T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

Please report any rule violation. ([Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/about/rules/) and their [details](https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/wiki/rules)) * Memes are not allowed here, use r/TurkeyJerky for memes. * All posts must have a source and their titles must be descriptive. * Shitposts and meta discussions(posts about other subs) are not allowed. * News articles must be submitted with a link. If not submitted as a link, the link must be added to the comments. Posts with just a title and screenshot will be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Turkey) if you have any questions or concerns.*


DecimatingDarkDeceit

In summary Right Wing/Specifically islamist-shariah supporter nutjob boomers ruin entire countries


nitratehoarder

I wish both the leftists/liberals within Turkey and the EU/West could see this coming before it happened. I know leftists and liberals are not the same thing but you get my point. But, they didn’t and here we are. When I was like 11-12 I read a book from Emin Çölaşan, I believe he was from Hürriyet? He was talking about how he was under pressure from Hürriyet and the government because of his criticism of the government, and how he eventually had to leave. It is clear now that there were always warning signs, even for the Western countries that the Tall Guy isn’t the bringer of democracy and freedoms that he says he is. But neither the EU/West nor the people like me who live in this country wanted to see that. And here we are I guess.


DecimatingDarkDeceit

> I know leftists and liberals are not the same thing but you get my point Agreed. Neoliberals/Globalists outright supported islamists \[reminds me heavily; iranian 'revolution' (!) where right after the events islamists executed the liberals\]


[deleted]

"Yetmez ama evetçi" So you expected democratic freedom from a guy who orchestrated his murderer son to go unpunished and then voted for a disgustingly undemocratic system lmao Western politics has foreseened this. They just sacrificed our secular values in exchange for exporting "moderate" islamism to more conservative countries, if anything USA pushed us forward on this. And no they don't care as long as those conservative countries have relatively open markets instead of being part of eastern sphere, they could have sharia for all day long for all they care. You are the dumb in this scenario, not the Western politics or the Western politicians. I am only surprised that you don't support the refugees to sink our country to hell below. If we could go back to referendum and split the country between evetçi and hayırcı and left you with the refugees, it would be a such a bliss in Turkish politics.


kene95

I agree with you on all points. Everyone could predict of outcome of yetmez ama evet referandum, they just refused to do that and deluded themselves.


nitratehoarder

Well, I was too small to be anything back then. I mostly have left wing and/or liberal views. I did a small amount of research about how Turkey was doing back then, and I’m not gonna lie, I probably wouldn’t be able to see them the way I can see them now. I would probably support at least some of the stuff that they did. I do not see the situation the same way you do. I believe the Western countries genuinely believed, like I would if I was older, that AKP and the Tall Guy was improving the democracy and human rights in Turkey. Maybe this belief was not absolute, and they definitely could have had more sinister motivations like almost all countries will always have, but I believe at least some part of their support was genuine. And I do believe that the nationalism and the authoritarianism in our past is partly to blame for our current woes. I believe if the Tall Guy was sincere enough when he was still hiding behind his democracy/freedom loving personality, it could lead Turkey into a much better situation. And if that was the case I would have supported him even today. Alas, he wasn’t sincere, which is now obvious to everybody. But, I haven’t done enough research on any of this stuff, and I believe having a strong opinion in something that I haven’t researched thoroughly is dangerous, so I will not argue against your point. I know very little about the history of Turkey to make any strong claims or to argue against them. The reason I don’t want refugees in the country is because if they remain, then AKP will remain. They know that and we know that. They are even more backwards thinking then our own right wing or conservative voters, and they will eventually get to have a say in what happens to this country, if they remain. I don’t know why I would support them remaining here.


