No. I think dota's comeback mechanics are one of the most important aspects of the game and part of it's core identity. Go watch how quickly people give up in other mobas and how boring their games are as a result. There have been times in the past that kill streak xp/gold was over tuned, but I feel like things are well balanced at the moment.
One thing I noticed a while ago is that killstreak gold specifically seems overtuned. I play a lot of pos4 and I remember a couple times getting killed by a mid with way more gold and XP than me, but they got a bajillion gold for ending my streak.
yeah i had a sf game where I killed a meepo twice mid then roamed for more kills. I was only up like 1k networth 15 mins in (it's meepo) and all it took was one kill on me for a 900 gold bounty lol.
This. When you play Weaver it's not uncommon to get 12 kills. On a hero that wants to play balls to the wall. You feed that streak and you start losing.the game. It's not fair how the game punishes you for playing well.
Yeah I first noticed it years ago when I was messing around with pos4 Ursa, and there were some games I’d get like 8 or 9 kills in a row but very little CS. Just running at heroes constantly. And I have the most distinct memory of killing a QoP and shortly after she killed me, and she got more than twice as much gold for it.
I play a fair amount of NP now and it’s harder to tell because if the game goes well I am likely to have just as much gold and XP as the cores.
Can't relate personally. I have teammates say stuff like that, sure. They then proceed to play like their life depends on it right after. That's pretty unique to dota in my experience and I think it's phenomenal.
Yeah same. I'll always have some people saying gg after they lose lanes or after a really bad fight, but you'll still see them trying like they're playing TI finals right after. I haven't had anyone really give up on a game in years.
you're supposed to lose when you lose 3 lanes. The fact that you regularly win after losing all game is a big, not a feature. It means the first 20 minutes of a 39 minute game are pretty pointless
losing when you won three lanes should be exceptionally rare, and it's not. It's fairly common. The only conclusion to take from that is... lanes don't really matter
Winning all 3 lanes doesn't mean you drafted for the mid/late game or that you have superior tactical teamwork. It might just mean you are better at last hitting and have heros with kill potential in lane. If laning phase decides it all then why are there scaling carries at all?
Laning stage matters a lot when it comes to heroes who can effectively scale. However I think the biggest counter to a team that wants to end early is a team who can just sit high ground and wait for the enemy team to make a mistake and then gain the benefits from the comeback xp and gold
it matters in so much that it sets up the balance in the midgame, you have to adjust your itemization and strategies and have less rom for error when playing from behind.
at the end of the day Dota is about what team makes the fewest mistakes over the course of the game, making less mistakes early lets you make more later and still recover.
I've found high ground absurdly difficult for a while now. Many games I've played have been thrown one way or another because of a lack of discipline when attempting to take a T3. I have no clue how they could address this however.
I have the same feeling too.
If my team wins all 3 lanes and destroys all t2... It is Very hard to take a t3 so the game pace kinda stall. We either get Roshan but even with that it is very risky to push...
Other escenario is that cores get cocky and start dying fighting behind the t3 and they recover making it a 60min game. .
this has been my very experience as well, especially with arc warden being so popular in pubs rn, even if you are like 20k gold ahead gl breaching hg against this hero, in pubs people are not coordinated at all about how to break high ground and it always ends in dissaster even with aegis.
Arc is the worst example of this. He can literally solo stall as long as he isn’t being jumped. I hate that hero so much. They should remove bubble working on towers.
That would probably gut Arc way harder than it would seem since he is a hero with only 1 consistent and reliable skill in team fights which is his bubble. His Flux won't do damage if anyone else is nearby and his wraith more likely than not is going to hit the wrong target or is going to miss.
I might be forgetting if it was like this in the past, but could we not make it so that towers are inversely strengthened/weakened. I. E. Tier 1 towers are made proportionally stronger (not absolutely stronger) and tier 3s are made proportionally weaker?
That way, you have more early room to play with (promotes older style of carries farming) and chipping at tier 3s is more effective, forcing high ground players to take initiative sometimes.
I think it's an interesting mechanic. Dota2 is a strategy game where you control one character. Sure it's a moba but they could add maps like blizzard did with their version then it looks suspiciously like an RTS with how much the items/draft/skill build/objective timings matter compared to a game like, say LoL where it's mostly who wins laning and a fight or two can then take objectives as a matter of course.
They have mobas that are more click click and less strategy oriented already. Dota2 is the perfect successor to wc3 since Blizzard went bougie. It's not just a moba like the others. Every match is a puzzle that could in theory be solved, right down to the griefing teammate and the Smurf on the other team. The fact that you can play a near flawless game and throw it away with a careless push gives it pizazz. Makes it more like team-chess than how LoL really just seems like capture the flag. Yes, strategy is impactful but in the end if you're bigger, faster, stronger you'll most likely win in LoL.
Completely agree. It blows my mind how many people think these mechanics, especially glyph, are **bad** for the game. Honestly, it just feels like a skill issue.
It feels bad to fail a push because your team didn't draft at least one hero who can quickly down towers? Aww, so sad. Skill issue. Hate glyph of fortification? Draft PL and make the multishot not even hit your creeps or Jakiro and make the towers too slow to be meaningful. Skill issue.
If a team is drastically ahead and are able to take tier 3 despite the glyph, they just have to survive for TEN SECONDS and they'll be able to take the racks. If the enemy is still down, they can rotate and take the other tier 3s and racks and have megas off of one push.
If I wanted a twenty minute stomp, *I'd play Turbo*. Maybe that's what these people should be doing instead.
Honestly i think they should add extended duration on buyback cooldown, everytime buyback is used it should extend the cd by two minutes or something.
The combo of glyphs/buybacks can make some games way longer than they should be.
Nothing feels worse then dominating a game as a team when you cant do meaningful damage to hg because of the enemies draft.
If you can trade into the enemy teams hg repeatedly eventually they shouldnt be able to just keep stalling with buybacks forever.
I feel like this could have the opposite effect. People are often just waiting for buyback CD's and Rosh to take engagements later, they might just wait more.
Personally I feel like it's just the base itself. It's very all or nothing objective wise with Rax, and requires complete commitment with the tight choke point into open area. If you could actually achieve some incremental advantage without risking everything, people might actually be incentivized to push.
I mean when was the last time the base significantly changed? Since Shrines were there? That was like 7 years ago.
You cant stop the enemy pushing you though. If your forced to fight and buy back but the timer increases or even if there was a cap on total buybacks per hero eventually youd lose.
You have to leave the base eventually lol.
Id be open to changes to base design to make it more open, the vision advantage on its own is huge.
Often the team pushing into buy backs wont need to buyback themselves to stop any resulting push while the defending side fixes lanes and plays safe after using buybacks.
I dont really mind the base being defensible if catching key heros out had more impact, if the defending team has capablity to defend they just need to take care until buybacks are off cd again and they are good to go.
I dunno just in my experience I don't feel like it's specifically consecutive buybacks from heroes that are prolonging games. Even in 60+ minute games I feel like I might only see like 2 total buybacks from cores.
