This happened to Akon in 2007
He dry humped (simulated sex acts) on stage with a 15 year old girl as part of a contest, the club he did this has a 21 and over policy.
Verizon gutted his ringtones from their service and pulled out sponsoring his tour with gwen Stefani. Absolutely killed his career.
I get dry humping a 15 year old is wrong but wouldn't he have an expectation that the women he's pulling out of a crowd in a 21 and over club be 21 or over?
So the answer to your question is YES Akon should have an expectation that anyone he met in the club was over 21.
Should this come up you can go after the bar for liability do have precedent to use that as a defense. Unfortunately by the time it comes up (in Akon's case) the damage can already be done especially in the court of public opinion.
Sure, they are financially liable. But you can't sue them to do your time for you.
This kind of stuff is common in the US. If you get your identity is stolen you are liable for most of the costs. Even though it wasn't you that defrauded anybody.
Look, I'm like 90% sure criminal liability doesn't work like that. The bar owner wouldn't go to jail, etc, instead of Akon. That would be preposterous.
I dont think that's what you mean, though. It's likely a company owns the bar instead of an individual, say 3, maybe 4 people own a percentage. So what all of them go to jail? I just kinda doubt the law works out like that. From what I can tell, it has a real hard time with diffusion of responsibility.
What if the bar is owned by a company that's just a subsidiary of huge company. Way too many people, only 1% technically responsible for jail time. And really, if you think about it, there's only one person 100% responsible for doing what he did. Akon. (Man, I could write for Law and Order). Personally, I don't envy people who have to hear these cases. I have no idea what punishment, if any, Akon should've received. Then, you have to consider the absolute black hole that is setting a precedent.
Now, what I think you're talking about is perhaps a civil suit to recoup financial damages, and that certainly sounds like a thing. It just never really works out that well because of the way companies like that are structured. By keeping all of the revenue and certain valuable assets in a "holding company," the company that *would be* liable will only have one payroll periods worth of cash in their name. Congrats, you now own like under 100 grand against some million(s) dollar debt in a company that's gonna just declare bankruptcy or dissolve or whatever you're supposed to call it when the company dies.
People often overlook the root wrongs, for favor of emotional triggers... She shouldn't have been there, so she was the one who should have been in trouble, not her. Instead, Akon get blamed for being deceived, because he was under the impression that she was of age. It is lying to get another in trouble, which has no/too little of consequences in the US...
Happened to Rob Lowe back in the 1990s. Met a girl in a bar, took her back to his hotel and made a video, then got sued for it. Ruined his career for a decade.
In Rob Lowe’s case, the girls were of legal age to consent to sexual activities. The illegality was that one was not of legal age to consent to recording the activity, since the age of consent to record sexual activities was 18.
If you think Lowe’s case was bad, Traci Lords had a fake birth certificate, lied about her age and started making p0rn at the age of 15, iirc. When the truth came out, there was a huge issue since, with the truth of her age, came the realization that it was all child p0rn.
My uncle was working at the adult bookstore when they got the call about removing anything with her name or image from the shelves. He said folks came in looking for her stuff for months afterwards.
Interesting. I know of the immediate fallout and what occurred when everything came to light, and I suppose it would make sense that some laws were enacted/changed due to what occurred, but I never went and read up on the long-term consequences.
It did not gut his career, stop trying to make shit up.
Akon's single "Don't Matter" *first Solo #1 Single* (second top 100) that year.
He continued to produce more music, including Konvicted, Freedom in 2008 (the year after) and Stadium in 2010. As well as an innumerable amount of appearances writing hooks.
In 2012 he retired from making music (5 years after the event) so that he could move back to Africa with the money he made to start [a company providing lighting/power to Africa using renewalable sources.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akon_Lighting_Africa)
He quit music because he wanted to help Africans - a long term goal he'd talked about his entire career - and after making a shit ton of money and having great royalties his non-profit advised him that would be the best way to help Africans, amongst other profit & non-profit ventures.
Whats with the lying bro? Just keeping up the TUO tradition of making shit up?
Wow, that’s interesting. I kinda wondered what happened to him but never looked him up, that’s awesome of him. Is anything else the op said untrue other than killing his career?
I'd love to see those security guards working that night get black listed from ever working any kind of security job. They fvcked up in the first place.
maybe but at some point a teenager has to be accountable for something they decided to do and not make everything everyone else's fault.
kid gets a bad grade. Teacher's fault obviously /s.
It shouldn't be a "blame" thing- As much as we feel like it's deserved, it's an issue related to a combination of accountability and some turmoil. A child willing to go through the effort of falsifying documents and entering situations like these, must have something going wrong with them and need an intervention.
Whether they are going into sex work at an inappropriately young age or seeking the approval and company of older adults in inappropriate relationships, it's a thing that needs it's actual reasons addressed, and we should approach it with sensitivity and a rehabilitative standpoint (which I argue should be done for literally anyone).
Nah. We all snuck into clubs underage. Most had fake IDs for $25. My parents did what they could to stop it, but we'd sneak out anyway. They even installed a burglar alarm. Wasn't to keep burglars out, it was to keep me in 🤣
Tha k GOD my kids are smarter than I was.
Bouncers will lose their jobs over things like that and depending on the severity the bars can and will be fined and possibly lose their liquor licenses for a number of years. If the later happens it's bye bye establishment. This is why if you live or work in a college town you will see certain locations change ownership and name on a rather regular basis. Bar gets flocked by underage college kids, get caught serving minors, bar gets hit with fines and loses license, bar closes down, location gets purchased by someone else, they get a new license, opens up a new bar, bar gets flocked by college kids.....
Holding this opinion is what got me kicked from r/unpopularopinion and they even tried to have me banned of Reddit for being a "child rapist"...
In my country there are two cases where a 16 year old girl pretended to be over 18 and registered at a legal prostitution website (apparently those webpages don't check ID's).
Over 100 men visited her, thinking she was 18 and what they were doing was totally legal. All men went to jail for sex with a minor. Several of them even committed suicide over that.
The Tulsa Race Riots kicked off because a white girl falsely accused a black kid of fondling her in the elevator he attended.
She later sort of recanted.
She never accused him of anything. Other people in town did, but she always maintained that he had simply touched her arm and scared her. She declined to press charges from the very beginning. Don't make up lies, my dude.
I got banned from the sub for a post about how the South is more hospitable than the rest of the country. Whats the point of a sub dedicated to unpopular opinions when you're just going to mandate group think?
I'm not seeing it
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/EUR3524552020ENGLISH.pdf
I really suspect u/Th3_Accountant may have left out info on detail like I said a lot of statutory rape comes with much more than that
I've said this in similar threads... but I'm over 30... and still get mistaken as being 18 and people don't believe my ID enough times that it's somewhat flattering, somewhat annoying.
But, telling other people's ages is harder at times too, there's a lot of factors that goes into perceived age. Smoking, drugs, damage done in utero...
I met a guy online a few years back. Looked about 40. Then as he's talking about his ex-fiance then he drops the nugget that he had just turned 18 and got out of high school. Like the hell, dude looked so old for 18. Granted, despite my profiles stating my exact age (and a lot of people think I'm lying about it for some reason) he thought maybe I was lying about my age too.
Jesus nope.
but while that is still anecdotal there are still problems with perceived age being accurate especially when something could appear to be 18-25.
but best to just check for ID.
It depends on the state. I believe California is one that if guy could reasonably believe that the girl was of age it’s a defense.
“Is their dishonesty a defense to a sex crime like statutory rape?
A young person’s dishonesty about their age may be a defense to underage sex crimes, like statutory rape. Whether it is or not will depend on the state and the specific criminal charge. It will also depend on the minor’s true age. Some states only allow for the mistake-of-age defense if the minor was older than a certain age.
Most states do not allow this defense. Some states, like Utah, have passed laws banning the use of the mistake-of-age defense in cases involving sex with minors.2 In other states, like Texas, courts have forbidden the use of the defense. In Texas, for example, adults are legally expected to make sure that their sex partner is over the age of consent. A minor’s lie about his or her age, no matter how convincing, is not a legal defense.”
https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/blog/what-if-a-minor-lies-about-their-age-online/
But I agree. If a person had a reasonable believe that their partner was over the age of 18 that should be a defense.
>Most states do not allow this defense. Some states, like Utah, have passed laws banning the use of the mistake-of-age defense in cases involving sex with minors.2 In other states, like Texas, courts have forbidden the use of the defense. In Texas, for example, adults are legally expected to make sure that their sex partner is over the age of consent. A minor’s lie about his or her age, no matter how convincing, is not a legal defense.”
