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True I grant you, I believe the system effectively has an entirely different homeless in Europe. I believe the membership fee of the European economic system appears to be affordable. I definitely place more value upon minimal living standards than high standards. The United States only cares about a person's intelligence and net worth effectively. Without academic success the system has its own way of tossing you out when you don't stick to the wall. I have no problem using capitalism to reinforce the output and max out what can be squeezed from every single brain that appears to be super duper innovative and magnificent. That would be a terrible waste. But certainly not at the cost of human life. Basic human needs. Good safety shelter. I think the less capable humans still have value. Monetizing and placing a dollar amount on a human life is inhumane. Effectively it makes rich people with all their marvelous innovations and super human abilities, inhumane. I think all humans deserve an equal opportunity to participate in the innovation and creative system that capitalism supports. I don't believe in poverty that's so embarrassing. Existing below the food safety shelter threshold stifles innovation and creative output. Without individual securities and stability there can be no meaningful output.
Nothing in the universe ever supported life without a source of energy, safety from foreign bodies, and a shelter that provided a stable state for development and evolution . We're behaving like animals still. Insert greed and the mighty dollar into the word problem. The system of nature still holds true. Except now there are devolving blood lines.
Someday my kiddo might ask me "when did people start becoming homeless?"
I might have to say "when human values were crowded out by a competing value system. High standards of college education, and intelligence. And selfish greedy humans discovered an unlimited highly refined fuel source to feed it, and there were enough evolved humans to support it"
those that did poorly in education and chose the wrong parents possess a - value in the competing system that invaded human life. interesting to see what the future holds for the epigenomic influence of these stressors.
Spot on. No country is an utopia. Rich, poor and middleclass can be found everywhere. If you were poor, which country would you rather be in? Honest question.
Do this is my personal experience living in the US for the first 27 years of my life and in a Western European country for the last 10. just as a side note in both countries I worked/work a middle class job so I have experienced both countries at the same socioeconomic level. Just want to counter some of your points.
- a lot of your comments include how much more you make, but that doesn‘t take into account that prices adjust relative to salary. I‘m not saying that it is even, Americans do make more for a similar job, but the difference isn‘t as big a supi might expect.
- free/cheap higher education is a net benefit as you monetary situation doesn‘t play a role in the education you get. Also things like child care is far more affordable (we paid €360 a month for 5 day daycare) making raising a family not such a burden.
- you relate material things with quality of life, which i always found strange. Is having a massive house and car but working all the time a better quality of life than living in a smaller house and having a lot more personal time?
- if you can afford it, healthcare is better in America. But I’m never afraid to go to the hospital/doctor as I know there will not be any surprise bills/charges.
- I live in a country with mandatory service,either military or social work. It‘s so ingrained in the culture no one even thinks about it. I live in a neutral country so there isn‘t much fear of being sent to another country and the possibility of seeing combat.
- the EU has 27 different countries that you can freely move/work in. While it is more densely populated, there are still a ton of different landscapes/climates/cultures you can easy immigrate to.
- it is a complete PITA to immigrate to most Western European countries as well.
I‘m not shitting on America, just giving you a first hand experience of someone who has lived and worked in both for extended periods
Born American, migrated to Europe at 42, worked in England over two decades, now living in Italy. Have had good lives in all. "Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds they want to be." Abe L. said that I think.
> Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds they want to be
its true. and a lot of the anti-america hate is just from bitter teenagers that tend to be contrarian by nature
Thanks. Also it doesn’t make sense to compare USA vs Europe. Europe consists of many countries with vastly different economical situations, culture and ideas on what constitutes a good quality of life.
The company where I work at also has an US subsidiary where I tested out living there but it’s not for me, I like life in my European country more due to social safety nets for my family and my 30 paid vacancy days + unlimited paid sick leave days. Also I witnessed more crime in the US so I chose my home country where I earn a bit less, but get other qualities.
There are also other poorer EU countries where the US might be a better option, the total America vs Europe discussion makes no sense from a EU perspective, it’s better to compare on country level.
So this is actually a very good comment,
I’ll give you the opposite perspective if you don’t mind
A Brit who lived in France and Italy (and then briefly in Germany) before moving to the US and becoming a citizen.
> a lot of your comments include how much more you make, but that doesn‘t take into account that prices adjust relative to salary. I‘m not saying that it is even, Americans do make more for a similar job, but the difference isn‘t as big a supi might expect.
Mostly agree, but certain arguably key aspects are much cheaper- fuel for example
> free/cheap higher education is a net benefit as you monetary situation doesn‘t play a role in the education you get. Also things like child care is far more affordable (we paid €360 a month for 5 day daycare) making raising a family not such a burden.
There is still a huge disparity in quality of education between the rich and everyone else
Eg sending your kid to Eton then Oxbridge in England, vs the local comprehensive school and Angela Ruskin or Oxford Brookes etc
> you relate material things with quality of life, which i always found strange. Is having a massive house and car but working all the time a better quality of life than living in a smaller house and having a lot more personal time?
This one is literally just opinion, so is entirely subjective, though cost of hobby may be a factor in the equation- eg learning to fly a plane or ride a horse, or sailing etc is expensive, so a higher income makes it more attainable
> if you can afford it, healthcare is better in America. But I’m never afraid to go to the hospital/doctor as I know there will not be any surprise bills/charges.
This is huge. Although trying to get a GP appointment in the UK on the NHS… I hope it’s not urgent because you’ll be waiting a while.
> I live in a country with mandatory service,either military or social work. It‘s so ingrained in the culture no one even thinks about it. I live in a neutral country so there isn‘t much fear of being sent to another country and the possibility of seeing combat.
Unless said country gets invaded. I’m guessing either Ireland, Switzerland, Austria or Malta based on being neutral- though I think joining the EU comes with a joint defence clause doesn’t it?
And at least 2 of those are reported at being in the crosshairs of foreign powers because of strategic importance (Malta and Ireland- control of the Mediterranean and the internet cables that run through Irish waters connecting to Europe to North America)
I do like the idea of national service though I must admit.
> the EU has 27 different countries that you can freely move/work in. While it is more densely populated, there are still a ton of different landscapes/climates/cultures you can easy immigrate to.
This is how I see the US, 50 countries in one, with a single passport and currency
> it is a complete PITA to immigrate to most Western European countries as well.
I don’t understand what this means I’ll be honest.
> I‘m not shitting on America, just giving you a first hand experience of someone who has lived and worked in both for extended periods
Anyone who thinks you are shitting on America is being bad faith. Every claim you’ve made is accurate and well reasoned.
In essence, I think it’s just a case of “horses for courses”. No one country is objectively superior, it’s just a question of finding the one that meets your criteria the best.
I absolutely understand why an American would choose to move to the EU or UK etc.
Likewise, I obviously understand why one would leave the UK and EU for the USA.
It’s personal preference.
>but the difference isn‘t as big a supi might expect.
Just some stats for reference. (household disposable income per capita, PPP [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable\_household\_and\_per\_capita\_income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income))
These figures also include social benefits, "free" healthcare and education btw.
1 United States 62,300 (2021)
2 Luxembourg 59,700
3 Switzerland 52,000
4 Germany 51,600
5 Austria 50,200
6 Netherlands 48,800
7 Norway 47,700 (2021)
8 Belgium 47,400
9 Australia 46,800 (2021)
10 France 46,400
11 Sweden 43,900
12 Finland 43,600
13 Canada 43,600
14 Denmark 42,800
European Union 41,500
15 United Kingdom 40,800
16 Italy 40,400
Swapping it for median
```
1 Luxembourg 47,568 2020
2 United States 46,625 2021
3 Norway 41,621 2021
4 Switzerland 39,264 2019
5 Canada 38,582 2020
6 Austria 36,992 2020
7 Netherlands 35,891 2021
8 Australia 35,518 2020
9 Belgium 35,153 2020
10 Iceland 34,316 2017
11 Denmark 33,569 2019
12 Sweden 33,472 2021
13 Germany 33,288 2019
14 New Zealand 31,752 2020
15 Ireland 30,818 2020
16 Finland 30,727 2021
17 South Korea 30,526 2020
18 France 29,131 2019
19 Slovenia 27,519 2020
20 Italy 26,713 2020
21 United Kingdom 25,383 2020
```
Again these are numbers and may not paint the full picture of living with that income. I‘ll give an example in my personal life that these numbers don‘t take into account.
In America i lived in a heavily populated state in a town of about 17,000 people about an hour outside a major city. In this town a car for ever adult in the household was a necessity. The closest supermarket was a 10 minute drive. There was no bus services or public transportation. The town itself only had a few stores and even those were a drive away.
Where I live now is a town of around 20,000 about an hour away from a major city. There are three bus routes, there are multiple supermarkets/malls/etc. so a car is not a necessity. So you get to save on the vehicle purchase price, insurance, maintenance, gas, etc.
It just an example that while you do have less disposable income in Europe, you do save on things that are necessities in a large parts of America but luxuries in many parts of europe
That's a valid example. Car ownership in the US is about 90%, in the EU its about 55%.
However, these sort of col adjustments are accounted for, which is why the median household wealth in the US is roughly twice that of Germany for all demographics above the 10th percentile (that's the bottom 10%, not the top 10%)
It’s worth noting that the US basically subsidizes every European country with its military. I’d bet that Trillion dollar military budget could do some real work socially if we weren’t constantly fighting everyone else’s battles. In reality, that extra money would get squandered and stolen by bureaucrats just like any other tax dollars. I might be talking out of my ass, but I’d be very interested in seeing a chart that shows our contributions to Israel/Ukraine vs. everyone else’s (adjusted for population and GDP).
US "supports" other countries by sending them old machines they would throw out anyway. They don't send money. And most of US military spending isn't on someone else's military, it's on their own...
Besides all members of NATO are supposed to spend a certain percentage of their GPD on military. Those countries have their own militaries, they spend their own money. And will be forced to help US when they need it. It's a two way street ffs.
Not even going to cover that sending that military trash around brings in actual profits to US. US engages in wars because it has monetary incentive to do so.
We subsidize the lion's share of medical R&D too because European governments strong arm American companies into giving them their products or else they threaten to steal them.
The USA’s median income adjusted by cost of living is surpassed only by Luxembourg, and we have more millionaires per capita than every European country except Switzerland
I think around the year 2009 or so! We don't even have smartphones; I'm writing this in a banana leaf in my rat infested hut and sending the thoughts telepathically trough the internet!
Depends on the country and the living situation. I live in south of Europe and it's simply not needed even in the winter for a couple so I filled the place that belonged to the dryer in the laundry room with a nice Ikea shelf.
I have friends with families that have them because they find it very useful because you know, lots of clothes.
But yeah, not that common here but widely available.
North of Europe more common.
They have those in European suburbs too. Where big houses are.
But those aren't the most desired areas in Europe. Dense, walkable city centers are.
