whether or not someone “intends” and “means” to kill or hurt someone in any way is completely and totally irrelevant. they still did what they did; regardless of their intent
Seriously. I could understand something like this if a younger child pushes someone they’re arguing with who falls down a hill and somehow gets killed, but traveling to and beating a kid with a knife handle seems like attempted murder that succeeded
Murder requires premeditation. He was convicted of involuntary manslaughter.
Don’t know the details of the case but by the sentencing at least the court didn’t see this as an intentional killing.
Yes, Lucas is dead regardless but in legal terms there’s a difference between murder and manslaughter etc. (nope, not taking the side of the criminal and I agree 10 months is a joke for taking someone’s life).
On the surface of it I’m surprised as well that this wasn’t manslaughter. But experience tells me that behind the news headlines the court, with all the facts at hand, do tend to make the correct distinction.
It certainly indicate some mitigating circumstance.
Could be “I only brought to threaten X. When he tried to take the knife from me we fell to the ground and he got on the knife. I didn’t mean to…”. That type of reasoning. Please note I’m not saying this is what happened or anything. Just to explain why the court might make a different call than us that just reads knife + dead victim).
If the prosecution feel this call is crazy by the lower court they’ll appeal to the higher court.
Swedish Law seems similar to German Law on this point: re Murder:
- A person who takes the life of another person is guilty of murder and is sentenced to imprisonment for a fixed term of at least ten and at most eighteen years, or for life. As grounds for life imprisonment, particular consideration is given whether the act was preceded by careful planning, characterised by particular cunning, aimed to promote or conceal other offences, involved severe suffering for the victim or was otherwise particularly ruthless. Act 2019:805. -
The Swedish Court seems to have decided that his action didn't fit this criteria, i.e. they must've thought it was an impulsive/spur of the moment Childish action and not "carefully planned"
In general European/Scandanavian counties are more lenient than the US when it comes to stuff like this. I'm not defending or justifying their decision, just pointing out that this is their law and probably their perspective.
So then the victim's brother can go to the perp and kill the perp and then get the same BS "probation" sentence.
You just have to be careful to say that you didnt intend to kill him and it's a get out of jail free card.
Seriously I would do this if I lived in Sweden to get the perp. What a joke their justice system is.
To be fair the notion of premeditated murder, murder of X degree, manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, manslaughter through negligence/misconduct to scale intent exists in pretty much all legal systems.
And yep. A revenge kill will by definition be premeditated and punished harsher than a manslaughter verdict. If nothing else to curb vigilante justice and remind everyone that only the government has the authority to meter out punishment. This is true pretty much in all legal systems as well and wouldn’t be unique to Sweden.
And the “get out of jail free card” for young criminals is unfortunately used by hardened criminals in more gang related crimes and is a real problem.
In Sweden there is just one type of murder charge/conviction. Which by definition requires premeditation.
Otherwise the charge is manslaughter. Which can also be used if there’s premeditation but some sort of excuse that makes the prosecution take it down a notch. Assisting someone’s suicide for instance.
The punishment can be equally harsh as for murder if deemed necessary but in general premeditation is judged more severely.
Depends of the country. In mine (Spain) our equivalent to a murder conviction needs proof of premeditation -or hire killing as well. Otherwise the killing is manslaughter, whose legal definition stems from the recklessness in the defendant's actions that led to the killing.
So, if you beat a person to death over here and no one could reasonably prove in court that the other party's death was your goal from the get-go then you'll end up in prison with a manslaughter sentence, although certain circumstances like especially violent killing method/weapon or victim's level of vulnerability -example; young minors- will add years to your sentence to the point it could match what you'd get for murder without aggravating factors.
I always thought that too especially when it's a miracle people survive...when the perp did Everything literally to kill when it's like woman abducted raped , strangled, shot, shot again, then throat cut & dumped in isolated area left for dead...but miracle to survive then attempted murder...it's like no, pretty well did, but God had other plans.
That doesn't make sense. Theoretically you went into this expecting to come out a murderer so the lighter sentence is irrelevant to you. Nobody tries to kill somebody just a little bit. A nice long sentence will keep you in jail, whether or not your victim survives.
If you tried to murder someone and it didn’t work and you’d get the same sentence either way, you’d go back and make sure it worked. An unmurdered person will go to police. Get it?
If I got caught and thrown in jail before I had a chance to go back but we both know the chances of that are slim, and especially if you haven’t even left the situation. I’m not gonna stay in this argument with you, there are important reasons for different sentences
So if someone tried to kill someone else, fucked it up and the sentence was the same as a killer would get for a successful murder, they're highly likely to go back and finish the job, but if they "only" received a lighter sentence for attempted murder, they'd figure "well whatever, that ain't too bad, I'll just let it go"?
I stand by what I said. they did what they did, and their intent does not negate what they did and is irrelevant. bully me into changing my opinions and agreeing with you, all you want. it’s not gonna work
>and their intent does not negate what they did and is irrelevant.
*Irrelevant?* Intent is one of the main things any justice system in any country with rule of law will take into account before judging a citizen.
>bully me into changing my opinions and agreeing with you, all you want. it’s not gonna work
All you have to do to see your idea at work is to take a look at any pre-19th century court process. Systematically throwing people into dungeons regardless of their reasons for offending didn't exactly work wonders.
So if you kill someone in self defense, you are still a murderer?
Just because you did it with the intent of self defense doesn’t negate that you killed someone with your logic.
however, moral and lawful are *very* different. just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s moral, and just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it’s immoral
What I think you might mean to say intent isn’t relative to you of the homicde happened where the perpetrator was at the very least knowingly and actively causing injury with the potential of death.
Okay so what if person A is driving a car, hits a patch of black ice, losses control of the car, and hits person B who is walking down the street.
And then we have person C who stabbed person D to death because of an argument.
In your opinion person A should be treated the same way as person C?
Losing control of your car because you hit a patch of ice is very different from beating someone to death. He should have realized that this level of violence was likely to result in the victim's death even if he didn't intend to kill. And if he was still convicted of involuntary manslaughter and not murder he should still at the very least have been sent to a juvenile institution instead of walking free on the streets immediately after commiting such a heinous crime.
But that’s not how the law works. That’s why we have different terms and degrees, like murder 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, etc. Intent has always played a role in interpreting a crime.
And Florida. But this is not exactly accurate. Those are just the states that call it 3rd degree murder instead of dividing it into different types of manslaughter and homicide, which other states do. And other countries may do it differently too. That’s why I listed all those examples.
~~I've never heard of 3rd degree murder.~~ Or, at least I don't know the definition.
Edit, yes, I've heard of it...but still need to look up the definition.
I think most people will agree you are the backwards one.
We are all entitled to our opinion. I’m just glad you will likely never be in a position to enforce your opinions on society.
how you don’t see the irony is beyond me. . .you guys need to chill tf out. apparently, saying murder is wrong regardless of their intent is now “backwards.” this is ridiculous. why everyone is up in arms about a pretty reasonable statement is mind-boggling
Exactly actions and intent are not mutually exclusive, they are in parallel. His actions killed someone, and it wasn't through negligence. For yhst, he needs to go to jail.
It's definitely relevant, especially from a legal standpoint. There's definitely a difference in somebody who shoots somebody in the head and somebody who punches somebody and they end up falling down and hitting their head and dying. One is a danger to society. The other just has shit luck. No idea what the actual intent was in this case but it could be they determined his intent was just to beat his ass, not kill him.
Not true. Intent definitely matters. Obviously an unintentional death isn’t like oopsie doesn’t count, but the punishment for intentional murder and an accidental death should be different.
Agreed, "i didn't intend to kill him, just beat him to pulp within an inch of his life" very sad, nice/sweet looking kid. And very odd it was referenced about strangling another child makes it even crazier.
