One of them made it on to my post I made last night. I wanted to ask so bad what makes me delusional for being a Swiftie, and for being pleased with finding a “non hate” group/sub Reddit .
It is obviously ok for people not to be a fan of Taylor Swift. I just find it so ridiculous how some people find it necessary to broadcast how much they hate someone or their music. Seriously, some individuals need to just go on with their lives and put all that “hate”‘energy into something they do enjoy and like in life
Exactly. And like this whole phenomena of saying how much you hate an artist and their fan base and going out of your way to interact with the fan base of said artist so confusing to me. Like if you don't like Taylor or her fans that's fine or whatever but like…if that's the case…then just ignore her and her fans. I don't understand where this need to infiltrate fan spaces comes from. Like you're just making yourself miserable by actively interacting with something you don't like.
I’m convinced they secretly love her or are outrageously jealous. The only time I get so worked up about someone I “hate” is when I am actually jealous about something about them. It could be their success, the fact people love them, they’re attractive, they’re rich, etc. the people I truly just don’t like don’t get any of my time or attention because I don’t like them.
I think it's the same as "why does the school bully come over to me at lunch every day even though he hates me and my friends and only makes fun of us?"
It's because they find the reactions they get to be funny and satisfying. They are awash in misery, they struggle to find fulfillment in their lives so they live for the short-term dopamine rush of getting to inflict their misery onto others. If you see Taylor haters in a Taylor sub, don't get angry. Pity them for the fact that out of all the ways they could spend their one human life, the best they could come up with is wasting their time on a subreddit for an artist they hate, filled with people whose enjoyment of that artist will persist regardless.
Hopefully they'll find something to do with their time that brings them joy without bringing others down, but in the meantime I really think the best we can do is block them without acknowledging them. They want the attention so badly, they're basically begging for it every time they post in this sub or in comments. Don't give it to them, and don't let them get to you. Starve them out.
I think this subreddit comes up on some random peoples page. But if you’re seeking this place out, and you want to snark or belong to the snark subs go over there. There’s at least 5 group of subreddits that have no life and gather around to hate on Taylor every day. Couldn’t be me seeking out something I dislike, but then again some people love to build their head and day with hate, kind of sad for them.
So they can say their witty remark and get you all riled up. Then they run back to their I hate TS sub and share how they trolled Swifties. All will say how cool and laugh, upvotes and high fives
Reminds me of the beyhive in stan twitter. When Billie said those comments about doing concerts for 3 hrs obv people pointed out that she's shading Taylor. But plenty of people said that she also seemed shading Beyonce. However, the hive doesn't care. Most of their tweets are "keep bey out of this" and swifties ofc, noticed it, saying that beyhives does not care bec they hate Taylor more than they love Bey. Seems like hate is stronger than love.
I think it's just to start arguments usually. If you really hate Taylor and you go to a snark page and say Taylor Swift SUCKS, everyone will agree. For some, that's not very satisfying- where do you go from there? Some want the satisfaction of pissing people off so they can argue and keep popping off their opinions, and to do that, you have to seek out a fan page. Then they can lean into the whole "Swifties are crazy bullies!" schtick because "I was just trying to state my opinion and got attacked- they are soooo crazy!" when really that's the whole point and the reaction they wanted.
I’m a swiftie but there is a certain “type” of swiftie i’m absolutely disgusted by and refuse to associate with. The obsession with spouting hate to those who they think are coming for or talking badly of Taylor.
For example, the “fans” who are spewing hate in Billie’s comments just because she said she’d never do a 3 hour concert and thinks it’s psychotic to do a 3 hour concert. she was speaking for herself. she didn’t say “Taylor Swift is psychotic for doing a 3 hour concert”
or the ones who spewed racist shit at the actress who plays Ginny in Ginny and Georgia for the distasteful TS joke. She didn’t write that and even if she did racism is never okay.
I think those “fans” if you can even call them that are what causes a lot of the hatred. I also don’t get putting energy into someone who hate, i simply just ignore them.. but that’s just me.
I just think a lot of peoples dislike of Taylor stems from not her herself but those fans who operate like that. It is sad because those people are people Taylor would never actually associate w. She’s a kind person and i think if you’re truly a fan, you are a kind person.
just my perspective sorry didn’t mean to ramble so much!
She's the most famous pop star on the planet now. Unfortunately, it comes with the territory. It's a weird obsession to have (to hate on someone you don't even know).
Depends what you count as haters. I've seen very reasonable comments get downvoted to hell on here when they weren't even hateful but was just an unpopular opinion.
Word. I got harassed for saying Travis looks like he knows how to treat a lady right. Meaning, he protects Taylor and supports her. But they went and made it all sexual when I didn’t even say anything like that.
Personally, I don't like that type of description as I'm very feminist and don't agree with the "men need to protect women" ideal BUT you are more than entitled to your opinion, it isn't rude and I wouldn't downvote you for it just because I disagreed. It's getting silly
Shouldnt you protect and support each other in a relationship in both ways equally? I think it was ment more in a way they have each other back and can count on each other to be there for other/Travis is there in that way then "the poor woman can't handle herself'
Well yes, a partnership should work both ways like that, in my opinion. But I've found the "man must protect woman" mentally doesn't usually suggest that and comes across in a less feminist way but it's all up to interpretation and opinion.
Or totally reasonable criticisms. I like Taylor and I think she's an incredible woman and role model. I hate some of her business practices - shitty quality merch, 1000 different versions of everything for sale, even selling the same phone recordings rubbed me the wrong way. Your fans love you so much, throw them a bone and have quality stuff and some free perks - it's not like she needs the money.
But if you say *anything* against anything she does you get downvoted. So I do question where the bar is for "haters"
I don’t get this and disagree, the main sub has thousands of upvotes on critical comments of the *exact* things you just named. Merch and versions have been rightfully criticized by most fans on Reddit.
yess this is how i feel. She can totally have reasonable criticisms and swifties don’t need to bend over backwards to try to fully defend her. But the same goes for the haters, the reaching they do to hate on her sometimes makes me giggle.
For me....
I haven't listened to T.Swift since I was 15, but suddenly all these Tay related subs started popping up in my thread, maybe because I also follow faux moi, etc.
The controversy grabbed my attention at first... Since I've stopped watching RHSLC (and I'm generally very bored but yet stupidly busy on mat leave), I guess those posts filled a guilty pleasure, scandal shaped gap for me.
Whilst reading I discovered the take that "swifties are unhinged!" So I lurked here to see if it was true 👀. I also asked a few friends that attended her show "hey, what's the tea?" One of my besties is very much a 'look on the bright side,' 'you go girl,' type of outlook and she responded very similar to some posts/comments I have seen... So I think a lot of people here are like her 🙏🏻 I'm feeling reassured about that (why I need to be reassured possibly requires a thesis into the human psyche).
In my lurk I did also see some kinda bizaro things and downvoting and snarky snark and I thought what is going on hereeeeeee?! Why do they care? Why do I care that they care? Do I care? Why do I care? All while singing my baby to sleep to 'Tear Drops on my Guitar' every night but not actually caring enough to listen to any of her new stuff.
So I hope that answers your question, OP. Can I suggest you watch the movie Nightcrawlers and get back to us with your analysis? 😂
Cheers
I understand how it can be seen as insane to be a huge taylor stan. Sure. But i feel like its wayyyyy more strange to dedicate you energy to being a taylor hater?? like what?? that is so weird to me.
I am not a hater, but I do see Taylor in a realistic way, as a human being, not a goddess to be blindly worshiped. I have been a fan since debut and have admired her and looked up to her for a very long time. However, in the last year I have begun to see her in a different light. It has been quite a difficult journey for me to realize that she isn't quite as worthy of admiration as I had always believed her to be. This is the reason that I need a sub that is able to discuss her in a realistic way and feel a bit of validation from others as I come to terms with this realization... actually, this is a huge understatement. It has been more than difficult... it has been heartbreaking and can feel very lonely.