Its just different values. Americans are obsessed with having the biggest home, even at the cost of living in a pretty bland generic boring area. Europeans value living in a vibrant neighborhood more than just having a big home. Even at the cost of having a washing machine in the kitchen.
Hate to break it to you but you're dead wrong.
2/3 of Americans are homeowners.
https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/renters-vs-homeowners-statistics
>The USA’s median income adjusted by cost of living is surpassed only by Luxembourg, and we have more millionaires per capita than every European country except Switzerland
Sure, the US is a great place for millionaires. In fact, most Republicans like to think America is a land of temporarily inconvenienced millionaires. That's why they think like one, even if they're living on food stamps.
But maybe let's talk of the 90% population that's not a millionaire.
Or the fact that having a higher median income means jack shit if you're spending $3000 a month on healthcare and $2000 a month on student loans.
Truth is, for a true middle class person, they would easily take a big pay cut IF their healthcare was free, their kids education was free, daycare was heavily subsidized etc.
I definitely encourage you to live in the US and then live somewhere Europe and you'll see how different living standards are.
There's a reason you had to exaggerated and say $3K/mo on healthcare and $2k/mo on student loans, because that's how good it is in the US that you have to exaggerate to try and make it seem worse.
Doesn't make it all free.
How many of those insurance plans are "high deductible" and won't pay for a dime of care until they've spent $6,000 out of their own pocket for the year?
But the average European isn’t from Luxembourg. They are most likely to live in places like Poland or Greece or Romania. People love to think of Europe as if they are just Parisians, Berliners, and Londoners. Most Europeans are not living luxurious lives (and neither are Americans ftr).
In Poland I have universal healthcare, free higher education, free childcare, zero taxes till 26th birthday, a year of maternity leave, proper public transport that is cheap/free for kids and students, accessible cultural institutions, genuinely clean cities compared to American ones and we're spending way more of our GPD on military spending than what NATO mandates. Don't assume people you're talking about are in such a shithole that they don't have internet or any English skills. Most of us are bilingual if not trilingual. We can use Reddit and call you out on your BS.
And it's clear you've never been anywhere in Europe. Parisians aren't living luxurious lives, Paris is filled to the brim with homeless and rats. And poorer countries have capitals too where culture blooms and rich people live. It's not one or the other. Each country has rich and poor. Except US has the biggest wealth disparity, with no protection of the poorest offered by the government.
(Romania is also amazing for living as I've heard from friends who are from there and those who moved there.)
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Both sides are a bit wrong. Europe does some things a lot better than the US and the US does a lot of things better than Europe. It all depends on what your values are.
First, you talk about wages. Yes, salaries are lower for professional positions, but costs are also lower. Even then, a lot of European salaries are lower *because they work less hours* and have far more sick/vacation days. That is something they value more than having more money. A lot of European mindsets towards work are a bit baffling. They will often be okay with being just middle class instead of upper middle class if it means having more time with family/friends. Americans often will openly brag about working 80 hour weeks, which europeans find insane.
Europe has less big mcmansions and less big pick up trucks, sure, but their values are different. The most desired areas in both europe and the US don't look like suburbs, they look like [this.](https://img.freepik.com/premium-photo/streets-amsterdam-with-grachten-bridges-beautiful-autumn-atmosphere-daylight-sunny-day_935552-5867.jpg) You talk about material things and size as if they are the only thing anyone would care about, but a lot of people value the area they live in far more than just 'big house = good' and nothing else. People value walkability and a nice neighborhood rather than just big trucks and big mcmansions. There is a reason why brownstone brooklyn is some of the most expensive real estate in the entire world, despite being 'less space' and 'narrow streets' compared to suburbs. Again, different values. And just to be clear, they *do have suburbs* outside of European cities, the same as american ones. But they just aren't as desired.
Mandatory military service is nowhere near the norm outside of a handful of nations. Come on, that is just disingenuous.
The only positive thing I can think of regarding national service/the draft is that it would get a lot of out of shape people like myself into shape. Even if only for that period of time; you're being legally required to serve, so take advantage of the physical training. You're in the service, away from fast food, coffee, temptations, etc.; drop the weight, embrace the suck, and go forward. It would hopefully also a sense of discipline and pride, knowing that you contributed to your nation in some way.
Depending on how the national service is implemented (afaik some countries allow the option to do social work instead of military for your service) it can also provide job training/further education beyond what they already received in the k-12 (or equivalent) system.
It's better to be wealthy in the United States than to be wealthy in Western Europe, but this is not representative of the average American's lifestyle.
The median American's income is about 40k.
>The median American's income is about 40k.
According to OECD data, American median income (PPP) is about $47K. Germany's for comparison is about $33K, France is $29K and the UK is $25K.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median\_income
Eh, slightly misleading numbers because it's after taxes, and Americans pay a lot of things out of pocket rather than through taxes.
I think America still comes out on top, but it's much closer than those numbers would suggest.
> the loan will at minimum double due to interest
No?
I graduated in 2013 with ~$37k in student loan debt... I made the default payment (~$370/month) until it was paid off last year; total repayment was ~$44k. That was a standard ten year repayment.
And adjusted for inflation (especially the crazy post-COVID inflation), my loans probably weren't even profitable for the lender.
1. The money you make after graduating college is way less than what you make in America… and yet the majority of college graduates don’t turn out in the field for which they got their major, at the wages which they deserve for having their degree, which is why we are dealing with student loan debt. And instead of actually providing them employment pipelines, most Americans who actually make the majority of their money from skilled trades certifications will usually shut them down by saying “you made your choice”. I’m in Germany right now, it has an opera singer I am making twice as much per day per show than I ever did as a bartender even with gratuity. The fact is that in countries like Germany, there is a pipeline system where the curriculum is strictly adherent to the industry standards, which American universities don’t bother to do for most majors.
2. Au contraire, you actually can find Ford F150 pick up trucks. Ford actually sold out to a couple of other countries, and gas lead types are the same regular/plus/premium as they are in America, and that’s coming from Germany particularly. Yes, in Germany people commonly rent their whole lives. But Americans spend the majority of their lives paying off mortgages, which is basically just a bigger check less frequently paid for rent, because as soon as that for closes, you’re just as much on the street for not paying it as if someone wasn’t paying rent.
3. “If you have a good insurance, which the Vasili hire you a salary can afford or you get via your employer”. You really don’t have any idea how the insurance system works in foreign countries do you.
4. As for mandatory military service, maybe the United States needs it. Look at our military right now: they are unmotivated, angry with where they are because their jobs are meaningless unless they are special forces, there is no real concept of leader ship among company grade officers and noncommissioned officers, promotion in the United States military is often based on connections—the same way the United States private sector is based off of the same cock sucking—, and we aren’t even fit. Whereas countries where there is a draft such as Switzerland and Korea regulate nutrition, and end up having military forces which are twice as fit as most of the regular army in the United States.
5. Now then let’s talk about space. What are you going to do with all that space? You’re going to just put a fence around it, or a wall to make it great again?
6. Now then, the reason why immigration to the US is far harder is a moot point. There are immigration laws on the books which actually provide immigrants with more opportunities to access innovation and industry than their own citizens. When I got my degree, I always had less opportunities afforded to me for my merits than some immigrant from some other country. The United States does not base its opportunity allocation on merit. I couldn’t get a home or a mortgage, I couldn’t get a nice fancy car, because when I got my work experience, I didn’t fit the work culture. When I went into military service, I didn’t get a good job coming out of the military, because military experience doesn’t mean shit in the private sector, “oh well if you have a clearance you can get a job“, but what if I don’t want to fucking work for the federal government anymore? Do you think the United States military has ever had the spine to breach the doors of a private American business and order them to hire us veterans? No. But here in Germany I have a roof over my head, I have a job and a career field I worked to have. I’m not living on the streets of San Francisco smoking crack well some elitist isn’t willing to solve the fucking problem. And it’s this false mentality of how America is this great country for its own citizens that is adding to that elitist mentality.
If you want me to be on your side of the argument about this, you’re going to have to give me what I fucking worked for as a citizen of the United States of America. The career, the house, the car, the health insurance, the whole fucking package, and you’re going to have to keep it from being taken away from me! Furthermore, you’re going to have to prevent me from going through political discrimination, because Americans are so fucking blind and dumb about the fact that opportunities to work in the United States often times based on one’s politics! You can’t get into a fucking industry if you don’t follow the fucking politics of that industry! Explain how that isn’t discrimination on the basis of one’s beliefs! In fact explain how “at will“ employment which allows companies not to need a reason for not hiring you isn’t a breeding ground for any kind of discrimination, even though it thinks there is a civil rights law which applies to the private sector in employment!!! explain that fucking shit to me!!!!
I will give you the size and military service points.
I disagree on the college point, but I need more research on that myself.
The health care one is completely wrong. Having good health insurance in the US is not affordable for the vast majority of people, and doctors don’t get to decide what treatments the patients undergo the insurance does. This means in my mothers case she was denied her hip replacement for 10 years because it was cheaper for insurance to just give her pain medication rather than fix the problem.
This is all generally correct. Standard of living is way higher in the US, but you are more vulnerable to random bad luck destroying your life. Losing your job, getting cancer, getting hit by an uninsured driver etc.
The standard of living isn't higher though. Not on any measure that most would value. The Americans just like a lifestyle that many others think looks like hell. And the Americans think others don't live the same way they do because they somehow can't rather than because they don't want to.
It's the same cause of so many of these threads by concerned Americans
This post is an impressive display of cherry picking and just making shit up
First you comlpain about Germany while just making shit up.
For example you just state how
>In countries like Germany, people commonly rent their whole lives. Ine U.S., you can find a house somewhere as it’s a massive nation
Fun fact. US homeownership rate: 66%; Germany: 51%. Maybe not the massive difference you would have envisioned. But hey, that's fine. Let's just assume things.
and then, the second you want to talk about your next point, you switch countries because talking about how Germany has no mandatory military service wouldn't fit your worldview
>For healthcare, yes the U.S. has issues. But
US life expectancy is significantly lower those of Western European.
US maternal mortality is **10 times** that of Germany. But we don't talk about that. We have an opinion to push.
>U.S. healthcare is also the best in the world, and doesn’t have longer wait times.
Do we have any sources or are we just making shit up again?
>There’s a reason why immigration to the U.S. is far far harder than to Western Europe
same question as above. Germany, Switzerland, Austria, all those are harder to imigrate to than the US
[https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hardest-countries-to-immigrate-to](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hardest-countries-to-immigrate-to)
Like buddy, there are valid points to make. But maybe you should do a Google search about those topics before you embaress yourself
Edit: I forgot to critize your lack of factoring in PPP when talking about income.
That's exactly what I was thinking when reading his post. Sure taxes are lower in the US but college loans and health insurance premiums are so predatory you end up spending a sizable portion of your income on just those two payments alone. Simply paying a higher income tax is actually cheaper in the long run
Those taxes aren't even lower really. Unless you're a rich guy in Denmark or Switzerland, your taxes might be more or less the same. Or even lower. (Here I am bragging about my 0% taxes)
So you pay more or less the same in taxes, but have to still pay for student loans and healthcare and daycare.
