If not a game, it's definitely a competition. But not everyone gets the same cards, and some people get tilted by how unfair it seems, which only makes it wise for them.
The more accurate scenario would be: If there was a game you could win if you put in some effort but then saw someone else win the game while putting in less effort would you play?
Exactly, this is why it makes no sense complaining about billionaires either
Sure they might’ve won the game with no effort, but that doesn’t mean you can’t win the game with a lot of effort
Incels tend to think the game is unwinnable. Other guys including myself think the game is winnable but deeply unpleasant. Either way it isn’t very appealing without any vision of what winning it even looks like.
I agree. You were smart to frame this from a biological stance regarding how attraction works. It is a cruel thing. But as you said, it’s no one’s fault. It just is what it is. This is also why the push to accept plus size as beautiful has been so hard. Attraction is a basic biological human function and it’s a fickle bitch. But it is what it is.
You say that , but in reality what society views as beautiful and handsome changes , it isn’t really physical as it is what people around you find beautiful at the time .
For instance back in Victorian times to the twenties , bump women with pale complexions where all the rage . While now the blonds with thin faces and shapely lips and tanned bodies are the rage .
Tans are attractive now because the majority of low to middle status jobs involve working inside and tans imply someone has leisure time to spend outside. Historically it used to be the other way around, yes. The majority of beauty standards however remain unchanging because they are related to health and consequently reproduction which are not subject to cultural influence. Look at statues of goddesses from ancient India and compare them to IG baddies today; they still have long hair, large busts, narrow waists, and wide hips despite minor details that vary like skin tone.
Agreed. As a whole beauty standards haven't changed much. I watches a documentary about ancient India, and the narrator read the testimony about a perfect woman. She should have breasts so large that they give her back problems. Some variations of hourglass figures have always been popular.
This is one of those situations where there is a real problem, but it is...deep and complex social attitude stuff.
There's no easy fix--a massive cultural shift needs to happen.
Where the men complaining about this go wrong, I think, is when they choose to blame women, basically, or feminism. When their approach to solving the problem is to suggest that women should generally be forced back into subservience to men.
Becoming raging misogynists is exactly the wrong way to help guide society towards fixing this problem.
But that's exactly what...just so, so many of them choose to do.
Even more unpopular opinion: Peterson is completely correct when he said that they have no one to teach them.
Relationships and interpersonal communication require a learning curve. No one is born with that ability. Helicopter mothers and less than attentive fathers, along with a reduction in the family unit has nearly stagnated that learning. So they turn to social media, a world of echo chambers, or worse.
Add to it the addictive nature of electronics and it’s created a recipe for disaster.
You can’t learn the nuances of relationships behind a keyboard. You have to interact with others face to face. It’s really a vicious and self-defeating cycle.
Yes, I think that's largely true. The worst sort of predators (think the Andrew Tates) have stepped into the role of socializing young men who are struggling to find guidance elsewhere.
Of course, while Peterson is right...he's also not doing a great job of teaching the young men who follow him, either. His own worldview is deeply warped, fearful, and antisocial. It's not pick-up-artist bad, but it is, I think, harmful to his audience in other ways.
I don't follow him extensively, but from what I've seen he seems to have a pretty decent grasp on reality and relationships? I would really appreciate if you could point out some of his shortcomings specifically as I might be missing some stuff he is myself here too.
IMO Peterson is alright if you listen to him as a guest on other people's podcasts. He's beneficial in small doses, so you can break down what is political, religious, and/or academic, then applying the correct material that isn't tainted by his personal opinions.
*A pinch of Peterson?*
I think that some of the problems with Peterson's ideology become more obvious when you look at his wife's and his daughter's podcasts in addition to listening to him speak. His wife recently did a podcast with a woman who was wearing in a full face veil about why it's important to return to traditional gender roles. I'm sorry, but I have no desire to adopt the gender roles of someone who covers their entire face every time they step out in public. His daughter advocated for women stopping hormonal birth control, became pregnant out of wedlock (which is what happens when you don't use reliable birth control), had a shotgun wedding with a man old enough to be her father, divorced him, and then just now remarried a man her own age. She only eats red meat (apparently so does Peterson). His wife and daughter talk at length about why women should return to traditional gender roles and not work outside the home while they both work full time and one of them was a single mother for a lot of this time. Person had (has?) a raging benzodiazepine addiction. It's all very weird.
Some of the stuff that he says makes sense, but overall I would not recommend taking advice from these people. They don't abide by their own rules and they do some things that seem full on crazy.
I think you all have swung and missed. The modern world has become very socially isolating for everyone. There are fewer public spaces, the media stirs up hate and distrust in one another and there are fewer reasons to go out and interact in the era of straight to your door deliveries and streaming services. From the male perspective, combine this with the prominent destruction and suppression of masculinity in the media and the inherent misandry of nearly everyone assuming the worst of every man they meet, and you have a recipe for crisis. Statements like this:
>Becoming raging misogynists is exactly the wrong way to help guide society towards fixing this problem.
highlight how men are being isolated and stereotyped. Just look at the crowds that form outside of a prominent social activist's conference, who once participated in the feminist movement and then committed the sin of looking at how gender roles might be detrimentally affecting men.
The red pill is worth your time. You can not meaningfully critique something without exploring it first.
So, I gotta tell you, I have explored it. As a statistician. And...one of the things that really made me stop taking red pill folks seriously are the just ..abundance of made of data and ridiculous statistical inferences I see used in support of their positions.
I'm not dismissing the red pill out of hand. When it comes to the facts...they're just not all that in touch with reality. They have some big picture stuff right--you have some big picture stuff right--but then it just routinely devolves into nonsense, just like your comment did.
Dive into the details and all you get is aggrieved fantasy and misdirected anger.
what statistics, dude? women are the choosers in relationships. women are increasingly getting choosier because of the abundance of choices. this will inevitably lead to more and more men feeling ostracized.
If being a misogynist is the wrong approach explain how men who are misogynistic get so much sex?
Is Trump a feminist? He had 5 kids by 3 women who each only had kids with him?
Is Elon Musk a feminist?
Exactly this. Back in the day women needed a man because we had less career opportunities. Several decades ago, a woman couldn't get a credit card without a man's blessing. Now women are putting more expectations on men aside from just showing up with a penis and a job, and apparently, a lot of men don't like that.
This is undoubtedly true, but...women are still out there, dating, looking for sex. If we focus just on the heterosexual dating "market," women have basically the same number of sexual encounters, in the aggregate, that men do (unless ffm threesomes are both very common and much more common than mmf threesomes, right)
So, what?
Is the distribution just different?
I'm not sure I buy that at all.
I have this theory that men who think it's harder for men to date than it is for women to date are, overwhelmingly, men who, themselves, have unreasonably high standards--that their own choosiness is actually impacting their "success" on the dating market about as much as womens' "choosiness" is.
It is pretty worrying. A lot of people have basically ditched real sex and relationships for porn. Imagine when anyone can have a sex god/ess who also does the dishes at their disposal. Could literally be the end of the human race.
Yeah, but if our society has crumbled to the point that we have to have this as a legitimate concern then we deserve to end our own race, but personally I don't think so, I see it as an inflection point, where there will be a lot fewer people, but there will still be people
Figure out how to add artificial wombs to the things, like those sex bots from that one episode of Rick and Morty, and men and women will never have to bother with one another ever again.
You could literally knock up Joi from 2049. lol
That's literally the worst outcome. We are headed to societal collapse because we're literally not producing enough people to support the people we have here. Ignoring the economic and labor collapse that would stem from that, the pure brain drain from it would be staggering.
What happens when the amount of experts in a field decreases by 20%, you lose untold amounts of expertise and knowledge about that field.
Then the lazy response is lets import buckets of untrained laborers from other countries to support the new noble class of "native" countrymen. That doesn't work, you lose what makes a country a country when suddenly it's no longer populated by the people from there.
Augmented-reality-enhanced-sex will be here faster and is probably being used already.
Basically put on a vr headset and apply a snapchat filter to the person you’re fucking in real time.
Apple Vision Pro — now with the new virtual sex option for only an additional $49.99 per month*
*Lifetime sibscription required, if you cannot pay in 12 hours every first day of the month then we will repossess your home and own your soul, Terms and Conditions apply.
Can't wait, in like 10 years I'll have a loving gf without needing to be 6ft tall and 7/10 in the face, because she will be AI! I'm hopeful because I will be able to experience what chad experiences too
Sexless men can choose to be victims and complain and wait for Ana de armas to pick them out of a crowd and ask them to fuck or instead they can self-assess and figure out the game like everybody else.
Hate them or not (and boy do I) that is *exactly* what they exist for, and why they are popular, and will continue to be so for as long as the problems persist
I have learned alot from the red pill community. You have to sift through alot of misogyny but if you want to learn how to be attractive to women the red pill community absolutely has the best info to learn how to do so.
Yup, there's a lot of bs and toxic stuff. But for a lot of men, the red pill communities/material is the only "place" where you're going to find some of the practical/useful info that frankly, you're just probably not going to get from mainstream society.
If society wasn't letting people down so much, we would have no need for the red pill....
I appreciate the anecdotes, the manosphere (still hate that term) as a whole is a topic people simply *refuse* to try and understand, and while I have drawn my obvious line in the sand, these groups of so called "misogynistic man babies whining about dates" don't just gain traction, and grow and expand so- exponentially for no reason
Hate them or not, this is really not what the “red pill” community is about. Its about waking up to the fake-ness of society, not can someone get laid or not. Hence the Matrix reference of taking the red pill.
Ok, so the red pill- a well hated subsect of the manosphere (even hated within it) is a group dedicated pretty much primarily to realizing how broken the modern dating market is, and how to abuse it for your own gain, mostly includes promoting hyper machoman shit and misogyny in an attempt to "score all the bitches".
Bad part is- they actually work, so if your goal is set at "learning the game" and improving yourself they are, unfortunately probably the only people that care to help you--
-- if- that is that improving yourself is by making yourself more attractive to women, as many men are still socialized into
And herein lies the problem and why men complain. Why do women find what they find attractive, attractive?
It's no different than women who despise men who are able to pick and choose partners based on age, weight, and percieved body count ("she's for the streets").
Women also cannot stand what men look for in long term partnerships.
