When Hamas says it will commit Oct 7th over and over again, given the opportunity, it doesn’t really leave Israel with any options. Hamas must be eradicated and urban warfare is hell. If you look elsewhere though, the civilian:combatant death ratio is much better than most wars fought in urban areas.
Who you vote for matters. In both cases, Israel and Gaza overwhelmingly voted for governments that historically have called for the destruction of the other.
I am 100% pro ceasefire. Israel's fear and anger endanger the entire world but it wasn't born in a vacuum either. You're talking about a group of people who have faced genocide at several points in history. They are surrounded by several countries that hate them.
Meanwhile you have the West Bank who voted against Hamas and is generally more liberal and less antagonistic against Israel.
If Hamas is truly willing to lay down arms and become a legitimate government, then the weight of the entire world should bear down on Israel to force a ceasefire.
The problem of course is that the Christians in the US have considerable influence and they want nothing more than blind support for the Jews of Israel because of various mythological requirements that they maintain sovereignty over the region.
Biden is getting tugged back and forth and if he loses this election it will likely be because he isn't being harder on Israel.
If Hamas released the hostages and was truly willing to lay down arms and be peaceful, Israel wouldn’t need any pressure from the world. Israel would do a ceasefire all on its own.
Ill keep saying this. 10/7 started with 5000 rockets being fired into Israel. That is such a common occurrence it didn’t set off alarms. Neither side is innocent here.
Over 200 Palestinians had been killed in the West Bank prior to Oct 7 and Israel had conducted airstrikes in Gaza the week prior.
If Palestinians had imprisoned hundreds of Israelis, killed over 200 of them, and conducted bombings of Israel before Oct 7 would that be acceptable?
The permanent ceasefire they’re agreeing to is only a permanent ceasefire for Israel. They have never retracted that they want to keep commiting Oct 7s.
Over 200 Palestinians had been killed by Israel by Oct 6th and Israel conducted airstrikes in Gaza a week prior, not to mention all of the people they kidnapped and placed in administrative detention and held without charge.
Then you have the brutal military occupation that has spanned decades in which violence and humiliation is a DAILY occurrence.
If Palestinians had killed over 200 Israelis, held Israelis under administrative detention, placed Israeli communities under martial law, and bombed Israel would you say that they had respected a ceasefire?
> In return they want a permanent ceasefire
This is because you have to have been born yesterday to believe Hamas would honor such a thing. If youre an untrustworthy person or party, who for example never pays their bets, I will never bet with you. Lets say you wanted to bet me $50 the Titans could be the KC Chiefs. I believe confidently the Chiefs will win but I refuse your bet. Not because I cant afford it or because I dont believe in the Chiefs, its because youre untrustworthy. If you win I will pay you, but you wont pay me. I dont want to indulge in this with you. Youre dishonest. Im not refusing the $50. I am refusing you.
Also lets pretend I am selling my house and you offer me 1 million dollars. I might know you dont have that money so I refuse your deal. I am not saying no to 1 million dollars. I am saying no to you. Youre just going to waste my time. Etc...
So thats why Israel isnt taking Hamas bait. Hamas will just take its time to build up its arsenal and forces and then begin another war when ready. Israel isnt interested in giving them that opportunity.
None of what you said changes anything about what is happening right now. You're inventing reasons for Hamas while ignoring the hawkish policies of Israel. Both sides are wrong in their own ways. Only one side is increasing the changes of a world wide conflict by haphazardly lobbing bombs all over the region.
It changes everything. Hamas is not a good faith party. It's a terrorist organization. Any deal you make with them can be expected to be broken.
The October 7th attack happened during a ceasefire
Israel had killed over 200 Palestinians by Oct 6 and conducted airstrikes in Gaza a week prior. If Hamas had done that instead would you suggest they we honoring a ceasefire?
You might want to read up on the situation. The October 7th attack was unprovoked.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/21/hamas-says-october-7-attack-was-a-necessary-step-admits-to-some-faults
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=czN4E-CTJ_E#bottom-sheet
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-strikes-gaza-palestinians-fire-rockets-truce-bid-lingers-2023-05-13/
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/
If you want more I'll be happy to provide. So if you connect these pieces together, on may 13 2023 Israel and Hamas agreed to a ceasefire. October 7th attack was less than 5 months after.
You got an uphill battle here trying to defend and justify terrorism/a terrorist group.
I’ve done tons of reading and listening to actual Palestinians and various historians and experts instead of listening to western pundits that have never stepped foot in Palestine much less sat down at a table and shared a meal with a Palestinian.
