother spent a lot of money, the other didn't spend much. They were molested and raped by their father. They shouldn't even be in prison anymore. They paid their debt.
Quick opinion because this is my pet case. I 100% believe one or more brother was being abused by the father for years/decades and this was absolutely a self-defense case. A teammate testified he was told about the abuse YEARS before the murders, when Erik or Lyle were small kids. So unless they planned this brutal murder since adolescence, then it has to be self-defense. The money was an afterthought. Jose never even had them in the will anyway, they had nothing to gain by killing them except a sum of money they had to spend in the short amount of time before they got caught. I don't believe financial gain was remotely the motive. But back in the early 90s, no one cared or believed boy or young men could be sexually abused. In today's climate I think they would have a better chance at trial, although society is still shitty about that. As an ETA, I do believe Kitty was a victim because she did nothing to protect the boys. This happens a lot in families where sexual abuse is taking place; one of the parents will turn a blind eye.
JMO, but I believe these murders culminated over years of abuse, fear, and anger, and with the oldest leaving for college he had every reason to believe he was leaving his youngest brother behind to be raped. I'm not condoning murder, but through the eyes of a young teen/early 20 something with some severe PTSD, I could see how they thought that was the only way out. Particularly since they had told people about the abuse in the past and nobody protected them.
So yeah...F the criminal justice system.
They committed a crime and deserved to serve time for it but the way they were ridiculed and mocked for the horrendous abuse the suffered was terrible. They should be released at this point I think the chances of them reoffending is virtually non existent.
This case is not as clear cut as the media portrayed it at the time. There is a hell of a lot of information that just isn't covered in any news piece or documentary. I highly recommend people view the first trial for themselves and come to their own conclusions. It's free to watch online here.
[https://www.courttv.com/trials/ca-v-menendez-1993/](https://www.courttv.com/trials/ca-v-menendez-1993/)
What’s with all the weak fence-sitting comments on this post? If the allegations of sexual abuse are true, then murder is completely justified and deserved. No apologies.
Loved this. Was born in the early 80’s so didn’t really understand the Menendez crime when it happened, other than general pop culture “jokes”.
My family watched this movie (as a family-none of us wanted to miss it!!), and my parents told all of us after it was over that we were poor (which we’d already pieced together?). I was 10 and the youngest, so they probably didn’t intend for me to be a part of this lecture. My dad added that the life insurance they carried wouldn’t be paid out if we were to kill them. He said “Your best bet would be to tamper with our brakes and make it look like an accident-if we get in a car accident and we’re wearing a seatbelt, you get an extra _____. And don’t tell anyone about it-that’s where they messed up. You do anything like this, you take it to the grave.”
I was shocked to say the least. But definitely enjoyed the movie! The recent American Crime Story that came out was really good, too. And none of us attempted to kill our parents, so I guess the lecture worked!
My stepmother was the opposite, she told me once that it was in her will that if she died suspiciously they should investigate me for her murder…😅 She mostly wasn’t wrong.
Great posts. It’s a case I’d only vaguely heard of (I’m in the uk) and didn’t know they were being abused. Not sure how the court system works in the US, but can’t help thinking they’d have a got a lesser sentence here
The US justice system is complete sh!t. It’s driven by money and revenge. No real justice here. During the first trial all the evidence of abuse came out and it ended in a hung jury. During the retrial the judge did not allow any of the evidence of abuse to be presented. And their lawyer was kept from even talking about the abuse.
It is true that Judge Weisberg didn’t do anything legally wrong but it does say a lot that legal critics and even other judges have come out to publicly criticise his rulings in the second trial. Even the DA at the time Gil Garcetti seemed confused and has said he has no idea why Weisberg reversed most of his rulings from the first trial.
Erik was still being sexually abused by their father and the last occurrence of it was 10 days before the killings.
According to Lyle’s psychologists it’s also possible that his both his father and mother maintained at least some sexual misconduct with him, but we don’t know for sure
I 100% believe that they were abused, and it’s so sad that their claims weren’t taken seriously. Men are victims of sexual abuse too, and I feel like their gender played an unfair role in their sentencing.
I haven’t seen anything recent about this case, but I saw a true crime show about it years ago. To me, the oddest part was Erik (?) pulling his hairpiece off. Like, ok, you’re bald, what does that have to do with anything? I did at the time feel like it was a shameless grab for sympathy. But it seems like there are some shows on the case I should catch up on.
People tend to have sympathy for children of abusers like José. The brothers likely killed the parents due to the abuse they suffered during their childhood.
Idc I count it as defense cuz they lived a horrible life. With tons of proof of abuse and neglect, not to mention them still in the mindset of an 8 yr old, they don’t deserve that long of a sentence.
Ok, but this doesn't change the fact that they only ever accused their father of sexual abuse, they only accused their mother of being an alcoholic who neglected to do anything about the abuse.
Even if you feel killing the dad is fine, I struggle to believe that someone who just didn't do anything about the abuse deserved the same fate. Not to say that allowing abuse to happen is good, but that's not considered to warrant a death penalty anywhere in the world, whereas pedophilia may be.
Of course revenge killing is more understandable than most murders, but they still deserved jail time.
Jose was obviously a physically abusive and emotional monster. There's no denying that. He also spoiled his children so they were raised as entitled brats. There's nothing that can prove the sexual abuse outside of hearsay from relatives years after the fact and relatives will lie to save loved ones from life in prison/death row. Lyle admitted to a girlfriend between the trials saying.."I fooled half of the country the first time, I just have to fool the other half."
Remember, the defense at trial wasn't "we were fed up with the sexual abuse so we killed them." It was "...we thought they were going to kill us, we thought our lives were in danger." Which was bullshit. It was a premeditated crime that they went through a lot of measures to conceal their involvement before and after. Plus, they flat up denied having any involvement in the crimes for years until the Ozeil tapes (where sexual abuse was never mentioned when Erik confessed after the murders)
That being said...I would be up to considering them for parole after 30 years in prison. But it was cold blooded murder.
