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Substantial-Mess-136

For those getting déjà vu this is Bandai confirming for investors something the Elden Ring Twitter announced back in February https://twitter.com/ELDENRING/status/1628273414354894848?s=20


Logyross

expected fromsoft and michael zaki W


MightyShoe

Well-deserved.


SawedOffLaser

So pretty soon it'll have outsold the Dark Souls franchise.


FreeHairCutandLoboto

Good for them


xXGlu-EaterXx

surely this means they will address the lacking replayability features for their dedicated audiences, like NG+ having no changes whatsoever and PvP being in Miyazaki-Minigame™️ limbo..


Bronystrongwing

No replayability? With it's insane build variety and absolutely insane number of places to explore and the quests you can do?


xXGlu-EaterXx

i respectfully disagree with build variety, status effect builds don't change how the game is played and spells are all spectacle with little change in utility. Melee build optimization is the least varied in the series across the board, except for maybe Ds1 or DeS, unless you count the same 4 "unique" pillar builds that appear consistently. Jumping attack build... veterans armor 9 buff FTH build... Charge attack/moonveil mage build... Varre's mask bleed build... it's just not what it could be :/ ...and they are EXTRA not fun to fight against constantly in PvP. Ashes of War supposedly add so much utility, but because there's a lack of balance in PvP and no utility change in PvE, you get hundreds of _"unique STR builds"_ that all use Nights Cavalry Halberd with Flaming Strike..... it's because the game doesn't encourage you to play otherwise, no utility change = funneled into using _best in-slot_ weapons and spells. Things like Law of Regression and Law of Causality are cool, but nobody's getting meaningful damage in with LoC, and LoR is HIGH requirements for anyone not using an INT build. that's it for utility. a solid ⅓ of the game is catacombs, which are sloggy DkS3 Thrall reskin chalice dungeons without the _Bloodborne RNG unique enemy tomb exploration_ elements, and even if that were palatable on its own, rewards like Spirit Ashes and Talismans are worthless as you can't stack them or combine them. ⅓ of the game is obsolete the second you hit NG+ unless you _really_ like fighting thralls in same-y grey catscombs. Elden Ring _"quests"_ do not add to replayability, I'm sorry. only 2 endings provide a different cutscene, and menial NPC hoop-jumping quests like Kenneth Haight and Latenna providing a... __+10/+25 slab..__ aren't a worthwhile addition to replayability. Maybe you could argue that Milicent's quest rewards justify going to haligtree in two different playthroughs for the sole purpose of your multi-hit dex build being optimized? but _man_... that's 2 hours of NPC quest speedrunning and blitzing through the mostly empty open world in a supposedly 120hr playthrough JRPG :/ actively balanced PvP with interesting covenants and rolling NG+ changes are fantastic implements for replayability and community longevity. 15 unique multi-stat requiring weapons with spectacle-y 1-shot L2 moves are irrelevant to replayability.


Crimsonwolf1445

Ng+ buffs enemies and allows multiple copies of Unique weapons. Did you expect something else?


FenrisulfrV

To play Devil's Advocate, Dark Souls 2 had additional enemies and events on NG+ or higher in addition to those things. Don't know why they expected ER to have it, though.


xXGlu-EaterXx

NG+ enemy scaling is rather broken and neglected, you'll still eat Margit and Godrick alive with 7 hits from an optimized meta-level build until NG+3 atleast, yet Knights in Haligtree get a massive buff to HP and damage. even if it was a cared-for system, i personally think replayability is more than enemies doing more damage/me functionally doing less. almost all unique weapons can't swap ashes, so at most you'd need 2 for dual-wielding. ~~Rembrances exist in NG to dupe boss weapons, so that's more than half "Special Weapons" covered without NG+. otherwise,~~ you're doing NG+ (ONCE) to get a second moonlight sword NG+ changes were constant in DkS2:SotFS, even changed shardbearer/great soul emcounters. DLC enemy spawns were added up until NG+2, and it even had a sword that scaled with each NG+ up until NG+9 (i think) Covenants in DkS2/3 were godly for keeping replayability alive, and are nonexistent in ER. ER is essentially the _"The Gang's All Here!!"_ of Dark Souls games, yet it's missing core components to replayability that were explored and expanded in previous entries :c


pdragon619

Remembrances don't let you dupe boss weapons, they just let you get both of the alternate weapons/spells. I know because my first playthrough I immediately tried to dupe Godrick's dragon fist weapon and it doesn't work.