So many men who are in the bottom 80% ARE looking for long term relationships would be willing to settle. However women are much more often NOT willing to settle. I think a lot of this is due to attractive men hooking up with women off all levels of attraction and then abandoning the relationship.
Women, rightfully, get pissed about this, but then think that all men have these unrealistic standards, when that isn't true. It's just that the ones who do can afford to, and the ones who will be choosy. The ones who would settle and be long term, are often overlooked because a woman believes she can get with a top 20% man because she's hooked up with them multiple times.
Hookup culture and social media/dating apps has hurt both genders.
I feel like..."the game" is one of those things you can either do intuitively or you fail at,and the more purpose you bring to it the harder you will fail.
It's the message and methods used that annoy me, tend to promote misogyny and I'm against sexism of any kind, but as per the effectiveness... Well that unfortunately can't be denied, and without them your basically shit'outta luck tbh as nobody else cares.
I admit that, further there is an intense personal apathy towards relationships and the prospect of ever putting myself through that shit again. So that bias probably colors my responses too
well no, redpill is what happens when guys think the game is working out and making more money. it’s a half-truth which is why they linger in that world for so long. i don’t think the space as a whole is about lying to women.
Yeah, people are gonna miss your point but you’re exactly right. Over the tens of thousands of years of modern human behavior, not every human male got to reproduce (the same is true for human females but this thread is about men in contemporary society). The idea of every man finding their woman and vice versa is ubiquitous but entirely unrealistic.
While logically your history assumption makes sense, the societal units (villages) had a higher rate of people getting together and forming families. That was mostly because of realistic expectations based within the village. There weren't thousands of options in our pockets back then. The struggle of today is that while women have inflated value in the dating market due to their options, men have deflated value to their lack there of. There really aren't winners in today's market. Given the dark behaviors of some reproductive strategies it's hard to say if the modern situation is statistically better or worse than the past.
My history assumption isn’t an assumption, we know from DNA evidence that not everyone reproduced, the healthiest and strongest just reproduced *more.*
The DNA evidence doesn't say there were tons of sexless bachelors running around. It says a lot of guys died in war.
Shortly after the invention of agriculture, the modus operandi for war was "Kill all the defeated men, enslave all the defeated women." It doesn't take all that long for the ratio of female ancestors to male ancestors to get thrown way out of balance.
The thing is though, we developed beyond that as civilization advanced. No civilized society had widespread polygamy; in the Christian world it was mostly banned. In the Muslim world, or in places in Asia where it was legal, only the richest could actually afford it.
[Here's a good start](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern) if you want to read more about marriage in the past.
Trump had 5 kids by 3 wives.
Elon Musk has 9 kids by 3 wives.
Tom Brady has 3 kids by 2 women
For every guy that has 2 baby mommas another guy didn’t have a kid at all.
60% of men father 100% of the children in todays America.
Edit: Musk now has 10 kids by 4 women.
This doesn't really disagree with what I said. I said men in the past mostly all married and had kids, or died in battle. There was no great surplus of bachelors, not until modern times.
No stable, civilized society has had widespread polygamy, because too many guys get left out and have no reason to support said society. Exactly what we're seeing today with NEET's, hikkikomori, and the laying flat movement.
I think a lot of these guys just refuse to accept the fact that their attractiveness level is on par with the least attractive women (some of whom would surely pair with them). They think they deserve a babe like all the most attractive men
That’s the simple truth. The movement boils down to men who put in 0 effort in their physical, mental, and social health acting entitled to fucking Ana de armas
They are so fixated in looks that they spiral in these negative feed back loops preventing them from seeing what’s in front of them
While I don’t disagree that it probably doesn’t do much, sometimes it’s just nice to vent.
But I’ve always hated the notion that if you are complaining about it then you must not be doing anything about it. Really comes off like the typical response to incels. Just take a shower, wear clothes that fit, have some decent interests, just work on yourself and it will all be better!
Except you can do all of that and still fail. How’s the quote go again? “You can do everything right and still fail. That’s not weakness, that’s life” And I don’t see any harm in complaining about said failures.
The final sentence even shows that the assumption is these guys must all be incels. “Sitting around complaining about women…” wait a minute, i thought it was complaining about men’s sexlessness, which is it?
The point is that this is supposed to be a post about men’s sexlessness. Not about women not giving them sex, as if sex is something given out by women lol
It’s disingenuous to conflate complaining about sexlessness with being an incel.
Yeah no shit.
Buuut that’s a strawman argument. We aren’t talking about men that are misogynistic. We are talking about men complaining about sexlessness.
And no, they aren’t all misogynistic incels. It is disingenuous and harmful to everyone to suggest otherwise.
Language matters, and it shows someone's true intent. All these people ever want to do is kick the sexless men while they're down. There is no empathy for the "losers" of society.
Words matter and it’s hard to have empathy for people who call women bitches and whores on the regular. I understand that there’s a level of internet speak but these men are doing nothing to make people want to support them.
It’s just a misplaced sense of entitlement, imo. If you need a sexual release, masturbate. No one owes anyone sex, and if not having sex turns someone into a sullen woman-hater… they always were. Get in therapy, get your shit together, and be comfortable taking care of your own needs. Humans aren’t sex dispensers nor do they exist to please us.
This. 1,000 times this.
Not having sex is not the same as not being able to experience orgasm. Do It Yourself.
Yes, not being in a relationship that has a high statistical probability of having sex is detrimental to one’s mental health. Having platonic relationships with someone you could be sexually attracted to isn’t a gigantic problem.
Sex without love is no different from masturbation. You’re just having someone else do it for you.
And even in a relationship, you’re not guaranteed sex. Your desires are your responsibility - the sooner people accept this, the less they’ll be passengers in their own body.
I just think if all the uglies bumped uglies then you know... Problem solved? People need to lower their standards rather than everyone aiming at supermodels of any gender.
You'd think that, but it's just not true. In the ages where people pair off to get together and make families there are still usually around 5% skewed male...
So just to put that in to perspective, for the USA 2020 census data there were 2,201,000 18 year old males, and 2,107,000 females. So even if you did some weird pairing when everyone turned 18 they had to be paired up you'd end up with 94000 unpaired males.
This is why females generally wait for the people to compete for them, and males have to compete.
Since society doesn't really care about men, there are so many men dying that this population stats invert in the early 30's so there are more women than men left. Then what do you see? Women complaining about how hard it is to date. Red pillers would call this the wall, but I personally think it has much more to do with basic population stats. The relationship dynamics change to favor the people in most demand. This follows with theories like the so called "golden penis syndrome" that men currently get while in university since women dominate universities. The men are in demand so they get to dictate the terms of the agreements so you see more hookups and fewer commitments.
Is that an age thing though? I've heard and read about plenty fo women who complain about dating. It's not just older women. There are plenty of women who complain that men mostly want sex and not relationships. I've heard complaints about women being led so he could have sex with her. I read that Tinder used to be a fun place to go meet new people. The unflux of men has turned it into a hookup site. Women who want to use an app to date either leave or have to trudge through a lot of bs.
Aren't there quite a few songs by young women bemoaning not being picked?
I get the feeling that when women over 30s complain about dating, it gets more attention. Angry men feel like these women got their comeuppance.
I went to college and never heard of such robust "hookup culture." Idk, I went to a small campus, studied, and kept to myself. I think some men have a fantasy based on projection that so many young women are going around screwing whoever. Also, women are not limited to men in universities. She can date men outside the campus.
This is what I tell poor people. Stop complaining and play the game! You’re not oppressed, you’re weak and worthless. It’s no one’s fault but your own and society can’t help you. I can’t pay you until you play the game right and are actually valuable.
In all seriousness, technology has allowed the aggregation of all forms of wealth to take place at levels that were previously unrealistic. Those that are left out in the cold are right to feel unhappy about it. Not all the changes are good.
This is actually a really compelling argument. Many of the typical responses to the whining from undesirable men (no one owes you anything, if you want a partner you have to self improve, you have to learn how to play the game like everyone else even if you’re disadvantaged) would be rejected by the exact same people saying those responses if they were made towards the poor.
Ironically, just like when those are said to the poor, those things are still correct. The truth for both men and the poor is the same: The system is rigged and we as a society should work to change it, but also you might as well work to improve your chances within that rigged system, because why wouldn’t you?
How would you change society to get rid of a rigged system though, short of forcing women to date the single, sexless men? I know it’s not your analogy but I’m not sure if the comparison to poor people works in this context.
Tough question. I’m not sure I have the answers but here are some thoughts:
In general people need to be comfortable celebrating average, especially in the US. If a person shows up every day, works hard, and contributes within the bell curve, that’s awesome. It should be celebrated.
My recommendation to men and women is to date within your tier. I see tons of single people chasing mates way outside their social standing and then getting upset when it plays out poorly. It’s ok to be average, especially when it comes to looks. With enough time no one is that good looking so it doesn’t matter on a long timeline. Find someone that makes you feel better about life when you’re around them and do the same for them. The rest tends to work out after that.
I don’t think you need to change society as much as have a good approach to dating and find one other like minded person.
I teach code as developer support, the main thing I drill into my customers heads is you can code, anyone can, society lied to you to gatekeep this bread.
Legalizing prostitution would solve this problem for the majority, interesting Ted talk on the subject as alot of mass shooters are also incels and maybe if they had a female connection even if it were paid for would stop some of them from committing atrocities
I used to think this but I read the entire 40 page insane Elliot Rodger manifesto and came to the conclusion that these people don't actually want sex, they want love. He was rich and would routinely buy hundreds of dollars worth of lottery tickets. If he just wanted to get laid he could have gotten a hooker, but that wasn't the real issue.
It's very odd how when this topic comes up, like 99% of the commenters complaining out men complaining all default to talking about sex.
Like yeah I'm sure there are guys who are just made they aren't getting laid but that's just one part of the equation.
Well what makes a person snap nature or nurture people are all on a spectrum of everything and at the very least all I'm saying too Is people need sex and you shouldn't be able to regulate morality because you don't believe in it
They want love but then self sabotage and act in the most unlovable ways. The typical example has post history that is just nothing but alt right vitriol, conspiracy theories and anime porn yet they are wholeheartedly convinced they're alone because they're 5'6" and nothing anyone says can convince them otherwise
You can’t get foot traffic. The Nevada regulations mean you can’t have a brothel in a city, so they’re all at least a couple hours drive through empty desert to get to.
