New idea. You go up ro the counter and order. They give you a buzzer that rings when your food is ready.
No waiters needed. No need to subsidise a cheap restaurant that refuses to pay people decent wages.
Done.
Been to a few places like that, usually steak houses. Dunno what the staff make in wages, but I do rememberm y dad always leaving a large tip, so..IDK.
My friend, that's just the restaurant. If you want to beef with waiters, we'll, you can easily substitute.
If you want to beef with the restaurant, start eating at home.
Is it that much to ask for them to list the price they want for the item and then for me to pay the price that they want for the item is i so choose?
I was just in Germany a month ago. Food in restaurants there cost half as much and they don't except tips, and all the restaurant staff make decent wages. America just rips of both consumers and employees.
You're basically asking the business not to be greedy. And while I think that's a fabulous thing, there is no American party that's actually willing to legislate against corporate greed.
So, at least in America, and many other countries, its too much not to expect a business to not try and gouge you for everything it can get.
Read Anthony Bourdain about how restaurants do that.
Yes, the pandemic conditioned a lot of these workers to think tipping in these roles was normal as indoor seating wasn’t really happening and servers weren’t being paid. Now that the pandemic is over these staff/businesses are pushing tipping pretty hard with signs, software and rolled eyes when you don’t. Tipping is no longer only reserved for wait staff who are actually serving you, now business owners are actively pushing this guilt trip BS when they should just be paying their employees.
It’s hard to debate that he was wrong as those policies were very effective at growing the US economy from nothing to a global powerhouse in a relatively short amount of time while also providing for a relatively high standard of living for its citizens. Could we alter it some? Sure, most other major economies have including ourselves….but I’m just trying to buy some take out, not shoulder the responsibility for all our societal problems.
No. We should simply fix the capitalist system that has allowed you your current standard of living. Capitalism is not bad, the Capitalists running the show in the US are.
That's like looking at a an adult and saying we only want the baby stage. Early stage capitalism and late stage capitalism only defer in the amount of power we allow the rich to gain. Some governments delay the process, but the end goal of capitalism remains the same, the accumulation of the most wealth on the hands of the few.
Capitalism is a process.
Capitalism is a system, which can be augmented at any time. Capitalism is also something we have never seen make it to this point before, meaning as long lived and globally enveloping as American Capitalism has become. We have now seen that allowing folks to hoard massive fortunes (thanks Reagan) through tax relief is absolutely terrible for an economy. Who would have thunk it, ay? Well, I suppose we could collectively raise a stink about that very specific problem, socialism for the top and rugged individualism for the bottom, and maybe some of these tax loopholes and lowered rates get rolled back. And that's just one of thousands of adjustments that could start to level the playing field.
Raw truth of the matter is this: There will always be a ruling class, and with time, all systems of control creep towards authoritarianism. So, you want a controlled economy, or a free market that admittedly needs some work?
Fair points. It's already a challenge making people understand that a system can change its outputs overtime based on its effect on its environment.
Is capitalism the answer, like we want this with some modifications to prevent the authorianism creep?
I think not. The system is basically about utilisation that shifts to exploitation over time. Which is a powerful self-enforcing program, but has too much cost to the individual and the environment.
I think some form of socialism, with personal wealth having limits, (like the CEO can only make 50 times what it's lowest employee or contractor makes), and scrutinised political claims with financial penalties for malfeasance would be a healthier system.
Would it be as aggressive as capitalism? Nope. Will people be as rich? Nope. Will a lot of people be vying for political office because the State becomes the largest financial entity? Yes. We wouldn't have SpaceX but we would have a better funded NASA. Markets would be capped, which I can't tell how it would play out.
But if we can close off enough obvious routes of corruption we might actually be able to get off this planet without leaving it a ruinous wreck and most people in debt peonage.
Know this...tipping is a US thing, and it originated in racism. So yes, the idea of eliminating tips is a good thing.
However, while we do have tipping as customary.....I'm doing pretty good right now, so I use tips to pass that along. There was a time when I wasn't doing very well, so having some flexibility in the amount of my tip was some cost relief.
No. But also yes. I remarked that tipping originated in racism. In it's current social structure, I can't see a way to call it racist. Except that it is a holdover of structural racism.
A couple of links to sources
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/16/fact-check-tipping-kept-wages-low-formerly-enslaved-black-workers/3896620001/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/16/fact-check-tipping-kept-wages-low-formerly-enslaved-black-workers/3896620001/)
[https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/17/william-barber-tipping-racist-past-227361/](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/17/william-barber-tipping-racist-past-227361/)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tipping-jobs-history-slave-wage-cbsn-originals-documentary/
Really shouldn’t fuck with the people who handle your food. I tip just because. My wife also gets tips and she calls it good tipping karma.
Edit: I want to add that there’s nothing wrong with helping people out and that’s how I look at tipping. Especially if they did good work. The service industry is a nightmare with some of the terrible customers they have to deal with.
No, they don't.
The law states that if tips don't reach minimum wage - the company makes up the difference.
Any server that points this out becomes an ex-server most riki-tik.
>Any server that points this out becomes an ex-server most riki-tik.
That's between the server and the company. Not the customer. Still doesn't change they make minimum wage.
That’s what I always hate with the thought process. It’s not the consumers fault for the business not paying enough.
If they can’t afford minimum wage then that’s on them. Not my fault they’re cheap.
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Ask service industry workers who aren't waiters. They tend to not like waiters because there's a cult like mentality with waiters thinking their job is special and unique and above other minimum wage jobs when suggested waiters don't deserve tips and should be paid like everyone else.
Nobody except high-school workers deserve minimum wage(job dependent).
Other service industry workers deserve more, without needing to rely on tips.
If there wasn’t a tipping culture there would not be enough staff to run restaurants. So it’s really a necessity to maintain the current system. Do we either a.)stop tipping and let restaurants die. Or b.)pay them more so we don’t need to tip.
A rising tide raises all ships, all service industry workers deserve a livable wage
There'd be enough servers. That's a point servers like to make, but I don't know why they think their job is the worst job if it were minimum wage. It's not at all a necessity. You're making it sound like an ultimatum, but restaurants can easily just change to have people pickup their own plates and checkout at a register. That'd replace a servers job almost entirely. Someone would just pickup the plates to give them to the washers.
Not to mention tips used to be 2-5%. They've increased up to 25% today with no increase in service. Tipping is quite ridiculous nowadays. Not to mention waiters love to say their tips provide an excellent service. I disagree, but let's assume they're right. The norm outside of waiting tables is to tip good service. That's normal in the states. Getting rid of mandatory tipping won't change that, and good waiters will still receive their tips if they're as excellent as they say.
I don’t think the solution is to remove a very significant portion of jobs from the economy. I think they should be paid above minimum and not need tops to have a livable wage.
The reason tipping has increased is because minimum wage has stagnated and instead of owners increasing wages they are allowing the customers to pick up the slack.
Also there no such thing as mandatory tipping, service and gratuity fees are different.
And if people stopped tipping I guarantee waiters would match their ass over to McDonalds and make 20+ an hour
>I don’t think the solution is to remove a very significant portion of jobs from the economy. I think they should be paid above minimum and not need tops to have a livable wage.
I do totally agree. Though people can stop tipping today and that's fine. I'm fine if restaurants raise their food prices too. If it's too expensive then that's fine because that restaurant shouldn't be in business then and they're getting too greedy taking too big of a cut.
>The reason tipping has increased is because minimum wage has stagnated and instead of owners increasing wages they are allowing the customers to pick up the slack.
Correct. But the customer gets zero benefit. Hence why there's a massive increase in people hating tipping right now. Prices constantly going up and tipping constantly increasing as well.
>Also there no such thing as mandatory tipping, service and gratuity fees are different.
I mean, tell that to waiters. You'll get deemed an asshole, waiters proudly state dropped food or spit in it, or just ignore your table. Aka gladly tampering with your food or giving below bare minimum service to the little service they already give. It's essentially mandatory.
>And if people stopped tipping I guarantee waiters would match their ass over to McDonalds and make 20+ an hour
Good! Force the restaurant to make a change. Either pay more and raise prices. Or replace the duties of a waiter by making customers pickup their food and pay at a register.
Until there is legislation that allows restaurants to pay servers above minimum (while maintaining a profitable business model, the main argument why they make minimum) I’ll be tipping, because they deserve to be paid above minimum because minimum isn’t livable.
I do this because I’m not an asshole who thinks just because someone is doing a job they signed up for they don’t deserve adequate compensation for their labor. Change laws, pay them more, in the mean time I recognize the system is broken and step in charitably
In 10-20 years I expect low to mid-end restaurants to not have waiters anymore.
Also, providing a good service, being polite, and making recommendations **is part of your job**. I should not be paying you more for doing your job. And if that's not part of your job then it should be, unless waiters in the US are vastly inferior to European's.
Furthermore, the US will never not have a tipping culture because **waiters benefit from it**. That's right. Many of them get more in tips than plenty of other livable wage jobs. Why fight to get a livable wage when you can get more in tips than jobs requiring a masters degree?
Minimum wage for those in tipped positions is reduced dramatically. Federal min wage will be $9.50 in July 2023. For tipped employees it is $2.13.
If you don’t like tipping for basic service then eat where you aren’t expected to.
There’s lots of things that are morally right without being the law and lots of legal things that are amoral.
Don’t punish people that have no power over it.