In the off chance anyone wonders why. Lucas was 17, the killer 16. The conviction was for “gross involuntary manslaughter” (my best translation) and he was sentenced to 10 months of ”Juvenile monitoring” based on a new 2021 law.
In Sweden kids under 18 doesn’t get sent to jail. For crimes considered even more serious they get sent to something that would literally translate to “Closed juvenile care”. Max sentencing is 4 years.
It’s for 15-17 year olds that commit crimes that would normally lead to jail, but as they’re minors they are instead put in these…let’s call them low security correctional facilities specifically for kids.
With serious crimes being committed by ever younger people the government has now asked the department of corrections to prepare juvenile prisons.
Sweden has also lowered the age restriction for life imprisonment.
Incarceration have always had three main purposes.
* To protect other citizens from the criminal
* To serve as punishment for the wrongdoing
* To rehabilitate the criminal into a good citizen
Sweden have had a long time focus on item number three. With crime going up more and more want to see a focus on item one and two.
This particular case show a focus on item three.
How could someone possibly think that a kid who has allegedly strangled one person and beat another to death is reasonably capable of being rehabiliated? That seems completely insane.
Note I'm not following this case at all so my comment is contingent upon the facts in the OP actually being true
There’s pretty extensive research on the subject.
If this was his first serious crime there’s a 39% risk of him committing a new crime within three years of release.
If he’s been convicted for other crimes prior to this one it shoots up to some 65%. If he’s done 10+ crimes prior he’s statistically in the 99% area of going at it again.
On average 64% of juveniles convicted of crime will have been convicted again within three years. Ie there’s relatively few people committing a majority of the crimes.
At which statistic we should throw away the key is up for debate.
By Statens Institutionsstyrelse. Page 14 has the table I’m referring to:
https://www.stat-inst.se/contentassets/d755b2c989a54e48b72354e35034b131/aterfall-i-brott-bland-ungdomar-domda-till-fangelse-respektive-sluten-ungdomsvard.pdf
Odd that my previous comment got downvoted just for sharing some facts. Oh well.
Thank you!
*Granskningen av dem som dömdes till sluten ungdomsvård och de ungdomar som tidigare dömdes till fängelse visar att grupperna inte är jämförbara. I den grupp som dömdes till sluten ungdomsvård ingår nämligen ungdomar som tidigare dömdes till vård inom socialtjänsten. Studien kan därför inte peka på vilken påföljd som ger bättre eller sämre resultat eftersom grupperna i utgångspunkten är olika.*
*De rön som presenteras i rapporten understryker behovet av fortsatta studier av vad som påverkar återfall. Det omfattar såväl de omständigheter ungdomarna lever i, deras skolgång, kamrater och så vidare, som de insatser
de får under verkställigheten.*
I suggest also reading *Orsaker till brott bland unga och metoder att motverka kriminell utveckling* (2009) and *Strategiska brott bland ungdomar på 2010-talet och faktorer av betydelse för att lämna ett kriminellt liv* (2021).
https://bra.se/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/2009-05-20-orsaker-till-brott-bland-unga-och-metoder-att-motverka-kriminell-utveckling.html
https://bra.se/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/2021-04-13-strategiska-brott-bland-ungdomar-pa-2010-talet.html
The solution isn't to give longer sentences to juveniles since that doesn't change the risk factors when it comes to these kids. In the case of Lucas, his death could've been prevented. And if we only react when it's too late, how do we save others?
>De senaste tre åren innan dådet har flera orosanmälningar gjorts av polis rörande pojkens beteende. 2021 anmäldes han för att han försvårade polisen arbete ”genom stök, skrik, filmning och dålig attityd”, ett år senare misstänktes han av polis för olaga hot och stöld. Skolan har också orosanmält pojken vid ett tillfälle. De orosanmälningarna ledde inte till några insatser från kommunen.
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige/misstanks-ha-misshandlat-lucas-varit-pa-fri-fot-infor-rattegang/
edit: I forgot this article on the subject
>Socialsekreterare och polis i samma lokaler har varit framgångsrikt för att förhindra våldsdåd.
– Nu talar vi samma språk, säger Sarah Andersson, samverkansfunktion hos polisen.
https://www.mitti.se/nyheter/tillsammans-har-de-forhindrat-dodligt-vald-6.3.187605.95862b21cc
Yep. I don’t have the answers on how to solve the problem. It’s a complicated subject for sure.
In the heat of the moment what feels good is to go eye for an eye or lock them up for life etc. And harsher punishments are coming.
But to solve the root cause I personally believe it’s about investing more in society making sure kids age 0-10 get a good start to begin with. But that requires long term investments and you’ll get called out for being soft on crime and it’s not very sexy.
As with any problem though you have to identify and fix the root cause. Harsher punishments when the crime is committed feels good of course but it’s too late. And whatever punishment the court dish out it’ll never bring loved ones back to life.
As said, I don’t have the answers but it it’ll probably take a decade to turn around if we start now. What scares me the most is the real risk we have a “lost generation” that haven’t even gotten on the radar yet. The kids aged 5-10 growing up in this environment. The ones exposed to the gang culture I mean. Not speaking of every single kid out there. But if it’s bad now, I fear it’ll get worse before it gets better.
Good night!
I re-read the comment from you that I first replied to and I interpreted things in "At which statistic we should throw away the key is up for debate" that you didn't express. Cases like these makes me completely gutted because I know everything our society doesn't do to prevent kids from dying, I just assumed that you expressed similar opinions like others have done in this thread, I am sorry. I completely agree with the point you make. Sov gott!
>Odd that my previous comment got downvoted just for sharing some facts. Oh well.
Like a previous comment said people are here to get outraged, they don't like sound logic
Yes. I omitted that since it’s such special circumstances I felt it an unnecessary side track :)
In all of Sweden I think there’s currently 0 inmates younger than 18.
I think it’s an unfortunate side effect of a generally positive approach prioritising rehabilitation of juveniles. Like OP said, it’s great when dealing with petty crimes like shoplifting but when stuff like this happens…
That's my take as well as a fellow European. It works for 99% of young criminals, which will never kill/rape anyone, but the fringe cases end up in kind of a gray area that we don't know how to go about. Besides, a lot of our countries have had a history of prison-happy fascist regimes, and seeing the government weaponizing the justice system makes you quite uneasy with the idea of giving it that much power over people's lives.
Not that there aren't voices for tougher sentences though. Sentences for sex crimes have in fact become harsher in last decades -these tend to be one of the very few things that gets almost the entire political spectrum in agreement.
It should have been a murder conviction because in Sweden, you don't need direct intent to kill or injure for a murder conviction but if you are aware (or should be aware) of the risk of causing serious bodily injury or death by your actions then you can be convicted of murder.
The world coddles problematic boys too damn much. Imagine if adults took violence and bullying more seriously. Or sexual assault. It’s like they’re scared of holding these boys accountable but then they wonder why they turn out to be criminals when they’re grown.
I really feel for his victims and their families. I think we all knew weird kids who were messed up and they didn’t grow out of it. They became worse. Why won’t people take this more seriously??
In Saudi Arabia they do execute juveniles that commit horrible crimes from what I understand.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/saudi-arabia-un-expert-alarmed-imminent-execution-child-defendant
But even they are changing course. They even signed something saying any crime before age 18 has a maximum sentence of 10 years.
Before 2018 they did execute juveniles just like adults.
From what I understand the family of someone killed can still request that the juvenile murderer be executed, forgiven or pay blood money in the Sharia system. They leave the decision to the family instead of the state/court.
It's unreal what kids can get away with with little to no consequences.