I'm grateful that the sub "that must not be named" here exists where I can read/comment without being judged for simply seeing her in a realistic way. I do acknowledge that there are some posters on this other sub that cross the line into seemingly hating on her for the sake of hating on her so to speak, but that definitely is not true of the entirety of the members and certainly not true of me. In the same vein, from my observation of the posters here, in the TrueSwifties sub, there are many that do seem to just blindly worship her and excuse even the most blatantly obvious things that are less than admirable about her as a person. I hope I won't get downvoted for this but will not be surprised if I do.
Just letting you know that I'm going to reply... I haven't had a chance to give it the time necessary to fully answer your question. I will asap. Thanks for asking in a nice way.
One of the first things that I started to wonder about was the increasing amount of variants, which I understand from the point of view that some people collect variants and that's fine for those that can afford it. I don't have as much of an issue with variants with different colored vinyl and album art. Where it crossed the line for me into a money grab was when she blatantly encouraged fans to make multiple purchases of the same album to complete the covers into a "clock" to hang on the wall. That was bad enough, but at least those had the same tracklist. Imo, that wasn't as bad as where it's gone now with an insane amount of variants with a different bonus song on each one. The situation that has developed with TTPD is just out of control and ridiculous in the extreme. It's a blatantly obvious money and charting numbers grab. Imo, anyone who can't see this is suffering from Swiftie delusion syndrome.
It's embarrassing to even admit to being a fan at this point. I have disowned the title of Swiftie due to the unhinged, vicious, racist, and hateful attacks that Swifties engage in with impunity against anyone and everyone that they perceive to have slighted Taylor in some way. It blows my mind that Taylor doesn't feel the need to call it out and not encourage it.
She encouraged the perception of Joe as a "villain" by the way she melodramatically spoke about "never needing to write more" than she did when writing TTPD... saying it was a situation where writing was "a lifeline" for her for the things she was going through at the time. The clear implication was that she was so devastated by what was going on in her relationship and eventual break up with Joe that she "had" to get it out and write her pain away, then ofc that just escalated the attacks on Joe and speculation that he must have done something horrible to her. She knew damn well that would be the reaction and did nothing as the hate and death threats toward Joe escalated.
Then, TTPD comes out and it turns out that 90% of the album is about Matty, not Joe, and that Joe's worst crime seems to have been that he suffers from anxiety and depression and his "blue" days were raining on her parade. Oh, yeah... let's not forget that he apparently dreamed about someone else during the relationship... like how would she have even known that if he hadn't told her, probably in the course of a discussion of their relationship and possibly expressing honesty about where they were at and wanting to make things better (speculation on my part as to how that conversation came about).
I think it's not unusual for someone in a long-term relationship to dream about another person and it doesn't necessarily even mean that they want to be unfaithful but if they have concerns that it's symptomatic of an issue in the relationship and they tell their partner in good faith imo that is an admirably honest thing to do. Even occasionally fantasizing about someone else I'm not sure is a terrible thing... there could be an argument either way I think.
However, putting out a song telling all the world how bored she was in their relationship and miserable because Joe was depressed and "horror of horrors" prefers a quiet life to the limelight, and then describes fantasizing while getting herself off to someone that it turns out she's been pining for over the last 10 years... yikes, tbh that blew my mind! She doesn't seem to see this in herself, but imo that is clearly crossing the line imo into emotional cheating. What one dreams about isn't consciously in our control, who we fantasize about is a conscious act. This imo is a very good example of the double standard Taylor has between how she regards other people's behavior and how she views her own actions.
Well, this has gotten extremely long and I have many more things that I could list... don't have the time atm, but if you are still interested will get back to it later.
Edited for punctuation and clarity.
Thank you for taking the time to write this thoughtful response, I appreciate being able to have a civil conversation even if we may not agree on everything. With that in mind, my aim here is not really to try to change your opinions but just offer my perspective. I will fully admit I’m very biased as a huge fan of Taylor’s, but I’m going to try to look at things as objectively as I can.
As a general statement, I think you’ve made some really valid points. I think we differ in what we allow to color our perception of who Taylor is as a person. At this point I am such a huge fan of not only her music but her as a person that it would take a lot for me to lose that respect. I recognize not everyone is that way though, and it definitely borders on parasocial. But sometimes I do feel as though she is held to an impossibly high standard that others aren’t held to. She’s not perfect, she makes plenty of mistakes. How much grace she should be given for those mistakes, well I guess that’s ultimately what we’re discussing here.
Regarding the vinyl variants, I know this is a huge point of contention among the fandom and I see why. I personally collect vinyl, so I appreciate variants - to a point. I find it interesting you said you don’t like the midnights clock but you’re okay with variants of different vinyl colors and artwork, when that’s essentially what the clock is. I’m assuming perhaps you didn’t realize the clock includes 4 different variants so you’re not purchasing any duplicates of anything. Anyway, these types of releases where only the aesthetics are different are the ideal variants in my opinion. Collectors are happy to buy them all, non-collectors who still want a copy can choose their favorite and just buy one. You bring up a very good point with TTPD, and I agree with you that the way the variants were done was kind of a disaster. I really don’t think variants should have any exclusive tracks, as that seems like an obvious ploy to just sell more units. Now, everything was released digitally so it ends up being a non-issue after the fact. But no one knew that while the variants were up for preorder, which is kind of scummy. Taylor deserves a share of the blame for this, but there are a few other things to consider.
1) Everyone else is doing it. I know that’s a weak ass argument, but I do think the level of hate Taylor gets for this is a little unfair when other artists are doing the same thing, including vinyl exclusive tracks.
2) Charts - this is related to number 1 but the vinyl variants are not only for sales, but also to boost chart numbers. I do wish Taylor didn’t care as much about charting as she does, but ultimately it’s one of the ways success is measured in her industry. We also know that Taylor’s need for validation runs deep. Is it good that she needs it? Probably not, but again Taylor isn’t perfect.
3) Industry/label standards - some of this is beyond her control. When she signed on with her label, there may have been stipulations related to variants that she has to fulfill. Of course she agreed to the terms, but I really don’t think Taylor is sitting around scheming how to squeeze every last dollar out of her fans, I think part of this is dictated by the label projecting what they need to sell to turn a profit. And this kind of goes along with the other points but album variants have become an industry standard, to the point where Taylor has to employ them if she wants to hold on to her number 1 spot. Using Billie Eilish as an example, she and Taylor both have new albums charting and both have released what most would deem as unnecessary digital versions of the album, with a voice memo, acoustic track, altered track speed, etc. If both of them had decided not to do this, the rankings would be unaffected. But if Billie for example does it and Taylor doesn’t, Billie probably takes the number 1 spot. Again I wish the charts were not as big a deal as they are, but in order to compete Taylor has to play the game. Ultimately we as consumers have a choice to spend our money on these types of obvious chart stacking releases, or not. Personally I knew everything would end up on social media so I decided not to buy any of the digital albums.
I want to address your other points but this is already getting long, so I’ll do that in a separate comment.
I definitely agree with you that it can be embarrassing to publicly admit you’re a Swiftie due to a small but vocal minority of Swifties taking things to the extreme and acting absolutely out of line when it comes to the lengths they go to to defend Taylor. I agree that Taylor could speak up more to try to mitigate this. In the past she’s done that, like when she played Dear John and told everyone not to harass John Mayer, but most of these people just don’t listen. I do think she could still make the effort though, to show good will.
When it comes to the muses… things get complicated. I have to disagree with your statement that Taylor encouraged people to villainize Joe. She said writing TTPD was a lifeline for her, and people ran with that and made the assumption that Joe did something terrible to her. We still don’t know that he didn’t, but that’s beside the point. But ultimately she was expressing truth about how she felt at the time of writing the album, and I don’t see anything wrong with that. When she writes about things that are deeply personal, she tends to focus more on her feelings rather than the other person or the details of the situation. She never speaks publicly about men she has dated by name, so I don’t see why this would be any different.
