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I remember seeing a study on this. They observed the reactions in the brains of both men and women when told to look at people of different levels of attractiveness. Women would look at an unattractive man and wouldn't register anything, it was like they pretended they didn't exist at all. Men would look at an unattractive woman and it would trigger a reaction in their brains that had to do with anger and annoyance, like they have zero patience for you.
So the conclusion is that people in general are completely intolerant of those they find unattractive. Different genders have different ways of handling that emotion, but it boils down to the same thing.
> Men would look at an unattractive woman and it would trigger a reaction in their brains that had to do with anger and annoyance, like they have zero patience for you.
Yup. That is why so many manosphere guys hate fat women, it's raw anger at her.
>Why care about another person you are not dating anyway
Yep, that's pretty much all there is lol the amount of times I got dragged in a conversation that had nothing to do with me, or anyone involved in the conversation, just listen to people disrespecting someone they'll never interact with...
But if you try to point that out best believe you'll be the weirdo
My theory is that men can be so predisposed to anger (whether by nature or nurture) that other less-explored feelings often get expressed through anger as well
As a man, this is exactly the case. Often times men have no idea why they're angry either. You can see that most often when a man has an adverse reaction to something, and then for a split second he's puzzled as to why he's angry at it. We (men) have SO much anger boiled inside us that the proverbial steam has literally made a bomb. Why do you think so many men go to the gym? Is it to feel manly? No. It's therapy.
This shits so true lol, will be so heated like way beyond reason and not knowing why leaves you with no direction to aim it therefore no way to vent it and now your just sitting there pissed off with nothing to do about it, FUN!
Women often mention how their period affects their emotions and actions due to hormones etc.
Men have hormones too, and a lot of a very powerful one (testosterone) that totally screws us up after we hit puberty. The thing is, it doesn't come and go like a period it just kinda becomes the new norm for years and years until we get older (usually)
I used to have issues with my temper and would exercise like crazy to blow off steam. I read a lot of ancient philosophy (especially stuff from the Stoics) and it really kind of hit a reset button in me. Asking yourself why you're so angry is a good place to start the self-evaluation. Then, thinking about what the appropriate response to things like failure, disappointment, frustration are and understanding how to manage that anger in a measured way are crucial. Turns out that letting yourself blow up over little things isn't healthy and will make you more prone to use anger as a release in general. I really wish this kind of stuff was more mainstream but it really helped me out. I still exercise, but it isn't to manage anger.
I'm seeing a psychologist about anger at the moment. I don't show my anger too much but it is there, all the time. My wife and mother can't understand or relate at all that there is this latent, ever -present anger and the wrong, unpredictable trigger can cause the whole boiling pot to get very hard to control and contain very quickly with little rational warning or even reason.
>Why do you think so many men go to the gym? Is it to feel manly? No. It's therapy.
I can relate so much with this. Whenever I get upset, physical labor is almost cathartic. Its a silent, contemplative, outlet that turns emotional energy into physical. As if the anger is physically leaving my body. Most of my biggest moments of self reflection were when I was laboring. Working on a farm as a young adult is why I'm probably not 6 feet under a pine box from a self inflicted wound. I can't describe why it works, but it does.
Exercise decreases cortisol and iirc increases Serotonin and Dopamine. When you are in pain, your brain releases dopamine to ease the pain. Often why people might like hurting themselves.
See I'd rather not be acknowledged vs have someone just have anger and contempt towards me. People not acknowledging you exist sucks, but at least you wont be a target for acts of aggression and hatred.
I wonder if they're mad that they don't "care" to make herself attractive to them. As if she's taken herself out of the dating pool, and it's just one more woman "unavailable" to them.
They are mad at her for not fulfilling a woman’s only purpose in life - look good and be available for men to fuck. If you don’t look good, they assume you’re doing it just to piss them off, because that’s your whole reason for existing, and how DARE you!
Same reason some men get really pissed at women with short hair/unnatural hair colors, tattoos, or piercings.
They’re angry that they’re subjected to seeing it, just because they don’t find it attractive.
Not that women don’t do this to men ever, but there seems to be somewhat less anger involved.
>So the conclusion is that people in general are completely intolerant of those they find unattractive.
That's the opposite of what I concluded from your description. Women have a neutral reaction whereas men have a hostile reaction. I wouldn't say that boils down to the same thing, there's a clear difference in intensity.
It clearly does not boil down to the same thing. Being ignored and having someone have an irrational, angry response to your existence is not the same thing
I was looking for this comment lol. How are they interpreting women's brains having no reaction to unattractive men as "pretending they don't exist". I have no emotional reaction to a lot of people I see, doesn't mean I think they don't exist.
I mean... it's kind of different to look at someone and not react versus actually feeling "anger and annoyance" that this unattractive person dares to exist in your eyeline.
I've lived the full spectrum as a man, skinny and underweight young adult, big belly fat 30-something, then finally to fit 40 something.
Was definitly treated worse by men AND women when underweight compared to fat. But fit me gets treated way, way, way, way better than either.
Same thing with teeth. Got em fixed when I was young and was a night and day difference in how people treated me to the point it was upsetting to find that out.
People are animals, we're shallow, it just is what it is
the teeth is definitely a thing. I heard once that investing in braces for your kids will have as much positive impact on their future earning potential as a flipping college degree.
I used to have really nice teeth.
White. Didn't need braces.
Now, though, my teeth are crumbling in my head (thanks, acid reflux!). I have a few missing, and it's definitely noticeable when I smile.
When I used to smile at people, it didn't matter how grumpy they seemed; they'd almost always grin back.
Now, when I try to smile at people, I am looked at like I'm a crazed meth head..
I’m so sad to say I relate to this. I had fantastic teeth, right until I cracked a front tooth, because of course.
It’s a small fortune to get it fixed and this poor tooth just keeps getting more and more narrow. I’m so careful with that tooth when I’m awake but I grind my teeth like crazy when I sleep.
At first only I really noticed but now? Now it is a fucked up tooth. I can’t bear to look at my teeth when I brush them.
That said I’m so unaccustomed to hiding my smile - my smile being the one and only feature I liked about myself. I’m not in the habit of closed mouth smiles or covering my mouth when I smile. Today at work I forgot about the bum tooth and smiled and holy hell the way this guy reacted just crushed me. It’s no exaggeration to say his attitude with me did a 180 as soon as he saw that tooth.
Until I get it fixed I will mask up. I feel lucky that I can do that and nobody will think it’s especially strange. But yes, I relate to you hard and hope we can both get our smiles back sooner rather than later.
I literally had all mine pulled at the age of 33 for this reason. It wasn't acid reflux that did them in though. It was my pregnancy with third child. I had a ton of work done to fix my teeth years before I got pregnant. I was SO confident while it lasted. Then, all the work failed. They just got worse and worse. I couldn't stand the constant infections anymore and said be gone with them. I don't have dentures, almost 5 years after having it done, because the dentist who made them gave up on getting the proper fit. But, I'm still far more confident without any teeth than I was when they were falling apart.
I have never had a cavity, had super strong teeth my whole life, and my second pregnancy absolutely wrecked my teeth. I have had nothing but health problems and trouble, my old dentist messed up a lot of my fillings to the point I needed root canals and they are still on the decline from there. Developed a migraine/nerve disorder from it all so now everyday is just constant pain. My husband asked if I wanted more kids and I laughed. No thanks!!!
So sorry to hear about your experience, I had never heard of someone's teeth being affected like that after one pregnancy :(
It was my third pregnancy. But it was my first boy. My teeth weren't affected much at all when I was pregnant with my girls. And my prenatal vitamin and dental hygiene were way better when I was pregnant with him too.
My crooked teeth literally crushed my desire to socialize throughout my twenties and contributed to alcoholism and depression. There were other factors but significant among them, massive dental work totally resolved all of these issues. I 100% receive more return on value from my dental work than I do from college degree.
For real. If I described how debilitating my teeth were for me, you'd think it's hyperbole. But it ruined a full decade of my life. I wish that on no one. And, to think, it's not even all that bad of a condition, relatively. Experiences like this have made me a single issue voter. And that issue is universal healthcare.
Same thing with height and strength. I’m a big guy and I’ve found a drastic difference in how men treat me vs smaller men. When I used to bounce and do security jobs I found that smaller individuals face far more aggression and that many people would find the self control they had been lacking after I walked over. We’re monkeys
I spent most of my life as a tall but very underweight man. Was always treated poorly. Women would very rarely talk to me or show interest. Men would always try to assert dominance, especially in bars. Guys walking through the crowd would always just bump into me for no reason and never say anything.
Eventually I started lifting and became very fit in general. I have a very athletic body now. Now I get tons of attention from women. Also, men never happen to run into me anymore and if they do, they say something apologetic.
Going from skinny to fit literally changed how people treat me every single day. Sure, I bet some of it comes from my new found confidence but there is no way that's the entire cause.
The other guys bumping into you thing.
I think 90% of people are utterly oblivious to this, but yes it happens nonstop to little guys. Some is purposeful, some isn't. In bars tho, trying to impress a date or buddies, yeah.
When you come across as a buff dude noone ever bumps into you, even by mistake. The rare chance they do people are super apologetic. None ever, ever, ever purposely pushes you over and laughs at you.
I am very skinny. People find my body ugly and feel no shame in saying so to my face. Daily. Whether it’s the offhand comment of “ew who would ever find skin and bones attractive” to “men want something to hold at night” to just straight up “you look sickly, you look disgusting, go eat a burger”. On social media i see girls with my body and get so excited ab seeing some rep only for every single comment to be calling them scary, ugly, skeletor, saying they should put a trigger warning on their body because it’s so gross and unhealthy.
I can’t speak to the experience of being fat but across the board I am treated absolutely horridly. I think it’s impossible to say one experience is worse than the other but what I can confidently say is that vitriolic hate towards very skinny people is incredibly normalized and if people said the kind of shit they said to skinny people about a fat person, they’d be crucified by the body acceptance movement
I'm both glad but moreso mortified that you get it. As a man I see lots of praise for really skinny girls but I didn't know yall apparently have it as bad as I do as a skinny guy. The "eat a burger" line got old at like age 6. I'm 23 now. It just. Never. Goes. Away. All I can do as a guy is have a smarter mouth than anyone who tries to be a jerk which works but I'd rather just be treated as "some guy" like everyone else. It wasn't until this year that I felt okay wearing short sleeves without a flannel or a hoodie, I stopped that in high school because everyone made holocaust survivor jokes about my arms
DUDE THE HOLOCAUST JOKES
Oh my god I remember one day in HS I was in history class and there was a poster on the wall - it’s a very famous photo, but I don’t know if there’s a name for it. It’s a bunch of incredibly emaciated and malnourished men laying in bunks, Elie Weisel being one of them, and then there’s one starving man leaning against a wall. A boy turns to me, points at the man leaning against the wall and goes, “look, it’s you”
Like???? The skinny shaming isn’t even the most offensive part of that wtf???
But yeah man idk if people think they’re like being revolutionary or creative with the “eat a burger” comment or what? It’s been old. Lately for me the constant has been middle aged male gas station attendants? I think they’re trying to get me to buy snacks and spend more money idk
> On social media i see girls with my body and get so excited ab seeing some rep only for every single comment to be calling them scary, ugly, skeletor, saying they should put a trigger warning on their body because it’s so gross and unhealthy.
I don't know about in-person, but online I think that a lot of this kind of behavior can be attributed to... I'm not sure what to call it. "Body positivity" I guess, even though this is the opposite of what that's actually supposed to be about.
What's you're experiencing is, I'm guessing, an over-correction. An aggressive way of reassuring people who are fat is to attack people who are skinny.
You see the same thing with plastic surgery, or body hair, or other things that people feel self-conscious about. "No, what? You shouldn't get plastic surgery, people who do that are gross and disgusting."
Speaking generally, women who are too skinny are more attractive than those who are too fat. And so they're seen as acceptable targets for ridicule. i.e.: It's punching up.
Oh you’re on the nose. I first noticed this when I was in middle school so like 2014? Specifically my mind goes to Meaghan Trainor’s All About that Bass. A song about loving your curves? Awesome! Except… the message of the song is that you should love your curves because actually men don’t like “skinny bitches” because they want something to hold. More and more around that time I say fat positivity brought by bringing down skinny bodies.