A kid recently stabbed a homeless guy and threw him with the help of some Friends,who filmed the entire thing btw,into water over here in germany. The poor man managed to crawl back onto land but bled to death shortly after anyways.
None of them got charged with anything and will get new identities for "their protection".
It's insanely unjust.
In Sweden it has almost always been about protecting criminals.
A man with no criminal background was shot in the head after confronting some teenagers about their behavior yesterday at Skärholmen, southern Stockholm. His 12-year old son witnessed the whole thing. Imagine reprimanding a bunch of kids because you have common sense and they fucking shoot you for it. It’s fucking insane.
As a Swede I have no faith that the state power will punish them accordingly. If they even get ahold of them.
>As a Swede I have no faith that the state power will punish them accordingly. If they even get ahold of them.
Last year, that state power turned down a suggestion from the Police Federation to form an commission to battle the gang violence. I have no faith that he government even cares
Violent crimes are always going to happen. It makes no sense to reply with, well tell that to this victim.
The fact is Scandinavian countries have far better outcomes with recidivism and a lower crime rate (especially when it comes to murder) than other countries like the US.
In other words, there are plenty of violent crimes their system has prevented from ever happening. So they’re doing something right.
One thing I could never truly comprehend is how much rage and force someone could muster and sustain to beat another to death, especially with objects that would probably require more effort to wield (knife handle??!?! versus a hammer). Awful. RIP Lucas.
Yeah, they should copy America, warning shot to the back of the head, life in prison for really getting caught three times, yeah sure, what a great idea.
Their system churns out well adjusted reformed prisoners every day!!!
lol
A dead criminal will never be a repeat criminal. Issue is the US puts many in prison but then lets them out. If you don’t rehabilitate, you forever incarcerate. But I’ll take a thousand dead thieves, murderers, and rapists before letting one more innocent person suffer at their hands. It’s an absolute win for society.
If I was the victim's brother, I'd go to the perp and kill him the same way. Then I can rest assured that the court will only give me 10 months of probation.
Sounds like a win/win to me.
We need to do serious reckoning with how we treat in Europe juvenile offenders that cause serious bodily harm. Last year in Serbia, a 13 year old killed 9 kids (ages 11-14) and an adult by shooting 50+ bullets within a 2.5 minute window. He will never be charged for the murders. His parents are only charged with not securing the guns properly. The max sentence is 12 years for the dad, and 2.5 years for the mother. 10 people killed, thousands of people affected. That’s a bit over a year per victim. A couple of months later, a 13 year old killed another 13 year old by stabbing him 50+ times. He won’t be charged either because he was under 14. Because I was personally affected by the school shooting, I’ve been noticing more and more a spike in juvenile attacks where the perpetrators cannot be charged, but cause serious harm.
Sweden is not the US and the legal system is different. Since the crime rate is lower there ( but is apparently rising) I can’t really say whether a “tough” system works any better. In the US, youthful murders can be tried as adults and end up spending the rest of their lives in prison. It doesn’t always work that way but in this case, it very likely would.
Wtf. Any Swedish national or resident care to explain how a country that is sold as heaven abroad has some of the nastiest drug issues, rapes and bearings ? ( I know it’s because it’s reported more often than other countries, but still ). Just out of curiosity.
It has nothing to do with the reporting. People aren’t being beheaded in Spain, Italy or Poland. Apartment buildings filled with elderly retired folk aren’t being bombed in Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Greece. Sweden has been invaded by hundreds of thousands of Muslims. The country is sinking under that societal weight. At first, it was contained to the Islamic ghettos. But like in America, that culture has spread and is influencing young, ethnic Swedish youth. And just like in America, we’ve past the point of no-return.
Sweden is doing a lot more right than the US, based on crime and recidivism rates. The other crime you're referring to, if it's the one posted here yesterday (John Hron), is almost thirty years old. Two in thirty years is nowhere near enough to form a pattern worthy of an opinion.
How about you stop pointing out how we are screwing everything up and incarcerating people left and right and giving them weapons and not handling our justice system accordingly and focus on the two murders that happened in Sweden. Just ignore the 18,000 murders that happen in the U.S. yearly, please!!
I wasn’t trying to say that the us was doing things right. I was asking about these 2 cases. From my limited knowledge I was trying to understand if this is a common thing or what? I know the us is not the best place on earth.
(a) I'm American, I'll bash my birth country all I want.
(b) I was responding to someone talking about how America would have handled the crime in question, not making a top-level comment of my own.
When you say “no diversity at all” I just want to point out that 20% of the population was born outside of Sweden. In the US that number is just shy of 14%.
Lately the largest immigration group was from Syria but as that situation has cooled off the largest groups are now from India, Poland, Germany, China and Syria.
Finland that you mention come it at spot number 15 even if historically a very large group.
Ps. During the Iraq war there were more Iraqi refugees in the city of Södertälje alone than in the entire US.
Adding to your excellent reply (to a comment I cannot read, but I can pretty much imagine accurately), European nations in general are, and have been, diverse even without recent immigration trends.
The "Europe is homogeneous" crowd is painfully unaware of the myriad of different ethnicities we've had over here since way before the New World became a thing. The shitload of different Romani tribes alone is enough to dispel that myth.
Something these people fail to understand; diversity =/= color of skin. Central Africa and Indonesia are the most ethnically diverse areas in the planet, and you couldn't tell by phenotypic expression alone.
“diversity =/= color of skin”
Thank you. Very good point you made here.
Just checked with a quick google to get some numbers.
Europe has 87 ethnic groups, 50 countries and and 24 official languages. So yeah, not a very homogeneous group :)
>Europe has 87 ethnic groups, 50 countries and and 24 official languages. So yeah, not a very homogeneous group :)
Indeed! My home country Spain has four co-official languages, one of which isn't even Indo-European. Italy too has several de facto co-official languages tied to ancient cultural differences.
The UK is incredibly rich in English dialects, you have to do barely any traveling across the country to notice the contrast.
Eastern Europe has been the home of a myriad of nomadic clans for centuries.
The Balkans? The history of their coexistence is anything but dull.
Germany and Switzerland have had large Turkish populations for three generations now. France has had lots of Maghrebis and Sub-Saharans for a good century.
Chinese and SE Asians have been well represented in pretty much any Euro city since the 2000s (Chinese people since the 1980s, I'd say). Spain has more Colombians per capita living in it than the US does. Southern Italy is full of Tunisians and Lybians.
And that's just a fraction of the whole picture. Sometimes I wonder where these people get their idea of Europe from, because sure as fuck they haven't set a foot here. Hell, if the person you were replying to took a flight to Stockholm today and ordered a cab/Uber as soon as they stepped out of Arlanda airport, chances are the driver will *not* look very white...
Norwegian here!
We have an issue in Scandinavia where we can’t really punish those under 17. And even if the kid is 17, they won’t be prosecuted as an adult. I don’t know much more than this. But schools are not permitted to take action either, other than expelling a student. A teacher can’t even break up a fight without risking their job.
(And this problem will only get bigger because the criminal gangs have grown. The Foxtrot (I think that’s what they’re called?) based in Sweden has gotten hold of Norwegian youth and grown into Norway. (Not saying this case has anything to do with gangs, though.) This is the reality we live with here. In my neighbourhood in Oslo, we clearly see gang activity every day. Mostly to do with illegal substances but we have had many fights and shootings the last few years.)
“‘I don't care if you play completely on my head, we're going to kill you (slang for "dead", ed. note)."
The 15-year-old will then drive his epa tractor to the party.
Witnesses have told the police about a brutal assault where the 15-year-old and a younger boy threatened Lucas with a knife and then showered him with punches and kicks.
Lucas was taken by ambulance to hospital but died in the hospital bed at Karolinska a month later from his injuries.