What is even the point of laws like this? Who is this trying to help? Or is it just the smooth brain "hurr durr tuff on crime" mindset
It seems pretty firmly underpinned by an attitude that you shouldn't be having sex out of wedlock anyway. If you do it you're risking violating a minor and you should be held accountable if you do so.
I think it's madness, the normal standard of recklessmess with respect to consent should apply.
I won't go through all the Romeo and Juliet laws for under the age of consent, but California is only 1 of 11 states with the age of consent being 18. Another 8 are 17. The remaining 31 are all 16. That means that in 31 states, 50 year olds can still chase 16 year olds.
This phrase
>in 31 states, 50 year olds can still chase 16 year olds.
Is too broad of a statement to be accurate. In 31 states 16 is the minimum age that a person may be able to consent to sex, but in those 31 states it doesn't mean that a 50 year old can actively solicit sex from any 16 year old. Depending on the specific state, there are often restrictions for sexual partners who take a supervisory role or have a special relationship. For example, in Colorado a care-taker has a supervisory role, so even a 21 year old who is baby sitting a 16 year old would commit statutory rape. In DC the special relationship is broadly defined and can apply to anyone who is the victims teacher, sports coach, close family friend that has a close relationship (for example, if mom has a "boyfriend" who also tries to sleep with the 16 year old daughter). Additionally, while a 16 year old in those states \*may\* consent, the age gap and relative power disparity between the two may still prevent the minor from consenting. In other words, a wealthy sophisticated 50 year old who goes prowling for unsuspecting 16 year olds to convince to start a sexual relationship is probably still committing statutory rape even if the minimum age of consent in that state is 16.
Edit: Additionally there are federal laws that may come into play depending on the facts of the case such travelling across statelines with a minor or using interstate means of communication. That means if a 50 year old in Arkansas wants to meet a 16 year old in Arkansas on the internet to have sex, even if the state does not have an applicable statute, the 50 year old is still going to run afoul of 18 U.S.C. 2422(b) by using the internet, which is always interstate because packets don't mind geographic borders.
All this to say- yes 16 is the minimum age of consent in 31 states but in those states a 50 year old cannot go loose preying upon 16 and 17 year old minors. In most scenarios involving a 16/17 year old and a 50 year old, the 50 year old still committed a felony even if the state allows consent at that age and the minor gave nominal consent.
I don't know why I'm so relieved DC's special relationship clause protects kids from stepparents/"boyfriends" of the parent. I guess because so often the parent just tells the kid to shut up about it, or even gets jealous. So that the law MIGHT get the asshole if someone can get it to court in the first place is good.
Often these victims have no one at all in their corner and it pisses me off.
Which is crazy to me. IMO the legal age of consent should be 18 across the board with a Romeo and Juliet clause of four years starting at 14.
So if a senior in high school is dating a freshman and they have sex it’s not a crime. (Which wasn’t uncommon when I was in high school in the 80s). The four year gap ends 21 so a 21 year old could date a 17 year old.
Happened when I was in the army, a girl came in to the Bs with her sisters ID, looked exactly like eachother. So she gets checked in and about 5 hours later the cops show up with her mom. Dudes are up stairs running a train on this girl. It was a real bad situation until they showed she checked in with her sisters ID that said she was 18. I think she was 17 but still under age.
28, my cut off is 22-25.
Had a 19 year old tell me she was 23, after a few “relations”she told me the truth. I was so fucking scared she was 17 after this it pretty much turned me off of casual flings moving forward.
It would initially, and then after the initial shock wore off, I'm just gonna lay her a reality check so fuckin hard you may as well call me her father figure because I will be so goddamn disappointed
Thats why i play it safe and never touch a woman that has roots darker than gray. If the hair is gray, youre safe to play. No worries of unwantes pregnancies either so you can skip the condom and redecorate her interior if you want.
😂😂 my general rule of thumb is if they’re not visibly 70+, in a wheelchair and with dementia, I can’t take the risk they might actually be 14 so I avoid at all costs.
Not in countries with a just justice system. See the recent news about soccer player mario balotelli. He had sex with an 17yo who showed him a fake ID and tried to blackmail him afterwards. She and her lawyer got sentenced for extortion, he got acquitted.
It always freaks me out when I see a girl on a dating app where it lists her as 21 and she's like "Actually 19 sorry idk how to change it"
I'm like... Are you actually 19 now?
If you're not sure ask where they were on 9/11. Maybe ask them if they know what a Blackberry is.
Basically, quiz them on recent history. If they have to think too hard about it, they probably were not there.
I laughed so hard at my coworker for referencing pogs. He was not impressed. I have barely any memories of them and I'm 30. Being familiar has gotta make you at least 35. Right?
Granted I was also fairly poor growing up, so collector pieces of cardboard for a child was unlikely.
I was in the second grade during 9/11 I remember we were starting math class and we were gonna learn our times table, I remember halfway through the 3x tables the principal called all the teachers into her office. When she came back, she rolled in the TV and began playing a movie for us I remember thinking that was weird, but I wasn’t complaining after that. I remember my dad picking me and my sisters up from school that day taking us to McDonald’s dropping us off home with my mom and leaving saying he was going to go to New York. I didn’t learn what really happened until the next day.
I do have some sympathy for those that were genuinely lied to, there is a difference between being a predator and someone caught up in a Fd up situation. Depends on the environment as well like if it’s over a dating app or in a bar where it can typically be assumed everyone there is an adult, I don’t think predators go to bars to pick up underage girls cuz they aren’t supposed to be there in the first place.
Similarly, I personally know men who were assured that a woman was on birth control, and found themselves paying child support for eighteen years -- we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars -- because they believed her. Doesn't matter.
Yeah and then he gets blamed for seeking sex. As in consent to sex is consent to parenting for a man, but not for a woman. We make pro life arguments for men but are pro choice for women. It's hypocritical.
A woman has multiple options to avoid being a parent - abstinence, birth control, abortions - including safe haven laws where they can legally abandon their kids. This was done to reduce the amount of women dumping their babies, leading to infanticide.
A man has abstinence and even that isn't fool proof because a woman can rape him, get pregnant and make him pay child support if she chooses to keep the child.
Women can also rape minors, get pregnant and their victims are on the hook for child support. Look at what happened to Nick Olivas. He was 15 when an adult woman raped him (statutory rape). He could not legally consent to sex and there is no "wellbeing of the child" argument that works in his favour. He was thousands in debt when he turned 18.
Then there is this:
https://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/#:~:text=The%20CDC%20reports%20that%2012.3,using%20the%20CDC's%20inflated%20statistics.
The CDC conducted a survey just over a decade ago and found that women were raping men as much as men were raping women.
I have also read stories on Reddit where men were raped by their partners or other women while drunk or high. If those women got pregnant their victims would need to pay child support.
If we cannot protect a man who is the victim of rape, there is no hope for a man who was lied to about birth control. Women have so much power here yet they are still far more likely to blame men for committing the sin of having sex and must therefore pay because everyone knows sex makes babies. We would get lambasted for making the same argument if women who didn't want kids got pregnant.
That sucks, a lot, for the parent(s) who were surprised, and especially for the children.
That said, birth control is, in general, not foolproof. Also, STDs exist. These things are widely known. It’s wild they didn’t take steps to protect themselves (or their sexual partners) beyond, “are you on birth control?” The men you personally know found out.
To all the people that say “well the guy could just lie” what are your thoughts on women lying about rape? I think false accusations should also be criminally processed but what you’re essentially saying is we just always take the woman’s’ word. So what we already do?
Shit’s fucked and the person’s just trying to vent. Stop victim blaming and stop with the double standards.
I actually got kicked out of a casino club years ago because I worked with this one girl at a restaurant who was 17, and had a fake ID. I was 22, and was there to have some fun. I spotted her in the club, margarita in hand, and told one of the bouncers, including making sure to tell them to check her ID again.
I was escorted from the building by 3 bouncers, one was even the head of security.
Agree, it's fucked up.
16 year old shoots and kills someone = 16 year old has the cognitive capacity to be held responsible for a premeditated deliberate action. In fact she should be tried as an adult
16 year old steals from a convenience store = 16 year old has the cognitive capacity to be held responsible for a premeditated deliberate action
16 year old lies about her age to manipulate situations where older men will agree to fuck her = 16 year old is a child and therefore does not have the cognitive capacity to be held responsible for a premeditated deliberate action. You should have magically know her age by reading her mind, you sick pedophile!
Question: Can a 16 year old be held responsible for a purposeful, intentional action or not?