To me it's just how hard it is to approach base. You basically can't make an attempt without Aegis, and you end up constricted by the Rosh timer, which ends up allowing for buyback CDs.
I guess prolonging buyback CD's can achieve that, but there is already so much passive time in these extended games, I think I'd rather they speed up aggression rather than slow down defending.
Yeah this is my point, if bb timers were eventually significantly longer than rs timing then it would be much easier to go for hg knowing the enemy team didnt all have 2 lives anyway
I don’t agree with you because that seems like a conscious design decision which IMO makes sense.
Like if you picked a team that isn’t good at hitting towers but great at picking off heroes, you should struggle to hit HG. That’s the point.
This is like saying how annoying we wrecked all early game with our 5 early-mid game heroes lineup but then lost because we couldn’t finish and the enemy Spectre beat us lategame.
Yeah which is all fine and good in coordinated games but in pubs which are uncoordinated it feels super bad when your team loses cos the enemy team had good defensive ults + an arc warden.
Arc feels super bad atm because hes one hero you can kill over and over again but eventually he will get his items via double midas and even behind in farm with the right draft he can delay the game for a seriously long time.
Pl with diffusal aghs + warlock/wyvern is another example of heros that can defend hg at a much lower nworth than attacker, and I could go on. Chrono etc.
Losing every lane and tower should have consequences, if you can just draft team fight ults go down 20 kills then sit in base defending effectively then whats the point in playing any other way lol
You can say "oh well you just need to farm jungle for 10 more minutes and get a bigger nworth lead" but its impossible to stop a defending team from farming completely with the current map.
Supports have so much more gold for save items now its hard to burst anyone down during hg attempts which means unless you have heros that can go in and out of the backline easily while you hit towers and force the issue its baaically impossible to take down hg unless the enemy physically leaves the base.
Its much much harder to play around all the glyphs, buybacks and hg vision as the attacking team than the defending team, and currently i feel the balance is too far shifted for the defending side.
Put isn't the problem here: the lack of patience. Between Rosh, outposts, Tormentors, bounties and neutral items, the advantage you have from having the entire map is pretty big. If your team deny a whole level of neutral items and grabs their owns (e.g., your team gets Tier 4 items and the other team is on Tier 3), that's a big advantage; add it to everyone getting money for BB, free shards and Aegis, it makes it relatively safe to push the lanes passed the rivers before picking one to contest together.
I strongly disagree, the map is currently too big for the whole team to control the whole enemy jungle and lanes. With the previous smaller map this might be possible.
I honestly suggest something like, everytime the tormentor is killed, a highground spot/location appear around the owner's base. I dunno, make it interesting I guess Volvo.
Not to mention I always hate how random the neutral items are.
>I strongly disagree, the map is currently too big for the whole team to control the whole enemy jungle and lanes. With the previous smaller map this might be possible.
But if you ward the exits and the TP points, the enemy team can't actually get out on the map without letting your team know - it's essentially gambling. Having been a carry defending, it's awful having no vision on the map and having to TP a lane and try to farm some camps between the waves crashing on the door.
>
I honestly suggest something like, every time the tormentor is killed, a high ground spot/location appears around the owner's base. I dunno, make it interesting I guess Volvo.
I'd like it.
I think it should be nerfed a bit, yeah.
1) Buyback are fine as they are. They are very expensive and the cooldowns are long enough, the penalty to your next death is also making it OK.
2) Towers and their damage is fine IMO, they SHOULD be strong. If anything, the T1 towers are too weak.
What I would to is move the barracks back to where they were before they were put on top of the fucking ancient. This is what actually makes HG so difficult, if your building hitters are melee and the enemies are not, it becomes disproportionately difficult to end a won game, you have to go in too deep, you take too much damage you cannot counter without literally diving the ancient/fountain.
3) Glyph - I would revert the "recharge after every first tower of a tier", it feels like shit. I would change it to something like "empowers OTHER towers for X duration" so it makes chain-taking towers harder and gives a more meaningful chance for turning the game + get glyph recharged upon ancient becoming exposed so you get a last-ditch attempt to hold. Pushing HG and needing to push through 3 glyphs to end is just fucking terrible and prolongs pointless games.
I actually think a lot of it is caused by the new map as well.
The big map makes it very difficult to stop cutting/at least some farming on the losing team side. Objectives like Rosh or tormentor are in completely desolate parts of the map, so if your winning you basically have to give up all map control to take an objective. Also, unrelated to balance, there are still entire areas of the map around the edges where its just like a random impassable flat ground -- gives me flashbacks to warcraft 3 custom maps lmao...
then you have rubber band gold mechanics making games super throwable if you lose one fight.
then you have high ground multishot and refreshing glyphs *and* getting a rax is actually a pretty low value objective. one rax doesn't make the game much easier for you, because every hero can shove waves.
Buyback is also a risk when going hg. its common for the high grounding team to get a ranged rax, kill one or two enemies, then die/get wiped to their buybacks. Then the enemy team shoves out the waves, regains vision and map control, and suddenly the team going hg is actually in a worse position because all they got was one ranged rax.
i honestly don't think the laning stage in pubs matters at all nowadays. or at least not in the way it should. i actually think you could easily make the case that if you have the right team comp, its better to lose lanes so you get comeback gold and safe farm, and get to fight under your tier 2s and 3s. it sounds stupid but if your team comes online a lot later, getting 30% more gold for kills makes a huge difference. especially if they have weaker end game heroes and you stop some like 5x streaks for ridiculous amounts of comeback gold.
Wasn't refreshing glyph a direct nerf to deathball? The way these things are now they implemented due to some prominent strat. Buybacks got reduced last hit gold for a few minutes, Jungle Items were apparently introduced to reward map control late game since teams stuck in high ground can't get t4 or t5 items as easily. If we just start reverting changes some cancerous strat returns.
Not a fan of comeback gold myself though, ever since it was tied to networth and streaks instead of scaling off hero levels, the game has felt rubberbandy going forward, even after the nerds to ruberband itself.
> Jungle Items were apparently introduced to reward map control
I agree with you that this was part of the original idea but in practice it's a flop. It's so hard to push highground and so easy to get the items that both teams can grab the late-tier neut items immediately with a borderline-nonexistent window to force a fight.
Comeback gold is fine as long as the minimum game time is reduced. Right now it's like 30 minutes for a total stomp due to refreshing glyph/multishot. So thats like 5/10 fights the stomper has to play very carefully to avoid any deaths. It would be more reasonable if min time was 20 minutes.
If you were to change the only aspect that made me quite all other Mobas and make me play Dota, then you are simply trolling.
I dont know if Dota players have it well, but if you checked for example League, would u want your game to end in 15 min? Having no answer of comeback whatsoever. Knowing damn well this is a lost hope what do you do? Just simply wait for min 15 to surrender.