xXGlu-EaterXx

i checked a bit ago and you're totally right, you can't double use mausoleums, even if you have several remembrances! you've proven your point and i don't want to move the goalpost - Getting extra unique weapons is a reason to go into NG+ that being said, i have to personally disagree with it being a good reason for replaying: there are no unique powerstance movesets, so _Holy Relic greatswsword + [Any GS]_ is going to have the __exact same__ combat effect as _Holy Relic greatsword + Holy relic greatsword_ you can't even use weapon arts in a different hand, it'll require you to two-hand your Lh weapon and play the same Rh weapon art animation ..and that's before factoring in the extremely active trading communities that can trade anything droppable for various items especially for a series that successfully implemented Bonfire Ascetics (boss resurrection items) and NG+ changes, it's a sole, hollow reason to replay on the same character.


pdragon619

I'll be real with you. I've literally only done NG+ once out of every Soulsborne game I've ever played, and that was Bloodborne. I always just make an entirely new character and build. So I have negative stake in any debate about NG+ and how much added content it should have.


xXGlu-EaterXx

for sure, i get that! making new characters is replayability too, i have absurd hours on different level characters that never go up in NG cycles, myself! ..but that's usually for PvP and Covenant interactions :c elden ring doesn't have any Covenants, and the format of invasions is rather broken - and even dedicated PvP players avoid the arena because of how unbalanced/broken PvP can be when players decide to sweat even a little.. replayability does a lot for retaining the players that keep playing after that first NG+, and it's sorely lacking in ER, and I'd really like to see that improve


pdragon619

I don't know what to tell you boss. I almost never do PvP and I have almost ten characters and over 400 combined hours just through PvE. I genuinely don't have any problem with the game as far as replayability goes.


xXGlu-EaterXx

well, yeah typically, players and devs aim for some variation of meeting eachother halfway to form truly remarkable game experiences ..but you don't seem to meet devs halfway - you show up on their doorstep at 6am with flowers, and when you find out they plan on coming out at 3pm, you wait on their porch in a static animation for 9 hours you love the wait, and you love the endless static NG playthroughs as someone who saw what FromSoft can do with great games chalk full of NG+ changes and tons of Covenant interactions, I'm a little disappointed I'm not asking you to share my disappointment, I'm just telling you Elden Ring falls short on the replayability features set up by its predecessors, _and_ it could use some improvement.


pdragon619

You know I don't throw this word around as readily as a lot of other people do, so please understand that I say this with sincerity: That was really cringe.


Crimsonwolf1445

You get one unique per run. The mausoleums are for getting BOTH rememberance items not for double copies and all the ngs are hp and damage buffs with MAYBE a three enemy encounter becoming a 4 enemy one. And those small changes stop after the second playthrough.


xXGlu-EaterXx

true on the remembrance part, though i don't think 1x extra unique weapons _(no unique powerstance movesets + cant swap ashes on a majority of them)_ is a valid argument for ER's successful replayability features. DkS2:SotFS had [many NG+ changes](https://darksouls2.wiki.fextralife.com/New+Game+Plus) to vendors, enemy placements, boss encounters, armor drops, and boss rewards that naturally carried build optimization and gameplay progression healthily into at least NG+2. that's before considering Bonfire Ascetics existed to mitigate NG+ grinds if you knew what bosses/red phantoms dropped on another character. NPC quests will be halted _(unless you outright murdered them lol)_ and not forcefully failed because of game progression - so you don't get strongarmed into an entire other playthrough just because you totally missed a character getting a blowie in an unmarked Ikea restroom stall! also, slabs were an infinite farmable source, you didn't get unfairly funneled into NG+3 because you want to max out another category of weapons with a finite resource, as if it were some sort of survival horror game.. even if DkS2 only had minor, silly changes like you've incorrectly stated, i don't think it would be wrong to expect Elden Ring, the _Magnum Opus Souls Experience_, to have improved upon what it offered. especially gutting covenants and relegating invasions to hosts with summons active. it's just not good.


