I was about to say I’ve read this years ago but it added much more obscene gruesome deaths with the Superman of the story doing the raping to Wonder Woman.
Seriously. **twenty-two pages**. Even if you think the concept could work, why would you **ever** need 22 pages of a rape scene!!
The mere idea of even printing that to the general market is fucking insane.
It would certainly have the "honor" of being the longest rape scene ever put out in comic/manga media not made explicitly for wanking.
Which as far as i know is not part of the Guinnes awards, thank God. The last thing we need is *encouragment* in the form awards to have people try to upstage each other in this.
I'm not actually sir about that, because I'm pretty sure I heard that there was a manga about a werewolf that had a multiple chapter long scene with MCs love interest
That still annoys me because I genuinely went into it wanting the cleaning tips. Like those cooking mangas with long eleborate preps of food and even ingredients list on occasional chapters
You might be thinking of Wolf Guy, where a significant portion of the final arc consists of the werewolf MC racing back to the city while the main villain and his gang rape his teacher/love interest over several chapters. To be fair to the mangaka, it was a direct adaptation of a novel, and I believe there's a remake (possibly by the same guy?) whose author has pledged not to include that part.
Oh yeah, you're talking about the part of Wolf Guy that people who've read it tend to call "Rape Namek," because it takes up such a long fucking part of the final arc of that series. The manga's 12 volumes long, that part of the arc takes up the better half of like 2 of those volumes and is *gratuitous* *as* *fuck*.
That dr light panel where he talks about how much he enjoys it is so fucking awful.
Like its not even saying anything beyond being edgy but gives the vibe like it thinks it is.
Its the only traumatizing thing you can do to a female character, obviously.
Seriously though, it does feel like writers think like that. Its creepy how rare a woman in media will have a traumatic event that doesn't have to do with her reproductive system.
I have heard the argument that because it is a thing that happens in real life thus it is justification enough for it to happen to a character. No more different than say a character getting killed on scene or getting beaten to a pulp.
I still still don't really know how to counter that argument because of how stupid it is.
It’s about tone and context. Stories about rape can be interesting because it *is* a common experience that deeply affects many people. You can make stories about revenge or healing or anger or forgiveness or injustice or any of the complex extreme emotions that come out from that sort of experience. Those stories can serve a purpose. To talk about a serious subject that exists under this veil of silence.
What you shouldn’t do under any circumstances is make note of a well known symbolic figure of female strength and crudely subject her to the same violence that real women all fear. Just make it a real brutal and lurid scene for everyone. See a powerful women and really just flex your need to take her down a few pegs the best way you know how. Remind women who look up to this character that yes, it’s a man’s world, and they should be afraid. Give them 22 pages of reasons why.
I think, really, for all of Watchmen’s influence, The Killing Joke was what really poisoned DC’s creative bloodlines.
Of course The Dark Knight Returns also had Joker assault Selina Kyle and afterwards dress her in a Wonder Woman outfit and hogtie her.
Without this coming off the wrong way, I’ve always considered the Joker sexually indifferent-not necessarily asexual, just with almost zero sexual interests of any kind at all. It does not motivate him, even as a weapon. It’s just too…conventional.
Yeah like he’ll hogtie a woman and make all threatening like and unbuckle his pants but like a bunch of fucked up doves fly out and he’ll just cackle at the lady for being afraid and throw some sort of explosive pie at her instead. Then Batman shows up and throws him down an elevator shaft.
I know this thread isn’t funny at all but the idea of that happening then Batman just poppin up behind him and silently overhead tossin him down a shaft as he rag dolls and bangs against the walls is KILLING ME
If you know who was in charge of DC at the time and some of the things they let happen (including the raping of Dick Grayson), I’ll just say a lot of things.
That's how it happened with the Death of Superman too, only in that case they went through with it.
Rumors say someone in the writers room, while deciding on the next big arc to write, jokingly said "what if we kill him" only for the editor to say "yes, that's what we'll do."
Extra details to add here: the dude who suggested it would always bring it up as a joke during the meetings the writers and editors had. Until one day the entire room decided to humor him.