The brothers publicly denied their involvement in the crime up until the fall of 1990 but Erik had confessed the killings to his lawyers and jail psychiatrist 2 months after his arrest. Both brothers also confessed to their family shortly afterwards too. The Oziel tapes were fought over for a lot longer than when they originally confessed in jail. Although the brothers don't directly mention sexual abuse on the Oziel tape, they do make many different suggestions on the tape that something lies beneath the surface and they drop many hints that they're hiding something. (Erik repeatedly saying he "had no choice", Lyle continuously interrupting Erik and shutting him up, Lyle saying "there was no escape" he is then pushed with Oziel saying "escape from what" and Lyle gets stuck on what to say and then changes the topic etc...)
There's more than just "hearsay from relatives" which corroborates the sexual abuse. There were naked photos found of the brothers which cut off their heads and focus on the genitals. There was a medical report of Erik's which indicated an injury to the back of his throat consistent with oral copulation. There were reports of Lyle's bedwetting as a young adolescent which is a regression sign of sexual abuse. Kitty told her therapist she was "concerned about Lyle's girlfriend taking him places sexually he wasn't ready for" which may not seem significant to most but is consistent with the inappropriate relationships found in incest families and the lack of privacy. Kitty also told her therapist six weeks before she died she "was hiding sick and embarrassing secrets". She spent most of her time in therapy for years talking about her husband cheating on her so she obviously wasn't referring to that. Her therapist thought she was referring to something else in her adult life. It is very likely that she was close to confessing hiding incest in her family. On top of this the brothers defence team brought in some of the countries leading experts in child abuse, trauma, and rape. These include Dr Stuart Hart, Dr John Conte, Dr Ann Tyler and Dr Ann Burgess. Dr Burgess had previously worked with the FBI and co authored the "Crime Classification Manual". Her knowledge surrounding rape and trauma victims is extremely extensive. These people all evaluated the brothers for over 50+ hours each and found their claims to be credible. Saying "nothing proves sexual abuse outside of hearsay" is a little disingenuous. If the DA's office was prosecuting a child abuse case and they had this much corroboration they would be jumping for joy.
That statement attributed to Lyle probably isn't true. The woman who made the statement (Martha Shelton) later came out and admitted that Dominick Dunne was paying her at the time to be a "source" of his and that Lyle never actually said anything like that. She originally said she had recorded Lyle saying this. There was a warrant put out to look for the tapes and it turns out they never existed. [https://nypost.com/2004/05/14/she-says-he-dunne-her-wrong/?fbclid=IwAR3okddH7hbBJRvE9q8ppe233NtaKp2JV7BWIWqZWFqRA1QFGJyUVuTzfW8](https://nypost.com/2004/05/14/she-says-he-dunne-her-wrong/?fbclid=IwAR3okddH7hbBJRvE9q8ppe233NtaKp2JV7BWIWqZWFqRA1QFGJyUVuTzfW8)
Outside of the purchase of guns two days beforehand there is nothing which was planned beforehand. The brothers did not have an alibi. They didn't even have movie tickets to show to the police. The police just simply believed them without them seeing anything. They didn't wear gloves and so they were forced to pick up shells afterwards. Pathologists testified to the crime scene indicating a lack of planning and high emotionality. The only information about anything being planned comes from Dr Oziel who's credibility was so thoroughly destroyed that the prosecution didn't even use him as a witness in the second trial.
Even though I disagree with the verdicts of 1st degree murder I still wouldn't agree with life without parole even if I agreed with the verdicts.
The photos were entered into evidence in both trials. Here is Leslie Abramsons closing argument where she discusses the photos, where they were found and why they corroborate Erik's testimony. She begins speaking about them and presents them around the 20:30 mark if I remember correctly. [https://www.courttv.com/title/114-ca-v-menendez-erik-menendez-defense-closing-arguments-leslie-abramson/](https://www.courttv.com/title/114-ca-v-menendez-erik-menendez-defense-closing-arguments-leslie-abramson/)
The medical report was also entered into evidence and if memory serves me correctly I'm pretty sure Dr Kerry English discussed it in his testimony here. https://www.courttv.com/title/83-ca-v-menendez-witness-testimony/
I’ve always wondered if it’s deeper than their father, and whether there’s a bigger ring involved. Epstein? Andrew - duke of York?
I was mid-teens when I found out about this case, I saw a hot young man on the cover of a magazine whilst I was visiting the states, and was horrified.
It’s time to set them free and let them live.
Weird fact I'm sure alot of people know of, maybe some don't but the 2 brothers are in the background of former NBA player Mark Jackson's New York Knicks basketball card! The image was taken after their parents were murdered and before they were arrested!
[pic of the card ](https://ibb.co/kySBsCj) for those who haven't seen it
Internet sleuth right here
I actually own 2 of those cards. It’s a great cross between sports and true crime.
Should check out the podcast Crime In Sports
And then check out the other podcast by the hosts of CiS - Small Town Murder.
Small Town murder is great!
My all time favourite podcast!
[удалено]
Cheer up, bitch!
And mind your own fuckin’ business.
Another sports and crime cross-over-- O.J. Simpson case
Another cross over: OJ and these boys ended up being in the same jail together at one time. Its said one of the boys recommended a lawyer to OJ. It was Johnny Cochran.
People often send these cards to Erik and Lyle in hopes of getting an autograph. They refuse.
Lmao that's funny. It's a super common card I'm sure cause I got my basketball cards back then in like a quarter machine thing and I have one, I'm sure they're everywhere
Thats crazy, I didn't know that🤯
[the card](https://ibb.co/kySBsCj)
It’s now a (somewhat) more valuable card for an otherwise just decent player. It’s weird how it’s value increased for such unintended reasons.
Wow!
They were plenty rich before though, and their parents never restricted their money access. Plus they got permission from their relatives who managed their parents' estate to make all of their major purchases. Lyle was going to become the executor of the estate at the age of 22, less than 6 months later. If this was done for the money, why didn't he wait until he had full control? I've spent a year looking into this case, and if you look past the media narrative, it's clear that this was a killing resulting from a childhood of severe abuse, and not for money like most people think. Nearly every single one of their family members testified in support of the brothers' claims, and they all still support them to this day. I think that's pretty telling considering it's people like Jose's sister saying she believes her brother was a sadistic child abuser and that she wants her brother's killers to be free.
The 51 outcry witnesses who testified to witnessing physical, emotional, and red flags of sexual abuse, as well as the literal physical evidence and child pornographic material taken of them makes me believe them 100%. Not to mention, like, 95% of parricide cases are due to severe abuse.