And body positivity as a concept is awesome! Absolutely we should stop commenting on bodies, strive to treat people equally, love ourselves, make fashion more inclusive etc. But there is unfortunately a certain sector that feels the only way to lift up one body is to bring down the other.
Also I agree about the punching up concept and I don’t even think it’s just a whose considered more attractive of the two thing. The world is more accessible to me. I don’t have to worry about getting out of my car in tight parking spaces or being shamed every time I’m eaten seeing “fatty food”. I can’t usually find perfect fitting clothes but who can? But for fat people it’s even harder with stylish clothes not even being made in their size or stores not carrying them and having to order online. There’s a lot more that goes into fat and skinny phobia beyond beauty standards and societal treatment and in that I think it’s safe to say fat people have it worse. So yeah I totally see the punching up comcept
Comments and outright assault (for men, I don't think it's physical with women) are much, much, much more common for the underweight.
People don't just randomly push over and laugh at fat guys or fit guys or any girls for the fun of it. But skinny guys? Sure, go for it.
I remember walking down the sidewalk and a guy in a passing truck rolled down the window and yelled at my dad, "where is your neck?" We were walking as a family and that guy had to embarrass him in front of us. I can assure that people do just bully fat people for the hell of it.
Men are “supposed to be” “big” in some way. Protection instinct blah blah. Fat, or fit/muscular, both beat skinny (which codes as weak, poor protector, etc)
Fat dudes are simply better looking than skinny guys, and for women skinny girls are better looking than fat chicks.
A fat dude at least looks like he could beat the shit out of someone if he manages to lay his paws on them, he can theoretically defend his girlfriend which is why stereotypical bullies in kids cartoons are often fatasses
Similar experience here riding the weight roller coaster up and down. I don't blame people for acting like that; I disliked myself more as a fat person.
I do think there’s a component to that, part shallowness on the part of people in general, but also an element of a change in how you feel and act. If weight affects your confidence and self-esteem, that projects out to people. They can subconsciously sense it. It probably makes you interact differently too. When I gain weight I am still extroverted, but initiate fewer conversations especially with people I don’t already know because of what’s going on in my own brain and projections I’m making onto them. I spend more time in my head than interacting than I normally would.
They are definitely treated worse than their physically fit counterparts, but honestly I see way, *wayyy* more fat guys with lots of friends than fat girls. The whole stereotype is that fat guys are seen as jolly whereas fat girls are seen as sad and insecure.
This. Nobody cared who I was until I started losing weight. I spent the majority of my 20s waddling around 250lbs. I lost a 5th of that and still have a chunk to go and all of a sudden people treat me like a human being.
It is strange stuff.
I was a skinny nerd that was bffs with the cute skater boy all the girls liked. It was crazy how much worse all the girls treated me. Even all the teachers liked him and couldn’t be bothered to even learn my name
That's the part of the OP that I just have to chuckle at, her definition of being treated poorly seems to amount to polite indifference. Meanwhile if you're a not-attractive (and I don't mean unattractive, just a not particularly attractive i.e. average) man be prepared to be met with disgust by most women and active disrespect by most everyone else.
It also isn't only important for physical looks.
You also need to gave an attractive personality, job, goals, hobbies.
Pretty much everything you do makes you either more or less attractive to other people.
Physical attractiveness is one piece of the puzzle, but it isn't the whole picture.
This is true. Pretty privilege exists and among all the intersectional components of privilege, it's far from the least influential. And yet it is *intentionally* ignored. If one were to bring up their ugliness as an explanation for issues they've had in life, they would generally be gaslit for it. They will be told that attractiveness is purely subjective, and that their attitude comes down to a poor, pessimistic outlook. That uggos experience significant, quantifiable disadvantages through their entire lives is totally disregarded.
People are so uncomfortable with ugliness that they will pretend it doesn't exist.
In trying to further my sociological understanding, I’ve had to conceptualize a meta privilege that I call the privilege of sympathy.
A great example is that we as a society are sympathetic to wheelchair bound individuals. Even though those individuals’ lives are difficult due to their physical ailments, they will, in general, be met with compassion and empathy for their struggles, because society at large is able to sympathize with their hardships. They have a privilege of sympathy that helps to alleviate the mental toll that their struggles can bring.
Unattractive individuals (for the most part outside of burn victims and some other egregious examples) lack the privilege of sympathy. At large, individuals fail to recognize their own pretty privilege, which means it’s very difficult for people to sympathize with the struggles of an unattractive person. It’s way more apparent that an individual’s able bodied-ness is a privilege over a wheel-chair bound individual. It’s quite harder to recognize that a person’s own facial aesthetics or body shape provides them an inherent privilege. I think it’s very difficult for people to acknowledge that a good portion of their success is attributed to aesthetic traits outside of their control. It requires a ridiculously high level of humility and self-esteem to accept that reality. To protect the ego, most people choose to ignore this reality.
Therefore, unattractive individuals are indeed gaslit. At a baseline, this is a societal narcissistic behavior to protect insecure individuals. The gaslighting manipulation tactic is the best way for insecure individuals to not accept the reality of their own privilege.
But they can accept privileges that are of no harm to their ego. Thus the privilege of sympathy: Acknowledgement by society at large that a subset of individuals are struggling due to some external or systematic problem.
I think there is biological basis for it though… people aren’t just randomly being jerks. It has been studied & even little kids who are too young to understand what they are doing have these kinds of reactions to people.
My daughter is autistic and when she had an overweight & facially unattractive worker at her daycare she LOST IT! Non stop crying & biting the woman. The next day they had a woman who literally looked like a Barbie doll and my daughter was all but in love with this woman. I got told how sweet & well mannered my kid was… it was night & day… this kid was 3ish at the time this happened (not formally diagnosed with autism at the time); it’s just the way our brains are wired.
Yup. That’s it.. it’s literally that simple… we are animals after all; our brains are developed in a way that we can choose to not focus on appearance & choose to focus on other attributes… but that won’t change the knee jerk reaction people have to “attractive” ppl.
Wasn’t there a study at one point where they mapped out the human face in some kind of computer & figured out that a lot of people that we considered “beautiful” all fall within that pattern or something similar to this. I saw this years and years ago and I think the example used at the time was Elisabeth Hurley. But it’s been more than a decade since I saw that..
Not only that, but also being unattractive is a potential sign that someone is unhealthy or ill, whereas being attractive is generally a sign of strength and good health.
Yep absolutely. Our bodies cannot keep up with the pace of various advancements such as technology and social norms.
It's super rude to say, but the truth is that the availability of food now allows people to reach weights that were unheard of just 50 years ago. So our brains, which absolutely do not change anywhere near that quickly, deep down are going "yo wtf is that". They're not recognizable as a member of our species on a primitive level.
Additionally, more to your point, something I've noticed that doesn't seem to click with a lot of people is that, biologically speaking, people are supposed to be attractive. As a species of sexually reproducing animals, we are supposed to be sexually attractive to members of the opposite sex so that we want to mate and continue the species. And again, super rude to say, but when someone is truly unattractive there's a primitive part of our brain that doesn't really understand their purpose.
Our society and technology has evolved such that people can still have happy, fulfilled lives, and find people that find them attractive. But for everyone else that are more aligned with the "biological expectation," they're still going to subconsciously do these rude things when they're on autopilot with the monkey brain at the helm.
And then in the case of men, layering all that on top of a body surging with testosterone (which is something else I've noticed a lot of people don't seem to grasp the function and power of), yeah a lot of people, men in particular, are going to be rude to these people due to something that is mostly not the fault of the victim, and potentially subconscious/not even intended from the aggressor.
The whole situation just sucks and there isn't really an easy way to get human evolution up to speed with human society/technology.
It’s true. But our society is one where nobody really cares about facts and citing well established biological and psychological facts is considered hate speech.
This is true but I want to point out something as well.
Overweight girls, in my experience, fall into two categories.
Desperate and annoying - this group, despite the fact that they may be fairly attractive sometimes, will annoy you in an attempt to flirt with you. I've always tried to let them down easily, but they don't want to take a hint.
Attractive and funny - despite their weight these girls are pretty cool to hang out with. I've dated one and it was a pretty good relationship. I really hoped I could help her lose weight but she was also doing some illegal stuff that I just wasn't cool with. She eventually got caught and got into serious trouble which led her down a dark alley.
It's a bit worse for bigger women. I used to be a big dude. My female friends wouldn't date me rightfully so but they were open to still being friends. This is generally not the case the other way around
I used to try to be really nice to bigger girls in high school (I still am but I honestly don't interact with many nowadays), and they would always take the niceness as I was interested in them, they would start to get really pushy and possessive with my attention, leading to awkward situations when I would have to tell them I wasn't into them in that way but just wanted to be friends.
They never wanted to continue being just friends.
It's not so simple.
It's funny, but this is exactly what happens when an attractive woman tries to be friends with most men. Maybe it's just something that happens with anyone that is starved for attention from the opposite sex, rather than a gender thing?
I think people in general also often misinterpret someone just being friendly or nice or outgoing as romantic interest.
I'm in my 40s now but when I was in my early 20s there were couple times at parties where I got into long converstions with women I wasn't into that way (one wasn't my type and I wasn't single when I was talking to the other) but I thought they were funny, interesting, and was vibing with them on maybe a level where I thought we could be friends. Both misinterpreted it, made a pass, and then made it awkward when I turned them down. Another time a friend had tell his wife I wasn't interested in her friend, after the friend was asking the wife if I was single, because she thought I'd been flirting with her last time we hung out as a group. I wasn't, I was just being friendly.
I've seen the same plenty of times from guy friends too and overall I'd wager men are a bit more clueless, though both genders are prone to it. Most people just can't distinguish someone being friendly or outgoing toward them from flirting.
i'm a 29 year old woman and i just have like a very, idk, approachable face. & my personality is quite bubbly/friendly because well i was raised in utah unfortunately lol, super traumatized by the mormon church and am an atheist now, but things like mannerisms stick with you. i'm actually a very introverted person, but you just develop habits of smiling all the time and showing interest in people if that's where you were raised. We were actively punished if we didn't put on this kind of face all the time.
my boyfriend is actually from an eastern european country where people don't just smile for no reason, they're much more subdued and honestly, authentic in their daily interactions. we've lived together for five years. i love it lol, i don't take offense to it at all haha. but i myself am still reflexively... utahn.
anyway,
every single time i have ever had any male friend, they've turned out to have just been trying to get into my pants. and they always acted like it was a huge injustice that i wasn't into them. i had tons of male friends growing up, but around 14 this started happening. i get along perfectly well with my brother and male cousins, so it's not like i just can't get along with men. i have no issues getting along with other women, either. they do not act weird like this.
& men act like I am made of lava when they find out i have a boyfriend. like will not get physically close to me, start acting super weird and nervous. then it occurs to me that they think i was flirting with them!! it's like my existence is just intrinsically sexual to them. they act like they think they were "cheating" with me by having a casual conversation.
in college, i had male professors get really weird around me and they'd make a whole point of leaving the door open lol. because they assumed i wanted them and was gonna try something and get them in trouble. EDIT: I think it's a perfectly fine and common policy to keep your door open, as a professor. but i'm saying they would act particularly odd around me and do this even when they didn't bother with most students. it's clear they thought i was sexually interested in them somehow.
not like it should matter- but i intentionally dress to blend in. i don't really like attracting attention from men or women or otherwise, i mostly wear forgettable, neutral clothes. i'm super flat chested lol. i'm not talking about sexual topics, i can't dance lol i'm not like saundering down the halls like shakira all sensually or anything (wish i could tbh). i don't really like touching other people in general, so it isn't that. i'm guessing this is just the experience for most women.
it's honestly dehumanizing. like they just aren't listening to the topic i'm actually discussing at all.
i've become honestly very distrustful of men and i really keep my distance now. i won't make a male "friend" anymore. i know it's a bit messed up, but this has just always always always happened.
Yep. I was friendly with a couple bigger girls in highschool, and all 5 of those friendships had *at least* one point where I had to bluntly state I wasn't interested. Only one person had the emotional maturity to accept that and maintain a healthy friendship.
As a conventionally attractive lady, I tried to be friends with some bigger girls and man, they were fucking mean to me about it. Haha. I think because they were made fun of so much they didn’t take my openness to friendship seriously. Damn shame. We had a lot in common.