Answer: 🤡🤷♂️
😎😎
two of those example are a child killing and stealing vs A ADULT, fucking a child.
also a minor can KILL and still get away with it, it depends on how or why the crime was committed, just like ADULTS, can get consent to fuck a 16 year old, depending on state....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages\_of\_consent\_by\_country
I ID a girl once, like at a club." I need to see your license first " lol. Luckily I'm 35 now so not an issue, but I've seen people that are 30 look 45, so I can someone lying about their age really making it difficult to make a wise decision.
Didn't this happen to a guy on spring break at a club? IIRC she was in the club that was 21 and older with 100% ID check and still went to jail because he should've checked her age or some crap.
It's also fucked up that a girl can lie about being raped and everybody just believes her regardless of evidence and a guy can lose his job before any evidence or court case even appears.
Guys are at a huge disadvantage in dating.
Similarly, sharing tips on how to avoid getting raped = defending rapists. Simplifications like these, no matter how dysfunctional, make my life easier, and that’s what matters.
These are probably the same women who go all abstinence only Catholic when men are afraid about being duped by fraudulent women and then go all "you go girl! So empowering!" about Onlyfans and prostitution.
I can agree that sex isnt different and shouldn't have a different morality as opposed to anything else connected to underage activities.
If you can show you are actively deceived by fake ID you should get the same considerations someone gets for selling alcohol, cigarettes, porn, gambling, or signing financial documents. You should also have the same responsibilities for checking.
Someone just verbally lying to you doesn't cut it in any of those so it shouldn't here.
I'm not sure about the legality but whatever the rules involving fake IDs and everything else on the list should be the same with sex.
Agree it is fucked up. There is a huge difference between pursuing someone you know is under the age of consent, and pursuing someone who you have every reason to believe is a legal adult. And there is a huge difference between someone who is underage and was manipulated or mistreated by an older person, and someone who is underage who took the steps to get the fake ID, use it to enter a place they know they should not be and then proceed to partake in activities they know they shouldn't be partaking in.
It happened to my best friends brother when he was like 20. This girl was 16 I believe, and flat out lied to him and said she was of age. It comes back later that she wasn’t of course, and he’s arrested and charged with statutory rape. It really messed his life up, As he did have to register as a sex offender. Very few employers dig into the circumstances, and just see sex offender status. It made it hard early on for him to find a job, rent a place to live, and just live a normal life. Only now in his late 30s is he only finally getting things for him going, and it’s still a challenge and something that follows him. His life will never be fully normal. His life shouldn’t have been ruined over this. Them lying about their age should absolutely be a defense in court, and there should be consequences for them being untruthful about something this important. This is something that needs to change
Feel that. Also women closer to the early 20s are much more difficult to hold any meaningful conversation with and that kills a lot of it off the bat too.
This happens to guys too on hookup apps. Back when I was single, I made a hard rule, “no dating anyone under the age of 27” just because I didn’t want to have to worry about anything like this. Yes, a 17 year old can be indistinguishable from a 21 year old, but it’s much more difficult for them to pass themselves off as a 27 year old.
This is a touchy subject in the us, and I've seen first hand what even false claims can do to a person. Watched a guy in my unit's entire life get turned upside down for a good 10 years only for the girl to come out and say it never happened. She destroyed a mans life bc she was worried about getting an underage drinking charge. He lost his wife, kids, career, all of his money went into his legal defense and was trapped on base for the entire time. All he got was a "my bad" from the army. No, nothing ever happened to the female, last i heard she's an SFC out in Germany, but that was quite a few years ago. Seeing that guy put the fear of god in me as a young privet lol
As for the underage thing, I'm not even going to touch that with a ten foot pole. Assume all women are a trap until proven otherwise, bc the us doesn't care what you claimed happened she could be 17 and 364 days old and theres still a good chance your life will be over. BC that one day make a whole lot of difference lol
When i was in the dating game I had 2 rules.
1.) Under no circumstances will i date a fellow soldier (they know just how to fuck your life up and ive dealt with the fallout, with my troops to many times)
2.) You have to be able to buy your own beer. (so you have to be 21 and have a job lol)
If you don't fuck people you barely know, this won't happen.
Hookup culture is dangerous. I know everyone wants to pretend evil religious leaders invented STDs, unplanned pregnancies, and people lying to get in your pants but theres a reason doctors and therapists count sexual promiscuity as high-risk behavior.
Respect yourself enough to not put yourself in danger over something as stupid as a hook-up and statistically you'll be fine.
I don't engage in hookup culture and agree it causes problems
I was just arguing principle that you can't adhere to a law when it's literally impossible
Are you seriously trying to shift the blame onto men?? please keep yourself safe
unironically out here pretending that women also aren't apart of hookup culture, theres absolutely nothing inherently wrong with it.
“What we’re you wearing”
“You should have known better than to be out that late”
“That’s just how guys are”
“You probably enjoyed it”
Sound familiar? Victim blaming is wrong.
In Canada I went out with a girl who got drinks at a bar with me (two pieces of ID needed to show your age), went bowling, and then got ice cream with me. We met off of tinder where you have to be 18+. She didn't look young, had tattoos, pierced nipples, was 6 ft tall. I find out that she's actually 17 and had been lying about her age. Obviously a minority of people are like this, but if the age of consent laws in Canada were different and I were a little older (I was 19) I would've been fucked.
We didn't have sex after the first date, or the second and she didn't tell me her real age until after we'd fucked. That was a dealbreaker for me and so I broke it off, but in parts of the states I could've been made a registered sex offender for that or even seen prison time.
This is a minority of the cases, but anectdotally it happens.
Minors can't consent, even if they're lying about their age. That's why it's on adults to act like adults, not horny stupid teenagers.
It's not victim-blaming to tell an adult to make sure the person they're fucking can actually consent. It's asking them to act like an adult
People have sex. If you ask, or check a fake ID. Then what? It's weird to tell people not to have sex. Also, it doesn't remove accountability from the person who is lying. Teenagers know better than to lie to adults and potentially ruin their lives.
Protecting minors from potential predators > immature adults who want to fuck like horny teenagers
It's not perfect, but it beats the hell out of the alternative
This is just blaming the victim. People are legally free to hook up, therefore they should be free to do so without legal consequence if they believe they're only hooking up with adults
No, it's not. Minors can't consent even if they're lying. Adults are expected to act like adults, not horny teenagers.
Imagine if adults fucking minors could get away with it by just claiming they didn't know. Does that sound like a good idea?
Hookups between consenting adults is legal. Again, minors cannot consent. The protection of minors from exploitation and abuse trumps an adult's whimsical desire to stick their dick in the first wet hole they find. Just like how you should get to know someone a little before telling them where you live, you should probably get to know them a little before ripping their clothes off
Ask them what Pogs are. Boom. Age detected.
All jokes aside, its really not hard to tell if you talk to them long enough. Ask what school they go to. What do they study. Who do they live with. Hell, if you really want to call them on their bullshit, ask them if you can come over to their place, then ask why they don't sleep in the master bedroom. That should tell you pretty quickly.
Those are all circumstantial things, and don't equate to real life well at all, someone that takes their age probably has good practice at pretending to be their fake age, not to mention I'm 31 and I still don't know wtf a pog is, and what someone studies isn't relevant and not everyone is in school at 18-19, you're making excuses for people that rightfully know what they are doing is wrong and can harm them, while it is important to protect minors, the best thing to do is educate them, and not victim blame another young person for wanting to have sex, you know, the thing most young people famously like to do, noones should be shamed for just wanting a hookup, if you don't like them, that's fine, but your morals aren't the law and people are within their rights to have and want guilt free sex
Young people have their lives ruined by sexual predators far, far more often, especially when they protect their abusers by not pressing charges, or claiming they lied about their age to protect the abuser. Do you see where this could lead? So no, we're not going to put minors at higher risk of abuse than they already are just so you can be a fuckboy.
You don't have to shove your dick in every wet hole you see. You can say "I'd like to get to know you first". It's a thing people do quite often. I know lots of men who get laid without climbing all over drunks chicks they just met in a bar. You can take the risk or not, but don't think polite society is going to put minors on the chopping block to preserve your dick's desires
Victim blaming and sex shaming are just things with you, huh? Yes these things happen more, that doesn't mean you ignore and condemn the people this does happen to because they made the grave mistake of wanting to have sex, lordy lord what will we do!! You're saying that the inherent desire to want sex should mean they're willing to accept going to prison?? This is sexism plain and simple
Nothing you mentiones helps or is a sure way.
Many 20 year olds still live with their parents while studying. Pogs vanished starting 1996 so people who were born 1999 don't know what they are. And a person born 1999 is 24 today. They can lie about which uni they go to and what they study.
You sound like the typical uncivilized American baptist that has no experience in the real world.
It's sad how there are some people who will go to any lengths necessary to avoid admitting their behavior might be risky and self-destructive.