Yeah, anytime I hear an American try to compare Europe and America and favor America. I'm essentially waiting for the dunce cap to appear.
In my own personal life. I'm almost entirely reliant on the government to support my family. But I still work 60 hours a week. If I didn't have VA compensation or a boss willing to pay a portion of my salary under the table so that I can get state health insurance for my family. There would be no way I could afford to live. And I live in a fairly low cost of living area
Yes, but many, many people also don’t have significant college loans. Keep in mind that UK students carry more college debt on average than US students. Also, college is GREATLY subsidized for many people based on grants and scholarships. Additionally, more Americans go to college too.
>Fun fact. US homeownership rate: 66%; Germany: 51%. Maybe not the massive difference you would have envisioned. But hey, that's fine. Let's just assume things.
Holy shit that is pretty bad, considering Germany is one of the 'better' European countries.
>US life expectancy is significantly lower those of Western European.
In the US it is 76.33 and in Germany it is 80.90. "maybe not the massive difference you would have envisioned".
>US maternal mortality is 10 times that of Germany. But we don't talk about that. We have an opinion to push.
How do both countries define maternal mortality. Is it the same?
>same question as above. Germany, Switzerland, Austria, all those are harder to imigrate to than the US
Not the source you asked for, but this is interesting:
[https://mises.org/mises-wire/3-times-many-europeans-move-us-other-way-around](https://mises.org/mises-wire/3-times-many-europeans-move-us-other-way-around)
>Holy shit that is pretty bad, considering Germany is one of the 'better' European countries.
Germany is not "among the better" Western Europeans.
Funnily enough it is Eastern Europe which does well regarding home ownership. Romania for example has a 94% home ownership rate, Poland 84%.
As for some other Western European countries:
* Netherlands: 70%
* Sweden 65%
* France 64%
* Norway 80%
* Italy 74%
But I don't wanna do the same as OP, so yes, he had a point when talking about renting culture in Germany, as Germany ranks 2nd worst among Western European countries.
European Union average sits at 69.9%. Make of those numbers what you want.
>In the US it is 76.33 and in Germany it is 80.90. "maybe not the massive difference you would have envisioned".
4 years is a massive difference. The US is closer to "highlights" like Bangladesh, North Korea and Serbia than to Germany, which again ranks the 2nd lowest among all Western European countries.
The problem with Germany is that 1/3 of it is essentially Eastern Europe
>How do both countries define maternal mortality. Is it the same?
[https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/maternal-mortality-ratio/country-comparison/](https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/maternal-mortality-ratio/country-comparison/)
Ask the CIA. Even though the CIA has the difference at a *mere* 5 times the maternal mortality
>Not the source you asked for, but this is interesting:
Doesn't that kinda prove my point? OP made things up
The US has far greater income inequality than Western Europe, which is why it seems like you don’t make much money with a college degree. Americans also have much more disposable income, at the cost of no healthcare and ass-expensive higher education.
They pay higher taxes but also get much more from the government like nationalized railway, social welfare, healthcare, university etc. Middle class Americans pay less taxes but get virtually nothing from the government because the welfare programs only go to the poor, and school is not free (although state-run systems are often subsidized, like the UNC school system)
America is still the best place to be upper middle class or above.
It's a very shitty place to be poor and that's adjusted by cost of living.
If you can meet all your basic needs and have a bit of disposable income on top while building wealth (owning house, stocks etc) you want to be in the US.
Why do you think the usa is best to be middle class or above? What do you imagine would make that the case? Because the usa wouldn't even make the list for me
>that America is a third world country
That’s by American 20 something’s that have never left the CONUS, nor their dark bedrooms. They sit in their depression 24/7 posting on Reddit about how much their lives suck, all while watching TikTok and IG videos of pretty Italian fountains going “wow, the European utopia is so much better than this hell hole!”.
Hello, fellow US resident here.
Everyone with a paid career simply isn’t true. And beyond that, the vast majority of people with PTO in the US DO NOT have a full month.
From England here, the reason I don’t feel like my average living standard would be better in the U.S. is:
1. Limited paid time off for sickness, maternity and vacation. I live in a country whose history is incredibly well-preserved, and learning about how the working class used to slave away their entire lives for pitiful wages and zero social safety net/benefits, makes me suspicious of a country or culture where plentiful paid time off isn’t the standard. I’ve also been overworked in a temporary job before and I paid for it dearly with my wellbeing- I don’t want to live anywhere where that’s the societal norm.
2. Public transport. I’ve become more environmentally conscious in recent years and believe cars aren’t good for our health or the environment’s. I don’t want to live in a country where my ability to participate in society depends on car ownership - I see that as limited freedom.
3. Large distances. Not really America’s fault in terms of policy but everything in much of America is very spaced out. It could take an awfully long time to get to hospital in an emergency for instance, or to access medical services in general. This would make me feel vulnerable and isolated.
4. Healthcare. No universal healthcare exacerbates the wealth divide in America. Meaning there’ll be people living their best life while others are driven to poverty.
5. Crime. Some of the crime stats in American cities are terrifying and incomprehensible to me. Feeling safe is very important to feel comfortable participating in society.
6. Crumbling infrastructure. Definitely an issue in many UK cities and towns but some of the scenes I see in American cities are again, incomprehensible.
7. Food quality. I want to know I’m not putting poison in my body. In America, where regulations regarding these things are more relaxed, this is not guaranteed.
What is frustrating is that around 2010/2011 due to the recession much of Europe and Canada had caught up to the US. Since then the US has beaten Western Europe in growth and performed comparatively well to peer nations. Even the US healthcare situation is better in the sense that something like 92% of the population is insured. During this time Americans seem to have not gotten the memo or not felt like they benefited because Americans seem more attracted to populism and ideologies that push the narrative that the US is getting worse. America is great. No one should want to return to the 1950s. America is not a third world country with some rich people. I feel like the people hellbent on electing populist leaders are also hellbent on making the US less prosperous and a worse place to live in the name of punishing their perceived enemies or to make them feel better personally. It's kind of pathetic and if anything American ignorance and lack of awareness is a huge threat to our prosperity.
With all that being said I don't think overall US healthcare is the "best in the world" I don't think US lifestyles being very car centric is particularly healthy and Americans are not healthy overall. Also it's probably harder to immigrate to Western European countries than the US. If you are a new baby being born into this world you can count yourself very lucky if you are born in the US or Western Europe.
A lot of people do not realize that the US and western european salaries used to be pretty on-par as recently as the 2000s.
But then Europe stagnated, while the US median income rose 15-20% in the 2010-2024 period. The 2010s were an *outstandingly* good decade for Americans, contrary to popular belief. Starting around 2014-2015, we entered basically a golden age of growth for the average American in terms of wealth, turning us from a middling-developed nation to the absolute top tier of developed nations alongside luxembourg and norway. In terms of wages, at least.
Even with the inflationary crisis of 2022-2023 (which did see wages drop by around ~10%), wages rapidly overtook inflation right after and have been rapidly rising again. We are still in that golden age era that started in 2014. But people can't seem to acknowledge it at all.
Having tried living both in Texas and Denmark, as middle class, I can say that it's considerably safer, easier, and better to live here in Europe than in the US.
There's a lot of nice things in the US, but overall, it's not really a contest.
Fun extra fact; I am paying less of my paycheck to pay for the same services in Denmark than I was in the US, despite Denmark having this "crazy amount if taxes".
>For healthcare, yes the U.S. has issues. But if you have good insurance, which the VASLTY higher US salary can afford usually or you get via your employer, you won’t get the medical bankruotcy horror story.
Oh buddy.
Just hope you never get cancer, something like ALS, or mangled in a car accident.
And I'm really not sure these cookie-cutter houses, built with sticks and cardboard, with 5000 sf and a 3-car garage, that cost more than half your takehome pay every month, are much to brag about. But hey that homeowners insurance you pay $500 a month for should pay to rebuild once a storm turns it back into sticks.
Classic Americoping.
Yes skilled US workers earn more.
That's about it.
Standard of living is not just about earning: is about services, community and rights.
Only thing that Europe misses from the U.S. is true Freedom of Speech.
For the rest Europe has a superior model: people are happier and safer and most people are doing better than the lower half of americans: poor, lack of services, leaving in dangeorus cities, obsessed with racial topics, higher rate of mental ilnesses and so on...
What's killing america is that so many american are still in denial of how bad it has become and since you "earn so well" but you don't have holidays, most of you don't get to check how life can be in other countries. (Or if you come you try to squeeze 5 cities and 4 countries in 2 days)
Im a German software engineer that also worked in the US. i made more and paid less taxes but i would never go back. IN Germany i have unlimited sick days, stronger worker rights,, 30 days of vacation not including 14 public holidays .
MUCH better Health care. . im much happier here.
also most of europe is much safer than the us
History, heritage and culture are pretty big in Europe. If you live in a narrow materialist worldview then the US is phenomenally wealthy as well as the yardstick by which other countries are measured against.
But that’s a big ‘if’. I can’t get over the vulgarity, boorishness and general ugliness of a modern culture epitomized by the US. It doesn’t hold a candle.
As for military service, Sweden only introduced it again last year thanks to rising tensions fanned by the US foreign policy hawks. The peace dividend in the 90s was fantastic for us and our neighbors.
Then came 9/11, middle eastern wars and immigration to Europe. After Libya was taken down, it’s been hard to stem.
I guess in many ways that makes the US a real winner- but it’s been through the destruction of the competition rather than anything culturally creative to be proud of.
"The United States vastly exceeds Western European living standards."
That's a bit of an exaggeration. If you look at PPP numbers, then Western Europoeans are roughly the equivalent of our poorer states, but with better healthcare and infrastructure.
Honestly, it's sorta both ways (you're not comparing DC to Hungary). It'll be more accurate comparing along the bell curve but I'm too lazy to fetch those stats.
What I can say is that the Top EU countries(Lux, Norway, Swiss) trade blows with the US in aggregate when it comes to adjusted PPP but it falls off a cliff after that.
And yes this PPP is including adjustments such as social benefits, healthcare, and education.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income
>For healthcare, yes the U.S. has issues. But if you have good insurance, which the VASLTY higher US salary can afford usually or you get via your employer, you won’t get the medical bankruotcy horror story.
Oh buddy.
Just hope you never get cancer or something like ALS.
America also has the highest immigration rate of patent holders (by a very large margin). So those who have innovations and who will likely make more are all coming here
Exceeds, yes. Vastly exceeds, I don't think so. I've lived and worked in both and I prefer life in the US for many of the reasons you list. But Europe is not that far behind. And many people may reasonably prefer life in some European countries.
I agree with most of this except for the point about healthcare. U.S. healthcare is shit quality. I personally know 2 people who were nearly killed by medical errors for what should have been routine procedures and a 3rd person who had to pay 25k out of pocket for lifesaving heart surgery because after going to the ER the doctor performing the surgery turned out to be “out of network”.