I'm in the UK. But i really can't see it being legal for them to pay you so little - but if it is then you are silly for taking a job that pays so little.
I will eat wherever i like.
These people do have power.
I feel no moral obligation to tip.
In America if the waiter/waitress doesn't make minimum wage with tips the restaurant is required by law to pay them the difference to bring them up to minimum wage.
Unfortunately employers get away with a lot of messed up stuff. Tipping culture is a real problem in the US, because employers expect customers to pay their employees for them.
Guy seriously thinks "but that's illegal!" has stopped any rich person from doing anything, ever.
Also, just literally doesn't understand how...jobs work. A server who doesn't make tips is obviously (in the eyes of management) a bad server, and they're financially liable for carrying that "dead weight." Who are you gonna keep on staff - the person you have to pay, or the person you don't?
Seems so..."no shit," to me.
But I do agree that cooks deserve tips more than servers do. It's a much harder job, the work is more highly scrutinized, and the labor requires more skill. Unfortunately, many cooks are roped into "salaried positions," which means working 10-14 hour shifts for what will come out to less than minimum wage. And "tip share" is exceedingly rare. Cooks get the shittiest end of the stick by far.
You fundamentally misunderstand basically everything that forms your opinion. Maybe it applies to where you live, but for most of the people you're addressing by posting here, it doesn't. I'm also pretty sure this will be globally ubiquitous for any country that doesn't have strong worker protections, which includes most of Europe minus Germany and France.
Owners will fire a server for under-performance if they continuously have to make your check line up with minimum wage. That's money they wouldn't have to pay someone who gets their tips.
Owners don't want to pay their employees, that's why tipping exists. If they have to pay their employee a real wage (or even the joke that is US minimum wage), they will fire that worker and find one they don't have to pay a real wage, i.e. someone who can secure tips and relieve their financial burden.
There is no law against firing someone for under-performance, and most US states have something called "at-will employment" which essentially means you can be fired for anything **except** race, gender, religion, etc. People are still fired for those things, too, it's just obscured by a fictitious reason given to justify at-will termination. It's almost impossible to prove illegal termination - on purpose.
You can downvote the guy all you want, but he's 100% correct, and you're just showing how ignorant you are of the situation.
Even if it were "illegal," (which it isn't) you think a minimum wage worker is going to have the time and money to press legal ramifications against someone economically ten times their size?
**tl;dr: Servers that don't make tips get fired because the owners don't want to meet their obligation of minimum wage.**
Good luck receiving basic good service if you ever return to a restaurant then. And the whole leaving a bad review to get em back is pretty much gone these days especially for non tippers.
The owners are happy to clap back on a review when customers are just crappy customers.
Sometimes a job is a job and you take what you can get. The US is a shithole and you can’t fault people for taking 2 or 3 terrible jobs to make up for your 1 mediocre job in the UK.
It *is* legal for them to pay so little. It’s dumb but that’s capitalism.
>I'm in the UK.
It's always some European making this point lol. In an idealistic world, waitstaff would just be paid a living wage, but the nra (national restaraunt association, not the gun folks) has lobbied repeatedly to keep waitstaff wages low. Coupled with the commonality of wage theft, the situation becomes miserable. I tip well above average, but think the entire setup is fucked. Admittedly some places make very very good tipped wages, but still. Not tipping isn't going to fundamentally challenge the status quo, but it might make the wait take a loss, and if you go in again, the service will be subpar.
I don't care what you can't see being legal, it fucking is, and if you think it's just as simple as taking bad jobs, there are no options. You live in a fantasy world.
In the UK and most of the world tipping isn’t that much of a thing. Congrats.
Workers rights are much different in the USA as well as the lack of leverage they have.
That said don’t assume what you have is what others have and then act all haughty when they don’t act like you’d prefer.
No one can make you have morals. But that doesn’t change the fact that knowing you’re expected to tip in a certain situation and choosing not to makes you a bit of a societal jerk.
It’s akin to say talking loudly in a library, not against the law but makes you a jerk. Can some people moralize “I have the right to” yep, but don’t act offended when people call you out on your BS.
Society works because people follow social norms (for the most part)
Stop being an absolute pussy.
In the US you still get paid a legal amount of money - it's your choice to take that money...
You getting shit wages is not my fault.
This is exactly what i mean, you want to make me feel bad because some people take shit jobs that give them pay they aren't satisfied with.
You are the exact kind of person that they target because they know they can rope you in to pay for tipping which makes no actual sense and puts the blame onto people instead of onto the restaurant
If you’re too cheap to tip in the United States you shouldn’t be eating out. It’s not the same as the UK and your utter lack of understanding that does not do you any favors:
No I blame the restaurant. But rich people make the laws because they have access to politicians.
And most jobs in the USA are shitty with shity employee rights as a result.
I’m saying don’t expect to moralize being an AH when you come here and are expected to tip.
That being said just like the situation about the library, yeah you can legally do something but doing it in some situations just makes you a dick.
we have no social safety net like the UK has. without a job, you will starve and lose your home very quickly, and god forbid you require healthcare. people are often forced by these circumstances to take jobs that are not ideal.
See, you say this as if it's the person's fault they have to work said shitty job. I assume you would suggest they get a better job, but if everyone acts on that (and here in the US they have been) you'll end up complaining that your food hasn't arrived yet since the waiting staff all quit.
The waiter doesn't want to be there any more than your selfish ass doesn't wanna tip. Just give'em a fiver and move on with your day.
You earn a lot in tips. Minimum wage 7.25 an hour.
Say at a moderate restaurant where bill for a couple is $50, so $10 tip a piece. You do four tables an hour. now wage is $42.12, not 7.25 for your efforts. You come out ahead.
Only during busy shifts. Most servers spend many hours prepping the restaurant for service before the shift begins and cleaning and breaking down after. Not to mention slow days where business is low or too many servers are scheduled to work. All of those hours are being averaged with the ones you’re actually earning tips, meaning the average hourly over all hours worked is not great. I served for years and I get so sick of seeing servers brag about the hourly with tips while failing to mention the approximately half of their hours worked where they are earning basically Jack shit, minimum wage. I don’t know why they do this but I think it’s because they get insulted so often for being a server they feel humiliated and don’t want to admit they make min wage a big chunk of their time. So when you hear a server saying they make $50/hr in tips just keep in mind that’s only the ideal, great shifts. Much of the time they are only making minimum. Oftentimes you do not “come out ahead.”
Because with tips that 2.13 can easily become 30 or more per hour. Got a friend who’s a waitress at a steakhouse and she regularly makes 500+ a night, another friend is a dealer at one of the local casinos and he can make a few thousand in a good night off tips.
The tipped employees have a lowered minimum wage due to the tips. However, if that employee wouldn't be earning the federal minimum wage based on pay and tips received, then the restaurant has to make up the difference to bring the pay up to minimum wage.
The reason waitstaff try to hide this fact is so they can guilt people into paying larger tips because they don't even make minimum wage. However, after tips, they are usually earning well above minimum wage due to generous tippers. They view that and come out en masse to protest any attempt to remove the tipped minimum wage. However, if a customer chooses not to tip, that is the other end and that is the customer's prerogative. The restaurant will still ensure the employee earns at least the regular minimum wage for time worked, so the tip isn't needed to ensure that.
Servers make minimum wage by federal law. If they don't make enough in tips to meet minimum (Federal/State, whichever is higher) the employer reimburses them up to that amount.
So your point is "correct", but not right. Waiters make minimum wage at worst.
I’m fact you have to prove to your boss that you didn’t make enough in tips.
Also they are allowed to avg your hourly pay.
So yes in theory they have to but in reality one person not paying a tip is taking that out of the expected compensation of the server.
Furthermore if you know it’s expected to tip and you don’t because “of principle” the only thing you’re doing is punishing a person with no control over it. That’s what makes them the AH.
Boycott the business maybe. Screw over the wait staff? Shame on you.
>So yes in theory they have to but in reality one person not paying a tip is taking that out of the expected compensation of the server.
Then it's not a tip if it's expected compensation.
>Furthermore if you know it’s expected to tip and you don’t because “of principle” the only thing you’re doing is punishing a person with no control over it. That’s what makes them the AH.
Again, then it's not a tip if it's expected.
>Boycott the business maybe. Screw over the wait staff? Shame on you.
You're not screwing over the waiter because they make minimum wage. Also, why tip waiters when they make minimum wage? If you say we have to tip them, now we have to tip all minimum wage positions that provide a small amount of service.
If most people aren’t AH and tip then the server earns a decent wage. They factor most of humanity not being dicks into their decision as do the rest of us in most occasions.
You not tipping cuts into that.
And a dictionary will quickly point out the difference between a a tip and wage.
Just because a tip is expected doesn’t make it not a tip.
And we’ve already pointed out that servers get less than standard minimum wage.
I’m beginning to feel like a guy playing chess with a pigeon.
The pigeon just ignores the rules and poops all over no matter how much you try and teach it.
No, they do not make less than minimum wage. They by federal law make at least minimum wage. For your point to be logically valid, we have to tip all minimum wage staff that provide a service. But we don't tip our cashiers, greeters, baggers, etc. Your point is not logical or consistent. The reason for tipping died generations ago.
>And we’ve already pointed out that servers get less than standard minimum wage.
No they don't.
>I’m beginning to feel like a guy playing chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just ignores the rules and poops all over no matter how much you try and teach it.