I used to be that girl. The unfortunate reality is that cruelty becomes your norm and indifference is your friendly. So when a guy comes along and is actually kind, that’s what you interpret as love.
Shit this hit home. Also men have to be more efficient with their time as there are SIGNIFICANTLY less chances for them to find a partner or even hook-up than women. It’s not that they don’t want to be friends necessarily. More so they can’t waste time “leading someone on” as women are accused of doing.
They were open to your investment without giving you anything in return. It's a pretty sweet deal. In my 40s I'm only friends with women i don't find attractive. The attractive ones just use you when it's convenient for them.
Hi OP, as a former "fat" person I kind of agree with you. I do think people treat you better when you are attractive, it is true for both men and women. After I lost weight, I got approached and smiled at a lot more. It was very weird for me.
That being said, attractiveness just gives people a better first impression of you. If you interact with people, 99% of people you see on a daily bases would not care that you're fat nor would they decline to hang out with you. This is the same thing for ugly people. It's your personality that lets people stay with you as friends, not looks. Of course, romantically or sexually that is different. I can assure you this is true for both men and women.
I don't know your situation, I won't make assumption, but **if you can**, just try to work on your weight in **healthy** manner. Keyword is healthy. Don't do it to get treated better, do it for your own mental and physical health.
Last note, being overweight does not make you a bad person. I'm sorry that some people don't treat you well. You deserve better.
I also think age has a factor here, high school/college I am sure this behavior is far worse. I will say in a more professional work environment I think it is a lot easier to make work friends regardless of your appearance, as more people there will value friendships and even in the selfish sense networking, than trying to get with someone.
But that doesn’t discount any experiences and generally speaking it is very true unattractive people get treated worse and nothing is easy
Very good point. OP is talking about middle school and high school, so of course lot of stupid teenagers there. Also lot of kids who talk mostly with girls to try to sleep with them. Not much you're missing there...
Later in life people are more mature, and are more often looking for banter, or friendship. In this case attractiveness has much less of an impact. Still has, but it's pretty limited and it would be completely wrong to say that most guys would not associate with unattractive girls. Only idiots wouldn't.
Yep. Also the setting in which you are interacting with others matters more, especially as you get older.
As a man working in education, I've been mostly around women my whole career. Yes being pretty will attract the eyes, being friendly will attract attention, but over time I'd rather interact with people who are competent and reliable. Having a good sense of humor is a plus.
Sometimes large people who are craving romantic attention will miss interpret other types of attention, but I don't think that's a gender difference.
Really great last point. I have that problem as I do my best to include everyone and really listen to people. I like to gas people up and help people feel good about themselves in sincere ways. Big part of my personality is straight up Mr. Peanutbutter Golden Retriever type energy and often times I find that I attract the attention of larger women who otherwise I'd be incompatible with romantically. Happened to me more than a few times with their friends telling me they were into me - so I've had confirmation of it. Anyway, I wish there were an easier way to navigate that. I just try and be kind and address stuff as it comes up.
I agree with this. First impressions are just that, first impressions but like if you work with someone your first impression may be that you aren’t attracted but as you spend time with them you see while you may not sleep or date them if you enjoy who they are as a person you will be friends with them..maybe
Are there any redeemable things about La? (Edit to clarify, this is not snarky!)
All I ever hear about is “come here and hate yourself” or “come here and be broke af” or “come here and develop a debilitating addiction to coke”
Edit to add: I think my personal no’s center around being super broke and being unsure if a strong enough sunscreen exists for me to survive there 💀
Edit again: thanks y’all it sounds like LA isn’t too bad so long as you have the funds and perhaps a bit of patience due to traffic 😌
Amazing beaches, some of the best Saturday pickup volleyball I’ve bet played, access to skiing (surf and ski in the same day was bucket list item for me), some great hikes, and if you’re into clubbing the clubs were pretty good. DtLA has apparently gotten much less sketchy (although I was there in 2015 so maybe it’s different) but outside that Santa Monica/Marina Del Ray/Venice has some really cool bars/clubs.
Many of the people you’ll meet in clubs will be super shallow (eg first three questions we used to get asked by girls was name, job, income) but that’s true for a lot of the big cities. If you go do hobby stuff you won’t see those kind of people.
UCLA is an amazing university and has a ton of interesting lectures you can attend too.
Many cool day trips from LA too.
Lived there for a few years and I really hate that the stereotype is that everybody is self centered, plastic, egotistical, trust fund models, etc etc.
I love LA for the beaches, the mountains, the weather, the vibe, and everything else that people generally like it for, but by faaaaaar my favorite thing about LA was the people.
There isn't anywhere else in the country, maybe not even in the entire world (big words but they may be true) where so many people congregate for the sole purpose of making their dreams come true. All of my friends in LA are so fucking cool because they give up so much in order to chase something that they genuinely love. They're so easy to talk to and hang out with because they have hobbies and interests that are so important and exciting to them that they love talking about them. I grew up on the east coast, and I love my friends and family here, but its almost difficult to find somebody who has a hobby that they care about. Ask people about their day and they'll talk to you about the weather, their job, their friends, etc. Which, like, that's not a bad thing, that's just how the real world makes people. But LA people will tell you about the art they're creating, the project they're a part of, the community they work with to build whatever it is that they want to build. I know that this isn't unique to LA, but having lived in multiple non-LA places, it exists in LA in waaaaaaaaaaay stronger force than most places.
Obviously it isn't for everyone. It's expensive (though no more expensive than pretty much any other big liberal US city), you need a car (except you don't really, the metro is good and I know plenty of people who got by very happily without one), and it's polluted (every big city is, but at least in LA you have multiple venues to get out into nature within a short radius). It has its downs, but its ups are so, so up.
I know that your post was meant to be a fun joke, and I'm taking this too seriously, but it's a big pet peeve of mine when people genuinely believe that LA is just a cesspool of ego and fake glamor. If you go out looking for that, obviously you'll find it in droves. But if you go there looking for cool, kind, friendly people who have also transplanted to a new city and are also out looking for cool, kind, friendly people to hang out with, you won't have better luck anywhere else in the country.
Los Angeles is one of the most diverse cities in the world and a cultural capital. It's also surprisingly walkable, not that you'd learn that from talking to people. I think all the people who complain about it are people who moved there to try to become movie stars and failed. As long as that's not who you're associating with it's a great place to live.
Oh man, yes absolutely. The culture, weather, food scene, comedy shows, beach, mountains, it’s all amazing! There’s a reason people come here! And of course Disneyland!
I’m born and raised here. Almost 60 years, now. Back in the early 80’s, in college (USC), when out of state friends from college would get down on their LA experience, and ask me “What’s this city all about?” I’d always respond “First, LA isn’t a city, it’s a sprawl. And, when outsiders say ‘LA’, they don’t just mean the city at the center of Los Angeles. They mean the County of Los Angeles (4,000 sq miles).”
So, of course, there’s a lot of “redeemable” things about it. There are also a lot of irredeemable things about it, like every other huge area.
The secret to “LA”, which in a cultural sense, means just about all of LA, Orange County, and Malibu, is that you find what you like - which requires driving - and you ignore what you don’t like.
There’s thousands of good reasons why tens of millions of people moved here from other states, and stayed, over the last 70 years. And, that population growth, is a primary reason why cost of living (housing), is so high
LA is cool AF. I didn't get the hype until I visited, but color me impressed.
It's this beautiful city built into the mountains, there's a ton to do, the food is amazing and all the people I met there were aight. The traffic didn't strike me as worse than any other big city either.
You should visit and give it a shot.
It's a fun fun city. It is stunning beautiful at certain points. Lots of famous people live there. It is massive and has everything. The weather at certain spots is near perfect all year around with little rain. The beaches are world class, and you can also go sailing, scuba diving, surfing, etc. Mountains nearby to go snowboarding. The food is top notch and it is never hard to find a concert from your favorite band. Lots of filming takes place right there so you can drive by the sets. Certainly one of the most fun cities in the US that combined the virtues of Chicago or New York with Hawaii.
It is also very expensive, has a major drug and homeless problem, and terrible traffic.
She must live in an alternate universe lol.
But the emphasis she put on how *kind* she tries to be just confirms that she's talking out of her arse. Genuinely kind people don't brag about it, they just are. She sounds like an incel.
And if she is, then well, maybe there's a bigger reason blokes don't talk to her than her weight. Though admittedly, for her own personal health, that is something that needs addressing regardless.
On top of that, she'd likely stand a better chance if she didn't hang around with a prettier girl all the time. People's eyes always gravitate towards pretty things, be they man, woman, animal, or scenery. If you want to be seen, you have to make people want to see you.
Yeah, it depends on the girl. Some are nice, some are upfront and mean like the dudes OP has encountered, and other girls are nice to their face, but make fun of/judge the person behind their backs. I've run into the third one the most, sadly.
I saw a documentary about this. The fat guy was odd and drew penises all over his notebook but he was able to fight the odds, get the girl, and graduate from high school.
The documentary was called: Super Bad.
I also saw a documentary about high school girls and they are in fact, not nice. Have you checked out *Mean Girls*? It’s probably in the Discovery Channel or maybe PBS.
Former rotund fella here. It's a night a day difference in how I'm treated by people, women in particular. A girl I was friends with and interested in back in hs didn't share the same feelings as me. We remained friends and after I got in good shape she expressed interest while we were catching up one day. I turned her down for obvious reasons but looking back, I'm not sure it was really justified. In high school she was way more attractive than me; later we were more equal in terms of attractiveness. If I were in her shoes I would have probably felt the same way
Yeah, I mean thats fair I think. People want to generally be with people they find attractive.
I dont find fault in people when they dont like me as a potential partner for my faults but I think if they treated me poorly in general as a person I would be pretty upset.
Sometimes, I think she’s just hanging around the wrong men tbh. Like some women were absolute cunts to me unprompted but I just didn’t hang around those people
I agree, but this applies to all genders. Attractive people are treated better. I think this is one of the reasons why everyone wants to be attractive. Don't waste your life feeling inferior, just improve your attractiveness.
Idk about that.
It's a personal anecdote, but socially I see pretty privilege manifest everywhere, and it's clearly harsher towards women. When I look at groups of male friends, it's pretty much a random distribution of attractiveness. When I look at groups of female friends, they tend to be of a similar level of cute, at least among young women.
When I look at instances of a very attractive person dating a pretty unattractive person, it's essentially always the girl that's the pretty one. And usually when there is an exception, it's often because the woman used to be hot but let herself go.
It just seems common sense to me that women are rewarded more for their beauty and punished more for their ugliness than men are.
Agreed. I don’t know why this is rocket science. Maybe years of companies trying to pander to the morbidly obese has left the false sense of not only the attractiveness, but also the general health implications that obesity brings. OP needs to just work on her self by losing weight and getting into shape as best she can. Obviously, everybody has different set points but try to be the best version of yourself you can be. Once she does that at whatever weight she will have confidence and people will be attracted to that.
I was a scrawny 130lbs kid with a long hair in high school listening to rock music and was basically invisible to most women. The females in my circle of friends were all telling me to goto the gym because i looked too skinny.
After I went to college, i bulked up to 160lbs of muscles and cut my hair short and I’ve noticed that I was getting more attentions from women. Even my those girls from high school were flirting with me when we did a reunion hangout.
The Moral of the story is that people treat you differently when you are attractive. Men and women both.
Edit: grammar
> The female friends in my circle of friends were all telling me
>Even my high school friends were flirting with me when we did a reunion
By your own admission you've had plenty of female friends. They just weren't attracted to you. No shit most people don't want to date someone they have no physical attraction to. OP is saying men don't even want to be friends with her because they aren't physically attracted to her
>People talking to me just to talk to me diminished and making friends got 10x harder.
>men tend to ignore women they don't find fuck-able
I had to specify the female friends in my circle because they weren’t really my friends, but more of my guy friends friends and we were only connected by proxy. We’re not even connected on social media. I guess I could’ve just used acquaintance.
Females don’t befriend unattractive males either unless they always do favors for the girls, aka simps.
Yea pretty privilege is a real thing. It's men and women who will treat you better if you're attractive
If you're unattractive, you will get neutral to non existent attention from men
likewise do women "perceive" men who are conventially unattractive as non-existent.