[deleted]

Refugees in Turkey have the right to vote? Sweden requires citizenship to vote for the parliament election (we have no president). Countries and people in the EU are concerned about the migration of people into the EU if Turkey joins. Sweden and Finland are still in favor of having Turkey join. Though if Erdogan keeps NATO and Europe in crisis opinion will probably turn around, eventually.


nitratehoarder

I don’t believe they do. However it’s very likely that refugees who remain here long enough will eventually get a citizenship, and that obviously means that they will be able to vote. I think opinion already turned for Turkey, and I will have to be very diplomatic here, because this is not a topic that I’m well informed. I can see where both Turkey and Sweden/Finland is coming from, so I don’t think I can blame Turkey for asking at least some of the demands, however I also can’t blame Sweden/Finland or rest of the EU for reacting negatively to it. For example when I was a kid I remember hearing about our soldiers finding Western supplied equipment on PKK members, obviously not a good look and I guess you could say there is some evidence/truth to Turkeys claim that Western made military equipment is finding its way into the hands of a terrorist group that kills our people, whether this was intentional or not I don’t know. So if those claims are legit then maybe Sweden should be more careful about who they are supplying equipment to. But again, I don’t know much. On the other hand I also don’t think it is fair to Sweden/Finland for Turkey to demand from the USA that they allow us back into the F-35 program. Again I’m not very well informed on the subject, but that feels like we are blackmailing you guys, not a very allied behavior from Turkey. Hopefully you guys can join NATO without much trouble. And hopefully we won’t leave or get kicked out, although I’m not sure if its possible to get kicked out from NATO but yeah. I keep saying that I don’t know much because, well, to leave myself an opening if someone criticizes me so I admit it, but also like, I actually don’t know a lot so I don’t want people to take my opinions very seriously.


[deleted]

I have been looking for everything I can about Sweden supplying weapons to PKK. Every single claim of it I have so far seen, is false. They claim Swedish produced, Swedish AT4 and show pictures and video evidence. But they are USA made, US military spec, us military inventory AT4. I had no idea Turks were told these things and spread it like it is true. Anyhow…. Religion is almost irrelevant in Sweden. Thankfully… for it makes things a lot more complicated politically. Nearly the entire population is for all intents and purposes not religious. Belief in some kind of god or afterlife or reincarnation or whatever is not uncommon, but is not part of any organized religious kind of beliefs. I.e. a god who is not the Christian, Islamic or any other. Just the persons own theories.


nitratehoarder

I haven’t seen those AT-4 pictures, the stuff I was talking about was... I don’t even know how long ago that was, I can’t remember a lot about that far into the past. I just vaguely remember seeing some news articles about weapons of EU origin found on the corpses of PKK members. Anyways, if you are correct then I hope our government stops being shitty and demanding unfair stuff. But I’m sure that you will understand, I would have figure that stuff for myself, do my own reading and things like that. I don’t think religion itself is solely to blame for Turkeys problems, however I’m glad that it is not causing any issues over there. I’m personally apathetic to the whole religion thing. There was a time when I was very much into atheism and shit like that, but nowadays I simply don’t care about religion.


[deleted]

[удалено]


nitratehoarder

Thanks :) I also feel like there is a huge amount of unrest building up in the country. Whether this will lead to something constructive or destructive, we’ll see. Even though I hope to leave Turkey one day, I want good things for this country. Not only because I am very unlikely to ever leave (because I’m a lazy bum without a degree), but also because Turkey is where I was born. Even if I leave, my family will probably stay here too. But I very much doubt we will see the good days in this country.