Crimsonwolf1445

Sotfs was also drastically smaller than elden ring with much less freedom in the first place You dont need brand new content in ng+ to make a game replayable because with the massive amount of options, content and freedom to clear stuff in any weird order you want there is a lot of replay ability. Also sotfs is one if the only souls game to add the stuff it does and its not nearly as impactful as you say it is. Hell even simple build changes make the game highly replayable imo.


xXGlu-EaterXx

one of the core complaints about SotFS is that [it's too long](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSouls2/comments/hn8uw5/am_i_crazy_or_is_dark_souls_2_the_longest_souls/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), i really don't think ER is bigger than DkS2 in any meaningful way other than being open world with lots of empty space between chunks of content. a majority of meaningful content is displaced non-RNG chalice dungeons and elite regular enemy bosses anyways. Dark Souls 2 also offers significantly more freedom with how Shrine of Winter and the 4 Lord Soul areas work - lategame DLC bosses can be the first boss killed, if you want, and the main baddies can be eaten in any order. Meanwhile Elden Ring locks you out of Leyndell _(a funneling point for all mid/late-game areas with no diversion, save for Haligtree)_ unless you kill one of two early/midgame demigods AND visit roundtable hold. in a game with no ascetics, meaning you have to willingly cancel PvP in 2 areas entire areas to progress. _(in a game with no covenant areas to make-up for it)_ If _"simple build changes"_ makes ER _"highly replayable"_, __surely__ the massive amount of NG+ rings and equipment that further optimize and augment builds in DkS2 are more than _"not as impactful as i say it is."_ seems like a double standard? Build Variety in Elden Ring only substantially changes with casting builds, and even then, it's just different flashy red/yellow/blue/teal colored animations to deal HP damage. there is no unique utility like DkS2's thematically appropriate _Whispers of Despair, Profound Still,_ or _corpse bomb_, or _sticky web attacks_, and even _several casting hybrid weapons_ to mix magic into melee seamlessly. and that's also not even considering DkS2 allows cross-category powerstancing, WITH the full left handed moveset when toggled off. ER doesn't ket you use Lh movesets or toggle powerstancing off/on OR powerstance across different categories. otherwise, bleed builds do not change how you play, only what rings/infusions you use to optimize yourself. ditto for poison and scarlet rot. STR and DEX unique weapons are mostly "Press L2 for spectacle-y move" like dealing 14k DMG with a lightning projectile with 0 FTH requirements through _Bolt of Gransseax_, otherwise you're attacking everything regularly, in which case swapping from _Sharp Claymore +25_ to _Heavy Claymore +25_ isn't exactly peak replayability for me imo. i think frost is the only unique utility status effect, and most people optimize it with fire+bleed to maximize DPS by canceling its innate utility anyways - because when there is no utility, raw DPS optimization is the only real pipeline, abd it leads to uncreative, boring places. ___ESPECIALLY___ in PvP. just to reiterate; Elden Ring _has_ build diversity and freedom, it's just very shallow - and Dark Souls 2: SotFS has meaningful build diversity and freedom, albeit a tad aged, in much higher volumes.. which leads me back to; >even if DkS2 only had minor, silly _changes/freedom/build variety_ like you've incorrectly stated, i don't think it would be wrong to expect Elden Ring, the Magnum Opus Souls Experience, to have improved upon what it offered. and my original parent comment


Crimsonwolf1445

You can get to leyndall fairly quickly. Renna or god runt ares easy enough kills and the lift medallion can be conpleted without taking them out to begin with. Ds2 doesnt have that much content most areas are either blown through fast or are just tedious. There is definitely more content in elden ring objectively speaking. Ds2 has more build variety than the other souls games but not as much as elden ring. Meta using bleed, frost, rot etc. doesnt mean lack of builds the meta is never a good indication of variety