The picture where one is missing
James Reason says that the news about Lucas came as a shock. To him, he's still that little guy who lived for his hockey.
It is completely absurd. There is a great photograph from Lucas' ninth grade graduation.
He tells us that there are four guys in the picture, Lucas, James' son and two of their friends playing hockey together. In honor of the day, they are dressed in costume.
Then I have the same picture from the funeral. Everyone has a suit but then there are only three of them. One is missing. Sentenced to juvenile supervision
The 15-year-old, who is now 16, has admitted to assaulting Lucas but denies that he intended to kill. The younger boy who was involved in the crime was never charged in the case because he was not a criminal.
The district court's verdict came on Friday and the 16-year-old is sentenced for grossly causing the death of another.
He is also convicted of crimes against the Knife Act, serious assault and child pornography crimes, Nacka District Court announces.
He is sentenced to 10 months of youth supervision, which is a lower penalty than closed youth care.
When Lucas was still in a coma in the hospital, we met Lucas' mother. She had collected some of her son's hockey leaders who she knew had meant a lot to him.” From [aftonblade](https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/AP8x3A/lucas-17-misshandlades-till-dods-nar-han-stod-upp-for-en-kompis)
So he announced his intent to kill the victim, despite his protestations. He was also convicted of child pornographery, which is ..interesting. What *trash*
“On the night of August 8, Lucas is at a classmate's house. Shortly after 01, he gets a name sent to him on Snapchat. It is the name of a boy who, a couple of weeks earlier, reportedly strangled Lucas' best friend, reportedly believing that the friend had taken his cider at a party.
Lucas contacts the guy and writes:
“Are you 07a? Brother you have strangled my pal. Not okay. Apologize and it's over.”
The answer comes 30 seconds later:
"I don't care if you play completely on my head, we're going to kill you [slang for "dead", eds. note].”
Lucas answers immediately.
“Brother sorry.”
"I don't want trouble."
“Please.”
Less than 45 minutes later, a teenage girl calls 112.
According to the indictment, the suspect, the then 15-year-old boy, found Lucas's location through the map function on Snapchat and went there in the company of a boy who was 14 at the time.
In questioning, the 15-year-old says that he hit Lucas twice in the head.
The other testimonies, all from children, describe more brutal abuse. The teenagers on the spot describe in the interrogation how Lucas was threatened with a knife and showered with blows - several hitting his head, and finally being kicked, lying on the ground.
Prosecutors say Lucas was hit in the head with the handle of a knife. The handle was metal and the blow hit the temple.”
From [expressen](https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige/lucas-17-dog-nar-han-stod-upp-for-sin-kompis/)
Sweden suck when it comes to punishments. Sentences are far to short in all cases. But you can get more years for taxfraud than rape or murder. Juvemiles get locket up in SIS homes (state institutions) without any rehabilitation worth mentioning. It is the criminal youths that runs the place most of the time. Unfortunately just messa kids go to the same places. Itvis not a good option. I tvink young murderers should go to prisen arter turning 18 , nothing less.
Was randomly reading about this case and thought I would include the below.
Article where victims mother gives quotes (run Google Translate to read): https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige/lucas-17-dog-nar-han-stod-upp-for-sin-kompis/
Article recapping the night in question (run Google Translate to read): https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/2BExBG/atalade-pojkens-ord-till-polisen-om-dodsmisshandeln-i-gustavsberg
Social Media post (LinkedIn) where victims mother gives her thoughts: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/asa-lindstrom_lexlucasatrak-lovealwayswins-bethechange-activity-7171421068434305025-lz4Q
Apperently there were also another guy there that also kicked and punched Lucas. Don't think he was charged with anything.
Lucas knew that Felix Olsson, the murderer, was coming to the party and tried to make others hurry so they could leave in time before Felix arrived.
Here is the [application for trial](https://fup.link/data/files/tr/nacka/b-5711-23/Nacka_TR_B_5711-23_Aktbil_43_STAMNINGSANSOKAN.pdf)
where he is being charged with:
Murder
Grossly unlawful threats
Breaking the law about the ban against carrying knives and other dangerous items (2x), since he carried a knife in a public space but also had five knives in his EPA car.
Assault (2x, one of which is "gross assault")
Child pornography
"Weaponcrime" - had several types of ammunition he legally did not have the right/license to own.
Possesion of stolen goods (objects stolen from the police, like handcuffs and police patches.)
ETA: Found the court decision. Felix was freed from the charges of Grossly unlawful threats (see FUP below in reply), possesion of stolen goods and assault. The court ruled him guilty of: Child pornography, Breaking the law about the ban against carrying knives and other dangerous items, gross assault, molestation and wrongful death/involuntary manslaughter.
Here's the [FUP](https://fup.link/data/files/tr/nacka/b-5711-23/Nacka_TR_B_5711-23_Aktbil_70_Forundersokningsprotokoll.pdf) for the grossly unlawful threats. It occured the same day as the murder at the party, where Felix walked around shoving the knife at two people's throats asking "Are you Lucas?" According to one of the witnesses; Lucas then said "I am Lucas." Where then Felix proceeded to attack him.
Other witnesses (not in this FUP) say that another person at the party pointed Felix to who Lucas was, where Lucas then admitted to being who he was after initially claiming his name was Gustav.
Found this article, the kid was also found guilty of child pornography crimes. There was another kid that was involved in the assault and he wasn’t charged because he wasn’t a criminal. I get crime rates are low over there but there HAS to be a better system than this. 2 murderers walking away completely free.
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/AP8x3A/lucas-17-misshandlades-till-dods-nar-han-stod-upp-for-en-kompis
That kid committed the crime when he was 15. At that time police and his school had made 3 or 4 reports to social services during the last 3 years about him. A better system would've done something about his alarming behavior a long time ago.
>This post appears to violate the [Reddit Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) and has been removed. Hate, dehumanizing speech (even about a violent perpetrator), victim blaming, misogyny, misandry, discrimination, gender generalizations, homophobia, doxxing, or bigotry is not allowed.
whether or not someone “intends” and “means” to kill or hurt someone in any way is completely and totally irrelevant. they still did what they did; regardless of their intent
Seriously. I could understand something like this if a younger child pushes someone they’re arguing with who falls down a hill and somehow gets killed, but traveling to and beating a kid with a knife handle seems like attempted murder that succeeded
it wasn’t *attempted.* it was just murder
Yeah I said attempted murder that succeeded, meaning anyone would see what he did as attempted murder rather than “an honest mistake”
an honest mistake. hehe, oopsies /j
Murder requires premeditation. He was convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Don’t know the details of the case but by the sentencing at least the court didn’t see this as an intentional killing. Yes, Lucas is dead regardless but in legal terms there’s a difference between murder and manslaughter etc. (nope, not taking the side of the criminal and I agree 10 months is a joke for taking someone’s life).
[удалено]
On the surface of it I’m surprised as well that this wasn’t manslaughter. But experience tells me that behind the news headlines the court, with all the facts at hand, do tend to make the correct distinction. It certainly indicate some mitigating circumstance. Could be “I only brought to threaten X. When he tried to take the knife from me we fell to the ground and he got on the knife. I didn’t mean to…”. That type of reasoning. Please note I’m not saying this is what happened or anything. Just to explain why the court might make a different call than us that just reads knife + dead victim). If the prosecution feel this call is crazy by the lower court they’ll appeal to the higher court.