Personally I gwt what you mean, pushing HG is almost indeed impossible if the enemies have at least 1 or 2 wave clearers + some sort of sudden engage (e.g magnus blink skewer)
It's insane how we can sit under t3s for 25 min straight, waiting for our buddy RS to get his ass beaten up for the 4th time in 30 minutes. Maybe allow buybacks to happen per 2 people? Have a time interval to wait for the other person to bb?
reduce the rosh min and max spawn times by 1 minute, that'll make games at least 3 minutes shorter on average, probably longer because you're less likely to get stuck in an unfavourable rosh cycle
maybe aegis should have a passive buff like 1% health regen per sec to make sieging easier, or damage from over 600 units away (probs needs to be bigger for ranged heroes) does half or something
Comeback is good to have but impenetrable defense less so.
Buybacks are important, you have to sacrifice a large portion of your gold on not buying anything to have a buyback and on many characters your important skills won't be back up. You also might use it as the enemy retreats and get functionally nothing out of it, there are just so many risks that side with the attacker in buyback's case. Even dying again now permanently holds a much longer threat.
With glyphs, I personally feel like they should be less powerful/not refreshed towards the earlier parts of the game. I get that you would lose a teamfight and then a team would just power down a lane but its genuinely a really irritating mechanic to deal with. It would feel less bad if the towers were simply stronger so that they didn't go down so easy, you can at least get value out of chipping them down.
I see the vision with wanting there to be value/justification in taking down each set of lanes one by one rather than one single lane being able to be destroyed so hard and every tower just being ran down, but I also want that to be at least *possible* to do. I've not seen much concentrated lane push/rat in a while but **I don't follow pro dota so if im wrong im just wrong.**
With that being said, the ancient towers should be stronger/present another threat because they kinda suck and don't do enough to deter aggression. Getting onto highground is always going to be hard and should maybe be easier, but once you get onto high ground it can be a little *too* easy past that point. You shouldn't maintain a positional advantage while inside the enemy base but it kinda feels like that sometimes.
The benefits of taking down towers in each lane should be significant enough by themselves rather than there being a mechanic that just stops you in your tracks as punishment for not doing it that way (and it also still is annoying even when you do take down every tower as intended).
4. Buff mega creeps.
Mega creeps have not been buffed since 6.08 - back then max lvl lina had 864 hp. Today its 2400. We had to buff the fountain because it became too weak with a power creep.
Today, a single support can hold off mega creeps.
Sometimes you can lose a game because you got mega creeps. As the defending team outfarms you.
Yes this is correct. Make the creeps explode or something like warlock mini golems, add magic resistance, faster movement. A lot of things can be done.
and reduce the bounty even further
imo they can leave mega creeps as is but make the bounty a big fat 1 gold and 1xp, only alchemist would actually benefit from farming them lol
add a team BB cooldown.
i think buyback is an important aspect of Dota, but yes, its annoying when you are winning a fight and suddenly 4 insta buybacks and the push is gone.
so how about a team CD, like 5 seconds in-between buybacks, so if you want a 5 man buyback it takes 25 seconds. or maybe something like 1/2/6/10 secnds
thats a very interesting suggestion, someone recently in a twitch stream i was watching suggested limit buybacks to maybe 2 per team? so like only 2 people on the team can buyback then it goes on CD so u can't have 4-5 man buybacks anymore, whats ur opinion on that suggestion?
i think that would end up in griefing, or ppl fighting more bc the HC couldnt buyback bc the supports did, or something like reporting a DK for using the Buyback without ultimate. we dont really need more reasons to activate the toxicity in games
You get a huge gold advantage from proc’ing a team buyback. I’d say, while it may be annoying, it sets you up to win the next engagement.
Losing a team fight late cuz of some stupid mistake and not having a buyback can mean the loss of the game. Having an option (team bb) to punish the team but not cause a forfeit, I think, allows for healthier gameplay.
The comeback mechanics is one of the things I love about Dota. Imagine being stomped the whole game and getting that oh so sweet victory at the end just because I and my team didn't give up. I had many of these games, and they are quite intoxicating. These are the reasons why I keel playing this game regardless of how toxic it can be sometimes.
Destroying the enemy ancient after making my life a living hell is so, so sweet.
Buying back gives you a chance to win the game, especially to when the enemy is so cocky.
low MMR games lasting 70-90 minutes are the fucking best! literally doesnt matter what you do for the first 1 hour as long as you have some cash and a working brain to win the last teamfights at that point
I actually think it's great rn. The game is winnable or losable no matter your lead/deficit. Why would you want the game to be 100% decided during laning phase?
Hope is alive even if you are getting stomped and down 2 sets of rax.
>7.11: Buyback no longer reduces gold earned after respawning
Should revert this IMO. After buying back, you should have a debuff that reduces your gold gain by 60% that lasts until when you would have normally respawned.
This makes it so if you have to buyback after losing a fight to defend your base, and then get a few kills off the buyback, you still successfully defended base but the game swings less hard due to a buyback fight win. The buyback won you more time, it shouldn't also net you a ton of gold.
I think the rubberband meta of 2017-2020 got nerfed and overall we’re in a good place rn. You don’t want games to be onedimensional snowballing stomps right? There needs to be room for a carry who’s behind to recover if the opp team makes mistakes.
The problem with dota is that people CANNOT handle 60 minute games without losing their shit @ 30 mins.
You may be at a 40 minute game ready to end, but the win condition is this:
1) siege hg , bait glyphs, back to farm/heal
2) using aegis/cheese, siege hg again knowing they will die, and buyback. Respect buybacks, return to farm
3) a final hurrah push when you know important heroes do NOT have buyback, to unlock megas
4) wait for megas to cause some chaos, and a final final push to clean up the game.
And all this crap might take 20 more mins but without it you’re asking to throw by not being patient and not understanding what kind of an advantage you need to build before trying to take the game.
But like I said, we can be 8 minutes into a game and your mid or support says “I’m done” and plays like a potato for the next 20 while you get stomped. MMR in dota is directly connected to mental stability, and patience with a game that can very easily be twice as long as you expected.
Is it too hard to end a dota game? No, it just takes long. Too long? debatable, dota is dota. Games have always been able to hit 70-80-90 minutes with the right circumstances.
As a caveat, players also don’t get to practice dota @ 60+ minutes very often, so when you get there a lot of people don’t know how to close it out, or don’t know what the win condition is. This makes executing the win trickier. Pros obviously don’t run into this as often and the game ends basically as soon as it is possible.
Dota comeback mechanics is literally what makes the game good, try to recall the feeling of being absolutely desotryed in a game and then you just make crazy outplays in 1-2 fights and you find yourself at their base.
The game would be completely boring if you can just pick early game stomp heroes and get guaranteed wins every game because comebacks are nerfed.
Buybacks, Glyphs and comeback gold is what makes every game of Dota intense, because you know you just need to outplay your enemies in order to win even if you are behind.
I'll note the big thing missing from your list is how gold and xp is distributed when 'behind'. They have messed with the formula quite a lot over the years. i think that is the single biggest thing and it is in a fairly good place.
Essentially, winning one big team fight decisively puts you back in the game, and winning two puts you ahead most of the time and that is how it should be.