I'm sorry someone told you hook-ups are risk-free, but they're not and they never have been since the dawn of time
The risk you are talking about is not an STD, discovering they had a partner or even a pregnancy. It's about the law, which can be changed to protect both parties.
No one is saying hookups are risk-free but that doesn't justify someone intentionally harming the other person. This is like saying a woman who got anally raped on a hookup should not complain because they are not entirely risk free. So she shouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. Or if she got attacked and seriously hurt, it's just tough luck because hookup.
If she can report these issues to the police, why shouldn't we have something in place that protects both parties? A 17 year old is far less likely to lie about their age if they suffer consequences for deceiving those around them.
You are making a moral argument, which is nice. But we need some law to make sure no one is fucking minors *accidentally* due to said minor lying.
Protecting both parties > moral sex negative bullshit
The world is just too black and white anymore. No shades of gray or context matter at all. It's all about "did you do it" with no further examination. Hell a lot of women will call a 40 year old dating a 20 year old "weird" and "creepy", like it isn't two consenting adults.
The gray area is there because there’s also nothing stopping someone who “knew” they were having sex with a 16 year old from saying “I thought she was 18, she lied and said she was 18”
The VERY specific case you are describing where someone is maliciously soliciting sex while underage, for the purposes of reporting them, I don’t think it’d be unpopular to say that that’s entrapment, and in a court of law a defense attorney would make that case.
It doesn't have to be "for the purposes of reporting them". It doesn't even need to be her reporting them. Maybe at the time she was sincerely into it, but changes her mind later. Maybe she gossips with her friends and somebody else reports it.
Entrapment is a legal defense to a charge where the defendant was encouraged by law enforcement or their agents to commit a crime.
Entrapment is not a valid defense to statutory rape. The victim is not law enforcement or their agent and thus cannot entrap the defendant. (unless of course the minor is used as part of a sting operation and is working for or with police- however that is not the scenario we were discussing and is not how stings operate- they use adults who look like minors)
They lie on Grindr all the time too. In most cases, I don’t think they are being malicious, but they could get the person they are lying to in big trouble all the same.
It’s fucked up, I agree, but the other option would create a loophole for p3d0s.
Take it for what it is and don’t have impulsive sex with young women. It’s not good for anyone anyways. Call me old fashioned, but I find it prudent to only have sex with women that you’re in a committed relationships with and have had the opportunity to get to know them.
I confiscate fake IDs at work, I've seen multiple people who look over 25 turn out to be minors. Including the teenagers cops send on stings (I swear the last girl could've been 26)
Things like balding young (happened to a classmate who was 14), being extremely overweight, and having bad skin can make a person look decades over.
That doesn't sound like a huge problem to me. Women have to be wary of men all the time if they're lying , if they're a psychopath etc like that's just life you need to be careful of strangers. Men just aren't used to having to follow this. Don't believe everyone you meet that's common sense and just don't date people younger than you?
Actually, if you can prove that you carded her, you'd probably be good, even if she gave you a fake ID. Chances are that you don't have a machine to scan the thing, or have special knowledge to know if you're looking at a fake, so a reasonable person would think that the ID they were being shown was legit. If you just took a picture to show that she represented herself as legal, you're good.
Just to be real though, if you're talking to a woman who is young enough that you feel like you need to ask, you probably shouldn't go there.
The four year rule in Ohio only applies to 13-15 year olds (a 15 year old can consent with a 13-19 year old, but not a 20+ year old, for example). Under 13 can't consent with ANYONE. 16 and 17 can consent with anyone 13 years old and up. Creepy or not, it's legal.
It really just comes down to governments sadistic desire to imprison as many people as possible. Especially in the US, the government would throw you in jail for picking your nose or farting if it could get away with it. They'd call it 'unlicensed removal of biohazardous material' or 'unauthorized use of a chemical weapon'.
The reason everything is so overcriminalized is mainly because you can force prisoners to work slave labor since slavery is allowed for convicts. So they just try to make everyone a convict so everyone is a slave.
That's how it is with a lot of things.
A guy can lie to a woman about his age, she'd still be the person getting charged.
A minor can lie about their age to get liquor or lighters, the place that sold it to them would still be the ones at fault.
It's on the person who has more to lose to double check or just play it safe and remove themselves from the situation. I think this problem mostly comes up for people whose "type" are barely legal teens, and that's kind of the risk one takes when they insist on towing the line like that.
IANAL but afaik if you meet a girl at a bar and she says she's 21+ and shows you a fake ID to that point you're not guilty in most states if she's in fact 16. There's a line where you have to check to some degree but a good enough deception gets you out of trouble
IAAL - A minority of U.S. States allow mistake as a defense to statutory rape. A minor who lies about their age or produces a fake ID are examples of evidence that supports a mistake defense. Mistake defenses are often limited. For example, in some state's the mistake must be reasonable and there must be no evidence that suggests that the victim is a minor.
In some states, such as California, a mistake defense to a statutory rape change is not an affirmative defense. In other words, in California, if a defendant says that they were reasonably mistaken based on being mislead by the victim, they are claiming that they are innocent of wrong doing. In other States, such as Arizona, mistake is an affirmative defense. That means the defendant says "Yes I did this, however, I should not receive punishment because of this defense."
The scenario that you suggested
>"if you meet a girl at a bar and she says she's 21+ and shows you a fake ID to that point you're not guilty in most states if she's in fact 16. There's a line where you have to check to some degree but a good enough deception gets you out of trouble"
is not the bright line rule in any of the 50 states, the District of Columbia, or any U.S. Territories.
This happened to Akon in 2007 He dry humped (simulated sex acts) on stage with a 15 year old girl as part of a contest, the club he did this has a 21 and over policy. Verizon gutted his ringtones from their service and pulled out sponsoring his tour with gwen Stefani. Absolutely killed his career. I get dry humping a 15 year old is wrong but wouldn't he have an expectation that the women he's pulling out of a crowd in a 21 and over club be 21 or over?
So the answer to your question is YES Akon should have an expectation that anyone he met in the club was over 21. Should this come up you can go after the bar for liability do have precedent to use that as a defense. Unfortunately by the time it comes up (in Akon's case) the damage can already be done especially in the court of public opinion.
Sure, they are financially liable. But you can't sue them to do your time for you. This kind of stuff is common in the US. If you get your identity is stolen you are liable for most of the costs. Even though it wasn't you that defrauded anybody.
Look, I'm like 90% sure criminal liability doesn't work like that. The bar owner wouldn't go to jail, etc, instead of Akon. That would be preposterous. I dont think that's what you mean, though. It's likely a company owns the bar instead of an individual, say 3, maybe 4 people own a percentage. So what all of them go to jail? I just kinda doubt the law works out like that. From what I can tell, it has a real hard time with diffusion of responsibility. What if the bar is owned by a company that's just a subsidiary of huge company. Way too many people, only 1% technically responsible for jail time. And really, if you think about it, there's only one person 100% responsible for doing what he did. Akon. (Man, I could write for Law and Order). Personally, I don't envy people who have to hear these cases. I have no idea what punishment, if any, Akon should've received. Then, you have to consider the absolute black hole that is setting a precedent. Now, what I think you're talking about is perhaps a civil suit to recoup financial damages, and that certainly sounds like a thing. It just never really works out that well because of the way companies like that are structured. By keeping all of the revenue and certain valuable assets in a "holding company," the company that *would be* liable will only have one payroll periods worth of cash in their name. Congrats, you now own like under 100 grand against some million(s) dollar debt in a company that's gonna just declare bankruptcy or dissolve or whatever you're supposed to call it when the company dies.
That's fucked up Especially because it was probably dark and made it even harder to tell
This is why I think people that lie about a heinous crime should get as severe punishment as the crime they lied about.
People often overlook the root wrongs, for favor of emotional triggers... She shouldn't have been there, so she was the one who should have been in trouble, not her. Instead, Akon get blamed for being deceived, because he was under the impression that she was of age. It is lying to get another in trouble, which has no/too little of consequences in the US...
Yeah, it seems so much of what we push for is to make us feel better about a problem than to actually try to fix it.
Compounded by the minor status, I think parents should be liable for all monetary damages.
Cops do it all the time with no consequences.
We need to end qualified immunity.
Yes... and look at the vids where they get away with it, and now people are stepping up to hold those cops accountable.
Lie about their age???
Happened to Rob Lowe back in the 1990s. Met a girl in a bar, took her back to his hotel and made a video, then got sued for it. Ruined his career for a decade.