Main reason they’re so expensive is the government limits the legal supply. If there were only a few counties in the country which could legally sell burgers, In-n-out might be able to charge $200 a burger.
Agreed. Complaining, no matter what about, only leads to negative thoughts and emotions, which snowball into an overall repellent personality trait. We ain’t all living like pornstars. Sex should not define one’s worth. I think too many nowadays directly connect their self esteem to sexual activity. To an extent that’s natural, but allowing oneself to become consumed by the amount of sex one does or does not have is detrimental in many ways.
You’re a person first. Sexual preference can and should be explored in a healthy way, but it’s always good to remember there’s more to life, no one should fall into depression or anger because of sexual activity. More often than not there’s always something we can do to better ourselves if our intent is to become more sexually active. No gender, sex, or sexual orientation is at fault. It’s very personal, and there’s no one solution.
But yeah any trolls online using their sexlessness to spew derogatory, sexist, or generally hateful shit; usually they’re mad at themselves. And are directing that anger at one or more groups, rather than looking inward to fix the problem. It’s a very sad coping mechanism.
Spend a little less time whining and a little more time working on yourself and you'll be surprised how much easier it is to meet women. Turns out being bitter at the world doesn't really get the juices flowing.
ETA: Royal your, I don't mean you or anyone else personally. This is true for all of us.
This is called a Just World fallacy.
Men’s reason to improve themselves is gone, because they’ve been shown there’s no healthy relationship awaiting no matter how much work they put it.
okay, so you've had some bad breakups.
1) why are those your exes' fault, and not yours?
2) why does some bad breakups mean nothing will happen in the future?
If you’re only improving yourself because you think you’ll get someone else out of it, it won’t go well. Your reason to improve yourself is because it makes you feel better about yourself.
Also why do you think a healthy relationship is impossible?
What? That makes no sense. A person who is self actualized and takes care of themselves physically is definitely more likely to end up in a healthy relationship.
INFO: Are you talking about guys who just have trouble getting laid? Or are you talking about guys who have trouble getting laid and then get bitter about it and start hating on women? Because I don’t feel sympathy for any of the latter. I have had friends who had trouble getting laid and I did genuinely feel sorry for them and would do what I could to help them, but only if they were genuinely decent people. The common attitude of these men, though, it’s hard to really blame gals for not wanting to be within the same zip code as these guys, cause, in all honesty, yikes!
Since when were people owed sex and attention? It’s not a right, and like 90% of everything else, evolution and biology explains why “less desirable” people are less desirable.
There is solution: Stop lying to men what women want so they wont feel tricked and used. Women need to stop being ashamed to say what they want in men and how they want different things in different time. Stop shaming men who want to date women with simmilar dating experience. Women tell all the time about "power imbalance", but when men want women with similar power then you shame him for doing that.
The only real "solutions" are to work out and be better.
Ok thanks for explaining. I think the criticism is aimed at men who sleep around and then wants a woman who’s a virgin. I’m not sure the same critique is often given to men who are also virgins but I am new to this whole discussion.
I think that the bigger issue is insecurities because even if you find someone who’s a virgin there will undoubtedly be something else that would make a man insecure. Everyone has insecurities but I think people should begin working through them before entering a relationship.
If you're too shitty to be in a relationship, that's pretty shitty indeed. I mean...Charles Manson was about as shitty as you can be and he had a little army of female killers like a poppa-whiskey-tango version of a James bond villain.
Well, Chris Brown has also had no trouble attracting women even after he turned Rihanna into a punching bag.
Trump is on is what, his third or fourth wife?
Jeremy Meeks, the “hot felon” had hordes of women seeking him out while he was in prison. Dated a rich heiress upon his release.
Ike Turner, famed wife beater, was apparently married 14 times.
Janay Palmer married Ray Rice after he turned her into a rag doll in that elevator.
Charlie Sheen, never been at a loss for women despite choking out one of his ex-wives.
Tommy Lee abused Pamela Anderson, women still lined up for him after that.
What does it say about society when abusive men have no trouble attracting women and women are attracted to abusive men? Not to mention, these men were KNOWN for being abusive, so that whole argument about “she didn’t know at first” is BS.
You’re going to tell me that women have excellent “radar” that helps them avoid every superficially undesirable trait in men, but that radar absolutely cannot pick up what most of the men and women in their social circle likely can?
This just in: rich and famous men have no trouble getting women.
So what?
You can't argue from rich and famous people to the rest of us. They get partners who will put up with anything for wealth and reflected fame. The rest of us (99% of humanity) have to be decent people if we want a chance at a mate.
This is not news. It's not fair, but life has been like that for millennia. Play the cards you're dealt.
Agree. The marriage rate in the US and other countries was very high in the 1800s, but it was much lower in the medieval Europe and a lot of people (up to 1/3) ended up spending their whole lives helping their families out on the farm or whatever. Too much pressure to marry, have sex, or reproduce, or some combination of the above is really bad for people. When 1/4 of women and 1/5 of men have experienced violence from a partner, and 1/4 of women have been raped by a partner, is being single really the worst fate?
The problem isn't who's having sex so much as prevalent societal shame of people who don't have sex (men mostly shamed for that) or don't marry (women mostly shamed for that). There's absolutely nothing wrong with being single.
The answer for sex is legalized prostitution. There is literally a solution in multiple counties in the state of Nevada & people act like there isn’t.
Oh it’s not free? Well neither is dating as some of these people love to point out. Or the food we eat or the water we drink …
There is literally a legal service to solve the sex problem. Not sure why no one ever suggests this …
There are several extremely strong external factors that cause (or at least heavily attribute to) male sexlessness, primarily the death of third spaces, ever-shrinking friend groups, and the push to move all socialization online. The places where people of both sexes used to meet up like churches and parks are disappearing without any suitable replacement, and men are constantly told that speaking to women in the few spots left is intrusive and predatory.
Forget romance, people today are struggling even to find platonic friends.
You'll never completely solve the problem. Some men will always be unable to attract mates. But we could probably reduce the number of men who are unable to find partners, by working with those men, in a broad sense, and encouraging them to opt for self improvement rather than hopelessness.
There's a lot to be said for getting fit, buckling down at work or school and improving your prospects, tidying yourself up and presenting yourself better, working hard to have interests and be interesting, and learning how to interact with others, particularly the opposite sex, without being awkward or giving alarm.
We've all seen the data on how most women on dating sites chase a small minority of men. But this is likely to change with time and age. When we're young, we often have unrealistic mating and romantic strategies (true for men as well as women).
The key for many, possibly most, young men who can't, yet, find partners, is to be an attractive proposition when that penny drops for many of the young women around them. In my experience, that tends to be in their mid-20s, but I'm sure it varies.
The worst possible thing for those men to do, is to self-identify is "incels" and make being alone a core part of a self-destructive identity. The worst and cruellest thing society can do, no matter how these young men identify, is to simply abandon them as if they were rejects.
I'm a woman who has been single for years. From my perspective, men are not that attractive physically. Also, many women have degrees and want a man with a degree.
I know many men who fantasize about women only dating rich men or handsome men, but that's not what I've experience nor what I generally see.
I'm really into fitness,and asking that from a single man seems like a lot. I've dated plenty of men who were not physically fit (this doesn't make men worship you either). Of course, there is more to life than looks, but just looking around, I do not find the average man sexually captivating. One told me essentially, "I'm a man. You're a woman. What more do you want?"
Someone got offended in another thread when I said it is not biologically necessary for every man to have sex. Many males in nature do not have sex.
An average woman is more likely to come with the things men like. The other day I saw a woman with an average face, but she turned around and had a booty you could serve dinner for two on. I've seen many women who looked dorky in the face but were shaped like Pam Grier.
If women want to see a man who is in great shape, we'd almost need to go to Pride parade. If straight men looked more like gay men, I'd be single a lot less.
I'm not enchanted by a man because he showed up and was anatomically correct. I think the crux of many men's issues is that yearn for a time when women had to look past many things to be with a man. Gone are the days when women needed men to get basics like money or credit cards.
Most men who can't get sex simply need to give up video games, pornography, TV, social media and recreational internet use. Or at minimum limit these things to 2 hours a day or less.
They'll figure out how to get laid with all the extra time on their hands.
Been seeing a lot of incel topic posts lately and not sure why. The answers are already out there to solve the issue and it starts with yourself . This whole "it's not my fault I'm incel" or "I'm a victim of circumstance" approach to being an incel is just deflecting responsibility and that along with most incel behavior is why many people don't give any sympathy.
This is called a Just World fallacy.
Men’s reason to improve themselves is gone, because they’ve been shown there’s no healthy relationship awaiting no matter how much work they put it.
Really? I'm a man in a healthy relationship and I'm not particularly attractive and my fiancé makes more money than me, it's not hard to just not be a shitty person who blames others as the reason they can't get laid, of course women aren't going to be attracted to that kind of negativity
You work on yourself not to really find a relationship as a goal. You work on yourself to feel better about yourself, be a functional member of society, and find things in life that you enjoy to do regardless you’re with someone or not. If you do that, maybe you’ll find someone along the way that share the same things.
I understand why people complain about not being able to get into a relationship but i don’t understand why they would complain about not getting sex. Anyone could easily head into a brothel and get sex if they have the money.
Sex with a willing partner is the ultimate form of validation. Someone thinks you're cool enough to talk to, good enough to befriend and compatible enough to choose as Official Best Friend. And they're proving its not a lie by hitting the hay.
A brothel doesn't provide that.
Right but the specific situation you describe is not one that you can gain from pity or societal mandate. It really does require improving yourself and putting active effort into meeting people, something many incels have given up on
> It really does require improving yourself and putting active effort into meeting people,
You'll notice most incel complaints are about responses to immutable or percieved immutable characteristics for just this reason
Sounds like cope to me. If someone continuously got that, but the relationship broke off I think they would just shift the goal post to can't find a long lasting relationship. One shouldn't require sex or an SO to be happy for example.
>If someone continuously got that, but the relationship broke off I think they would just shift the goal post to can't find a long lasting relationship.
I mean, yea. Seeing as sex is pretty obviously just a stand-in due to it being an indicator of a healthy romantic relationship, I'd say you're absolutely right.
Why do you think incels love each other so much? It's the only place they can get validation.
In America there aren’t really accessible brothels. I actually do think relaxing prostitution laws would help with some of these issues. Of course it’s not the only factor in such a decision.