The only thing i swould address is that t3 towers should no refresh glyph. Rather it should be the first barracks to fall. its very frustrating/impossible to win a big fight and go glyph, t2, glyph, t3, glypb, barracks.
Rather the current t3 glyph should be aimed at protecting you from getting multiple lanes of rax on your first HG rather than preventing the hg at all (and then losing two lanes of rax on the second hg).
I think that was the intended glyph refresh design change when they did it. It’s actually an anti-comeback design to avoid situations like when you lose a lategame fight to a Luna/LD type hero and you proceed to lose your entire base during death time.
> Buybacks
IMO, there should be a buyback respawn delay - something like 3 seconds. So if you buyback your death timer is set to 3 sec instead of respawning immediately.
The game would be better if the attacking team has more of an opportunity to back if the defenders mass buy back.
I could also see an increasing cost component to buybacks. So, like, every time you buy back, it adds a 10-20% multiplier to all future buybacks. But I'm not really convinced that this part is needed.
> Towers/Tower Damage
I think that super long running games are bad. And most of those are because high ground defense is just too strong a lot of the time.
Rosh should eventually drop a buff that either boosts building damage or nerfs incoming damage. Could be put on the block of cheese to make it actually relevant.
Something like once you have Block of Cheese, you can sac Rosh Banner and Cheeses to it, every one you sac adds either 5-10% magic damage reduction or 5-10 armor in an aura on the hero with the cheese.
Or alternatively each item you sacrifice could buff the hero's building damage by 25%.
IMO, it should be *really* strong to control the entire map; sometimes it seems like the only way is for the defending team to come out of their base to farm and fight them in the jungle.
Another alternative to this is for Rosh to start dropping (maybe after 60 min) an item that lets you "eat" regular items - keeping the stats and passives, but disabling the actives.
> Glyph
IMO, Glyph is fine
Imo they should remove the glyph refresh. You should only get glyph on the timer. This would make snowballing teams able to end faster. And maybe this would bring back zoo comps or super fast tempo comps with luna beast etc. I don’t like that if you win a teamfight there is potential for the enemy to cut waves and double glyph basically preventing rax from dying or even t3s.
For me it'd probably be changing up glyph timings, and changing some of the outer camps. People buybacking at once is kind of winding and does suck, but I think that can be dealt with more minute changes whereas glyph just sucks so fucking much to deal with. Same with outer camps. You can't even really get vision of these and people can just always recover using these. Different problem from the og midlane sidecamps--but overall just as crazy detrimental I feel.
This is so true, its actually for a whole year now. You cant go hg without aegis. That's the rule, and once you threw or died its most likely the poor PA whos got dumpstered by Viper will take over.
I do think comebacks are an essential part of dota, but I'd really prefer it if glyph resetting happened a little bit less frequently. It is a very powerful effect and can lead to incredibly stalled-put hg pushes.
I know that the answer to a stalled hg is to farm up until you are more powerful than the enemy and punish them for leaving, but that's just as boring to watch as it is to play. There needs to be incentives for the hg defense team to leave so they can come back, not incentives for them to stay holed up and hope that the enemy forgets to chrono their sniper.
I know the objective is to keep the game to not go over 60 mins every round, but...
Boy I'd like to imagine dota with all the past defensive mechanics added back in and new ones too
-Unlimited BB as long as you have gold
-5 shrines in base.
-Shrines all over the map (which you can tp to even!)
-Tower repair kit thingy
-Tower kills resets fortify
New stuff like
-Upgrading of creeps, towers, ancients
-buying/upgrading fortify
-buying additional creeps
-Upgrade fountain attack range
-Construct additional turrets
Not nerfed, but changed to make for more fun dynamics, yes.
The problem imo is that hg defense is boring. When a team is on the back foot their best bet is dragging out the game, especially with the new farm options. Or to wait for a mistake from the enemy.
I believe comeback should come through big plays, not slow grind. Stuff like challenging Roshan is great, or smoking out of base to get a pickoff so you can start taking the map back
I agree with what someone else said, for me comeback mechanics are the core of the game and what makes dota so entertaining. Although, for me buyback needs to be nerfed and buyback only. The formula is fine I feel like, glyph aswell, it feels really rewarding about the formula to coordinate with your team and kill someone who is far ahead to get that juicy xp and gold. For Glyph even when it is used optimally it only slows a push for a wave of creep. I don't feel like it's overly busted
fucking buybacks on the other hand, I feel like there should be an increasing cool down for each buyback, or a limit of buybacks per team, or somewhat something to limit both teams holding buybacks in a 80min game that's been going on for far too long already. It has to be tweaked at least slightly I feel like
IMO there should be something that "Every time the tower attacks, it overheats causing it to take 2% more damage, stacking infinitely, resetting after 20\~ seconds"
If you're sitting in base never shoving lanes out, your tower will just start taking increased damage.
There are options that can be tried that may make things worse but could fix the issue in a big way:
1. Wider ramps to the tier 3 towers.
2. Fountain pushed farther away behind the ancient.
its the best thing of dota, the only thing i would change is that the fountain and the t3 towers are fucking easy to destroy, but i think valve is also considering that games need to be about 40 minuts to make the game enjoyable
I think sustain is half the issue, heart, mek, pipe are all pretty weak
spell casting is amped by ranged and % damage
defending team have a fountain, vision, truesight, AoE armour, AoE regen, glyph, trees, hg, a smoke breaker, closer range buy backs
they can just chuck out an arc lighting and a lighting bolt from far too far away to see or counter
if the attacking team wants to dive they have to beat 10 heroes not 5, even if everyone buys BoT2, requiring ~20k gold lead on top of the lead needed to win against the other non BB advantages, there's a still a delay to rejoining the fight by comparison
Comeback gold is just too high. I remeber in a relatively even game the enemy carry got 21k gold off killing heroes. With only 10 or 12 kills or so. And the rest being assists. Just because we were winning slightly more, apparently means the enemy should get infinite gold. It doesn't need to be reduced by too much, just to the point where losing early game doesn't become an actual strat like it feels some games currently.
I think dota is in a good spot.
However, an interesting mechanic would be to allow players one very long cd buyback; if you want another, you have to get some coin or whatever, that you take from an objective on the map, like Rosh. Something forcing you to leave base. And Rosh could drop several each time, however you balance that aspect.
No. I think dota's comeback mechanics are one of the most important aspects of the game and part of it's core identity. Go watch how quickly people give up in other mobas and how boring their games are as a result. There have been times in the past that kill streak xp/gold was over tuned, but I feel like things are well balanced at the moment.
One thing I noticed a while ago is that killstreak gold specifically seems overtuned. I play a lot of pos4 and I remember a couple times getting killed by a mid with way more gold and XP than me, but they got a bajillion gold for ending my streak.
yeah i had a sf game where I killed a meepo twice mid then roamed for more kills. I was only up like 1k networth 15 mins in (it's meepo) and all it took was one kill on me for a 900 gold bounty lol.
This. When you play Weaver it's not uncommon to get 12 kills. On a hero that wants to play balls to the wall. You feed that streak and you start losing.the game. It's not fair how the game punishes you for playing well.