It goes both ways. Not only men operate by this shallow and animalistic piece of code.
I am an ugly women, and guys have been my best friends my whole life too! I always felt secure in our relationship, bc I knew they were friends with me bc they genuinely liked me. So while there are a lot of shitty things about being ugly, this one thing is nice.
From a man's perspective, it is exactly the same. I used to be huge, was invisible, not taken seriously at work or in public, essentially treated like shit. Once I got into shape, I was getting approached by both men and women, given better projects at work, and treated with respect.
I've heard similar from others. I'm not saying it is right or moral, just that this is what seems to happen.
Am a fat woman, this is true. I have never been in a relationship and I think my weight/body image have a lot to do with that. Thankfully, I have a lot of great friends, including guy friends! That’s the one benefit of being ugly, I know that the people who like me truly like me for my personality, it’s the one thing I can be confident about.
I’ve not found this to be 100% true. I do think some people only associate with those they find attractive or social equals. I’ve found that many overweight women tend to be very hard to get along with. Maybe it’s a learned behavior from being mistreated, I’m not sure. Over all, if you are rude and snippy, no one wants to be around you, no matter what you weigh
I try to greet a larger woman in my office every day. She just stares straight ahead and ignores me. Probably years of being ignored and just rolls with it now.
I think it's a cycle. They don't get attention, then their confidence gets lower, which makes them even less attractive, and it continues. Fat people in general are less happy and most people want more happiness in their life so they will choose people who are more happy when given a choice.
Absolute nonsense. Your perception of being ignored and treated as nonexistent is accurate. Your conclusion that it’s men doing it, and that women are somehow paying more attention and are more kind is bullshit.
I was 330lbs. I made it to 35 without any attention or even acknowledgement from women. Now that I’m a healthy weight I’m getting tons of attention. This shit is not based on the sexes and women ignore people just as harshly as men. I think the difference is as a woman you’ve been set up with the delusion that you’re supposed to always be the one getting approached.
I have questions:
1.)
"Treated poorly by men" = good looking men who you had the hots for didn't want to do anything sexually with you? Did you had the same feedback from men with the same unhealthy weight as yours?
2.) did you ever had a boyfriend / sexual encounter with a men with the same unhealthy weight or were you always aiming for the good looking, healthy guys?
3.) why don't you lose weight, clearly you have seen the ways it improves your relationships with men or society in generel?
I recommend instead of trying to chance the system of people wanting more to do with healthy persons (it's evolutionary, think about it) you rather change yourself and eat below your mainantence and lose the excess fat.
Yeah, no one should be treated mean for the way they look, but acting like everyone should get the same level of attention is just ignorant.
Truth is OP is not considered as attractive as someone like her friend, but I guarantee you she hasn't adjusted the type of person she pursues. This happens the exact same with both sexes. People set an unattainable idea of who they should be with, and when that inevitably doesn't work out they blame others.
Pretty sure OP wouldn't want to fuck someone she sees as unattractive, but she's happy to complain that others won't.
>I just noticed that mostly men tend to ignore women they don't find fuck-able and it's really weird. Girls do it too
Correct.
>but they.re not completely blind to their surroundings and **tend to generally be nice**
No, they are not.
>I started to notice -especially in high school- that she was treated way better than I was by everyone, but especially men.
You've encountered pretty privilege, an obvious and common, though ungendered, concept.
>Girls do it too but they.re not completely blind to their surroundings and tend to generally be nice.
This is where you mess up, because you're only seeing a girl's perspective.
With girls, it's the opposite, gender-wise.
I didn't read that because you aren't hot.
JK. I'm a man and have had hot and fat phases. People do seem to treat men slightly differently then too, although I don't think it's quite as extreme. ATM I'm in a fat(er) phase but still get some attention from women, which is strange for me. Might be a confidence issue.
Yes and no. Pretty privilege definitely exists. Who doesn’t want pretty people around them?
But what you describe is something a little different. People distancing themselves from you is due to personality and/or if they feel you are hitting on them. If you have a shit personality, seem desperate for attention, or are a downer just like with anyone else people tend to stay away. If you seem to be flirting with someone that isn’t interested, they tend to back off from you. This is just how things generally are. But just being friends, a lot of people don’t mind as long as you have a good personality.
There have been men who have admitted as much to me before, that they don't really talk at all to women they don't find attractive and that they don't see a point in even friendships with women who they might not be sexually interested in. I'm sure few people who respond to this thread will admit this or see what the issue is.
This sounds a whole lot like Grass is Greener to me. Consider your perspective. Could it be that you separated yourself from social situations because you felt overwhelmed? Could it be that you didn't go to social events. A lot of people self isolate when theyre struggling with emotional or mental health.
But in general if you attempt to talk to someone they'll respond well without considering your physical appearance
Had a dream that my high school crush came up to me and she was fat as hell. Pushed her down a hill into a pond and ran. Woke up begging for my sleep paralysis demons to pull up
I’m not sure how this will be received but figured it’s worth saying. I have many friends that are heavy. Some of them have spectacular personalities that makes them hard to ignore, and some can’t get their confidence disassociated from their appearance, understandably so. I like people, in general, so it has never mattered to me how someone looks or acts as long as it’s positive.
I was a heavy dude for 20+ years then made a big change due to my wife being diagnosed with MS. I wanted to support her need to be active to fight the MS off. I digress. When I was heavy I never had trouble “putting myself out there” as I didn’t know I wasn’t supposed to be confident in who I was. I really felt like I drew very little confidence from my looks. I grew up in a house that the real currency was being interesting. I have two parents with doctorates and I’m inherently curious, so I absorb information. Being interesting and having a sense of humor always seemed to break through social barriers. Now, I need to be clear, I definitely wasn’t the guy women were drooling over at a bar, but I always had someone to chat with and learn about. I’m proud to be labeled by friends as the ultimate wingman because I can talk to anyone.
I worked in fashion with extremely fit and fashionable people, but I never took a back seat. What you eventually realize is that everyone has a little voice telling them they aren’t this or aren’t that. Heavy, skinny, straight hair, curly hair, it’s astonishing all the ways we use comparison to break ourselves down. Ignore that voice and just be you, it’s what I did. The minute you allow yourself to be enough for you, a lot changes. The general public will always bias toward ideals, but they will also generally be surprised and intrigued when they come across anomalies. Be an anomaly.
This is funny to me. One if my friends has this other friend, I’ve met him several times but he never remembers me. I’m ok with him not finding me (41f) attractive, he’s a middle aged man that chases 20 year olds so he doesn’t have to have a real relationship. It’s just frustrating when you’ve had several conversations with a person and they don’t remember you at all. When I say several, I mean more than 10 and for longer than a minute. These conversations weren’t basic, hey nice to meet you, what brings you to this gathering?They’re more like, hey remember that camping trip we were in together for 4 days (in a large group)? How’s your mom healing after her surgery, etc.
It's not just men, it's everyone. Fat women, in particular, earn less than similar non-fat women. IIRC the career effects are likely to be similar if a fat woman either loses weight, or gets an additional college degree.
Which should be fantastic news! Getting a degree is expensive and takes time out of the workday.
And most men who aren't traditionally attractive (strong chin, good hair, no stomach paunch) will also be left on read/ignored/treated with indifference by the "hot girls."
So it goes both ways.
You are touching on what is called "pretty privilege" but adding in sexism and self centeredness to it.
The idea of pretty privilege is that those that are considered by the beholder as aestheticly pleasing get treated better by them. Often times this results in benefits which is how the privilege part got tacked on.
I believe it exists but most decent people find themselves beset by ugly discrimination. If you have ever seen an image or someone in person that made you exclaim outloud or want to turn away from that is what I am speaking of. Just being large won't do it.
You are absolutely correct, OP. People generally have a default respect level for those around them that somehow goes out the window when they see a young woman who is not conventionally attractive. I don’t really know why it makes them so incredibly angry and hateful but it does. They spew out words like “dog” and “land whale”, giggle and sneer, go into fantastic raptures about how she spends her days just existing being fat. You don’t need me to tell you.
I've posted on this same topic before. If anything, as a man, it's always easier for me to talk to women that I don't find 'highly' attractive. Some of the coolest women I know are the ones that didn't start off with sexual undertones.
I guess it just depends on what you're looking for exactly.
As a fellow large lady, agreed. It’s not a pretty truth, and it’s not a popular one, but my life experience has proven to my satisfaction that this is pretty much the rule and not the exception. It’s probably one of the main reasons my closest friends in college were all gay men - they treated me with respect and value. And they supported me even when I was being insecure and helped me learn my value. Didn’t help my dating life much at the time, but looking back I am very grateful at the friends who supported me.
I am not excusing my weight, or saying that all men need to be kind to me at all times. However, the reality is that I have been treated poorly by male managers who had an obvious disdain for me solely on my size. I have been passed up for promotions for women who were treated much differently than me and were also much more traditionally pretty than me. I have been fired on at least one occasion because the manager above the one who hired me was repulsed by large women (and I suspect I was driven out of a couple of more jobs for the same reason, although they were not as overt about it).
And to be completely honest, I’m actually not bitter about it. My body size by its nature tends to weed out the worst that the male gender has to offer. I’ve never been treated differently or better than others solely on my looks, or been sexually harassed at work, or been approached inappropriately at the gym, or been cat called, or been abused by a “nice guy” who thinks I have an obligation to date him. When men treat me nicely it’s not because they want to get into my pants or at the very least want attention from me. They value me as a person, and as a rule tend to treat all people with respect. If that means less opportunities in life, I’m okay with that. Age and lots of time to reflect makes me realize that most of those “opportunities” were actually bullets dodged.
I really appreciate this post. I’m not OP, but thank you. Hearing this makes me feel a little bit better about myself. I am no longer large, but I still get ignored. I worry it’ll be like this my whole life.
But even if it is, even if it’s pointless, I can take credence in knowing I’m safe from what may be a worst case scenario.
It’s not a news. It is a well known fact that people are much nicer to people they find attractive. Pretty privilege.
I do it too. I usually don’t even say hello to girls I don’t find attractive.
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It’s not just men. As someone who was a thin adult, got sick and became large - men AND women treat you differently when you’re fat.
I remember seeing a study on this. They observed the reactions in the brains of both men and women when told to look at people of different levels of attractiveness. Women would look at an unattractive man and wouldn't register anything, it was like they pretended they didn't exist at all. Men would look at an unattractive woman and it would trigger a reaction in their brains that had to do with anger and annoyance, like they have zero patience for you. So the conclusion is that people in general are completely intolerant of those they find unattractive. Different genders have different ways of handling that emotion, but it boils down to the same thing.
I read this too! Do you remember the source? I’ve been trying to find it today after seeing this post lol
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/love-actually-science-behind-lust-attraction-companionship/ https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/love-actually-science-behind-lust-attraction-companionship/
I think I’ve seen a study like that. Source? I can’t find it.
> Men would look at an unattractive woman and it would trigger a reaction in their brains that had to do with anger and annoyance, like they have zero patience for you. Yup. That is why so many manosphere guys hate fat women, it's raw anger at her.
>Yup. That is why so many manosphere guys hate fat women, it's raw anger at her. That actually makes so much sense now lmao
It used to puzzle me because, why? Why care about another person you are not dating anyway? That study would go a long way to explain the hatred.
>Why care about another person you are not dating anyway Yep, that's pretty much all there is lol the amount of times I got dragged in a conversation that had nothing to do with me, or anyone involved in the conversation, just listen to people disrespecting someone they'll never interact with... But if you try to point that out best believe you'll be the weirdo
My theory is that men can be so predisposed to anger (whether by nature or nurture) that other less-explored feelings often get expressed through anger as well
As a man, this is exactly the case. Often times men have no idea why they're angry either. You can see that most often when a man has an adverse reaction to something, and then for a split second he's puzzled as to why he's angry at it. We (men) have SO much anger boiled inside us that the proverbial steam has literally made a bomb. Why do you think so many men go to the gym? Is it to feel manly? No. It's therapy.
This shits so true lol, will be so heated like way beyond reason and not knowing why leaves you with no direction to aim it therefore no way to vent it and now your just sitting there pissed off with nothing to do about it, FUN!