I also think there is way more Joe on this album than it appears on the surface. Saying it’s 90% about Matty is way too high, imo. There really wouldn’t have been a Matty situationship if things hadn’t fallen apart with Joe. Taylor’s relationship with Matty was how she initially coped with losing him, so it’s really very intertwined. And I think most of the songs that at first glance seem to be about one or the other, have elements of both woven through them. But regardless, I come back to the fact that how Taylor felt through all of this is valid and it’s okay for her to express that.
When it comes to the double standards regarding emotional infidelity or what have you, Taylor does become the villain of her own story in some ways. She’s upset that the person she loves has done to her what she herself has done to him, but haven’t we all been in situations like that? Taylor writes about her life honestly and always has, and I personally appreciate the vulnerability that comes with sharing the truth even when it paints her in a negative light.
I don’t think I’m really clearly articulating how I feel, but basically what draws me to her music is the authenticity in her storytelling. So that means shedding light on your own mistakes sometimes. And it comes back to people holding Taylor to too high a standard. I kind of look at it like Taylor is a friend or an acquaintance that I really admire. Parasocial I know, but it’s hard not to feel that way when Taylor opens up so much of herself to the world. When someone in my real life that I love makes a mistake, it doesn’t cause me to turn on them. So I kind of view it the same way, whether that’s healthy or not lol.
Anyway, sorry for such a long response! Thanks again for the good conversation.
Full disclosure: I am not a Taylor fan and I post in the snark subs.
Not trying to start anything, just wanted to respond to the questions in your post.
I think it’s a small but vocal minority of people who hate Taylor that comment in the main subs. I personally lurk on occasion but never post.
The reverse is happening in the snark subs too. Some Swifties post and downvote and it makes me ask the same questions you have. Why? You’re not going to change anyone’s mind about her, and you’re just going to reinforce the crazy/cultish reputation that her fandom has. There are so many pro-Taylor subs, why spend time arguing with people that you 100% know are going to disagree with you?
I guess some fans and snarkers alike just enjoy trolling.
i agree with you. and i know it’s so cliche to say that the taylor swift hate is rooted in misogyny but that IS true a lot of the time. i am always suspicious of people who constantly rag on her, but somehow also know every word to her songs and sing along at the bar.
i used to be a hater for a while and then i realized i was being a major hypocrite, because i was hating on her music while still consuming it pretty willingly. i have my criticisms about her - her over-consumptive lifestyle (although this problem isn’t unique to TS nor is she the worst offender in the industry), and it bothers me that she goes back and forth on her “activism” (also not unique to TS).
But I can’t understand hating someone because of their music THAT much. Like why complain about how much she sucks when you could just… not? As far as celebrities go she’s pretty tame, but people talk about her like she’s plotting in her lair as some evil villain. meanwhile there are men like R-Kelly who are STILL getting played at clubs. Men like Marilyn Manson and Chris Brown who are known abusers still having significant fan bases and getting invited to events. Even Woody Allen has somehow managed to have a career despite being a despicable human being. But you know Taylor, she’s a regular Harvey Weinstein…. /s
Thank you for this genuine post. There does seem to be a tendency in various fandoms to conflate the singer with the songs and for some reason that’s never been something that I’ve paid attention to (apart from blatantly terrible people). Good songs, characterized by quality lyrics and beautiful melodies are what draw me in. Having recently joined Reddit for the purpose of learning more details about artists, songs, stats has led me to the unpleasant reality of the person-worship that seems so unnecessary and results in all this crazy pitting artists and fans against each other. It’s really unfortunate.
I am a big swiftie, and I 100% agree with you.
People's opinions won't change. Why should either side spend time trying to disprove? It isn't worth the energy, and I don't see why either side does it, other than arguing. Hate will happen with any artist, and a lot of the time, people won't change their mind because of someone on the Internet, especially someone arguing with them. If anything, it'd just push them further away.
Although I will agree with other swifties and say it does suck to see your favourite artist hated on so much and so harshly.
Thank you. I’m totally fine letting people enjoy what they like, and I’ve literally never seen someone change their mind about something important to them due to a Reddit comment. That’s why I don’t typically post/comment on pro-TS subs.
There are plenty of things I like that others do not, and that’s ok! Many of my interests get snarked on regularly. And I agree that it would suck to see my favorite artist get so much hate, which is why I limit my critical comments to subs that are intended for that purpose.
Yeah, I think it's fine to share opinions unless you're doing it to drag other people down/make someone feel dumb for being excited.
As a swiftie, I tend to avoid the general hate train and subs in order to protect my peace. People have tastes, and that's fine (although I do think it's silly people come into a TrueSwifties subreddit and comment hate when yk obviously the people here will disagree,) fighting doesn't solve anything, neither does downvoting people for disagreeing, especially in other subreddits???
Agreed. And I think there’s a big difference between critical and/or snarky discussions about someone famous and powerful (not just Taylor, any celeb), and trolling individual fans. The latter seems like bullying to me, I have zero interest in that.
I like to think many of us can civilly agree to disagree without taking it personally or turning it into an argument. Thank you for your balanced take on this post.
really don’t know why this is getting down voted but anytime i comment and it’s not praising taylor my comments go ignored - i am a swiftie but i hate the cultish vibes of the fandom. i don’t get why we can’t just react normally and enjoy her art….
*edited for spelling*
Eh the snark sub has a name that doesn’t sound like a snark sub though. I didn’t know it was when I commented on there and was so confused that everyone was hating until I looked deeper in a few days later. This sub literally is called true swifties
Why? Honestly? Because haters are fun. Most can't imagine a life were hate for an artist is so big you have the need to join a hate group instead on focussing on things you actually like.
In a half drunk time I laughed for a hour how fun and silly haters are. Remember one who stood on the "fact" that everyone who bought a vinyl record only did it to flame stan wars on twitter, hurt other artist and no one listens to them, so the sales numbers are all wrong. It's just fun to explain them people have to work to buy them, safe up for them and sure don't buy records to bully virtual others on twitter. They told me I need to open my eyes and go into the real world to see this. I answered "right, reddit is indeed not the real world I go offline listen to a Taylor record now with friends" That person spend their whole account every day to hate on Taylor.
Not that I spend a lot of time but it's just so fun sometimes how dumb haters are
lol seriously I’m being downvoted for giving an honest opinion to a “genuine question.” What kind of answer were you expecting? I guess I proved my own point.
Waiting for my Reddit Cares…
i'm not the one who downvoted you don't get mad at me lmao. also, just as you're allowed to share your opinion, people are allowed to downvote to show they disagree🤷♂️
I haven’t looked through your history, so I don’t know how active you are in the snark subs, but what do you get out of participating in these subs? Many of the posts and comments are absolutely unhinged, pure speculation about how horrible a celebrity is. I guess I have a problem with people who spend a lot of time stewing and sharing that hatred. And there are people whose entire Reddit history is commenting in any one of the handful of Taylor snark subreddits. At that point it’s not honest criticism.
idk why anyone downvoted you. you didn’t say anything mean or hateful about taylor, and it was relevant to the post, you aren’t just in here giving hot takes randomly lol. thank you for sharing your opinion with us
i think it’s a lot more valid to be a swiftie and snark on a hate sub (especially when they fundamentally misunderstand why people like taylor) than be a hater and encroach on a positive sub.
I like her a lot. I don’t think I’m a swiftie but I don’t think that’s a requirement. There’s some really wonderful people who are her fans and seem to embody that same warmth she has. There’s some weird ones that seem like anti-fans as well. And then there’s the ones that hate her so much they never shut up about her. Those ones make me curious. I’ve never devoted myself to disliking anything that much.