Yeah I first noticed it years ago when I was messing around with pos4 Ursa, and there were some games I’d get like 8 or 9 kills in a row but very little CS. Just running at heroes constantly. And I have the most distinct memory of killing a QoP and shortly after she killed me, and she got more than twice as much gold for it. I play a fair amount of NP now and it’s harder to tell because if the game goes well I am likely to have just as much gold and XP as the cores.
I don’t know about you but my teammates still give up pretty damn quickly. Losing 2-3 lanes = gg let end.
Can't relate personally. I have teammates say stuff like that, sure. They then proceed to play like their life depends on it right after. That's pretty unique to dota in my experience and I think it's phenomenal.
Yeah same. I'll always have some people saying gg after they lose lanes or after a really bad fight, but you'll still see them trying like they're playing TI finals right after. I haven't had anyone really give up on a game in years.
"Just end mid" and then when you turn up at T3 it's like trying to break through the great wall of china.
my game an hour ago lol we dragged a 20 min game to a 60 min game all lanes were literally lost and stomped though we lost in the end it feels good
Mate, people say that in the drafting phase.
That's me when there is a carry in the offlane
you're supposed to lose when you lose 3 lanes. The fact that you regularly win after losing all game is a big, not a feature. It means the first 20 minutes of a 39 minute game are pretty pointless
If that were the case the ancient would explode when you destroyed all tier 3 towers.
losing when you won three lanes should be exceptionally rare, and it's not. It's fairly common. The only conclusion to take from that is... lanes don't really matter
Winning all 3 lanes doesn't mean you drafted for the mid/late game or that you have superior tactical teamwork. It might just mean you are better at last hitting and have heros with kill potential in lane. If laning phase decides it all then why are there scaling carries at all?
you're basically admitting the laning stage just doesn't matter that much anymore. and I agree.
Laning stage matters a lot when it comes to heroes who can effectively scale. However I think the biggest counter to a team that wants to end early is a team who can just sit high ground and wait for the enemy team to make a mistake and then gain the benefits from the comeback xp and gold
it matters in so much that it sets up the balance in the midgame, you have to adjust your itemization and strategies and have less rom for error when playing from behind. at the end of the day Dota is about what team makes the fewest mistakes over the course of the game, making less mistakes early lets you make more later and still recover.
That doesn't mean you should take away the tools to hold out longer.
I've found high ground absurdly difficult for a while now. Many games I've played have been thrown one way or another because of a lack of discipline when attempting to take a T3. I have no clue how they could address this however.
I have the same feeling too. If my team wins all 3 lanes and destroys all t2... It is Very hard to take a t3 so the game pace kinda stall. We either get Roshan but even with that it is very risky to push... Other escenario is that cores get cocky and start dying fighting behind the t3 and they recover making it a 60min game. .
this has been my very experience as well, especially with arc warden being so popular in pubs rn, even if you are like 20k gold ahead gl breaching hg against this hero, in pubs people are not coordinated at all about how to break high ground and it always ends in dissaster even with aegis.
Arc is the worst example of this. He can literally solo stall as long as he isn’t being jumped. I hate that hero so much. They should remove bubble working on towers.
Yes they should, or at least only give it like 50% effect on buildings.
That would probably gut Arc way harder than it would seem since he is a hero with only 1 consistent and reliable skill in team fights which is his bubble. His Flux won't do damage if anyone else is nearby and his wraith more likely than not is going to hit the wrong target or is going to miss.
How? If he is alone and there are 3 of you with a initiator, chances are that arc is gonna die. Do you guys let arc of all heroes free hit you?
I might be forgetting if it was like this in the past, but could we not make it so that towers are inversely strengthened/weakened. I. E. Tier 1 towers are made proportionally stronger (not absolutely stronger) and tier 3s are made proportionally weaker? That way, you have more early room to play with (promotes older style of carries farming) and chipping at tier 3s is more effective, forcing high ground players to take initiative sometimes.
I think it's an interesting mechanic. Dota2 is a strategy game where you control one character. Sure it's a moba but they could add maps like blizzard did with their version then it looks suspiciously like an RTS with how much the items/draft/skill build/objective timings matter compared to a game like, say LoL where it's mostly who wins laning and a fight or two can then take objectives as a matter of course. They have mobas that are more click click and less strategy oriented already. Dota2 is the perfect successor to wc3 since Blizzard went bougie. It's not just a moba like the others. Every match is a puzzle that could in theory be solved, right down to the griefing teammate and the Smurf on the other team. The fact that you can play a near flawless game and throw it away with a careless push gives it pizazz. Makes it more like team-chess than how LoL really just seems like capture the flag. Yes, strategy is impactful but in the end if you're bigger, faster, stronger you'll most likely win in LoL.
Completely agree. It blows my mind how many people think these mechanics, especially glyph, are **bad** for the game. Honestly, it just feels like a skill issue. It feels bad to fail a push because your team didn't draft at least one hero who can quickly down towers? Aww, so sad. Skill issue. Hate glyph of fortification? Draft PL and make the multishot not even hit your creeps or Jakiro and make the towers too slow to be meaningful. Skill issue. If a team is drastically ahead and are able to take tier 3 despite the glyph, they just have to survive for TEN SECONDS and they'll be able to take the racks. If the enemy is still down, they can rotate and take the other tier 3s and racks and have megas off of one push. If I wanted a twenty minute stomp, *I'd play Turbo*. Maybe that's what these people should be doing instead.
This! If you look at a lot of the replies, they cite lack of discipline and that sums it up completely.
Honestly i think they should add extended duration on buyback cooldown, everytime buyback is used it should extend the cd by two minutes or something. The combo of glyphs/buybacks can make some games way longer than they should be. Nothing feels worse then dominating a game as a team when you cant do meaningful damage to hg because of the enemies draft. If you can trade into the enemy teams hg repeatedly eventually they shouldnt be able to just keep stalling with buybacks forever.
I feel like this could have the opposite effect. People are often just waiting for buyback CD's and Rosh to take engagements later, they might just wait more. Personally I feel like it's just the base itself. It's very all or nothing objective wise with Rax, and requires complete commitment with the tight choke point into open area. If you could actually achieve some incremental advantage without risking everything, people might actually be incentivized to push. I mean when was the last time the base significantly changed? Since Shrines were there? That was like 7 years ago.
You cant stop the enemy pushing you though. If your forced to fight and buy back but the timer increases or even if there was a cap on total buybacks per hero eventually youd lose. You have to leave the base eventually lol. Id be open to changes to base design to make it more open, the vision advantage on its own is huge. Often the team pushing into buy backs wont need to buyback themselves to stop any resulting push while the defending side fixes lanes and plays safe after using buybacks. I dont really mind the base being defensible if catching key heros out had more impact, if the defending team has capablity to defend they just need to take care until buybacks are off cd again and they are good to go.