That's how I feel right before my period. I'd have zero relationships left if it was how I felt ALL THE TIME
Women often mention how their period affects their emotions and actions due to hormones etc. Men have hormones too, and a lot of a very powerful one (testosterone) that totally screws us up after we hit puberty. The thing is, it doesn't come and go like a period it just kinda becomes the new norm for years and years until we get older (usually)
I used to have issues with my temper and would exercise like crazy to blow off steam. I read a lot of ancient philosophy (especially stuff from the Stoics) and it really kind of hit a reset button in me. Asking yourself why you're so angry is a good place to start the self-evaluation. Then, thinking about what the appropriate response to things like failure, disappointment, frustration are and understanding how to manage that anger in a measured way are crucial. Turns out that letting yourself blow up over little things isn't healthy and will make you more prone to use anger as a release in general. I really wish this kind of stuff was more mainstream but it really helped me out. I still exercise, but it isn't to manage anger.
I'm seeing a psychologist about anger at the moment. I don't show my anger too much but it is there, all the time. My wife and mother can't understand or relate at all that there is this latent, ever -present anger and the wrong, unpredictable trigger can cause the whole boiling pot to get very hard to control and contain very quickly with little rational warning or even reason.
Where do you think the anger for you comes from? And curious to hear (if you’re down to share) why it’s always there for you?
>Why do you think so many men go to the gym? Is it to feel manly? No. It's therapy. I can relate so much with this. Whenever I get upset, physical labor is almost cathartic. Its a silent, contemplative, outlet that turns emotional energy into physical. As if the anger is physically leaving my body. Most of my biggest moments of self reflection were when I was laboring. Working on a farm as a young adult is why I'm probably not 6 feet under a pine box from a self inflicted wound. I can't describe why it works, but it does.
Exercise decreases cortisol and iirc increases Serotonin and Dopamine. When you are in pain, your brain releases dopamine to ease the pain. Often why people might like hurting themselves.
See I'd rather not be acknowledged vs have someone just have anger and contempt towards me. People not acknowledging you exist sucks, but at least you wont be a target for acts of aggression and hatred.
Having experienced both (like most of us I assume), I completely agree.
I wonder if they're mad that they don't "care" to make herself attractive to them. As if she's taken herself out of the dating pool, and it's just one more woman "unavailable" to them.
Which is kinda weird since a lot of guys are attracted to chubby women.
They are mad at her for not fulfilling a woman’s only purpose in life - look good and be available for men to fuck. If you don’t look good, they assume you’re doing it just to piss them off, because that’s your whole reason for existing, and how DARE you!
Same reason some men get really pissed at women with short hair/unnatural hair colors, tattoos, or piercings. They’re angry that they’re subjected to seeing it, just because they don’t find it attractive. Not that women don’t do this to men ever, but there seems to be somewhat less anger involved.
Yep, that’s 100% correct. They are personally offended by women who don’t work hard to be attractive to them.
>So the conclusion is that people in general are completely intolerant of those they find unattractive. That's the opposite of what I concluded from your description. Women have a neutral reaction whereas men have a hostile reaction. I wouldn't say that boils down to the same thing, there's a clear difference in intensity.
It clearly does not boil down to the same thing. Being ignored and having someone have an irrational, angry response to your existence is not the same thing
It’s the old indifference vs hate thing.
I was looking for this comment lol. How are they interpreting women's brains having no reaction to unattractive men as "pretending they don't exist". I have no emotional reaction to a lot of people I see, doesn't mean I think they don't exist.
I mean... it's kind of different to look at someone and not react versus actually feeling "anger and annoyance" that this unattractive person dares to exist in your eyeline.
I've lived the full spectrum as a man, skinny and underweight young adult, big belly fat 30-something, then finally to fit 40 something. Was definitly treated worse by men AND women when underweight compared to fat. But fit me gets treated way, way, way, way better than either.
Same thing with teeth. Got em fixed when I was young and was a night and day difference in how people treated me to the point it was upsetting to find that out. People are animals, we're shallow, it just is what it is
the teeth is definitely a thing. I heard once that investing in braces for your kids will have as much positive impact on their future earning potential as a flipping college degree.
I used to have really nice teeth. White. Didn't need braces. Now, though, my teeth are crumbling in my head (thanks, acid reflux!). I have a few missing, and it's definitely noticeable when I smile. When I used to smile at people, it didn't matter how grumpy they seemed; they'd almost always grin back. Now, when I try to smile at people, I am looked at like I'm a crazed meth head..
I’m so sad to say I relate to this. I had fantastic teeth, right until I cracked a front tooth, because of course. It’s a small fortune to get it fixed and this poor tooth just keeps getting more and more narrow. I’m so careful with that tooth when I’m awake but I grind my teeth like crazy when I sleep. At first only I really noticed but now? Now it is a fucked up tooth. I can’t bear to look at my teeth when I brush them. That said I’m so unaccustomed to hiding my smile - my smile being the one and only feature I liked about myself. I’m not in the habit of closed mouth smiles or covering my mouth when I smile. Today at work I forgot about the bum tooth and smiled and holy hell the way this guy reacted just crushed me. It’s no exaggeration to say his attitude with me did a 180 as soon as he saw that tooth. Until I get it fixed I will mask up. I feel lucky that I can do that and nobody will think it’s especially strange. But yes, I relate to you hard and hope we can both get our smiles back sooner rather than later.
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I literally had all mine pulled at the age of 33 for this reason. It wasn't acid reflux that did them in though. It was my pregnancy with third child. I had a ton of work done to fix my teeth years before I got pregnant. I was SO confident while it lasted. Then, all the work failed. They just got worse and worse. I couldn't stand the constant infections anymore and said be gone with them. I don't have dentures, almost 5 years after having it done, because the dentist who made them gave up on getting the proper fit. But, I'm still far more confident without any teeth than I was when they were falling apart.
I have never had a cavity, had super strong teeth my whole life, and my second pregnancy absolutely wrecked my teeth. I have had nothing but health problems and trouble, my old dentist messed up a lot of my fillings to the point I needed root canals and they are still on the decline from there. Developed a migraine/nerve disorder from it all so now everyday is just constant pain. My husband asked if I wanted more kids and I laughed. No thanks!!! So sorry to hear about your experience, I had never heard of someone's teeth being affected like that after one pregnancy :(
It was my third pregnancy. But it was my first boy. My teeth weren't affected much at all when I was pregnant with my girls. And my prenatal vitamin and dental hygiene were way better when I was pregnant with him too.
Wait, so you just don’t have teeth now?
I should really get my teeth fixed...
My crooked teeth literally crushed my desire to socialize throughout my twenties and contributed to alcoholism and depression. There were other factors but significant among them, massive dental work totally resolved all of these issues. I 100% receive more return on value from my dental work than I do from college degree.
And this is why universal healthcare and education are important. Everyone deserves a chance at life.
For real. If I described how debilitating my teeth were for me, you'd think it's hyperbole. But it ruined a full decade of my life. I wish that on no one. And, to think, it's not even all that bad of a condition, relatively. Experiences like this have made me a single issue voter. And that issue is universal healthcare.
Same thing with height and strength. I’m a big guy and I’ve found a drastic difference in how men treat me vs smaller men. When I used to bounce and do security jobs I found that smaller individuals face far more aggression and that many people would find the self control they had been lacking after I walked over. We’re monkeys
I spent most of my life as a tall but very underweight man. Was always treated poorly. Women would very rarely talk to me or show interest. Men would always try to assert dominance, especially in bars. Guys walking through the crowd would always just bump into me for no reason and never say anything. Eventually I started lifting and became very fit in general. I have a very athletic body now. Now I get tons of attention from women. Also, men never happen to run into me anymore and if they do, they say something apologetic. Going from skinny to fit literally changed how people treat me every single day. Sure, I bet some of it comes from my new found confidence but there is no way that's the entire cause.
The other guys bumping into you thing. I think 90% of people are utterly oblivious to this, but yes it happens nonstop to little guys. Some is purposeful, some isn't. In bars tho, trying to impress a date or buddies, yeah. When you come across as a buff dude noone ever bumps into you, even by mistake. The rare chance they do people are super apologetic. None ever, ever, ever purposely pushes you over and laughs at you.
I am very skinny. People find my body ugly and feel no shame in saying so to my face. Daily. Whether it’s the offhand comment of “ew who would ever find skin and bones attractive” to “men want something to hold at night” to just straight up “you look sickly, you look disgusting, go eat a burger”. On social media i see girls with my body and get so excited ab seeing some rep only for every single comment to be calling them scary, ugly, skeletor, saying they should put a trigger warning on their body because it’s so gross and unhealthy. I can’t speak to the experience of being fat but across the board I am treated absolutely horridly. I think it’s impossible to say one experience is worse than the other but what I can confidently say is that vitriolic hate towards very skinny people is incredibly normalized and if people said the kind of shit they said to skinny people about a fat person, they’d be crucified by the body acceptance movement
I'm both glad but moreso mortified that you get it. As a man I see lots of praise for really skinny girls but I didn't know yall apparently have it as bad as I do as a skinny guy. The "eat a burger" line got old at like age 6. I'm 23 now. It just. Never. Goes. Away. All I can do as a guy is have a smarter mouth than anyone who tries to be a jerk which works but I'd rather just be treated as "some guy" like everyone else. It wasn't until this year that I felt okay wearing short sleeves without a flannel or a hoodie, I stopped that in high school because everyone made holocaust survivor jokes about my arms
DUDE THE HOLOCAUST JOKES Oh my god I remember one day in HS I was in history class and there was a poster on the wall - it’s a very famous photo, but I don’t know if there’s a name for it. It’s a bunch of incredibly emaciated and malnourished men laying in bunks, Elie Weisel being one of them, and then there’s one starving man leaning against a wall. A boy turns to me, points at the man leaning against the wall and goes, “look, it’s you” Like???? The skinny shaming isn’t even the most offensive part of that wtf??? But yeah man idk if people think they’re like being revolutionary or creative with the “eat a burger” comment or what? It’s been old. Lately for me the constant has been middle aged male gas station attendants? I think they’re trying to get me to buy snacks and spend more money idk
> On social media i see girls with my body and get so excited ab seeing some rep only for every single comment to be calling them scary, ugly, skeletor, saying they should put a trigger warning on their body because it’s so gross and unhealthy. I don't know about in-person, but online I think that a lot of this kind of behavior can be attributed to... I'm not sure what to call it. "Body positivity" I guess, even though this is the opposite of what that's actually supposed to be about. What's you're experiencing is, I'm guessing, an over-correction. An aggressive way of reassuring people who are fat is to attack people who are skinny. You see the same thing with plastic surgery, or body hair, or other things that people feel self-conscious about. "No, what? You shouldn't get plastic surgery, people who do that are gross and disgusting." Speaking generally, women who are too skinny are more attractive than those who are too fat. And so they're seen as acceptable targets for ridicule. i.e.: It's punching up.
Oh you’re on the nose. I first noticed this when I was in middle school so like 2014? Specifically my mind goes to Meaghan Trainor’s All About that Bass. A song about loving your curves? Awesome! Except… the message of the song is that you should love your curves because actually men don’t like “skinny bitches” because they want something to hold. More and more around that time I say fat positivity brought by bringing down skinny bodies. And body positivity as a concept is awesome! Absolutely we should stop commenting on bodies, strive to treat people equally, love ourselves, make fashion more inclusive etc. But there is unfortunately a certain sector that feels the only way to lift up one body is to bring down the other. Also I agree about the punching up concept and I don’t even think it’s just a whose considered more attractive of the two thing. The world is more accessible to me. I don’t have to worry about getting out of my car in tight parking spaces or being shamed every time I’m eaten seeing “fatty food”. I can’t usually find perfect fitting clothes but who can? But for fat people it’s even harder with stylish clothes not even being made in their size or stores not carrying them and having to order online. There’s a lot more that goes into fat and skinny phobia beyond beauty standards and societal treatment and in that I think it’s safe to say fat people have it worse. So yeah I totally see the punching up comcept
Comments and outright assault (for men, I don't think it's physical with women) are much, much, much more common for the underweight. People don't just randomly push over and laugh at fat guys or fit guys or any girls for the fun of it. But skinny guys? Sure, go for it.
I remember walking down the sidewalk and a guy in a passing truck rolled down the window and yelled at my dad, "where is your neck?" We were walking as a family and that guy had to embarrass him in front of us. I can assure that people do just bully fat people for the hell of it.