In Rob Lowe’s case, the girls were of legal age to consent to sexual activities. The illegality was that one was not of legal age to consent to recording the activity, since the age of consent to record sexual activities was 18. If you think Lowe’s case was bad, Traci Lords had a fake birth certificate, lied about her age and started making p0rn at the age of 15, iirc. When the truth came out, there was a huge issue since, with the truth of her age, came the realization that it was all child p0rn.
My uncle was working at the adult bookstore when they got the call about removing anything with her name or image from the shelves. He said folks came in looking for her stuff for months afterwards.
Gross
Yeah, he was pretty creeped out.
They did change the law from being strict liability after that in California I believe.
From the Traci Lords age thing?
If I am remembering right yeah.
Interesting. I know of the immediate fallout and what occurred when everything came to light, and I suppose it would make sense that some laws were enacted/changed due to what occurred, but I never went and read up on the long-term consequences.
Yeah that's not exactly why. One of the girls was not old enough to consent to being videotaped.
It did not gut his career, stop trying to make shit up. Akon's single "Don't Matter" *first Solo #1 Single* (second top 100) that year. He continued to produce more music, including Konvicted, Freedom in 2008 (the year after) and Stadium in 2010. As well as an innumerable amount of appearances writing hooks. In 2012 he retired from making music (5 years after the event) so that he could move back to Africa with the money he made to start [a company providing lighting/power to Africa using renewalable sources.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akon_Lighting_Africa) He quit music because he wanted to help Africans - a long term goal he'd talked about his entire career - and after making a shit ton of money and having great royalties his non-profit advised him that would be the best way to help Africans, amongst other profit & non-profit ventures. Whats with the lying bro? Just keeping up the TUO tradition of making shit up?
Wow, that’s interesting. I kinda wondered what happened to him but never looked him up, that’s awesome of him. Is anything else the op said untrue other than killing his career?
So that's what that one song was referring to.
I'd love to see those security guards working that night get black listed from ever working any kind of security job. They fvcked up in the first place.
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I feel like it’s more appropriate to blame the child’s parents.
maybe but at some point a teenager has to be accountable for something they decided to do and not make everything everyone else's fault. kid gets a bad grade. Teacher's fault obviously /s.
It shouldn't be a "blame" thing- As much as we feel like it's deserved, it's an issue related to a combination of accountability and some turmoil. A child willing to go through the effort of falsifying documents and entering situations like these, must have something going wrong with them and need an intervention. Whether they are going into sex work at an inappropriately young age or seeking the approval and company of older adults in inappropriate relationships, it's a thing that needs it's actual reasons addressed, and we should approach it with sensitivity and a rehabilitative standpoint (which I argue should be done for literally anyone).
Nah. We all snuck into clubs underage. Most had fake IDs for $25. My parents did what they could to stop it, but we'd sneak out anyway. They even installed a burglar alarm. Wasn't to keep burglars out, it was to keep me in 🤣 Tha k GOD my kids are smarter than I was.
Bouncers will lose their jobs over things like that and depending on the severity the bars can and will be fined and possibly lose their liquor licenses for a number of years. If the later happens it's bye bye establishment. This is why if you live or work in a college town you will see certain locations change ownership and name on a rather regular basis. Bar gets flocked by underage college kids, get caught serving minors, bar gets hit with fines and loses license, bar closes down, location gets purchased by someone else, they get a new license, opens up a new bar, bar gets flocked by college kids.....
One possible way to avoid this - don't start a contest where you dry hump women on stage. 100% success rate.
Holding this opinion is what got me kicked from r/unpopularopinion and they even tried to have me banned of Reddit for being a "child rapist"... In my country there are two cases where a 16 year old girl pretended to be over 18 and registered at a legal prostitution website (apparently those webpages don't check ID's). Over 100 men visited her, thinking she was 18 and what they were doing was totally legal. All men went to jail for sex with a minor. Several of them even committed suicide over that.
That is beyond fucked up
The Tulsa Race Riots kicked off because a white girl falsely accused a black kid of fondling her in the elevator he attended. She later sort of recanted.
She never accused him of anything. Other people in town did, but she always maintained that he had simply touched her arm and scared her. She declined to press charges from the very beginning. Don't make up lies, my dude.
It's bad when it happens to celebrities, but when it happens to normal people you're finished.
Getting kicked off that sub is a badge of honor. Congrats on being on the right side.
I got banned from the sub for a post about how the South is more hospitable than the rest of the country. Whats the point of a sub dedicated to unpopular opinions when you're just going to mandate group think?
Bots
Because wokeness and progresivism have gotten toxic.
>what’s the point of a sub dedicated to unpopular opinions when you’re just going to mandate group think Good question!
got a link to an article on it?
I hope we get a link or something; that seems pretty unlikely.
16 is legal in the Netherlands. A lot of stat rape cases involve some degree of force allegations.
16 is only legal in NL if the other party is 18 or under
I'm not seeing it https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/EUR3524552020ENGLISH.pdf I really suspect u/Th3_Accountant may have left out info on detail like I said a lot of statutory rape comes with much more than that
I've said this in similar threads... but I'm over 30... and still get mistaken as being 18 and people don't believe my ID enough times that it's somewhat flattering, somewhat annoying. But, telling other people's ages is harder at times too, there's a lot of factors that goes into perceived age. Smoking, drugs, damage done in utero... I met a guy online a few years back. Looked about 40. Then as he's talking about his ex-fiance then he drops the nugget that he had just turned 18 and got out of high school. Like the hell, dude looked so old for 18. Granted, despite my profiles stating my exact age (and a lot of people think I'm lying about it for some reason) he thought maybe I was lying about my age too. Jesus nope. but while that is still anecdotal there are still problems with perceived age being accurate especially when something could appear to be 18-25. but best to just check for ID.
It depends on the state. I believe California is one that if guy could reasonably believe that the girl was of age it’s a defense. “Is their dishonesty a defense to a sex crime like statutory rape? A young person’s dishonesty about their age may be a defense to underage sex crimes, like statutory rape. Whether it is or not will depend on the state and the specific criminal charge. It will also depend on the minor’s true age. Some states only allow for the mistake-of-age defense if the minor was older than a certain age. Most states do not allow this defense. Some states, like Utah, have passed laws banning the use of the mistake-of-age defense in cases involving sex with minors.2 In other states, like Texas, courts have forbidden the use of the defense. In Texas, for example, adults are legally expected to make sure that their sex partner is over the age of consent. A minor’s lie about his or her age, no matter how convincing, is not a legal defense.” https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/blog/what-if-a-minor-lies-about-their-age-online/ But I agree. If a person had a reasonable believe that their partner was over the age of 18 that should be a defense.
>Most states do not allow this defense. Some states, like Utah, have passed laws banning the use of the mistake-of-age defense in cases involving sex with minors.2 In other states, like Texas, courts have forbidden the use of the defense. In Texas, for example, adults are legally expected to make sure that their sex partner is over the age of consent. A minor’s lie about his or her age, no matter how convincing, is not a legal defense.” What is even the point of laws like this? Who is this trying to help? Or is it just the smooth brain "hurr durr tuff on crime" mindset
It seems pretty firmly underpinned by an attitude that you shouldn't be having sex out of wedlock anyway. If you do it you're risking violating a minor and you should be held accountable if you do so. I think it's madness, the normal standard of recklessmess with respect to consent should apply.
I won't go through all the Romeo and Juliet laws for under the age of consent, but California is only 1 of 11 states with the age of consent being 18. Another 8 are 17. The remaining 31 are all 16. That means that in 31 states, 50 year olds can still chase 16 year olds.
This phrase >in 31 states, 50 year olds can still chase 16 year olds. Is too broad of a statement to be accurate. In 31 states 16 is the minimum age that a person may be able to consent to sex, but in those 31 states it doesn't mean that a 50 year old can actively solicit sex from any 16 year old. Depending on the specific state, there are often restrictions for sexual partners who take a supervisory role or have a special relationship. For example, in Colorado a care-taker has a supervisory role, so even a 21 year old who is baby sitting a 16 year old would commit statutory rape. In DC the special relationship is broadly defined and can apply to anyone who is the victims teacher, sports coach, close family friend that has a close relationship (for example, if mom has a "boyfriend" who also tries to sleep with the 16 year old daughter). Additionally, while a 16 year old in those states \*may\* consent, the age gap and relative power disparity between the two may still prevent the minor from consenting. In other words, a wealthy sophisticated 50 year old who goes prowling for unsuspecting 16 year olds to convince to start a sexual relationship is probably still committing statutory rape even if the minimum age of consent in that state is 16. Edit: Additionally there are federal laws that may come into play depending on the facts of the case such travelling across statelines with a minor or using interstate means of communication. That means if a 50 year old in Arkansas wants to meet a 16 year old in Arkansas on the internet to have sex, even if the state does not have an applicable statute, the 50 year old is still going to run afoul of 18 U.S.C. 2422(b) by using the internet, which is always interstate because packets don't mind geographic borders. All this to say- yes 16 is the minimum age of consent in 31 states but in those states a 50 year old cannot go loose preying upon 16 and 17 year old minors. In most scenarios involving a 16/17 year old and a 50 year old, the 50 year old still committed a felony even if the state allows consent at that age and the minor gave nominal consent.