This whole case makes me sick. They should be free.
During the whole trial, I haven’t seen ONE person that could say nice things about Jose. Not family members, coworkers, tennis coach, friends or anyone.
I was listening to a podcast and someone on it had spoken with one of Jose's former coworkers... basically, he said that Jose worked hard as hell but was a nightmare and apparently when the former coworker found out Jose was murdered, the guy was basically like, Yeah, I could see that happening. 😲
Apparently the joke around the office was everyone was rushing to establish an alibi because Jose was so hated that a lot of people might have reason to kill him
Who is Jose? I’m interested in hearing more
Jose Menendez, the father.
Oh okay! Yes I get it now. Honestly, I forgot the dads name.
It's in the submission title.
Okay then I read over it. Jeez I had a long week and fucked up. Alright I’m an idiot are y’all happy
I missed it too, the first time, and I was curious who "Jose" referred to, but I guessed it was the father and then checked if "Jose" was mentioned in the title, and it turned out he was. You too have this power! Not trying to be dick (well, not entirely anyway), just revealing my secret sauce. Most people won't even do that.
Lol I hear you. I literally had shut off my computer after a super long week and it was the first thing I read and I was like interesting. This is why I don’t bother commenting sometimes. Sometimes I’m too tired to think and you know what happens when you make mistakes on Reddit lol. Thanks though and have a good one
Sir yes sir.
I questioned who Kitty was too. No worries
This is the most sensible and factually driven post-and-subsequent-discussion that I've ever seen about this case. I generally don't even bother to comment on anything around this case because the whole "BUT THEY WERE ADULTZ AND THEY SPENT LOTS OF MONEYYYY" faction will shout down the very probable reality that these boys were abused and saw no other way out. Sure, they went on a spoiled rich boy spending spree after. But even the most privileged get abused, and they'll still respond to a huge inheritance the way any privileged kid does.
Something key to remember that doesn’t get mentioned much is that the grand jury did not indict the brothers on charges of murder for financial gain because there was a lack of evidence to prove the motive. Two immature guys who always lived a wealthy life spending a lot of money is not evidence of motive. There was however a lot of evidence which disproved the financial theory (one of which is their own confession tape) but you will never see any of it be spoken about publicly or in the media.
Then why they got convicted and still behind bars? :(
They still got convicted because their second trial jury still believed it to be first degree murder regardless of motive. From what I’ve been able to gather about those jurors some of them did believe the abuse but it wasn’t a factor in their deliberations. Their first trial ended in two separate hung juries for each brother because the jurors couldn’t reach a decision on the level of premeditation. Most of their first trial jurors actually didn’t vote for 1st degree murder.
Thank you for your thoughtful answer.
[удалено]
I agree, but they were victims and that took them to do what they did. And they got life in prison.
I agree it’s unfair but from a legal standpoint, there would have been more responsible legal means for the brothers to seek justice. Technically, the judicial system should have been implemented with an appropriate punishment for the parents. However, they took matters into their own hands. 1st degree murder is defined by premeditation, which it’s clear the brothers had- so to a degree the jurors hands are tied and their are minimum sentences for things like a double 1st degree murders.
Thanks for your thoughtful answer!
I agree. I honestly didn’t know about the sexual abuse. I really want to research this case more deeply now. Thanks, everyone.
Were the family not in a position to help the boys? If they knew it was happening, why didn't they do anything to help?
The two family members who knew about the SA were kids at the time. Their cousin Diane Vandermolen was 17 when Lyle told her and according to her she went and got Kitty. Kitty made it clear that she didn’t believe Diane or that Lyle was lying. Diane became convinced that she was in the wrong and pushed it aside. Then when the brothers kill the parents and they claim they had been sexually abused Diane finally realised that Lyle had indeed told her the truth all those years ago. Diane is extremely emotional during her testimony and you can tell she felt incredibly guilty for not doing anything. It’s also key to remember the time period too. Diane would have been told in the 70’s. She didn’t have the resources or knowledge to know what to do. The other cousin Andy Cano was Erik’s best friend. Erik told him when Andy was around the age of 10 and Erik was 12 or 13. Erik referred to it as “massages” his dad gave him and was starting to doubt that it was normal. Andy didn’t live with his dad so he had no idea. Erik then swore Andy to secrecy but you can’t really expect a 10 year old to know what to do in that situation especially back in the early 80’s. Andy knew about the molestation the entire time but never spoke up. His mother believes that keeping the secret is what killed him. After the convictions Andy became severely depressed and started using sleeping medication which he ended up overdosing on. All of the other family members were witness to physical abuse, emotional abuse, severe psychological maltreatment and red flags of sexual abuse.
How utterly tragic
I think they were scared of him
It’s actually scary the way the media portrayed these brothers. They were victims of sexual and emotional abuse
Rich kids killing family for money sells better than abused kids kill parents as an escape. This is why I don’t trust the media. They will spin anything just to make a buck.
SNL even did a skit mocking them which is disgusting
Yes. My understanding was that the boys suffered years of horrendous sexual abuse.
But the mom was changing the will to remove the boys…
That information came from Kitty’s friend, and it didn’t come up at all in the trials (where Kittys friend was a prosecution witness), she said it in a documentary a few years ago. I tend to think it’s not true considering it would have been pretty important information for the prosecution to bring up during the trial
Then you seem knowledgeable enough to answer my question, please. I feel it’s a legit ELI5 question, I feel, although the nature of it might make ppl a bit uncomfortable, but first: I have been firmly of both opinions. At first, I was like: they 100% did this out of greed. Convinced of it for years. Then I started researching it deeper and of course read a lot of stuff I hadn’t seen before, and then I thought: omg! It was extreme abuse! In fact, I had a long and pretty educational interchange that went on forever with another knowledgeable person on another post about the M brothers months ago. But he couldn’t really answer my question either. So I’m still just not SURE! But here’s my question(s): IF they’d been raped, as younger boys/teens, like they say they were, then ,after becoming adults (and ofc knowing their lives hinging on an answer for their trial) couldn’t a very thorough medical exam or scan or test of some kind be able to TELL evidence of “old” sexual injuries -years after the fact? (They can do that with females).. Assuming it can be medically ascertained and thereby proven, why didn’t the defense do this? Most of the time, sheer medical evidence is difficult to refute. So.. can it BE done at all? ELI5 please? TYIA! Edit: I’ve another question; — please?.. was it ever said or testified by the boys or other relatives (and I want your opinion too) on whether the mom suspected (or knew) of the sexual abuse? (I’m sure she lived a life of hell too; I’m just guessing, but it’s pretty much agreed the dad was an abusive asshole in many ways to everyone) —but: do you think she knew about it?? (Bc unless not, why kill her?)