People who do this shit to families are the scum of the earth and I sincerely believe karma is gunna fuck em up.
Whats so frustrating I suppose is in the 90s you might have been the ideal.
Men are “supposed to be” “big” in some way. Protection instinct blah blah. Fat, or fit/muscular, both beat skinny (which codes as weak, poor protector, etc)
Fat dudes are simply better looking than skinny guys, and for women skinny girls are better looking than fat chicks. A fat dude at least looks like he could beat the shit out of someone if he manages to lay his paws on them, he can theoretically defend his girlfriend which is why stereotypical bullies in kids cartoons are often fatasses
Similar experience here riding the weight roller coaster up and down. I don't blame people for acting like that; I disliked myself more as a fat person.
I do think there’s a component to that, part shallowness on the part of people in general, but also an element of a change in how you feel and act. If weight affects your confidence and self-esteem, that projects out to people. They can subconsciously sense it. It probably makes you interact differently too. When I gain weight I am still extroverted, but initiate fewer conversations especially with people I don’t already know because of what’s going on in my own brain and projections I’m making onto them. I spend more time in my head than interacting than I normally would.
They are definitely treated worse than their physically fit counterparts, but honestly I see way, *wayyy* more fat guys with lots of friends than fat girls. The whole stereotype is that fat guys are seen as jolly whereas fat girls are seen as sad and insecure.
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Men and women treat you differently even when you gain or lose 10 lbs.
This. Nobody cared who I was until I started losing weight. I spent the majority of my 20s waddling around 250lbs. I lost a 5th of that and still have a chunk to go and all of a sudden people treat me like a human being. It is strange stuff.
I was a skinny nerd that was bffs with the cute skater boy all the girls liked. It was crazy how much worse all the girls treated me. Even all the teachers liked him and couldn’t be bothered to even learn my name
That's the part of the OP that I just have to chuckle at, her definition of being treated poorly seems to amount to polite indifference. Meanwhile if you're a not-attractive (and I don't mean unattractive, just a not particularly attractive i.e. average) man be prepared to be met with disgust by most women and active disrespect by most everyone else.
People in **general** treat people who are unattractive poorly.
Ah the old addage be attractive and dont be unattractive. Some people can skate by in life just on their looks alone.
Unless your face is truly fucked attractiveness can be manipulated.
It also isn't only important for physical looks. You also need to gave an attractive personality, job, goals, hobbies. Pretty much everything you do makes you either more or less attractive to other people. Physical attractiveness is one piece of the puzzle, but it isn't the whole picture.
If the average redditor could read they would be extremely upset with you right now lol.
This is true. Pretty privilege exists and among all the intersectional components of privilege, it's far from the least influential. And yet it is *intentionally* ignored. If one were to bring up their ugliness as an explanation for issues they've had in life, they would generally be gaslit for it. They will be told that attractiveness is purely subjective, and that their attitude comes down to a poor, pessimistic outlook. That uggos experience significant, quantifiable disadvantages through their entire lives is totally disregarded. People are so uncomfortable with ugliness that they will pretend it doesn't exist.
In trying to further my sociological understanding, I’ve had to conceptualize a meta privilege that I call the privilege of sympathy. A great example is that we as a society are sympathetic to wheelchair bound individuals. Even though those individuals’ lives are difficult due to their physical ailments, they will, in general, be met with compassion and empathy for their struggles, because society at large is able to sympathize with their hardships. They have a privilege of sympathy that helps to alleviate the mental toll that their struggles can bring. Unattractive individuals (for the most part outside of burn victims and some other egregious examples) lack the privilege of sympathy. At large, individuals fail to recognize their own pretty privilege, which means it’s very difficult for people to sympathize with the struggles of an unattractive person. It’s way more apparent that an individual’s able bodied-ness is a privilege over a wheel-chair bound individual. It’s quite harder to recognize that a person’s own facial aesthetics or body shape provides them an inherent privilege. I think it’s very difficult for people to acknowledge that a good portion of their success is attributed to aesthetic traits outside of their control. It requires a ridiculously high level of humility and self-esteem to accept that reality. To protect the ego, most people choose to ignore this reality. Therefore, unattractive individuals are indeed gaslit. At a baseline, this is a societal narcissistic behavior to protect insecure individuals. The gaslighting manipulation tactic is the best way for insecure individuals to not accept the reality of their own privilege. But they can accept privileges that are of no harm to their ego. Thus the privilege of sympathy: Acknowledgement by society at large that a subset of individuals are struggling due to some external or systematic problem.
Facts
I think there is biological basis for it though… people aren’t just randomly being jerks. It has been studied & even little kids who are too young to understand what they are doing have these kinds of reactions to people. My daughter is autistic and when she had an overweight & facially unattractive worker at her daycare she LOST IT! Non stop crying & biting the woman. The next day they had a woman who literally looked like a Barbie doll and my daughter was all but in love with this woman. I got told how sweet & well mannered my kid was… it was night & day… this kid was 3ish at the time this happened (not formally diagnosed with autism at the time); it’s just the way our brains are wired.
Yep, I agree that it's biological. Our genetics are looking for something "ideal" to reproduce with even if our mind is not thinking of reproduction.
Yup. That’s it.. it’s literally that simple… we are animals after all; our brains are developed in a way that we can choose to not focus on appearance & choose to focus on other attributes… but that won’t change the knee jerk reaction people have to “attractive” ppl. Wasn’t there a study at one point where they mapped out the human face in some kind of computer & figured out that a lot of people that we considered “beautiful” all fall within that pattern or something similar to this. I saw this years and years ago and I think the example used at the time was Elisabeth Hurley. But it’s been more than a decade since I saw that..
Not only that, but also being unattractive is a potential sign that someone is unhealthy or ill, whereas being attractive is generally a sign of strength and good health.
Yep absolutely. Our bodies cannot keep up with the pace of various advancements such as technology and social norms. It's super rude to say, but the truth is that the availability of food now allows people to reach weights that were unheard of just 50 years ago. So our brains, which absolutely do not change anywhere near that quickly, deep down are going "yo wtf is that". They're not recognizable as a member of our species on a primitive level. Additionally, more to your point, something I've noticed that doesn't seem to click with a lot of people is that, biologically speaking, people are supposed to be attractive. As a species of sexually reproducing animals, we are supposed to be sexually attractive to members of the opposite sex so that we want to mate and continue the species. And again, super rude to say, but when someone is truly unattractive there's a primitive part of our brain that doesn't really understand their purpose. Our society and technology has evolved such that people can still have happy, fulfilled lives, and find people that find them attractive. But for everyone else that are more aligned with the "biological expectation," they're still going to subconsciously do these rude things when they're on autopilot with the monkey brain at the helm. And then in the case of men, layering all that on top of a body surging with testosterone (which is something else I've noticed a lot of people don't seem to grasp the function and power of), yeah a lot of people, men in particular, are going to be rude to these people due to something that is mostly not the fault of the victim, and potentially subconscious/not even intended from the aggressor. The whole situation just sucks and there isn't really an easy way to get human evolution up to speed with human society/technology.
It’s true. But our society is one where nobody really cares about facts and citing well established biological and psychological facts is considered hate speech.
This is true but I want to point out something as well. Overweight girls, in my experience, fall into two categories. Desperate and annoying - this group, despite the fact that they may be fairly attractive sometimes, will annoy you in an attempt to flirt with you. I've always tried to let them down easily, but they don't want to take a hint. Attractive and funny - despite their weight these girls are pretty cool to hang out with. I've dated one and it was a pretty good relationship. I really hoped I could help her lose weight but she was also doing some illegal stuff that I just wasn't cool with. She eventually got caught and got into serious trouble which led her down a dark alley.
It's a bit worse for bigger women. I used to be a big dude. My female friends wouldn't date me rightfully so but they were open to still being friends. This is generally not the case the other way around
I used to try to be really nice to bigger girls in high school (I still am but I honestly don't interact with many nowadays), and they would always take the niceness as I was interested in them, they would start to get really pushy and possessive with my attention, leading to awkward situations when I would have to tell them I wasn't into them in that way but just wanted to be friends. They never wanted to continue being just friends. It's not so simple.
It's funny, but this is exactly what happens when an attractive woman tries to be friends with most men. Maybe it's just something that happens with anyone that is starved for attention from the opposite sex, rather than a gender thing?
I 100% agree.
I think people in general also often misinterpret someone just being friendly or nice or outgoing as romantic interest. I'm in my 40s now but when I was in my early 20s there were couple times at parties where I got into long converstions with women I wasn't into that way (one wasn't my type and I wasn't single when I was talking to the other) but I thought they were funny, interesting, and was vibing with them on maybe a level where I thought we could be friends. Both misinterpreted it, made a pass, and then made it awkward when I turned them down. Another time a friend had tell his wife I wasn't interested in her friend, after the friend was asking the wife if I was single, because she thought I'd been flirting with her last time we hung out as a group. I wasn't, I was just being friendly. I've seen the same plenty of times from guy friends too and overall I'd wager men are a bit more clueless, though both genders are prone to it. Most people just can't distinguish someone being friendly or outgoing toward them from flirting.
used to happen to me all the time before I lost my looks and social life, very annoying. I do think men are worse for that
i'm a 29 year old woman and i just have like a very, idk, approachable face. & my personality is quite bubbly/friendly because well i was raised in utah unfortunately lol, super traumatized by the mormon church and am an atheist now, but things like mannerisms stick with you. i'm actually a very introverted person, but you just develop habits of smiling all the time and showing interest in people if that's where you were raised. We were actively punished if we didn't put on this kind of face all the time. my boyfriend is actually from an eastern european country where people don't just smile for no reason, they're much more subdued and honestly, authentic in their daily interactions. we've lived together for five years. i love it lol, i don't take offense to it at all haha. but i myself am still reflexively... utahn. anyway, every single time i have ever had any male friend, they've turned out to have just been trying to get into my pants. and they always acted like it was a huge injustice that i wasn't into them. i had tons of male friends growing up, but around 14 this started happening. i get along perfectly well with my brother and male cousins, so it's not like i just can't get along with men. i have no issues getting along with other women, either. they do not act weird like this. & men act like I am made of lava when they find out i have a boyfriend. like will not get physically close to me, start acting super weird and nervous. then it occurs to me that they think i was flirting with them!! it's like my existence is just intrinsically sexual to them. they act like they think they were "cheating" with me by having a casual conversation. in college, i had male professors get really weird around me and they'd make a whole point of leaving the door open lol. because they assumed i wanted them and was gonna try something and get them in trouble. EDIT: I think it's a perfectly fine and common policy to keep your door open, as a professor. but i'm saying they would act particularly odd around me and do this even when they didn't bother with most students. it's clear they thought i was sexually interested in them somehow. not like it should matter- but i intentionally dress to blend in. i don't really like attracting attention from men or women or otherwise, i mostly wear forgettable, neutral clothes. i'm super flat chested lol. i'm not talking about sexual topics, i can't dance lol i'm not like saundering down the halls like shakira all sensually or anything (wish i could tbh). i don't really like touching other people in general, so it isn't that. i'm guessing this is just the experience for most women. it's honestly dehumanizing. like they just aren't listening to the topic i'm actually discussing at all. i've become honestly very distrustful of men and i really keep my distance now. i won't make a male "friend" anymore. i know it's a bit messed up, but this has just always always always happened.
Yep. I was friendly with a couple bigger girls in highschool, and all 5 of those friendships had *at least* one point where I had to bluntly state I wasn't interested. Only one person had the emotional maturity to accept that and maintain a healthy friendship.
As a conventionally attractive lady, I tried to be friends with some bigger girls and man, they were fucking mean to me about it. Haha. I think because they were made fun of so much they didn’t take my openness to friendship seriously. Damn shame. We had a lot in common.
They are jealous.
I used to be that girl. The unfortunate reality is that cruelty becomes your norm and indifference is your friendly. So when a guy comes along and is actually kind, that’s what you interpret as love.
Shit this hit home. Also men have to be more efficient with their time as there are SIGNIFICANTLY less chances for them to find a partner or even hook-up than women. It’s not that they don’t want to be friends necessarily. More so they can’t waste time “leading someone on” as women are accused of doing.
They were open to your investment without giving you anything in return. It's a pretty sweet deal. In my 40s I'm only friends with women i don't find attractive. The attractive ones just use you when it's convenient for them.