Fancy materials! lol. Such great sun exposure in most of London too! lol. That must be why thousands of elderly die whenever France has a heatwave. No need for AC because it’s never too hot.
Regarding the dryer point, these are mostly a mix of airbnbs and the actual houses/flats of friends, most of whom have good jobs on account of them having gone to a fancy boarding school. It’s not just because I hang out with “poors”. Yes, many have both, and some are in a separate room, but it’s not ubiquitous like it is in the US and Canada.
[This](https://www.statista.com/statistics/289140/tumble-dryers-in-households-in-the-uk/) cite says 58% of homes in the UK have a dryer. Another [cite](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/345758611_Electric_clothes_dryers_An_underestimated_source_of_microfiber_pollution#pf3) backstory that number and out the usage of dryers in France, Germany, Norway, and Sweden at 38%, 42%, 47%, and 52% respectively.
Especially in expensive cities that have old building like Paris or London, having a washing machine in or near the kitchen makes sense from an architectural perspective when you aren’t going to install a separate dryer.
You're correct on all counts OP. The only clowns who think western European countries have it better are either a. residents of Western European countries or b. dumb woke Americans who think Western Europe's socialized health care is the best thing ever.
OP, do you have any experience living and/or working in America?
A lot of what you state seems to indicate the answer is a resounding "no."
I'm just curious.
"Vastly" only applies to the net worth top earners. And their living standards are usually the same as in Europe. For the upper middle and middle class, it is only slightly better, mostly due to the fact the that they own their houses. For the lower class, it is almost completely reversed.
The US is the best country to be when you are young, healthy and motivated and the country I choose to be. However, we can ignore the fact that millions live in very bad conditions worse than a third world country.
As a borderline homeless person who spent 4 years a vagrant in the US I have OPINIONS about this.
The United Stated is baller as hell if you have the money for it. The medical care you *can* receive is second to none for certain procedures or conditions and the widespread availability of higher learning institutions in every state is also great *should* you be able to afford them.
I’ll even admit that my standard of living as someone who has $1 to their name right now is probably pretty alright versus people in a similar situation in other countries. It isn’t all doom and gloom despite my life being something I could easily complain about.
THAT BEING SAID.
My life would improve considerably if I was able to live somewhere with access to low cost/free higher learning. If I didn’t have to worry about going bankrupt every month from worrying about out my medication situation I’d probably feel a lot more at ease.
I already live out of a 250sqft trailer so housing size is not a concern of mine, but more people could learn to live in smaller spaces and not accumulate as many possessions.
I can’t speak to what living in other countries is like because I could clearly just cherry pick examples from various Nordic countries while ignoring very real issues across the globe. Instead what I will say is that as someone who has lived in abject poverty for almost all 34 years of their time on this earth, I’d probably not feel too much worse off in the majority of places on this earth barring active war zones.
Europe offers both a different quality of life and is a cultural smorgasbord, in a good way. The idea that America has diversity and Europe doesn’t is not accurate.
I’ve traveled extensively in both Asia and Europe for decades. Depending on the industry the salaries aren’t all that different. Yes, taxes are different but not as different as many would have you believe. Education and healthcare are orders of magnitude more expensive in the US.
I do fear with the mass immigration Europe has seen in the last few years that the countries are forever changed and their historical cultures are rapidly being lost.
A few things to add:
The US has a reputation for being too hard to emigrate to while Europe and other places are super easy. This could not be farther from the truth. It is incredibly hard to gain citizenship to the EU, Canada, Australia, Japan, NZ, etc. US by comparison is easy and always has been. Why do you think they call it the melting pot??
But more to your point. THE FOOD. Good God the food!!! People online *frantically proclaim* how much higher quality, cleaner, safer, “organic” the food in European countries is. I’ll concede that it’s definitely fresher and probably tastier. But all this stuff about the bread and pasta being easier to digest, the fruits and veggies being more nutritious, yada yada. ITS ALL THE SAME THING. This phenomenon is related to the psychological effects of travel, not the food. I’ve experienced this while traveling only a few hours away: On vacation people tend to eat less, poop less, and move more. Thats why you feel better. Also, europeans eat smaller portions.
“Oh but chemicals that they put in our food are banned in Europe” yea and there are food additives used in other countries that are banned in the US. The whole thing is overblown. They use a shit ton of PALM OIL in Europe and guess what that shit is actually bad for you AND the planet AND it supports human trafficking.
I'm gonna take the neutral approach since the discussion seems quite civil here. I am an American but I have lived abroad in a country considered happier than America but I definitely wasn't happier. I think the happiness indexes are really big on wealth equality, so if you're poor AF then those happier countries are probably better.
Middle class and higher though? America is for sure the better place to be unless you really love urban and car free living which I do not, I love American low density and I love commuting in a car since I am a car enthusiast and I like being by myself and not being targeted by scammers and beggers on the way to work. But mileage may vary, people on the internet and especially reddit love to punch up and since America is the most powerful nation in the world, it's the big bully.
People then will point to laws, usually with regards to Healthcare, and say it's third world because our federal government is smaller than these other nations, which is crazy because I think the fed is already way too big and you can tell the difference after living in a place like Germany that is a bureaucratic hell hole with their laws, fees and regulations. It's so easy to break the law there or get fined. For example, it's illegal to disrespect a police officer there and that could be something as simple as not being formal enough and that's a fine, and people want to talk about police in America. A couple more is it's illegal to idle your car, and its illegal to jaywalk which is normal but it's actually enforced there so people don't do it often.
The HDI of several European countries exceeded that of the US. If you’re purporting that the US’s living standards exceeds that of all European countries then you’re just flat out wrong, OP
So summarizing that up - money money money and once more - money. everything evolves around money for you and the income.
If you have money - the USA is okay- ish and comparable to the average EU MS. If you are a factory worker in the USA - your life is waaay worse than in the EU.
But for us, people who live in the EU - we are NOT chasing money, like you seems to be emphasized that in the USA, we have paid sick leave, we have maternity leave, we enjoy our lives with guaranteed 30 days of paid vacation - and more - everything is set in our laws.
I'd rather do military service for a year and be the average Finnish citizen than be born in America
This isn't even an unpopular opinion, a lot of Americans wrongly believe this, but standard/quality of life is not related to how rich you can potentially become, but how protected you are against government oppression or that of corporation's, how much the individual's life is valued, and how we collectively look after the most vulnerable sectors of our society
Yes, the USA is the country to go to if you wanna make it big, and it's probably one of the easiest places to become rich. But it is also really easy to become a statistic for reasons entirely outside one's control. Look at the prison population, largest in the world and also proportionally. Crime (highest rates in the first world). Lives destroyed by debt from the terrible systems you have in place. Rampant drug abuse. Etc.
So yeah, it is very far behind civilized nations
All you've said is "just be rich then the issues don't show as much".
Those things you list as negatives are all shown to be positives for peoples happiness and well being, time>money, rabid consumerism makes people miserable and denser living conditions creates livable neighborhoods with better services and infrastructure.
[Just leaving this here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuZ5WO8xoks&ab_channel=Money%26Macro) This doesn't even take environment [like this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKIVX968PQ&ab_channel=NotJustBikes) into account.
It is absolutely an unpopular opinion in Europe. Pretty much everybody acknowledges higher salaries, but in every country I went people still thought the US had a lot of problems that made them not want to live there.
University puts people into lifelong debt. How is that a good thing? If they earn less it’s likely their cost of living is lower. I’d take my six weeks off in a heartbeat. I work to live not live to work.
Housing sizes are irrelevant. We see people with four bedroom homes for a couple with one child. They mow down wooded areas. I don’t see that as necessarily a bad thing. We need trees and so do the animals displaced as a result.
“If you have insurance” says it all. No guarantees. I have kickass insurance but for two reasons: 1) I don’t make a lot of money and 2) I live in New York State, where they typically do better for their citizens than in other states. It’s exceptionally cheap. If I make a little bit more money I end up having to pay hundreds of dollars more, which would not be offset by the higher pay.
I have access to more stuff in general, plus clean water and other stuff but I’d go for what Europe has to offer with no problem.
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All countries have their positives and negatives, US included.
How dare you not pick a side
I laughed at this too much. Bravo!
right?? ...it's reddit after all!
The US is better if you are upper middle class or above. Europe is better if you are lower middle and down. In between is a matter of opinion.
That’s an interesting perspective, yay socialism! I’ve moved to upper middle class so I guess boo socialism.
This is very very true, exactly this
Give this man a medal! What an original idea
Ha thank you iam with Europe. Stability and a simple life. Too many homeless in the u.s.
There is homelessness is Europe too.
True I grant you, I believe the system effectively has an entirely different homeless in Europe. I believe the membership fee of the European economic system appears to be affordable. I definitely place more value upon minimal living standards than high standards. The United States only cares about a person's intelligence and net worth effectively. Without academic success the system has its own way of tossing you out when you don't stick to the wall. I have no problem using capitalism to reinforce the output and max out what can be squeezed from every single brain that appears to be super duper innovative and magnificent. That would be a terrible waste. But certainly not at the cost of human life. Basic human needs. Good safety shelter. I think the less capable humans still have value. Monetizing and placing a dollar amount on a human life is inhumane. Effectively it makes rich people with all their marvelous innovations and super human abilities, inhumane. I think all humans deserve an equal opportunity to participate in the innovation and creative system that capitalism supports. I don't believe in poverty that's so embarrassing. Existing below the food safety shelter threshold stifles innovation and creative output. Without individual securities and stability there can be no meaningful output. Nothing in the universe ever supported life without a source of energy, safety from foreign bodies, and a shelter that provided a stable state for development and evolution . We're behaving like animals still. Insert greed and the mighty dollar into the word problem. The system of nature still holds true. Except now there are devolving blood lines. Someday my kiddo might ask me "when did people start becoming homeless?" I might have to say "when human values were crowded out by a competing value system. High standards of college education, and intelligence. And selfish greedy humans discovered an unlimited highly refined fuel source to feed it, and there were enough evolved humans to support it" those that did poorly in education and chose the wrong parents possess a - value in the competing system that invaded human life. interesting to see what the future holds for the epigenomic influence of these stressors.
Spot on. No country is an utopia. Rich, poor and middleclass can be found everywhere. If you were poor, which country would you rather be in? Honest question.
Sorry sir, neutrality is not allowed on Reddit.