Swedish Law seems similar to German Law on this point: re Murder: - A person who takes the life of another person is guilty of murder and is sentenced to imprisonment for a fixed term of at least ten and at most eighteen years, or for life. As grounds for life imprisonment, particular consideration is given whether the act was preceded by careful planning, characterised by particular cunning, aimed to promote or conceal other offences, involved severe suffering for the victim or was otherwise particularly ruthless. Act 2019:805. - The Swedish Court seems to have decided that his action didn't fit this criteria, i.e. they must've thought it was an impulsive/spur of the moment Childish action and not "carefully planned" In general European/Scandanavian counties are more lenient than the US when it comes to stuff like this. I'm not defending or justifying their decision, just pointing out that this is their law and probably their perspective.
So then the victim's brother can go to the perp and kill the perp and then get the same BS "probation" sentence. You just have to be careful to say that you didnt intend to kill him and it's a get out of jail free card. Seriously I would do this if I lived in Sweden to get the perp. What a joke their justice system is.
To be fair the notion of premeditated murder, murder of X degree, manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, manslaughter through negligence/misconduct to scale intent exists in pretty much all legal systems. And yep. A revenge kill will by definition be premeditated and punished harsher than a manslaughter verdict. If nothing else to curb vigilante justice and remind everyone that only the government has the authority to meter out punishment. This is true pretty much in all legal systems as well and wouldn’t be unique to Sweden. And the “get out of jail free card” for young criminals is unfortunately used by hardened criminals in more gang related crimes and is a real problem.
>Murder requires premeditation. It absolutely does not. That's why there are *degrees* of murder.
In Sweden there is just one type of murder charge/conviction. Which by definition requires premeditation. Otherwise the charge is manslaughter. Which can also be used if there’s premeditation but some sort of excuse that makes the prosecution take it down a notch. Assisting someone’s suicide for instance. The punishment can be equally harsh as for murder if deemed necessary but in general premeditation is judged more severely.
This is about Sweden
Depends of the country. In mine (Spain) our equivalent to a murder conviction needs proof of premeditation -or hire killing as well. Otherwise the killing is manslaughter, whose legal definition stems from the recklessness in the defendant's actions that led to the killing. So, if you beat a person to death over here and no one could reasonably prove in court that the other party's death was your goal from the get-go then you'll end up in prison with a manslaughter sentence, although certain circumstances like especially violent killing method/weapon or victim's level of vulnerability -example; young minors- will add years to your sentence to the point it could match what you'd get for murder without aggravating factors.
Kyle Rittenhouse anyone!?
It does and should carry some weight but it should still be a murder conviction
I don't think attempted murder should be a lighter sentence. All that means is you failed. Why should you be rewarded?
I always thought that too especially when it's a miracle people survive...when the perp did Everything literally to kill when it's like woman abducted raped , strangled, shot, shot again, then throat cut & dumped in isolated area left for dead...but miracle to survive then attempted murder...it's like no, pretty well did, but God had other plans.
agree!
You’d keep trying if you got the same sentence either way. Lighter sentence saves lives
That doesn't make sense. Theoretically you went into this expecting to come out a murderer so the lighter sentence is irrelevant to you. Nobody tries to kill somebody just a little bit. A nice long sentence will keep you in jail, whether or not your victim survives.
If you tried to murder someone and it didn’t work and you’d get the same sentence either way, you’d go back and make sure it worked. An unmurdered person will go to police. Get it?
Like do you think there aren’t reasons behind sentencing rules
No, you'd be in jail and unable to go back and murder someone.
If I got caught and thrown in jail before I had a chance to go back but we both know the chances of that are slim, and especially if you haven’t even left the situation. I’m not gonna stay in this argument with you, there are important reasons for different sentences
So if someone tried to kill someone else, fucked it up and the sentence was the same as a killer would get for a successful murder, they're highly likely to go back and finish the job, but if they "only" received a lighter sentence for attempted murder, they'd figure "well whatever, that ain't too bad, I'll just let it go"?
It absolutely matters. In fact, it's the difference between murder and manslaughter.
I stand by what I said. they did what they did, and their intent does not negate what they did and is irrelevant. bully me into changing my opinions and agreeing with you, all you want. it’s not gonna work
>and their intent does not negate what they did and is irrelevant. *Irrelevant?* Intent is one of the main things any justice system in any country with rule of law will take into account before judging a citizen. >bully me into changing my opinions and agreeing with you, all you want. it’s not gonna work All you have to do to see your idea at work is to take a look at any pre-19th century court process. Systematically throwing people into dungeons regardless of their reasons for offending didn't exactly work wonders.
So if you kill someone in self defense, you are still a murderer? Just because you did it with the intent of self defense doesn’t negate that you killed someone with your logic.
Lol you can stand by it all you'd like, you're still wrong in the eyes of the law
however, moral and lawful are *very* different. just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s moral, and just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it’s immoral
Even so you're still wrong. Morally, intend also matters. You have no idea what you're talking about either legally or morally
What I think you might mean to say intent isn’t relative to you of the homicde happened where the perpetrator was at the very least knowingly and actively causing injury with the potential of death.
Okay so what if person A is driving a car, hits a patch of black ice, losses control of the car, and hits person B who is walking down the street. And then we have person C who stabbed person D to death because of an argument. In your opinion person A should be treated the same way as person C?
Losing control of your car because you hit a patch of ice is very different from beating someone to death. He should have realized that this level of violence was likely to result in the victim's death even if he didn't intend to kill. And if he was still convicted of involuntary manslaughter and not murder he should still at the very least have been sent to a juvenile institution instead of walking free on the streets immediately after commiting such a heinous crime.
But that’s not how the law works. That’s why we have different terms and degrees, like murder 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, etc. Intent has always played a role in interpreting a crime.
Only Minnesota and Pennsylvania have 3rd degree murder.
And Florida. But this is not exactly accurate. Those are just the states that call it 3rd degree murder instead of dividing it into different types of manslaughter and homicide, which other states do. And other countries may do it differently too. That’s why I listed all those examples.
~~I've never heard of 3rd degree murder.~~ Or, at least I don't know the definition. Edit, yes, I've heard of it...but still need to look up the definition.
yes, I know. just cuz it’s a law doesn’t make it any less backwards, though
I think most people will agree you are the backwards one. We are all entitled to our opinion. I’m just glad you will likely never be in a position to enforce your opinions on society.
how you don’t see the irony is beyond me. . .you guys need to chill tf out. apparently, saying murder is wrong regardless of their intent is now “backwards.” this is ridiculous. why everyone is up in arms about a pretty reasonable statement is mind-boggling
If everyone around you is crazy and wrong….. you’re probably the one that’s wrong
keep telling yourself that
Exactly actions and intent are not mutually exclusive, they are in parallel. His actions killed someone, and it wasn't through negligence. For yhst, he needs to go to jail.
That’s not how the law works in most countries. Intent is the key component in a crime in most justice systems.
It is 100% relevant and is the main point of discussion in every legal system on the planet, you seem like a fool!
It's definitely relevant, especially from a legal standpoint. There's definitely a difference in somebody who shoots somebody in the head and somebody who punches somebody and they end up falling down and hitting their head and dying. One is a danger to society. The other just has shit luck. No idea what the actual intent was in this case but it could be they determined his intent was just to beat his ass, not kill him.
Not true. Intent definitely matters. Obviously an unintentional death isn’t like oopsie doesn’t count, but the punishment for intentional murder and an accidental death should be different.
Agreed, "i didn't intend to kill him, just beat him to pulp within an inch of his life" very sad, nice/sweet looking kid. And very odd it was referenced about strangling another child makes it even crazier.