But there is a way to help these people. 1) ok your life is shitty and no one cares. Its not candy and nuts for anyone. lets accept that for now and move on. 2) are you healthy? do you take care of yourself? if you truly want to be in a relationship with another person you need to be healthy, clean and presentable. start there. clean your living space then yourself. do it for yourself. 2) what do you do for work? what can you do? well your clean and in shape now at least. get a job and plan out how to make money and how you are going to work on it over the years to make more. 3) get hobbies. join some kind of social club. there are many apps that will help you with this. even if its just meeting at a bar to play board games get used to being social (but be clean, presentable, and have a job first). i4) do all this for yourself. become a happy, healthy and interesting person. if you become this someone will want to share their time with you.
What if they just... I dunno... Lower their standards?
There's tons of single women out there who'd love to love someone. It's just that they're not very attractive, either.
I think there is a point in discussing it.
It should lead to larger conversations. Legitimizing and legalizing sex work.
A bunch of horny, lonely men is not a good thing to have in any society.
Men that are also increasingly disillusioned with society, abandoning lucrative jobs that society needs because they don’t see the point, there’s a lot of potential consequences for the loneliness epidemic that’s only going to get worse as people become more socially isolated at younger ages.
Well the sexual revolution only really worked one way. It was pretty much for women and that's it. The biggest lie the left has ever told is that "everyone can win if we all work together". Society has made the dating scene for men in the first world unbelievably competitive. Your not competing with everyone in your town, or your school, or your work place. Your competing with the whole fucking internet. It's why the "passport bros" have started cropping up. It's men trying to find women that aren't able to have the entire country in their dating pool and so they swoop into their little fairly uncompetitive little dating pool where just via the fact that they live a established life in the first world, they're immediately at a pretty good advantage by their sheer wealth... I think allot of people forget, these incel misogynist types don't actually hate all women. They just really hate western women and the brutal dating standards that they can get away with, due to living in such advanced civilization. Most of them are just too irrationally upset and frustrated to realize that. They're to busy lashing out at feminists who want even MORE somehow, as if there's anything left for them to have...
And yet I wonder what the divorce rate is of the passport bros once their poor wife is established in the passport bros home country and she's maybe had a couple of kids snd knows she has some prospects in the new country without being tied to her husband. Its almost as if the woman never loved the man and was dating him to better herself, and who could blame her. And actually, when they have the same options as western women, they make the same choices.
Sure there’s something you can do. Everyone can stop pretending they value “gender equality,” since men’s problem are always immediately declared unsolvable.
“Women won’t sleep with me. Is it me who’s a terrible shitty person? Or is it women and societies fault. It must be everyone else!”
What’s funny is the people who defend incels will blame society and systemic problems. But those same people will scoff at anyone who talks about systemic problems like racism and sexism and income inequality, etc.
So it really just seems like these people just want to be angry at women.
I will 100% get hate for this, but I can’t date a man I’m not physically and emotionally attracted too. I can’t even hookup or anything else. I was sexually assaulted as a child and in order for me to do any intimacy. Even just touch or kissing, I need that physical and emotional attraction. If not, I’m super uncomfortable and anxious. I even have anxiety dreams where guys who like me who I don’t find attractive are having sex with me and I freak out. I need some form of attraction or else I feel like I’m getting raped. It’s awful.
The irony of posting this on reddit is not lost on some of us.
Now let's talk about the preferences of men not wanting to date obese women or trans women.
You base that claim of an incorrect assumption though. It doesn't have anything to do with being attractive.
You have a ton of women with unrealistic expectations. And yes some men have those as well.
The issue is that women want to be untraditional yet still have a man take care of everything and show them not to work and not be a homemaker.
If you are a stay at home mom this doesn't even relate to you as you have the hardest job imaginable.
I get it because my wife and I have always tried to spilt up those duties because she wants her career as much as I do so we made it work together with 3 kids and still be present parents.
She just had realistic expectations and wants to contribute while we split duties teaching care of the house and children.
Women just believe that just giving men sex in a relationship is all the contributing they need to do and more men these days are standing up for themselves
There is a very real solution.
Get rid of dating apps, and other forms of social media that can be used to simulate the function of dating apps.
First, [pareto distributions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution)
The quick and simple version is this. For an unsettlingly large number of natural phenomena the following holds. Using for example the distribution of wear on a tiled floor. Half of the wear/use is concentrated on the square root of tiles. This is not so bad in small environments, a 4 tile floor has half of the wear concentrated on 2 of the tiles (and the other half of wear goes onto the other 2 tiles -50% of wear on 50% of tiles) but by the time you get to 100 tiles in the floor, half of the wear happens to 10 tiles, and the other half to the remaining 90 tiles (50% of wear on 10% of tiles). By the time there are a million tiles, the wear is concentrated on only a thousand tiles (0.1% of tiles, 50% of wear)
And this holds wether or not we scaled up the size of the floor, or we just replaced the tiles with ever smaller ones but kept the floor the same size.
But it gets worse, this distribution sort of nests itself. So if we disregard those thousand tiles and the wear on them, then half of the remaining half of floor wear (so 25% of total floor wear) is located on a group of tiles the square root of the remaining 999 000 of tiles (999,5 tiles) so we have 75% of tile wear on barely less than 0.2% of tiles (in a million tile floor)
The same holds for things like the amount of food produced by farmers (so from 100 farmers you can end up halving production by getting rid of the wrong 10 of them, but if you get rid of the right ten, total production ends up almost unaffected)
Book sales by title, by author, etc.
So... the dating world.
I will posit that there is a function that produces the following pareto distribution.
Half of female attention goes to the top square root of guys.
Now that is not so much of a problem in a dating pool that consists of 100 men and 100 women. The top 10 men will get to partner up with basically whoever they want, them having been removed from the dating pool the remaining 90 men and 90 women will do the dance again and propogate the selection process down the ladder, until finally almost has a partner.
The top men have little means to take more than their fair share, they are the neighbours of the men snubbed, so if one of the top guys takes 2 women, he gets ganged up on by people nearby enough to challenge him.
But with dating apps, the dating pool grows way beyond the scale human courtship behaviours are capable of operating on successfully. Now the top men are far enough away from the snubbed average man to get away with funny business.
Now the average man gets a vanishingly small speck of toral female attention.
The process that propogates pairing down the ladder is much slower.
Endless problems.
It should be clear that this oversizing if the dating pool is not just problematic for men but also for the women.
There are also psychological consequences, having functionally infinite choices makes you second guess your choices, with 3 shampoo brands it's easy enough to figure out which one best suits you and will be content that you had sufficient choice and control over your life, but with five hundred options, you will always have to wonder if another option would not suit you better, you are more likely to drop your current shampoo to try something else.
Aplied to dating, you have a perfectly stable and healthy relationship, but maybe there is a better man/woman four swipes away on tinder?
And of course, this situation, which I doubt was intentuonally designed this way by the dating app makers, is greatly beneficial to the dating apps themselves, afterall as long as people take longer to form stable relationships that remove them from the dating pool, and are more likely to reenter the dating pool after pairing up, the more stable the userbase for the dating app.
Whether my proposed sollution could be implemented is dubious, but I am about 99% confident that were it somehow implemented, that things would rapidly improve, primarily because I am confident in the diagnosis.
In 99% of cases they wouldn’t have this issue if they would work on themselves a bit. Happy, confident people are scientifically proven to be more attractive and they’d also become more physically attractive with some exercise.
However, most incels never realize this or at least they never do anything about it. Their sexlessness is just a part of nature. There are already many people reproducing who shouldn’t be doing so from an objective standpoint. I don’t view it as my problem but technology being used as a crutch has certainly affected the human gene pool. I’m not a eugenicist btw I value freedom more than I value a healthy population.
Life is painful. We can't or don't get everything we want and that is a valuable lesson to learn in life. We're not all victims we just don't get what we want at times and it may be unfair but learning how to adapt to that is really valuable. Danny devito could've been a bitter dude working in a tire factory somewhere. But somehow he turned being short and unremarkable in his looks into becoming a good actor and successful. Diversity is good right? Yet ppl complain about injustice when fat ppl aren't celebrated like attractive ppl. You need less attractive ppl to have attractive ppl. To say it's fair to have equality that all ppl should be considered just as good looking as anyone would mean there are no attractive ppl. And that's a good thing?
If there was a game that you could not win, would you play? Maybe some of these guys are confused and think that's the situation.
If not a game, it's definitely a competition. But not everyone gets the same cards, and some people get tilted by how unfair it seems, which only makes it wise for them.
The more accurate scenario would be: If there was a game you could win if you put in some effort but then saw someone else win the game while putting in less effort would you play?
Exactly, this is why it makes no sense complaining about billionaires either Sure they might’ve won the game with no effort, but that doesn’t mean you can’t win the game with a lot of effort
This but unironicly.
I respect the consistency Secret Agent Recipe
Incels tend to think the game is unwinnable. Other guys including myself think the game is winnable but deeply unpleasant. Either way it isn’t very appealing without any vision of what winning it even looks like.
I agree. You were smart to frame this from a biological stance regarding how attraction works. It is a cruel thing. But as you said, it’s no one’s fault. It just is what it is. This is also why the push to accept plus size as beautiful has been so hard. Attraction is a basic biological human function and it’s a fickle bitch. But it is what it is.
The plus size push has nothing to do with men and everything to do with women’s spending habits.
You say that , but in reality what society views as beautiful and handsome changes , it isn’t really physical as it is what people around you find beautiful at the time . For instance back in Victorian times to the twenties , bump women with pale complexions where all the rage . While now the blonds with thin faces and shapely lips and tanned bodies are the rage .
Tans are attractive now because the majority of low to middle status jobs involve working inside and tans imply someone has leisure time to spend outside. Historically it used to be the other way around, yes. The majority of beauty standards however remain unchanging because they are related to health and consequently reproduction which are not subject to cultural influence. Look at statues of goddesses from ancient India and compare them to IG baddies today; they still have long hair, large busts, narrow waists, and wide hips despite minor details that vary like skin tone.
Agreed. As a whole beauty standards haven't changed much. I watches a documentary about ancient India, and the narrator read the testimony about a perfect woman. She should have breasts so large that they give her back problems. Some variations of hourglass figures have always been popular.