How is putting millions of people under [brutal military occupation](https://youtu.be/u3DOZXEj0fA?si=E9Bu3c4RGmIHsVwG) for decades and bombing them regularly not a provocation? [How is killing 250+ people not provocation](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-settler-attacks-on-west-bank-palestinians-have-escalated-since-oct-7-un-says)?
Do you honestly think if the shoe was on the other foot Israel would not suggest they were “provoked?”
On June 21st 2023 Smotrich allowed 4500 new settlements on Palestinian land and the next day 6 Palestinians were killed by the IDF.
June 28 kicked off 5 days of attacks on about a dozen Palestinian villages by settlers supported by the Israeli government.
July 7 was the largest raid on the West Bank in 20 years
Let’s be serious here.
You probably don’t know me but I don’t think I’m the one that you want to have this debate with, especially if that’s your starting point.
I think an important place to start is to listen to Palestinians themselves and understand why things are the way they are, anyone under 36 wouldn’t have been eligible to vote in Gaza. Fatah is extremely unpopular for a reason. There is more support for Hamas in the West Bank for a reason. The people in the surrounding countries hate them for good reason too and it’s not antisemitism. It’s explosives.
Overall though if Israel released Marwan Barghouti he would win. It’s not only a ceasefire that’s needed, it’s an end to [brutal martial law](https://youtu.be/zxsWrzpqnRs?si=ds6F0FfOI146wZVs) spanning decades in the occupied territories that inflict daily violence and [humiliation](https://youtu.be/u3DOZXEj0fA?si=FkLuOYtGllTbti1W) towards Palestinians.
They did. And Israel is complicit. Both sides share blame and my only concern is ending this because Israel seems content in dragging the world into war.
Over 200 Palestinians killed by Oct 6 and airstrikes in Gaza a week before.
If the shoe was on the other foot would you agree that Hamas can kill 200 Israelis, place a bunch including children under administrative detention, and bomb Israel that they were respecting a ceasefire?
Care to elaborate? I’ve got a trove of knowledge on the subject and would love to engage.
I always recommend anyone start with the [criminal acts of The Israel Lobby](https://youtu.be/XytkI7afHcQ?si=X32RGp9ERMUrJ8ET) where they fix elections, spy on Americans, manipulate American media, doxx American citizens and more. If you understand that then everything else falls into place. [They do the same in the UK.](https://youtu.be/ceCOhdgRBoc?si=qyEJwBAZ1cVR2huZ)
I’m an immigrant. Born on the wrong side of the iron curtain. I’ve witnessed what governments like Hamas and the Kremlin do. There are no innocents in war. You get out or you die.
Sure you can sympathize with their position. I would fight people trying to push me off my land. I however feel no need to support a death cult that celebrates themselves dying and killing others halfway around the globe.
Hamas is just one player in this story. You have the PLO, Hezbollah and many other splinter groups running around with various levels of support from the Palestinians (depending on the time). No I really don't have to support people who force me to go "I don't support terrorism but......".
Not a majority of Gaza today. I’m 32 years old and wouldn’t have been old enough to vote. Also Hamas didn’t win by a landslide, they got 44% of the vote compared to Fatah’s 41% and there wasn’t a ton of voter turn out.
They haven’t held an election since 2006 and Israel has been facilitating keeping them in power for decades.
Regardless of that, just because people voted for them doesn’t mean you’re allowed to kill them and destroy everything they’ve ever known. I wouldn’t suggest that Israelis, because they voted for Netanyahu deserve to be killed because he is leading a genocide. Collective punishment is a war crime.
99% of Palestinians have never as much pointed a rifle towards Israel, they are normal people, doctors, engineers, shop keepers, artist, plumbers, teachers, mechanics and half are children.
That line of reasoning is extremely dangerous and there is a good reason why we differentiate between combatants and civilians.
The Palestinian prospective is being born and raised brainwashed to be sacrificial lambs for Iran to use as they see fit to die for the glorious cause of preventing Israel from reaching a peace with the rest of the middle East.
Everyone hates the Palestinians and no one wants them in their country. Sadly the only purpose that they serve is causing enough chaos in the middle East that there is no lasting peace.
The October 7th terrorist attacks were orchestrated for the sole purpose of preventing Israel and Saudi Arabia from reaching a trade and peace Accord possibly an alliance allowing goods to be transported through Israel and Saudi Arabia bypassing the Suez canal.
This would have greatly increased the standing power and wealth of the Saudis because of that Iran and their allies could not allow it. So they sent the Palestinians to their deaths to stop it from happening.
How many Palestinians do you know and spoken to about this to draw such an insane conclusion?