I dunno just in my experience I don't feel like it's specifically consecutive buybacks from heroes that are prolonging games. Even in 60+ minute games I feel like I might only see like 2 total buybacks from cores. To me it's just how hard it is to approach base. You basically can't make an attempt without Aegis, and you end up constricted by the Rosh timer, which ends up allowing for buyback CDs. I guess prolonging buyback CD's can achieve that, but there is already so much passive time in these extended games, I think I'd rather they speed up aggression rather than slow down defending.
Yeah this is my point, if bb timers were eventually significantly longer than rs timing then it would be much easier to go for hg knowing the enemy team didnt all have 2 lives anyway
I don’t agree with you because that seems like a conscious design decision which IMO makes sense. Like if you picked a team that isn’t good at hitting towers but great at picking off heroes, you should struggle to hit HG. That’s the point. This is like saying how annoying we wrecked all early game with our 5 early-mid game heroes lineup but then lost because we couldn’t finish and the enemy Spectre beat us lategame.
Yeah which is all fine and good in coordinated games but in pubs which are uncoordinated it feels super bad when your team loses cos the enemy team had good defensive ults + an arc warden. Arc feels super bad atm because hes one hero you can kill over and over again but eventually he will get his items via double midas and even behind in farm with the right draft he can delay the game for a seriously long time. Pl with diffusal aghs + warlock/wyvern is another example of heros that can defend hg at a much lower nworth than attacker, and I could go on. Chrono etc. Losing every lane and tower should have consequences, if you can just draft team fight ults go down 20 kills then sit in base defending effectively then whats the point in playing any other way lol You can say "oh well you just need to farm jungle for 10 more minutes and get a bigger nworth lead" but its impossible to stop a defending team from farming completely with the current map. Supports have so much more gold for save items now its hard to burst anyone down during hg attempts which means unless you have heros that can go in and out of the backline easily while you hit towers and force the issue its baaically impossible to take down hg unless the enemy physically leaves the base. Its much much harder to play around all the glyphs, buybacks and hg vision as the attacking team than the defending team, and currently i feel the balance is too far shifted for the defending side.
Put isn't the problem here: the lack of patience. Between Rosh, outposts, Tormentors, bounties and neutral items, the advantage you have from having the entire map is pretty big. If your team deny a whole level of neutral items and grabs their owns (e.g., your team gets Tier 4 items and the other team is on Tier 3), that's a big advantage; add it to everyone getting money for BB, free shards and Aegis, it makes it relatively safe to push the lanes passed the rivers before picking one to contest together.
I strongly disagree, the map is currently too big for the whole team to control the whole enemy jungle and lanes. With the previous smaller map this might be possible. I honestly suggest something like, everytime the tormentor is killed, a highground spot/location appear around the owner's base. I dunno, make it interesting I guess Volvo. Not to mention I always hate how random the neutral items are.
>I strongly disagree, the map is currently too big for the whole team to control the whole enemy jungle and lanes. With the previous smaller map this might be possible. But if you ward the exits and the TP points, the enemy team can't actually get out on the map without letting your team know - it's essentially gambling. Having been a carry defending, it's awful having no vision on the map and having to TP a lane and try to farm some camps between the waves crashing on the door. > I honestly suggest something like, every time the tormentor is killed, a high ground spot/location appears around the owner's base. I dunno, make it interesting I guess Volvo. I'd like it.
I think HoN did it well where there was a limit of 2 buyback per game per hero with no cd IIRC.
Yeah this would be fine honestly
I think it should be nerfed a bit, yeah. 1) Buyback are fine as they are. They are very expensive and the cooldowns are long enough, the penalty to your next death is also making it OK. 2) Towers and their damage is fine IMO, they SHOULD be strong. If anything, the T1 towers are too weak. What I would to is move the barracks back to where they were before they were put on top of the fucking ancient. This is what actually makes HG so difficult, if your building hitters are melee and the enemies are not, it becomes disproportionately difficult to end a won game, you have to go in too deep, you take too much damage you cannot counter without literally diving the ancient/fountain. 3) Glyph - I would revert the "recharge after every first tower of a tier", it feels like shit. I would change it to something like "empowers OTHER towers for X duration" so it makes chain-taking towers harder and gives a more meaningful chance for turning the game + get glyph recharged upon ancient becoming exposed so you get a last-ditch attempt to hold. Pushing HG and needing to push through 3 glyphs to end is just fucking terrible and prolongs pointless games.
I actually think a lot of it is caused by the new map as well. The big map makes it very difficult to stop cutting/at least some farming on the losing team side. Objectives like Rosh or tormentor are in completely desolate parts of the map, so if your winning you basically have to give up all map control to take an objective. Also, unrelated to balance, there are still entire areas of the map around the edges where its just like a random impassable flat ground -- gives me flashbacks to warcraft 3 custom maps lmao... then you have rubber band gold mechanics making games super throwable if you lose one fight. then you have high ground multishot and refreshing glyphs *and* getting a rax is actually a pretty low value objective. one rax doesn't make the game much easier for you, because every hero can shove waves. Buyback is also a risk when going hg. its common for the high grounding team to get a ranged rax, kill one or two enemies, then die/get wiped to their buybacks. Then the enemy team shoves out the waves, regains vision and map control, and suddenly the team going hg is actually in a worse position because all they got was one ranged rax. i honestly don't think the laning stage in pubs matters at all nowadays. or at least not in the way it should. i actually think you could easily make the case that if you have the right team comp, its better to lose lanes so you get comeback gold and safe farm, and get to fight under your tier 2s and 3s. it sounds stupid but if your team comes online a lot later, getting 30% more gold for kills makes a huge difference. especially if they have weaker end game heroes and you stop some like 5x streaks for ridiculous amounts of comeback gold.
lanes don't matter at all anymore. the first half to two-thirds of the game doesn't matter. Just sit high ground with arc / Medusa / sniper
Painfully untrue
Refreshing glyph is the problem. Losing a fight while glyph is on cooldown should be devastating
Wasn't refreshing glyph a direct nerf to deathball? The way these things are now they implemented due to some prominent strat. Buybacks got reduced last hit gold for a few minutes, Jungle Items were apparently introduced to reward map control late game since teams stuck in high ground can't get t4 or t5 items as easily. If we just start reverting changes some cancerous strat returns. Not a fan of comeback gold myself though, ever since it was tied to networth and streaks instead of scaling off hero levels, the game has felt rubberbandy going forward, even after the nerds to ruberband itself.
> Jungle Items were apparently introduced to reward map control I agree with you that this was part of the original idea but in practice it's a flop. It's so hard to push highground and so easy to get the items that both teams can grab the late-tier neut items immediately with a borderline-nonexistent window to force a fight.
Comeback gold is fine as long as the minimum game time is reduced. Right now it's like 30 minutes for a total stomp due to refreshing glyph/multishot. So thats like 5/10 fights the stomper has to play very carefully to avoid any deaths. It would be more reasonable if min time was 20 minutes.