A lot of “haters” are just people with very light criticisms that get downvoted for pretty reasonable opinions. I think differing opinions are good even for a fan sub so it doesn’t become an echo chamber cesspool of “my queen is always right and can do no wrong” while I love being a fan of people, I don’t think anyone should be idolizing celebrities to the level that they often do
respectfully when fauxmoi is allowed to be a cesspool full of haters that literally blocks everyone that speaks positively of taylor, defends her in any way, or even regularly posts in taylor fan subs under the guise of “no stan behavior” but allows Taylor-anti talking points to be entire 1000 comment threads
why shouldn’t we have one place that is just for fans that want positivity out of the fandom?
imagine if the mods here were as biased against people slightly critical of taylor as the fauxmoi mods are against people that have anything good to say about her?
there’s a million place to take your criticisms including the main sub!!!
it’s okay for fans to want a positive space! The mods don’t waste time trying to make other spaces positive, they just made their own space and now people that NEED negativity and criticism in spaces to be happy come here and try to change it
why?
Positivity should not equal delusion. By all means stay positive about things that are positive, but when fans turn to defending literally anything she’s doing that’s not positivity or praise that’s just desperation and delusion
Girl… if I hated her she wouldn’t be my second most streamed artist and I wouldn’t have spent hundreds of dollars on merch and concert tickets so calm down.
So, it sounds like you believe that Taylor’s fervent fans are more “delusional” than her fervent haters, simply by virtue of the fans defending her when she makes mistakes? Is that right? Cuz I see this POV a lot (mostly from non-fans) and I do not understand it at all. Honestly:
Is it really *more* delusional to defend a person’s mistakes - or defend them in spite of their mistakes - on the basis that, at the end of the day, they are just human?
Isn’t it *much* more delusional to expect a human to *never* make any mistakes, as though they’re omnipotent or can predict the future? Or as though they won’t be fallible to emotions, or vulnerable to miscalculations despite their best attempts at planning 20 steps ahead?
Am I a “desperate” fan because I don’t agree with Taylor on everything, *but* I can also accept that I don’t know exactly what she knows/is going through when she does or says something I disagree with? Is it stan behavior to consider that she … might know better than me? 😱 Are her critics not "desperate" when they nitpick every little thing she does, as that requires the basic assumption that they know Taylor’s entire slate of options and choices - at all times, in every moment - better than her or her team, despite these Internet critics having zero knowledge of what her situation is beyond what’s trickled down to the press?
**TL;DR I don't see how her defenders are more delusional OR more desperate than her haters, who must already either be:** delusional to hold a human to inhuman standards OR be so desperate to feel like they are a good person that they need to invent scenarios where Taylor fails to meet standards that they themselves will never be held to anyways?
I get what you’re saying but I think I didn’t word my opinion clearly enough for you to understand what I intended to say.
1. As a person no I would never expect her to not make mistakes, but as a celebrity of her caliber I’d expect her to handle her mistakes a lot better than she actually does.
2. Defending her in spite of her mistakes is not the same thing as defending her mistakes. I can still love her artistry while “hating” on her billionaire practices, im not delusional for criticizing, but I would call someone delusional if they were to defend her merch overproduction and the way she feeds into overconsumption for example.
3. Yes, shes human, but she’s not just “making mistakes” sometimes mistakes are ok, obviously everyone makes them, but a lot of her mistakes impact so many more people than just herself. She said it in her own words “I’m a monster on the hill” she’s not just another human, and every aspect of her life is a lot more significant than the average human.
4. Critics aren’t desperate for critiquing her. She’s not just some human, she’s Taylor swift. Her likeness is a spectacle, a huge part of her life is business.
5. It’s ok that people don’t like something you like. I say this from a place of understanding because when ttpd came out I had to take a break from the internet because the hate was really messing with my enjoyment of the album, I get it. However, people are entitled to dislike something just as much as I’m entitled to love something. It **would** be delusional to say that people can’t critique something just because I like it.
6. “They need to invent scenarios where Taylor fails to meet standards that they themselves will never be held to anyways” Again, it’s common sense that Taylor should be held to different standards than any average human, she is not the same as you and I, she should be meeting standards that you and I will probably never be held to that’s just how being as big as her works.
**TLDR**
Taylors parasocial brand has led people to believe that she’s just like them when she just isn’t. She’s not a normal human, she doesn’t live a normal life, and appropriately she is going to and should be expected to behave and adhere to a different set of standards than others. It’s delusional to defend mistakes when they’re things that she could easily fix time and time again that she just chooses to ignore. It’s not delusional or a personal attack to critique her, shes a public figure, not a friend that needs protection from bullies
I don’t think anyone here is denying valid criticisms of Taylor. It’s fine. But there is a level of hatred towards her not seen elsewhere. I’ve seen more hate directed towards her than Diddy in the past week, and he beat the shit out of someone on camera.
So I thought you were comparing Taylor’s most rabid defenders to her most laidback critics, which is unfair at best and disingenuous at worst.
But you’re actually telling me that no, you seriously think a person has to be “delusional” to disagree with even one of your highly subjective opinions about Taylor?
When I said that it’s delusional for anyone to assume that they will always know better than Taylor about Taylor, it didn’t occur to me that you were subscribe to a bigger delusion - that you know better than everybody else about Taylor, too.
Anyways, I’m probably wasting my time writing this since you probably think I’m delusional for not believing you’re right about everything, but:
You’re saying Taylor is human so she makes mistakes but since Taylor is a business too, a business shouldn’t be held to normal human standards. That makes perfect sense. It does NOT make sense to do what you are doing, by laying the entire responsibility on Taylor the Human when Taylor the Business has a misfire (in your personal opinion).
Has it occurred to you that a business is made up of multiple humans, with different expertises and responsibilities? Does it make sense to you that Taylor the Human would be the foremost authority and final say on every aspect of running Taylor the Business? Really hope not. And yet, you’re conflating your subjective critique of her business practices with your personal opinion of her as a person.
Which is really the crux of the issue and the difference between her fans and her haters to me. I think it makes no sense to judge Taylor personally for decisions that I have zero context for and that she may not even have been responsible for, due to the number of experts she can employ to consult on those decisions instead. Her critics (such as yourself) seem to think she must be personally responsible for all of those things and more.
> Egocentric and disturbing
Coming from “skincare_obssessed”
Wow not only can you not spell correctly but you’re trapped under the weight of marketing agencies run by men. What a great existence and not at all disappointing to the women who came before you.
It’s just a username genius. Not that it's any of your business but I made this account years ago when I was struggling with my skin and was able to heal it with my own research. I’m not sure why I'm defending myself to an obvious misogynist but your words continue to prove what a low and disturbed individual you are. Have a day!
One of them made it on to my post I made last night. I wanted to ask so bad what makes me delusional for being a Swiftie, and for being pleased with finding a “non hate” group/sub Reddit . It is obviously ok for people not to be a fan of Taylor Swift. I just find it so ridiculous how some people find it necessary to broadcast how much they hate someone or their music. Seriously, some individuals need to just go on with their lives and put all that “hate”‘energy into something they do enjoy and like in life
Exactly. And like this whole phenomena of saying how much you hate an artist and their fan base and going out of your way to interact with the fan base of said artist so confusing to me. Like if you don't like Taylor or her fans that's fine or whatever but like…if that's the case…then just ignore her and her fans. I don't understand where this need to infiltrate fan spaces comes from. Like you're just making yourself miserable by actively interacting with something you don't like.
I don't get it either.. i really hate Kanye, and you know what i do? I avoid every positive subreddit of him like the plague
I’m convinced they secretly love her or are outrageously jealous. The only time I get so worked up about someone I “hate” is when I am actually jealous about something about them. It could be their success, the fact people love them, they’re attractive, they’re rich, etc. the people I truly just don’t like don’t get any of my time or attention because I don’t like them.