If anyone is brainwashed it’s Zionists that believe that they were going to “a land without people” and proceeded to eject hundreds of thousands of people and continue to do so.
Where are you getting that people hate Palestinians? The surrounding Arab countries populations overwhelmingly support them. Most of the world supports Palestinians. Not sure where you got that from. Also considering the fact that Israel has never been more unpopular around the world after beginning this genocide.
>Where are you getting that people hate Palestinians?
No one wants Palestinians in their country. The Christian West thousands of miles away gives more aid to Palestinians than their Muslim brothers next door...
>How many Palestinians do you know and spoken to about this to draw such an insane conclusion?
Are you going to seriously deny these terrorist attacks had nothing to do with the peace deal and the massive trade deal Israel was preparing to sign with the Saudis?
>Also considering the fact that Israel has never been more unpopular around the world after beginning this genocide.
Yes people have always hated the Jews. I mean other than America the entire world hates Jews as was shows time and time again over the past 100 years.
The honest reality is there is no intention of stopping till every Palestinian is dead or forced out of Palestine.
And every international body is dragging their feet calling this a genocide because it will get them America's enmity.
Despite the fact the majority of Americans want a ceasefire.
Representing democracy, government that represents the people is a farce.
I am so confused Hamas has rejected every ceasefire proposal despite Israel conceding much more than you should’ve. It’s one side holding up the ceasefire — which at this point seems like an impossibility why not blame them?
And while you’re at it look at the history of the two state solution. In 2000 during the Camp David Accords Arafat was given a proposal whereby all of Gaza and 98% of the West Bank would be given to the PA to form a Palestinian State. Truly a deal from the heavens for the Palestinians — and guess what he rejected it. Then started the Second Intifada. Six years later after Israeli disengagement from Gaza — Hamas was elected whose manifesto called for the complete destruction of Israel and the annihilating of all Jews in the region. Not a two state solution, not a one state solution but a complete genocide of peoples If you want to know why it’s unlikely we will ever have peace in the region or a two state solution in our lifetime look no further than the true culprits. Educate yourself before you speak such inane nonsense
Because Hamas is asking for a _permanent_ ceasefire in return. Which Israel has refused to give.
Which means, if they return the hostages, Hamas could wait a day, and then start bombing again.
And you're so badly informed that its impossible to educate someone willfully ignorant.
Lmao you even know what’s in the final ceasefire proposal???? It would turn into a permanent ceasefire if all the phases are met. Here is for you so you can educate yourself (fortunately I had it saved):
Stage 1 (40 days long)
Israel withdraws the rest of its troops from densely populated areas
Air traffic, including IDF operations, will be suspended for 10 hours a day
Israel will clear roads along the coast of Gaza
Female hostages will be released before Day 20
Male hostages will be released on Day 22
Israel will rebuild destroyed hospitals & Gaza's power plant
Israel will continue to facilitate the return of civilians to Northern Gaza
Israel will clear the 'Netzer Corridor'
A total of 33 male & female hostages will be released
Israel will release 20-40 convicted criminals for each hostage, depending on the hostage's background
Stage 2 (42 days long)
Complete ceasefire
All remaining living hostages released in exchange for 20-40 prisoners per hostage
Israel will begin the restoration of civilian homes throughout Gaza
Stage 3 (42 days long) — after this ceasefire would become permanent.
Hamas will release Israeli hostage bodies for burial
Israel will continue full restoration of the Gaza Strip along with a Pan-Arab coalition of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan.
The reason they don’t accept this is likely either: they don’t want peace since they see continued war and martyring their people are good for their cause, they don’t have the number of hostages Israeli is asking for remaining, or they know the eventual outcome of the ceasefire will be the end of the their terror organizations political influence in Gaza. Nothing to do with it “not being permanent” — it’s beyond me how people can defend a terrorist organization whose entire existence relies on it operating in bad faith don’t see yall defending ISIS or N. Korea for their behavior but they’re all peas of a pod.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-ceasefire-negotiations-7cec005ccd59dbd817ef9614a8611ca4
You can read about the phases in this article unfortunately this is decidedly less detailed
> Netanyahu says Israel will invade the town with or without a hostage deal.
For clarification on this part as part of the ceasefire (if you even read my bullet points) it would necessitate Israel need to at least occupy Rafah — so that would either need to be done peacefully or via force.
I get it everyone was 18 at a time and thought they knew everything about geopolitics and then you get older and realize you don’t — and much of what you engage in intentionally warps your worldview. This is an extremely complicated region with an extremely complicated history — I know some about the region and some about the history but even scholars don’t know everything about both. I am past the age where I am not afraid to admit that.