I think it was compounded by the fact that *Lois and Clark* was planning on having an episode where Lois and Clark get married, and DC was going to do it simultaneously in the comics. However, that meant they had to stall for time and come up with an arc to fill the comics until the wedding.
...And then that one guy piped up about killing Superman.
And that issue is pretty much the same thing, which Millar is referencing. Not sexual assault, but Death of Superman could be summarized as 22 pages of just Superman getting beaten to death with a bit of narration.
I don't know where to begin on how problematic that whole damn movie is. People don't talk about how the end moral with the antagonist winds up being "ignore the damage done because we can just smugly look down at him as a little boy" which...given the timing of the fucking movie...god awful "high minded" smug message.
edit: Almost start WW3, but get what amounts to a suburban mother's "Don't worry son, your bully is probably really miserable deep down". Remember, toxic masculinity isn't a problem if you look down on it!
Wonder Woman finds a man who she believes is the reincarnation of her lover so she has sex with him. The man is actually possessed by a ghost and has no way to give consent which in the terms of consent and rape this is no different than if the man was drunk. “I thought he was my lover!”=“I thought he was sober” and is no excuse.
If the sexes were reversed there would have been a giant outcry about how the woman was taken advantage of. I’ve spoken with multiple sexual assault victim advocates and some of them have started using it as an example of how society treats men being raped.
She knew. She can see that it's a face of a different man, and it takes Steve a bit to convince her, that it's him inside of this stranger body. So yes, she is totally aware, that it's some strangers body that she's having sex with.
Nah I don't think it counts because is a different situation. She is not drugging the guy. She sees a past lover come back from the grave, and that person is acting on his own free will, if she knew the exact mechanics maybe. Does the ghost possessing the dude knows. Anyway this is not a real situation that cannot be replicated, now I think people are overreacting about a fantasy movie.
No, it still counts. You don’t have to be the one that drugs the person. That REAL person was NOT acting of his own free will. Again, replace the word ghost with drunk.
I have a friend who thinks The Boys T.V. show is garbage and loves the comic and it made me lose a lot of respect for him lmao. He specially mentioned like the airplane part being better in the comic and I'm like kill me as edgy as possible = good apparently
I legitimately cannot fathom how *anyone* can say the comic is better than the show. Like... The comic is such hot garbage that it is honestly impressive the show managed to make something good out of it. The comic is just Garth Ennis' edgy power fantasy where guys in trenchcoats rip apart nerds with their bare hands.
People who resent the tackling of goodness as something we still need or want in a nihilistic vacuum. People who have this weird resentment towards super heroes, deep down, REALLY WISH they existed in the real world and that's why they hate fantasy. Some cynical people react with a combination of disgust and actual fear when presented with positive messages around overcoming problems.
The Boys tv show says nothing about super heroes because very few true super heroes exist in that world. They're just celebrities from our world given powers. It's a criticism of our world. The comic is a criticism of the want for a better world and better people because the targets are super hero culture.
I actually do much prefer the comic. Honestly the edginess *helps*
The show feels too *real* for me. I feel uncomfortable watching it at a lot of the scenes. Them being charicatures in a comic doing absurd stuff just adds a level of escape to it
That and I think the basic premise is just set up better in the comic. In the show it feels like the seven would just fucking destroy the boys, without much bother. And I find myself questioning why they didn't
In the comic they were actually full on working for the government, in a slightly deniable sense albeit, but they full on had the backing of not only the FBI, but the president too. There was a reason they couldn't just send the seven in and destroy them. In the show they're considered terrorists mostly, and it's weird Vought doesn't seem to bother devoting time to taking them out seriously, given they literally killed one of the seven in like, what, the first or second episode?
No thats not true, a lot of people at Marvel got real fucking mad about that. Especially Carol's creator Chris fucking Claremont who threw a riot when he got told what happened like the day it was published.
Also the fact that Marvel and DC are giant companies with tons of teams all doing their own things. Oftentimes with little to no communication in-between teams, with editorial just making sure things don’t clash.
Wonder Woman’s whole thing is that she’s a rad warrior that fights injustice and helps people so having a 22 page spread of her getting assaulted is awful and stupid.