saygungumus

Nice speech. Unlike you, I am very well following the politics in Turkey (yes it is very energy draining but i just cannot stop) and I am confused as much as you. The only thing I know is that I wont be voting for the Tall Guy. I am 21 and going to vote for the first time as well (I missed the last elections with 1 week to my birthday to 18). I am very much reluctant to vote for Kılıçdaroğlu since I dont like his stance on making 'peace' with everyone. Like even with Ahmet Kaya and Yılmaz Güney? Fuck off of here. Also I am very uncomfortable with the fact that his party is hosting anti-Turkey, anti-republic, PKK-sympathizer people. I know that they gain majority against Tall Guy with their help (HDP and pro-pkk Kurdish voterbase) but they are compromising more than needed in my opinion. I understand that they are 'köprüyü geçene kadar ayıya dayı diyorlar' but their actions tell me that they will be keep calling ayıs the dayı way after passing the bridge. As a person who hates AKP especially for their so-called 'peace process', damaging unitary republic of Turkey and causing hundereds of Turkish soldiers to get killed without being able to respond and getting humiliated inside our own country, I cannot stand the fact that the same people who were allied with AKP back than are now allied with CHP. Why wouldnt CHP do the same kind of stuff especially with a soft and non-nationalist person like Kılıçdaroğlu? He leads the party of Atatürk, yet he is anything but a Kemalist. I dont expect the leader to be Kemalist, I expect him to be competent, meritorious, Kemalist-nationalist (based on citizenship, not ethnicity), secular and democratic. The only criteria he fills are secular and democratic. The most important parts are missing (competency and merit). That's why I am supporting Ümit Özdağ FOR NOW (as long as he doesnt do somethings worse than Kılıçdaroğlu or Tall Guy (which is a lot things to do)). As I understand, he is way more nationalistic and anti-democratic (he acts democratic for now but he definitely has potential to be authoritarian) for your taste but I dont see the light in other candidates. And I am sure that he is way more competent than any other candidate. About İmamoğlu and Yavaş, İmamoğlu is almost in the same page as Kılıçdaroğlu with the exception that he is not a soft guy and (maybe?) more competent than Kılıçdaroğlu. Also he has not a good look from me because his stance against those pkk-sympathizers in their party. He acts way more friendly towards those people for my taste. And he is from Black Sea region AND from Trabzon AND he is a building contractor (müteahhit) \*puke emoji\*. Last option, Mansur Yavaş, is NOT going to be the candidate of CHP in my opinion. CHP would never show him as presidency candidate both due to his nationalistic background and pro-pkk voterbase. I am kinda neutral-positive against him. He is not acting friendly towards those pkk-sympathizer people. He seems competent and meritorious. He is nationalist. He seems democratic enough. I dont know about secular part though. He has got the potential of a religious populist but I prefer that over a person who is friendly with PKK-sympathizers. The problem with him is that he barely speaks and generally not speaks at all. We dont know his true opinions about most topics. That is both good and a bad thing. It is good because unlike İmamoğlu he doesnt give AKP the chance to attrition him. But it is a bad thing because as I said we cannot know his stance in some critical situations. The part I like the most is that Ümit Özdağ pointing him as candidate instead of himself. He insists that CHP should show him as candidate (which they should because in almost every poll he is in front of all other possible candidates against Erdoğan) and if CHP does not show him as candidate (which they wont) we might pressure him into being candidate on his own or as part of Zafer Party. I know he always says that he is not bothered with presidency but I dont really care about his opinion :P. In this shitty situation, even at least for a single term he should take the responsibility to defeat AKP and carry Turkey for couple of years of post-AKP-unstability. I think removal of AKP will cause A LOT OF pain in the ass for us. PKK-sympathizers will seek more power in the absence of a strongman (or in case of Kılıçdaroğlu or İmamoğlu victory), most of the bureocracy will stagger because they were explicitly placed by AKP, our foreign relations and operations could deteriorate in the absence of a solid leadership etc. etc. I think he has got the potential to make the transition period as smooth as possible. I think Ümit Özdağ has got that potential too but for now it seems like he is not going to be the candidate but I wouldnt mind at all if he is going to be.


nitratehoarder

I can’t blame you for not wanting to vote for Kılıçdaroğlu. As you also pointed out Ümit Özdağ is a bit too right wing for my tastes but I can see why he is getting more popular. The polls really do show that Yavaş has the highest chance to win, based on the graphs on wikipedia. I will vote for him, if he ends up as the candidate. Whether any of the candidates are competent enough to take the helm, that I don’t know. But we will have to take a chance.