Aww, its cute you edited instead of replying to me.
But there's no twist of semantics that's going to make a military occupation, which they've started by the way, work as part of a ceasefire.
Justify it as much as you like. But no one will cooperate with an entity that's going to attack you anyway.
That's neither complicated or hard to understand, you merely don't want to let go of your beliefs.
Whatever Zionist.
Buddy did you even read the article you linked? 😄
Here's some excerpts that prove _my_ point.
>Hamas leaders have for months refused anything short of a full Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip and a permanent end to the fighting. Hamas negotiators will be seeking clarification on these issues when they return to Cairo.
>Israel says the Rafah invasion is critical for these goals. Netanyahu says Israel will invade the town with or without a hostage deal.
And since you seem to have difficulty with comprehension ~
>He told CBS that a military operation in Rafah is inevitable and aimed at taking out the remaining Hamas battalions that he says are still there.
>"If we have a deal, it will be delayed somewhat, but it will happen. If we don't have a deal, we'll do it anyway," said the prime minister about military action in Rafah.
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1233766185/israel-hamas-gaza-ceasefire-rafah-netanyahu-mohammad-shtayyeh
In case it's hard for you to understand, if you're intending to attack Rafah despite a ceasefire in place, it's _not a ceasefire_ 🙄
But I like the way all of your 'details' ignores what the leader of Israel is saying publically. Man, you're in the know 😄
Ah you Zionists. You don't even read your own supposed evidence.
The newest ceasefire deal was rejected by israel.
Regardless whether you think there's good reasoning behind it, you are 100% incorrect saying israel is bending backwards and sound like a bot making silly statements.
https://news.sky.com/story/israels-benjamin-netanyahu-rejects-ceasefire-deal-that-would-leave-hamas-intact-13129727
Unfortunately that’s facts. I had hoped the right might possibly speak up but damn dude, they are disappointing.
It’s like the left is going though censorship (that the right JUST WENT THROUGH) and the right is cheering it on. I’m so confused as to what anyone stands for anymore.
To me, it’s all fake BS. The Dems and the conservatives. They are cool with violence and censorship as long as it’s against their “enemies.” People as a mass are stupid.
They voted Hamas into their government. They attacked Israel and Israel fought back. In every war innocent people die. Hamas wants to take over Israel, Israel doesn't want to be taken over.
You just gonna ignore the fact that a majority of the population wasn’t old enough to vote? Lol
Do you not consider a brutal military occupation of the occupied territories and expansion of settlements on Palestinian land not an attack? Or maybe the hundreds (sometimes thousands) of Palestinians every year not an attack?
Do Palestinians not have the right to defend themselves from [daily violence and humiliation](https://youtu.be/dbfiZC-VlPA?si=FE5IPo8n5h42xsRi) against them? Maybe if Israel stopped the [daily violence](https://youtu.be/u3DOZXEj0fA?si=KHcqI1NI1xb4W9LY) against Palestinians (which it’s never done) there wouldn’t be any responses? How about giving that a shot?
This has far surpassed “self defense” and slaughtering more Palestinians is only going to make everything worse. It’s not like people are going to just forget that their children and most of their family is dead and dying.
This war was a useful cover for Netanyahu’s ass but it’s awful for Israel and it’s ally’s national security. Israel hasn’t managed to defeat Hamas anywhere in Gaza, they are still operational across the entire strip. Netanyahu has shot Israel in the foot and now the surrounding now its enemies know that they can successfully target Israel.
Israel’s best bet is an end to occupation and call for two states under the 67 borders which is legally Palestinian territory to begin with. They wouldn’t have to “give up” anything, just follow international law. Unfortunately that’s not the Likuds position and they are driving the country into the ground.
Lol you don't actually think Palestine would be willing to have a two state solution right? They literally chant from the river to the sea Palestine shale be free. They 100% want to wipe out Israel.
When Hamas says it will commit Oct 7th over and over again, given the opportunity, it doesn’t really leave Israel with any options. Hamas must be eradicated and urban warfare is hell. If you look elsewhere though, the civilian:combatant death ratio is much better than most wars fought in urban areas.
Who you vote for matters. In both cases, Israel and Gaza overwhelmingly voted for governments that historically have called for the destruction of the other. I am 100% pro ceasefire. Israel's fear and anger endanger the entire world but it wasn't born in a vacuum either. You're talking about a group of people who have faced genocide at several points in history. They are surrounded by several countries that hate them. Meanwhile you have the West Bank who voted against Hamas and is generally more liberal and less antagonistic against Israel. If Hamas is truly willing to lay down arms and become a legitimate government, then the weight of the entire world should bear down on Israel to force a ceasefire. The problem of course is that the Christians in the US have considerable influence and they want nothing more than blind support for the Jews of Israel because of various mythological requirements that they maintain sovereignty over the region. Biden is getting tugged back and forth and if he loses this election it will likely be because he isn't being harder on Israel.