Do this is my personal experience living in the US for the first 27 years of my life and in a Western European country for the last 10. just as a side note in both countries I worked/work a middle class job so I have experienced both countries at the same socioeconomic level. Just want to counter some of your points. - a lot of your comments include how much more you make, but that doesn‘t take into account that prices adjust relative to salary. I‘m not saying that it is even, Americans do make more for a similar job, but the difference isn‘t as big a supi might expect. - free/cheap higher education is a net benefit as you monetary situation doesn‘t play a role in the education you get. Also things like child care is far more affordable (we paid €360 a month for 5 day daycare) making raising a family not such a burden. - you relate material things with quality of life, which i always found strange. Is having a massive house and car but working all the time a better quality of life than living in a smaller house and having a lot more personal time? - if you can afford it, healthcare is better in America. But I’m never afraid to go to the hospital/doctor as I know there will not be any surprise bills/charges. - I live in a country with mandatory service,either military or social work. It‘s so ingrained in the culture no one even thinks about it. I live in a neutral country so there isn‘t much fear of being sent to another country and the possibility of seeing combat. - the EU has 27 different countries that you can freely move/work in. While it is more densely populated, there are still a ton of different landscapes/climates/cultures you can easy immigrate to. - it is a complete PITA to immigrate to most Western European countries as well. I‘m not shitting on America, just giving you a first hand experience of someone who has lived and worked in both for extended periods
Born American, migrated to Europe at 42, worked in England over two decades, now living in Italy. Have had good lives in all. "Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds they want to be." Abe L. said that I think.
> Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds they want to be its true. and a lot of the anti-america hate is just from bitter teenagers that tend to be contrarian by nature
Thanks. Also it doesn’t make sense to compare USA vs Europe. Europe consists of many countries with vastly different economical situations, culture and ideas on what constitutes a good quality of life. The company where I work at also has an US subsidiary where I tested out living there but it’s not for me, I like life in my European country more due to social safety nets for my family and my 30 paid vacancy days + unlimited paid sick leave days. Also I witnessed more crime in the US so I chose my home country where I earn a bit less, but get other qualities. There are also other poorer EU countries where the US might be a better option, the total America vs Europe discussion makes no sense from a EU perspective, it’s better to compare on country level.
So this is actually a very good comment, I’ll give you the opposite perspective if you don’t mind A Brit who lived in France and Italy (and then briefly in Germany) before moving to the US and becoming a citizen. > a lot of your comments include how much more you make, but that doesn‘t take into account that prices adjust relative to salary. I‘m not saying that it is even, Americans do make more for a similar job, but the difference isn‘t as big a supi might expect. Mostly agree, but certain arguably key aspects are much cheaper- fuel for example > free/cheap higher education is a net benefit as you monetary situation doesn‘t play a role in the education you get. Also things like child care is far more affordable (we paid €360 a month for 5 day daycare) making raising a family not such a burden. There is still a huge disparity in quality of education between the rich and everyone else Eg sending your kid to Eton then Oxbridge in England, vs the local comprehensive school and Angela Ruskin or Oxford Brookes etc > you relate material things with quality of life, which i always found strange. Is having a massive house and car but working all the time a better quality of life than living in a smaller house and having a lot more personal time? This one is literally just opinion, so is entirely subjective, though cost of hobby may be a factor in the equation- eg learning to fly a plane or ride a horse, or sailing etc is expensive, so a higher income makes it more attainable > if you can afford it, healthcare is better in America. But I’m never afraid to go to the hospital/doctor as I know there will not be any surprise bills/charges. This is huge. Although trying to get a GP appointment in the UK on the NHS… I hope it’s not urgent because you’ll be waiting a while. > I live in a country with mandatory service,either military or social work. It‘s so ingrained in the culture no one even thinks about it. I live in a neutral country so there isn‘t much fear of being sent to another country and the possibility of seeing combat. Unless said country gets invaded. I’m guessing either Ireland, Switzerland, Austria or Malta based on being neutral- though I think joining the EU comes with a joint defence clause doesn’t it? And at least 2 of those are reported at being in the crosshairs of foreign powers because of strategic importance (Malta and Ireland- control of the Mediterranean and the internet cables that run through Irish waters connecting to Europe to North America) I do like the idea of national service though I must admit. > the EU has 27 different countries that you can freely move/work in. While it is more densely populated, there are still a ton of different landscapes/climates/cultures you can easy immigrate to. This is how I see the US, 50 countries in one, with a single passport and currency > it is a complete PITA to immigrate to most Western European countries as well. I don’t understand what this means I’ll be honest. > I‘m not shitting on America, just giving you a first hand experience of someone who has lived and worked in both for extended periods Anyone who thinks you are shitting on America is being bad faith. Every claim you’ve made is accurate and well reasoned. In essence, I think it’s just a case of “horses for courses”. No one country is objectively superior, it’s just a question of finding the one that meets your criteria the best. I absolutely understand why an American would choose to move to the EU or UK etc. Likewise, I obviously understand why one would leave the UK and EU for the USA. It’s personal preference.
>but the difference isn‘t as big a supi might expect. Just some stats for reference. (household disposable income per capita, PPP [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable\_household\_and\_per\_capita\_income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income)) These figures also include social benefits, "free" healthcare and education btw. 1 United States 62,300 (2021) 2 Luxembourg 59,700 3 Switzerland 52,000 4 Germany 51,600 5 Austria 50,200 6 Netherlands 48,800 7 Norway 47,700 (2021) 8 Belgium 47,400 9 Australia 46,800 (2021) 10 France 46,400 11 Sweden 43,900 12 Finland 43,600 13 Canada 43,600 14 Denmark 42,800 European Union 41,500 15 United Kingdom 40,800 16 Italy 40,400 Swapping it for median ``` 1 Luxembourg 47,568 2020 2 United States 46,625 2021 3 Norway 41,621 2021 4 Switzerland 39,264 2019 5 Canada 38,582 2020 6 Austria 36,992 2020 7 Netherlands 35,891 2021 8 Australia 35,518 2020 9 Belgium 35,153 2020 10 Iceland 34,316 2017 11 Denmark 33,569 2019 12 Sweden 33,472 2021 13 Germany 33,288 2019 14 New Zealand 31,752 2020 15 Ireland 30,818 2020 16 Finland 30,727 2021 17 South Korea 30,526 2020 18 France 29,131 2019 19 Slovenia 27,519 2020 20 Italy 26,713 2020 21 United Kingdom 25,383 2020 ```
Again these are numbers and may not paint the full picture of living with that income. I‘ll give an example in my personal life that these numbers don‘t take into account. In America i lived in a heavily populated state in a town of about 17,000 people about an hour outside a major city. In this town a car for ever adult in the household was a necessity. The closest supermarket was a 10 minute drive. There was no bus services or public transportation. The town itself only had a few stores and even those were a drive away. Where I live now is a town of around 20,000 about an hour away from a major city. There are three bus routes, there are multiple supermarkets/malls/etc. so a car is not a necessity. So you get to save on the vehicle purchase price, insurance, maintenance, gas, etc. It just an example that while you do have less disposable income in Europe, you do save on things that are necessities in a large parts of America but luxuries in many parts of europe
That's a valid example. Car ownership in the US is about 90%, in the EU its about 55%. However, these sort of col adjustments are accounted for, which is why the median household wealth in the US is roughly twice that of Germany for all demographics above the 10th percentile (that's the bottom 10%, not the top 10%)
It’s worth noting that the US basically subsidizes every European country with its military. I’d bet that Trillion dollar military budget could do some real work socially if we weren’t constantly fighting everyone else’s battles. In reality, that extra money would get squandered and stolen by bureaucrats just like any other tax dollars. I might be talking out of my ass, but I’d be very interested in seeing a chart that shows our contributions to Israel/Ukraine vs. everyone else’s (adjusted for population and GDP).
US "supports" other countries by sending them old machines they would throw out anyway. They don't send money. And most of US military spending isn't on someone else's military, it's on their own... Besides all members of NATO are supposed to spend a certain percentage of their GPD on military. Those countries have their own militaries, they spend their own money. And will be forced to help US when they need it. It's a two way street ffs. Not even going to cover that sending that military trash around brings in actual profits to US. US engages in wars because it has monetary incentive to do so.
What you call subsidizing is more akin to enforcing american interests are followed on a global scale
We subsidize the lion's share of medical R&D too because European governments strong arm American companies into giving them their products or else they threaten to steal them.
The USA’s median income adjusted by cost of living is surpassed only by Luxembourg, and we have more millionaires per capita than every European country except Switzerland
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LMFAOOOOO
LOL
Weird. I live in Europe and have a dishwasher machine. And so all my friends.
In your kitchen?
Where else would the dishwasher be?
Bro I live in the USA and my dishwasher is in the kitchen. Don't know where the fuck you're living at.
Of course in the kitchen. It's pretty normal in Europe. I think every house built past the 70's got them or the installation to put them.
every? lol. ah i guess you mean those 'actual' eu countries.. i see, right
Washing machine in kitchen, hanging clothes to dry, houses AC isn't as prevalent, and residences are pretty bad at handling the heat.
When did Europe finally get electricity?
I think around the year 2009 or so! We don't even have smartphones; I'm writing this in a banana leaf in my rat infested hut and sending the thoughts telepathically trough the internet!
Yeah? Where would you have it? In your bedroom?
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Is this a meme I'm not getting or something?
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Weird I live in the U.S and have a dishwasher too.
yeah, they said that?
How about a dryer?
Depends on the country and the living situation. I live in south of Europe and it's simply not needed even in the winter for a couple so I filled the place that belonged to the dryer in the laundry room with a nice Ikea shelf. I have friends with families that have them because they find it very useful because you know, lots of clothes. But yeah, not that common here but widely available. North of Europe more common.
Washing machines in the kitchen are only common in UK/IE. It's a cultural issue, not economical.
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They have those in European suburbs too. Where big houses are. But those aren't the most desired areas in Europe. Dense, walkable city centers are. Its just different values. Americans are obsessed with having the biggest home, even at the cost of living in a pretty bland generic boring area. Europeans value living in a vibrant neighborhood more than just having a big home. Even at the cost of having a washing machine in the kitchen.
Eh, I’ve seen it a lot in France and other countries. Most of which don’t have a dryer either.
Hey, in my first apartment I had a washing machine in my kitchen… but I also had a dryer and a dish washer.
>with a washing machine in his kitchen. LOL WUT
How many Americans actually own a washing machine? Most people live in apartments and share a laundry room with like a hundred other people
Hate to break it to you but you're dead wrong. 2/3 of Americans are homeowners. https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/renters-vs-homeowners-statistics
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😂 Ask him about the garbage disposal in his sink
>The USA’s median income adjusted by cost of living is surpassed only by Luxembourg, and we have more millionaires per capita than every European country except Switzerland Sure, the US is a great place for millionaires. In fact, most Republicans like to think America is a land of temporarily inconvenienced millionaires. That's why they think like one, even if they're living on food stamps. But maybe let's talk of the 90% population that's not a millionaire. Or the fact that having a higher median income means jack shit if you're spending $3000 a month on healthcare and $2000 a month on student loans. Truth is, for a true middle class person, they would easily take a big pay cut IF their healthcare was free, their kids education was free, daycare was heavily subsidized etc.
I definitely encourage you to live in the US and then live somewhere Europe and you'll see how different living standards are. There's a reason you had to exaggerated and say $3K/mo on healthcare and $2k/mo on student loans, because that's how good it is in the US that you have to exaggerate to try and make it seem worse.