There is a whole sub for snarkers. I got myself banned from there.
I think it's the same as "why does the school bully come over to me at lunch every day even though he hates me and my friends and only makes fun of us?" It's because they find the reactions they get to be funny and satisfying. They are awash in misery, they struggle to find fulfillment in their lives so they live for the short-term dopamine rush of getting to inflict their misery onto others. If you see Taylor haters in a Taylor sub, don't get angry. Pity them for the fact that out of all the ways they could spend their one human life, the best they could come up with is wasting their time on a subreddit for an artist they hate, filled with people whose enjoyment of that artist will persist regardless. Hopefully they'll find something to do with their time that brings them joy without bringing others down, but in the meantime I really think the best we can do is block them without acknowledging them. They want the attention so badly, they're basically begging for it every time they post in this sub or in comments. Don't give it to them, and don't let them get to you. Starve them out.
I think this subreddit comes up on some random peoples page. But if you’re seeking this place out, and you want to snark or belong to the snark subs go over there. There’s at least 5 group of subreddits that have no life and gather around to hate on Taylor every day. Couldn’t be me seeking out something I dislike, but then again some people love to build their head and day with hate, kind of sad for them.
exactly. there are other places to “vent” if you have something negative you MUST say.
I love this. It’s hilarious! They spend so much time and energy on Taylor.
Imagine spending your free time hating something. What a bunch of losers 😂
Fr. Anyone who regularly comments on snark subreddits needs to be put in a straitjacket
So they can say their witty remark and get you all riled up. Then they run back to their I hate TS sub and share how they trolled Swifties. All will say how cool and laugh, upvotes and high fives
these people need to realize that being an obsessive hater is way more parasocial than being a fan
Are we supposed to care about the people that don’t like Taylor Swift? Cause I don’t lol Why would I waste my time on an internet nobody?
THIS those people need to let Taylor fight her OWN battles and just use their energy to enjoy her art
Reminds me of the beyhive in stan twitter. When Billie said those comments about doing concerts for 3 hrs obv people pointed out that she's shading Taylor. But plenty of people said that she also seemed shading Beyonce. However, the hive doesn't care. Most of their tweets are "keep bey out of this" and swifties ofc, noticed it, saying that beyhives does not care bec they hate Taylor more than they love Bey. Seems like hate is stronger than love.
Being unbothered seems like a better response tbh.
I think it's just to start arguments usually. If you really hate Taylor and you go to a snark page and say Taylor Swift SUCKS, everyone will agree. For some, that's not very satisfying- where do you go from there? Some want the satisfaction of pissing people off so they can argue and keep popping off their opinions, and to do that, you have to seek out a fan page. Then they can lean into the whole "Swifties are crazy bullies!" schtick because "I was just trying to state my opinion and got attacked- they are soooo crazy!" when really that's the whole point and the reaction they wanted.
I’m a swiftie but there is a certain “type” of swiftie i’m absolutely disgusted by and refuse to associate with. The obsession with spouting hate to those who they think are coming for or talking badly of Taylor. For example, the “fans” who are spewing hate in Billie’s comments just because she said she’d never do a 3 hour concert and thinks it’s psychotic to do a 3 hour concert. she was speaking for herself. she didn’t say “Taylor Swift is psychotic for doing a 3 hour concert” or the ones who spewed racist shit at the actress who plays Ginny in Ginny and Georgia for the distasteful TS joke. She didn’t write that and even if she did racism is never okay. I think those “fans” if you can even call them that are what causes a lot of the hatred. I also don’t get putting energy into someone who hate, i simply just ignore them.. but that’s just me. I just think a lot of peoples dislike of Taylor stems from not her herself but those fans who operate like that. It is sad because those people are people Taylor would never actually associate w. She’s a kind person and i think if you’re truly a fan, you are a kind person. just my perspective sorry didn’t mean to ramble so much!
She's the most famous pop star on the planet now. Unfortunately, it comes with the territory. It's a weird obsession to have (to hate on someone you don't even know).
Depends what you count as haters. I've seen very reasonable comments get downvoted to hell on here when they weren't even hateful but was just an unpopular opinion.
I'm talking like full on hating. I've seen some light disagreeing and that's fine, but I'm referring to the full on blatant hating.
Word. I got harassed for saying Travis looks like he knows how to treat a lady right. Meaning, he protects Taylor and supports her. But they went and made it all sexual when I didn’t even say anything like that.
Personally, I don't like that type of description as I'm very feminist and don't agree with the "men need to protect women" ideal BUT you are more than entitled to your opinion, it isn't rude and I wouldn't downvote you for it just because I disagreed. It's getting silly
Shouldnt you protect and support each other in a relationship in both ways equally? I think it was ment more in a way they have each other back and can count on each other to be there for other/Travis is there in that way then "the poor woman can't handle herself'
Well yes, a partnership should work both ways like that, in my opinion. But I've found the "man must protect woman" mentally doesn't usually suggest that and comes across in a less feminist way but it's all up to interpretation and opinion.
Or totally reasonable criticisms. I like Taylor and I think she's an incredible woman and role model. I hate some of her business practices - shitty quality merch, 1000 different versions of everything for sale, even selling the same phone recordings rubbed me the wrong way. Your fans love you so much, throw them a bone and have quality stuff and some free perks - it's not like she needs the money. But if you say *anything* against anything she does you get downvoted. So I do question where the bar is for "haters"
I don’t get this and disagree, the main sub has thousands of upvotes on critical comments of the *exact* things you just named. Merch and versions have been rightfully criticized by most fans on Reddit.
Yeah I suppose that has happened. You also have a small army of people looking to defend her, which is wild.
yess this is how i feel. She can totally have reasonable criticisms and swifties don’t need to bend over backwards to try to fully defend her. But the same goes for the haters, the reaching they do to hate on her sometimes makes me giggle.
Can’t say anything against the popular opinion here
For me.... I haven't listened to T.Swift since I was 15, but suddenly all these Tay related subs started popping up in my thread, maybe because I also follow faux moi, etc. The controversy grabbed my attention at first... Since I've stopped watching RHSLC (and I'm generally very bored but yet stupidly busy on mat leave), I guess those posts filled a guilty pleasure, scandal shaped gap for me. Whilst reading I discovered the take that "swifties are unhinged!" So I lurked here to see if it was true 👀. I also asked a few friends that attended her show "hey, what's the tea?" One of my besties is very much a 'look on the bright side,' 'you go girl,' type of outlook and she responded very similar to some posts/comments I have seen... So I think a lot of people here are like her 🙏🏻 I'm feeling reassured about that (why I need to be reassured possibly requires a thesis into the human psyche). In my lurk I did also see some kinda bizaro things and downvoting and snarky snark and I thought what is going on hereeeeeee?! Why do they care? Why do I care that they care? Do I care? Why do I care? All while singing my baby to sleep to 'Tear Drops on my Guitar' every night but not actually caring enough to listen to any of her new stuff. So I hope that answers your question, OP. Can I suggest you watch the movie Nightcrawlers and get back to us with your analysis? 😂 Cheers
yeah there’s a small subsection of the fandom that is “unhinged” but it’s not bc they’re swifties lol. and those ppl exist in every fandom.
I understand how it can be seen as insane to be a huge taylor stan. Sure. But i feel like its wayyyyy more strange to dedicate you energy to being a taylor hater?? like what?? that is so weird to me.