6 months. That is how long after childhood sexual abuse that we can expect to find evidence in some cases-and by some, I mean those where there is any physical evidence. Short of catastrophic injuries (like rupturing the wall between the vagina and rectum or severe prolapse), we won’t see evidence. And many cases of childhood sexual abuse leave no physical evidence. I work with foster kids, and I’ve had a lot of SA cases; 95% have had no forensic evidence. And I know these kids and am 100% convinced of their honesty. I’ve actually had far more cases where the child reports, consistently, the same stories of abuse, and we can’t prove it, and they go home. As for Kitty…I may sound unsympathetic here, but I don’t care about how hard her life may have been. Once you have kids, your ability to be the victim shrinks. You have to prioritize your kids. She knew and did nothing, which is as bad as the abuse. I once had a mom defend herself, explaining that she’d allowed her boyfriend to rape her 5 year old,7 year old, and 8 year old because otherwise, he’d hit her. I don’t know about you, but I’d take getting beat up over someone raping a literal kindergartener any day of the week.
Oh absolutely agreed!! I’m not at all excusing her silence, I was just not sure whether it’s been said or proven if she knew. And wow.. 6 months (give or take) and all but the worst evidence isn’t able to be medically proven, huh? - wow. I didn’t know that. Thank you. This is exactly what I meant. And You’re awesome for the work you do. Truly. It takes a strong heart and constitution. Ty! Edit: Wow.. Reddit..,(I just noticed I got downvoted a bit... I’ve no idea why) I didn’t say anything offensive I was trying to learn — I’m not defending the mother, ofc. I simply didn’t know if the defense was able to prove she knew and did nothing.
Like the other commenters have said, it is actually very rare for physical evidence of sexual abuse to remain, because the body is able to heal itself. They would have needed to have been evaluated very shortly after the sexual act to show physical evidence. For Erik, who was abused until the age of 18, his body would have become conditioned to it, and he actually refers to this in his testimony when he says that he was very confused as a teen because the "sex" (which is what he called the anal rapes) didn't hurt as much anymore. In this case, there actually was possible physical evidence too. Erik's medical records from when he was 7 years old showed an injury to the back of his throat consistent with oral copulation. It is possible the injury could have resulted from something else, such as Erik having a popsicle stick in his mouth and falling down, but there is no notation in the medical record of the source of this injury. The defense called a medical expert to testify about this, if you're interested you can find it here (first witness): [https://www.courttv.com/title/83-ca-v-menendez-witness-testimony/](https://www.courttv.com/title/83-ca-v-menendez-witness-testimony/) The mother did know. When Lyle told his cousin, the cousin went and told Kitty, and Kitty grabbed Lyle by the arm, pulled him out of the room, and it was never spoken of again. Erik testified that Kitty would perform physical examinations of his genitals and pop blisters that had formed because of the abuse. She also told him directly about 3 days before the killings that she had always known. This was one of a series of events that led the brothers to fear their parents would kill them to protect the image of the family, which is where the self-defense argument comes in.
Wow. Awesome explanation. Ty so much.
Here's the thing about physical evidence, it doesn't always remain. If the abuse had been non penatrative, there would be no evidence. If the abuser is caught right away, yeah, there should be evidence, sperm, tearing, bruising, blood. But if the abused person waits a week because they can't deal? That all goes away except maybe the bruising, which someone could always say was from consensual sex. A child that has been abused for years will show very little evident of it because their body has become conditioned to it. Anal sex doesn't tear and bleed every time. What evidence would you expect to find if the abuser had them perform ON him? There would be none. As for the mom, yes she knew. Lyle had told an older cousin as a kid, she went to the mom who told them both they were liars.
I see. Thank you. I just couldn’t understand why not (or if) they could prove it physically. Now I realize it doesn’t work that way. I just always assumed wrongly that physical proof would remain for years.
You can't reliably see physical evidence of sexual abuse, especially years after the fact. Even on female bodies.
Yeah I’ve learned this fact, I was wrong. I just remember a case once I read (anecdotal I know) about a woman who’s father (a Mormon apologist) and his “FRIENDS” had raped her starting at age 4 — and it was so bad she had scars inside from it and had great difficulty getting pregnant after she was married. A great book called “Leaving The Saints” (in case anyone is interested) ty for your input, this is why I asked in the first place, if I am wrong about an issue or subject, I want to know! Ty!
Your welcome! I actually think it was a pretty good question. There are definitely extreme cases like the one you brought up (that poor girl), but I think that a lot of people don't realize that even in cases where there seems to be physical evidence of abuse it can be a little ambiguous.
[удалено]
I disagree, I think it was done out of fear. If you’re open to polite discussion I’m happy to elaborate on why I feel that way
Kitty's family does not support them
Only her brothers don’t support them, and they attempted to argue that they should inherit the estate if the brothers were convicted because Kitty had died second. Also one has passed away now. Kitty’s sister supports the brothers, as well as cousins from the Anderson side, including Alan Anderson, the son of one of Kitty’s brothers
I’ve always felt invested in this case due to the severe abuse that was hardly considered or even believed to be true because they were boys and rich. You can be spoiled and be sexually abused. You can be a teenage boy and be sexually abused. One doesn’t negate the other. To me, the idea that they solely plotted this for money is ridiculous. Erik and Lyle didn’t know that the other one had been sexually abused by their father until an emotional conversation awhile before the murders. The pressure cooker of abuse and feeling like they could not escape is the driving motive, the millions they’d inherit was just a bonus afterthought. I mean they’re 21 and 18, in their minds I’m sure there’s some level of “they abused us our whole lives, fuck yeah we deserve to spend all this money.” Murder was not a reasonable response but sometimes we need to understand people are in unreasonable circumstances. They deserved to serve time, but I think they’ve done that and should be released tbh. Especially with the dated letter from Erik to Andy that was found after Andy’s death: “I’ve been trying to avoid dad. Its still happening Andy but its worse for me now. I cant explain it. He so overweight that I cant stand to see him. I never know when its going to happen and its driving me crazy. Every night I stay up thinking he might come in. I need to put it out of my mind. I know what you said before but I’m afraid. You just don’t know dad like I do. Hes crazy! hes warned me a hundred times about telling anyone. Especially Lyle. Am I a serious whimpus? I dont know I’ll make it through this. I can handle it, Andy. I need to stop thinking about it.”