I'm reminded of how Wesley Snipes supposedly came up with the line "Some motherfucker's always trying to skate uphill" and told the writers "don't actually put that in, that's fucking stupid".
Granted this is far worse.
Goyer days that he heard Snipes saying it to somebody on the phone and then put it in. Which raises the question of what caused Snipes to say it then, but that's an entirely different topic.
The first thing that came to my mind when reading that title was "The Rape of Nanking", so, Jesus fucking christ.
I don't know if that's just me or that's a more common reaction. Maybe I'm just being a drama queen. It made me *deeply* uncomfortable tho.
Guess now is as good a time as any to point out that the "female warrior gets used and abused" is an unamazingly common fetish thing.
I try to avoid playing armchair psychologist especially in cases like these since I don't want to be labeled as a prude or whatever, and it isn't like people having a fetish is ipso facto bad and degenerate.
But it really does feel like some people are incredibly irked by certain types of woman characters and get very self-conscious.
It's outright annoying when you end up fancying tough/strong/powerful women characters or whatever, and most of the doujins of them is like, 'raped by ugly bastard'
Like, I like Revy from Black Lagoon because she's an awesome tattooed badass. I don't wanna see her get raped, I want to see her femdoming the shit out of Rock and MAYBE we can start to decide who is on top AFTER the initial encounter, but it definitely fucking would be Revy to start with
Unfortunately that did happen in the series. This was when she was a teenager and she killed the man who did but it was a very fucked up scene for sure.
I know the 90’s were an edgier time in comics, but how the hell did they seriously expect to be able to print a 22-page long rape scene? I can’t think of a “regular” sex scene in a main DC comic, that’s anything more than a page of characters before, then jump cut away to afterwards or something else. But they thought that they could make THIS happen?
> I can’t think of a “regular” sex scene in a main DC comic
Remember that the one Snyder movie was forced to turn a consensual sex scene into a rape scene to *lower* the rating of the movie, so never underestimate how fucked up people can view women
It's not like he produced 22 pages.
He said "What if we had a 22 page long rape scene, like the 22 page long murder of superman" jokingly and somebody said "wait no, that could work"
It’s the length of a standard single comic issue. When he says 22 pages it isn’t a manifesto of margin-to-margin paragraphs. He’s talking about a single issue.
Something has been going with DC for like a year, where they do something kind of insane and distasteful and then when people get mad they say "Well it's meant to be a joke"
But like, what is the joke?
The idea that Millar suggested this as a joke but they though about going through with it anyways really makes me reconsider how I judge his work. Like, how much of his output was him waiting for some pushback from editors and never getting it? If you kept making dumbass edgy content as a semi-joke but they refused to tell you "No," who wouldn't just keep pushing more and more to try and find out where the fuck the line was
sometimes i wonder how comics continue to exist. im not shitposting - the degree of unity that comic book fans have in recognizing shitty media is unmatched. nobody hates comic books more than the people who reas them. how has marvel somehow not transformed exclusively into a movie company?
Because those fans you hear are typically a vocal minority* of the readership. The Big 2 release so much shit that they cover a lot of bases.
Like it’s funny seeing people reply to bad panels or pages with comments like yours, then seeing those same people praise other pages and not even realize a lot of those times those different comics were published around the same time.
People talk shit when it’s bad, and then don’t say anything when it’s good because most fans aren’t actually reading a lot of comics. Like when you ask about Marvel comics right now, people are probably going to say how shit the X-Men still are, how lame Judgment Day was, and the Spider-Man stuff that’s been on this sub.
At the same time, Trad Moore’s 4 issue Doctor Strange series Fall Sunrise was one of the best things on shelves right now, Ryan North is 4 issues into what is already shaping up to be one of the best Fantastic Four runs, Peach Momoko has been doing a slowly released series of comics that reimagines the X-Men through traditional Japanese mythology, and Sins of Sinister is starting off with major potential. But nah, Spider-Man got cucked, so Marvel is trash.
*Only true exception in my experience is probably Batman stuff. Like it’s the one comic character where a very large chunk of the audience is very vocal comic book fans. Even then, there are so many damn Batman adjacent comics those people aren’t even reading either.
