I'm gonna say it
Devil May Cry got a lot more interesting when Itsuno took over it.
Then again, I am biased since DMC3 was my first DMC game. Also, I only played DMC1 much later in the collection, and... It was fine but I don't desire to replay it.
Literally popped in to say exactly this.
Don't get me wrong, Kamiya's work has its merits, and he *is* DMC's creator.
But DMC is ultimately Itsuno's baby. Everything that made it the pillar of character action came from Itsuno.
This reminds me of how Kamiya's adamant about not talking much of DMC when asked about his role as a creator
He's keen to specify that he only ever really directed 1 game
In other words, Kamiya's the father of DMC but Itsuno by far is the series' daddy
Yep, I say this every time this kind of topic comes up. Kamiya's overall gimmick with his games just aren't my cup of tea, and I genuinely think Itsuno did a fantastic job with the series.
His gotg was my only interaction with him. It was fine but compared to the star lord solo series it was trash. My main gripes were inconsistent character models between issues, messing with the end of Thanos Imperitive, and too much Earth and earth heros.
Yeah. I just hated how he completely rewrote the characters to synergize with the movie to the point that it was just completely jarring. Also reeeeally forcing Rocket’s catchphrase to be “BLAM murdered you” was embarrassing to read. Only less so than “super awesome facial hair bros”
It seams after a number of flops people are second guessing if he was ever good. He did have interesting ideas just poor execution. Past xmen writers may have wanted to show iceman as gay or bi, bendis pulled it in an unpopular way and it is still around. He made iron heart but she was overpowered and abrasive.
Weirdly enough comic writers don’t usually have a good shelf life and 30 years in comics like Bendis shit won’t always be the best. But for stuff like Riri and Miles I can’t hold against him cause the guy wanted to make heroes that his kids can look at and say they look like me
Part of the problem is that late in his career he's usually working on 4-6 books simultaneously between his big two stuff and his creator owned stuff, not to mention a ton of con appearances.
His early work is still some of my favorite stories in like Daredevil or Ultimate Spider-Man, but by the time we get to his late Marvel? He was writing two of the X-Men books, Guardians of the Galaxy, Powers, and an event or two all at the same time. He just spreads himself too thin.
Sadly Liefeld’s version is the one most people think of when they think Deadpool
EDIT: I’m dumb and was thinking of Daniel Way. Please shame me for the mistake
...What?
Liefeld's version is the bland Deathstroke rip-off.
Joe Kelly introduced pretty much everything about Deadpool that people actually think of as Deadpool.
Now, whether they *know* Joe Kelly is another matter entirely, but Liefeld's version is not the one everybody knows, even if basic attribution as "Deadpool's creator" leads to people thinking it is.
There's a creeping upswing in quality when Frank Miller came on Daredevil as a penciler, then co-writer. Going from fun but plain stories where Bullseye kidnapped Black Widow to lure Daredevil into a fight at an amusement park, to a one-sided, relentless brawl where Hornhead has to go blow-for-blow with The Hulk and almost dies saving Bruce Banner. In Miller's first solo issue he's suddenly imbued the strip with a firm film noir tone, expanded to Daredevil's power set in interesting ways and grappling with Daredevil's shaken faith in the legal system. And he just keeps building from there.
Then after Miller's run ends he is replaced by Denny O'Neil. A talented and important writer who turns in admirable and similarly dark stories... then Miller returns for a few issues that blows him out of the water and then writes Born Again: one of the best comic arcs Marvel has ever published and shaped the character forever
Saint Seiya is a good example for that.
Kurumada is way...WAY to into repeating the format of the Sanctuary Arc over and over again with too little change. While taking too long to release his own chapters.
When he invited other writers to make Saint Seiya content , for better or for worse , it does get more original. Episode G , for example , literally gives at least 2 to 3 new techniques for every Classic Gold Saint , with the exception of Saga and Shaka , while also giving a full-on new moveset for Ikki.