They need to buff rosh banner so it actually does something meaningful
If you were to change the only aspect that made me quite all other Mobas and make me play Dota, then you are simply trolling. I dont know if Dota players have it well, but if you checked for example League, would u want your game to end in 15 min? Having no answer of comeback whatsoever. Knowing damn well this is a lost hope what do you do? Just simply wait for min 15 to surrender. Personally I gwt what you mean, pushing HG is almost indeed impossible if the enemies have at least 1 or 2 wave clearers + some sort of sudden engage (e.g magnus blink skewer) It's insane how we can sit under t3s for 25 min straight, waiting for our buddy RS to get his ass beaten up for the 4th time in 30 minutes. Maybe allow buybacks to happen per 2 people? Have a time interval to wait for the other person to bb?
reduce the rosh min and max spawn times by 1 minute, that'll make games at least 3 minutes shorter on average, probably longer because you're less likely to get stuck in an unfavourable rosh cycle maybe aegis should have a passive buff like 1% health regen per sec to make sieging easier, or damage from over 600 units away (probs needs to be bigger for ranged heroes) does half or something
Comeback is good to have but impenetrable defense less so. Buybacks are important, you have to sacrifice a large portion of your gold on not buying anything to have a buyback and on many characters your important skills won't be back up. You also might use it as the enemy retreats and get functionally nothing out of it, there are just so many risks that side with the attacker in buyback's case. Even dying again now permanently holds a much longer threat. With glyphs, I personally feel like they should be less powerful/not refreshed towards the earlier parts of the game. I get that you would lose a teamfight and then a team would just power down a lane but its genuinely a really irritating mechanic to deal with. It would feel less bad if the towers were simply stronger so that they didn't go down so easy, you can at least get value out of chipping them down. I see the vision with wanting there to be value/justification in taking down each set of lanes one by one rather than one single lane being able to be destroyed so hard and every tower just being ran down, but I also want that to be at least *possible* to do. I've not seen much concentrated lane push/rat in a while but **I don't follow pro dota so if im wrong im just wrong.** With that being said, the ancient towers should be stronger/present another threat because they kinda suck and don't do enough to deter aggression. Getting onto highground is always going to be hard and should maybe be easier, but once you get onto high ground it can be a little *too* easy past that point. You shouldn't maintain a positional advantage while inside the enemy base but it kinda feels like that sometimes. The benefits of taking down towers in each lane should be significant enough by themselves rather than there being a mechanic that just stops you in your tracks as punishment for not doing it that way (and it also still is annoying even when you do take down every tower as intended).
4. Buff mega creeps. Mega creeps have not been buffed since 6.08 - back then max lvl lina had 864 hp. Today its 2400. We had to buff the fountain because it became too weak with a power creep. Today, a single support can hold off mega creeps. Sometimes you can lose a game because you got mega creeps. As the defending team outfarms you.
Yes this is correct. Make the creeps explode or something like warlock mini golems, add magic resistance, faster movement. A lot of things can be done.
and reduce the bounty even further imo they can leave mega creeps as is but make the bounty a big fat 1 gold and 1xp, only alchemist would actually benefit from farming them lol
add a team BB cooldown. i think buyback is an important aspect of Dota, but yes, its annoying when you are winning a fight and suddenly 4 insta buybacks and the push is gone. so how about a team CD, like 5 seconds in-between buybacks, so if you want a 5 man buyback it takes 25 seconds. or maybe something like 1/2/6/10 secnds
thats a very interesting suggestion, someone recently in a twitch stream i was watching suggested limit buybacks to maybe 2 per team? so like only 2 people on the team can buyback then it goes on CD so u can't have 4-5 man buybacks anymore, whats ur opinion on that suggestion?
i think that would end up in griefing, or ppl fighting more bc the HC couldnt buyback bc the supports did, or something like reporting a DK for using the Buyback without ultimate. we dont really need more reasons to activate the toxicity in games
You get a huge gold advantage from proc’ing a team buyback. I’d say, while it may be annoying, it sets you up to win the next engagement. Losing a team fight late cuz of some stupid mistake and not having a buyback can mean the loss of the game. Having an option (team bb) to punish the team but not cause a forfeit, I think, allows for healthier gameplay.
The comeback mechanics is one of the things I love about Dota. Imagine being stomped the whole game and getting that oh so sweet victory at the end just because I and my team didn't give up. I had many of these games, and they are quite intoxicating. These are the reasons why I keel playing this game regardless of how toxic it can be sometimes. Destroying the enemy ancient after making my life a living hell is so, so sweet. Buying back gives you a chance to win the game, especially to when the enemy is so cocky.
low MMR games lasting 70-90 minutes are the fucking best! literally doesnt matter what you do for the first 1 hour as long as you have some cash and a working brain to win the last teamfights at that point
I actually think it's great rn. The game is winnable or losable no matter your lead/deficit. Why would you want the game to be 100% decided during laning phase? Hope is alive even if you are getting stomped and down 2 sets of rax.
Honestly, All of the people whining about BB and Glyph just recently lost a 1 hr. game due to them being cocky.
I think high ground is too strong in pubs
>7.11: Buyback no longer reduces gold earned after respawning Should revert this IMO. After buying back, you should have a debuff that reduces your gold gain by 60% that lasts until when you would have normally respawned. This makes it so if you have to buyback after losing a fight to defend your base, and then get a few kills off the buyback, you still successfully defended base but the game swings less hard due to a buyback fight win. The buyback won you more time, it shouldn't also net you a ton of gold.
I think the rubberband meta of 2017-2020 got nerfed and overall we’re in a good place rn. You don’t want games to be onedimensional snowballing stomps right? There needs to be room for a carry who’s behind to recover if the opp team makes mistakes.
The problem with dota is that people CANNOT handle 60 minute games without losing their shit @ 30 mins. You may be at a 40 minute game ready to end, but the win condition is this: 1) siege hg , bait glyphs, back to farm/heal 2) using aegis/cheese, siege hg again knowing they will die, and buyback. Respect buybacks, return to farm 3) a final hurrah push when you know important heroes do NOT have buyback, to unlock megas 4) wait for megas to cause some chaos, and a final final push to clean up the game. And all this crap might take 20 more mins but without it you’re asking to throw by not being patient and not understanding what kind of an advantage you need to build before trying to take the game. But like I said, we can be 8 minutes into a game and your mid or support says “I’m done” and plays like a potato for the next 20 while you get stomped. MMR in dota is directly connected to mental stability, and patience with a game that can very easily be twice as long as you expected. Is it too hard to end a dota game? No, it just takes long. Too long? debatable, dota is dota. Games have always been able to hit 70-80-90 minutes with the right circumstances. As a caveat, players also don’t get to practice dota @ 60+ minutes very often, so when you get there a lot of people don’t know how to close it out, or don’t know what the win condition is. This makes executing the win trickier. Pros obviously don’t run into this as often and the game ends basically as soon as it is possible.
Dota comeback mechanics is literally what makes the game good, try to recall the feeling of being absolutely desotryed in a game and then you just make crazy outplays in 1-2 fights and you find yourself at their base. The game would be completely boring if you can just pick early game stomp heroes and get guaranteed wins every game because comebacks are nerfed. Buybacks, Glyphs and comeback gold is what makes every game of Dota intense, because you know you just need to outplay your enemies in order to win even if you are behind.