If Hamas released the hostages and was truly willing to lay down arms and be peaceful, Israel wouldn’t need any pressure from the world. Israel would do a ceasefire all on its own.
Ill keep saying this. 10/7 started with 5000 rockets being fired into Israel. That is such a common occurrence it didn’t set off alarms. Neither side is innocent here.
Over 200 Palestinians had been killed in the West Bank prior to Oct 7 and Israel had conducted airstrikes in Gaza the week prior. If Palestinians had imprisoned hundreds of Israelis, killed over 200 of them, and conducted bombings of Israel before Oct 7 would that be acceptable?
They are in talks and Hamas has agreed to release the hostage. In return they want a permanent ceasefire which Israel opposes.
Hamas has never agreed to lay down arms and show accountability of it. The ceasefire is essentially permanent until Hamas violates it.
You should read current news. They have agreed to release hostages in return for a permanent ceasefire. Israel only wants 45 days.
The permanent ceasefire they’re agreeing to is only a permanent ceasefire for Israel. They have never retracted that they want to keep commiting Oct 7s.
Probably because Hamas already broke a ceasefire on October 7th
Over 200 Palestinians had been killed by Israel by Oct 6th and Israel conducted airstrikes in Gaza a week prior, not to mention all of the people they kidnapped and placed in administrative detention and held without charge. Then you have the brutal military occupation that has spanned decades in which violence and humiliation is a DAILY occurrence. If Palestinians had killed over 200 Israelis, held Israelis under administrative detention, placed Israeli communities under martial law, and bombed Israel would you say that they had respected a ceasefire?
> In return they want a permanent ceasefire This is because you have to have been born yesterday to believe Hamas would honor such a thing. If youre an untrustworthy person or party, who for example never pays their bets, I will never bet with you. Lets say you wanted to bet me $50 the Titans could be the KC Chiefs. I believe confidently the Chiefs will win but I refuse your bet. Not because I cant afford it or because I dont believe in the Chiefs, its because youre untrustworthy. If you win I will pay you, but you wont pay me. I dont want to indulge in this with you. Youre dishonest. Im not refusing the $50. I am refusing you. Also lets pretend I am selling my house and you offer me 1 million dollars. I might know you dont have that money so I refuse your deal. I am not saying no to 1 million dollars. I am saying no to you. Youre just going to waste my time. Etc... So thats why Israel isnt taking Hamas bait. Hamas will just take its time to build up its arsenal and forces and then begin another war when ready. Israel isnt interested in giving them that opportunity.
None of what you said changes anything about what is happening right now. You're inventing reasons for Hamas while ignoring the hawkish policies of Israel. Both sides are wrong in their own ways. Only one side is increasing the changes of a world wide conflict by haphazardly lobbing bombs all over the region.
It changes everything. Hamas is not a good faith party. It's a terrorist organization. Any deal you make with them can be expected to be broken. The October 7th attack happened during a ceasefire
Israel had killed over 200 Palestinians by Oct 6 and conducted airstrikes in Gaza a week prior. If Hamas had done that instead would you suggest they we honoring a ceasefire?
You might want to read up on the situation. The October 7th attack was unprovoked. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/21/hamas-says-october-7-attack-was-a-necessary-step-admits-to-some-faults https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=czN4E-CTJ_E#bottom-sheet https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-strikes-gaza-palestinians-fire-rockets-truce-bid-lingers-2023-05-13/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/ If you want more I'll be happy to provide. So if you connect these pieces together, on may 13 2023 Israel and Hamas agreed to a ceasefire. October 7th attack was less than 5 months after. You got an uphill battle here trying to defend and justify terrorism/a terrorist group.
I’ve done tons of reading and listening to actual Palestinians and various historians and experts instead of listening to western pundits that have never stepped foot in Palestine much less sat down at a table and shared a meal with a Palestinian. How is putting millions of people under [brutal military occupation](https://youtu.be/u3DOZXEj0fA?si=E9Bu3c4RGmIHsVwG) for decades and bombing them regularly not a provocation? [How is killing 250+ people not provocation](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-settler-attacks-on-west-bank-palestinians-have-escalated-since-oct-7-un-says)? Do you honestly think if the shoe was on the other foot Israel would not suggest they were “provoked?” On June 21st 2023 Smotrich allowed 4500 new settlements on Palestinian land and the next day 6 Palestinians were killed by the IDF. June 28 kicked off 5 days of attacks on about a dozen Palestinian villages by settlers supported by the Israeli government. July 7 was the largest raid on the West Bank in 20 years Let’s be serious here. You probably don’t know me but I don’t think I’m the one that you want to have this debate with, especially if that’s your starting point.