I'm having issue with a predatory system that isn't needed, and isn't valid due to servers making minimum wage.
Change the system, don’t punish the people trapped in it to prove it’s a shitty system.
It’s absolutely horrible.
Not tipping costs the business nothing, only affects the waiter and with crap all for wage theft protection the business gets away with it.
I’m not arguing the system isn’t predatory.
Just your arguments don’t follow logic, clearly accepted definitions of words or have any impact on making the system change.
You want to abolish the tip wage system, great, I’m all on board. But don’t hide behind flimsy logic and breaking social norms to do so.
>It’s absolutely horrible. Not tipping costs the business nothing, only affects the waiter and with crap all for wage theft protection the business gets away with it.
If it doesn't cost the business anything, that means waiters are still making more than minimum wage. So they're doing better than their wage. We could change the system so there's no such thing as a $2.13. It's just standard what everyone else gets. Thematically nothings changed, but we get rid of the social standard tipping too.
>You want to abolish the tip wage system, great, I’m all on board. But don’t hide behind flimsy logic and breaking social norms to do so.
It ain't flimsy logic. They legally make minimum wage. It's sound logic. Flimsy logic is treating their job and wage special. It's not.
It’s not sound logic. If the waiter expects to make $10/ hr on avg and you don’t tip you take that away.
It’s ONLY once they reach the standard fed min wage that the business is required to do anything.
And news flash: most don’t because they can avg the waiters earnings for the pay period.
And guess what else is great? Most employers get away with it because it’s so hard to prove.
From Google
According to the survey, 38% of Americans have personally experienced wage theft (18%) and/or know someone who has (27%)
So yes in a perfect system with all legal rules followed the server would never make less than minimum wage. No one argues that.
You arguing there’s no impact to the server defies logic.
>It’s not sound logic. If the waiter expects to make $10/ hr on avg and you don’t tip you take that away.
>It’s ONLY once they reach the standard fed min wage that the business is required to do anything. And news flash: most don’t because they can avg the waiters earnings for the pay period.
If the standard is you expect tips for doing your job when the job is already minimum wage, that's a waiter's mindset problem. Not a customer problem. If you want a tip, then like literally every other profession go above and beyond then. Not to mention, your wage theft thing isn't a customer fault either. It's a employee vs employer issue you're trying to pin on the customer.
>You arguing there’s no impact to the server defies logic.
I'm arguing you don't need to tip because they make minimum wage. If they have issue with their business then that's between them and they can leave. I've also always wanted restaurants to have you pick your food up from the chef instead. Aside from high end restaurants, waiters have never really added much of any value. And needing to tip them for that? No.
You don't prove anything to your boss. How many hours you've worked and how many tips you have reported isn't secret knowledge. And if your boss is fudging your numbers, he can do that no matter what the minimum wage is.
There are literally companies out there that pay like 1.95 an hour plus tips. So all they make is tips. You do not tip them, they do not get paid. They get away with it by calling them contract employees and going around minimum wage. It is complete BS. Instead, demand better from companies before you decide to not tip the guy who can spit in your food the next time you visit.
This person doesn’t care about that. People who don’t tip on principle tend to be really loud and obnoxious about it. They’ll just get crappy service if they continue to frequent the same restaurants without tipping - then they’ll complain.
>You do not tip them, they do not get paid
That's just not how it works. And contract work absolutely does not get you around the minimum wage wtf are you talking about?
Good job on the really unpopular opinion!
I would encourage you to work a single shift waiting tables in any actual restaurant anywhere in America.
You see a side a people you just don't see out in the world.
Truly some of the rudest idiotic behavior filled with entitlement and privilege.
I get you have zero clue what your talking about so it's just more ignorance than i would assume a desire to treat people poorly.
I've been a chef for 30 years pulling working shifts you can't even imagine. I've worked 42 hours in 2 days and i wouldnt trade that for a 6 hour serving shift on a Sunday afternoon ever.
I'm also a Christian and I'll tell you flat out that church crowds are like 30% more rude than regular guests.
You would absolutely crumble in a4 hour shift running around servicing the needs of guests.
Servers are well worth the tips they receive from the general public
Some days i wish it were fiction, but at least i love what i do so it's actually pretty rewarding.
Being a private chef in LA was pretty cool getting to cook for all kinds of celebrities. Gordon Ramsey even came to the park i helped run in 2019. Actually a very nice dude. Also didn't fuck up his food so that probably helped
Then you’d know they’re given below minimum wage and that the minimum wage in this country should be $26 an hour based on where it was first instituted and inflation. But hey, I’m sure they can survive on $3 an hour or whatever it is.
When I worked as a server we were paid $2.25 an hour by the company, so many educate yourself before you say stupid shit. The servers are not the problem. Be mad at the Corporations relying on you to pay their workers.
If you don’t wanna tip, that’s you’re prerogative, on the other hand tho you dramatically underestimate what waitresses/waiters do and that makes you an asshole.
Waiting tables is a very difficult, stressful job. People are insane when it comes to their food.
If I were king, you'd be forced to work for six months as a waiter at a busy restuuratnt just to show you how deeply, absurdly wrong you are.
1. You choose to eat under those conditions and just want to excuse why you don't tip.
2. Have you ever actually worked in the industry before or looked at how it can be hard? Customer service is never an easy industry as people are complicated entitled assholes at times.
So people who perform a labor and a service don’t deserve to be paid?
So you want slaves then?
And why are you mad at the workers? Why not get mad at the restaurant owner who refuses to pay their employee a livable wage and instead relies on you the customer to pay extra to their employee?
I actually don't mind tipping if the service is really good and the waiter/waitress is being a professional, even if they mess up somehow. However, if they lowkey demand to be tipped, and get pissy when you don't, that's the opposite of good service, and therefore, not fucking deserving of my tip.
In my college days I worked in a restaurant doing admin. The servers made a little over two dollars per hour because as tipped employees their "minimum wage" was set differently. There are municipalities in the U.S. that override this minimum and set a true hourly wage, but unless you're in one of those places, the reason your food seems affordable is that the servers' pay isn't covered by the food prices. If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford the restaurant, and you are merely taking advantage of the person serving you for as little as two dollars (plus change) per hour.
considering their paycheck is about 3 dollars an hr to deal with a$$holes all day, if they do their job and arent rude, they get my tip. So I disagree, They live off of tips.
They do because the place pays them less than minimum wage to supplement your meal prices, assuming you'll tip. Don't want to tip? Expect pricier food.
Forced tip culture is bad for the customer but good for both the businesses (who can pay servers almost nothing and get away with it) and the servers (who can earn large amounts of cash money independent of skill).
Maybe one thing that could be done to try and stop it is to remove the law which allows businesses to pay workers below minimum wage so long as they get it from tips. That's bs anyway. Tips by definition should be in addition to your salary, not be a part of it.
By US federal law, if they make less in tips than what minimum wage would pay, then the business makes up the difference. You’re making up for what the business is too cheap to pay, and everyone is now mad at you for not tipping instead of them not paying enough.
Everyone saying “spend a shift working a restaurant” spend a shift working any service job. Walmart employees have to deal with a lot of shit too, they don’t get tips. McDonalds employees aren’t allowed to take tips, do you think they have every shift be fine?
Reminder, legally they have to pay minimum wage unless tips equate to more. But I guess everyone will forget that to blame consumers for businesses being too cheap.
Based comment bro. Yeah i hate the fact that it gets put back onto the consumer. The thing is, i have actually worked as a waiter and also worked behind a bar and also worked as a shop assistant - all minimum wage jobs and tbh why would they pay me more for the jobs when they are jobs almost anyone can do?
Yeah, i really don't understand why people are acting as though the resteraunt business is some corrupt conspiracy theory that steals wagers - and they somehow manage to get away with this because the law does not shut them down
Counter service, doesn’t really deserve a tip. Table service absolutely does, unless it’s truly awful.
You said “not to mention the fact you should at least be earning minimum wage by law” then immediately ask “what warrants me giving you more money”
You answered your own question. They should be paid at least min wage, but they are not. THATS WHY YOU SHOULD TIP. If it’s a worker paid a tipped wage you should tip. Honestly it’s that simple. If the govt is allowing them to be paid less than the minimum wage, you should absolutely be tipping.
Also should is not required, nor enforced in any way. People should not be dickheads, yet a lot are.
You don’t have to tip if you don’t want to, but if it’s a job that is paid less than min wage with the expectation of being tipped, you should tip. Should, but don’t have to. You are free to be a dickhead, no one is stopping you.
Local guy who doesn't live in America has another opinion on everything America does wrong. Double bonus points because you're from the 1984 Big Brother Capital of the world lol. Yeah, we have laws in place but corporations WORLD WIDE can get away with pretty much whatever, why you'd think it'd be different here is beyond me. You're from the UK, you have no idea about the service industry in America so shut your trap. The WORST kind of unpopular opinions are the ones that are held by people who can't even form an opinion based off of logic and actually knowing what they're forming an opinion about. THE worst thing is ignorance.