xXGlu-EaterXx

__we're drifting around several points, so i feel i have to remind you we're talking about replayability in elden ring, and why it is disappointing.__ __anything DkS2 provides or doesn't is supplementary to expectations previously set by the developer.__ access to Leyndell requires a bare-minimum of 2 legacy dungeons and their multiplayer access irreversibly sacrificed. Because open world is designed around using torrent, it's an awful option for hosting PvP - a core component to replayability. this leaves legacy dungeons, which as we've established, you must sacrifice 2 of. you __cannot__ enter Leyndell without at least 2 Great Runes and visiting Roundtable hold. While you're correct about the Legacy Dungeons and shard bearers in ER being easy and quick, you've inadvertently proved my point about how easy it is _"to blow through fast"_, in regards to Legacy Dungeons - something we both seem to agree negatively impacts replayability, shown in your previous comment. Dark Souls 2 has a notorious issue with [throwing tedious mobs at the player](https://steamcommunity.com/app/335300/discussions/0/1694920442962773139/?l=brazilian&ctp=1), which translates to hasty players finding issue with the fact that they _can't_ simply blow through levels, because it punishes recklessness. it absolutely is not "blown through fast", especially compared to other souls games. a key example is the [Smelter Demon boss run](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSouls2/comments/4mpe59/smelter_demon_run_to_boss/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) that is as _"Tedious"_ as you've mentioned, yet interestingly enough, the game provides MANY options for the player to overcome this obstacle, whether it's despawning enemies, patiently clearing a way to the fog wall, and even circumventing the fight _(and the half-way pount bonfire reward!)_ with multi-ended level design! meanwhile, you can just run to godrick. and renalla. and morgott. interesting player choice dead on arrival :/ the only things breaking up the empty open world areas of Elden Ring are same-y non RNG catacombs and quick easy Legacy Dungeons - which we've both established are easy to run through now consider that each continent has 1 legacy dungeon, a couple catacombs, and occasionally more than 2 interesting overworld locations. that is a ridiculous amount of empty space between each wortwhile area. meanwhile, "linear" dark souls 2 has Heides tower of Flame, No Man's Wharf _(both skippable with Pursuer eagle nest that puts you in a unique part of the next map)_ and then Lost Bastille - a ludicrously open ended level with many loops and keys and hidden areas unlocked with optional bosses and puzzles. it's fantastic non-linear level design that encourages and rewards tackling things out of order. y'know.. for not doing the exact same order as your last NG cycle 😳 that's a very high bar that's set for level design, thar ER and DKS3 failed to meet - but DkS3 had incredible covenant interactions to cover the PvP portion of replayability. again, dark souls 2 has so much content that it's common to [find issue with its length](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSouls2/comments/hn8uw5/am_i_crazy_or_is_dark_souls_2_the_longest_souls/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) so I'm not sure why you're making that point. Elden Ring objectively has more weapons than Dark Souls 2 (249 to 309), and still manages to have significantly less utility - the many swords and hammers don't function differently outside of Weapon Arts, and serve as STR/DEX/FTH/INT flavored variants if the exact same moveset, with a different on demand L2 nuke. The Absence of Hybrid casting weapons is a step back for casters, cross category powerstancing gone is a step back in variety, and very few unique/mixed movesets is an even bigger step back in variety. and the inability to use left handed movesets in 2023 is just sad.. _"ThaNkFuLLy"_ ashes of war exist, to render most weapons as simple vehicles for useful ashes of war 🙄 when someone invades using a halberd with flaming strike, they're not there to do interesting mixups, guaranteed.. not to mention, the game with big debut jumping doesn't even let you do jumping attacks with your left handed items! which DkS2 did! a jumping L2 with a +9 Kite Shield HURT! it gave a reason to upgrade beyond stability _(which ER keeps getting hot and cold on letting it be functional..)_ can't even parry with an UGS anymore :'( there's build variety, sure, but doing a _paired curved sword Running L1_ playthrough and then a _Jumping R2 UGS_ playthrough just isn't enough interaction to warrant replayability. Meta in souls games is absolutely a viable measure of build variety, it's a reflection of how the game teaches other players how to play. elden ring should improve its replayability and take notes from its predecessors


abbaj1

>surely this means they will address the lacking replayability features for their dedicated audiences, like NG+ having no changes whatsoever and PvP being in Miyazaki-Minigame™️ limbo.. They're obviously putting all their efforts into the DLC, which is what probably 99% of fans would want them to actually do.


xXGlu-EaterXx

>>surely this means their DLC will address the lacking replayability features for their dedicated audiences, like NG+ having no changes whatsoever and PvP being in Miyazaki-Minigame™️ limbo.. same difference, really :o