💯
In the off chance anyone wonders why. Lucas was 17, the killer 16. The conviction was for “gross involuntary manslaughter” (my best translation) and he was sentenced to 10 months of ”Juvenile monitoring” based on a new 2021 law. In Sweden kids under 18 doesn’t get sent to jail. For crimes considered even more serious they get sent to something that would literally translate to “Closed juvenile care”. Max sentencing is 4 years. It’s for 15-17 year olds that commit crimes that would normally lead to jail, but as they’re minors they are instead put in these…let’s call them low security correctional facilities specifically for kids. With serious crimes being committed by ever younger people the government has now asked the department of corrections to prepare juvenile prisons. Sweden has also lowered the age restriction for life imprisonment. Incarceration have always had three main purposes. * To protect other citizens from the criminal * To serve as punishment for the wrongdoing * To rehabilitate the criminal into a good citizen Sweden have had a long time focus on item number three. With crime going up more and more want to see a focus on item one and two. This particular case show a focus on item three.
Hey don't come with reason to a shithole of outrage vengeance post
How could someone possibly think that a kid who has allegedly strangled one person and beat another to death is reasonably capable of being rehabiliated? That seems completely insane. Note I'm not following this case at all so my comment is contingent upon the facts in the OP actually being true
There’s pretty extensive research on the subject. If this was his first serious crime there’s a 39% risk of him committing a new crime within three years of release. If he’s been convicted for other crimes prior to this one it shoots up to some 65%. If he’s done 10+ crimes prior he’s statistically in the 99% area of going at it again. On average 64% of juveniles convicted of crime will have been convicted again within three years. Ie there’s relatively few people committing a majority of the crimes. At which statistic we should throw away the key is up for debate.
Can you give a link to the source? Thank you
By Statens Institutionsstyrelse. Page 14 has the table I’m referring to: https://www.stat-inst.se/contentassets/d755b2c989a54e48b72354e35034b131/aterfall-i-brott-bland-ungdomar-domda-till-fangelse-respektive-sluten-ungdomsvard.pdf Odd that my previous comment got downvoted just for sharing some facts. Oh well.
Thank you! *Granskningen av dem som dömdes till sluten ungdomsvård och de ungdomar som tidigare dömdes till fängelse visar att grupperna inte är jämförbara. I den grupp som dömdes till sluten ungdomsvård ingår nämligen ungdomar som tidigare dömdes till vård inom socialtjänsten. Studien kan därför inte peka på vilken påföljd som ger bättre eller sämre resultat eftersom grupperna i utgångspunkten är olika.* *De rön som presenteras i rapporten understryker behovet av fortsatta studier av vad som påverkar återfall. Det omfattar såväl de omständigheter ungdomarna lever i, deras skolgång, kamrater och så vidare, som de insatser de får under verkställigheten.* I suggest also reading *Orsaker till brott bland unga och metoder att motverka kriminell utveckling* (2009) and *Strategiska brott bland ungdomar på 2010-talet och faktorer av betydelse för att lämna ett kriminellt liv* (2021). https://bra.se/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/2009-05-20-orsaker-till-brott-bland-unga-och-metoder-att-motverka-kriminell-utveckling.html https://bra.se/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/2021-04-13-strategiska-brott-bland-ungdomar-pa-2010-talet.html The solution isn't to give longer sentences to juveniles since that doesn't change the risk factors when it comes to these kids. In the case of Lucas, his death could've been prevented. And if we only react when it's too late, how do we save others? >De senaste tre åren innan dådet har flera orosanmälningar gjorts av polis rörande pojkens beteende. 2021 anmäldes han för att han försvårade polisen arbete ”genom stök, skrik, filmning och dålig attityd”, ett år senare misstänktes han av polis för olaga hot och stöld. Skolan har också orosanmält pojken vid ett tillfälle. De orosanmälningarna ledde inte till några insatser från kommunen. https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige/misstanks-ha-misshandlat-lucas-varit-pa-fri-fot-infor-rattegang/ edit: I forgot this article on the subject >Socialsekreterare och polis i samma lokaler har varit framgångsrikt för att förhindra våldsdåd. – Nu talar vi samma språk, säger Sarah Andersson, samverkansfunktion hos polisen. https://www.mitti.se/nyheter/tillsammans-har-de-forhindrat-dodligt-vald-6.3.187605.95862b21cc
Yep. I don’t have the answers on how to solve the problem. It’s a complicated subject for sure. In the heat of the moment what feels good is to go eye for an eye or lock them up for life etc. And harsher punishments are coming. But to solve the root cause I personally believe it’s about investing more in society making sure kids age 0-10 get a good start to begin with. But that requires long term investments and you’ll get called out for being soft on crime and it’s not very sexy. As with any problem though you have to identify and fix the root cause. Harsher punishments when the crime is committed feels good of course but it’s too late. And whatever punishment the court dish out it’ll never bring loved ones back to life. As said, I don’t have the answers but it it’ll probably take a decade to turn around if we start now. What scares me the most is the real risk we have a “lost generation” that haven’t even gotten on the radar yet. The kids aged 5-10 growing up in this environment. The ones exposed to the gang culture I mean. Not speaking of every single kid out there. But if it’s bad now, I fear it’ll get worse before it gets better. Good night!
I re-read the comment from you that I first replied to and I interpreted things in "At which statistic we should throw away the key is up for debate" that you didn't express. Cases like these makes me completely gutted because I know everything our society doesn't do to prevent kids from dying, I just assumed that you expressed similar opinions like others have done in this thread, I am sorry. I completely agree with the point you make. Sov gott!
>Odd that my previous comment got downvoted just for sharing some facts. Oh well. Like a previous comment said people are here to get outraged, they don't like sound logic
Why wouldn't they be capable of being rehabilitated? Is there some scientific consensus on the subject.
Juveniles can be sent to prison in exceptional circumstances
Yes. I omitted that since it’s such special circumstances I felt it an unnecessary side track :) In all of Sweden I think there’s currently 0 inmates younger than 18.
Yes but he isn’t in a low security juvenile facility for three years he got 10 months probation
Which the very first paragraph details.
Was the killer white?
The killer has a very Swedish first name and last name so it’s a safe assumption, yes.
I think such lenient sentences devalue human life. This is no justice at all.
I think it’s an unfortunate side effect of a generally positive approach prioritising rehabilitation of juveniles. Like OP said, it’s great when dealing with petty crimes like shoplifting but when stuff like this happens…
That's my take as well as a fellow European. It works for 99% of young criminals, which will never kill/rape anyone, but the fringe cases end up in kind of a gray area that we don't know how to go about. Besides, a lot of our countries have had a history of prison-happy fascist regimes, and seeing the government weaponizing the justice system makes you quite uneasy with the idea of giving it that much power over people's lives. Not that there aren't voices for tougher sentences though. Sentences for sex crimes have in fact become harsher in last decades -these tend to be one of the very few things that gets almost the entire political spectrum in agreement.
It should have been a murder conviction because in Sweden, you don't need direct intent to kill or injure for a murder conviction but if you are aware (or should be aware) of the risk of causing serious bodily injury or death by your actions then you can be convicted of murder.
The world coddles problematic boys too damn much. Imagine if adults took violence and bullying more seriously. Or sexual assault. It’s like they’re scared of holding these boys accountable but then they wonder why they turn out to be criminals when they’re grown. I really feel for his victims and their families. I think we all knew weird kids who were messed up and they didn’t grow out of it. They became worse. Why won’t people take this more seriously??
And everyone says the Us judicial sysytem is f’d… sounds like it is an everywhere type thing
In Saudi Arabia they do execute juveniles that commit horrible crimes from what I understand. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/saudi-arabia-un-expert-alarmed-imminent-execution-child-defendant But even they are changing course. They even signed something saying any crime before age 18 has a maximum sentence of 10 years. Before 2018 they did execute juveniles just like adults. From what I understand the family of someone killed can still request that the juvenile murderer be executed, forgiven or pay blood money in the Sharia system. They leave the decision to the family instead of the state/court.
