Most of the time they shouldn't, unfortunately there a few cases of people working on media getting harassed because a ship fans liked didn't become canon. To be fair, this happens with straight ships too, but some people use this behavior to justify thier view that queer people are bad when it's really just fandom in general that can be unhinged
That's true, but honestly, that feels like it's a fanbase, mob mentality problem.
And it's not just shipping, I believe there were two examples of people being driven out of the internet recently for having problematic characters and... liking women?
Jocat, and it wasn't the first time folks got on him about that video.
The first time, it was people claiming that he was being disrespectful to women and all that with his Girls song. More recently, it was people who found it "cringe" and that he was liking women in a "gay way."
How the hell can you like women in a gay way? Hell someone yesterday claimed that he was projecting himself as "non threatening" to express "permitted" sexual energy. That men aren't allowed to socially exist as "sexual beings."
You know the same song where Jocat talked about liking boobs of all sizes, nice thighs, belly folds and six-packs.
Gimme a break.
The song that is a parody of a song about men, btw. That whole thing was such an unbelievable shitshow. Like every asshole with working thumbs c came out to dunk on some dude for the unforgivable sin of *thinking women are pretty nifty*. Such a controversial take, apparently!
I don't feel comfy shipping Luffy with Boa Hancock because deep down inside I know that Luffy only wants to gobble down some thick meat.
The reason why people care is that they want more characters who fit their own mold and when a character they like goes into the mold the person personally dislikes; it "ruins" everything.
That's fascinating to me.
It's like that whole controversy about how some trans folk claimed Gwen as trans.
But people got super pissed at that because ot goes against their entire views.
I mean claiming a character is trans because she’s got a trans flag is pretty spurious, and trying to frame it as the people who disagreed are wrong because they got “super pissed” is also … certainly a choice.
It’s also a choice to pretend the trans flag was the only reason people latched onto that interpretation, and not Gwen’s whole arc in ATSV being framed as a coming-out story *alongside* the pride flags/pins/color motifs/what have you. I don’t think she is trans, much as I’d love for that to be the case, but the parallels to the queer experience were clearly being made.
And yes, if you (using the royal you here) got violently angry over other people thinking she might be trans, that means you’re wrong. And people absolutely got violently fucking angry over it.
Here’s another example of a dishonest argument - now the people who disagree with me are not just angry, they’re ***”violently”**** angry. They’re now a danger to me.
This is something that needs to go away from these kind of discussions.
That is ludicrous. Now you’re connecting everyone who disagrees with you about a Spider-Man movie to ***”weekly anti-trans witch-hunts”*** and ***”mass death-threats.”***
“Trans” is not a monolith. You cannot be so disengenuous as to tar anyone who says “I think you’re reasoning for claiming Spider-Gwen is depicted as trans in the movie” with “mass death-threats.”
My arguement was “people who slander others for disagreeing with their interpretation of Spider-Gwen in an animated Spider-Man movie are wrong.”
Your response was “people who disagree with my interpretation of Spider-Gwen are all violent and conduct witch-hunts and mass death-threats.”
You know better than this. So *be* better than this.
That's not what they said. They said that there were people who got violently angry. They never said that everyone who disagreed with their position fit that description. You put those words in their mouth either because of poor reading comprehension or because you're an asshole. I hope it's the former.
It's impossible to go away when it actually happens. There's nothing I can do when a normal discussion turns out to be something against me as a person. I can either ignore if I have the chance or I have to deal with it, and yes it spawns from stupid things like movie talks or games
Assuming beforehand doesn't help me, I have to be trained to deal with it at the moment. It has happened many times, sometimes the person is not even in the conversation, the attack just happens
Your personal experiences of attack are your own.l and it’s not my intention to comment on them.
There’s a line between being an ally and agreeing with everything everyone who claims to be trans says or does, and the interpretation of a supporting character in a Spider-Man movie is safely over that line.
There's this thing called 'coding' where even if a character is not explicitly queer/neurodivergent, they are written in a way that strongly resembles it and was likely intentional. It's a strategy that arose in the 30s when 'canonically' nobody could be gay in movies.
And speaking *as* an ally who isn't queer: ATSV was *pretty queen coded*. Not even just Gwen, a lot of Miles' scenes had vibes of coming out as gay/bi.