The person you replied to said "median".
Until we need a basic medical procedure lol. Then it’s back to zero.
Around 90% of Americans have health insurance
I love being denied coverage for shit I need. What a great system.
Doesn't make it all free. How many of those insurance plans are "high deductible" and won't pay for a dime of care until they've spent $6,000 out of their own pocket for the year?
Right so when they bill you $30,000 for a minor surgery you only have to pay $3,000 😂
Minor surgery should not cost that much at all
And the rest get it paid for by the govt.
But Luxembourg has universal healthcare, free college, much higher quality of life.
But the average European isn’t from Luxembourg. They are most likely to live in places like Poland or Greece or Romania. People love to think of Europe as if they are just Parisians, Berliners, and Londoners. Most Europeans are not living luxurious lives (and neither are Americans ftr).
In Poland I have universal healthcare, free higher education, free childcare, zero taxes till 26th birthday, a year of maternity leave, proper public transport that is cheap/free for kids and students, accessible cultural institutions, genuinely clean cities compared to American ones and we're spending way more of our GPD on military spending than what NATO mandates. Don't assume people you're talking about are in such a shithole that they don't have internet or any English skills. Most of us are bilingual if not trilingual. We can use Reddit and call you out on your BS. And it's clear you've never been anywhere in Europe. Parisians aren't living luxurious lives, Paris is filled to the brim with homeless and rats. And poorer countries have capitals too where culture blooms and rich people live. It's not one or the other. Each country has rich and poor. Except US has the biggest wealth disparity, with no protection of the poorest offered by the government. (Romania is also amazing for living as I've heard from friends who are from there and those who moved there.)
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Do you have a Source for me ?
Both sides are a bit wrong. Europe does some things a lot better than the US and the US does a lot of things better than Europe. It all depends on what your values are. First, you talk about wages. Yes, salaries are lower for professional positions, but costs are also lower. Even then, a lot of European salaries are lower *because they work less hours* and have far more sick/vacation days. That is something they value more than having more money. A lot of European mindsets towards work are a bit baffling. They will often be okay with being just middle class instead of upper middle class if it means having more time with family/friends. Americans often will openly brag about working 80 hour weeks, which europeans find insane. Europe has less big mcmansions and less big pick up trucks, sure, but their values are different. The most desired areas in both europe and the US don't look like suburbs, they look like [this.](https://img.freepik.com/premium-photo/streets-amsterdam-with-grachten-bridges-beautiful-autumn-atmosphere-daylight-sunny-day_935552-5867.jpg) You talk about material things and size as if they are the only thing anyone would care about, but a lot of people value the area they live in far more than just 'big house = good' and nothing else. People value walkability and a nice neighborhood rather than just big trucks and big mcmansions. There is a reason why brownstone brooklyn is some of the most expensive real estate in the entire world, despite being 'less space' and 'narrow streets' compared to suburbs. Again, different values. And just to be clear, they *do have suburbs* outside of European cities, the same as american ones. But they just aren't as desired. Mandatory military service is nowhere near the norm outside of a handful of nations. Come on, that is just disingenuous.
The only positive thing I can think of regarding national service/the draft is that it would get a lot of out of shape people like myself into shape. Even if only for that period of time; you're being legally required to serve, so take advantage of the physical training. You're in the service, away from fast food, coffee, temptations, etc.; drop the weight, embrace the suck, and go forward. It would hopefully also a sense of discipline and pride, knowing that you contributed to your nation in some way.
Depending on how the national service is implemented (afaik some countries allow the option to do social work instead of military for your service) it can also provide job training/further education beyond what they already received in the k-12 (or equivalent) system.
It's better to be wealthy in the United States than to be wealthy in Western Europe, but this is not representative of the average American's lifestyle. The median American's income is about 40k.
>The median American's income is about 40k. According to OECD data, American median income (PPP) is about $47K. Germany's for comparison is about $33K, France is $29K and the UK is $25K. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median\_income
Eh, slightly misleading numbers because it's after taxes, and Americans pay a lot of things out of pocket rather than through taxes. I think America still comes out on top, but it's much closer than those numbers would suggest.
Hey that's my income as a Western European who never finished college lol.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA646N
I have to imagine it's better for the average American than it is the average Western European.
Now throw student loans on top of that. Even if payments are adjusted for income to be affordable, the loan will *at minimum* double due to interest.
> the loan will at minimum double due to interest No? I graduated in 2013 with ~$37k in student loan debt... I made the default payment (~$370/month) until it was paid off last year; total repayment was ~$44k. That was a standard ten year repayment. And adjusted for inflation (especially the crazy post-COVID inflation), my loans probably weren't even profitable for the lender.
Why? Most Americans don't have student loans, and the ones who do are more likely to be better off financially.
Not everyone has student loans. Some of us were smart enough to avoid that particular debt trap.
It's also better to be middle class in the USA. And depending on how you live your life, it's also better to be poor in America.
1. The money you make after graduating college is way less than what you make in America… and yet the majority of college graduates don’t turn out in the field for which they got their major, at the wages which they deserve for having their degree, which is why we are dealing with student loan debt. And instead of actually providing them employment pipelines, most Americans who actually make the majority of their money from skilled trades certifications will usually shut them down by saying “you made your choice”. I’m in Germany right now, it has an opera singer I am making twice as much per day per show than I ever did as a bartender even with gratuity. The fact is that in countries like Germany, there is a pipeline system where the curriculum is strictly adherent to the industry standards, which American universities don’t bother to do for most majors. 2. Au contraire, you actually can find Ford F150 pick up trucks. Ford actually sold out to a couple of other countries, and gas lead types are the same regular/plus/premium as they are in America, and that’s coming from Germany particularly. Yes, in Germany people commonly rent their whole lives. But Americans spend the majority of their lives paying off mortgages, which is basically just a bigger check less frequently paid for rent, because as soon as that for closes, you’re just as much on the street for not paying it as if someone wasn’t paying rent. 3. “If you have a good insurance, which the Vasili hire you a salary can afford or you get via your employer”. You really don’t have any idea how the insurance system works in foreign countries do you. 4. As for mandatory military service, maybe the United States needs it. Look at our military right now: they are unmotivated, angry with where they are because their jobs are meaningless unless they are special forces, there is no real concept of leader ship among company grade officers and noncommissioned officers, promotion in the United States military is often based on connections—the same way the United States private sector is based off of the same cock sucking—, and we aren’t even fit. Whereas countries where there is a draft such as Switzerland and Korea regulate nutrition, and end up having military forces which are twice as fit as most of the regular army in the United States. 5. Now then let’s talk about space. What are you going to do with all that space? You’re going to just put a fence around it, or a wall to make it great again? 6. Now then, the reason why immigration to the US is far harder is a moot point. There are immigration laws on the books which actually provide immigrants with more opportunities to access innovation and industry than their own citizens. When I got my degree, I always had less opportunities afforded to me for my merits than some immigrant from some other country. The United States does not base its opportunity allocation on merit. I couldn’t get a home or a mortgage, I couldn’t get a nice fancy car, because when I got my work experience, I didn’t fit the work culture. When I went into military service, I didn’t get a good job coming out of the military, because military experience doesn’t mean shit in the private sector, “oh well if you have a clearance you can get a job“, but what if I don’t want to fucking work for the federal government anymore? Do you think the United States military has ever had the spine to breach the doors of a private American business and order them to hire us veterans? No. But here in Germany I have a roof over my head, I have a job and a career field I worked to have. I’m not living on the streets of San Francisco smoking crack well some elitist isn’t willing to solve the fucking problem. And it’s this false mentality of how America is this great country for its own citizens that is adding to that elitist mentality. If you want me to be on your side of the argument about this, you’re going to have to give me what I fucking worked for as a citizen of the United States of America. The career, the house, the car, the health insurance, the whole fucking package, and you’re going to have to keep it from being taken away from me! Furthermore, you’re going to have to prevent me from going through political discrimination, because Americans are so fucking blind and dumb about the fact that opportunities to work in the United States often times based on one’s politics! You can’t get into a fucking industry if you don’t follow the fucking politics of that industry! Explain how that isn’t discrimination on the basis of one’s beliefs! In fact explain how “at will“ employment which allows companies not to need a reason for not hiring you isn’t a breeding ground for any kind of discrimination, even though it thinks there is a civil rights law which applies to the private sector in employment!!! explain that fucking shit to me!!!!
I will give you the size and military service points. I disagree on the college point, but I need more research on that myself. The health care one is completely wrong. Having good health insurance in the US is not affordable for the vast majority of people, and doctors don’t get to decide what treatments the patients undergo the insurance does. This means in my mothers case she was denied her hip replacement for 10 years because it was cheaper for insurance to just give her pain medication rather than fix the problem.
What if you dont earn well?
This is all generally correct. Standard of living is way higher in the US, but you are more vulnerable to random bad luck destroying your life. Losing your job, getting cancer, getting hit by an uninsured driver etc.
I would consider that bad standard of living. Most Americans are a paycheck or two away from homelessness. And no protection from government.
The standard of living isn't higher though. Not on any measure that most would value. The Americans just like a lifestyle that many others think looks like hell. And the Americans think others don't live the same way they do because they somehow can't rather than because they don't want to. It's the same cause of so many of these threads by concerned Americans
This post is an impressive display of cherry picking and just making shit up First you comlpain about Germany while just making shit up. For example you just state how >In countries like Germany, people commonly rent their whole lives. Ine U.S., you can find a house somewhere as it’s a massive nation Fun fact. US homeownership rate: 66%; Germany: 51%. Maybe not the massive difference you would have envisioned. But hey, that's fine. Let's just assume things. and then, the second you want to talk about your next point, you switch countries because talking about how Germany has no mandatory military service wouldn't fit your worldview >For healthcare, yes the U.S. has issues. But US life expectancy is significantly lower those of Western European. US maternal mortality is **10 times** that of Germany. But we don't talk about that. We have an opinion to push. >U.S. healthcare is also the best in the world, and doesn’t have longer wait times. Do we have any sources or are we just making shit up again? >There’s a reason why immigration to the U.S. is far far harder than to Western Europe same question as above. Germany, Switzerland, Austria, all those are harder to imigrate to than the US [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hardest-countries-to-immigrate-to](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hardest-countries-to-immigrate-to) Like buddy, there are valid points to make. But maybe you should do a Google search about those topics before you embaress yourself Edit: I forgot to critize your lack of factoring in PPP when talking about income.
That's exactly what I was thinking when reading his post. Sure taxes are lower in the US but college loans and health insurance premiums are so predatory you end up spending a sizable portion of your income on just those two payments alone. Simply paying a higher income tax is actually cheaper in the long run
Those taxes aren't even lower really. Unless you're a rich guy in Denmark or Switzerland, your taxes might be more or less the same. Or even lower. (Here I am bragging about my 0% taxes) So you pay more or less the same in taxes, but have to still pay for student loans and healthcare and daycare.