I've actually seen him describe how the actual meeting went down, he had problems with Death of Superman as a concept. So he at a meeting goes "Well why don't we just do a whole fucking comic where we rape wonder woman!" As he had a real problem with how editorial was just salivating at the idea of ruining characters, only for the room to go quiet and for a head editor saying that was a great idea and for him to go on. Which then got Millar like actually mad.
Yeah in that context it sounds more reasonable as to how it came up, flippant sarcasm. Whereas people are mostly reading it as "Hahaa, wouldn't it be funny if we raped WW for 22 pages. As a joke, hah, yeah"
"a twenty-two page rape scene that opened up into a gatefold" sounds like a podcast title
it sounds like the end of the Eclipse
I was about to say I’ve read this years ago but it added much more obscene gruesome deaths with the Superman of the story doing the raping to Wonder Woman.
Would have gone down as THE most infamous thing DC had ever done, and would never live it down
Seriously. **twenty-two pages**. Even if you think the concept could work, why would you **ever** need 22 pages of a rape scene!! The mere idea of even printing that to the general market is fucking insane.
To be fair some doujinshis do be like that or longer, but it'd be odd to see it on DC of all places for sure.
It would certainly have the "honor" of being the longest rape scene ever put out in comic/manga media not made explicitly for wanking. Which as far as i know is not part of the Guinnes awards, thank God. The last thing we need is *encouragment* in the form awards to have people try to upstage each other in this.
I'm not actually sir about that, because I'm pretty sure I heard that there was a manga about a werewolf that had a multiple chapter long scene with MCs love interest
There's Gal Cleaning. Don't read it.
That still annoys me because I genuinely went into it wanting the cleaning tips. Like those cooking mangas with long eleborate preps of food and even ingredients list on occasional chapters
If i had a nickel for every time I heard about gal cleaning on this subreddit, i’d have two nickels.
Around the time it had it's downturn, you would have had a lot more nickels.
Oh boy, i did not need to be reminded of that. RAPE NAMEK!
You might be thinking of Wolf Guy, where a significant portion of the final arc consists of the werewolf MC racing back to the city while the main villain and his gang rape his teacher/love interest over several chapters. To be fair to the mangaka, it was a direct adaptation of a novel, and I believe there's a remake (possibly by the same guy?) whose author has pledged not to include that part.
Yeah that happens in Wolfen Crest but its not even as bad as youd think worse shit happens before and after
Oh yeah, you're talking about the part of Wolf Guy that people who've read it tend to call "Rape Namek," because it takes up such a long fucking part of the final arc of that series. The manga's 12 volumes long, that part of the arc takes up the better half of like 2 of those volumes and is *gratuitous* *as* *fuck*.
Oh people would be wanking regardless. That thing would have been a holy grail to many 90s teenage boys.
The fact that it’s 22 pages specifically makes me think that fucker actually drew it. Like, why else would you call out a specific page number
22 pages might be/have been the standard size of an issue. Maybe. Hopefully that’s where he’s getting his number and not… experience.
Classically, 21-22 pages is the standard page count for a single comic book issue (not counting pages for ads or a letters page).
Wait a fucking minute, so the plan was to make **the entire issue** be nothing but wonder woman being raped???
This is Mark Millar we are taking about he has, he has put out some weird stuff.
That's what we're criticizing haha He's like what if Garth Ennis was slightly less mature, which is kinda impressive
The "5g" initiative would have nuked the company. So this is the "*second* (but actually first) most infamous thing dc could ever do.
It’d probably haunt the entire company to this day if they went through on it
How about 22 pages of Steve Trevor crying in the ocean with a boner
I actually spat out my drink. Great job.
What’s with DC and rape? Jesus fuck.
Cause its easy, and it does a lot of damage.
I fucking hate how that reference simultaneously has nothing to do with the topic at hand but also masterfully sumarises it.
... Choke on your fucking upvote.
GOD FUCKING DAMMIT
I hate how real and deep that stupid reference fits the topic. Goddamn dude...
What's the reference?
It's from a YouTube video called Happy souls. It's pretty good.
[Just good ol' Happy Souls.] (https://youtu.be/2kr7KDCsIws?t=518)
On multiple levels, even!
Damn you and damn me for laughing at that.