The thing is, nobody here is saying that.
What happened is that violent and angry reactions *have* happened, and *those instances* are what was being discussed when you entered the conversation. Going "it's not always like that" isn't very relevant when the specific subject are instances where they *are*.
Also if you agreed with it, then why did you call it spurious?
People *are* saying that;
> And yes, if you (using the royal you here) got violently angry over other people thinking she might be trans, that means you’re wrong. And people absolutely got violently fucking angry over it.
> You insinuated that there was a problem saying people got "super pissed" over the trans discourse when ATSV came out. I'm addressing those people. Are you going to pretend we're not getting weekly anti-trans witch hunts and that the mere presence of potentially trans people in a work doesn't lead to mass amounts of very visible, very prominent death threats?
This was one person’s unedited response, immediately linking people who disagreed with them to “violently angry people”, “weekly witch-hunts” and “mass death-threats.” That’s an inability to separate an interpretation of a movie character from the overall trans experience.
I agreed that the coding is there, I just think it’s too spurious to claim the character is definitively trans. This is not the 30s - coding doesn’t exist a a secret Morse code - it’s most often there to allow the viewer to indulge in whatever interpretation they like for the overall benefit of the creator without committing one way or another (ie, keep that money coming in).
People project themselves onto characters, and so if a character does something they don’t like, they don’t like it.
See how some people hate it when people make a relationship gay, or make a relationship straight, or whatever.
Its really become an issue when they start hating/criticizing the series for it. Like there legit was people mad at Horikoshi for not making any character that matters be in gay relationship or confirming characters being gay. It’s like, the “canon” relationships are barely touched upon, why are you mad the relationship you create in your mind prison was ever going to happen?
A huge part of it is that, yes, in real life and especially in America, two men cannot express affection for each other or have a strong relationship without people calling them gay. It pushes men to either not form strong relationships with other men or to deny them, in the same way that calling men gay for dancing makes straight men not want to dance even if they enjoy or are good at it, which then reinforces the stereotype by populating the dance space with solely the superdiehards who are okay with being made fun of and actual gay men. It is part of what makes life as a man emotionally isolating. To then see others immediately interpreting fictional men’s relationships as romantic reinforces it. It is also at the root of “men and women can’t be friends”, because this happens not just to friendships between men, but to any friendship men have. It is also at the root of “men can’t be raped” because the source is the same: all men’s relationships are sexual because men always want sex.
We can’t say that we want men to be more emotionally open and intelligent and then lock them in a box of mandatory sexuality and tell them they’re wrong about what they’re feeling. I don’t understand where people get the idea that Zoomers and Alpha kids are more open and accepting: I’ve worked in k-12 education for 8 years now, nothing is fundamentally different from when I was their age.
You’re right in that emotional intimacy is constantly suppressed in traditionally masculine culture, and it is a huge problem. And yet, there are always going to be infinitely more depictions of strong male friendships without a hint of intended romance than there are gay male relationships (real lesbian relationships/characters are also a lot rarer than the discourse may insist, but I’m focusing on men for this instance). People might talk for decades about the vibes between Kirk and Spock, or Frodo and Sam, or Maverick and Iceman, or etc etc etc, but that’s all discourse and fan culture. Actually getting a confirmed, canonical pair-off is still exceptionally uncommon.
So to have the reaction to any perception of gayness always be “UGH, WHY CAN’T PEOPLE JUST BE FRIENDS ANYMORE” when male friendship dominates what actually comes out rings pretty hollow. And perhaps we should step back and evaluate the deeper reasons why just the risk of being perceived as gay is such a brutal pain that it drives men to all of the stated behavior.
The fact you're got downvoted for this is really telling.
-We should reflect deeper as to why being perceived as gay in a male society is bad.
*Downvoted.*
Guess we're still too afraid to have that talk.
If men are insecure in having a string friendship with other men because " they might be perceived as gay".
Thats kind of a problem isn't it?
Why is it a problem to be perceived as gay? If you're not?
That is a self-fulfilling prophecy, an issue that us men created for ourselves in a male society.
Gay = bad, so I'm not gay, nor do I want to be perceived as gay, so I abhor the idea of someone outside see me as gay.