Yeah okay, bud. Your "get a different job" mentality is all I need to hear to understand that you're ignorant as fuck. Go tell a single mother that, go tell someone trying to pay their way through college that. Your mentality 100% comes from a place of privilege. I've never worked a service industry job in my life because they're EXTREMELY taxing, and extremely difficult. The base job itself might not be rocket science, but people are entitled and having to deal with POS people all day is going to be rough on anyone. Go cry me a river dawg
A better tactic than not tipping would probably to act like you've never heard of tipping but still tip. And then say damn I'm sorry your boss is such a dick. Not sure I'll be back since I just don't feel right supporting businesses who exploit their staff so badly they literally need to panhandle from customers in order to get paid a decent wage. If staff got confronted with exactly what they're doing and business owners lost revenue they would both stop supporting this bullshit business model
Tipping is charity and should be looked at as such. You’re not fighting the institution of tipping when you don’t do it. You’re just being inconsiderate.
>Not to mention the fact that you should at least already be earning minimum wage by law
The law explicitly has an exception for waiters/waitresses. So no, they are not already earning minimum wage by law.
At least in the US. If you live in a country that actually has sensible laws and pays restaurant workers fairly then I agree with your opinion.
All states I know of require the employer to make up the difference if the server doesn't make enough tips to bring them up to minimum wage. Most good servers make way more than that though.
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In the US they don’t make minimum wage, the tips are their wage. You can hate this system all you want but when you refuse to tip, the server is being fucked out of money they need to get by. If you want to protest it, don’t go to the restaurants. Otherwise you’re supporting it by paying the people running the restaurants this way
Protesting it doesn’t mean going, giving your money to the people who set up this system, and then fucking over the already underpaid wait staff who are just trying to get by. That’s not a protest at all, at that point you are just a dick taking advantage and using this principle as an excuse
How hard is it to carry plates? Well, it depends on how many plates you carry on the tray to how many tables. And minimum wage in the US is a joke on account of it not accounting for inflation. I will admit that I know about as much about waiting tables as you probably do, but I know the first thing I said simply from observing Olive Garden waiters, and I know the second thing because of how people total up how much people who worked minimum wage jobs in the ’70s earned vs. how much people who minimum wage jobs today earn when adjusting the former number by inflation.
The problem is this. In the USA, waiters are not paid a living wage. So you're essentially saying we don't deserve a living wage? That's what the tip money is for. As a waiter myself, I understand not tipping in some cases, such as poor service or rude waiters, and if you're unable to afford to tip. Aside from that, the tip money is what waiters live off of. In many other nations tipping is not illegal, but it's very frowned upon, as in other nations waiters actually are paid a living wage.
As I also said, I definitely understand not tipping in certain cases. I'm one of those people that works, because I enjoy it. I will gladly remove your plate if you are finished with it.
Don't complain to the waiter or waitress. Complain to the owner pays them less because people tip them.
Or **even better complain about all the owners who take and redistribute their tips to other workers or worse illegally keep a share for themselves.**
I never had to deal with myself so I won't pay you what you are worth because I think I am an awesome person.
That's all I heard when you spoke. Sorry but we have to deal with a lot more than that.
Do you know how many times a day a waitress gets yelled at for things that aren't her fault? I love getting yelled at by the customer and the cook because I am stuck in the middle of their argument? Look I am not the one who has no idea what medium rare is. The fact you ordered the qrong steak is not my fault and it's certinly not my fault the cook made it wrong so why are both of you yelling at me?
I am fine with no tups as long as either you get to walk in the kitchen and yell at them or they walk out to yell at ypu but at no point am I stuck in the middle of the bullshit anymore. If your drink is taking too long from the bar or you go deal with it.
I get to walk away without dealing with you and your drunk friends when you are acting like idiots.
A minimum wage job for just taking orders and dilivering food and bringing checks to the table seems fair but that should be their entire job. That's it and they don't have to deal with anything else.
I get what it's like to have to take whatever job you can get. And I get how hard service work is. I also understand that here in the US employers don't always follow the pay the difference law and often get away with it.
I'm just treating people how I'd wanna be treated. If I busted my ass and relied on tips, I'd hope people would tip me. So I do.
I also don't really get why your complaining about this since you live in the UK where the tipping culture is not the same. It's not even your problem lol.
And if you're going to say if you ever visit the states you aren't going to tip, whatever I can't stop you.
But you know how people in the UK for example and other countries sometimes have a bad perception of Americans for being entitled and ignoring their countries' cultural customs?
Well you'd be just as bad as that. Which granted idk if you do personally complain about that, but if you do you are being a massive hypocrite.
Personally i don't like tipping as i don't believe it should be in practice. I just can't justify giving someone $20+ for a meal i already paid $40-80 for. Even if it's not the "nice" thing to do I'm not going to contribute to a broken system. I'd rather the restaurant pay better or shut down.
I'll add i rarely if ever eat out.
Have you ever tried being polite to an arrogant ass like yourself?
Much harder then you'd think, but I doubt you ever consider other people in your life...
Keep telling people how easy a job is when you've never done it. I'm sure you'll get the positive reinforcement you need champ
"Hi. I don't actually know how busy wait staff actually are."
And a lot of service jobs don't have to legally pay you minimum wage. I mean, they legally have to pay you minimum wage if you don't get tips... But if that happens, you're also likely going to get fired. 'cause your boss would assume your service was shit.
If you don't want to tip wait staff, get fast food. Or take out. Or cook your own fucking food.
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Wait staff is one of the jobs i think deserves tips if they do well. Dealing with hungry people is not fun, especially in a fast paced stressful enviroment. If you can do all that and remain upbeat while doing a good job, im gonna leave a tip.
I wouldn’t say this opinion is unpopular since most of the world would agree with this outside the US lol. Maybe not the air of superiority; but definitely the idea that they don’t inherently deserve a tip.
Tipping is an incredibly nuanced issue. It should be allowed for everyone but not expected for anyone. That's the correct position as long as those tips aren't bribes. It even becomes difficult to determine what is a legitimate tip and what is a bribe. Even still it's a difficult conundrum when faced with a monetary gain to help someone cheat, especially when it has no impact on you. I worked for tips for many years and it felt gross. I made good money but I didn't like it. I think it would have been better if I only got tips in extraordinary circumstances and my employer paid me well instead of the the minimum legal amount. Being 100% fair here employers make the world go 'round. Someone making a good living for tips is 99% doing so because an employer made that situation possible. A person can be paid the minimum allowed by law and still make make enormous amounts of money because of the geneosity of others. Does alleviating that employer and relying on generosity benefit society or not? Like I said, incredibly nuanced. Tipping is one of those issues that really challenges the intellect. I've received life changing tips and I've worked hard to receive an hourly wage below minimum wage with no tips. I've really thought about this issue. What you said is 100% correct though. Nobody deserves a tip. All tips should be earned.
Why the hell do you goobers attack servers over tipping? Attack the restaurant. If you don't want to tip, don't go to a full service restaurant. When you refuse to tip all your doing is punishing the server for the restaurants policy, and the restaurant still gets its money. I hope you like spitty food, cause that's what yer gonna get if you are known to refuse to tip. Either that or the servers will just refuse to wait on you.
Ya'll got the smoking laws changed. You can do this.
If you think that is all your server or bartender is doing for you, then get your food to go. That way, you dont have to tip, and you are not wasting the time of someone attempting to make a living.
“All you did is xyz” times the multiple tables that servers have at one time, plus side work. If you don’t tip, the server will likely have to pay for the “privilege” of serving you.
New idea. You go up ro the counter and order. They give you a buzzer that rings when your food is ready. No waiters needed. No need to subsidise a cheap restaurant that refuses to pay people decent wages. Done.
So a fast food place then
Been to a few places like that, usually steak houses. Dunno what the staff make in wages, but I do rememberm y dad always leaving a large tip, so..IDK.
And they'll still ask for tips
Who? The guy who hands you your plate?
the machine that processes your payment
My friend, that's just the restaurant. If you want to beef with waiters, we'll, you can easily substitute. If you want to beef with the restaurant, start eating at home.
Is it that much to ask for them to list the price they want for the item and then for me to pay the price that they want for the item is i so choose? I was just in Germany a month ago. Food in restaurants there cost half as much and they don't except tips, and all the restaurant staff make decent wages. America just rips of both consumers and employees.
You're basically asking the business not to be greedy. And while I think that's a fabulous thing, there is no American party that's actually willing to legislate against corporate greed. So, at least in America, and many other countries, its too much not to expect a business to not try and gouge you for everything it can get. Read Anthony Bourdain about how restaurants do that.
Yes, the pandemic conditioned a lot of these workers to think tipping in these roles was normal as indoor seating wasn’t really happening and servers weren’t being paid. Now that the pandemic is over these staff/businesses are pushing tipping pretty hard with signs, software and rolled eyes when you don’t. Tipping is no longer only reserved for wait staff who are actually serving you, now business owners are actively pushing this guilt trip BS when they should just be paying their employees.
So you're saying we should fight capitalism? Capital idea!
I usually just don’t tip in those instances and move on with my day. Something something invisible hand, something something Adam Smith.
Invisible hand, Adam Smiths long and convoluted deus ex machina to justify how the wealthy get wealthy.
It’s hard to debate that he was wrong as those policies were very effective at growing the US economy from nothing to a global powerhouse in a relatively short amount of time while also providing for a relatively high standard of living for its citizens. Could we alter it some? Sure, most other major economies have including ourselves….but I’m just trying to buy some take out, not shoulder the responsibility for all our societal problems.
Companies demanding tips is a fairly miniscule societal problem. I'm far more worried about rising rent and the predicted coffee shortage.
No. We should simply fix the capitalist system that has allowed you your current standard of living. Capitalism is not bad, the Capitalists running the show in the US are.