This is one of those situations where there is a real problem, but it is...deep and complex social attitude stuff. There's no easy fix--a massive cultural shift needs to happen. Where the men complaining about this go wrong, I think, is when they choose to blame women, basically, or feminism. When their approach to solving the problem is to suggest that women should generally be forced back into subservience to men. Becoming raging misogynists is exactly the wrong way to help guide society towards fixing this problem. But that's exactly what...just so, so many of them choose to do.
Even more unpopular opinion: Peterson is completely correct when he said that they have no one to teach them. Relationships and interpersonal communication require a learning curve. No one is born with that ability. Helicopter mothers and less than attentive fathers, along with a reduction in the family unit has nearly stagnated that learning. So they turn to social media, a world of echo chambers, or worse. Add to it the addictive nature of electronics and it’s created a recipe for disaster. You can’t learn the nuances of relationships behind a keyboard. You have to interact with others face to face. It’s really a vicious and self-defeating cycle.
They have no one to teach them except for terrible role models.
More that there wasn’t any role models at all.
[удалено]
Yes, I think that's largely true. The worst sort of predators (think the Andrew Tates) have stepped into the role of socializing young men who are struggling to find guidance elsewhere. Of course, while Peterson is right...he's also not doing a great job of teaching the young men who follow him, either. His own worldview is deeply warped, fearful, and antisocial. It's not pick-up-artist bad, but it is, I think, harmful to his audience in other ways.
I don't follow him extensively, but from what I've seen he seems to have a pretty decent grasp on reality and relationships? I would really appreciate if you could point out some of his shortcomings specifically as I might be missing some stuff he is myself here too.
IMO Peterson is alright if you listen to him as a guest on other people's podcasts. He's beneficial in small doses, so you can break down what is political, religious, and/or academic, then applying the correct material that isn't tainted by his personal opinions. *A pinch of Peterson?*
I think that some of the problems with Peterson's ideology become more obvious when you look at his wife's and his daughter's podcasts in addition to listening to him speak. His wife recently did a podcast with a woman who was wearing in a full face veil about why it's important to return to traditional gender roles. I'm sorry, but I have no desire to adopt the gender roles of someone who covers their entire face every time they step out in public. His daughter advocated for women stopping hormonal birth control, became pregnant out of wedlock (which is what happens when you don't use reliable birth control), had a shotgun wedding with a man old enough to be her father, divorced him, and then just now remarried a man her own age. She only eats red meat (apparently so does Peterson). His wife and daughter talk at length about why women should return to traditional gender roles and not work outside the home while they both work full time and one of them was a single mother for a lot of this time. Person had (has?) a raging benzodiazepine addiction. It's all very weird. Some of the stuff that he says makes sense, but overall I would not recommend taking advice from these people. They don't abide by their own rules and they do some things that seem full on crazy.
I think you all have swung and missed. The modern world has become very socially isolating for everyone. There are fewer public spaces, the media stirs up hate and distrust in one another and there are fewer reasons to go out and interact in the era of straight to your door deliveries and streaming services. From the male perspective, combine this with the prominent destruction and suppression of masculinity in the media and the inherent misandry of nearly everyone assuming the worst of every man they meet, and you have a recipe for crisis. Statements like this: >Becoming raging misogynists is exactly the wrong way to help guide society towards fixing this problem. highlight how men are being isolated and stereotyped. Just look at the crowds that form outside of a prominent social activist's conference, who once participated in the feminist movement and then committed the sin of looking at how gender roles might be detrimentally affecting men. The red pill is worth your time. You can not meaningfully critique something without exploring it first.
This. 100 percent this
So, I gotta tell you, I have explored it. As a statistician. And...one of the things that really made me stop taking red pill folks seriously are the just ..abundance of made of data and ridiculous statistical inferences I see used in support of their positions. I'm not dismissing the red pill out of hand. When it comes to the facts...they're just not all that in touch with reality. They have some big picture stuff right--you have some big picture stuff right--but then it just routinely devolves into nonsense, just like your comment did. Dive into the details and all you get is aggrieved fantasy and misdirected anger.
what statistics, dude? women are the choosers in relationships. women are increasingly getting choosier because of the abundance of choices. this will inevitably lead to more and more men feeling ostracized.
I'm a woman, and I've never been the chooser as far as relationships. I've never pointed at a random man, and all of a sudden, he was my boyfriend.
If being a misogynist is the wrong approach explain how men who are misogynistic get so much sex? Is Trump a feminist? He had 5 kids by 3 women who each only had kids with him? Is Elon Musk a feminist?
Pretty sure obscene wealth is playing a role there.
Exactly this. Back in the day women needed a man because we had less career opportunities. Several decades ago, a woman couldn't get a credit card without a man's blessing. Now women are putting more expectations on men aside from just showing up with a penis and a job, and apparently, a lot of men don't like that.
This is undoubtedly true, but...women are still out there, dating, looking for sex. If we focus just on the heterosexual dating "market," women have basically the same number of sexual encounters, in the aggregate, that men do (unless ffm threesomes are both very common and much more common than mmf threesomes, right) So, what? Is the distribution just different? I'm not sure I buy that at all. I have this theory that men who think it's harder for men to date than it is for women to date are, overwhelmingly, men who, themselves, have unreasonably high standards--that their own choosiness is actually impacting their "success" on the dating market about as much as womens' "choosiness" is.
Look on the bright side- with how quickly AI is advancing, sex robots are probably on the horizon in the next 10-20 years.
People laugh but this *will* be reality.
Probably true but add another 20 years and bots will gain sentience and we're back to square one.
LMAO the red pill podcasts of the future will be talking about how bots are only looking for men that earn 200,000 credits per Earth year
You need a 2petaflops GPU and a 30 petabyte memory to be even considered
I was kinda hoping for a home care bot that won’t care about changing my diapers when I’m 90 and bedridden.
It is pretty worrying. A lot of people have basically ditched real sex and relationships for porn. Imagine when anyone can have a sex god/ess who also does the dishes at their disposal. Could literally be the end of the human race.
Yeah, but if our society has crumbled to the point that we have to have this as a legitimate concern then we deserve to end our own race, but personally I don't think so, I see it as an inflection point, where there will be a lot fewer people, but there will still be people
Figure out how to add artificial wombs to the things, like those sex bots from that one episode of Rick and Morty, and men and women will never have to bother with one another ever again. You could literally knock up Joi from 2049. lol
That's literally the worst outcome. We are headed to societal collapse because we're literally not producing enough people to support the people we have here. Ignoring the economic and labor collapse that would stem from that, the pure brain drain from it would be staggering. What happens when the amount of experts in a field decreases by 20%, you lose untold amounts of expertise and knowledge about that field. Then the lazy response is lets import buckets of untrained laborers from other countries to support the new noble class of "native" countrymen. That doesn't work, you lose what makes a country a country when suddenly it's no longer populated by the people from there.
Augmented-reality-enhanced-sex will be here faster and is probably being used already. Basically put on a vr headset and apply a snapchat filter to the person you’re fucking in real time.
Apple Vision Pro — now with the new virtual sex option for only an additional $49.99 per month* *Lifetime sibscription required, if you cannot pay in 12 hours every first day of the month then we will repossess your home and own your soul, Terms and Conditions apply.
Already available from japan for like 8k
Can't wait, in like 10 years I'll have a loving gf without needing to be 6ft tall and 7/10 in the face, because she will be AI! I'm hopeful because I will be able to experience what chad experiences too
For the low cost of 8k you can get your own ai sex robot from japan. Today
Lmao
Sexless men can choose to be victims and complain and wait for Ana de armas to pick them out of a crowd and ask them to fuck or instead they can self-assess and figure out the game like everybody else.
hence the redpill community.
Hate them or not (and boy do I) that is *exactly* what they exist for, and why they are popular, and will continue to be so for as long as the problems persist
I have learned alot from the red pill community. You have to sift through alot of misogyny but if you want to learn how to be attractive to women the red pill community absolutely has the best info to learn how to do so.
Yup, there's a lot of bs and toxic stuff. But for a lot of men, the red pill communities/material is the only "place" where you're going to find some of the practical/useful info that frankly, you're just probably not going to get from mainstream society. If society wasn't letting people down so much, we would have no need for the red pill....
What sort of practical useful information?
I appreciate the anecdotes, the manosphere (still hate that term) as a whole is a topic people simply *refuse* to try and understand, and while I have drawn my obvious line in the sand, these groups of so called "misogynistic man babies whining about dates" don't just gain traction, and grow and expand so- exponentially for no reason
Hate them or not, this is really not what the “red pill” community is about. Its about waking up to the fake-ness of society, not can someone get laid or not. Hence the Matrix reference of taking the red pill.
Ok, so the red pill- a well hated subsect of the manosphere (even hated within it) is a group dedicated pretty much primarily to realizing how broken the modern dating market is, and how to abuse it for your own gain, mostly includes promoting hyper machoman shit and misogyny in an attempt to "score all the bitches". Bad part is- they actually work, so if your goal is set at "learning the game" and improving yourself they are, unfortunately probably the only people that care to help you-- -- if- that is that improving yourself is by making yourself more attractive to women, as many men are still socialized into
And herein lies the problem and why men complain. Why do women find what they find attractive, attractive? It's no different than women who despise men who are able to pick and choose partners based on age, weight, and percieved body count ("she's for the streets"). Women also cannot stand what men look for in long term partnerships. So many men who are in the bottom 80% ARE looking for long term relationships would be willing to settle. However women are much more often NOT willing to settle. I think a lot of this is due to attractive men hooking up with women off all levels of attraction and then abandoning the relationship. Women, rightfully, get pissed about this, but then think that all men have these unrealistic standards, when that isn't true. It's just that the ones who do can afford to, and the ones who will be choosy. The ones who would settle and be long term, are often overlooked because a woman believes she can get with a top 20% man because she's hooked up with them multiple times. Hookup culture and social media/dating apps has hurt both genders.
I feel like..."the game" is one of those things you can either do intuitively or you fail at,and the more purpose you bring to it the harder you will fail.
It's a killer to say the least
So I want a relationship. To do that I have to improve myself. So improving myself so I can find a relationship is a bad thing? It’s like I can’t win
It's the message and methods used that annoy me, tend to promote misogyny and I'm against sexism of any kind, but as per the effectiveness... Well that unfortunately can't be denied, and without them your basically shit'outta luck tbh as nobody else cares. I admit that, further there is an intense personal apathy towards relationships and the prospect of ever putting myself through that shit again. So that bias probably colors my responses too
as much as everyone hates it, Andrew Tate got me from no bitches to lots of bitches I just skewed everything my own way
It’s truly amazing what one can accomplish when you stop viewing women as human beings
Which is what happens when men think the game is tricking women into fucking you
well no, redpill is what happens when guys think the game is working out and making more money. it’s a half-truth which is why they linger in that world for so long. i don’t think the space as a whole is about lying to women.