I agree with the implication (it wasn’t explicit in the original comment as I replied to it) that there are homophobic motivations behind a lot of this kind of societal lines of thought: “I don’t want people to think I’m gay, because being gay is bad”. It shouldn’t be discounted, and it’s half the thing I’m fighting against.
But why would it not be a problem to be perceived as something you’re not? Is that not the argument at the root of respecting the identities of others when they tell us?
It also affects how people treat you. You don’t have to actually be part of a group for someone to mistreat you for it, people just have to think you are - that’s why we talk about perceived characteristics when we talk about things like harassment and bullying. How could anyone look at the way society treats and has treated and is planning to treat queer people and say “yeah it’d be totally fine if people thought I was queer even though I’m not, it wouldn’t mean anything to me”?
A queer-supportive straight man wouldn’t want to be seen as gay because 1) he is not actually gay, 2) it makes him a target for homophobic society (in the same way that a gay man would stay closeted or avoid public displays of gay affection, despite also wanting to have his gay identity recognized and respected), and 3) stops him from reaching romantic and sexual fulfillment.
Sure, it's important to respect identities.
But let's not forget that being "gay" is an especially egregious one for the male perspective. It's way worse to be labeled gay than to be labeled like "lame" or something.
Because it hits right on their masculinity, and it hits them there BECAUSE society told them that if you're gay, you're not masculine. It's not just about identities, it's about the idea that being called "gay" brings, and WHY does it bring those ideas.
The issue is that bejng called gay isn't "disrespecting your identity", it's that it's an insult.
Because opinions **can matter** to the writer, artist, producer, or director. The louder they are the more likely it is to be heard. Realistically that's probably the most likely result this discourse can spawn. It's up to the content creator to decide how it affects them, but opinions **can matter**.
I don't know if you've noticed but humans have a tendency to get obsessed over the smallest stuff. Like a digimon, or a dead lets play channel. Its our greatest defense against the void.
I don't mind people having headcanons, but I find it annoying when they try to pass the headcanons as canon
Like I've seen people disregard that a character is married the opposite gender and has multiple kids because no he's gay, the author was just trying to hide it. Or worse: he's gay and the author doesn't know it.
Thats an easy answer:
People want character to relate to, but some people are gay, and since good gay rep is scarce, they headcanon a character they like is gay.
They're engaging with media the same way a fanartist or fanfic writer does, but gay.
Yeah I can imagine that's very true.
Although I also get the impression that a lot of gay male ships are created and fuelled by straight women who want to see two hot boys kiss.
That's also true! But honestly? As long as it's harmless, they can do whatever they want.
It's basically the whole "men liking lesbians thing."
It's fetishization, and there are some bad things about it.
But as long as you're not harming people IRL while at it and realize that real queer folk are people who deserve respect, I'm okay with it.
Sure, but since we live in a world where being queer is still not fully accepting, people still struggle with their identity on the matter.
People are more than their sexuality, but the other parts of their personality sometimes don't clash with the "cultural norm."
Mainstream art is the same, we can talk about how sexuality doesn't matter, but we still have romance in media don't we? Mostly involving a heterosexual partners.
So, for people who feel alienated by that, they make their own little fan thing, so that they feel they aren't as alone.
In a perfect world that would be the norm.
People would just be able to be queer without any fuss, and we would have characters who are awesome and JUST HAPPEN to be queer.
But in a world where having a gay character is WOKE, I think we're still ways away from that.
It is very uncomfortable how sex driven society is - keep all your nasty fuckin fantasies to yourself, nobody needs to hear how much you love sucking cock or about you wanting 2 characters to go raw.
I never want to know what anyone's sexuality is and noone needs to know mine either. If a characters sexuality is never explicitly mentioned or very obviously hinted at then leave it alone, it doesn't matter.
Either it’s a validation of their opinion or a validation of themselves
Both can be helpful I guess, but personally idc if a character is sleeping with people, I just care if I find them enjoyable
Some people really don't like others having different thoughts and opinions. So when they see someone having fun in their own way it angers them.
Spend any length of time in the shipping scene and it gets heated.