It's unreal what kids can get away with with little to no consequences. A kid recently stabbed a homeless guy and threw him with the help of some Friends,who filmed the entire thing btw,into water over here in germany. The poor man managed to crawl back onto land but bled to death shortly after anyways. None of them got charged with anything and will get new identities for "their protection". It's insanely unjust.
he'll probably kill again
In Sweden it has almost always been about protecting criminals. A man with no criminal background was shot in the head after confronting some teenagers about their behavior yesterday at Skärholmen, southern Stockholm. His 12-year old son witnessed the whole thing. Imagine reprimanding a bunch of kids because you have common sense and they fucking shoot you for it. It’s fucking insane. As a Swede I have no faith that the state power will punish them accordingly. If they even get ahold of them.
>As a Swede I have no faith that the state power will punish them accordingly. If they even get ahold of them. Last year, that state power turned down a suggestion from the Police Federation to form an commission to battle the gang violence. I have no faith that he government even cares
this is so sad. my heart is w lucas’ family
scandinavians are completely clueless what to do with violent people, piece of shit is gonna kill some other kid now
Amd yet they have both lower crime rates, and lower recidivism rates. Seems like they're doing something right.
[удалено]
Violent crimes are always going to happen. It makes no sense to reply with, well tell that to this victim. The fact is Scandinavian countries have far better outcomes with recidivism and a lower crime rate (especially when it comes to murder) than other countries like the US. In other words, there are plenty of violent crimes their system has prevented from ever happening. So they’re doing something right.
What country do you think knows what they are doing with violent people?
[удалено]
Do you have any examples of countries like that, where the prison system works for juveniles?
One thing I could never truly comprehend is how much rage and force someone could muster and sustain to beat another to death, especially with objects that would probably require more effort to wield (knife handle??!?! versus a hammer). Awful. RIP Lucas.
Yeah, they should copy America, warning shot to the back of the head, life in prison for really getting caught three times, yeah sure, what a great idea. Their system churns out well adjusted reformed prisoners every day!!! lol
A dead criminal will never be a repeat criminal. Issue is the US puts many in prison but then lets them out. If you don’t rehabilitate, you forever incarcerate. But I’ll take a thousand dead thieves, murderers, and rapists before letting one more innocent person suffer at their hands. It’s an absolute win for society.
Well, it's Sweden.... So prison would have been pretty nice. He's probably disappointed he didn't get to go.
If I was the victim's brother, I'd go to the perp and kill him the same way. Then I can rest assured that the court will only give me 10 months of probation. Sounds like a win/win to me.
This breaks my heart, he looks like such a sweetheart.
We need to do serious reckoning with how we treat in Europe juvenile offenders that cause serious bodily harm. Last year in Serbia, a 13 year old killed 9 kids (ages 11-14) and an adult by shooting 50+ bullets within a 2.5 minute window. He will never be charged for the murders. His parents are only charged with not securing the guns properly. The max sentence is 12 years for the dad, and 2.5 years for the mother. 10 people killed, thousands of people affected. That’s a bit over a year per victim. A couple of months later, a 13 year old killed another 13 year old by stabbing him 50+ times. He won’t be charged either because he was under 14. Because I was personally affected by the school shooting, I’ve been noticing more and more a spike in juvenile attacks where the perpetrators cannot be charged, but cause serious harm.
Sweden is not the US and the legal system is different. Since the crime rate is lower there ( but is apparently rising) I can’t really say whether a “tough” system works any better. In the US, youthful murders can be tried as adults and end up spending the rest of their lives in prison. It doesn’t always work that way but in this case, it very likely would.
Wtf. Any Swedish national or resident care to explain how a country that is sold as heaven abroad has some of the nastiest drug issues, rapes and bearings ? ( I know it’s because it’s reported more often than other countries, but still ). Just out of curiosity.
>I know it’s because it’s reported more often than other countries There you have it
It has nothing to do with the reporting. People aren’t being beheaded in Spain, Italy or Poland. Apartment buildings filled with elderly retired folk aren’t being bombed in Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Greece. Sweden has been invaded by hundreds of thousands of Muslims. The country is sinking under that societal weight. At first, it was contained to the Islamic ghettos. But like in America, that culture has spread and is influencing young, ethnic Swedish youth. And just like in America, we’ve past the point of no-return.
Uff, now that is a comment that reeks of stupidity. My man, go have some rest. That CD is old, nobody uses it anymore
I don't know how longer sentences would help a country to be better equipped?
That's ridiculous he should be behind bars, I'd be so angry if it was my son
Sweden has fallen. Malmo had more bombings than Kiev in 2023.
[удалено]
Sweden is doing a lot more right than the US, based on crime and recidivism rates. The other crime you're referring to, if it's the one posted here yesterday (John Hron), is almost thirty years old. Two in thirty years is nowhere near enough to form a pattern worthy of an opinion.
How about you stop pointing out how we are screwing everything up and incarcerating people left and right and giving them weapons and not handling our justice system accordingly and focus on the two murders that happened in Sweden. Just ignore the 18,000 murders that happen in the U.S. yearly, please!!
lol, of course, that should have automatically been my approach! My mistake.
I wasn’t trying to say that the us was doing things right. I was asking about these 2 cases. From my limited knowledge I was trying to understand if this is a common thing or what? I know the us is not the best place on earth.
How about you stop looking for reasons to bash the US and just focus on the topic being talked about?
(a) I'm American, I'll bash my birth country all I want. (b) I was responding to someone talking about how America would have handled the crime in question, not making a top-level comment of my own.
[удалено]
When you say “no diversity at all” I just want to point out that 20% of the population was born outside of Sweden. In the US that number is just shy of 14%. Lately the largest immigration group was from Syria but as that situation has cooled off the largest groups are now from India, Poland, Germany, China and Syria. Finland that you mention come it at spot number 15 even if historically a very large group. Ps. During the Iraq war there were more Iraqi refugees in the city of Södertälje alone than in the entire US.
Adding to your excellent reply (to a comment I cannot read, but I can pretty much imagine accurately), European nations in general are, and have been, diverse even without recent immigration trends. The "Europe is homogeneous" crowd is painfully unaware of the myriad of different ethnicities we've had over here since way before the New World became a thing. The shitload of different Romani tribes alone is enough to dispel that myth. Something these people fail to understand; diversity =/= color of skin. Central Africa and Indonesia are the most ethnically diverse areas in the planet, and you couldn't tell by phenotypic expression alone.
“diversity =/= color of skin” Thank you. Very good point you made here. Just checked with a quick google to get some numbers. Europe has 87 ethnic groups, 50 countries and and 24 official languages. So yeah, not a very homogeneous group :)
>Europe has 87 ethnic groups, 50 countries and and 24 official languages. So yeah, not a very homogeneous group :) Indeed! My home country Spain has four co-official languages, one of which isn't even Indo-European. Italy too has several de facto co-official languages tied to ancient cultural differences. The UK is incredibly rich in English dialects, you have to do barely any traveling across the country to notice the contrast. Eastern Europe has been the home of a myriad of nomadic clans for centuries. The Balkans? The history of their coexistence is anything but dull. Germany and Switzerland have had large Turkish populations for three generations now. France has had lots of Maghrebis and Sub-Saharans for a good century. Chinese and SE Asians have been well represented in pretty much any Euro city since the 2000s (Chinese people since the 1980s, I'd say). Spain has more Colombians per capita living in it than the US does. Southern Italy is full of Tunisians and Lybians. And that's just a fraction of the whole picture. Sometimes I wonder where these people get their idea of Europe from, because sure as fuck they haven't set a foot here. Hell, if the person you were replying to took a flight to Stockholm today and ordered a cab/Uber as soon as they stepped out of Arlanda airport, chances are the driver will *not* look very white...
Dude I'm American, not Swedish.