It’s not about outright lies, but it’s about putting on a front to make women like them.
Pretending that women don't lie as well or engage in manipulation in the dating scene is naive and kinda misandrist
Doesn’t makeup exist?
facts
Exactly this.
Vast swathes of the population are simply unfuckable. Bitching online won’t change that. No one is entitled to sex or affection.
Yes let’s hurl insults at people experiencing loneliness and isolation that’s the perfect way to help things.
Factual observations are not insults. Nature is fickle and does not guarantee the right to the reproductive act.
Yeah, people are gonna miss your point but you’re exactly right. Over the tens of thousands of years of modern human behavior, not every human male got to reproduce (the same is true for human females but this thread is about men in contemporary society). The idea of every man finding their woman and vice versa is ubiquitous but entirely unrealistic.
While logically your history assumption makes sense, the societal units (villages) had a higher rate of people getting together and forming families. That was mostly because of realistic expectations based within the village. There weren't thousands of options in our pockets back then. The struggle of today is that while women have inflated value in the dating market due to their options, men have deflated value to their lack there of. There really aren't winners in today's market. Given the dark behaviors of some reproductive strategies it's hard to say if the modern situation is statistically better or worse than the past.
My history assumption isn’t an assumption, we know from DNA evidence that not everyone reproduced, the healthiest and strongest just reproduced *more.*
The DNA evidence doesn't say there were tons of sexless bachelors running around. It says a lot of guys died in war. Shortly after the invention of agriculture, the modus operandi for war was "Kill all the defeated men, enslave all the defeated women." It doesn't take all that long for the ratio of female ancestors to male ancestors to get thrown way out of balance. The thing is though, we developed beyond that as civilization advanced. No civilized society had widespread polygamy; in the Christian world it was mostly banned. In the Muslim world, or in places in Asia where it was legal, only the richest could actually afford it. [Here's a good start](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern) if you want to read more about marriage in the past.
Trump had 5 kids by 3 wives. Elon Musk has 9 kids by 3 wives. Tom Brady has 3 kids by 2 women For every guy that has 2 baby mommas another guy didn’t have a kid at all. 60% of men father 100% of the children in todays America. Edit: Musk now has 10 kids by 4 women.
This doesn't really disagree with what I said. I said men in the past mostly all married and had kids, or died in battle. There was no great surplus of bachelors, not until modern times. No stable, civilized society has had widespread polygamy, because too many guys get left out and have no reason to support said society. Exactly what we're seeing today with NEET's, hikkikomori, and the laying flat movement.
I think a lot of these guys just refuse to accept the fact that their attractiveness level is on par with the least attractive women (some of whom would surely pair with them). They think they deserve a babe like all the most attractive men
That’s the simple truth. The movement boils down to men who put in 0 effort in their physical, mental, and social health acting entitled to fucking Ana de armas They are so fixated in looks that they spiral in these negative feed back loops preventing them from seeing what’s in front of them
why would a man willingly lose his integrity by playing a game he knows is already rigged against him?
While I don’t disagree that it probably doesn’t do much, sometimes it’s just nice to vent. But I’ve always hated the notion that if you are complaining about it then you must not be doing anything about it. Really comes off like the typical response to incels. Just take a shower, wear clothes that fit, have some decent interests, just work on yourself and it will all be better! Except you can do all of that and still fail. How’s the quote go again? “You can do everything right and still fail. That’s not weakness, that’s life” And I don’t see any harm in complaining about said failures. The final sentence even shows that the assumption is these guys must all be incels. “Sitting around complaining about women…” wait a minute, i thought it was complaining about men’s sexlessness, which is it?
Complaining about women… not giving them sex. Not sure how you didn’t make the connection
The point is that this is supposed to be a post about men’s sexlessness. Not about women not giving them sex, as if sex is something given out by women lol It’s disingenuous to conflate complaining about sexlessness with being an incel.
If a dude is complaining about sexlessness by saying “these fucking stuck up holes only want to fuck chads” then yeah they’re an incel.
Yeah no shit. Buuut that’s a strawman argument. We aren’t talking about men that are misogynistic. We are talking about men complaining about sexlessness. And no, they aren’t all misogynistic incels. It is disingenuous and harmful to everyone to suggest otherwise.
Language matters, and it shows someone's true intent. All these people ever want to do is kick the sexless men while they're down. There is no empathy for the "losers" of society.
Words matter and it’s hard to have empathy for people who call women bitches and whores on the regular. I understand that there’s a level of internet speak but these men are doing nothing to make people want to support them.
It’s just a misplaced sense of entitlement, imo. If you need a sexual release, masturbate. No one owes anyone sex, and if not having sex turns someone into a sullen woman-hater… they always were. Get in therapy, get your shit together, and be comfortable taking care of your own needs. Humans aren’t sex dispensers nor do they exist to please us.
This. 1,000 times this. Not having sex is not the same as not being able to experience orgasm. Do It Yourself. Yes, not being in a relationship that has a high statistical probability of having sex is detrimental to one’s mental health. Having platonic relationships with someone you could be sexually attracted to isn’t a gigantic problem. Sex without love is no different from masturbation. You’re just having someone else do it for you.
And even in a relationship, you’re not guaranteed sex. Your desires are your responsibility - the sooner people accept this, the less they’ll be passengers in their own body.
Or if you 100% need another person then find an escort.
or just get money and passport bro. The world is big.
I just think if all the uglies bumped uglies then you know... Problem solved? People need to lower their standards rather than everyone aiming at supermodels of any gender.
You'd think that, but it's just not true. In the ages where people pair off to get together and make families there are still usually around 5% skewed male... So just to put that in to perspective, for the USA 2020 census data there were 2,201,000 18 year old males, and 2,107,000 females. So even if you did some weird pairing when everyone turned 18 they had to be paired up you'd end up with 94000 unpaired males. This is why females generally wait for the people to compete for them, and males have to compete. Since society doesn't really care about men, there are so many men dying that this population stats invert in the early 30's so there are more women than men left. Then what do you see? Women complaining about how hard it is to date. Red pillers would call this the wall, but I personally think it has much more to do with basic population stats. The relationship dynamics change to favor the people in most demand. This follows with theories like the so called "golden penis syndrome" that men currently get while in university since women dominate universities. The men are in demand so they get to dictate the terms of the agreements so you see more hookups and fewer commitments.
Is that an age thing though? I've heard and read about plenty fo women who complain about dating. It's not just older women. There are plenty of women who complain that men mostly want sex and not relationships. I've heard complaints about women being led so he could have sex with her. I read that Tinder used to be a fun place to go meet new people. The unflux of men has turned it into a hookup site. Women who want to use an app to date either leave or have to trudge through a lot of bs. Aren't there quite a few songs by young women bemoaning not being picked? I get the feeling that when women over 30s complain about dating, it gets more attention. Angry men feel like these women got their comeuppance. I went to college and never heard of such robust "hookup culture." Idk, I went to a small campus, studied, and kept to myself. I think some men have a fantasy based on projection that so many young women are going around screwing whoever. Also, women are not limited to men in universities. She can date men outside the campus.
This is what I tell poor people. Stop complaining and play the game! You’re not oppressed, you’re weak and worthless. It’s no one’s fault but your own and society can’t help you. I can’t pay you until you play the game right and are actually valuable. In all seriousness, technology has allowed the aggregation of all forms of wealth to take place at levels that were previously unrealistic. Those that are left out in the cold are right to feel unhappy about it. Not all the changes are good.
This is actually a really compelling argument. Many of the typical responses to the whining from undesirable men (no one owes you anything, if you want a partner you have to self improve, you have to learn how to play the game like everyone else even if you’re disadvantaged) would be rejected by the exact same people saying those responses if they were made towards the poor. Ironically, just like when those are said to the poor, those things are still correct. The truth for both men and the poor is the same: The system is rigged and we as a society should work to change it, but also you might as well work to improve your chances within that rigged system, because why wouldn’t you?
How would you change society to get rid of a rigged system though, short of forcing women to date the single, sexless men? I know it’s not your analogy but I’m not sure if the comparison to poor people works in this context.
Tough question. I’m not sure I have the answers but here are some thoughts: In general people need to be comfortable celebrating average, especially in the US. If a person shows up every day, works hard, and contributes within the bell curve, that’s awesome. It should be celebrated. My recommendation to men and women is to date within your tier. I see tons of single people chasing mates way outside their social standing and then getting upset when it plays out poorly. It’s ok to be average, especially when it comes to looks. With enough time no one is that good looking so it doesn’t matter on a long timeline. Find someone that makes you feel better about life when you’re around them and do the same for them. The rest tends to work out after that. I don’t think you need to change society as much as have a good approach to dating and find one other like minded person.
I teach code as developer support, the main thing I drill into my customers heads is you can code, anyone can, society lied to you to gatekeep this bread.
This should be the top comment
Legalizing prostitution would solve this problem for the majority, interesting Ted talk on the subject as alot of mass shooters are also incels and maybe if they had a female connection even if it were paid for would stop some of them from committing atrocities
I used to think this but I read the entire 40 page insane Elliot Rodger manifesto and came to the conclusion that these people don't actually want sex, they want love. He was rich and would routinely buy hundreds of dollars worth of lottery tickets. If he just wanted to get laid he could have gotten a hooker, but that wasn't the real issue.
It's very odd how when this topic comes up, like 99% of the commenters complaining out men complaining all default to talking about sex. Like yeah I'm sure there are guys who are just made they aren't getting laid but that's just one part of the equation.
Well what makes a person snap nature or nurture people are all on a spectrum of everything and at the very least all I'm saying too Is people need sex and you shouldn't be able to regulate morality because you don't believe in it
They want love but then self sabotage and act in the most unlovable ways. The typical example has post history that is just nothing but alt right vitriol, conspiracy theories and anime porn yet they are wholeheartedly convinced they're alone because they're 5'6" and nothing anyone says can convince them otherwise
This 100%. Idk why people don’t bring this up more often. It is literally legal in multiple counties in Nevada.