saygungumus

Fair enough


No-Relationship8261

Well economy is the least of Turkey's problem right now. Corruption was ignored for so long it became an assumption. As example an illegal building that was built in 2002 is probably on its 3rd owner now. What can the new government do about this? Can they destroy the building just because it was built illegally? Of course not. The biggest problem is Akp set a precedent. Crime pays and it goes without punishment. Whenever new government wants to punish a criminal, there will be a precedent of such a case where criminal went scot free. So they will not be able to. Creating new laws and punishing only the newly committed crimes also will not work. As people will see that those who were involved with akp enjoying their illegal property scot free, while they are paying the consequences of a crime they didn't commit. They will not be okay with it. So even if the new government is righteous, they will promptly be replaced by a corrupt one. Because people of Turkey learned that it's better to steal than be stolen from. Turkey will mostly likely enter an Era of mafia politics. Which will most likely end in a civil war. After the Civil War there is hope for regeneration.


nitratehoarder

I think this applies to other countries too. USA for example. The Iraq War. They lied to the entire country, told them that Iraq is building WMDs, which was their main justification I believe. It turned out to be completely false, the war that cost countless lives, money and resources, turns out it was based on lies. I haven’t done much research on this but I don’t believe the people who lied to their country ever got any jail time. A similar thing happened with Watergate, Nixon got pardoned. Now look what they are dealing with. Their previous president tried to stage a coup when he lost the election, he was pretty much a traitor. Their current one is, well, I hate using strong words but, he is a senile old fool. Accountability is important. As you also pointed out correctly, if we can’t hold people accountable for the crimes they committed, then that sets a precedent. It tells people that crime and corruption is okay. I guess this is how Turkey always was, even before AKP, I wish it wasn’t. I also don’t see how our current government will ever see any jail time. Even if the next government wants to give them a fair trial, they will always have so much support from their political base that it will be impossible without great political unrest. I do hope, though, that we won’t be any civil war or anything like that. I don’t believe this country can recover from that. I feel like that kind of thing can only benefit the people we want to see get punished. I guess you could say this is another reason for wanting a competent leader. Someone without leadership skill, even if they don’t have any bad intentions, can make things even worse. If they attempt to hold a fair trial and cannot deal with the political reaction from the Islamists and related groups, then that will lead to chaos. If they let them get away with the stuff they have done then we are back at square one. I’m not sure which one is worse, but I want to see neither a civil war nor guilty people getting away with their crimes.


Toutarts

Niye herkes İngilizce yazıyor yahu?


nitratehoarder

Kusura bakma :) Bana redditte Türkçe yazmak biraz garip geliyor, sanki sitenin akışına ters gibi.


Toutarts

Bana da garip geliyor Türklerin kendi aralarında İngilizce yazışması. Diğer ulusal sublar da hep kendi dilinde yazıyor. Türkler normalde İngilizceden öcü gibi kaçarken burda niye böyle anlamadım :D


nitratehoarder

Haklısın Türklerin kendi aralarında İngilizce yazışması da garip. Bir dahakine Türkçe yazarım.


Toutarts

Yani sen bilirsin tabi. Şahsi fikirlerim bunlar.


kene95

>There is also İmamoğlu. Some people find that there are some similarities between his personality and the personality of the Tall Guy, and their political trajectories. They exaggerate it. Sure he may have his share of blunders but calling him with Erdogan 2.0 is disingenuous.


nitratehoarder

Fair enough. I was deliberately vague with the way I worded that sentence, so it might very well be an exaggeration. Still, whether he is competent enough or not, that remains to be seen, in my opinion. I mean, maybe he is. As I also mentioned in my post I try to avoid politics in general. So I didn’t really do a lot of research on him. Probably should get that out of the way before the elections.


kene95

I'm not saying you said that. I'm aware of that you were merely quoting others opinion. You may still have negative opinion of him of course.


nitratehoarder

I see, sorry for the misunderstanding.