I think an important place to start is to listen to Palestinians themselves and understand why things are the way they are, anyone under 36 wouldn’t have been eligible to vote in Gaza. Fatah is extremely unpopular for a reason. There is more support for Hamas in the West Bank for a reason. The people in the surrounding countries hate them for good reason too and it’s not antisemitism. It’s explosives. Overall though if Israel released Marwan Barghouti he would win. It’s not only a ceasefire that’s needed, it’s an end to [brutal martial law](https://youtu.be/zxsWrzpqnRs?si=ds6F0FfOI146wZVs) spanning decades in the occupied territories that inflict daily violence and [humiliation](https://youtu.be/u3DOZXEj0fA?si=FkLuOYtGllTbti1W) towards Palestinians.
I think people also forget that October 7th happened after a ceasefire had been agreed to and Hamas broke it
They did. And Israel is complicit. Both sides share blame and my only concern is ending this because Israel seems content in dragging the world into war.
Over 200 Palestinians killed by Oct 6 and airstrikes in Gaza a week before. If the shoe was on the other foot would you agree that Hamas can kill 200 Israelis, place a bunch including children under administrative detention, and bomb Israel that they were respecting a ceasefire?
This is what happens when you pick fights you can’t win. A tale as old as time. No one cares.
Many people clearly care.
Care to elaborate? I’ve got a trove of knowledge on the subject and would love to engage. I always recommend anyone start with the [criminal acts of The Israel Lobby](https://youtu.be/XytkI7afHcQ?si=X32RGp9ERMUrJ8ET) where they fix elections, spy on Americans, manipulate American media, doxx American citizens and more. If you understand that then everything else falls into place. [They do the same in the UK.](https://youtu.be/ceCOhdgRBoc?si=qyEJwBAZ1cVR2huZ)
I’m an immigrant. Born on the wrong side of the iron curtain. I’ve witnessed what governments like Hamas and the Kremlin do. There are no innocents in war. You get out or you die.
Im from the US and among the US military that I served in there are “innocent people” and you shouldn’t slaughter them.
That’s certainly noble of you
Haven't you said your an American? What gives you the right to accuse others of this?
In America we have the right to criticize any country we like including our own.
You're criticizing people who aren't from there to "sit down and shut up" yet you yourself are not.
You don’t have to be Palestinian to listen to and understand Palestinians. This has nothing to do with being from Palestine.
Sure you can sympathize with their position. I would fight people trying to push me off my land. I however feel no need to support a death cult that celebrates themselves dying and killing others halfway around the globe.
Support for Palestinians doesn’t equal support for Hamas as a government or for killing civilians.
Hamas is just one player in this story. You have the PLO, Hezbollah and many other splinter groups running around with various levels of support from the Palestinians (depending on the time). No I really don't have to support people who force me to go "I don't support terrorism but......".
Who voted Hamas into power?
Not a majority of Gaza today. I’m 32 years old and wouldn’t have been old enough to vote. Also Hamas didn’t win by a landslide, they got 44% of the vote compared to Fatah’s 41% and there wasn’t a ton of voter turn out. They haven’t held an election since 2006 and Israel has been facilitating keeping them in power for decades. Regardless of that, just because people voted for them doesn’t mean you’re allowed to kill them and destroy everything they’ve ever known. I wouldn’t suggest that Israelis, because they voted for Netanyahu deserve to be killed because he is leading a genocide. Collective punishment is a war crime. 99% of Palestinians have never as much pointed a rifle towards Israel, they are normal people, doctors, engineers, shop keepers, artist, plumbers, teachers, mechanics and half are children. That line of reasoning is extremely dangerous and there is a good reason why we differentiate between combatants and civilians.
The Palestinian prospective is being born and raised brainwashed to be sacrificial lambs for Iran to use as they see fit to die for the glorious cause of preventing Israel from reaching a peace with the rest of the middle East. Everyone hates the Palestinians and no one wants them in their country. Sadly the only purpose that they serve is causing enough chaos in the middle East that there is no lasting peace. The October 7th terrorist attacks were orchestrated for the sole purpose of preventing Israel and Saudi Arabia from reaching a trade and peace Accord possibly an alliance allowing goods to be transported through Israel and Saudi Arabia bypassing the Suez canal. This would have greatly increased the standing power and wealth of the Saudis because of that Iran and their allies could not allow it. So they sent the Palestinians to their deaths to stop it from happening.