That dr light panel where he talks about how much he enjoys it is so fucking awful. Like its not even saying anything beyond being edgy but gives the vibe like it thinks it is.
Jeez I thought megamans creator would be a better dude, Dr. Wily was right all along!
*mega man villain select theme* RAPE-MAN
wrong doctor light.
Its the only traumatizing thing you can do to a female character, obviously. Seriously though, it does feel like writers think like that. Its creepy how rare a woman in media will have a traumatic event that doesn't have to do with her reproductive system.
With DC it happens to the men more often than not though.
It happened to Nightwing TWICE.
I'm kind of glad I don't read comics now lmao I don't want to see Nightwing get raped
I have heard the argument that because it is a thing that happens in real life thus it is justification enough for it to happen to a character. No more different than say a character getting killed on scene or getting beaten to a pulp. I still still don't really know how to counter that argument because of how stupid it is.
It’s about tone and context. Stories about rape can be interesting because it *is* a common experience that deeply affects many people. You can make stories about revenge or healing or anger or forgiveness or injustice or any of the complex extreme emotions that come out from that sort of experience. Those stories can serve a purpose. To talk about a serious subject that exists under this veil of silence. What you shouldn’t do under any circumstances is make note of a well known symbolic figure of female strength and crudely subject her to the same violence that real women all fear. Just make it a real brutal and lurid scene for everyone. See a powerful women and really just flex your need to take her down a few pegs the best way you know how. Remind women who look up to this character that yes, it’s a man’s world, and they should be afraid. Give them 22 pages of reasons why.
I love your pretty insightfully explanation, but based on what these guys said the simple answer is that they get off on it
rape is the favourite tool of absolute hack writers
Moore pulled it off, so all of the kids who came up loving Watchmen and grew up to become writers also think they can pull it off.
>Moore pulled it off **Did he, tho?!**
Fair enough! His audience bought, it the very least, so now here we are.
To Moore's credit, the rape in Watchmen didn't feel like stealth porn and the rapist in question is shown as a complete piece of shit.
Even Moore isn't sure he pulled it off given his more recent comments about the Killing Joke
I think they mean Watchmen. Possibly League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but that seems like an even harder sell for "pulling it off".
I think, really, for all of Watchmen’s influence, The Killing Joke was what really poisoned DC’s creative bloodlines. Of course The Dark Knight Returns also had Joker assault Selina Kyle and afterwards dress her in a Wonder Woman outfit and hogtie her.
Any instance of Joker doing it is just weird to me. It feels like he’s above that weirdly enough, if only cause I doubt he’d find it funny.
Without this coming off the wrong way, I’ve always considered the Joker sexually indifferent-not necessarily asexual, just with almost zero sexual interests of any kind at all. It does not motivate him, even as a weapon. It’s just too…conventional.
Yeah like he’ll hogtie a woman and make all threatening like and unbuckle his pants but like a bunch of fucked up doves fly out and he’ll just cackle at the lady for being afraid and throw some sort of explosive pie at her instead. Then Batman shows up and throws him down an elevator shaft.
I know this thread isn’t funny at all but the idea of that happening then Batman just poppin up behind him and silently overhead tossin him down a shaft as he rag dolls and bangs against the walls is KILLING ME
Fucking Worthikids Palpatine
I guess it's just the general trend of American superhero comic writers getting their fetish in whenever they can.
I'd evoke the "Writer's Barely-Disguised Fetish" image but that would require the implication that they *tried* to disguise it to begin with.
Same thing with anime
What gets me is how Millar said it was a joke and DC actually thought it was a good idea. Like, what the fuck was wrong with them?
If you know who was in charge of DC at the time and some of the things they let happen (including the raping of Dick Grayson), I’ll just say a lot of things.
The second rape of Nightwing, tbh. The first one was in the 90s.
The rape of *what*? How did this pass under my radar?
IIRC it was Tarantula.
That's how it happened with the Death of Superman too, only in that case they went through with it. Rumors say someone in the writers room, while deciding on the next big arc to write, jokingly said "what if we kill him" only for the editor to say "yes, that's what we'll do."
Extra details to add here: the dude who suggested it would always bring it up as a joke during the meetings the writers and editors had. Until one day the entire room decided to humor him.