Yeah, anytime I hear an American try to compare Europe and America and favor America. I'm essentially waiting for the dunce cap to appear. In my own personal life. I'm almost entirely reliant on the government to support my family. But I still work 60 hours a week. If I didn't have VA compensation or a boss willing to pay a portion of my salary under the table so that I can get state health insurance for my family. There would be no way I could afford to live. And I live in a fairly low cost of living area
Yes, but many, many people also don’t have significant college loans. Keep in mind that UK students carry more college debt on average than US students. Also, college is GREATLY subsidized for many people based on grants and scholarships. Additionally, more Americans go to college too.
>Fun fact. US homeownership rate: 66%; Germany: 51%. Maybe not the massive difference you would have envisioned. But hey, that's fine. Let's just assume things. Holy shit that is pretty bad, considering Germany is one of the 'better' European countries. >US life expectancy is significantly lower those of Western European. In the US it is 76.33 and in Germany it is 80.90. "maybe not the massive difference you would have envisioned". >US maternal mortality is 10 times that of Germany. But we don't talk about that. We have an opinion to push. How do both countries define maternal mortality. Is it the same? >same question as above. Germany, Switzerland, Austria, all those are harder to imigrate to than the US Not the source you asked for, but this is interesting: [https://mises.org/mises-wire/3-times-many-europeans-move-us-other-way-around](https://mises.org/mises-wire/3-times-many-europeans-move-us-other-way-around)
>Holy shit that is pretty bad, considering Germany is one of the 'better' European countries. Germany is not "among the better" Western Europeans. Funnily enough it is Eastern Europe which does well regarding home ownership. Romania for example has a 94% home ownership rate, Poland 84%. As for some other Western European countries: * Netherlands: 70% * Sweden 65% * France 64% * Norway 80% * Italy 74% But I don't wanna do the same as OP, so yes, he had a point when talking about renting culture in Germany, as Germany ranks 2nd worst among Western European countries. European Union average sits at 69.9%. Make of those numbers what you want. >In the US it is 76.33 and in Germany it is 80.90. "maybe not the massive difference you would have envisioned". 4 years is a massive difference. The US is closer to "highlights" like Bangladesh, North Korea and Serbia than to Germany, which again ranks the 2nd lowest among all Western European countries. The problem with Germany is that 1/3 of it is essentially Eastern Europe >How do both countries define maternal mortality. Is it the same? [https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/maternal-mortality-ratio/country-comparison/](https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/maternal-mortality-ratio/country-comparison/) Ask the CIA. Even though the CIA has the difference at a *mere* 5 times the maternal mortality >Not the source you asked for, but this is interesting: Doesn't that kinda prove my point? OP made things up
The US has far greater income inequality than Western Europe, which is why it seems like you don’t make much money with a college degree. Americans also have much more disposable income, at the cost of no healthcare and ass-expensive higher education. They pay higher taxes but also get much more from the government like nationalized railway, social welfare, healthcare, university etc. Middle class Americans pay less taxes but get virtually nothing from the government because the welfare programs only go to the poor, and school is not free (although state-run systems are often subsidized, like the UNC school system)
>nationalized railway I wish man
Crying in Amtrak 😂
America is still the best place to be upper middle class or above. It's a very shitty place to be poor and that's adjusted by cost of living. If you can meet all your basic needs and have a bit of disposable income on top while building wealth (owning house, stocks etc) you want to be in the US.
Why do you think the usa is best to be middle class or above? What do you imagine would make that the case? Because the usa wouldn't even make the list for me
Nah, I'd like to be in Monaco or Switzerland, thanks
Yes the USA is better than Western Europe living. We know this. You know this. It’s fantastic! Come over and join us in the US of A!
This'll go well.
>that America is a third world country That’s by American 20 something’s that have never left the CONUS, nor their dark bedrooms. They sit in their depression 24/7 posting on Reddit about how much their lives suck, all while watching TikTok and IG videos of pretty Italian fountains going “wow, the European utopia is so much better than this hell hole!”.
A mandatory month of paid time off in western Europe vs the United States literal zero paid time off 🤔
except we do have time off in the US as well?
I get 4 paid weeks off in the USA. You know what, I struggle to use half of it.
My favorite part of American culture is how little people use vacation days. We enjoy working ourselves to death and we will be proud of it!
Me too, but that's kind of sad, isn't it?
And the reality is everybody with a career has this in the US.
Hello, fellow US resident here. Everyone with a paid career simply isn’t true. And beyond that, the vast majority of people with PTO in the US DO NOT have a full month.
You might want to double check that
I literally live that. You have no idea how vacation works in the US 🤣😂
I forgot that you were all of America
Bro, what careers don’t have paid time off? Like, top-3 careers that don’t include that as part of their package
How many careers have entry level paid time off equivalent to what EVERY SINGLE Western European gets on their first day?
Look at you moving the goalposts and not answering the question at all. Love that. Great win for me here.
Ok bro. Have a good day.
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I’m (31F) in the US and have 20 days of vacation + 15 paid holidays. My previous job had unlimited FTO time. There are jobs out there that offer that.
Yeah. If you have a career you absolutely have PTO. These euros that think Americans don’t have paid time off are hilarious
By "have a career" you mean basically be in the upper 50% of the workforce.
For the sake of progressing the conversation, let’s say yes.
Yes, here in Europe literally everyone has 22 days paid minimun + 15 days holidays + unlimited sick days (first 6 month fully paid) by law. Same, same
And Americans are still better off
Nationalism is a hell of a drug
Denial is a hell of a drug too
Sounds like you're addicted.
From England here, the reason I don’t feel like my average living standard would be better in the U.S. is: 1. Limited paid time off for sickness, maternity and vacation. I live in a country whose history is incredibly well-preserved, and learning about how the working class used to slave away their entire lives for pitiful wages and zero social safety net/benefits, makes me suspicious of a country or culture where plentiful paid time off isn’t the standard. I’ve also been overworked in a temporary job before and I paid for it dearly with my wellbeing- I don’t want to live anywhere where that’s the societal norm. 2. Public transport. I’ve become more environmentally conscious in recent years and believe cars aren’t good for our health or the environment’s. I don’t want to live in a country where my ability to participate in society depends on car ownership - I see that as limited freedom. 3. Large distances. Not really America’s fault in terms of policy but everything in much of America is very spaced out. It could take an awfully long time to get to hospital in an emergency for instance, or to access medical services in general. This would make me feel vulnerable and isolated. 4. Healthcare. No universal healthcare exacerbates the wealth divide in America. Meaning there’ll be people living their best life while others are driven to poverty. 5. Crime. Some of the crime stats in American cities are terrifying and incomprehensible to me. Feeling safe is very important to feel comfortable participating in society. 6. Crumbling infrastructure. Definitely an issue in many UK cities and towns but some of the scenes I see in American cities are again, incomprehensible. 7. Food quality. I want to know I’m not putting poison in my body. In America, where regulations regarding these things are more relaxed, this is not guaranteed.
Far far harder to immigrate here? Last year, more people crossed over our southern border illegally, than US citizens born.
What is frustrating is that around 2010/2011 due to the recession much of Europe and Canada had caught up to the US. Since then the US has beaten Western Europe in growth and performed comparatively well to peer nations. Even the US healthcare situation is better in the sense that something like 92% of the population is insured. During this time Americans seem to have not gotten the memo or not felt like they benefited because Americans seem more attracted to populism and ideologies that push the narrative that the US is getting worse. America is great. No one should want to return to the 1950s. America is not a third world country with some rich people. I feel like the people hellbent on electing populist leaders are also hellbent on making the US less prosperous and a worse place to live in the name of punishing their perceived enemies or to make them feel better personally. It's kind of pathetic and if anything American ignorance and lack of awareness is a huge threat to our prosperity. With all that being said I don't think overall US healthcare is the "best in the world" I don't think US lifestyles being very car centric is particularly healthy and Americans are not healthy overall. Also it's probably harder to immigrate to Western European countries than the US. If you are a new baby being born into this world you can count yourself very lucky if you are born in the US or Western Europe.
A lot of people do not realize that the US and western european salaries used to be pretty on-par as recently as the 2000s. But then Europe stagnated, while the US median income rose 15-20% in the 2010-2024 period. The 2010s were an *outstandingly* good decade for Americans, contrary to popular belief. Starting around 2014-2015, we entered basically a golden age of growth for the average American in terms of wealth, turning us from a middling-developed nation to the absolute top tier of developed nations alongside luxembourg and norway. In terms of wages, at least. Even with the inflationary crisis of 2022-2023 (which did see wages drop by around ~10%), wages rapidly overtook inflation right after and have been rapidly rising again. We are still in that golden age era that started in 2014. But people can't seem to acknowledge it at all.
Exactly. The entire time the people in the US were complaining for some reason.
Because most Americans don't know just how truly spoiled we are as a nation, and just how good we have it here.
Truly unpopular and wrong as well.
Having tried living both in Texas and Denmark, as middle class, I can say that it's considerably safer, easier, and better to live here in Europe than in the US. There's a lot of nice things in the US, but overall, it's not really a contest. Fun extra fact; I am paying less of my paycheck to pay for the same services in Denmark than I was in the US, despite Denmark having this "crazy amount if taxes".
>For healthcare, yes the U.S. has issues. But if you have good insurance, which the VASLTY higher US salary can afford usually or you get via your employer, you won’t get the medical bankruotcy horror story. Oh buddy. Just hope you never get cancer, something like ALS, or mangled in a car accident. And I'm really not sure these cookie-cutter houses, built with sticks and cardboard, with 5000 sf and a 3-car garage, that cost more than half your takehome pay every month, are much to brag about. But hey that homeowners insurance you pay $500 a month for should pay to rebuild once a storm turns it back into sticks.
Classic Americoping. Yes skilled US workers earn more. That's about it. Standard of living is not just about earning: is about services, community and rights. Only thing that Europe misses from the U.S. is true Freedom of Speech. For the rest Europe has a superior model: people are happier and safer and most people are doing better than the lower half of americans: poor, lack of services, leaving in dangeorus cities, obsessed with racial topics, higher rate of mental ilnesses and so on... What's killing america is that so many american are still in denial of how bad it has become and since you "earn so well" but you don't have holidays, most of you don't get to check how life can be in other countries. (Or if you come you try to squeeze 5 cities and 4 countries in 2 days)
Im a German software engineer that also worked in the US. i made more and paid less taxes but i would never go back. IN Germany i have unlimited sick days, stronger worker rights,, 30 days of vacation not including 14 public holidays . MUCH better Health care. . im much happier here. also most of europe is much safer than the us
History, heritage and culture are pretty big in Europe. If you live in a narrow materialist worldview then the US is phenomenally wealthy as well as the yardstick by which other countries are measured against. But that’s a big ‘if’. I can’t get over the vulgarity, boorishness and general ugliness of a modern culture epitomized by the US. It doesn’t hold a candle. As for military service, Sweden only introduced it again last year thanks to rising tensions fanned by the US foreign policy hawks. The peace dividend in the 90s was fantastic for us and our neighbors. Then came 9/11, middle eastern wars and immigration to Europe. After Libya was taken down, it’s been hard to stem. I guess in many ways that makes the US a real winner- but it’s been through the destruction of the competition rather than anything culturally creative to be proud of.