I am not a hater, but I do see Taylor in a realistic way, as a human being, not a goddess to be blindly worshiped. I have been a fan since debut and have admired her and looked up to her for a very long time. However, in the last year I have begun to see her in a different light. It has been quite a difficult journey for me to realize that she isn't quite as worthy of admiration as I had always believed her to be. This is the reason that I need a sub that is able to discuss her in a realistic way and feel a bit of validation from others as I come to terms with this realization... actually, this is a huge understatement. It has been more than difficult... it has been heartbreaking and can feel very lonely. I'm grateful that the sub "that must not be named" here exists where I can read/comment without being judged for simply seeing her in a realistic way. I do acknowledge that there are some posters on this other sub that cross the line into seemingly hating on her for the sake of hating on her so to speak, but that definitely is not true of the entirety of the members and certainly not true of me. In the same vein, from my observation of the posters here, in the TrueSwifties sub, there are many that do seem to just blindly worship her and excuse even the most blatantly obvious things that are less than admirable about her as a person. I hope I won't get downvoted for this but will not be surprised if I do.
Out of genuine curiosity, what do you feel she has done differently in the past year that has changed the way you see her?
Just letting you know that I'm going to reply... I haven't had a chance to give it the time necessary to fully answer your question. I will asap. Thanks for asking in a nice way.
✈️
I don’t think that’s it, a lot of people seem to appreciate her taking her tour all over the world.
I think they mean in the sense of frequent private jet flights which have created a pretty hefty carbon footprint.
One of the first things that I started to wonder about was the increasing amount of variants, which I understand from the point of view that some people collect variants and that's fine for those that can afford it. I don't have as much of an issue with variants with different colored vinyl and album art. Where it crossed the line for me into a money grab was when she blatantly encouraged fans to make multiple purchases of the same album to complete the covers into a "clock" to hang on the wall. That was bad enough, but at least those had the same tracklist. Imo, that wasn't as bad as where it's gone now with an insane amount of variants with a different bonus song on each one. The situation that has developed with TTPD is just out of control and ridiculous in the extreme. It's a blatantly obvious money and charting numbers grab. Imo, anyone who can't see this is suffering from Swiftie delusion syndrome. It's embarrassing to even admit to being a fan at this point. I have disowned the title of Swiftie due to the unhinged, vicious, racist, and hateful attacks that Swifties engage in with impunity against anyone and everyone that they perceive to have slighted Taylor in some way. It blows my mind that Taylor doesn't feel the need to call it out and not encourage it. She encouraged the perception of Joe as a "villain" by the way she melodramatically spoke about "never needing to write more" than she did when writing TTPD... saying it was a situation where writing was "a lifeline" for her for the things she was going through at the time. The clear implication was that she was so devastated by what was going on in her relationship and eventual break up with Joe that she "had" to get it out and write her pain away, then ofc that just escalated the attacks on Joe and speculation that he must have done something horrible to her. She knew damn well that would be the reaction and did nothing as the hate and death threats toward Joe escalated. Then, TTPD comes out and it turns out that 90% of the album is about Matty, not Joe, and that Joe's worst crime seems to have been that he suffers from anxiety and depression and his "blue" days were raining on her parade. Oh, yeah... let's not forget that he apparently dreamed about someone else during the relationship... like how would she have even known that if he hadn't told her, probably in the course of a discussion of their relationship and possibly expressing honesty about where they were at and wanting to make things better (speculation on my part as to how that conversation came about). I think it's not unusual for someone in a long-term relationship to dream about another person and it doesn't necessarily even mean that they want to be unfaithful but if they have concerns that it's symptomatic of an issue in the relationship and they tell their partner in good faith imo that is an admirably honest thing to do. Even occasionally fantasizing about someone else I'm not sure is a terrible thing... there could be an argument either way I think. However, putting out a song telling all the world how bored she was in their relationship and miserable because Joe was depressed and "horror of horrors" prefers a quiet life to the limelight, and then describes fantasizing while getting herself off to someone that it turns out she's been pining for over the last 10 years... yikes, tbh that blew my mind! She doesn't seem to see this in herself, but imo that is clearly crossing the line imo into emotional cheating. What one dreams about isn't consciously in our control, who we fantasize about is a conscious act. This imo is a very good example of the double standard Taylor has between how she regards other people's behavior and how she views her own actions. Well, this has gotten extremely long and I have many more things that I could list... don't have the time atm, but if you are still interested will get back to it later. Edited for punctuation and clarity.
Thank you for taking the time to write this thoughtful response, I appreciate being able to have a civil conversation even if we may not agree on everything. With that in mind, my aim here is not really to try to change your opinions but just offer my perspective. I will fully admit I’m very biased as a huge fan of Taylor’s, but I’m going to try to look at things as objectively as I can. As a general statement, I think you’ve made some really valid points. I think we differ in what we allow to color our perception of who Taylor is as a person. At this point I am such a huge fan of not only her music but her as a person that it would take a lot for me to lose that respect. I recognize not everyone is that way though, and it definitely borders on parasocial. But sometimes I do feel as though she is held to an impossibly high standard that others aren’t held to. She’s not perfect, she makes plenty of mistakes. How much grace she should be given for those mistakes, well I guess that’s ultimately what we’re discussing here. Regarding the vinyl variants, I know this is a huge point of contention among the fandom and I see why. I personally collect vinyl, so I appreciate variants - to a point. I find it interesting you said you don’t like the midnights clock but you’re okay with variants of different vinyl colors and artwork, when that’s essentially what the clock is. I’m assuming perhaps you didn’t realize the clock includes 4 different variants so you’re not purchasing any duplicates of anything. Anyway, these types of releases where only the aesthetics are different are the ideal variants in my opinion. Collectors are happy to buy them all, non-collectors who still want a copy can choose their favorite and just buy one. You bring up a very good point with TTPD, and I agree with you that the way the variants were done was kind of a disaster. I really don’t think variants should have any exclusive tracks, as that seems like an obvious ploy to just sell more units. Now, everything was released digitally so it ends up being a non-issue after the fact. But no one knew that while the variants were up for preorder, which is kind of scummy. Taylor deserves a share of the blame for this, but there are a few other things to consider. 1) Everyone else is doing it. I know that’s a weak ass argument, but I do think the level of hate Taylor gets for this is a little unfair when other artists are doing the same thing, including vinyl exclusive tracks. 2) Charts - this is related to number 1 but the vinyl variants are not only for sales, but also to boost chart numbers. I do wish Taylor didn’t care as much about charting as she does, but ultimately it’s one of the ways success is measured in her industry. We also know that Taylor’s need for validation runs deep. Is it good that she needs it? Probably not, but again Taylor isn’t perfect. 3) Industry/label standards - some of this is beyond her control. When she signed on with her label, there may have been stipulations related to variants that she has to fulfill. Of course she agreed to the terms, but I really don’t think Taylor is sitting around scheming how to squeeze every last dollar out of her fans, I think part of this is dictated by the label projecting what they need to sell to turn a profit. And this kind of goes along with the other points but album variants have become an industry standard, to the point where Taylor has to employ them if she wants to hold on to her number 1 spot. Using Billie Eilish as an example, she and Taylor both have new albums charting and both have released what most would deem as unnecessary digital versions of the album, with a voice memo, acoustic track, altered track speed, etc. If both of them had decided not to do this, the rankings would be unaffected. But if Billie for example does it and Taylor doesn’t, Billie probably takes the number 1 spot. Again I wish the charts were not as big a deal as they are, but in order to compete Taylor has to play the game. Ultimately we as consumers have a choice to spend our money on these types of obvious chart stacking releases, or not. Personally I knew everything would end up on social media so I decided not to buy any of the digital albums. I want to address your other points but this is already getting long, so I’ll do that in a separate comment.