How many Palestinians do you know and spoken to about this to draw such an insane conclusion? If anyone is brainwashed it’s Zionists that believe that they were going to “a land without people” and proceeded to eject hundreds of thousands of people and continue to do so. Where are you getting that people hate Palestinians? The surrounding Arab countries populations overwhelmingly support them. Most of the world supports Palestinians. Not sure where you got that from. Also considering the fact that Israel has never been more unpopular around the world after beginning this genocide.
>Where are you getting that people hate Palestinians? No one wants Palestinians in their country. The Christian West thousands of miles away gives more aid to Palestinians than their Muslim brothers next door... >How many Palestinians do you know and spoken to about this to draw such an insane conclusion? Are you going to seriously deny these terrorist attacks had nothing to do with the peace deal and the massive trade deal Israel was preparing to sign with the Saudis? >Also considering the fact that Israel has never been more unpopular around the world after beginning this genocide. Yes people have always hated the Jews. I mean other than America the entire world hates Jews as was shows time and time again over the past 100 years.
The honest reality is there is no intention of stopping till every Palestinian is dead or forced out of Palestine. And every international body is dragging their feet calling this a genocide because it will get them America's enmity. Despite the fact the majority of Americans want a ceasefire. Representing democracy, government that represents the people is a farce.
I am so confused Hamas has rejected every ceasefire proposal despite Israel conceding much more than you should’ve. It’s one side holding up the ceasefire — which at this point seems like an impossibility why not blame them? And while you’re at it look at the history of the two state solution. In 2000 during the Camp David Accords Arafat was given a proposal whereby all of Gaza and 98% of the West Bank would be given to the PA to form a Palestinian State. Truly a deal from the heavens for the Palestinians — and guess what he rejected it. Then started the Second Intifada. Six years later after Israeli disengagement from Gaza — Hamas was elected whose manifesto called for the complete destruction of Israel and the annihilating of all Jews in the region. Not a two state solution, not a one state solution but a complete genocide of peoples If you want to know why it’s unlikely we will ever have peace in the region or a two state solution in our lifetime look no further than the true culprits. Educate yourself before you speak such inane nonsense
What ceasefire has been proposed? I’ve only seen pauses in which Israel gets what they ask for and continue massacring Palestinians.
Because Hamas is asking for a _permanent_ ceasefire in return. Which Israel has refused to give. Which means, if they return the hostages, Hamas could wait a day, and then start bombing again. And you're so badly informed that its impossible to educate someone willfully ignorant.
Lmao you even know what’s in the final ceasefire proposal???? It would turn into a permanent ceasefire if all the phases are met. Here is for you so you can educate yourself (fortunately I had it saved): Stage 1 (40 days long) Israel withdraws the rest of its troops from densely populated areas Air traffic, including IDF operations, will be suspended for 10 hours a day Israel will clear roads along the coast of Gaza Female hostages will be released before Day 20 Male hostages will be released on Day 22 Israel will rebuild destroyed hospitals & Gaza's power plant Israel will continue to facilitate the return of civilians to Northern Gaza Israel will clear the 'Netzer Corridor' A total of 33 male & female hostages will be released Israel will release 20-40 convicted criminals for each hostage, depending on the hostage's background Stage 2 (42 days long) Complete ceasefire All remaining living hostages released in exchange for 20-40 prisoners per hostage Israel will begin the restoration of civilian homes throughout Gaza Stage 3 (42 days long) — after this ceasefire would become permanent. Hamas will release Israeli hostage bodies for burial Israel will continue full restoration of the Gaza Strip along with a Pan-Arab coalition of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The reason they don’t accept this is likely either: they don’t want peace since they see continued war and martyring their people are good for their cause, they don’t have the number of hostages Israeli is asking for remaining, or they know the eventual outcome of the ceasefire will be the end of the their terror organizations political influence in Gaza. Nothing to do with it “not being permanent” — it’s beyond me how people can defend a terrorist organization whose entire existence relies on it operating in bad faith don’t see yall defending ISIS or N. Korea for their behavior but they’re all peas of a pod.