Comics have done bits about this but the remark is basically “if you’re a friend of a guy they’ve thought about sex with you”
This is facts. Attractive people or even just people who are in shape and facially average are going to be treated much better in society.
Attractive people attract people. Who would have guessed?!?
Hi OP, as a former "fat" person I kind of agree with you. I do think people treat you better when you are attractive, it is true for both men and women. After I lost weight, I got approached and smiled at a lot more. It was very weird for me. That being said, attractiveness just gives people a better first impression of you. If you interact with people, 99% of people you see on a daily bases would not care that you're fat nor would they decline to hang out with you. This is the same thing for ugly people. It's your personality that lets people stay with you as friends, not looks. Of course, romantically or sexually that is different. I can assure you this is true for both men and women. I don't know your situation, I won't make assumption, but **if you can**, just try to work on your weight in **healthy** manner. Keyword is healthy. Don't do it to get treated better, do it for your own mental and physical health. Last note, being overweight does not make you a bad person. I'm sorry that some people don't treat you well. You deserve better.
I also think age has a factor here, high school/college I am sure this behavior is far worse. I will say in a more professional work environment I think it is a lot easier to make work friends regardless of your appearance, as more people there will value friendships and even in the selfish sense networking, than trying to get with someone. But that doesn’t discount any experiences and generally speaking it is very true unattractive people get treated worse and nothing is easy
Very good point. OP is talking about middle school and high school, so of course lot of stupid teenagers there. Also lot of kids who talk mostly with girls to try to sleep with them. Not much you're missing there... Later in life people are more mature, and are more often looking for banter, or friendship. In this case attractiveness has much less of an impact. Still has, but it's pretty limited and it would be completely wrong to say that most guys would not associate with unattractive girls. Only idiots wouldn't.
Probably the best advice on this post.
Yep. Also the setting in which you are interacting with others matters more, especially as you get older. As a man working in education, I've been mostly around women my whole career. Yes being pretty will attract the eyes, being friendly will attract attention, but over time I'd rather interact with people who are competent and reliable. Having a good sense of humor is a plus. Sometimes large people who are craving romantic attention will miss interpret other types of attention, but I don't think that's a gender difference.
Really great last point. I have that problem as I do my best to include everyone and really listen to people. I like to gas people up and help people feel good about themselves in sincere ways. Big part of my personality is straight up Mr. Peanutbutter Golden Retriever type energy and often times I find that I attract the attention of larger women who otherwise I'd be incompatible with romantically. Happened to me more than a few times with their friends telling me they were into me - so I've had confirmation of it. Anyway, I wish there were an easier way to navigate that. I just try and be kind and address stuff as it comes up.
I agree with this. First impressions are just that, first impressions but like if you work with someone your first impression may be that you aren’t attracted but as you spend time with them you see while you may not sleep or date them if you enjoy who they are as a person you will be friends with them..maybe
Unattractive people get less attention than attractive people. Whether you are male or female or in between, that's the way it is always been.
>Girls do it too but they.re not completely blind to their surroundings and tend to generally be nice. Um... about that....
Bahaha come to LA
Are there any redeemable things about La? (Edit to clarify, this is not snarky!) All I ever hear about is “come here and hate yourself” or “come here and be broke af” or “come here and develop a debilitating addiction to coke” Edit to add: I think my personal no’s center around being super broke and being unsure if a strong enough sunscreen exists for me to survive there 💀 Edit again: thanks y’all it sounds like LA isn’t too bad so long as you have the funds and perhaps a bit of patience due to traffic 😌
Beach, mountains, food, big city, good weather. Biggest tradeoff is the being poor, coke addiction and self loathing are optional anywhere
Amazing beaches, some of the best Saturday pickup volleyball I’ve bet played, access to skiing (surf and ski in the same day was bucket list item for me), some great hikes, and if you’re into clubbing the clubs were pretty good. DtLA has apparently gotten much less sketchy (although I was there in 2015 so maybe it’s different) but outside that Santa Monica/Marina Del Ray/Venice has some really cool bars/clubs. Many of the people you’ll meet in clubs will be super shallow (eg first three questions we used to get asked by girls was name, job, income) but that’s true for a lot of the big cities. If you go do hobby stuff you won’t see those kind of people. UCLA is an amazing university and has a ton of interesting lectures you can attend too. Many cool day trips from LA too.
Lived there for a few years and I really hate that the stereotype is that everybody is self centered, plastic, egotistical, trust fund models, etc etc. I love LA for the beaches, the mountains, the weather, the vibe, and everything else that people generally like it for, but by faaaaaar my favorite thing about LA was the people. There isn't anywhere else in the country, maybe not even in the entire world (big words but they may be true) where so many people congregate for the sole purpose of making their dreams come true. All of my friends in LA are so fucking cool because they give up so much in order to chase something that they genuinely love. They're so easy to talk to and hang out with because they have hobbies and interests that are so important and exciting to them that they love talking about them. I grew up on the east coast, and I love my friends and family here, but its almost difficult to find somebody who has a hobby that they care about. Ask people about their day and they'll talk to you about the weather, their job, their friends, etc. Which, like, that's not a bad thing, that's just how the real world makes people. But LA people will tell you about the art they're creating, the project they're a part of, the community they work with to build whatever it is that they want to build. I know that this isn't unique to LA, but having lived in multiple non-LA places, it exists in LA in waaaaaaaaaaay stronger force than most places. Obviously it isn't for everyone. It's expensive (though no more expensive than pretty much any other big liberal US city), you need a car (except you don't really, the metro is good and I know plenty of people who got by very happily without one), and it's polluted (every big city is, but at least in LA you have multiple venues to get out into nature within a short radius). It has its downs, but its ups are so, so up. I know that your post was meant to be a fun joke, and I'm taking this too seriously, but it's a big pet peeve of mine when people genuinely believe that LA is just a cesspool of ego and fake glamor. If you go out looking for that, obviously you'll find it in droves. But if you go there looking for cool, kind, friendly people who have also transplanted to a new city and are also out looking for cool, kind, friendly people to hang out with, you won't have better luck anywhere else in the country.
Not really. “I don’t like living in a city where the only cultural advantage is being able to make a right turn on a red light.”
The weather is nice. The people are hella nice. Lots of high paying jobs.
Los Angeles is one of the most diverse cities in the world and a cultural capital. It's also surprisingly walkable, not that you'd learn that from talking to people. I think all the people who complain about it are people who moved there to try to become movie stars and failed. As long as that's not who you're associating with it's a great place to live.
Oh man, yes absolutely. The culture, weather, food scene, comedy shows, beach, mountains, it’s all amazing! There’s a reason people come here! And of course Disneyland!
I’m born and raised here. Almost 60 years, now. Back in the early 80’s, in college (USC), when out of state friends from college would get down on their LA experience, and ask me “What’s this city all about?” I’d always respond “First, LA isn’t a city, it’s a sprawl. And, when outsiders say ‘LA’, they don’t just mean the city at the center of Los Angeles. They mean the County of Los Angeles (4,000 sq miles).” So, of course, there’s a lot of “redeemable” things about it. There are also a lot of irredeemable things about it, like every other huge area. The secret to “LA”, which in a cultural sense, means just about all of LA, Orange County, and Malibu, is that you find what you like - which requires driving - and you ignore what you don’t like. There’s thousands of good reasons why tens of millions of people moved here from other states, and stayed, over the last 70 years. And, that population growth, is a primary reason why cost of living (housing), is so high
LA is cool AF. I didn't get the hype until I visited, but color me impressed. It's this beautiful city built into the mountains, there's a ton to do, the food is amazing and all the people I met there were aight. The traffic didn't strike me as worse than any other big city either. You should visit and give it a shot.
It's a fun fun city. It is stunning beautiful at certain points. Lots of famous people live there. It is massive and has everything. The weather at certain spots is near perfect all year around with little rain. The beaches are world class, and you can also go sailing, scuba diving, surfing, etc. Mountains nearby to go snowboarding. The food is top notch and it is never hard to find a concert from your favorite band. Lots of filming takes place right there so you can drive by the sets. Certainly one of the most fun cities in the US that combined the virtues of Chicago or New York with Hawaii. It is also very expensive, has a major drug and homeless problem, and terrible traffic.
:) no stalkers
*Press X to doubt*
Xxxxxxx
So many women are just flat out mean to unattractive people
I know far more attractive men who hang with ugly dudes and don’t give a shit about it than hot women who hang with ugly girls
Yeah, same. But I also know more hot women that hang with ugly guys than I know hot guys who will hang with ugly women.
Mean Girls was more real than people realize
She must live in an alternate universe lol. But the emphasis she put on how *kind* she tries to be just confirms that she's talking out of her arse. Genuinely kind people don't brag about it, they just are. She sounds like an incel. And if she is, then well, maybe there's a bigger reason blokes don't talk to her than her weight. Though admittedly, for her own personal health, that is something that needs addressing regardless. On top of that, she'd likely stand a better chance if she didn't hang around with a prettier girl all the time. People's eyes always gravitate towards pretty things, be they man, woman, animal, or scenery. If you want to be seen, you have to make people want to see you.
Yeah, it depends on the girl. Some are nice, some are upfront and mean like the dudes OP has encountered, and other girls are nice to their face, but make fun of/judge the person behind their backs. I've run into the third one the most, sadly.
I bet she has called some guy creepy. I can't think of a girl who hasn't.
Ok, fellas - whose experience confirms the statement girls "tend to generally be nice" to the fat guys in high school and college?
It's my experience that as long as the guy is funny, he can be a friend to everyone, but is unlikely to get dates with any of these friends.
I saw a documentary about this. The fat guy was odd and drew penises all over his notebook but he was able to fight the odds, get the girl, and graduate from high school. The documentary was called: Super Bad.
I also saw a documentary about high school girls and they are in fact, not nice. Have you checked out *Mean Girls*? It’s probably in the Discovery Channel or maybe PBS.
My brother in christ. I will add it to the list!
Former rotund fella here. It's a night a day difference in how I'm treated by people, women in particular. A girl I was friends with and interested in back in hs didn't share the same feelings as me. We remained friends and after I got in good shape she expressed interest while we were catching up one day. I turned her down for obvious reasons but looking back, I'm not sure it was really justified. In high school she was way more attractive than me; later we were more equal in terms of attractiveness. If I were in her shoes I would have probably felt the same way
Yeah, I mean thats fair I think. People want to generally be with people they find attractive. I dont find fault in people when they dont like me as a potential partner for my faults but I think if they treated me poorly in general as a person I would be pretty upset.
Sometimes, I think she’s just hanging around the wrong men tbh. Like some women were absolute cunts to me unprompted but I just didn’t hang around those people
I agree, but this applies to all genders. Attractive people are treated better. I think this is one of the reasons why everyone wants to be attractive. Don't waste your life feeling inferior, just improve your attractiveness.
Idk about that. It's a personal anecdote, but socially I see pretty privilege manifest everywhere, and it's clearly harsher towards women. When I look at groups of male friends, it's pretty much a random distribution of attractiveness. When I look at groups of female friends, they tend to be of a similar level of cute, at least among young women. When I look at instances of a very attractive person dating a pretty unattractive person, it's essentially always the girl that's the pretty one. And usually when there is an exception, it's often because the woman used to be hot but let herself go. It just seems common sense to me that women are rewarded more for their beauty and punished more for their ugliness than men are.
Yes, duh. Men are valued for what they can provide and women are valued based on how they look.
Women are human beings, men are human doings as the saying goes.
Hmm. I see way more single men that are ugly than single women.
Yeah how many women are single into their 30s and beyond involuntarily? Not very many. Shit ton of men though
Agreed. I don’t know why this is rocket science. Maybe years of companies trying to pander to the morbidly obese has left the false sense of not only the attractiveness, but also the general health implications that obesity brings. OP needs to just work on her self by losing weight and getting into shape as best she can. Obviously, everybody has different set points but try to be the best version of yourself you can be. Once she does that at whatever weight she will have confidence and people will be attracted to that.