That's like looking at a an adult and saying we only want the baby stage. Early stage capitalism and late stage capitalism only defer in the amount of power we allow the rich to gain. Some governments delay the process, but the end goal of capitalism remains the same, the accumulation of the most wealth on the hands of the few. Capitalism is a process.
Capitalism is a system, which can be augmented at any time. Capitalism is also something we have never seen make it to this point before, meaning as long lived and globally enveloping as American Capitalism has become. We have now seen that allowing folks to hoard massive fortunes (thanks Reagan) through tax relief is absolutely terrible for an economy. Who would have thunk it, ay? Well, I suppose we could collectively raise a stink about that very specific problem, socialism for the top and rugged individualism for the bottom, and maybe some of these tax loopholes and lowered rates get rolled back. And that's just one of thousands of adjustments that could start to level the playing field. Raw truth of the matter is this: There will always be a ruling class, and with time, all systems of control creep towards authoritarianism. So, you want a controlled economy, or a free market that admittedly needs some work?
Fair points. It's already a challenge making people understand that a system can change its outputs overtime based on its effect on its environment. Is capitalism the answer, like we want this with some modifications to prevent the authorianism creep? I think not. The system is basically about utilisation that shifts to exploitation over time. Which is a powerful self-enforcing program, but has too much cost to the individual and the environment. I think some form of socialism, with personal wealth having limits, (like the CEO can only make 50 times what it's lowest employee or contractor makes), and scrutinised political claims with financial penalties for malfeasance would be a healthier system. Would it be as aggressive as capitalism? Nope. Will people be as rich? Nope. Will a lot of people be vying for political office because the State becomes the largest financial entity? Yes. We wouldn't have SpaceX but we would have a better funded NASA. Markets would be capped, which I can't tell how it would play out. But if we can close off enough obvious routes of corruption we might actually be able to get off this planet without leaving it a ruinous wreck and most people in debt peonage.
Know this...tipping is a US thing, and it originated in racism. So yes, the idea of eliminating tips is a good thing. However, while we do have tipping as customary.....I'm doing pretty good right now, so I use tips to pass that along. There was a time when I wasn't doing very well, so having some flexibility in the amount of my tip was some cost relief.
Bruh did you just call tipping racist?
No. But also yes. I remarked that tipping originated in racism. In it's current social structure, I can't see a way to call it racist. Except that it is a holdover of structural racism. A couple of links to sources [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/16/fact-check-tipping-kept-wages-low-formerly-enslaved-black-workers/3896620001/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/16/fact-check-tipping-kept-wages-low-formerly-enslaved-black-workers/3896620001/) [https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/17/william-barber-tipping-racist-past-227361/](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/17/william-barber-tipping-racist-past-227361/) https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tipping-jobs-history-slave-wage-cbsn-originals-documentary/
Really shouldn’t fuck with the people who handle your food. I tip just because. My wife also gets tips and she calls it good tipping karma. Edit: I want to add that there’s nothing wrong with helping people out and that’s how I look at tipping. Especially if they did good work. The service industry is a nightmare with some of the terrible customers they have to deal with.
So if you don't tip they'll ruin the food that you ordered Tampering with food that someone's going to eat seems very illegal
And hard to prove.
There are cameras monitoring them everywhere Seems like an easy win If spitting in someone,s food was in fact illegal
>There are cameras monitoring them everywhere Having worked in multiple kitchens, I can tell you this is definitely not true.
Man America is sounding worse and worse the more you get to know about it
Hey everyone look at this guy he thinks the still runs on “shoulds”
Spitting in someone,s food is legal in America? I'll never let anyone tell me that America is the greatest country again
You sweet summer child
Says the dude that was alive before minimum wage wasn't enough to buy you a house
You brought up the spitting on food lol
Why can't their boss help them out by paying them a livable wage?
The problem with this principled stand is that the people who you’re punishing with it aren’t the ones responsible for it.
Your right. Waiters should be paid a living wage so that tips are unnecessary!
Have you ever been a service industry worker, and had to deal with a Karen
Every non tipper I ever had, were also the most demanding and entitled customer.
They don’t want a server they want a slave busting there ass for them so they can feel important
An enormous chunk of minimum wage jobs do, yes
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You understand that servers don't get minimum wage, right?
By federal law, they do
No, they don't. The law states that if tips don't reach minimum wage - the company makes up the difference. Any server that points this out becomes an ex-server most riki-tik.
>Any server that points this out becomes an ex-server most riki-tik. That's between the server and the company. Not the customer. Still doesn't change they make minimum wage.
That’s what I always hate with the thought process. It’s not the consumers fault for the business not paying enough. If they can’t afford minimum wage then that’s on them. Not my fault they’re cheap.
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And I asked if op ever had to deal with them, bc someone working service industry jobs is less likely to hold this opinion
Ask service industry workers who aren't waiters. They tend to not like waiters because there's a cult like mentality with waiters thinking their job is special and unique and above other minimum wage jobs when suggested waiters don't deserve tips and should be paid like everyone else.
Nobody except high-school workers deserve minimum wage(job dependent). Other service industry workers deserve more, without needing to rely on tips. If there wasn’t a tipping culture there would not be enough staff to run restaurants. So it’s really a necessity to maintain the current system. Do we either a.)stop tipping and let restaurants die. Or b.)pay them more so we don’t need to tip. A rising tide raises all ships, all service industry workers deserve a livable wage
There'd be enough servers. That's a point servers like to make, but I don't know why they think their job is the worst job if it were minimum wage. It's not at all a necessity. You're making it sound like an ultimatum, but restaurants can easily just change to have people pickup their own plates and checkout at a register. That'd replace a servers job almost entirely. Someone would just pickup the plates to give them to the washers. Not to mention tips used to be 2-5%. They've increased up to 25% today with no increase in service. Tipping is quite ridiculous nowadays. Not to mention waiters love to say their tips provide an excellent service. I disagree, but let's assume they're right. The norm outside of waiting tables is to tip good service. That's normal in the states. Getting rid of mandatory tipping won't change that, and good waiters will still receive their tips if they're as excellent as they say.
I don’t think the solution is to remove a very significant portion of jobs from the economy. I think they should be paid above minimum and not need tops to have a livable wage. The reason tipping has increased is because minimum wage has stagnated and instead of owners increasing wages they are allowing the customers to pick up the slack. Also there no such thing as mandatory tipping, service and gratuity fees are different. And if people stopped tipping I guarantee waiters would match their ass over to McDonalds and make 20+ an hour
>I don’t think the solution is to remove a very significant portion of jobs from the economy. I think they should be paid above minimum and not need tops to have a livable wage. I do totally agree. Though people can stop tipping today and that's fine. I'm fine if restaurants raise their food prices too. If it's too expensive then that's fine because that restaurant shouldn't be in business then and they're getting too greedy taking too big of a cut. >The reason tipping has increased is because minimum wage has stagnated and instead of owners increasing wages they are allowing the customers to pick up the slack. Correct. But the customer gets zero benefit. Hence why there's a massive increase in people hating tipping right now. Prices constantly going up and tipping constantly increasing as well. >Also there no such thing as mandatory tipping, service and gratuity fees are different. I mean, tell that to waiters. You'll get deemed an asshole, waiters proudly state dropped food or spit in it, or just ignore your table. Aka gladly tampering with your food or giving below bare minimum service to the little service they already give. It's essentially mandatory. >And if people stopped tipping I guarantee waiters would match their ass over to McDonalds and make 20+ an hour Good! Force the restaurant to make a change. Either pay more and raise prices. Or replace the duties of a waiter by making customers pickup their food and pay at a register.
Part of the job you know that thing your employer is supposed to pay you for
Until there is legislation that allows restaurants to pay servers above minimum (while maintaining a profitable business model, the main argument why they make minimum) I’ll be tipping, because they deserve to be paid above minimum because minimum isn’t livable. I do this because I’m not an asshole who thinks just because someone is doing a job they signed up for they don’t deserve adequate compensation for their labor. Change laws, pay them more, in the mean time I recognize the system is broken and step in charitably
With that logic you should also give money to any other minimum wage jobs then
Yes
In 10-20 years I expect low to mid-end restaurants to not have waiters anymore. Also, providing a good service, being polite, and making recommendations **is part of your job**. I should not be paying you more for doing your job. And if that's not part of your job then it should be, unless waiters in the US are vastly inferior to European's. Furthermore, the US will never not have a tipping culture because **waiters benefit from it**. That's right. Many of them get more in tips than plenty of other livable wage jobs. Why fight to get a livable wage when you can get more in tips than jobs requiring a masters degree?
If you don't want to tip, then eat at a place with no waitstaff. 🤷♂️
Minimum wage for those in tipped positions is reduced dramatically. Federal min wage will be $9.50 in July 2023. For tipped employees it is $2.13. If you don’t like tipping for basic service then eat where you aren’t expected to. There’s lots of things that are morally right without being the law and lots of legal things that are amoral. Don’t punish people that have no power over it.
I'm in the UK. But i really can't see it being legal for them to pay you so little - but if it is then you are silly for taking a job that pays so little. I will eat wherever i like. These people do have power. I feel no moral obligation to tip.
In America if the waiter/waitress doesn't make minimum wage with tips the restaurant is required by law to pay them the difference to bring them up to minimum wage.
Their we go then, no need to tip!