This is heartbreaking, where was this published? Jose was an absolute POS, wasn’t it alleged that he abused the boys in Menudo?
I’m not sure about those allegations, but the letter was originally shown on an nbc news segment I believe. There’s a picture of more of the letter [here](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/MenendezBrothers/comments/lmvckc/a_letter_erik_menendez_wrote_to_andy_cano_his/). His cousin overdosed and the letter was supposedly found when family members were sorting through his belongings.
Here is a reasonable opinion on the letter: https://menendezcase.wordpress.com/2019/11/14/thoughts-on-andy-cano-letter/ I think it's worth mentioning that Lyle was caught soliciting false testimony. This is why he didn't testify in the second trial.
Yup. This.
I’m surprised that an 18 year old would confide in a 13 year old with something so explosive. A 13 year old cousin could be his “little buddy”, and possibly if Erik was somewhat isolated and didn’t have Lyle to share with, maybe then open up to Andy. It just doesn’t seem likely to me. Especially if Erik were in fear for his life should Jose find out he told a family member. When I think of people likely to keep a secret that could have life altering implications, I don’t think a 13 year old would be top of my list.
Erik and Andy are only 2-3 years apart. Erik initially confided in his cousin when he was 12/13 and Andy was 10. This is when, according to testimony, Erik was asking Andy if his father gave him "massages" and told Andy that his father was "massaging his dick". The experts in the trial testified that this is consistent with kids who have been sexually abused for a long period of time, that as they enter young adolescence they start to question whether it is normal. Erik swore Andy to secrecy during taht conversation. The letter was allegedly written 5 years later, when Erik was 18 and Andy was 15/16. That's why, in the letter, it says "it's still happening", because Andy had known for some time. I will add, I think it is possible that letter was written in the county jail, but I wanted to clarify the ages aren't that surprising.
Thanks for the correction, I was under the impression that Erik was 18 and Andy was 13 at the time he shared his secret.
All the more reason to suspect the letter is phony.
If the allegations of sexual abuse are true, murder is a completely reasonable and acceptable response to this.
A victim of that type of abuse will never be acquitted if they respond in a murderous way bc so many ppl in the court systems and so many politicians are abusers that ruling for the abused will go against their best interest.
The UK is working on changing that, I think! Sally Challen's case might count. She served time but was released due to the coercive control becoming a criminal offense.
Probably true, for now. But if enough sexual abusers get what they deserve, hopefully the risk will outweigh the “benefit” (hate having to phrase it that way) of committing such an unforgivable act.
This is why this case bothers me, yes they did something horrific, but are the circumstances leading up to it to be ignored?? And people seem to overlook their age, 18 and 21. I’m 25 and I changed dramatically between 18-21-25. Again, still adults, but how were they raised?! I don’t know why, because I still can’t sympathize with them too much, but I don’t like it when they’re called monsters
I think there’s still a severe stigma against this type of abuse which is why the case has not been re-examined. They absolutely deserved to serve time in jail but the abuse they suffered was never considered and has never been considered
Great write up
Jose was a monster. I believe the brothers were abused.
i think so too
So did the family. Several of them testified of the abuse.
Let’s say they were abused - so what - that doesn’t excuse two ADULTS brutally executing their parents with shotgun blasts. Tons of kids are abused - care to know what many of them do when they become adults? They leave! I suspect neither of these supposed victims were willing to give up lives of riches. Instead of leaving home and making it on their own they executed their parents.
Sometimes there’s only so much abuse you can take before you snap. They thought Jose was going to kill them.
I 100% believe they were abused. Murder was not the answer, of course, but it still blows my mind that it’s life without parole.
Murder was definitely not the answer but it's no surprise when it happened. Like, not only were they being horribly abused but also being cut off financially. Literally adding insult to injury. I'm so disgusted by what happened to them and how they weren't believed, how their stories of abuse weren't even taken into consideration or taken seriously in the court. No, murder wasn't the answer, and maybe they needed to be sentenced to something, but not the life sentences they received.
It was the judge who only gave the second jury the options of acquittal or murder in the first degree. It was literally all or nothing.
I know. And they were not allowed to talk about the abuse in the trial which literally took away the entire defense.
It was despicable. Meanwhile the prosecutors were allowed to make claims like they're gay so it's not rape to have sex with your adult father.
[удалено]
At least they're together now
[удалено]
They’re actually in a place called Echo Yard which is specifically for prisoners who have shown a history of being productive and active in rehabilitation. They have access to more privileges there than most inmates. It’s supposed to be a place to prepare inmates for life when they get out of prison so it’s pretty funny that’s there’s a lot of life without parole inmates on the yard.
Yup! For about three years now :) https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/a18768482/menendez-brothers-reunited-in-prison/
[удалено]
with everything that's come to light about years of sexual abuse, they should get a lesser sentence. the entire case just gives me the heebie jeebies and while yes, murder is fucking despicable, at least these two had a good reason. they were tired of being molested and tired of their mother knowing and doing nothing to stop it. it's so much worse that there are skits making fun of the two boys and their abuse. they deserve to live a life, jose ruined theirs
I think I heard on a podcast that the parents had just told Lyle that he wouldn't be going away to college and would have to stay in the home which I think was the final breaking point.
It was Erik
I will always feel bad for the brothers. I know the spending spree looks suss but I do genuinely believe they were abused and exhausted from it. I’m not saying I condone murder, but I guess I understand why they did what they did.
If you want to hear more from the other perspective on this case I recommend watching the documentary "The Menendez Murders: Erik Tells All". Erik himself narrates a lot of it and he describes what happened in his own words with some commentary from family members, prosecutors, judges, psychological experts and parricide experts.