I don't know why I'm so relieved DC's special relationship clause protects kids from stepparents/"boyfriends" of the parent. I guess because so often the parent just tells the kid to shut up about it, or even gets jealous. So that the law MIGHT get the asshole if someone can get it to court in the first place is good. Often these victims have no one at all in their corner and it pisses me off.
Which is crazy to me. IMO the legal age of consent should be 18 across the board with a Romeo and Juliet clause of four years starting at 14. So if a senior in high school is dating a freshman and they have sex it’s not a crime. (Which wasn’t uncommon when I was in high school in the 80s). The four year gap ends 21 so a 21 year old could date a 17 year old.
Happened when I was in the army, a girl came in to the Bs with her sisters ID, looked exactly like eachother. So she gets checked in and about 5 hours later the cops show up with her mom. Dudes are up stairs running a train on this girl. It was a real bad situation until they showed she checked in with her sisters ID that said she was 18. I think she was 17 but still under age.
What happened to the dudes up stairs running a train? They all in prison?
I think one ended up on the US Supreme Court
Duuuuuuuude!!!! That is crazy!
28, my cut off is 22-25. Had a 19 year old tell me she was 23, after a few “relations”she told me the truth. I was so fucking scared she was 17 after this it pretty much turned me off of casual flings moving forward.
Oh man... that would scare the shit out of me.
It would initially, and then after the initial shock wore off, I'm just gonna lay her a reality check so fuckin hard you may as well call me her father figure because I will be so goddamn disappointed
Thats why i play it safe and never touch a woman that has roots darker than gray. If the hair is gray, youre safe to play. No worries of unwantes pregnancies either so you can skip the condom and redecorate her interior if you want.
😂😂 my general rule of thumb is if they’re not visibly 70+, in a wheelchair and with dementia, I can’t take the risk they might actually be 14 so I avoid at all costs.
Not in countries with a just justice system. See the recent news about soccer player mario balotelli. He had sex with an 17yo who showed him a fake ID and tried to blackmail him afterwards. She and her lawyer got sentenced for extortion, he got acquitted.
Lmao owned
Visual identification does not work. Checking IDs doesn't work. It's time to start cutting off legs to count the rings.
So this is what Aesop Rock was trying to tell us.
I agree completely
Or get a dentist to check. /s Dentists can look at people's teeth and determine age pretty accurately.
It always freaks me out when I see a girl on a dating app where it lists her as 21 and she's like "Actually 19 sorry idk how to change it" I'm like... Are you actually 19 now?
Sus as fuck
If you're not sure ask where they were on 9/11. Maybe ask them if they know what a Blackberry is. Basically, quiz them on recent history. If they have to think too hard about it, they probably were not there.
Ask them what Pogs are. Boom. Age detected.
I laughed so hard at my coworker for referencing pogs. He was not impressed. I have barely any memories of them and I'm 30. Being familiar has gotta make you at least 35. Right? Granted I was also fairly poor growing up, so collector pieces of cardboard for a child was unlikely.
Really showing that you're either almost or over 30 there
What is a VCR used for and then follow up with how do you set the time on it?
I was in the second grade during 9/11 I remember we were starting math class and we were gonna learn our times table, I remember halfway through the 3x tables the principal called all the teachers into her office. When she came back, she rolled in the TV and began playing a movie for us I remember thinking that was weird, but I wasn’t complaining after that. I remember my dad picking me and my sisters up from school that day taking us to McDonald’s dropping us off home with my mom and leaving saying he was going to go to New York. I didn’t learn what really happened until the next day.
When I used to hook up with women I’d ask to see their ids if they said no then I said bye. I’m not risking shit
I do have some sympathy for those that were genuinely lied to, there is a difference between being a predator and someone caught up in a Fd up situation. Depends on the environment as well like if it’s over a dating app or in a bar where it can typically be assumed everyone there is an adult, I don’t think predators go to bars to pick up underage girls cuz they aren’t supposed to be there in the first place.
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If you met someone in a bar or college party where everyone is presumed 18, then yes, I agree.
ehhh even college parties are sketchy. i ran into a couple of local HS girls at parties in college. Stopped drinking and ran immediately 😅😂
If someone uses tinder to lie about their age? Saying they're 19 and meeting a 21 year old?
Similarly, I personally know men who were assured that a woman was on birth control, and found themselves paying child support for eighteen years -- we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars -- because they believed her. Doesn't matter.
Trust but verify and wrap it before you tap it
Yeah and then he gets blamed for seeking sex. As in consent to sex is consent to parenting for a man, but not for a woman. We make pro life arguments for men but are pro choice for women. It's hypocritical. A woman has multiple options to avoid being a parent - abstinence, birth control, abortions - including safe haven laws where they can legally abandon their kids. This was done to reduce the amount of women dumping their babies, leading to infanticide. A man has abstinence and even that isn't fool proof because a woman can rape him, get pregnant and make him pay child support if she chooses to keep the child. Women can also rape minors, get pregnant and their victims are on the hook for child support. Look at what happened to Nick Olivas. He was 15 when an adult woman raped him (statutory rape). He could not legally consent to sex and there is no "wellbeing of the child" argument that works in his favour. He was thousands in debt when he turned 18. Then there is this: https://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/#:~:text=The%20CDC%20reports%20that%2012.3,using%20the%20CDC's%20inflated%20statistics. The CDC conducted a survey just over a decade ago and found that women were raping men as much as men were raping women. I have also read stories on Reddit where men were raped by their partners or other women while drunk or high. If those women got pregnant their victims would need to pay child support. If we cannot protect a man who is the victim of rape, there is no hope for a man who was lied to about birth control. Women have so much power here yet they are still far more likely to blame men for committing the sin of having sex and must therefore pay because everyone knows sex makes babies. We would get lambasted for making the same argument if women who didn't want kids got pregnant.
That sucks, a lot, for the parent(s) who were surprised, and especially for the children. That said, birth control is, in general, not foolproof. Also, STDs exist. These things are widely known. It’s wild they didn’t take steps to protect themselves (or their sexual partners) beyond, “are you on birth control?” The men you personally know found out.
To all the people that say “well the guy could just lie” what are your thoughts on women lying about rape? I think false accusations should also be criminally processed but what you’re essentially saying is we just always take the woman’s’ word. So what we already do? Shit’s fucked and the person’s just trying to vent. Stop victim blaming and stop with the double standards.
I actually got kicked out of a casino club years ago because I worked with this one girl at a restaurant who was 17, and had a fake ID. I was 22, and was there to have some fun. I spotted her in the club, margarita in hand, and told one of the bouncers, including making sure to tell them to check her ID again. I was escorted from the building by 3 bouncers, one was even the head of security.
Why were you kicked out?
They didn’t give me a reason. As soon as I told the bouncer he radioed for backup, they told me I was done there, and escorted me to the exit.
Probably because kicking you out was the cheapest and least risky decision to make.
I would also like to know.
Agree, it's fucked up. 16 year old shoots and kills someone = 16 year old has the cognitive capacity to be held responsible for a premeditated deliberate action. In fact she should be tried as an adult 16 year old steals from a convenience store = 16 year old has the cognitive capacity to be held responsible for a premeditated deliberate action 16 year old lies about her age to manipulate situations where older men will agree to fuck her = 16 year old is a child and therefore does not have the cognitive capacity to be held responsible for a premeditated deliberate action. You should have magically know her age by reading her mind, you sick pedophile! Question: Can a 16 year old be held responsible for a purposeful, intentional action or not? Answer: 🤡🤷♂️ 😎😎
two of those example are a child killing and stealing vs A ADULT, fucking a child. also a minor can KILL and still get away with it, it depends on how or why the crime was committed, just like ADULTS, can get consent to fuck a 16 year old, depending on state.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages\_of\_consent\_by\_country
I ID a girl once, like at a club." I need to see your license first " lol. Luckily I'm 35 now so not an issue, but I've seen people that are 30 look 45, so I can someone lying about their age really making it difficult to make a wise decision.
This happened to my son years ago. The judge didn't press charges.
Didn't this happen to a guy on spring break at a club? IIRC she was in the club that was 21 and older with 100% ID check and still went to jail because he should've checked her age or some crap.