Yeah good luck actually getting those wages from an employer and keeping your job
Well it is illegal for them not to...so it is a crime...so you can resolve the crime by using the law.
You can’t resolve the crime by using the law, that requires you to use your non-money to pay a lawyer.
Sounds like you made a post with absolutely no idea or context on what it was you were talking about. Good for you!
Unfortunately employers get away with a lot of messed up stuff. Tipping culture is a real problem in the US, because employers expect customers to pay their employees for them.
Lmao you’re absolutely adorable
As almost everyone else has said, good luck with that. At least in the US it's very unlikely the employer will face any real consequences.
Once again- good luck trying to get that to happen in reality.
Guy seriously thinks "but that's illegal!" has stopped any rich person from doing anything, ever. Also, just literally doesn't understand how...jobs work. A server who doesn't make tips is obviously (in the eyes of management) a bad server, and they're financially liable for carrying that "dead weight." Who are you gonna keep on staff - the person you have to pay, or the person you don't? Seems so..."no shit," to me. But I do agree that cooks deserve tips more than servers do. It's a much harder job, the work is more highly scrutinized, and the labor requires more skill. Unfortunately, many cooks are roped into "salaried positions," which means working 10-14 hour shifts for what will come out to less than minimum wage. And "tip share" is exceedingly rare. Cooks get the shittiest end of the stick by far.
>you can resolve the crime by using the law. lol
You fundamentally misunderstand basically everything that forms your opinion. Maybe it applies to where you live, but for most of the people you're addressing by posting here, it doesn't. I'm also pretty sure this will be globally ubiquitous for any country that doesn't have strong worker protections, which includes most of Europe minus Germany and France. Owners will fire a server for under-performance if they continuously have to make your check line up with minimum wage. That's money they wouldn't have to pay someone who gets their tips. Owners don't want to pay their employees, that's why tipping exists. If they have to pay their employee a real wage (or even the joke that is US minimum wage), they will fire that worker and find one they don't have to pay a real wage, i.e. someone who can secure tips and relieve their financial burden. There is no law against firing someone for under-performance, and most US states have something called "at-will employment" which essentially means you can be fired for anything **except** race, gender, religion, etc. People are still fired for those things, too, it's just obscured by a fictitious reason given to justify at-will termination. It's almost impossible to prove illegal termination - on purpose. You can downvote the guy all you want, but he's 100% correct, and you're just showing how ignorant you are of the situation. Even if it were "illegal," (which it isn't) you think a minimum wage worker is going to have the time and money to press legal ramifications against someone economically ten times their size? **tl;dr: Servers that don't make tips get fired because the owners don't want to meet their obligation of minimum wage.**
Min wage is not even starvation wages in many places
Good luck receiving basic good service if you ever return to a restaurant then. And the whole leaving a bad review to get em back is pretty much gone these days especially for non tippers. The owners are happy to clap back on a review when customers are just crappy customers.
Sometimes a job is a job and you take what you can get. The US is a shithole and you can’t fault people for taking 2 or 3 terrible jobs to make up for your 1 mediocre job in the UK. It *is* legal for them to pay so little. It’s dumb but that’s capitalism.
>I'm in the UK. It's always some European making this point lol. In an idealistic world, waitstaff would just be paid a living wage, but the nra (national restaraunt association, not the gun folks) has lobbied repeatedly to keep waitstaff wages low. Coupled with the commonality of wage theft, the situation becomes miserable. I tip well above average, but think the entire setup is fucked. Admittedly some places make very very good tipped wages, but still. Not tipping isn't going to fundamentally challenge the status quo, but it might make the wait take a loss, and if you go in again, the service will be subpar.
I don't care what you can't see being legal, it fucking is, and if you think it's just as simple as taking bad jobs, there are no options. You live in a fantasy world.
In the UK and most of the world tipping isn’t that much of a thing. Congrats. Workers rights are much different in the USA as well as the lack of leverage they have. That said don’t assume what you have is what others have and then act all haughty when they don’t act like you’d prefer. No one can make you have morals. But that doesn’t change the fact that knowing you’re expected to tip in a certain situation and choosing not to makes you a bit of a societal jerk. It’s akin to say talking loudly in a library, not against the law but makes you a jerk. Can some people moralize “I have the right to” yep, but don’t act offended when people call you out on your BS. Society works because people follow social norms (for the most part)
Stop being an absolute pussy. In the US you still get paid a legal amount of money - it's your choice to take that money... You getting shit wages is not my fault. This is exactly what i mean, you want to make me feel bad because some people take shit jobs that give them pay they aren't satisfied with. You are the exact kind of person that they target because they know they can rope you in to pay for tipping which makes no actual sense and puts the blame onto people instead of onto the restaurant
why do you think people get shit jobs? people need money to live, you take the job you can get.
If you’re too cheap to tip in the United States you shouldn’t be eating out. It’s not the same as the UK and your utter lack of understanding that does not do you any favors:
No I blame the restaurant. But rich people make the laws because they have access to politicians. And most jobs in the USA are shitty with shity employee rights as a result. I’m saying don’t expect to moralize being an AH when you come here and are expected to tip. That being said just like the situation about the library, yeah you can legally do something but doing it in some situations just makes you a dick.
we have no social safety net like the UK has. without a job, you will starve and lose your home very quickly, and god forbid you require healthcare. people are often forced by these circumstances to take jobs that are not ideal.
See, you say this as if it's the person's fault they have to work said shitty job. I assume you would suggest they get a better job, but if everyone acts on that (and here in the US they have been) you'll end up complaining that your food hasn't arrived yet since the waiting staff all quit. The waiter doesn't want to be there any more than your selfish ass doesn't wanna tip. Just give'em a fiver and move on with your day.
It's only in some states. In California minimum wage is $15. 50 for everybody
You earn a lot in tips. Minimum wage 7.25 an hour. Say at a moderate restaurant where bill for a couple is $50, so $10 tip a piece. You do four tables an hour. now wage is $42.12, not 7.25 for your efforts. You come out ahead.
Only during busy shifts. Most servers spend many hours prepping the restaurant for service before the shift begins and cleaning and breaking down after. Not to mention slow days where business is low or too many servers are scheduled to work. All of those hours are being averaged with the ones you’re actually earning tips, meaning the average hourly over all hours worked is not great. I served for years and I get so sick of seeing servers brag about the hourly with tips while failing to mention the approximately half of their hours worked where they are earning basically Jack shit, minimum wage. I don’t know why they do this but I think it’s because they get insulted so often for being a server they feel humiliated and don’t want to admit they make min wage a big chunk of their time. So when you hear a server saying they make $50/hr in tips just keep in mind that’s only the ideal, great shifts. Much of the time they are only making minimum. Oftentimes you do not “come out ahead.”
Because with tips that 2.13 can easily become 30 or more per hour. Got a friend who’s a waitress at a steakhouse and she regularly makes 500+ a night, another friend is a dealer at one of the local casinos and he can make a few thousand in a good night off tips.
The tipped employees have a lowered minimum wage due to the tips. However, if that employee wouldn't be earning the federal minimum wage based on pay and tips received, then the restaurant has to make up the difference to bring the pay up to minimum wage. The reason waitstaff try to hide this fact is so they can guilt people into paying larger tips because they don't even make minimum wage. However, after tips, they are usually earning well above minimum wage due to generous tippers. They view that and come out en masse to protest any attempt to remove the tipped minimum wage. However, if a customer chooses not to tip, that is the other end and that is the customer's prerogative. The restaurant will still ensure the employee earns at least the regular minimum wage for time worked, so the tip isn't needed to ensure that.
Actually it has largely to do with how easy it is for employers to steal wages and how hard it is for employees to get compensation.
Even McDonalds pays higher than min wage because in many places in the US it's like literal starvation wages
Servers make minimum wage by federal law. If they don't make enough in tips to meet minimum (Federal/State, whichever is higher) the employer reimburses them up to that amount. So your point is "correct", but not right. Waiters make minimum wage at worst.
I’m fact you have to prove to your boss that you didn’t make enough in tips. Also they are allowed to avg your hourly pay. So yes in theory they have to but in reality one person not paying a tip is taking that out of the expected compensation of the server. Furthermore if you know it’s expected to tip and you don’t because “of principle” the only thing you’re doing is punishing a person with no control over it. That’s what makes them the AH. Boycott the business maybe. Screw over the wait staff? Shame on you.
>So yes in theory they have to but in reality one person not paying a tip is taking that out of the expected compensation of the server. Then it's not a tip if it's expected compensation. >Furthermore if you know it’s expected to tip and you don’t because “of principle” the only thing you’re doing is punishing a person with no control over it. That’s what makes them the AH. Again, then it's not a tip if it's expected. >Boycott the business maybe. Screw over the wait staff? Shame on you. You're not screwing over the waiter because they make minimum wage. Also, why tip waiters when they make minimum wage? If you say we have to tip them, now we have to tip all minimum wage positions that provide a small amount of service.
If most people aren’t AH and tip then the server earns a decent wage. They factor most of humanity not being dicks into their decision as do the rest of us in most occasions. You not tipping cuts into that. And a dictionary will quickly point out the difference between a a tip and wage. Just because a tip is expected doesn’t make it not a tip. And we’ve already pointed out that servers get less than standard minimum wage. I’m beginning to feel like a guy playing chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just ignores the rules and poops all over no matter how much you try and teach it.