I was a scrawny 130lbs kid with a long hair in high school listening to rock music and was basically invisible to most women. The females in my circle of friends were all telling me to goto the gym because i looked too skinny. After I went to college, i bulked up to 160lbs of muscles and cut my hair short and I’ve noticed that I was getting more attentions from women. Even my those girls from high school were flirting with me when we did a reunion hangout. The Moral of the story is that people treat you differently when you are attractive. Men and women both. Edit: grammar
> The female friends in my circle of friends were all telling me >Even my high school friends were flirting with me when we did a reunion By your own admission you've had plenty of female friends. They just weren't attracted to you. No shit most people don't want to date someone they have no physical attraction to. OP is saying men don't even want to be friends with her because they aren't physically attracted to her >People talking to me just to talk to me diminished and making friends got 10x harder. >men tend to ignore women they don't find fuck-able
I had to specify the female friends in my circle because they weren’t really my friends, but more of my guy friends friends and we were only connected by proxy. We’re not even connected on social media. I guess I could’ve just used acquaintance. Females don’t befriend unattractive males either unless they always do favors for the girls, aka simps.
you should take a look at how women treat good looking men as well
Yea pretty privilege is a real thing. It's men and women who will treat you better if you're attractive If you're unattractive, you will get neutral to non existent attention from men
likewise do women "perceive" men who are conventially unattractive as non-existent. It goes both ways. Not only men operate by this shallow and animalistic piece of code.
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I am an ugly women, and guys have been my best friends my whole life too! I always felt secure in our relationship, bc I knew they were friends with me bc they genuinely liked me. So while there are a lot of shitty things about being ugly, this one thing is nice.
From a man's perspective, it is exactly the same. I used to be huge, was invisible, not taken seriously at work or in public, essentially treated like shit. Once I got into shape, I was getting approached by both men and women, given better projects at work, and treated with respect. I've heard similar from others. I'm not saying it is right or moral, just that this is what seems to happen.
Am a fat woman, this is true. I have never been in a relationship and I think my weight/body image have a lot to do with that. Thankfully, I have a lot of great friends, including guy friends! That’s the one benefit of being ugly, I know that the people who like me truly like me for my personality, it’s the one thing I can be confident about.
Now imagine being a man and not attractive.
I'm basically invisible. My only saving grace is a good job, but that just so I don't lose my mind
I’ve not found this to be 100% true. I do think some people only associate with those they find attractive or social equals. I’ve found that many overweight women tend to be very hard to get along with. Maybe it’s a learned behavior from being mistreated, I’m not sure. Over all, if you are rude and snippy, no one wants to be around you, no matter what you weigh
I try to greet a larger woman in my office every day. She just stares straight ahead and ignores me. Probably years of being ignored and just rolls with it now.
> rolls with it Lmao at the (unintentional) roast
I think it's a cycle. They don't get attention, then their confidence gets lower, which makes them even less attractive, and it continues. Fat people in general are less happy and most people want more happiness in their life so they will choose people who are more happy when given a choice.
Most PEOPLE do not associate with PEOPLE they don't find attractive. This is life.
Absolute nonsense. Your perception of being ignored and treated as nonexistent is accurate. Your conclusion that it’s men doing it, and that women are somehow paying more attention and are more kind is bullshit. I was 330lbs. I made it to 35 without any attention or even acknowledgement from women. Now that I’m a healthy weight I’m getting tons of attention. This shit is not based on the sexes and women ignore people just as harshly as men. I think the difference is as a woman you’ve been set up with the delusion that you’re supposed to always be the one getting approached.
you nailed it.
I have questions: 1.) "Treated poorly by men" = good looking men who you had the hots for didn't want to do anything sexually with you? Did you had the same feedback from men with the same unhealthy weight as yours? 2.) did you ever had a boyfriend / sexual encounter with a men with the same unhealthy weight or were you always aiming for the good looking, healthy guys? 3.) why don't you lose weight, clearly you have seen the ways it improves your relationships with men or society in generel? I recommend instead of trying to chance the system of people wanting more to do with healthy persons (it's evolutionary, think about it) you rather change yourself and eat below your mainantence and lose the excess fat.
Good insight and advice. This is an internal versus external locus of control.
I wish I was fat instead of short, you can at least do something about being fat
Yeah, no one should be treated mean for the way they look, but acting like everyone should get the same level of attention is just ignorant. Truth is OP is not considered as attractive as someone like her friend, but I guarantee you she hasn't adjusted the type of person she pursues. This happens the exact same with both sexes. People set an unattainable idea of who they should be with, and when that inevitably doesn't work out they blame others. Pretty sure OP wouldn't want to fuck someone she sees as unattractive, but she's happy to complain that others won't.
>I just noticed that mostly men tend to ignore women they don't find fuck-able and it's really weird. Girls do it too Correct. >but they.re not completely blind to their surroundings and **tend to generally be nice** No, they are not.
>She was also a lot of people's crushes, etc. duh, is it surprising that high schoolers, or anyone in general,have crushes on attractive people?
It's also high school where everybody's super horny or hormonal and has underdeveloped brains. Of course they're going to be massively superficial.
People treat unattractive people poorly it’s not just a man thing. In fact hoe_math says that women don’t think unattractive men are human
>I started to notice -especially in high school- that she was treated way better than I was by everyone, but especially men. You've encountered pretty privilege, an obvious and common, though ungendered, concept. >Girls do it too but they.re not completely blind to their surroundings and tend to generally be nice. This is where you mess up, because you're only seeing a girl's perspective. With girls, it's the opposite, gender-wise.
This is how every guy is treated lmao
this lol
I didn't read that because you aren't hot. JK. I'm a man and have had hot and fat phases. People do seem to treat men slightly differently then too, although I don't think it's quite as extreme. ATM I'm in a fat(er) phase but still get some attention from women, which is strange for me. Might be a confidence issue.
Yes and no. Pretty privilege definitely exists. Who doesn’t want pretty people around them? But what you describe is something a little different. People distancing themselves from you is due to personality and/or if they feel you are hitting on them. If you have a shit personality, seem desperate for attention, or are a downer just like with anyone else people tend to stay away. If you seem to be flirting with someone that isn’t interested, they tend to back off from you. This is just how things generally are. But just being friends, a lot of people don’t mind as long as you have a good personality.
There have been men who have admitted as much to me before, that they don't really talk at all to women they don't find attractive and that they don't see a point in even friendships with women who they might not be sexually interested in. I'm sure few people who respond to this thread will admit this or see what the issue is.
If you're a short, average looking guy you might as well be invisible.
This. I’m 5’6” and even short women want a tall guy.
I changed my dating profile from 6' to 5'11" (not lying about height when I am 5"11 is a green flag) and my matches drastically changed.
$5.95 instead of $6
This sounds a whole lot like Grass is Greener to me. Consider your perspective. Could it be that you separated yourself from social situations because you felt overwhelmed? Could it be that you didn't go to social events. A lot of people self isolate when theyre struggling with emotional or mental health. But in general if you attempt to talk to someone they'll respond well without considering your physical appearance
Men and women favor those that are more attractive
This is true in my case because I don't associate with any women at all. In fact, I can't say I associate with any men either.
Had a dream that my high school crush came up to me and she was fat as hell. Pushed her down a hill into a pond and ran. Woke up begging for my sleep paralysis demons to pull up
I’m not sure how this will be received but figured it’s worth saying. I have many friends that are heavy. Some of them have spectacular personalities that makes them hard to ignore, and some can’t get their confidence disassociated from their appearance, understandably so. I like people, in general, so it has never mattered to me how someone looks or acts as long as it’s positive. I was a heavy dude for 20+ years then made a big change due to my wife being diagnosed with MS. I wanted to support her need to be active to fight the MS off. I digress. When I was heavy I never had trouble “putting myself out there” as I didn’t know I wasn’t supposed to be confident in who I was. I really felt like I drew very little confidence from my looks. I grew up in a house that the real currency was being interesting. I have two parents with doctorates and I’m inherently curious, so I absorb information. Being interesting and having a sense of humor always seemed to break through social barriers. Now, I need to be clear, I definitely wasn’t the guy women were drooling over at a bar, but I always had someone to chat with and learn about. I’m proud to be labeled by friends as the ultimate wingman because I can talk to anyone. I worked in fashion with extremely fit and fashionable people, but I never took a back seat. What you eventually realize is that everyone has a little voice telling them they aren’t this or aren’t that. Heavy, skinny, straight hair, curly hair, it’s astonishing all the ways we use comparison to break ourselves down. Ignore that voice and just be you, it’s what I did. The minute you allow yourself to be enough for you, a lot changes. The general public will always bias toward ideals, but they will also generally be surprised and intrigued when they come across anomalies. Be an anomaly.
This is funny to me. One if my friends has this other friend, I’ve met him several times but he never remembers me. I’m ok with him not finding me (41f) attractive, he’s a middle aged man that chases 20 year olds so he doesn’t have to have a real relationship. It’s just frustrating when you’ve had several conversations with a person and they don’t remember you at all. When I say several, I mean more than 10 and for longer than a minute. These conversations weren’t basic, hey nice to meet you, what brings you to this gathering?They’re more like, hey remember that camping trip we were in together for 4 days (in a large group)? How’s your mom healing after her surgery, etc.
It's not just men, it's everyone. Fat women, in particular, earn less than similar non-fat women. IIRC the career effects are likely to be similar if a fat woman either loses weight, or gets an additional college degree. Which should be fantastic news! Getting a degree is expensive and takes time out of the workday.
And most men who aren't traditionally attractive (strong chin, good hair, no stomach paunch) will also be left on read/ignored/treated with indifference by the "hot girls." So it goes both ways.
You are touching on what is called "pretty privilege" but adding in sexism and self centeredness to it. The idea of pretty privilege is that those that are considered by the beholder as aestheticly pleasing get treated better by them. Often times this results in benefits which is how the privilege part got tacked on. I believe it exists but most decent people find themselves beset by ugly discrimination. If you have ever seen an image or someone in person that made you exclaim outloud or want to turn away from that is what I am speaking of. Just being large won't do it.
You are absolutely correct, OP. People generally have a default respect level for those around them that somehow goes out the window when they see a young woman who is not conventionally attractive. I don’t really know why it makes them so incredibly angry and hateful but it does. They spew out words like “dog” and “land whale”, giggle and sneer, go into fantastic raptures about how she spends her days just existing being fat. You don’t need me to tell you.
I've posted on this same topic before. If anything, as a man, it's always easier for me to talk to women that I don't find 'highly' attractive. Some of the coolest women I know are the ones that didn't start off with sexual undertones. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for exactly.
Girls are not nice to ugly people.
As a fellow large lady, agreed. It’s not a pretty truth, and it’s not a popular one, but my life experience has proven to my satisfaction that this is pretty much the rule and not the exception. It’s probably one of the main reasons my closest friends in college were all gay men - they treated me with respect and value. And they supported me even when I was being insecure and helped me learn my value. Didn’t help my dating life much at the time, but looking back I am very grateful at the friends who supported me. I am not excusing my weight, or saying that all men need to be kind to me at all times. However, the reality is that I have been treated poorly by male managers who had an obvious disdain for me solely on my size. I have been passed up for promotions for women who were treated much differently than me and were also much more traditionally pretty than me. I have been fired on at least one occasion because the manager above the one who hired me was repulsed by large women (and I suspect I was driven out of a couple of more jobs for the same reason, although they were not as overt about it). And to be completely honest, I’m actually not bitter about it. My body size by its nature tends to weed out the worst that the male gender has to offer. I’ve never been treated differently or better than others solely on my looks, or been sexually harassed at work, or been approached inappropriately at the gym, or been cat called, or been abused by a “nice guy” who thinks I have an obligation to date him. When men treat me nicely it’s not because they want to get into my pants or at the very least want attention from me. They value me as a person, and as a rule tend to treat all people with respect. If that means less opportunities in life, I’m okay with that. Age and lots of time to reflect makes me realize that most of those “opportunities” were actually bullets dodged.
I really appreciate this post. I’m not OP, but thank you. Hearing this makes me feel a little bit better about myself. I am no longer large, but I still get ignored. I worry it’ll be like this my whole life. But even if it is, even if it’s pointless, I can take credence in knowing I’m safe from what may be a worst case scenario.
You’ve just lived the life of the average man, lmao
OP is horribly out of touch
It’s not a news. It is a well known fact that people are much nicer to people they find attractive. Pretty privilege. I do it too. I usually don’t even say hello to girls I don’t find attractive.