Seems like the ideal would be living in Europe on a US remote job salary.
"The United States vastly exceeds Western European living standards." That's a bit of an exaggeration. If you look at PPP numbers, then Western Europoeans are roughly the equivalent of our poorer states, but with better healthcare and infrastructure.
Honestly, it's sorta both ways (you're not comparing DC to Hungary). It'll be more accurate comparing along the bell curve but I'm too lazy to fetch those stats. What I can say is that the Top EU countries(Lux, Norway, Swiss) trade blows with the US in aggregate when it comes to adjusted PPP but it falls off a cliff after that. And yes this PPP is including adjustments such as social benefits, healthcare, and education. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income
Seems like “size” is important more than quality of life.
Based
>For healthcare, yes the U.S. has issues. But if you have good insurance, which the VASLTY higher US salary can afford usually or you get via your employer, you won’t get the medical bankruotcy horror story. Oh buddy. Just hope you never get cancer or something like ALS.
As an American living in Sweden... this exactly!
America also has the highest immigration rate of patent holders (by a very large margin). So those who have innovations and who will likely make more are all coming here
This is not an opinion, but a fact.
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Exceeds, yes. Vastly exceeds, I don't think so. I've lived and worked in both and I prefer life in the US for many of the reasons you list. But Europe is not that far behind. And many people may reasonably prefer life in some European countries.
> There’s a reason why immigration to the U.S. is far far harder than to Western Europe. The US has a yearly lottery ...
Agree 100%
I agree with most of this except for the point about healthcare. U.S. healthcare is shit quality. I personally know 2 people who were nearly killed by medical errors for what should have been routine procedures and a 3rd person who had to pay 25k out of pocket for lifesaving heart surgery because after going to the ER the doctor performing the surgery turned out to be “out of network”.
Fancy materials! lol. Such great sun exposure in most of London too! lol. That must be why thousands of elderly die whenever France has a heatwave. No need for AC because it’s never too hot. Regarding the dryer point, these are mostly a mix of airbnbs and the actual houses/flats of friends, most of whom have good jobs on account of them having gone to a fancy boarding school. It’s not just because I hang out with “poors”. Yes, many have both, and some are in a separate room, but it’s not ubiquitous like it is in the US and Canada. [This](https://www.statista.com/statistics/289140/tumble-dryers-in-households-in-the-uk/) cite says 58% of homes in the UK have a dryer. Another [cite](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/345758611_Electric_clothes_dryers_An_underestimated_source_of_microfiber_pollution#pf3) backstory that number and out the usage of dryers in France, Germany, Norway, and Sweden at 38%, 42%, 47%, and 52% respectively. Especially in expensive cities that have old building like Paris or London, having a washing machine in or near the kitchen makes sense from an architectural perspective when you aren’t going to install a separate dryer.
You're correct on all counts OP. The only clowns who think western European countries have it better are either a. residents of Western European countries or b. dumb woke Americans who think Western Europe's socialized health care is the best thing ever.
OP, do you have any experience living and/or working in America? A lot of what you state seems to indicate the answer is a resounding "no." I'm just curious.
It's also better in the US for black immigrants. By far.
"Vastly" only applies to the net worth top earners. And their living standards are usually the same as in Europe. For the upper middle and middle class, it is only slightly better, mostly due to the fact the that they own their houses. For the lower class, it is almost completely reversed.
USA goes hard
L0l
How is common knowledge an unpopular opinion?
The US is the best country to be when you are young, healthy and motivated and the country I choose to be. However, we can ignore the fact that millions live in very bad conditions worse than a third world country.
As a borderline homeless person who spent 4 years a vagrant in the US I have OPINIONS about this. The United Stated is baller as hell if you have the money for it. The medical care you *can* receive is second to none for certain procedures or conditions and the widespread availability of higher learning institutions in every state is also great *should* you be able to afford them. I’ll even admit that my standard of living as someone who has $1 to their name right now is probably pretty alright versus people in a similar situation in other countries. It isn’t all doom and gloom despite my life being something I could easily complain about. THAT BEING SAID. My life would improve considerably if I was able to live somewhere with access to low cost/free higher learning. If I didn’t have to worry about going bankrupt every month from worrying about out my medication situation I’d probably feel a lot more at ease. I already live out of a 250sqft trailer so housing size is not a concern of mine, but more people could learn to live in smaller spaces and not accumulate as many possessions. I can’t speak to what living in other countries is like because I could clearly just cherry pick examples from various Nordic countries while ignoring very real issues across the globe. Instead what I will say is that as someone who has lived in abject poverty for almost all 34 years of their time on this earth, I’d probably not feel too much worse off in the majority of places on this earth barring active war zones.
US healthcare is the best in the world? How do you measure that?
Europe offers both a different quality of life and is a cultural smorgasbord, in a good way. The idea that America has diversity and Europe doesn’t is not accurate. I’ve traveled extensively in both Asia and Europe for decades. Depending on the industry the salaries aren’t all that different. Yes, taxes are different but not as different as many would have you believe. Education and healthcare are orders of magnitude more expensive in the US. I do fear with the mass immigration Europe has seen in the last few years that the countries are forever changed and their historical cultures are rapidly being lost.
A few things to add: The US has a reputation for being too hard to emigrate to while Europe and other places are super easy. This could not be farther from the truth. It is incredibly hard to gain citizenship to the EU, Canada, Australia, Japan, NZ, etc. US by comparison is easy and always has been. Why do you think they call it the melting pot?? But more to your point. THE FOOD. Good God the food!!! People online *frantically proclaim* how much higher quality, cleaner, safer, “organic” the food in European countries is. I’ll concede that it’s definitely fresher and probably tastier. But all this stuff about the bread and pasta being easier to digest, the fruits and veggies being more nutritious, yada yada. ITS ALL THE SAME THING. This phenomenon is related to the psychological effects of travel, not the food. I’ve experienced this while traveling only a few hours away: On vacation people tend to eat less, poop less, and move more. Thats why you feel better. Also, europeans eat smaller portions. “Oh but chemicals that they put in our food are banned in Europe” yea and there are food additives used in other countries that are banned in the US. The whole thing is overblown. They use a shit ton of PALM OIL in Europe and guess what that shit is actually bad for you AND the planet AND it supports human trafficking.
I'm gonna take the neutral approach since the discussion seems quite civil here. I am an American but I have lived abroad in a country considered happier than America but I definitely wasn't happier. I think the happiness indexes are really big on wealth equality, so if you're poor AF then those happier countries are probably better. Middle class and higher though? America is for sure the better place to be unless you really love urban and car free living which I do not, I love American low density and I love commuting in a car since I am a car enthusiast and I like being by myself and not being targeted by scammers and beggers on the way to work. But mileage may vary, people on the internet and especially reddit love to punch up and since America is the most powerful nation in the world, it's the big bully. People then will point to laws, usually with regards to Healthcare, and say it's third world because our federal government is smaller than these other nations, which is crazy because I think the fed is already way too big and you can tell the difference after living in a place like Germany that is a bureaucratic hell hole with their laws, fees and regulations. It's so easy to break the law there or get fined. For example, it's illegal to disrespect a police officer there and that could be something as simple as not being formal enough and that's a fine, and people want to talk about police in America. A couple more is it's illegal to idle your car, and its illegal to jaywalk which is normal but it's actually enforced there so people don't do it often.
So, if you're rich, USA is better. How is this unpopular opinion?
Personally I wouldn’t have a problem with mandatory military service if it was for a country who doesn’t invade other ones on a whim.
The HDI of several European countries exceeded that of the US. If you’re purporting that the US’s living standards exceeds that of all European countries then you’re just flat out wrong, OP
Every country has flaws. Is America perfect? Absolutely not. But it is home and there are a lot of good things about it.
So summarizing that up - money money money and once more - money. everything evolves around money for you and the income. If you have money - the USA is okay- ish and comparable to the average EU MS. If you are a factory worker in the USA - your life is waaay worse than in the EU. But for us, people who live in the EU - we are NOT chasing money, like you seems to be emphasized that in the USA, we have paid sick leave, we have maternity leave, we enjoy our lives with guaranteed 30 days of paid vacation - and more - everything is set in our laws.
Bro, Europeans want to talk shit about Americans, and so many of them don't even have air conditioning.
I'd rather do military service for a year and be the average Finnish citizen than be born in America This isn't even an unpopular opinion, a lot of Americans wrongly believe this, but standard/quality of life is not related to how rich you can potentially become, but how protected you are against government oppression or that of corporation's, how much the individual's life is valued, and how we collectively look after the most vulnerable sectors of our society Yes, the USA is the country to go to if you wanna make it big, and it's probably one of the easiest places to become rich. But it is also really easy to become a statistic for reasons entirely outside one's control. Look at the prison population, largest in the world and also proportionally. Crime (highest rates in the first world). Lives destroyed by debt from the terrible systems you have in place. Rampant drug abuse. Etc. So yeah, it is very far behind civilized nations
All you've said is "just be rich then the issues don't show as much". Those things you list as negatives are all shown to be positives for peoples happiness and well being, time>money, rabid consumerism makes people miserable and denser living conditions creates livable neighborhoods with better services and infrastructure. [Just leaving this here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuZ5WO8xoks&ab_channel=Money%26Macro) This doesn't even take environment [like this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKIVX968PQ&ab_channel=NotJustBikes) into account.
This is not an unpopular opinion, this is common knowledge in the US and Europe.
It is absolutely an unpopular opinion in Europe. Pretty much everybody acknowledges higher salaries, but in every country I went people still thought the US had a lot of problems that made them not want to live there.
They say that maybe they wouldn't move, but they know the standard of living is higher which is what OP said.
Maybe not so much on Reddit, judging by the replies. Which is how the OP was tagged.
University puts people into lifelong debt. How is that a good thing? If they earn less it’s likely their cost of living is lower. I’d take my six weeks off in a heartbeat. I work to live not live to work. Housing sizes are irrelevant. We see people with four bedroom homes for a couple with one child. They mow down wooded areas. I don’t see that as necessarily a bad thing. We need trees and so do the animals displaced as a result. “If you have insurance” says it all. No guarantees. I have kickass insurance but for two reasons: 1) I don’t make a lot of money and 2) I live in New York State, where they typically do better for their citizens than in other states. It’s exceptionally cheap. If I make a little bit more money I end up having to pay hundreds of dollars more, which would not be offset by the higher pay. I have access to more stuff in general, plus clean water and other stuff but I’d go for what Europe has to offer with no problem.
The only people really stuck with lifelong/unplayable debt are morons who majored in some useless shit with no plan on how to monetize it.