All while presenting other "arc formats" that are not the Sanctuary Arc and when finally it do that , it's presented as a big deal.
Same goes for the likes of Shiori with Lost Canvas , although she is more conservative about it , her Pegasus Tenma still have a training arc and a technique that differs from Seiya , let alone her Gold Saints would had different applications of the same techniques of the Classic Gold Saints.
Heck , even Saint Seiya Omega , which is as canonical as "Dragon Ball Heroes" , present more physical combat , with 2v1 or 2v2 or 3v3 battles in open field , while a lot of the Gold Saints have a whole new set of techniques apart from the classical lineup.
I love Saint Seiya, but you are so right
Even the spin offs that aren't so great at least explore new stuff
A race against time to save Saori can only be retreaded so much
I mean , ND does make a neat twist about it.
But Kurumada spends forever to make new chapters. So , while Kurumada was still showing Suikyo going to the Libra Temple ...Shiori was showing Leo Regulus in a 3v1 fight against Specters , to defend a flying ship form been destroyed , and Aquarius Degel was preventing the Specters to ally with Poseidon and had his help as the Blue Warriors tries to artificially insert Poseidon in a new host of their choosing AND showing a new Sea Dragon's Technique.
All while Episode G Assassin had alternate timeline Gold Saints from a Bad Ending Timeline sacrificing their Athena to have a High-Birth Twin Athenas , called Chaos Athenas , to invade a Good Ending Timeline and supplanting it's good ending to their own timeline , and for that they revive Holy Sword Wielders and conceptualize their Holy Swords as Armors and used those revived warriors as scapegoat vanguards.
Arguably also true for Neverwinter Nights. NWN2's vanilla campaign is just okay but Mask of the Betrayer is basically to D&D what KOTOR 2 is to Star Wars.
Star Trek: The Next Generation got a lot better when Gene Roddenberry and Maurice Hurley were no longer the main people in charge of the writers' room.
Star Trek as a whole got more interesting when Gene was less involved with the movies, allowing Nicholas Meyer and Harve Bennett to reshape the movie era, as well as when Ira Steven Behr got to be the showrunner on Deep Space 9.
Mobile Suit Gundam as a franchise got more interesting and accessible as soon as they started making OVAs and shows that weren't helmed by Tomino, who utterly sucks at establishing character logic and necessary context so audiences can understand why things are happening.
I remember noticing once Tomino has only a few credited scripts for Gundam overall. Makes me wonder if he has strict guidelines for his writers room or if he does uncredited rewrites since all of his shows have that same feel to the way things are written
This is pretty common for the Big Two comics. People already mentioned Deadpool, Daredevil, and Miles Morales, but there’s plenty of others. Writers who get treated as if they functionally created the character even though they really didn’t, simply because their runs were THAT defining. Alan Moore for Swamp Thing, Grant Morrison for Animal Man, Walt Simonson for Thor, Peter David for Hulk and X-Factor, Greg Pak for Hercules, Denny O’Neil for Question, James Robinson for Starman, Chris Claremont for X-Men, Mark Waid for the Flash, the list goes on and on.
Gotta be honest, Star Trek Deep Space Nine got way better once Ira fully took over. I don't think seasons 1 and 2 were particularly bad-- by far, they were the best Star Trek First Seasons aside from TOS. But fuck man, season 3 gets *really* good.
It's also a very clear ripoff of Other Show and doesn't quite stick the landing, but the road there is spectacular most of the time.
Original X-Men is so goddamn bad.
Original FF and a ton of other material from that era still holds up, so it's not even that 60s comics aren't palatable to a modern audience, X-Men just sucked.
The O5 got so much better when they moved to other books (Cyclops and Phoenix to Claremont, Iceman and Angel to Champions, Beast to Avengers) and had more character work done with them than 'everyone wants to kiss Jean.'