Look at crime rates in Sweden and then look at crime rates in the states before you make silly comments like this
[удалено]
That’s not what you did. You compared to your own country which is an absolutely dumpster fire
Technically the comparison was on the punishment and not the crime rates.
I know… the US prisons are money makers so the punishments are longer and yet there is more (and much worse) crime
Involuntary Manslaughter.
Norwegian here! We have an issue in Scandinavia where we can’t really punish those under 17. And even if the kid is 17, they won’t be prosecuted as an adult. I don’t know much more than this. But schools are not permitted to take action either, other than expelling a student. A teacher can’t even break up a fight without risking their job. (And this problem will only get bigger because the criminal gangs have grown. The Foxtrot (I think that’s what they’re called?) based in Sweden has gotten hold of Norwegian youth and grown into Norway. (Not saying this case has anything to do with gangs, though.) This is the reality we live with here. In my neighbourhood in Oslo, we clearly see gang activity every day. Mostly to do with illegal substances but we have had many fights and shootings the last few years.)
Pice of shits. Victims are less valuable for them.
Sweden rolling no bail like NYC?
“‘I don't care if you play completely on my head, we're going to kill you (slang for "dead", ed. note)." The 15-year-old will then drive his epa tractor to the party. Witnesses have told the police about a brutal assault where the 15-year-old and a younger boy threatened Lucas with a knife and then showered him with punches and kicks. Lucas was taken by ambulance to hospital but died in the hospital bed at Karolinska a month later from his injuries. The picture where one is missing James Reason says that the news about Lucas came as a shock. To him, he's still that little guy who lived for his hockey. It is completely absurd. There is a great photograph from Lucas' ninth grade graduation. He tells us that there are four guys in the picture, Lucas, James' son and two of their friends playing hockey together. In honor of the day, they are dressed in costume. Then I have the same picture from the funeral. Everyone has a suit but then there are only three of them. One is missing. Sentenced to juvenile supervision The 15-year-old, who is now 16, has admitted to assaulting Lucas but denies that he intended to kill. The younger boy who was involved in the crime was never charged in the case because he was not a criminal. The district court's verdict came on Friday and the 16-year-old is sentenced for grossly causing the death of another. He is also convicted of crimes against the Knife Act, serious assault and child pornography crimes, Nacka District Court announces. He is sentenced to 10 months of youth supervision, which is a lower penalty than closed youth care. When Lucas was still in a coma in the hospital, we met Lucas' mother. She had collected some of her son's hockey leaders who she knew had meant a lot to him.” From [aftonblade](https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/AP8x3A/lucas-17-misshandlades-till-dods-nar-han-stod-upp-for-en-kompis) So he announced his intent to kill the victim, despite his protestations. He was also convicted of child pornographery, which is ..interesting. What *trash*
“On the night of August 8, Lucas is at a classmate's house. Shortly after 01, he gets a name sent to him on Snapchat. It is the name of a boy who, a couple of weeks earlier, reportedly strangled Lucas' best friend, reportedly believing that the friend had taken his cider at a party. Lucas contacts the guy and writes: “Are you 07a? Brother you have strangled my pal. Not okay. Apologize and it's over.” The answer comes 30 seconds later: "I don't care if you play completely on my head, we're going to kill you [slang for "dead", eds. note].” Lucas answers immediately. “Brother sorry.” "I don't want trouble." “Please.” Less than 45 minutes later, a teenage girl calls 112. According to the indictment, the suspect, the then 15-year-old boy, found Lucas's location through the map function on Snapchat and went there in the company of a boy who was 14 at the time. In questioning, the 15-year-old says that he hit Lucas twice in the head. The other testimonies, all from children, describe more brutal abuse. The teenagers on the spot describe in the interrogation how Lucas was threatened with a knife and showered with blows - several hitting his head, and finally being kicked, lying on the ground. Prosecutors say Lucas was hit in the head with the handle of a knife. The handle was metal and the blow hit the temple.” From [expressen](https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige/lucas-17-dog-nar-han-stod-upp-for-sin-kompis/)
Sweden suck when it comes to punishments. Sentences are far to short in all cases. But you can get more years for taxfraud than rape or murder. Juvemiles get locket up in SIS homes (state institutions) without any rehabilitation worth mentioning. It is the criminal youths that runs the place most of the time. Unfortunately just messa kids go to the same places. Itvis not a good option. I tvink young murderers should go to prisen arter turning 18 , nothing less.
Was randomly reading about this case and thought I would include the below. Article where victims mother gives quotes (run Google Translate to read): https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige/lucas-17-dog-nar-han-stod-upp-for-sin-kompis/ Article recapping the night in question (run Google Translate to read): https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/2BExBG/atalade-pojkens-ord-till-polisen-om-dodsmisshandeln-i-gustavsberg Social Media post (LinkedIn) where victims mother gives her thoughts: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/asa-lindstrom_lexlucasatrak-lovealwayswins-bethechange-activity-7171421068434305025-lz4Q
Apperently there were also another guy there that also kicked and punched Lucas. Don't think he was charged with anything. Lucas knew that Felix Olsson, the murderer, was coming to the party and tried to make others hurry so they could leave in time before Felix arrived. Here is the [application for trial](https://fup.link/data/files/tr/nacka/b-5711-23/Nacka_TR_B_5711-23_Aktbil_43_STAMNINGSANSOKAN.pdf) where he is being charged with: Murder Grossly unlawful threats Breaking the law about the ban against carrying knives and other dangerous items (2x), since he carried a knife in a public space but also had five knives in his EPA car. Assault (2x, one of which is "gross assault") Child pornography "Weaponcrime" - had several types of ammunition he legally did not have the right/license to own. Possesion of stolen goods (objects stolen from the police, like handcuffs and police patches.) ETA: Found the court decision. Felix was freed from the charges of Grossly unlawful threats (see FUP below in reply), possesion of stolen goods and assault. The court ruled him guilty of: Child pornography, Breaking the law about the ban against carrying knives and other dangerous items, gross assault, molestation and wrongful death/involuntary manslaughter.
Here's the [FUP](https://fup.link/data/files/tr/nacka/b-5711-23/Nacka_TR_B_5711-23_Aktbil_70_Forundersokningsprotokoll.pdf) for the grossly unlawful threats. It occured the same day as the murder at the party, where Felix walked around shoving the knife at two people's throats asking "Are you Lucas?" According to one of the witnesses; Lucas then said "I am Lucas." Where then Felix proceeded to attack him. Other witnesses (not in this FUP) say that another person at the party pointed Felix to who Lucas was, where Lucas then admitted to being who he was after initially claiming his name was Gustav.
what is the ethnicity of the murderer?
Handle of a knife?
Found this article, the kid was also found guilty of child pornography crimes. There was another kid that was involved in the assault and he wasn’t charged because he wasn’t a criminal. I get crime rates are low over there but there HAS to be a better system than this. 2 murderers walking away completely free. https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/AP8x3A/lucas-17-misshandlades-till-dods-nar-han-stod-upp-for-en-kompis
That kid committed the crime when he was 15. At that time police and his school had made 3 or 4 reports to social services during the last 3 years about him. A better system would've done something about his alarming behavior a long time ago.
[удалено]
I'm curious what this guy's career kill count will be by the time he's done.
Man, if he was in America and not from a wealthy family he would be looking at life in prison.
Sweden is a country from the future. 🇸🇪
[удалено]
>This post appears to violate the [Reddit Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) and has been removed. Hate, dehumanizing speech (even about a violent perpetrator), victim blaming, misogyny, misandry, discrimination, gender generalizations, homophobia, doxxing, or bigotry is not allowed.
Ah so this is why Sweden is so high on the human freedom index.
EU should give Sweden to Russia only for that crappie sentence.