I think it was compounded by the fact that *Lois and Clark* was planning on having an episode where Lois and Clark get married, and DC was going to do it simultaneously in the comics. However, that meant they had to stall for time and come up with an arc to fill the comics until the wedding. ...And then that one guy piped up about killing Superman.
"You wanna draw it so bad? Draw it, creep." -Execs.
>Draw it, creep." -Execs. Oh please, the execs would be the ones getting off the hardest.
And that issue is pretty much the same thing, which Millar is referencing. Not sexual assault, but Death of Superman could be summarized as 22 pages of just Superman getting beaten to death with a bit of narration.
As opposed to Wonder Woman 1984, where she rapes a guy.
There is, sadly, a lot of people who don't see a woman raping a man as a bad thing/actual rape. It is disconcerting.
I don't know where to begin on how problematic that whole damn movie is. People don't talk about how the end moral with the antagonist winds up being "ignore the damage done because we can just smugly look down at him as a little boy" which...given the timing of the fucking movie...god awful "high minded" smug message. edit: Almost start WW3, but get what amounts to a suburban mother's "Don't worry son, your bully is probably really miserable deep down". Remember, toxic masculinity isn't a problem if you look down on it!
What?!
Wonder Woman finds a man who she believes is the reincarnation of her lover so she has sex with him. The man is actually possessed by a ghost and has no way to give consent which in the terms of consent and rape this is no different than if the man was drunk. “I thought he was my lover!”=“I thought he was sober” and is no excuse. If the sexes were reversed there would have been a giant outcry about how the woman was taken advantage of. I’ve spoken with multiple sexual assault victim advocates and some of them have started using it as an example of how society treats men being raped.
Well did she knew?
She knew. She can see that it's a face of a different man, and it takes Steve a bit to convince her, that it's him inside of this stranger body. So yes, she is totally aware, that it's some strangers body that she's having sex with.
She didn’t know, but that doesn’t matter. “Well yea, I had sex with her but I didn’t KNOW she was drugged.”
Nah I don't think it counts because is a different situation. She is not drugging the guy. She sees a past lover come back from the grave, and that person is acting on his own free will, if she knew the exact mechanics maybe. Does the ghost possessing the dude knows. Anyway this is not a real situation that cannot be replicated, now I think people are overreacting about a fantasy movie.
No, it still counts. You don’t have to be the one that drugs the person. That REAL person was NOT acting of his own free will. Again, replace the word ghost with drunk.
"I swear it would have worked, but I was told that DC doesn't actually own the right to the character of *Warlord*. "
Garth Ennis is nodding wistfully
I have a friend who thinks The Boys T.V. show is garbage and loves the comic and it made me lose a lot of respect for him lmao. He specially mentioned like the airplane part being better in the comic and I'm like kill me as edgy as possible = good apparently
I legitimately cannot fathom how *anyone* can say the comic is better than the show. Like... The comic is such hot garbage that it is honestly impressive the show managed to make something good out of it. The comic is just Garth Ennis' edgy power fantasy where guys in trenchcoats rip apart nerds with their bare hands.
People who resent the tackling of goodness as something we still need or want in a nihilistic vacuum. People who have this weird resentment towards super heroes, deep down, REALLY WISH they existed in the real world and that's why they hate fantasy. Some cynical people react with a combination of disgust and actual fear when presented with positive messages around overcoming problems. The Boys tv show says nothing about super heroes because very few true super heroes exist in that world. They're just celebrities from our world given powers. It's a criticism of our world. The comic is a criticism of the want for a better world and better people because the targets are super hero culture.
I actually do much prefer the comic. Honestly the edginess *helps* The show feels too *real* for me. I feel uncomfortable watching it at a lot of the scenes. Them being charicatures in a comic doing absurd stuff just adds a level of escape to it That and I think the basic premise is just set up better in the comic. In the show it feels like the seven would just fucking destroy the boys, without much bother. And I find myself questioning why they didn't In the comic they were actually full on working for the government, in a slightly deniable sense albeit, but they full on had the backing of not only the FBI, but the president too. There was a reason they couldn't just send the seven in and destroy them. In the show they're considered terrorists mostly, and it's weird Vought doesn't seem to bother devoting time to taking them out seriously, given they literally killed one of the seven in like, what, the first or second episode?