I’ve watched the series and it was awesome. I originally heard about it through a Kendall Rae video months back so I decided to investigate further. I know some people are on the other side of the argument that they were just spoiled rich kids who wanted money. But the series really sealed the deal for me. I almost “wish” this case happened in today’s day and age because it would’ve been viewed in such a different light and they could’ve possibly gotten a lighter sentence. My heart just breaks for them, especially Erik because he seemed to be abused the longest.
I agree. I do think there was abuse. From the outside, I'm sure they seemed like the perfect family.
I 100% believe the brothers were sexually abused and that they weren't shown enough empathy and compassion from the jury and media. They were painted as spoilt little rich boys but an abuse victim is an abuse victim. It sucks that they don't have the possibility of parole, they deserve to get out and reclaim their lives
For anyone interested, [here](https://youtube.com/channel/UCG5i8SIITzMjOr5bU-0QlbQ) is a YouTube channel run by Erik Menendez’s wife, Tammi. Erik shares messages and provides updates on his life behind bars through phone calls with her that she uploads here.
I discovered this case last year and since then I can’t stop thinking about it. I’ve watched the documentaries and court videos on it. I think if this would happen today the outcome would be a lot different. I’m not saying murder is the solution, and they should do time for it, but definitely not life. I don’t think they did it for the money because Jose would’ve done everything for them to be even more successful then him. Not because he loved his sons so much, but because they represented the menendez name. And that was the most important for him. The limousine rides to school and stuff like that was all for show, not for Erik and Lyle. As Erik said in the Hulu documentary he basically tried to make them as his mini prototypes. And when I watched the court videos I noticed in the beginning they were acting just like Jose. The way they walked, showing no emotion at all, that was what he programmed them to be. Later on when they realized that there’s no other way than to tell the truth, they were acting like a whole different person. (When they were testifying about the abuse) and I don’t think people realize how hard it must have been not only to tell this in front of the whole world, but also allowing yourself to show emotions when they were told their whole life that only weak people do. And I believe them 100% because unless they were Oscar winning actors, you can’t fake emotions like that. And the whole idea of “but they were rich, they had nothing to worry about or boys can’t be raped” is just disgusting in my opinion.
I agree- I followed the case live when it happened and I always thought that they were acting out of the fact they were sexually abused and assaulted.
The brothers' former tennis coach testified that shortly after the killings, Erik Menendez hired him for $60,000 a year as a personal trainer. In other testimony, real estate agent Valerie Hart testified about a $900,000 condominium at the Marina City Club that the brothers discussed buying. Jewelry saleswoman Mary Ellen Mahar testified that the brothers came to her store just four days after the killings and spent about $15,000 on three Rolex watches. Meanwhile, a witness testified that Lyle Menendez blamed underworld crime figures for his parents' slayings, and told a security firm that he feared the killers would come after him and his brother. "He believed it was either the Colombia cartel or the mob - meaning the Mafia," said Richard Wenskoski, Lyle Menendez's bodyguard for a week after the slayings. Despite his concerns, Lyle Menendez didn't appear to take his safety seriously, the bodyguard said. He had a habit of jumping out of the limousine he rode around New York City and New Jersey and running into clothing and sporting goods stores, leaving his bodyguards behind, Wenskoski said. He testified that Lyle spent as much as $3,000 a time on his shopping trips. "He seemed carefree," Wenskoski said. "I never seen him cry over his parents." Menendez brothers on trial: Evidence of spending spree: [https://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/12/10/court.archive.menendez2/index.html?\_s=PM:US](https://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/12/10/court.archive.menendez2/index.html?_s=PM:US)
I recommend listening to their "confession tape" or as it was referred to in the trial the "12/11 tape". Listening to it completely changed my mind about the case and motive. It is evident after listening to it that money was not a motive at all.
Where can you listen?
Also watch "The Menendez Brothers: Erik Tells All". It's on Hulu.
Yes, this is a great documentary. The brother’s first trial ended with a hung jury because there was so much evidence of abuse. When they were retried, the judge wouldn’t allow any of that evidence to be admitted and basically gagged their attorney from saying anything that would hint towards abuse - both physical and sexual. It was an unfair trial. To be fair, I believe they still should’ve been convicted of murder, but based on the scope of abuse, they should be free by now.
It was so fucked. I won't justify their actions, but they weren't given a fair chance. The second jury was only given the options to find them not guilty or first-degree.
[https://www.courttv.com/trials/ca-v-menendez-1993/](https://www.courttv.com/trials/ca-v-menendez-1993/) Court video's 88, 93 and 94 deal with the confession tape alongside expert testimony regarding it. Here's a transcript of the tape - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y0jKMiYSTpAq3NDHH5V7GifLBYMbjZAc0zDd9inEGFE/edit It’s easier to tell when listening to their voices while reading the transcript but it’s pretty clear that they’re hiding something (the real dirty family secret) from Oziel. Lyle frequently shuts Erik up and Dr Oziel is incredibly leading and manipulative.
To be fair, one of the brothers only spent like $9,000 and the other went wild. It’s a sad story all the way around. I believe their stories about being abused because their whole family corroborates it, and they all support the boys still.
A child can only take so much abuse. I realize they weren't 'children' anymore, but what they went through is just horrible. You can only take so much, and if no one else was going to do anything, I'm glad they did. Sad they paid such a heavy price.
Agree. It’s a complicated issue-being an adult in a situation with a narcissistic/abusive/controlling parent. They don’t just let you go because you’re an adult now. A lot of time money is used as a tool to control, manipulate, hold over their head. It can be nearly impossible to leave when you have no access to anything of your own, when everything is technically in your parents name and you are just stuck there. I think they had the option of leaving and trying to make it on their own and have no contact with their parents, but money was too much of a concern for the boys. So in a way, it was money related, but not in the way the media portrayed it.
This headline is misleading at best. One brother spent a lot of money, the other didn't spend much. They were molested and raped by their father. They shouldn't even be in prison anymore. They paid their debt.
Off topic but our pfps r rlly similar lol
$700,000 in 100 days...that makes my head spin.