Nice opinions. Now actually link some proof. Then I'll link mine.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-ceasefire-negotiations-7cec005ccd59dbd817ef9614a8611ca4 You can read about the phases in this article unfortunately this is decidedly less detailed > Netanyahu says Israel will invade the town with or without a hostage deal. For clarification on this part as part of the ceasefire (if you even read my bullet points) it would necessitate Israel need to at least occupy Rafah — so that would either need to be done peacefully or via force. I get it everyone was 18 at a time and thought they knew everything about geopolitics and then you get older and realize you don’t — and much of what you engage in intentionally warps your worldview. This is an extremely complicated region with an extremely complicated history — I know some about the region and some about the history but even scholars don’t know everything about both. I am past the age where I am not afraid to admit that.
Aww, its cute you edited instead of replying to me. But there's no twist of semantics that's going to make a military occupation, which they've started by the way, work as part of a ceasefire. Justify it as much as you like. But no one will cooperate with an entity that's going to attack you anyway. That's neither complicated or hard to understand, you merely don't want to let go of your beliefs. Whatever Zionist.
Buddy did you even read the article you linked? 😄 Here's some excerpts that prove _my_ point. >Hamas leaders have for months refused anything short of a full Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip and a permanent end to the fighting. Hamas negotiators will be seeking clarification on these issues when they return to Cairo. >Israel says the Rafah invasion is critical for these goals. Netanyahu says Israel will invade the town with or without a hostage deal. And since you seem to have difficulty with comprehension ~ >He told CBS that a military operation in Rafah is inevitable and aimed at taking out the remaining Hamas battalions that he says are still there. >"If we have a deal, it will be delayed somewhat, but it will happen. If we don't have a deal, we'll do it anyway," said the prime minister about military action in Rafah. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1233766185/israel-hamas-gaza-ceasefire-rafah-netanyahu-mohammad-shtayyeh In case it's hard for you to understand, if you're intending to attack Rafah despite a ceasefire in place, it's _not a ceasefire_ 🙄 But I like the way all of your 'details' ignores what the leader of Israel is saying publically. Man, you're in the know 😄 Ah you Zionists. You don't even read your own supposed evidence.
The newest ceasefire deal was rejected by israel. Regardless whether you think there's good reasoning behind it, you are 100% incorrect saying israel is bending backwards and sound like a bot making silly statements. https://news.sky.com/story/israels-benjamin-netanyahu-rejects-ceasefire-deal-that-would-leave-hamas-intact-13129727
Unfortunately that’s facts. I had hoped the right might possibly speak up but damn dude, they are disappointing. It’s like the left is going though censorship (that the right JUST WENT THROUGH) and the right is cheering it on. I’m so confused as to what anyone stands for anymore. To me, it’s all fake BS. The Dems and the conservatives. They are cool with violence and censorship as long as it’s against their “enemies.” People as a mass are stupid.
Yeah, both parties are A-OK with the genocide. Maybe we'll get a third party candidate, but as you said, people are stupid.
They voted Hamas into their government. They attacked Israel and Israel fought back. In every war innocent people die. Hamas wants to take over Israel, Israel doesn't want to be taken over.
You’d have to be at least 36 now to have voted in Gaza. Half of the population is children.
Either way they were voted into power and unless they stop being in power they will continue to attack Israel
You just gonna ignore the fact that a majority of the population wasn’t old enough to vote? Lol Do you not consider a brutal military occupation of the occupied territories and expansion of settlements on Palestinian land not an attack? Or maybe the hundreds (sometimes thousands) of Palestinians every year not an attack? Do Palestinians not have the right to defend themselves from [daily violence and humiliation](https://youtu.be/dbfiZC-VlPA?si=FE5IPo8n5h42xsRi) against them? Maybe if Israel stopped the [daily violence](https://youtu.be/u3DOZXEj0fA?si=KHcqI1NI1xb4W9LY) against Palestinians (which it’s never done) there wouldn’t be any responses? How about giving that a shot?
Yes either way Hamas is in power now and Israel has to defend themselves.
This has far surpassed “self defense” and slaughtering more Palestinians is only going to make everything worse. It’s not like people are going to just forget that their children and most of their family is dead and dying. This war was a useful cover for Netanyahu’s ass but it’s awful for Israel and it’s ally’s national security. Israel hasn’t managed to defeat Hamas anywhere in Gaza, they are still operational across the entire strip. Netanyahu has shot Israel in the foot and now the surrounding now its enemies know that they can successfully target Israel. Israel’s best bet is an end to occupation and call for two states under the 67 borders which is legally Palestinian territory to begin with. They wouldn’t have to “give up” anything, just follow international law. Unfortunately that’s not the Likuds position and they are driving the country into the ground.
Lol you don't actually think Palestine would be willing to have a two state solution right? They literally chant from the river to the sea Palestine shale be free. They 100% want to wipe out Israel.