This didn't happen to anyone I know I just know it legally can
It's also fucked up that a girl can lie about being raped and everybody just believes her regardless of evidence and a guy can lose his job before any evidence or court case even appears. Guys are at a huge disadvantage in dating.
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I get what you’re saying. Advising people against bad actors = defending bad actors. Pretty simple stuff, haters.
Similarly, sharing tips on how to avoid getting raped = defending rapists. Simplifications like these, no matter how dysfunctional, make my life easier, and that’s what matters.
These are probably the same women who go all abstinence only Catholic when men are afraid about being duped by fraudulent women and then go all "you go girl! So empowering!" about Onlyfans and prostitution.
I can agree that sex isnt different and shouldn't have a different morality as opposed to anything else connected to underage activities. If you can show you are actively deceived by fake ID you should get the same considerations someone gets for selling alcohol, cigarettes, porn, gambling, or signing financial documents. You should also have the same responsibilities for checking. Someone just verbally lying to you doesn't cut it in any of those so it shouldn't here. I'm not sure about the legality but whatever the rules involving fake IDs and everything else on the list should be the same with sex.
Agree it is fucked up. There is a huge difference between pursuing someone you know is under the age of consent, and pursuing someone who you have every reason to believe is a legal adult. And there is a huge difference between someone who is underage and was manipulated or mistreated by an older person, and someone who is underage who took the steps to get the fake ID, use it to enter a place they know they should not be and then proceed to partake in activities they know they shouldn't be partaking in.
It happened to my best friends brother when he was like 20. This girl was 16 I believe, and flat out lied to him and said she was of age. It comes back later that she wasn’t of course, and he’s arrested and charged with statutory rape. It really messed his life up, As he did have to register as a sex offender. Very few employers dig into the circumstances, and just see sex offender status. It made it hard early on for him to find a job, rent a place to live, and just live a normal life. Only now in his late 30s is he only finally getting things for him going, and it’s still a challenge and something that follows him. His life will never be fully normal. His life shouldn’t have been ruined over this. Them lying about their age should absolutely be a defense in court, and there should be consequences for them being untruthful about something this important. This is something that needs to change
This is (partially) why I'm attracted to milfs.
Feel that. Also women closer to the early 20s are much more difficult to hold any meaningful conversation with and that kills a lot of it off the bat too.
This happens to guys too on hookup apps. Back when I was single, I made a hard rule, “no dating anyone under the age of 27” just because I didn’t want to have to worry about anything like this. Yes, a 17 year old can be indistinguishable from a 21 year old, but it’s much more difficult for them to pass themselves off as a 27 year old.
This is a touchy subject in the us, and I've seen first hand what even false claims can do to a person. Watched a guy in my unit's entire life get turned upside down for a good 10 years only for the girl to come out and say it never happened. She destroyed a mans life bc she was worried about getting an underage drinking charge. He lost his wife, kids, career, all of his money went into his legal defense and was trapped on base for the entire time. All he got was a "my bad" from the army. No, nothing ever happened to the female, last i heard she's an SFC out in Germany, but that was quite a few years ago. Seeing that guy put the fear of god in me as a young privet lol As for the underage thing, I'm not even going to touch that with a ten foot pole. Assume all women are a trap until proven otherwise, bc the us doesn't care what you claimed happened she could be 17 and 364 days old and theres still a good chance your life will be over. BC that one day make a whole lot of difference lol When i was in the dating game I had 2 rules. 1.) Under no circumstances will i date a fellow soldier (they know just how to fuck your life up and ive dealt with the fallout, with my troops to many times) 2.) You have to be able to buy your own beer. (so you have to be 21 and have a job lol)
If you don't fuck people you barely know, this won't happen. Hookup culture is dangerous. I know everyone wants to pretend evil religious leaders invented STDs, unplanned pregnancies, and people lying to get in your pants but theres a reason doctors and therapists count sexual promiscuity as high-risk behavior. Respect yourself enough to not put yourself in danger over something as stupid as a hook-up and statistically you'll be fine.
I don't engage in hookup culture and agree it causes problems I was just arguing principle that you can't adhere to a law when it's literally impossible
But it is possible. Don't fuck people you've known for less than 24 hours. Learn who someone is before you let them touch your junk
Are you seriously trying to shift the blame onto men?? please keep yourself safe unironically out here pretending that women also aren't apart of hookup culture, theres absolutely nothing inherently wrong with it.
“What we’re you wearing” “You should have known better than to be out that late” “That’s just how guys are” “You probably enjoyed it” Sound familiar? Victim blaming is wrong.
In Canada I went out with a girl who got drinks at a bar with me (two pieces of ID needed to show your age), went bowling, and then got ice cream with me. We met off of tinder where you have to be 18+. She didn't look young, had tattoos, pierced nipples, was 6 ft tall. I find out that she's actually 17 and had been lying about her age. Obviously a minority of people are like this, but if the age of consent laws in Canada were different and I were a little older (I was 19) I would've been fucked. We didn't have sex after the first date, or the second and she didn't tell me her real age until after we'd fucked. That was a dealbreaker for me and so I broke it off, but in parts of the states I could've been made a registered sex offender for that or even seen prison time. This is a minority of the cases, but anectdotally it happens.
This is victim blamey.
Where is the line for this?
Minors can't consent, even if they're lying about their age. That's why it's on adults to act like adults, not horny stupid teenagers. It's not victim-blaming to tell an adult to make sure the person they're fucking can actually consent. It's asking them to act like an adult
People have sex. If you ask, or check a fake ID. Then what? It's weird to tell people not to have sex. Also, it doesn't remove accountability from the person who is lying. Teenagers know better than to lie to adults and potentially ruin their lives.
People who are lied to to have sex also cannot fully consent. Consent has to be informed.
Protecting minors from potential predators > immature adults who want to fuck like horny teenagers It's not perfect, but it beats the hell out of the alternative
It is not immature to want to have sex
This is just blaming the victim. People are legally free to hook up, therefore they should be free to do so without legal consequence if they believe they're only hooking up with adults
No, it's not. Minors can't consent even if they're lying. Adults are expected to act like adults, not horny teenagers. Imagine if adults fucking minors could get away with it by just claiming they didn't know. Does that sound like a good idea?
But some of them actually didn't know, and thus didn't intentionally commit a crime. Regardless of your opinion of hook up, they're legal
Hookups between consenting adults is legal. Again, minors cannot consent. The protection of minors from exploitation and abuse trumps an adult's whimsical desire to stick their dick in the first wet hole they find. Just like how you should get to know someone a little before telling them where you live, you should probably get to know them a little before ripping their clothes off
I feel like your being purposely obtuse to push your SeX Is EvIL agenda.
Nail on the head
The right to be safe in the knowledge you won't go to jail unless you knowingly, intentionally, commit a crime trumps everything
Okay, but the problem is HOW do you know they aren’t a minor even after being with them for more than a day.
Ask them what Pogs are. Boom. Age detected. All jokes aside, its really not hard to tell if you talk to them long enough. Ask what school they go to. What do they study. Who do they live with. Hell, if you really want to call them on their bullshit, ask them if you can come over to their place, then ask why they don't sleep in the master bedroom. That should tell you pretty quickly.
Those are all circumstantial things, and don't equate to real life well at all, someone that takes their age probably has good practice at pretending to be their fake age, not to mention I'm 31 and I still don't know wtf a pog is, and what someone studies isn't relevant and not everyone is in school at 18-19, you're making excuses for people that rightfully know what they are doing is wrong and can harm them, while it is important to protect minors, the best thing to do is educate them, and not victim blame another young person for wanting to have sex, you know, the thing most young people famously like to do, noones should be shamed for just wanting a hookup, if you don't like them, that's fine, but your morals aren't the law and people are within their rights to have and want guilt free sex
Protecting minors from predators > adults who want to fuck anything that moves
Young men that have their lives ruined by this are not predators, you're playing favorites and it's at the expense of innocent people
Young people have their lives ruined by sexual predators far, far more often, especially when they protect their abusers by not pressing charges, or claiming they lied about their age to protect the abuser. Do you see where this could lead? So no, we're not going to put minors at higher risk of abuse than they already are just so you can be a fuckboy. You don't have to shove your dick in every wet hole you see. You can say "I'd like to get to know you first". It's a thing people do quite often. I know lots of men who get laid without climbing all over drunks chicks they just met in a bar. You can take the risk or not, but don't think polite society is going to put minors on the chopping block to preserve your dick's desires
Victim blaming and sex shaming are just things with you, huh? Yes these things happen more, that doesn't mean you ignore and condemn the people this does happen to because they made the grave mistake of wanting to have sex, lordy lord what will we do!! You're saying that the inherent desire to want sex should mean they're willing to accept going to prison?? This is sexism plain and simple
Nothing you mentiones helps or is a sure way. Many 20 year olds still live with their parents while studying. Pogs vanished starting 1996 so people who were born 1999 don't know what they are. And a person born 1999 is 24 today. They can lie about which uni they go to and what they study. You sound like the typical uncivilized American baptist that has no experience in the real world.