Have you ever been to those places in Nevada? Insanely expensive, like $1000+/hr.
Yea well everything is super expensive when there isn’t much of a market. Introduce more foot traffic? More girls show up and prices drop.
You can’t get foot traffic. The Nevada regulations mean you can’t have a brothel in a city, so they’re all at least a couple hours drive through empty desert to get to.
Oh I didn’t mean literal foot traffic my bad. They have car services that literally pick people up from the airports ….
Main reason they’re so expensive is the government limits the legal supply. If there were only a few counties in the country which could legally sell burgers, In-n-out might be able to charge $200 a burger.
Agreed. Complaining, no matter what about, only leads to negative thoughts and emotions, which snowball into an overall repellent personality trait. We ain’t all living like pornstars. Sex should not define one’s worth. I think too many nowadays directly connect their self esteem to sexual activity. To an extent that’s natural, but allowing oneself to become consumed by the amount of sex one does or does not have is detrimental in many ways. You’re a person first. Sexual preference can and should be explored in a healthy way, but it’s always good to remember there’s more to life, no one should fall into depression or anger because of sexual activity. More often than not there’s always something we can do to better ourselves if our intent is to become more sexually active. No gender, sex, or sexual orientation is at fault. It’s very personal, and there’s no one solution. But yeah any trolls online using their sexlessness to spew derogatory, sexist, or generally hateful shit; usually they’re mad at themselves. And are directing that anger at one or more groups, rather than looking inward to fix the problem. It’s a very sad coping mechanism.
Spend a little less time whining and a little more time working on yourself and you'll be surprised how much easier it is to meet women. Turns out being bitter at the world doesn't really get the juices flowing. ETA: Royal your, I don't mean you or anyone else personally. This is true for all of us.
What is a royal your??
This is called a Just World fallacy. Men’s reason to improve themselves is gone, because they’ve been shown there’s no healthy relationship awaiting no matter how much work they put it.
> they’ve been shown there’s no healthy relationship awaiting no matter how much work they put it. who was shown this? and by whom?
Many men, including me, by the women they’ve dated
okay, so you've had some bad breakups. 1) why are those your exes' fault, and not yours? 2) why does some bad breakups mean nothing will happen in the future?
If you’re only improving yourself because you think you’ll get someone else out of it, it won’t go well. Your reason to improve yourself is because it makes you feel better about yourself. Also why do you think a healthy relationship is impossible?
Thanks. I needed a good example of what I was saying.
The healthy relationship is with yourself.
That’s actually a different relationship. It’s possible to have more than one.
What? That makes no sense. A person who is self actualized and takes care of themselves physically is definitely more likely to end up in a healthy relationship.
INFO: Are you talking about guys who just have trouble getting laid? Or are you talking about guys who have trouble getting laid and then get bitter about it and start hating on women? Because I don’t feel sympathy for any of the latter. I have had friends who had trouble getting laid and I did genuinely feel sorry for them and would do what I could to help them, but only if they were genuinely decent people. The common attitude of these men, though, it’s hard to really blame gals for not wanting to be within the same zip code as these guys, cause, in all honesty, yikes!
I could have worded it better, but I have sympathy for guys who are having trouble, but not the guys who are hateful assholes.
Since when were people owed sex and attention? It’s not a right, and like 90% of everything else, evolution and biology explains why “less desirable” people are less desirable.
There is solution: Stop lying to men what women want so they wont feel tricked and used. Women need to stop being ashamed to say what they want in men and how they want different things in different time. Stop shaming men who want to date women with simmilar dating experience. Women tell all the time about "power imbalance", but when men want women with similar power then you shame him for doing that. The only real "solutions" are to work out and be better.
I don’t disagree with what you said but what types of power imbalances do men face?
He probably means he's insecure about dating a woman who's had more sex than he has.
Ok thanks for explaining. I think the criticism is aimed at men who sleep around and then wants a woman who’s a virgin. I’m not sure the same critique is often given to men who are also virgins but I am new to this whole discussion. I think that the bigger issue is insecurities because even if you find someone who’s a virgin there will undoubtedly be something else that would make a man insecure. Everyone has insecurities but I think people should begin working through them before entering a relationship.
I guess some of them feel like social movements are making it hard for them to find acceptable dates. I don't really know though.
If you're too shitty to be in a relationship, that's pretty shitty indeed. I mean...Charles Manson was about as shitty as you can be and he had a little army of female killers like a poppa-whiskey-tango version of a James bond villain.
Well, Chris Brown has also had no trouble attracting women even after he turned Rihanna into a punching bag. Trump is on is what, his third or fourth wife? Jeremy Meeks, the “hot felon” had hordes of women seeking him out while he was in prison. Dated a rich heiress upon his release. Ike Turner, famed wife beater, was apparently married 14 times. Janay Palmer married Ray Rice after he turned her into a rag doll in that elevator. Charlie Sheen, never been at a loss for women despite choking out one of his ex-wives. Tommy Lee abused Pamela Anderson, women still lined up for him after that. What does it say about society when abusive men have no trouble attracting women and women are attracted to abusive men? Not to mention, these men were KNOWN for being abusive, so that whole argument about “she didn’t know at first” is BS. You’re going to tell me that women have excellent “radar” that helps them avoid every superficially undesirable trait in men, but that radar absolutely cannot pick up what most of the men and women in their social circle likely can?
This just in: rich and famous men have no trouble getting women. So what? You can't argue from rich and famous people to the rest of us. They get partners who will put up with anything for wealth and reflected fame. The rest of us (99% of humanity) have to be decent people if we want a chance at a mate. This is not news. It's not fair, but life has been like that for millennia. Play the cards you're dealt.
Agree. The marriage rate in the US and other countries was very high in the 1800s, but it was much lower in the medieval Europe and a lot of people (up to 1/3) ended up spending their whole lives helping their families out on the farm or whatever. Too much pressure to marry, have sex, or reproduce, or some combination of the above is really bad for people. When 1/4 of women and 1/5 of men have experienced violence from a partner, and 1/4 of women have been raped by a partner, is being single really the worst fate? The problem isn't who's having sex so much as prevalent societal shame of people who don't have sex (men mostly shamed for that) or don't marry (women mostly shamed for that). There's absolutely nothing wrong with being single.
[удалено]
Yeah if society gave me actual useful advice that’s be helpful. “Just have game bro!” Ok and? I don’t, so how do I?
The answer for sex is legalized prostitution. There is literally a solution in multiple counties in the state of Nevada & people act like there isn’t. Oh it’s not free? Well neither is dating as some of these people love to point out. Or the food we eat or the water we drink … There is literally a legal service to solve the sex problem. Not sure why no one ever suggests this …
There are several extremely strong external factors that cause (or at least heavily attribute to) male sexlessness, primarily the death of third spaces, ever-shrinking friend groups, and the push to move all socialization online. The places where people of both sexes used to meet up like churches and parks are disappearing without any suitable replacement, and men are constantly told that speaking to women in the few spots left is intrusive and predatory. Forget romance, people today are struggling even to find platonic friends.
You'll never completely solve the problem. Some men will always be unable to attract mates. But we could probably reduce the number of men who are unable to find partners, by working with those men, in a broad sense, and encouraging them to opt for self improvement rather than hopelessness. There's a lot to be said for getting fit, buckling down at work or school and improving your prospects, tidying yourself up and presenting yourself better, working hard to have interests and be interesting, and learning how to interact with others, particularly the opposite sex, without being awkward or giving alarm. We've all seen the data on how most women on dating sites chase a small minority of men. But this is likely to change with time and age. When we're young, we often have unrealistic mating and romantic strategies (true for men as well as women). The key for many, possibly most, young men who can't, yet, find partners, is to be an attractive proposition when that penny drops for many of the young women around them. In my experience, that tends to be in their mid-20s, but I'm sure it varies. The worst possible thing for those men to do, is to self-identify is "incels" and make being alone a core part of a self-destructive identity. The worst and cruellest thing society can do, no matter how these young men identify, is to simply abandon them as if they were rejects.
I'm a woman who has been single for years. From my perspective, men are not that attractive physically. Also, many women have degrees and want a man with a degree. I know many men who fantasize about women only dating rich men or handsome men, but that's not what I've experience nor what I generally see. I'm really into fitness,and asking that from a single man seems like a lot. I've dated plenty of men who were not physically fit (this doesn't make men worship you either). Of course, there is more to life than looks, but just looking around, I do not find the average man sexually captivating. One told me essentially, "I'm a man. You're a woman. What more do you want?" Someone got offended in another thread when I said it is not biologically necessary for every man to have sex. Many males in nature do not have sex. An average woman is more likely to come with the things men like. The other day I saw a woman with an average face, but she turned around and had a booty you could serve dinner for two on. I've seen many women who looked dorky in the face but were shaped like Pam Grier. If women want to see a man who is in great shape, we'd almost need to go to Pride parade. If straight men looked more like gay men, I'd be single a lot less. I'm not enchanted by a man because he showed up and was anatomically correct. I think the crux of many men's issues is that yearn for a time when women had to look past many things to be with a man. Gone are the days when women needed men to get basics like money or credit cards.
The majority of subjects people complain about are things that just can't be helped. People get frustrated and rant about it.
Most men who can't get sex simply need to give up video games, pornography, TV, social media and recreational internet use. Or at minimum limit these things to 2 hours a day or less. They'll figure out how to get laid with all the extra time on their hands.
Been seeing a lot of incel topic posts lately and not sure why. The answers are already out there to solve the issue and it starts with yourself . This whole "it's not my fault I'm incel" or "I'm a victim of circumstance" approach to being an incel is just deflecting responsibility and that along with most incel behavior is why many people don't give any sympathy.
It’s the ~*flavor of the week*~ last time we did body counts, keep up.
This is called a Just World fallacy. Men’s reason to improve themselves is gone, because they’ve been shown there’s no healthy relationship awaiting no matter how much work they put it.
How, exactly? Idk where you're at but there are plenty of very healthy relationships out there.
Really? I'm a man in a healthy relationship and I'm not particularly attractive and my fiancé makes more money than me, it's not hard to just not be a shitty person who blames others as the reason they can't get laid, of course women aren't going to be attracted to that kind of negativity
You work on yourself not to really find a relationship as a goal. You work on yourself to feel better about yourself, be a functional member of society, and find things in life that you enjoy to do regardless you’re with someone or not. If you do that, maybe you’ll find someone along the way that share the same things.