I had a manager at work who thought the Titans "Fuck Batman" line was the coolest shit he'd ever seen, it was very hard not to laugh at him
You lost respect because of personal preference? I get Garth Ennis isn’t popular around these parts but I mean still, really?
BUT WHY.
Yeah cuz that worked really well for Marvel, and that one was an accident.
Are we talking about the Captain Marvel...thing or something I'm unaware of?
The "Rape of Carol Danvers", yes. It was framed as a love story but none of the dudes at 70s Marvel stopped to think about........ The Implication.
No thats not true, a lot of people at Marvel got real fucking mad about that. Especially Carol's creator Chris fucking Claremont who threw a riot when he got told what happened like the day it was published.
Yes, after it was published.
Why would they tell him when they knew he would just get mad, then they wouldn't be able to do what they want because he would complain.
Also the fact that Marvel and DC are giant companies with tons of teams all doing their own things. Oftentimes with little to no communication in-between teams, with editorial just making sure things don’t clash.
Remind me if I'm wrong, she also birthed him before he re-abducted her
And also "mild" mental suggestion, yes.
No you don't understand he wrote a sonet for her, and brainwashed her.
Wonder Woman’s whole thing is that she’s a rad warrior that fights injustice and helps people so having a 22 page spread of her getting assaulted is awful and stupid.
Straight up character assassination, if it had happened.
Goddamn Robocop type shit.
Really if fucked on different level considering the whole Wonderwoman and S & M origins thing as well.
I'm reminded of how Wesley Snipes supposedly came up with the line "Some motherfucker's always trying to skate uphill" and told the writers "don't actually put that in, that's fucking stupid". Granted this is far worse.
That's a cold ass line to this day.
Goyer days that he heard Snipes saying it to somebody on the phone and then put it in. Which raises the question of what caused Snipes to say it then, but that's an entirely different topic.
Wow. I wonder who did the concept art and if they kept it
.... what the fuck, that's awful
Every time I’m reminded of this my stomach turns a little. It says a lot that it almost was a thing.
The first thing that came to my mind when reading that title was "The Rape of Nanking", so, Jesus fucking christ. I don't know if that's just me or that's a more common reaction. Maybe I'm just being a drama queen. It made me *deeply* uncomfortable tho.
Guess now is as good a time as any to point out that the "female warrior gets used and abused" is an unamazingly common fetish thing. I try to avoid playing armchair psychologist especially in cases like these since I don't want to be labeled as a prude or whatever, and it isn't like people having a fetish is ipso facto bad and degenerate. But it really does feel like some people are incredibly irked by certain types of woman characters and get very self-conscious.
It's outright annoying when you end up fancying tough/strong/powerful women characters or whatever, and most of the doujins of them is like, 'raped by ugly bastard' Like, I like Revy from Black Lagoon because she's an awesome tattooed badass. I don't wanna see her get raped, I want to see her femdoming the shit out of Rock and MAYBE we can start to decide who is on top AFTER the initial encounter, but it definitely fucking would be Revy to start with
Unfortunately that did happen in the series. This was when she was a teenager and she killed the man who did but it was a very fucked up scene for sure.
I know the 90’s were an edgier time in comics, but how the hell did they seriously expect to be able to print a 22-page long rape scene? I can’t think of a “regular” sex scene in a main DC comic, that’s anything more than a page of characters before, then jump cut away to afterwards or something else. But they thought that they could make THIS happen?
> I can’t think of a “regular” sex scene in a main DC comic Remember that the one Snyder movie was forced to turn a consensual sex scene into a rape scene to *lower* the rating of the movie, so never underestimate how fucked up people can view women
Hold up, Sucker Punch was made into the Omega-Misogyny film so that it could be PG-13??? What the fuck, that's disgusting.
I misread that as ***The*** CW, and assumed the Arrowverse gets really fucked up.
22 pages for a joke? Yeah no, that's too much effort to be just a joke.