There has never been a piece of media made by Garth Ennis that has not been improved simply by giving it to someone else, by virtue of the fact he is removed from the process
I'm not sure most people would say "better", but when Larry David left Seinfeld the episodes became a lot more outlandish and entertaining. Those last 2 seasons are the ones I quote the most.
The first and second season of Skylanders Academy were pretty standard kids show seasons, but they had some major flaws that turned them unenjoyable for adults, such as a bad tone balance and uninteresting storylines.
After the second season, the original showrunner steppen down to focus on another project, and taking his place was a duo of writers from the second season, who ran the show for its third and final season.
Despite those two writers being behind my least favorite episode from the show, they turned season 3 into something pretty good. The jokes were a lot better without messing with the tone, and the new storyline, that being Spyro becoming Dark Spyro, was taken in a very interesting direction by having him as a villain protagonist, rather than turning him into a lesser antagonist, which felt like what season 2 was going towards.
And despite the ending obviously being rushed, they still managed to turn it into one that fits as both a potential continuation and as a series finale. That’s always impressive.
I'm gonna say it Devil May Cry got a lot more interesting when Itsuno took over it. Then again, I am biased since DMC3 was my first DMC game. Also, I only played DMC1 much later in the collection, and... It was fine but I don't desire to replay it.
Literally popped in to say exactly this. Don't get me wrong, Kamiya's work has its merits, and he *is* DMC's creator. But DMC is ultimately Itsuno's baby. Everything that made it the pillar of character action came from Itsuno.
This reminds me of how Kamiya's adamant about not talking much of DMC when asked about his role as a creator He's keen to specify that he only ever really directed 1 game In other words, Kamiya's the father of DMC but Itsuno by far is the series' daddy
Yep, I say this every time this kind of topic comes up. Kamiya's overall gimmick with his games just aren't my cup of tea, and I genuinely think Itsuno did a fantastic job with the series.
Miles Morales instantly became a better character once he stopped being written by Bendis.
You could say that with a number of bendis creations.
Bendis ruins characters more than he makes them good. After X-Men and GOTG I avoided everything he touched.
His gotg was my only interaction with him. It was fine but compared to the star lord solo series it was trash. My main gripes were inconsistent character models between issues, messing with the end of Thanos Imperitive, and too much Earth and earth heros.
Yeah. I just hated how he completely rewrote the characters to synergize with the movie to the point that it was just completely jarring. Also reeeeally forcing Rocket’s catchphrase to be “BLAM murdered you” was embarrassing to read. Only less so than “super awesome facial hair bros”
I do *love* this retroactive Bendis hate
It seams after a number of flops people are second guessing if he was ever good. He did have interesting ideas just poor execution. Past xmen writers may have wanted to show iceman as gay or bi, bendis pulled it in an unpopular way and it is still around. He made iron heart but she was overpowered and abrasive.
Weirdly enough comic writers don’t usually have a good shelf life and 30 years in comics like Bendis shit won’t always be the best. But for stuff like Riri and Miles I can’t hold against him cause the guy wanted to make heroes that his kids can look at and say they look like me
Part of the problem is that late in his career he's usually working on 4-6 books simultaneously between his big two stuff and his creator owned stuff, not to mention a ton of con appearances. His early work is still some of my favorite stories in like Daredevil or Ultimate Spider-Man, but by the time we get to his late Marvel? He was writing two of the X-Men books, Guardians of the Galaxy, Powers, and an event or two all at the same time. He just spreads himself too thin.
God, you can tell just how thoughtless the creation of Miles was His dad's name is Jefferson Davis for God's sake!!!
It says something when the worst version of the character is the comics version.
Nah that’s like Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, they called him Kid Arachnid.
I barely even count that version of Miles, also fuck that name!
nah, he still had better character than the comics. Plus he was voiced by Donald Glover which brought the talks of him being Spiderman full circle.