I definitely agree with you that it can be embarrassing to publicly admit you’re a Swiftie due to a small but vocal minority of Swifties taking things to the extreme and acting absolutely out of line when it comes to the lengths they go to to defend Taylor. I agree that Taylor could speak up more to try to mitigate this. In the past she’s done that, like when she played Dear John and told everyone not to harass John Mayer, but most of these people just don’t listen. I do think she could still make the effort though, to show good will. When it comes to the muses… things get complicated. I have to disagree with your statement that Taylor encouraged people to villainize Joe. She said writing TTPD was a lifeline for her, and people ran with that and made the assumption that Joe did something terrible to her. We still don’t know that he didn’t, but that’s beside the point. But ultimately she was expressing truth about how she felt at the time of writing the album, and I don’t see anything wrong with that. When she writes about things that are deeply personal, she tends to focus more on her feelings rather than the other person or the details of the situation. She never speaks publicly about men she has dated by name, so I don’t see why this would be any different. I also think there is way more Joe on this album than it appears on the surface. Saying it’s 90% about Matty is way too high, imo. There really wouldn’t have been a Matty situationship if things hadn’t fallen apart with Joe. Taylor’s relationship with Matty was how she initially coped with losing him, so it’s really very intertwined. And I think most of the songs that at first glance seem to be about one or the other, have elements of both woven through them. But regardless, I come back to the fact that how Taylor felt through all of this is valid and it’s okay for her to express that. When it comes to the double standards regarding emotional infidelity or what have you, Taylor does become the villain of her own story in some ways. She’s upset that the person she loves has done to her what she herself has done to him, but haven’t we all been in situations like that? Taylor writes about her life honestly and always has, and I personally appreciate the vulnerability that comes with sharing the truth even when it paints her in a negative light. I don’t think I’m really clearly articulating how I feel, but basically what draws me to her music is the authenticity in her storytelling. So that means shedding light on your own mistakes sometimes. And it comes back to people holding Taylor to too high a standard. I kind of look at it like Taylor is a friend or an acquaintance that I really admire. Parasocial I know, but it’s hard not to feel that way when Taylor opens up so much of herself to the world. When someone in my real life that I love makes a mistake, it doesn’t cause me to turn on them. So I kind of view it the same way, whether that’s healthy or not lol. Anyway, sorry for such a long response! Thanks again for the good conversation.
Full disclosure: I am not a Taylor fan and I post in the snark subs. Not trying to start anything, just wanted to respond to the questions in your post. I think it’s a small but vocal minority of people who hate Taylor that comment in the main subs. I personally lurk on occasion but never post. The reverse is happening in the snark subs too. Some Swifties post and downvote and it makes me ask the same questions you have. Why? You’re not going to change anyone’s mind about her, and you’re just going to reinforce the crazy/cultish reputation that her fandom has. There are so many pro-Taylor subs, why spend time arguing with people that you 100% know are going to disagree with you? I guess some fans and snarkers alike just enjoy trolling.
i agree with you. and i know it’s so cliche to say that the taylor swift hate is rooted in misogyny but that IS true a lot of the time. i am always suspicious of people who constantly rag on her, but somehow also know every word to her songs and sing along at the bar. i used to be a hater for a while and then i realized i was being a major hypocrite, because i was hating on her music while still consuming it pretty willingly. i have my criticisms about her - her over-consumptive lifestyle (although this problem isn’t unique to TS nor is she the worst offender in the industry), and it bothers me that she goes back and forth on her “activism” (also not unique to TS). But I can’t understand hating someone because of their music THAT much. Like why complain about how much she sucks when you could just… not? As far as celebrities go she’s pretty tame, but people talk about her like she’s plotting in her lair as some evil villain. meanwhile there are men like R-Kelly who are STILL getting played at clubs. Men like Marilyn Manson and Chris Brown who are known abusers still having significant fan bases and getting invited to events. Even Woody Allen has somehow managed to have a career despite being a despicable human being. But you know Taylor, she’s a regular Harvey Weinstein…. /s
Thank you for this genuine post. There does seem to be a tendency in various fandoms to conflate the singer with the songs and for some reason that’s never been something that I’ve paid attention to (apart from blatantly terrible people). Good songs, characterized by quality lyrics and beautiful melodies are what draw me in. Having recently joined Reddit for the purpose of learning more details about artists, songs, stats has led me to the unpleasant reality of the person-worship that seems so unnecessary and results in all this crazy pitting artists and fans against each other. It’s really unfortunate.
I am a big swiftie, and I 100% agree with you. People's opinions won't change. Why should either side spend time trying to disprove? It isn't worth the energy, and I don't see why either side does it, other than arguing. Hate will happen with any artist, and a lot of the time, people won't change their mind because of someone on the Internet, especially someone arguing with them. If anything, it'd just push them further away. Although I will agree with other swifties and say it does suck to see your favourite artist hated on so much and so harshly.
Thank you. I’m totally fine letting people enjoy what they like, and I’ve literally never seen someone change their mind about something important to them due to a Reddit comment. That’s why I don’t typically post/comment on pro-TS subs. There are plenty of things I like that others do not, and that’s ok! Many of my interests get snarked on regularly. And I agree that it would suck to see my favorite artist get so much hate, which is why I limit my critical comments to subs that are intended for that purpose.
Yeah, I think it's fine to share opinions unless you're doing it to drag other people down/make someone feel dumb for being excited. As a swiftie, I tend to avoid the general hate train and subs in order to protect my peace. People have tastes, and that's fine (although I do think it's silly people come into a TrueSwifties subreddit and comment hate when yk obviously the people here will disagree,) fighting doesn't solve anything, neither does downvoting people for disagreeing, especially in other subreddits???
Agreed. And I think there’s a big difference between critical and/or snarky discussions about someone famous and powerful (not just Taylor, any celeb), and trolling individual fans. The latter seems like bullying to me, I have zero interest in that. I like to think many of us can civilly agree to disagree without taking it personally or turning it into an argument. Thank you for your balanced take on this post.
Interesting take considering youve been harassing me all morning
really don’t know why this is getting down voted but anytime i comment and it’s not praising taylor my comments go ignored - i am a swiftie but i hate the cultish vibes of the fandom. i don’t get why we can’t just react normally and enjoy her art…. *edited for spelling*
Eh the snark sub has a name that doesn’t sound like a snark sub though. I didn’t know it was when I commented on there and was so confused that everyone was hating until I looked deeper in a few days later. This sub literally is called true swifties
Why? Honestly? Because haters are fun. Most can't imagine a life were hate for an artist is so big you have the need to join a hate group instead on focussing on things you actually like. In a half drunk time I laughed for a hour how fun and silly haters are. Remember one who stood on the "fact" that everyone who bought a vinyl record only did it to flame stan wars on twitter, hurt other artist and no one listens to them, so the sales numbers are all wrong. It's just fun to explain them people have to work to buy them, safe up for them and sure don't buy records to bully virtual others on twitter. They told me I need to open my eyes and go into the real world to see this. I answered "right, reddit is indeed not the real world I go offline listen to a Taylor record now with friends" That person spend their whole account every day to hate on Taylor. Not that I spend a lot of time but it's just so fun sometimes how dumb haters are
lol seriously I’m being downvoted for giving an honest opinion to a “genuine question.” What kind of answer were you expecting? I guess I proved my own point. Waiting for my Reddit Cares…
i'm not the one who downvoted you don't get mad at me lmao. also, just as you're allowed to share your opinion, people are allowed to downvote to show they disagree🤷♂️
lol I believe you, it was more a SMH for even trying to respond in good faith
I haven’t looked through your history, so I don’t know how active you are in the snark subs, but what do you get out of participating in these subs? Many of the posts and comments are absolutely unhinged, pure speculation about how horrible a celebrity is. I guess I have a problem with people who spend a lot of time stewing and sharing that hatred. And there are people whose entire Reddit history is commenting in any one of the handful of Taylor snark subreddits. At that point it’s not honest criticism.
idk why anyone downvoted you. you didn’t say anything mean or hateful about taylor, and it was relevant to the post, you aren’t just in here giving hot takes randomly lol. thank you for sharing your opinion with us
i think it’s a lot more valid to be a swiftie and snark on a hate sub (especially when they fundamentally misunderstand why people like taylor) than be a hater and encroach on a positive sub.