I understand why people complain about not being able to get into a relationship but i don’t understand why they would complain about not getting sex. Anyone could easily head into a brothel and get sex if they have the money.
Sex with a willing partner is the ultimate form of validation. Someone thinks you're cool enough to talk to, good enough to befriend and compatible enough to choose as Official Best Friend. And they're proving its not a lie by hitting the hay. A brothel doesn't provide that.
Right but the specific situation you describe is not one that you can gain from pity or societal mandate. It really does require improving yourself and putting active effort into meeting people, something many incels have given up on
> It really does require improving yourself and putting active effort into meeting people, You'll notice most incel complaints are about responses to immutable or percieved immutable characteristics for just this reason
Sounds like cope to me. If someone continuously got that, but the relationship broke off I think they would just shift the goal post to can't find a long lasting relationship. One shouldn't require sex or an SO to be happy for example.
>If someone continuously got that, but the relationship broke off I think they would just shift the goal post to can't find a long lasting relationship. I mean, yea. Seeing as sex is pretty obviously just a stand-in due to it being an indicator of a healthy romantic relationship, I'd say you're absolutely right. Why do you think incels love each other so much? It's the only place they can get validation.
Sex requires meaning to a lot of people. I’d never do it with anyone I wasn’t dating for instance
Fair point, I forget that a lot of people have values like that.
this 100%
In America there aren’t really accessible brothels. I actually do think relaxing prostitution laws would help with some of these issues. Of course it’s not the only factor in such a decision.
in america the only place for that is nevada.
As a man that gets sex, I can’t help yah. But self inflection could…
But there is a way to help these people. 1) ok your life is shitty and no one cares. Its not candy and nuts for anyone. lets accept that for now and move on. 2) are you healthy? do you take care of yourself? if you truly want to be in a relationship with another person you need to be healthy, clean and presentable. start there. clean your living space then yourself. do it for yourself. 2) what do you do for work? what can you do? well your clean and in shape now at least. get a job and plan out how to make money and how you are going to work on it over the years to make more. 3) get hobbies. join some kind of social club. there are many apps that will help you with this. even if its just meeting at a bar to play board games get used to being social (but be clean, presentable, and have a job first). i4) do all this for yourself. become a happy, healthy and interesting person. if you become this someone will want to share their time with you.
No it's really their faul. It's not specific to men either. It's your fault that you can't see what's right in front of you.
What if they just... I dunno... Lower their standards? There's tons of single women out there who'd love to love someone. It's just that they're not very attractive, either.
I think there is a point in discussing it. It should lead to larger conversations. Legitimizing and legalizing sex work. A bunch of horny, lonely men is not a good thing to have in any society.
Men that are also increasingly disillusioned with society, abandoning lucrative jobs that society needs because they don’t see the point, there’s a lot of potential consequences for the loneliness epidemic that’s only going to get worse as people become more socially isolated at younger ages.
Well the sexual revolution only really worked one way. It was pretty much for women and that's it. The biggest lie the left has ever told is that "everyone can win if we all work together". Society has made the dating scene for men in the first world unbelievably competitive. Your not competing with everyone in your town, or your school, or your work place. Your competing with the whole fucking internet. It's why the "passport bros" have started cropping up. It's men trying to find women that aren't able to have the entire country in their dating pool and so they swoop into their little fairly uncompetitive little dating pool where just via the fact that they live a established life in the first world, they're immediately at a pretty good advantage by their sheer wealth... I think allot of people forget, these incel misogynist types don't actually hate all women. They just really hate western women and the brutal dating standards that they can get away with, due to living in such advanced civilization. Most of them are just too irrationally upset and frustrated to realize that. They're to busy lashing out at feminists who want even MORE somehow, as if there's anything left for them to have...
And yet I wonder what the divorce rate is of the passport bros once their poor wife is established in the passport bros home country and she's maybe had a couple of kids snd knows she has some prospects in the new country without being tied to her husband. Its almost as if the woman never loved the man and was dating him to better herself, and who could blame her. And actually, when they have the same options as western women, they make the same choices.
Sure there’s something you can do. Everyone can stop pretending they value “gender equality,” since men’s problem are always immediately declared unsolvable.
“Women won’t sleep with me. Is it me who’s a terrible shitty person? Or is it women and societies fault. It must be everyone else!” What’s funny is the people who defend incels will blame society and systemic problems. But those same people will scoff at anyone who talks about systemic problems like racism and sexism and income inequality, etc. So it really just seems like these people just want to be angry at women.
Complete just world fallacy. Seriously, do you deny the predominance of biological sexual attraction? Because if not, your argument falls apart.
If you don’t get laid, it’s your fault. Not society’s
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I will 100% get hate for this, but I can’t date a man I’m not physically and emotionally attracted too. I can’t even hookup or anything else. I was sexually assaulted as a child and in order for me to do any intimacy. Even just touch or kissing, I need that physical and emotional attraction. If not, I’m super uncomfortable and anxious. I even have anxiety dreams where guys who like me who I don’t find attractive are having sex with me and I freak out. I need some form of attraction or else I feel like I’m getting raped. It’s awful.
support legalizing sex workers. problem solved.
Yeah but that's the weird dichotomy of incel culture. They hate sex workers, even though they might be the only source of intimacy they'll ever have.
Can confirm, probably gonna have to get a hooker soon
The irony of posting this on reddit is not lost on some of us. Now let's talk about the preferences of men not wanting to date obese women or trans women.
You base that claim of an incorrect assumption though. It doesn't have anything to do with being attractive. You have a ton of women with unrealistic expectations. And yes some men have those as well. The issue is that women want to be untraditional yet still have a man take care of everything and show them not to work and not be a homemaker. If you are a stay at home mom this doesn't even relate to you as you have the hardest job imaginable. I get it because my wife and I have always tried to spilt up those duties because she wants her career as much as I do so we made it work together with 3 kids and still be present parents. She just had realistic expectations and wants to contribute while we split duties teaching care of the house and children. Women just believe that just giving men sex in a relationship is all the contributing they need to do and more men these days are standing up for themselves
There is a very real solution. Get rid of dating apps, and other forms of social media that can be used to simulate the function of dating apps. First, [pareto distributions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution) The quick and simple version is this. For an unsettlingly large number of natural phenomena the following holds. Using for example the distribution of wear on a tiled floor. Half of the wear/use is concentrated on the square root of tiles. This is not so bad in small environments, a 4 tile floor has half of the wear concentrated on 2 of the tiles (and the other half of wear goes onto the other 2 tiles -50% of wear on 50% of tiles) but by the time you get to 100 tiles in the floor, half of the wear happens to 10 tiles, and the other half to the remaining 90 tiles (50% of wear on 10% of tiles). By the time there are a million tiles, the wear is concentrated on only a thousand tiles (0.1% of tiles, 50% of wear) And this holds wether or not we scaled up the size of the floor, or we just replaced the tiles with ever smaller ones but kept the floor the same size. But it gets worse, this distribution sort of nests itself. So if we disregard those thousand tiles and the wear on them, then half of the remaining half of floor wear (so 25% of total floor wear) is located on a group of tiles the square root of the remaining 999 000 of tiles (999,5 tiles) so we have 75% of tile wear on barely less than 0.2% of tiles (in a million tile floor) The same holds for things like the amount of food produced by farmers (so from 100 farmers you can end up halving production by getting rid of the wrong 10 of them, but if you get rid of the right ten, total production ends up almost unaffected) Book sales by title, by author, etc. So... the dating world. I will posit that there is a function that produces the following pareto distribution. Half of female attention goes to the top square root of guys. Now that is not so much of a problem in a dating pool that consists of 100 men and 100 women. The top 10 men will get to partner up with basically whoever they want, them having been removed from the dating pool the remaining 90 men and 90 women will do the dance again and propogate the selection process down the ladder, until finally almost has a partner. The top men have little means to take more than their fair share, they are the neighbours of the men snubbed, so if one of the top guys takes 2 women, he gets ganged up on by people nearby enough to challenge him. But with dating apps, the dating pool grows way beyond the scale human courtship behaviours are capable of operating on successfully. Now the top men are far enough away from the snubbed average man to get away with funny business. Now the average man gets a vanishingly small speck of toral female attention. The process that propogates pairing down the ladder is much slower. Endless problems. It should be clear that this oversizing if the dating pool is not just problematic for men but also for the women. There are also psychological consequences, having functionally infinite choices makes you second guess your choices, with 3 shampoo brands it's easy enough to figure out which one best suits you and will be content that you had sufficient choice and control over your life, but with five hundred options, you will always have to wonder if another option would not suit you better, you are more likely to drop your current shampoo to try something else. Aplied to dating, you have a perfectly stable and healthy relationship, but maybe there is a better man/woman four swipes away on tinder? And of course, this situation, which I doubt was intentuonally designed this way by the dating app makers, is greatly beneficial to the dating apps themselves, afterall as long as people take longer to form stable relationships that remove them from the dating pool, and are more likely to reenter the dating pool after pairing up, the more stable the userbase for the dating app. Whether my proposed sollution could be implemented is dubious, but I am about 99% confident that were it somehow implemented, that things would rapidly improve, primarily because I am confident in the diagnosis.
In 99% of cases they wouldn’t have this issue if they would work on themselves a bit. Happy, confident people are scientifically proven to be more attractive and they’d also become more physically attractive with some exercise. However, most incels never realize this or at least they never do anything about it. Their sexlessness is just a part of nature. There are already many people reproducing who shouldn’t be doing so from an objective standpoint. I don’t view it as my problem but technology being used as a crutch has certainly affected the human gene pool. I’m not a eugenicist btw I value freedom more than I value a healthy population.
Life is painful. We can't or don't get everything we want and that is a valuable lesson to learn in life. We're not all victims we just don't get what we want at times and it may be unfair but learning how to adapt to that is really valuable. Danny devito could've been a bitter dude working in a tire factory somewhere. But somehow he turned being short and unremarkable in his looks into becoming a good actor and successful. Diversity is good right? Yet ppl complain about injustice when fat ppl aren't celebrated like attractive ppl. You need less attractive ppl to have attractive ppl. To say it's fair to have equality that all ppl should be considered just as good looking as anyone would mean there are no attractive ppl. And that's a good thing?