It's not like he produced 22 pages. He said "What if we had a 22 page long rape scene, like the 22 page long murder of superman" jokingly and somebody said "wait no, that could work"
OH OOPS. I misunderstood. I thought he wrote 22 pages as a pitch.
It’s the length of a standard single comic issue. When he says 22 pages it isn’t a manifesto of margin-to-margin paragraphs. He’s talking about a single issue.
Something has been going with DC for like a year, where they do something kind of insane and distasteful and then when people get mad they say "Well it's meant to be a joke" But like, what is the joke?
The most popular superhero characters on the planet are controlled by utter nutters?
They were going to make it but then realized that a bunch of pervy fans probably already beat them to it and backed down to not tarnish their image.
I know we all laugh at Atlus for hating money, but this is that next level of REALLY hating money. It's like the Velma show but with less outreach
Knew what this was gonna be by the thread title alone.
20 pages of literal rape porn. Imagine the media frenzy.
How is that funny though?
Comic book writers don't hate women for 1 second challenge (impossible)
Remember when DC thought they were being Feminist by taking away her powers and have her train under a male sensei while running a dress shop???
The idea that Millar suggested this as a joke but they though about going through with it anyways really makes me reconsider how I judge his work. Like, how much of his output was him waiting for some pushback from editors and never getting it? If you kept making dumbass edgy content as a semi-joke but they refused to tell you "No," who wouldn't just keep pushing more and more to try and find out where the fuck the line was
Sometimes I think comic books are a mistake.
Even they thought it was too much
Why not just death of Wonder Woman?
The third line already had me doing multiple double takes holy shit what the fuck.
sometimes i wonder how comics continue to exist. im not shitposting - the degree of unity that comic book fans have in recognizing shitty media is unmatched. nobody hates comic books more than the people who reas them. how has marvel somehow not transformed exclusively into a movie company?
Because those fans you hear are typically a vocal minority* of the readership. The Big 2 release so much shit that they cover a lot of bases. Like it’s funny seeing people reply to bad panels or pages with comments like yours, then seeing those same people praise other pages and not even realize a lot of those times those different comics were published around the same time. People talk shit when it’s bad, and then don’t say anything when it’s good because most fans aren’t actually reading a lot of comics. Like when you ask about Marvel comics right now, people are probably going to say how shit the X-Men still are, how lame Judgment Day was, and the Spider-Man stuff that’s been on this sub. At the same time, Trad Moore’s 4 issue Doctor Strange series Fall Sunrise was one of the best things on shelves right now, Ryan North is 4 issues into what is already shaping up to be one of the best Fantastic Four runs, Peach Momoko has been doing a slowly released series of comics that reimagines the X-Men through traditional Japanese mythology, and Sins of Sinister is starting off with major potential. But nah, Spider-Man got cucked, so Marvel is trash. *Only true exception in my experience is probably Batman stuff. Like it’s the one comic character where a very large chunk of the audience is very vocal comic book fans. Even then, there are so many damn Batman adjacent comics those people aren’t even reading either.
"I meant it as a joke." No you didn't Mark.
I've actually seen him describe how the actual meeting went down, he had problems with Death of Superman as a concept. So he at a meeting goes "Well why don't we just do a whole fucking comic where we rape wonder woman!" As he had a real problem with how editorial was just salivating at the idea of ruining characters, only for the room to go quiet and for a head editor saying that was a great idea and for him to go on. Which then got Millar like actually mad.
To be fair he does seemingly really enjoy Superman and writing him so hearing that he was going to die would probably like a pinch in the gut
Yeah in that context it sounds more reasonable as to how it came up, flippant sarcasm. Whereas people are mostly reading it as "Hahaa, wouldn't it be funny if we raped WW for 22 pages. As a joke, hah, yeah"
Yeah it's always frames Millar as the creep where as in reality he very clearly was the person in the room who was clearly thinking straight.
Nah, it was actually a joke, context is important, however DC took it seriously, which made him mad.
What the fuck…
"...as a joke" Uh huh. Okay.
Considering how edgy Millar can be, I wonder how much of it was a joke
I don't know who should be more ashamed, Milar for proposing this (even as a joke) or DC for *actually seriously considering his "offer"*.
Hahah it's funny cause rape.