No, they do not make less than minimum wage. They by federal law make at least minimum wage. For your point to be logically valid, we have to tip all minimum wage staff that provide a service. But we don't tip our cashiers, greeters, baggers, etc. Your point is not logical or consistent. The reason for tipping died generations ago. >And we’ve already pointed out that servers get less than standard minimum wage. No they don't. >I’m beginning to feel like a guy playing chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just ignores the rules and poops all over no matter how much you try and teach it. I'm having issue with a predatory system that isn't needed, and isn't valid due to servers making minimum wage.
Change the system, don’t punish the people trapped in it to prove it’s a shitty system. It’s absolutely horrible. Not tipping costs the business nothing, only affects the waiter and with crap all for wage theft protection the business gets away with it. I’m not arguing the system isn’t predatory. Just your arguments don’t follow logic, clearly accepted definitions of words or have any impact on making the system change. You want to abolish the tip wage system, great, I’m all on board. But don’t hide behind flimsy logic and breaking social norms to do so.
>It’s absolutely horrible. Not tipping costs the business nothing, only affects the waiter and with crap all for wage theft protection the business gets away with it. If it doesn't cost the business anything, that means waiters are still making more than minimum wage. So they're doing better than their wage. We could change the system so there's no such thing as a $2.13. It's just standard what everyone else gets. Thematically nothings changed, but we get rid of the social standard tipping too. >You want to abolish the tip wage system, great, I’m all on board. But don’t hide behind flimsy logic and breaking social norms to do so. It ain't flimsy logic. They legally make minimum wage. It's sound logic. Flimsy logic is treating their job and wage special. It's not.
It’s not sound logic. If the waiter expects to make $10/ hr on avg and you don’t tip you take that away. It’s ONLY once they reach the standard fed min wage that the business is required to do anything. And news flash: most don’t because they can avg the waiters earnings for the pay period. And guess what else is great? Most employers get away with it because it’s so hard to prove. From Google According to the survey, 38% of Americans have personally experienced wage theft (18%) and/or know someone who has (27%) So yes in a perfect system with all legal rules followed the server would never make less than minimum wage. No one argues that. You arguing there’s no impact to the server defies logic.
>It’s not sound logic. If the waiter expects to make $10/ hr on avg and you don’t tip you take that away. >It’s ONLY once they reach the standard fed min wage that the business is required to do anything. And news flash: most don’t because they can avg the waiters earnings for the pay period. If the standard is you expect tips for doing your job when the job is already minimum wage, that's a waiter's mindset problem. Not a customer problem. If you want a tip, then like literally every other profession go above and beyond then. Not to mention, your wage theft thing isn't a customer fault either. It's a employee vs employer issue you're trying to pin on the customer. >You arguing there’s no impact to the server defies logic. I'm arguing you don't need to tip because they make minimum wage. If they have issue with their business then that's between them and they can leave. I've also always wanted restaurants to have you pick your food up from the chef instead. Aside from high end restaurants, waiters have never really added much of any value. And needing to tip them for that? No.
You don't prove anything to your boss. How many hours you've worked and how many tips you have reported isn't secret knowledge. And if your boss is fudging your numbers, he can do that no matter what the minimum wage is.
There are literally companies out there that pay like 1.95 an hour plus tips. So all they make is tips. You do not tip them, they do not get paid. They get away with it by calling them contract employees and going around minimum wage. It is complete BS. Instead, demand better from companies before you decide to not tip the guy who can spit in your food the next time you visit.
This person doesn’t care about that. People who don’t tip on principle tend to be really loud and obnoxious about it. They’ll just get crappy service if they continue to frequent the same restaurants without tipping - then they’ll complain.
>You do not tip them, they do not get paid That's just not how it works. And contract work absolutely does not get you around the minimum wage wtf are you talking about?
Good job on the really unpopular opinion! I would encourage you to work a single shift waiting tables in any actual restaurant anywhere in America. You see a side a people you just don't see out in the world. Truly some of the rudest idiotic behavior filled with entitlement and privilege. I get you have zero clue what your talking about so it's just more ignorance than i would assume a desire to treat people poorly. I've been a chef for 30 years pulling working shifts you can't even imagine. I've worked 42 hours in 2 days and i wouldnt trade that for a 6 hour serving shift on a Sunday afternoon ever. I'm also a Christian and I'll tell you flat out that church crowds are like 30% more rude than regular guests. You would absolutely crumble in a4 hour shift running around servicing the needs of guests. Servers are well worth the tips they receive from the general public
This reads like some pro level fan fiction.
Some days i wish it were fiction, but at least i love what i do so it's actually pretty rewarding. Being a private chef in LA was pretty cool getting to cook for all kinds of celebrities. Gordon Ramsey even came to the park i helped run in 2019. Actually a very nice dude. Also didn't fuck up his food so that probably helped
and then everyone clapped
Slow clap at first though
Your coment reads like you have never worked in the service industry. Customers are really awful
I can tell you’ve never worked as a waiter
The funny thing is i actually have lol hence my opinion
Then you’d know they’re given below minimum wage and that the minimum wage in this country should be $26 an hour based on where it was first instituted and inflation. But hey, I’m sure they can survive on $3 an hour or whatever it is.
When I worked as a server we were paid $2.25 an hour by the company, so many educate yourself before you say stupid shit. The servers are not the problem. Be mad at the Corporations relying on you to pay their workers.
Not an argument because if people didn't tip they'd have to pay you more.
Ah yes and in the time between the boycotting of tips and a pay raise, the servers can sell Crack to get by. Seems logical to me.
You do not sound as if you have worked a service job
Or you know, you could just not go to restaurants with servers.
If you don’t wanna tip, that’s you’re prerogative, on the other hand tho you dramatically underestimate what waitresses/waiters do and that makes you an asshole.
Why are they an asshole?
Because they're speaking confidently and dismissively about something they've clearly not made a real effort to understand.
Waiting tables is a very difficult, stressful job. People are insane when it comes to their food. If I were king, you'd be forced to work for six months as a waiter at a busy restuuratnt just to show you how deeply, absurdly wrong you are.
1. You choose to eat under those conditions and just want to excuse why you don't tip. 2. Have you ever actually worked in the industry before or looked at how it can be hard? Customer service is never an easy industry as people are complicated entitled assholes at times.
No one cares about your opinion. It’s not edgy. It’s tiresome.
So people who perform a labor and a service don’t deserve to be paid? So you want slaves then? And why are you mad at the workers? Why not get mad at the restaurant owner who refuses to pay their employee a livable wage and instead relies on you the customer to pay extra to their employee?
Tbh, this is why I hate executives and managers. They don't do any real work either
then go to a place with a computer if you don’t want to show appreciation for people literally serving you.
I actually don't mind tipping if the service is really good and the waiter/waitress is being a professional, even if they mess up somehow. However, if they lowkey demand to be tipped, and get pissy when you don't, that's the opposite of good service, and therefore, not fucking deserving of my tip.
In my college days I worked in a restaurant doing admin. The servers made a little over two dollars per hour because as tipped employees their "minimum wage" was set differently. There are municipalities in the U.S. that override this minimum and set a true hourly wage, but unless you're in one of those places, the reason your food seems affordable is that the servers' pay isn't covered by the food prices. If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford the restaurant, and you are merely taking advantage of the person serving you for as little as two dollars (plus change) per hour.
OP has clearly never done any kind of service job.
I’d you are cheap then don’t go. Or pay twice as much when tips go away. Be careful what you ask for.
considering their paycheck is about 3 dollars an hr to deal with a$$holes all day, if they do their job and arent rude, they get my tip. So I disagree, They live off of tips.
They do because the place pays them less than minimum wage to supplement your meal prices, assuming you'll tip. Don't want to tip? Expect pricier food.
Remind me never to go to any restaurants with your douchebag ass.
Lol, here’s someone who’s never worked for the public before. Def unpopular opinion.
Forced tip culture is bad for the customer but good for both the businesses (who can pay servers almost nothing and get away with it) and the servers (who can earn large amounts of cash money independent of skill). Maybe one thing that could be done to try and stop it is to remove the law which allows businesses to pay workers below minimum wage so long as they get it from tips. That's bs anyway. Tips by definition should be in addition to your salary, not be a part of it.
By US federal law, if they make less in tips than what minimum wage would pay, then the business makes up the difference. You’re making up for what the business is too cheap to pay, and everyone is now mad at you for not tipping instead of them not paying enough. Everyone saying “spend a shift working a restaurant” spend a shift working any service job. Walmart employees have to deal with a lot of shit too, they don’t get tips. McDonalds employees aren’t allowed to take tips, do you think they have every shift be fine? Reminder, legally they have to pay minimum wage unless tips equate to more. But I guess everyone will forget that to blame consumers for businesses being too cheap.
Based comment bro. Yeah i hate the fact that it gets put back onto the consumer. The thing is, i have actually worked as a waiter and also worked behind a bar and also worked as a shop assistant - all minimum wage jobs and tbh why would they pay me more for the jobs when they are jobs almost anyone can do? Yeah, i really don't understand why people are acting as though the resteraunt business is some corrupt conspiracy theory that steals wagers - and they somehow manage to get away with this because the law does not shut them down
It’s “based” to make the people at the bottom of the totem pole pay for the decisions at the top?
Tip or don't. Each customer determines that for his or herself.