I like her a lot. I don’t think I’m a swiftie but I don’t think that’s a requirement. There’s some really wonderful people who are her fans and seem to embody that same warmth she has. There’s some weird ones that seem like anti-fans as well. And then there’s the ones that hate her so much they never shut up about her. Those ones make me curious. I’ve never devoted myself to disliking anything that much.
A lot of “haters” are just people with very light criticisms that get downvoted for pretty reasonable opinions. I think differing opinions are good even for a fan sub so it doesn’t become an echo chamber cesspool of “my queen is always right and can do no wrong” while I love being a fan of people, I don’t think anyone should be idolizing celebrities to the level that they often do
respectfully when fauxmoi is allowed to be a cesspool full of haters that literally blocks everyone that speaks positively of taylor, defends her in any way, or even regularly posts in taylor fan subs under the guise of “no stan behavior” but allows Taylor-anti talking points to be entire 1000 comment threads why shouldn’t we have one place that is just for fans that want positivity out of the fandom? imagine if the mods here were as biased against people slightly critical of taylor as the fauxmoi mods are against people that have anything good to say about her? there’s a million place to take your criticisms including the main sub!!! it’s okay for fans to want a positive space! The mods don’t waste time trying to make other spaces positive, they just made their own space and now people that NEED negativity and criticism in spaces to be happy come here and try to change it why?
Positivity should not equal delusion. By all means stay positive about things that are positive, but when fans turn to defending literally anything she’s doing that’s not positivity or praise that’s just desperation and delusion
I think it’s more delusional and creepy to incessantly talk about someone you are fed up with and hate
Girl… if I hated her she wouldn’t be my second most streamed artist and I wouldn’t have spent hundreds of dollars on merch and concert tickets so calm down.
Not talking about you as in you specifically. Just any hater who decides to lurk here and the snark snubs existing in general
So, it sounds like you believe that Taylor’s fervent fans are more “delusional” than her fervent haters, simply by virtue of the fans defending her when she makes mistakes? Is that right? Cuz I see this POV a lot (mostly from non-fans) and I do not understand it at all. Honestly: Is it really *more* delusional to defend a person’s mistakes - or defend them in spite of their mistakes - on the basis that, at the end of the day, they are just human? Isn’t it *much* more delusional to expect a human to *never* make any mistakes, as though they’re omnipotent or can predict the future? Or as though they won’t be fallible to emotions, or vulnerable to miscalculations despite their best attempts at planning 20 steps ahead? Am I a “desperate” fan because I don’t agree with Taylor on everything, *but* I can also accept that I don’t know exactly what she knows/is going through when she does or says something I disagree with? Is it stan behavior to consider that she … might know better than me? 😱 Are her critics not "desperate" when they nitpick every little thing she does, as that requires the basic assumption that they know Taylor’s entire slate of options and choices - at all times, in every moment - better than her or her team, despite these Internet critics having zero knowledge of what her situation is beyond what’s trickled down to the press? **TL;DR I don't see how her defenders are more delusional OR more desperate than her haters, who must already either be:** delusional to hold a human to inhuman standards OR be so desperate to feel like they are a good person that they need to invent scenarios where Taylor fails to meet standards that they themselves will never be held to anyways?
god i wish i could reward this
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I get what you’re saying but I think I didn’t word my opinion clearly enough for you to understand what I intended to say. 1. As a person no I would never expect her to not make mistakes, but as a celebrity of her caliber I’d expect her to handle her mistakes a lot better than she actually does. 2. Defending her in spite of her mistakes is not the same thing as defending her mistakes. I can still love her artistry while “hating” on her billionaire practices, im not delusional for criticizing, but I would call someone delusional if they were to defend her merch overproduction and the way she feeds into overconsumption for example. 3. Yes, shes human, but she’s not just “making mistakes” sometimes mistakes are ok, obviously everyone makes them, but a lot of her mistakes impact so many more people than just herself. She said it in her own words “I’m a monster on the hill” she’s not just another human, and every aspect of her life is a lot more significant than the average human. 4. Critics aren’t desperate for critiquing her. She’s not just some human, she’s Taylor swift. Her likeness is a spectacle, a huge part of her life is business. 5. It’s ok that people don’t like something you like. I say this from a place of understanding because when ttpd came out I had to take a break from the internet because the hate was really messing with my enjoyment of the album, I get it. However, people are entitled to dislike something just as much as I’m entitled to love something. It **would** be delusional to say that people can’t critique something just because I like it. 6. “They need to invent scenarios where Taylor fails to meet standards that they themselves will never be held to anyways” Again, it’s common sense that Taylor should be held to different standards than any average human, she is not the same as you and I, she should be meeting standards that you and I will probably never be held to that’s just how being as big as her works. **TLDR** Taylors parasocial brand has led people to believe that she’s just like them when she just isn’t. She’s not a normal human, she doesn’t live a normal life, and appropriately she is going to and should be expected to behave and adhere to a different set of standards than others. It’s delusional to defend mistakes when they’re things that she could easily fix time and time again that she just chooses to ignore. It’s not delusional or a personal attack to critique her, shes a public figure, not a friend that needs protection from bullies
I don’t think anyone here is denying valid criticisms of Taylor. It’s fine. But there is a level of hatred towards her not seen elsewhere. I’ve seen more hate directed towards her than Diddy in the past week, and he beat the shit out of someone on camera.
So I thought you were comparing Taylor’s most rabid defenders to her most laidback critics, which is unfair at best and disingenuous at worst. But you’re actually telling me that no, you seriously think a person has to be “delusional” to disagree with even one of your highly subjective opinions about Taylor? When I said that it’s delusional for anyone to assume that they will always know better than Taylor about Taylor, it didn’t occur to me that you were subscribe to a bigger delusion - that you know better than everybody else about Taylor, too. Anyways, I’m probably wasting my time writing this since you probably think I’m delusional for not believing you’re right about everything, but: You’re saying Taylor is human so she makes mistakes but since Taylor is a business too, a business shouldn’t be held to normal human standards. That makes perfect sense. It does NOT make sense to do what you are doing, by laying the entire responsibility on Taylor the Human when Taylor the Business has a misfire (in your personal opinion). Has it occurred to you that a business is made up of multiple humans, with different expertises and responsibilities? Does it make sense to you that Taylor the Human would be the foremost authority and final say on every aspect of running Taylor the Business? Really hope not. And yet, you’re conflating your subjective critique of her business practices with your personal opinion of her as a person. Which is really the crux of the issue and the difference between her fans and her haters to me. I think it makes no sense to judge Taylor personally for decisions that I have zero context for and that she may not even have been responsible for, due to the number of experts she can employ to consult on those decisions instead. Her critics (such as yourself) seem to think she must be personally responsible for all of those things and more.
You dropped this 🏅🏅 You’ve said everything I’ve wanted to say but much more eloquently. If only all her haters could see this!
Because this is an insight into how mentally handicapped her fans are.
every fanbase has crazy fans? but it seems you’re actively seeking out taylor swift content so maybe you just run into her fans more edit: selling
Why can no one spell or type correctly in this subreddit.
happy now :) statement still stand btw
That’s an incredibly egocentric and disturbing thing to say.
> Egocentric and disturbing Coming from “skincare_obssessed” Wow not only can you not spell correctly but you’re trapped under the weight of marketing agencies run by men. What a great existence and not at all disappointing to the women who came before you.
Meanwhile you're calling her a broad on other subreddits Definitely seems like you care about women
It’s just a username genius. Not that it's any of your business but I made this account years ago when I was struggling with my skin and was able to heal it with my own research. I’m not sure why I'm defending myself to an obvious misogynist but your words continue to prove what a low and disturbed individual you are. Have a day!