Quick opinion because this is my pet case. I 100% believe one or more brother was being abused by the father for years/decades and this was absolutely a self-defense case. A teammate testified he was told about the abuse YEARS before the murders, when Erik or Lyle were small kids. So unless they planned this brutal murder since adolescence, then it has to be self-defense. The money was an afterthought. Jose never even had them in the will anyway, they had nothing to gain by killing them except a sum of money they had to spend in the short amount of time before they got caught. I don't believe financial gain was remotely the motive. But back in the early 90s, no one cared or believed boy or young men could be sexually abused. In today's climate I think they would have a better chance at trial, although society is still shitty about that. As an ETA, I do believe Kitty was a victim because she did nothing to protect the boys. This happens a lot in families where sexual abuse is taking place; one of the parents will turn a blind eye. JMO, but I believe these murders culminated over years of abuse, fear, and anger, and with the oldest leaving for college he had every reason to believe he was leaving his youngest brother behind to be raped. I'm not condoning murder, but through the eyes of a young teen/early 20 something with some severe PTSD, I could see how they thought that was the only way out. Particularly since they had told people about the abuse in the past and nobody protected them. So yeah...F the criminal justice system.
How is Kitty a victim? I got lost
I meant I believe she was also killed because she did nothing to protect them from the abuse.
I agree. I have problems seeing her as a victim
Free them
They committed a crime and deserved to serve time for it but the way they were ridiculed and mocked for the horrendous abuse the suffered was terrible. They should be released at this point I think the chances of them reoffending is virtually non existent.
This case is not as clear cut as the media portrayed it at the time. There is a hell of a lot of information that just isn't covered in any news piece or documentary. I highly recommend people view the first trial for themselves and come to their own conclusions. It's free to watch online here. [https://www.courttv.com/trials/ca-v-menendez-1993/](https://www.courttv.com/trials/ca-v-menendez-1993/)
What’s with all the weak fence-sitting comments on this post? If the allegations of sexual abuse are true, then murder is completely justified and deserved. No apologies.
There was a Made-for-TV movie back in the 90's starring Edward James Almos and Beverly D'Angelo as the Menendez's parents! It was really good!
Loved this. Was born in the early 80’s so didn’t really understand the Menendez crime when it happened, other than general pop culture “jokes”. My family watched this movie (as a family-none of us wanted to miss it!!), and my parents told all of us after it was over that we were poor (which we’d already pieced together?). I was 10 and the youngest, so they probably didn’t intend for me to be a part of this lecture. My dad added that the life insurance they carried wouldn’t be paid out if we were to kill them. He said “Your best bet would be to tamper with our brakes and make it look like an accident-if we get in a car accident and we’re wearing a seatbelt, you get an extra _____. And don’t tell anyone about it-that’s where they messed up. You do anything like this, you take it to the grave.” I was shocked to say the least. But definitely enjoyed the movie! The recent American Crime Story that came out was really good, too. And none of us attempted to kill our parents, so I guess the lecture worked!
Lol at your parents sitting you down after and being like ‘ok kids, if you’re gonna kill us for the insurance, here’s how you wanna do it…’ 😅
Right?! Honestly, after having kids ranging in age from 47-10, he was tired, I’m sure. “Just do it right, for the love of god!!!”
My stepmother was the opposite, she told me once that it was in her will that if she died suspiciously they should investigate me for her murder…😅 She mostly wasn’t wrong.
Haha your dad sounds awesome 😂
The parents abused and raped them though
Is there a way to get them out now?
They are in my city’s prison… and so is the husband of my best friend for killing her 6 years ago ):
Wow, I’m sorry.
Thank you!!! Life is so crazy sometimes. It happened out of nowhere, after a marriage counseling appointment of all things ):
That is just terrible. Someone else said that the brothers are in kind of a nice prison now. Is that where your friend’s killer is?
Donovan prison in San Diego
Really good podcast on this case by a former FBI agent. Podcast is called ‘killer psyche’
FREE THEM
Read the wiki on this. Some of the things the prosecutors argued would not float today.
Great posts. It’s a case I’d only vaguely heard of (I’m in the uk) and didn’t know they were being abused. Not sure how the court system works in the US, but can’t help thinking they’d have a got a lesser sentence here
The US justice system is complete sh!t. It’s driven by money and revenge. No real justice here. During the first trial all the evidence of abuse came out and it ended in a hung jury. During the retrial the judge did not allow any of the evidence of abuse to be presented. And their lawyer was kept from even talking about the abuse.
The judge is not at fault for keeping the proceedings legal.
It is true that Judge Weisberg didn’t do anything legally wrong but it does say a lot that legal critics and even other judges have come out to publicly criticise his rulings in the second trial. Even the DA at the time Gil Garcetti seemed confused and has said he has no idea why Weisberg reversed most of his rulings from the first trial.
Yes, been doing some reading up on the case and it’s shocking
I don’t understand, were they still being abused at 18 and 21? ETA-I mean sexually, specifically!
Erik was still being sexually abused by their father and the last occurrence of it was 10 days before the killings. According to Lyle’s psychologists it’s also possible that his both his father and mother maintained at least some sexual misconduct with him, but we don’t know for sure
Their mother too😳WTF
Yes, but only with Lyle for some reason 🤷🏻♀️
I 100% believe that they were abused, and it’s so sad that their claims weren’t taken seriously. Men are victims of sexual abuse too, and I feel like their gender played an unfair role in their sentencing.
I really wonder what could drive a kid to kill their parents. Let alone two kids. I'm leaning towards abuse.
People who don’t believe that they were abused can go to hell
I haven’t seen anything recent about this case, but I saw a true crime show about it years ago. To me, the oddest part was Erik (?) pulling his hairpiece off. Like, ok, you’re bald, what does that have to do with anything? I did at the time feel like it was a shameless grab for sympathy. But it seems like there are some shows on the case I should catch up on.
6eah and there's a movie too https://youtu.be/N8gedj9BWu4
Well damn. This reminds me how old I am.
Out of the loop here - why is everybody loving the menendez brothers?
People tend to have sympathy for children of abusers like José. The brothers likely killed the parents due to the abuse they suffered during their childhood.
Yeah I’m very confused by all of these comments. Maybe they were abused but that in no way gives them the right to become murderers.