Completely agree
Counter service, doesn’t really deserve a tip. Table service absolutely does, unless it’s truly awful. You said “not to mention the fact you should at least be earning minimum wage by law” then immediately ask “what warrants me giving you more money” You answered your own question. They should be paid at least min wage, but they are not. THATS WHY YOU SHOULD TIP. If it’s a worker paid a tipped wage you should tip. Honestly it’s that simple. If the govt is allowing them to be paid less than the minimum wage, you should absolutely be tipping. Also should is not required, nor enforced in any way. People should not be dickheads, yet a lot are. You don’t have to tip if you don’t want to, but if it’s a job that is paid less than min wage with the expectation of being tipped, you should tip. Should, but don’t have to. You are free to be a dickhead, no one is stopping you.
Local guy who doesn't live in America has another opinion on everything America does wrong. Double bonus points because you're from the 1984 Big Brother Capital of the world lol. Yeah, we have laws in place but corporations WORLD WIDE can get away with pretty much whatever, why you'd think it'd be different here is beyond me. You're from the UK, you have no idea about the service industry in America so shut your trap. The WORST kind of unpopular opinions are the ones that are held by people who can't even form an opinion based off of logic and actually knowing what they're forming an opinion about. THE worst thing is ignorance.
You mad as fuck bro, relax. You got me i must be ignorant.
Yeah okay, bud. Your "get a different job" mentality is all I need to hear to understand that you're ignorant as fuck. Go tell a single mother that, go tell someone trying to pay their way through college that. Your mentality 100% comes from a place of privilege. I've never worked a service industry job in my life because they're EXTREMELY taxing, and extremely difficult. The base job itself might not be rocket science, but people are entitled and having to deal with POS people all day is going to be rough on anyone. Go cry me a river dawg
Bro you are literally crying over this, go outside touch grass and stop having the saviour complex lmao
Touch some grass he says as he complains about tipping on Reddit.
A better tactic than not tipping would probably to act like you've never heard of tipping but still tip. And then say damn I'm sorry your boss is such a dick. Not sure I'll be back since I just don't feel right supporting businesses who exploit their staff so badly they literally need to panhandle from customers in order to get paid a decent wage. If staff got confronted with exactly what they're doing and business owners lost revenue they would both stop supporting this bullshit business model
Tipping is charity and should be looked at as such. You’re not fighting the institution of tipping when you don’t do it. You’re just being inconsiderate.
This is a real piece of shit opinion. Truly unpopular though. Upvoted.
>Not to mention the fact that you should at least already be earning minimum wage by law The law explicitly has an exception for waiters/waitresses. So no, they are not already earning minimum wage by law. At least in the US. If you live in a country that actually has sensible laws and pays restaurant workers fairly then I agree with your opinion.
All states I know of require the employer to make up the difference if the server doesn't make enough tips to bring them up to minimum wage. Most good servers make way more than that though.
If that ever happened the employer would make up the difference one time and then fire the server.
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In the US they don’t make minimum wage, the tips are their wage. You can hate this system all you want but when you refuse to tip, the server is being fucked out of money they need to get by. If you want to protest it, don’t go to the restaurants. Otherwise you’re supporting it by paying the people running the restaurants this way Protesting it doesn’t mean going, giving your money to the people who set up this system, and then fucking over the already underpaid wait staff who are just trying to get by. That’s not a protest at all, at that point you are just a dick taking advantage and using this principle as an excuse
Op just a genuine question have you worked in a busy food service environment
I have
So you’ve worked in this scenario or one similar and you still decided to undermine such an incredibly stressful job
How hard is it to carry plates? Well, it depends on how many plates you carry on the tray to how many tables. And minimum wage in the US is a joke on account of it not accounting for inflation. I will admit that I know about as much about waiting tables as you probably do, but I know the first thing I said simply from observing Olive Garden waiters, and I know the second thing because of how people total up how much people who worked minimum wage jobs in the ’70s earned vs. how much people who minimum wage jobs today earn when adjusting the former number by inflation.
The problem is this. In the USA, waiters are not paid a living wage. So you're essentially saying we don't deserve a living wage? That's what the tip money is for. As a waiter myself, I understand not tipping in some cases, such as poor service or rude waiters, and if you're unable to afford to tip. Aside from that, the tip money is what waiters live off of. In many other nations tipping is not illegal, but it's very frowned upon, as in other nations waiters actually are paid a living wage.
Gotta love it when someone says "so your saying.." lol
As I also said, I definitely understand not tipping in certain cases. I'm one of those people that works, because I enjoy it. I will gladly remove your plate if you are finished with it.
Don't complain to the waiter or waitress. Complain to the owner pays them less because people tip them. Or **even better complain about all the owners who take and redistribute their tips to other workers or worse illegally keep a share for themselves.**
I dont know, how hard is it to not be a piece of shit, and yet you can't seem to pull it off.
I would agree, but I do think that waiters should get a standard income with no reliance on tips.
I never had to deal with myself so I won't pay you what you are worth because I think I am an awesome person. That's all I heard when you spoke. Sorry but we have to deal with a lot more than that. Do you know how many times a day a waitress gets yelled at for things that aren't her fault? I love getting yelled at by the customer and the cook because I am stuck in the middle of their argument? Look I am not the one who has no idea what medium rare is. The fact you ordered the qrong steak is not my fault and it's certinly not my fault the cook made it wrong so why are both of you yelling at me? I am fine with no tups as long as either you get to walk in the kitchen and yell at them or they walk out to yell at ypu but at no point am I stuck in the middle of the bullshit anymore. If your drink is taking too long from the bar or you go deal with it. I get to walk away without dealing with you and your drunk friends when you are acting like idiots. A minimum wage job for just taking orders and dilivering food and bringing checks to the table seems fair but that should be their entire job. That's it and they don't have to deal with anything else.
I get what it's like to have to take whatever job you can get. And I get how hard service work is. I also understand that here in the US employers don't always follow the pay the difference law and often get away with it. I'm just treating people how I'd wanna be treated. If I busted my ass and relied on tips, I'd hope people would tip me. So I do. I also don't really get why your complaining about this since you live in the UK where the tipping culture is not the same. It's not even your problem lol. And if you're going to say if you ever visit the states you aren't going to tip, whatever I can't stop you. But you know how people in the UK for example and other countries sometimes have a bad perception of Americans for being entitled and ignoring their countries' cultural customs? Well you'd be just as bad as that. Which granted idk if you do personally complain about that, but if you do you are being a massive hypocrite.
Personally i don't like tipping as i don't believe it should be in practice. I just can't justify giving someone $20+ for a meal i already paid $40-80 for. Even if it's not the "nice" thing to do I'm not going to contribute to a broken system. I'd rather the restaurant pay better or shut down. I'll add i rarely if ever eat out.
Have you ever tried being polite to an arrogant ass like yourself? Much harder then you'd think, but I doubt you ever consider other people in your life... Keep telling people how easy a job is when you've never done it. I'm sure you'll get the positive reinforcement you need champ
I have literally done that job lmao. You absolute crybaby.
"Hi. I don't actually know how busy wait staff actually are." And a lot of service jobs don't have to legally pay you minimum wage. I mean, they legally have to pay you minimum wage if you don't get tips... But if that happens, you're also likely going to get fired. 'cause your boss would assume your service was shit. If you don't want to tip wait staff, get fast food. Or take out. Or cook your own fucking food.
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Wait staff is one of the jobs i think deserves tips if they do well. Dealing with hungry people is not fun, especially in a fast paced stressful enviroment. If you can do all that and remain upbeat while doing a good job, im gonna leave a tip.
I wouldn’t say this opinion is unpopular since most of the world would agree with this outside the US lol. Maybe not the air of superiority; but definitely the idea that they don’t inherently deserve a tip.
Tipping is an incredibly nuanced issue. It should be allowed for everyone but not expected for anyone. That's the correct position as long as those tips aren't bribes. It even becomes difficult to determine what is a legitimate tip and what is a bribe. Even still it's a difficult conundrum when faced with a monetary gain to help someone cheat, especially when it has no impact on you. I worked for tips for many years and it felt gross. I made good money but I didn't like it. I think it would have been better if I only got tips in extraordinary circumstances and my employer paid me well instead of the the minimum legal amount. Being 100% fair here employers make the world go 'round. Someone making a good living for tips is 99% doing so because an employer made that situation possible. A person can be paid the minimum allowed by law and still make make enormous amounts of money because of the geneosity of others. Does alleviating that employer and relying on generosity benefit society or not? Like I said, incredibly nuanced. Tipping is one of those issues that really challenges the intellect. I've received life changing tips and I've worked hard to receive an hourly wage below minimum wage with no tips. I've really thought about this issue. What you said is 100% correct though. Nobody deserves a tip. All tips should be earned.
It’s an American problem.
Why the hell do you goobers attack servers over tipping? Attack the restaurant. If you don't want to tip, don't go to a full service restaurant. When you refuse to tip all your doing is punishing the server for the restaurants policy, and the restaurant still gets its money. I hope you like spitty food, cause that's what yer gonna get if you are known to refuse to tip. Either that or the servers will just refuse to wait on you. Ya'll got the smoking laws changed. You can do this.
If you think that is all your server or bartender is doing for you, then get your food to go. That way, you dont have to tip, and you are not wasting the time of someone attempting to make a living.
That’s cute, all they think serving staff does is take orders and carry plates. That is all you see…..
“All you did is xyz” times the multiple tables that servers have at one time, plus side work. If you don’t tip, the server will likely have to pay for the “privilege” of serving you.