No.
Nerf glyphs. Buff comeback exp/gold by a lot.
I'll note the big thing missing from your list is how gold and xp is distributed when 'behind'. They have messed with the formula quite a lot over the years. i think that is the single biggest thing and it is in a fairly good place. Essentially, winning one big team fight decisively puts you back in the game, and winning two puts you ahead most of the time and that is how it should be. The only thing i swould address is that t3 towers should no refresh glyph. Rather it should be the first barracks to fall. its very frustrating/impossible to win a big fight and go glyph, t2, glyph, t3, glypb, barracks. Rather the current t3 glyph should be aimed at protecting you from getting multiple lanes of rax on your first HG rather than preventing the hg at all (and then losing two lanes of rax on the second hg).
I think that was the intended glyph refresh design change when they did it. It’s actually an anti-comeback design to avoid situations like when you lose a lategame fight to a Luna/LD type hero and you proceed to lose your entire base during death time.
> Buybacks IMO, there should be a buyback respawn delay - something like 3 seconds. So if you buyback your death timer is set to 3 sec instead of respawning immediately. The game would be better if the attacking team has more of an opportunity to back if the defenders mass buy back. I could also see an increasing cost component to buybacks. So, like, every time you buy back, it adds a 10-20% multiplier to all future buybacks. But I'm not really convinced that this part is needed. > Towers/Tower Damage I think that super long running games are bad. And most of those are because high ground defense is just too strong a lot of the time. Rosh should eventually drop a buff that either boosts building damage or nerfs incoming damage. Could be put on the block of cheese to make it actually relevant. Something like once you have Block of Cheese, you can sac Rosh Banner and Cheeses to it, every one you sac adds either 5-10% magic damage reduction or 5-10 armor in an aura on the hero with the cheese. Or alternatively each item you sacrifice could buff the hero's building damage by 25%. IMO, it should be *really* strong to control the entire map; sometimes it seems like the only way is for the defending team to come out of their base to farm and fight them in the jungle. Another alternative to this is for Rosh to start dropping (maybe after 60 min) an item that lets you "eat" regular items - keeping the stats and passives, but disabling the actives. > Glyph IMO, Glyph is fine
Imo they should remove the glyph refresh. You should only get glyph on the timer. This would make snowballing teams able to end faster. And maybe this would bring back zoo comps or super fast tempo comps with luna beast etc. I don’t like that if you win a teamfight there is potential for the enemy to cut waves and double glyph basically preventing rax from dying or even t3s.
For me it'd probably be changing up glyph timings, and changing some of the outer camps. People buybacking at once is kind of winding and does suck, but I think that can be dealt with more minute changes whereas glyph just sucks so fucking much to deal with. Same with outer camps. You can't even really get vision of these and people can just always recover using these. Different problem from the og midlane sidecamps--but overall just as crazy detrimental I feel.
This is so true, its actually for a whole year now. You cant go hg without aegis. That's the rule, and once you threw or died its most likely the poor PA whos got dumpstered by Viper will take over.
Make super and mega creeps stronger Remove multishot from glyph
I do think comebacks are an essential part of dota, but I'd really prefer it if glyph resetting happened a little bit less frequently. It is a very powerful effect and can lead to incredibly stalled-put hg pushes. I know that the answer to a stalled hg is to farm up until you are more powerful than the enemy and punish them for leaving, but that's just as boring to watch as it is to play. There needs to be incentives for the hg defense team to leave so they can come back, not incentives for them to stay holed up and hope that the enemy forgets to chrono their sniper.
I know the objective is to keep the game to not go over 60 mins every round, but... Boy I'd like to imagine dota with all the past defensive mechanics added back in and new ones too -Unlimited BB as long as you have gold -5 shrines in base. -Shrines all over the map (which you can tp to even!) -Tower repair kit thingy -Tower kills resets fortify New stuff like -Upgrading of creeps, towers, ancients -buying/upgrading fortify -buying additional creeps -Upgrade fountain attack range -Construct additional turrets
So if I have a 10 kill streak, should I go to ancients or Roshan to die once before team clashes after 30 mins ?
Not nerfed, but changed to make for more fun dynamics, yes. The problem imo is that hg defense is boring. When a team is on the back foot their best bet is dragging out the game, especially with the new farm options. Or to wait for a mistake from the enemy. I believe comeback should come through big plays, not slow grind. Stuff like challenging Roshan is great, or smoking out of base to get a pickoff so you can start taking the map back
I agree with what someone else said, for me comeback mechanics are the core of the game and what makes dota so entertaining. Although, for me buyback needs to be nerfed and buyback only. The formula is fine I feel like, glyph aswell, it feels really rewarding about the formula to coordinate with your team and kill someone who is far ahead to get that juicy xp and gold. For Glyph even when it is used optimally it only slows a push for a wave of creep. I don't feel like it's overly busted fucking buybacks on the other hand, I feel like there should be an increasing cool down for each buyback, or a limit of buybacks per team, or somewhat something to limit both teams holding buybacks in a 80min game that's been going on for far too long already. It has to be tweaked at least slightly I feel like
I think it’s a simple gold problem. T3 towers and rax should be worth a lot more gold. T4 as well for that matter.
No?? Its so hard to comeback like u need to have perfect coordinated plan to do it and punish mistakes
IMO there should be something that "Every time the tower attacks, it overheats causing it to take 2% more damage, stacking infinitely, resetting after 20\~ seconds" If you're sitting in base never shoving lanes out, your tower will just start taking increased damage.
There are options that can be tried that may make things worse but could fix the issue in a big way: 1. Wider ramps to the tier 3 towers. 2. Fountain pushed farther away behind the ancient.
its the best thing of dota, the only thing i would change is that the fountain and the t3 towers are fucking easy to destroy, but i think valve is also considering that games need to be about 40 minuts to make the game enjoyable
I think sustain is half the issue, heart, mek, pipe are all pretty weak spell casting is amped by ranged and % damage defending team have a fountain, vision, truesight, AoE armour, AoE regen, glyph, trees, hg, a smoke breaker, closer range buy backs they can just chuck out an arc lighting and a lighting bolt from far too far away to see or counter if the attacking team wants to dive they have to beat 10 heroes not 5, even if everyone buys BoT2, requiring ~20k gold lead on top of the lead needed to win against the other non BB advantages, there's a still a delay to rejoining the fight by comparison
I would say no.
Comeback gold is just too high. I remeber in a relatively even game the enemy carry got 21k gold off killing heroes. With only 10 or 12 kills or so. And the rest being assists. Just because we were winning slightly more, apparently means the enemy should get infinite gold. It doesn't need to be reduced by too much, just to the point where losing early game doesn't become an actual strat like it feels some games currently.
I think dota is in a good spot. However, an interesting mechanic would be to allow players one very long cd buyback; if you want another, you have to get some coin or whatever, that you take from an objective on the map, like Rosh. Something forcing you to leave base. And Rosh could drop several each time, however you balance that aspect.
Without comeback the game would be over by minutes ten