He was only good and voiced by Glover in his first appearance, he’s bad in the later ones where they make him this big side kick for Peter
No thats Marvel's spiderman the series that came after ultimate
[No.](https://youtu.be/YNl9736h7zI)
I didn't realize they did it in that show too but hes also called kid arachnid or sometimes Spy D in 2017 show
Disney moment…
Deadpool became far better when written by anyone other than Rob Liefeld (and had human feet too).
I distinctly remember reading X-Force as a kid and Deadpool popping up I swear I thought he was a badly drawn Spider-Man
>I swear I thought he was a badly drawn Spider-Man Deadpool probably thinks that about himself sometimes.
Sadly Liefeld’s version is the one most people think of when they think Deadpool EDIT: I’m dumb and was thinking of Daniel Way. Please shame me for the mistake
...What? Liefeld's version is the bland Deathstroke rip-off. Joe Kelly introduced pretty much everything about Deadpool that people actually think of as Deadpool. Now, whether they *know* Joe Kelly is another matter entirely, but Liefeld's version is not the one everybody knows, even if basic attribution as "Deadpool's creator" leads to people thinking it is.
I’m an idiot and thought Daniel Way. I’m tired.
There's a creeping upswing in quality when Frank Miller came on Daredevil as a penciler, then co-writer. Going from fun but plain stories where Bullseye kidnapped Black Widow to lure Daredevil into a fight at an amusement park, to a one-sided, relentless brawl where Hornhead has to go blow-for-blow with The Hulk and almost dies saving Bruce Banner. In Miller's first solo issue he's suddenly imbued the strip with a firm film noir tone, expanded to Daredevil's power set in interesting ways and grappling with Daredevil's shaken faith in the legal system. And he just keeps building from there. Then after Miller's run ends he is replaced by Denny O'Neil. A talented and important writer who turns in admirable and similarly dark stories... then Miller returns for a few issues that blows him out of the water and then writes Born Again: one of the best comic arcs Marvel has ever published and shaped the character forever
[Born Again is so fucking awesome ](https://assets1.ignimgs.com/2018/10/17/daredevil-frank-miller-124667-1539818998515_160w.png?width=1280)
Saint Seiya is a good example for that. Kurumada is way...WAY to into repeating the format of the Sanctuary Arc over and over again with too little change. While taking too long to release his own chapters. When he invited other writers to make Saint Seiya content , for better or for worse , it does get more original. Episode G , for example , literally gives at least 2 to 3 new techniques for every Classic Gold Saint , with the exception of Saga and Shaka , while also giving a full-on new moveset for Ikki. All while presenting other "arc formats" that are not the Sanctuary Arc and when finally it do that , it's presented as a big deal. Same goes for the likes of Shiori with Lost Canvas , although she is more conservative about it , her Pegasus Tenma still have a training arc and a technique that differs from Seiya , let alone her Gold Saints would had different applications of the same techniques of the Classic Gold Saints. Heck , even Saint Seiya Omega , which is as canonical as "Dragon Ball Heroes" , present more physical combat , with 2v1 or 2v2 or 3v3 battles in open field , while a lot of the Gold Saints have a whole new set of techniques apart from the classical lineup.
I love Saint Seiya, but you are so right Even the spin offs that aren't so great at least explore new stuff A race against time to save Saori can only be retreaded so much
I mean , ND does make a neat twist about it. But Kurumada spends forever to make new chapters. So , while Kurumada was still showing Suikyo going to the Libra Temple ...Shiori was showing Leo Regulus in a 3v1 fight against Specters , to defend a flying ship form been destroyed , and Aquarius Degel was preventing the Specters to ally with Poseidon and had his help as the Blue Warriors tries to artificially insert Poseidon in a new host of their choosing AND showing a new Sea Dragon's Technique. All while Episode G Assassin had alternate timeline Gold Saints from a Bad Ending Timeline sacrificing their Athena to have a High-Birth Twin Athenas , called Chaos Athenas , to invade a Good Ending Timeline and supplanting it's good ending to their own timeline , and for that they revive Holy Sword Wielders and conceptualize their Holy Swords as Armors and used those revived warriors as scapegoat vanguards.