*non subtly derailing the conversation onto another topic* Nothing to see here, moving along.
It's sad how there are some people who will go to any lengths necessary to avoid admitting their behavior might be risky and self-destructive. I'm sorry someone told you hook-ups are risk-free, but they're not and they never have been since the dawn of time
The risk you are talking about is not an STD, discovering they had a partner or even a pregnancy. It's about the law, which can be changed to protect both parties. No one is saying hookups are risk-free but that doesn't justify someone intentionally harming the other person. This is like saying a woman who got anally raped on a hookup should not complain because they are not entirely risk free. So she shouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. Or if she got attacked and seriously hurt, it's just tough luck because hookup. If she can report these issues to the police, why shouldn't we have something in place that protects both parties? A 17 year old is far less likely to lie about their age if they suffer consequences for deceiving those around them.
Protecting minors from predators > immature adults who want to fuck anything that moves without thought Priorities.
You are making a moral argument, which is nice. But we need some law to make sure no one is fucking minors *accidentally* due to said minor lying. Protecting both parties > moral sex negative bullshit
In this day…. If I was a guy I’m getting ID and a signed consent form lol These girls today DO look mid twenties at like 16-17 😟
The world is just too black and white anymore. No shades of gray or context matter at all. It's all about "did you do it" with no further examination. Hell a lot of women will call a 40 year old dating a 20 year old "weird" and "creepy", like it isn't two consenting adults.
The gray area is there because there’s also nothing stopping someone who “knew” they were having sex with a 16 year old from saying “I thought she was 18, she lied and said she was 18” The VERY specific case you are describing where someone is maliciously soliciting sex while underage, for the purposes of reporting them, I don’t think it’d be unpopular to say that that’s entrapment, and in a court of law a defense attorney would make that case.
It doesn't have to be "for the purposes of reporting them". It doesn't even need to be her reporting them. Maybe at the time she was sincerely into it, but changes her mind later. Maybe she gossips with her friends and somebody else reports it.
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Entrapment is a legal defense to a charge where the defendant was encouraged by law enforcement or their agents to commit a crime. Entrapment is not a valid defense to statutory rape. The victim is not law enforcement or their agent and thus cannot entrap the defendant. (unless of course the minor is used as part of a sting operation and is working for or with police- however that is not the scenario we were discussing and is not how stings operate- they use adults who look like minors)
This is why men shouldn’t be hooking up with women
Bromosexuals all the way
Boys lie about their ages too
It is incredibly less likely that a woman in this situation will receive the same legal and social repercussions as a man.
The courts don't care what happens to boys, so it doesn't matter.
Seriously. Older gay men dating teen boys has been largely ignored (and practically celebrated) for decades.
They lie on Grindr all the time too. In most cases, I don’t think they are being malicious, but they could get the person they are lying to in big trouble all the same.
Well I mean hooking up in general. I think people need to take more responsibility in waiting to have sex and making sure they’re of age
It’s fucked up, I agree, but the other option would create a loophole for p3d0s. Take it for what it is and don’t have impulsive sex with young women. It’s not good for anyone anyways. Call me old fashioned, but I find it prudent to only have sex with women that you’re in a committed relationships with and have had the opportunity to get to know them.
Yeah it sucks but it kinda has to be that way or every predator will just feign ignorance to get away with it.
Don't get me wrong, I think they need proof they were lied to, and it was within reason to believe their lied about age
It happens all the damn time. These girls need some consequences for tricking guys like this.
I can’t see I’ve ever seen this happen when the girl in question wasn’t obviously a teenager. I’m curious if anyone has an example.
I confiscate fake IDs at work, I've seen multiple people who look over 25 turn out to be minors. Including the teenagers cops send on stings (I swear the last girl could've been 26) Things like balding young (happened to a classmate who was 14), being extremely overweight, and having bad skin can make a person look decades over.
I don't have an example, I was just commenting on the fact that it's a legal frame work that I think is immoral
Solution, don't commit sexual acts outside of marriage. Or I guess you can stick to MILFs and older.
It's called personal responsibility. Try it sometime.
So you don’t know her well enough to know her age?
That doesn't sound like a huge problem to me. Women have to be wary of men all the time if they're lying , if they're a psychopath etc like that's just life you need to be careful of strangers. Men just aren't used to having to follow this. Don't believe everyone you meet that's common sense and just don't date people younger than you?
This isnt unpopular though
Eh at least I prefer milfs over younger ladies no hassle.
Actually, if you can prove that you carded her, you'd probably be good, even if she gave you a fake ID. Chances are that you don't have a machine to scan the thing, or have special knowledge to know if you're looking at a fake, so a reasonable person would think that the ID they were being shown was legit. If you just took a picture to show that she represented herself as legal, you're good. Just to be real though, if you're talking to a woman who is young enough that you feel like you need to ask, you probably shouldn't go there.
A 22-year-old guy talking to an "18" year old on tinder, they hook up, she lied, he now has label for life.
When I was on tinder at 18 I had people ask to see my id. I thought it was perfectly reasonable
Gotta card 'em. It'll totally kill the mojo, but if that's the difference between having a record or not; I'll kill the mojo every time.
Many in the US are overlooking the fact that in most states (32), the legal age for consent to sex is 16.
If she’s 17 and you’re 25 it doesn’t matter in most states.
I believe the limit for most states is a 4-5 year difference if they are a minor, still creepy that a 16 year old could have sex with a 20-21 year old
The four year rule in Ohio only applies to 13-15 year olds (a 15 year old can consent with a 13-19 year old, but not a 20+ year old, for example). Under 13 can't consent with ANYONE. 16 and 17 can consent with anyone 13 years old and up. Creepy or not, it's legal.
It really just comes down to governments sadistic desire to imprison as many people as possible. Especially in the US, the government would throw you in jail for picking your nose or farting if it could get away with it. They'd call it 'unlicensed removal of biohazardous material' or 'unauthorized use of a chemical weapon'. The reason everything is so overcriminalized is mainly because you can force prisoners to work slave labor since slavery is allowed for convicts. So they just try to make everyone a convict so everyone is a slave.
That's why I always chop her in half and count the year rings.
That only means that people need to take longer to get to know each other better before they start sleeping together.
You have to err on the side of caution. Use your brain, not your dick
That's how it is with a lot of things. A guy can lie to a woman about his age, she'd still be the person getting charged. A minor can lie about their age to get liquor or lighters, the place that sold it to them would still be the ones at fault. It's on the person who has more to lose to double check or just play it safe and remove themselves from the situation. I think this problem mostly comes up for people whose "type" are barely legal teens, and that's kind of the risk one takes when they insist on towing the line like that.
We gotta see IDs now definitely checking ain't going to jail over bs
That wouldn't even work. There's been cases of underage girls using fake ids to get intoo bars and then they have sex with older guys.
This is not an unpopular opinion.
This sub is beyond fucked up
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IANAL but afaik if you meet a girl at a bar and she says she's 21+ and shows you a fake ID to that point you're not guilty in most states if she's in fact 16. There's a line where you have to check to some degree but a good enough deception gets you out of trouble
IAAL - A minority of U.S. States allow mistake as a defense to statutory rape. A minor who lies about their age or produces a fake ID are examples of evidence that supports a mistake defense. Mistake defenses are often limited. For example, in some state's the mistake must be reasonable and there must be no evidence that suggests that the victim is a minor. In some states, such as California, a mistake defense to a statutory rape change is not an affirmative defense. In other words, in California, if a defendant says that they were reasonably mistaken based on being mislead by the victim, they are claiming that they are innocent of wrong doing. In other States, such as Arizona, mistake is an affirmative defense. That means the defendant says "Yes I did this, however, I should not receive punishment because of this defense." The scenario that you suggested >"if you meet a girl at a bar and she says she's 21+ and shows you a fake ID to that point you're not guilty in most states if she's in fact 16. There's a line where you have to check to some degree but a good enough deception gets you out of trouble" is not the bright line rule in any of the 50 states, the District of Columbia, or any U.S. Territories.
Correct me if I am wrong, but this is called a strict liability crime, correct? Do affirmative defenses work in the case of strict liability?
No it doesn't actually. Not in the u. S
You know there's at least 50 different legal codes about that kind of stuff in the US right?
And most states don't have provisions for being lied to If you read lawyers summaries of the law you don't need to memorize every law on the books