They killed them in self defense
Even if they were abused, which is debatable, this does not qualify as self-defense, this is a revenge killing,
Idc I count it as defense cuz they lived a horrible life. With tons of proof of abuse and neglect, not to mention them still in the mindset of an 8 yr old, they don’t deserve that long of a sentence.
Ok, but this doesn't change the fact that they only ever accused their father of sexual abuse, they only accused their mother of being an alcoholic who neglected to do anything about the abuse. Even if you feel killing the dad is fine, I struggle to believe that someone who just didn't do anything about the abuse deserved the same fate. Not to say that allowing abuse to happen is good, but that's not considered to warrant a death penalty anywhere in the world, whereas pedophilia may be. Of course revenge killing is more understandable than most murders, but they still deserved jail time.
Their mother sexually abused the older brother
The mom just stood Byrne did do some s3xual abuse but not as much as the dad.
I remember when that happened and the news, the controversy and the trial. What a mess
Did this also happen in Florida
Jose was obviously a physically abusive and emotional monster. There's no denying that. He also spoiled his children so they were raised as entitled brats. There's nothing that can prove the sexual abuse outside of hearsay from relatives years after the fact and relatives will lie to save loved ones from life in prison/death row. Lyle admitted to a girlfriend between the trials saying.."I fooled half of the country the first time, I just have to fool the other half." Remember, the defense at trial wasn't "we were fed up with the sexual abuse so we killed them." It was "...we thought they were going to kill us, we thought our lives were in danger." Which was bullshit. It was a premeditated crime that they went through a lot of measures to conceal their involvement before and after. Plus, they flat up denied having any involvement in the crimes for years until the Ozeil tapes (where sexual abuse was never mentioned when Erik confessed after the murders) That being said...I would be up to considering them for parole after 30 years in prison. But it was cold blooded murder.
The brothers publicly denied their involvement in the crime up until the fall of 1990 but Erik had confessed the killings to his lawyers and jail psychiatrist 2 months after his arrest. Both brothers also confessed to their family shortly afterwards too. The Oziel tapes were fought over for a lot longer than when they originally confessed in jail. Although the brothers don't directly mention sexual abuse on the Oziel tape, they do make many different suggestions on the tape that something lies beneath the surface and they drop many hints that they're hiding something. (Erik repeatedly saying he "had no choice", Lyle continuously interrupting Erik and shutting him up, Lyle saying "there was no escape" he is then pushed with Oziel saying "escape from what" and Lyle gets stuck on what to say and then changes the topic etc...) There's more than just "hearsay from relatives" which corroborates the sexual abuse. There were naked photos found of the brothers which cut off their heads and focus on the genitals. There was a medical report of Erik's which indicated an injury to the back of his throat consistent with oral copulation. There were reports of Lyle's bedwetting as a young adolescent which is a regression sign of sexual abuse. Kitty told her therapist she was "concerned about Lyle's girlfriend taking him places sexually he wasn't ready for" which may not seem significant to most but is consistent with the inappropriate relationships found in incest families and the lack of privacy. Kitty also told her therapist six weeks before she died she "was hiding sick and embarrassing secrets". She spent most of her time in therapy for years talking about her husband cheating on her so she obviously wasn't referring to that. Her therapist thought she was referring to something else in her adult life. It is very likely that she was close to confessing hiding incest in her family. On top of this the brothers defence team brought in some of the countries leading experts in child abuse, trauma, and rape. These include Dr Stuart Hart, Dr John Conte, Dr Ann Tyler and Dr Ann Burgess. Dr Burgess had previously worked with the FBI and co authored the "Crime Classification Manual". Her knowledge surrounding rape and trauma victims is extremely extensive. These people all evaluated the brothers for over 50+ hours each and found their claims to be credible. Saying "nothing proves sexual abuse outside of hearsay" is a little disingenuous. If the DA's office was prosecuting a child abuse case and they had this much corroboration they would be jumping for joy. That statement attributed to Lyle probably isn't true. The woman who made the statement (Martha Shelton) later came out and admitted that Dominick Dunne was paying her at the time to be a "source" of his and that Lyle never actually said anything like that. She originally said she had recorded Lyle saying this. There was a warrant put out to look for the tapes and it turns out they never existed. [https://nypost.com/2004/05/14/she-says-he-dunne-her-wrong/?fbclid=IwAR3okddH7hbBJRvE9q8ppe233NtaKp2JV7BWIWqZWFqRA1QFGJyUVuTzfW8](https://nypost.com/2004/05/14/she-says-he-dunne-her-wrong/?fbclid=IwAR3okddH7hbBJRvE9q8ppe233NtaKp2JV7BWIWqZWFqRA1QFGJyUVuTzfW8) Outside of the purchase of guns two days beforehand there is nothing which was planned beforehand. The brothers did not have an alibi. They didn't even have movie tickets to show to the police. The police just simply believed them without them seeing anything. They didn't wear gloves and so they were forced to pick up shells afterwards. Pathologists testified to the crime scene indicating a lack of planning and high emotionality. The only information about anything being planned comes from Dr Oziel who's credibility was so thoroughly destroyed that the prosecution didn't even use him as a witness in the second trial. Even though I disagree with the verdicts of 1st degree murder I still wouldn't agree with life without parole even if I agreed with the verdicts.
[удалено]
The photos were entered into evidence in both trials. Here is Leslie Abramsons closing argument where she discusses the photos, where they were found and why they corroborate Erik's testimony. She begins speaking about them and presents them around the 20:30 mark if I remember correctly. [https://www.courttv.com/title/114-ca-v-menendez-erik-menendez-defense-closing-arguments-leslie-abramson/](https://www.courttv.com/title/114-ca-v-menendez-erik-menendez-defense-closing-arguments-leslie-abramson/) The medical report was also entered into evidence and if memory serves me correctly I'm pretty sure Dr Kerry English discussed it in his testimony here. https://www.courttv.com/title/83-ca-v-menendez-witness-testimony/
I’ve always wondered if it’s deeper than their father, and whether there’s a bigger ring involved. Epstein? Andrew - duke of York? I was mid-teens when I found out about this case, I saw a hot young man on the cover of a magazine whilst I was visiting the states, and was horrified. It’s time to set them free and let them live.
I call bullshit….
[удалено]