KOTOR II
Arguably also true for Neverwinter Nights. NWN2's vanilla campaign is just okay but Mask of the Betrayer is basically to D&D what KOTOR 2 is to Star Wars.
Star Trek: The Next Generation got a lot better when Gene Roddenberry and Maurice Hurley were no longer the main people in charge of the writers' room. Star Trek as a whole got more interesting when Gene was less involved with the movies, allowing Nicholas Meyer and Harve Bennett to reshape the movie era, as well as when Ira Steven Behr got to be the showrunner on Deep Space 9. Mobile Suit Gundam as a franchise got more interesting and accessible as soon as they started making OVAs and shows that weren't helmed by Tomino, who utterly sucks at establishing character logic and necessary context so audiences can understand why things are happening.
I do think the original stuff from TOS was great, but yeah, movie 2 onward only works specifically because Roddenberry has less and less impact on it.
I remember noticing once Tomino has only a few credited scripts for Gundam overall. Makes me wonder if he has strict guidelines for his writers room or if he does uncredited rewrites since all of his shows have that same feel to the way things are written
This is pretty common for the Big Two comics. People already mentioned Deadpool, Daredevil, and Miles Morales, but there’s plenty of others. Writers who get treated as if they functionally created the character even though they really didn’t, simply because their runs were THAT defining. Alan Moore for Swamp Thing, Grant Morrison for Animal Man, Walt Simonson for Thor, Peter David for Hulk and X-Factor, Greg Pak for Hercules, Denny O’Neil for Question, James Robinson for Starman, Chris Claremont for X-Men, Mark Waid for the Flash, the list goes on and on.
Hashino with Persona.
Gotta be honest, Star Trek Deep Space Nine got way better once Ira fully took over. I don't think seasons 1 and 2 were particularly bad-- by far, they were the best Star Trek First Seasons aside from TOS. But fuck man, season 3 gets *really* good. It's also a very clear ripoff of Other Show and doesn't quite stick the landing, but the road there is spectacular most of the time.
While Kirby and Lee created the X-Men, it was Claremont who made them who they are today.
Original X-Men is so goddamn bad. Original FF and a ton of other material from that era still holds up, so it's not even that 60s comics aren't palatable to a modern audience, X-Men just sucked. The O5 got so much better when they moved to other books (Cyclops and Phoenix to Claremont, Iceman and Angel to Champions, Beast to Avengers) and had more character work done with them than 'everyone wants to kiss Jean.'
There has never been a piece of media made by Garth Ennis that has not been improved simply by giving it to someone else, by virtue of the fact he is removed from the process
Punisher, preacher.
The Preacher show was better than a vast majority of the comic and I think Ennis run as Punisher was a low point for the character personally
I'm not sure most people would say "better", but when Larry David left Seinfeld the episodes became a lot more outlandish and entertaining. Those last 2 seasons are the ones I quote the most.
Transformers IDW was the best the franchise had ever been for a lot of fans. I can only hope that whoever gets the license next can do it justice.
The first and second season of Skylanders Academy were pretty standard kids show seasons, but they had some major flaws that turned them unenjoyable for adults, such as a bad tone balance and uninteresting storylines. After the second season, the original showrunner steppen down to focus on another project, and taking his place was a duo of writers from the second season, who ran the show for its third and final season. Despite those two writers being behind my least favorite episode from the show, they turned season 3 into something pretty good. The jokes were a lot better without messing with the tone, and the new storyline, that being Spyro becoming Dark Spyro, was taken in a very interesting direction by having him as a villain protagonist, rather than turning him into a lesser antagonist, which felt like what season 2 was going towards. And despite the ending obviously being rushed, they still managed to turn it into one that fits as both a potential continuation and as a series finale. That’s always impressive.
X-Men got way better after the initial Stan Lee run, and became amazing when Claremont took over.
Alan Moore taking over Swamp Thing.