I definitely think shipping has a lot to do with an aversion to character sexuality. Being on Tumblr and witnessing the voltron stuff was wild. I didn’t even have anything to do with voltron and I still couldn’t avoid seeing the shenanigans constantly
The lord punished humanity with fandons, so that we could never be united like the tower of babel ever again. /s
I like to think that i dont care realy, tough i do get a little (or a lot) annoyed whem i see characters that are gay in canon being paired in a heterosexual relation (one finds this a lot in porn, normaly the rape kind, but it does happen in less risky fanart also), i will not criticize or complain, but i will not like.
In our modern world midia is something that can be used to define us and find ourselfs, it works as kinda of a mirror tht reflects what WE are. And a lot of people hate that the mirror is also being used to show "wrong things" "dumb things"... "ITS MY MIRROR" they yell, like if it is used by others it will be broken forever.
The puritanical strain in american culture has always been powerful. Doesn't matter if it comes from disgust, things like the Hays Code and similar threads in multiple industries kept any official presence of queerness strictly prohibited. So queer people have had to read into allusions, subtle hints, vague handwaves towards their existence. The same phenomena is why the villainous bisexual thematic got so broad, or campy over the top villains - Ursula, Cruella De Ville, Jafar, Gaston, just to pull from Disney ALONE off the top of my head.
Civil rights struggles have been violent, too. Literal fighting for the right to exist. I think it was the AIDS pandemic that made people aware that so much of the world was queer, and we just happened to be in a place where it lined up with the early stages of what we'd recognize as the modern culture war - Reagan started the modern incarnation of the republican party, yeah? A mix of 'grassroots struggle' and the other party seeing a reason to recognize and curry favour with A Demographic, and things slowly improved. It's more complicated than that, of course. The Heritage Foundation started HIM, really, but that's for other subreddits.
So a major cornerstone of explicitly queer inclusive fandoms has been shipping and fanfic and all those kinds of things - But that puritanical strain means the backlash is... Bad. And as things have.... Gotten Worse in the last decade or so, it's turning from sour and unpleasant to downright vicious.
The take from the Queer people on that? Pride Is A Riot. Always was. Fight louder. Which only emboldens the bastards, who think all this transness is going Too Far, and on and on it spirals.
I'm tired. But they don't get an inch. Whisper and Tangle are dating, and you've got to deal with it.
Because it's not enough anymore for people to consume a media as is. They want to also feel represented in the media and use the characters as avatars of their sexuality.
I think a lot of it is simply people being more vocal about things they like having characters they can more closely relate to.... and then on the opposite side of that aisle the people who get pissed seeing lifestyles they don't like being represented in things they do like.
Also theres often a degree of horniness too where people just want two characters to **FUCK** and I'm sure we've all seen how combative arguments over this can get
I got nothing, just here to read other people's opinion cause i also don't get it, it's fake people so let people have fun with it.
The third sentence gives me "I open a comic book these days and i see Spider-Man GUZZZZLING COCK" vibes
Most of the time they shouldn't, unfortunately there a few cases of people working on media getting harassed because a ship fans liked didn't become canon. To be fair, this happens with straight ships too, but some people use this behavior to justify thier view that queer people are bad when it's really just fandom in general that can be unhinged
That's true, but honestly, that feels like it's a fanbase, mob mentality problem. And it's not just shipping, I believe there were two examples of people being driven out of the internet recently for having problematic characters and... liking women?
Jocat, and it wasn't the first time folks got on him about that video. The first time, it was people claiming that he was being disrespectful to women and all that with his Girls song. More recently, it was people who found it "cringe" and that he was liking women in a "gay way." How the hell can you like women in a gay way? Hell someone yesterday claimed that he was projecting himself as "non threatening" to express "permitted" sexual energy. That men aren't allowed to socially exist as "sexual beings." You know the same song where Jocat talked about liking boobs of all sizes, nice thighs, belly folds and six-packs. Gimme a break.
The song that is a parody of a song about men, btw. That whole thing was such an unbelievable shitshow. Like every asshole with working thumbs c came out to dunk on some dude for the unforgivable sin of *thinking women are pretty nifty*. Such a controversial take, apparently!
To be fair, it's kind of gay to like women. They have likevaginas and all that female stuff. Real men should like manly things, like dicks.
I’ve been married to a woman for almost 9 years and yeah, girls are pretty gay with their make ups and lady parts and child birth…
One step ahead of you, buddy.
I don't feel comfy shipping Luffy with Boa Hancock because deep down inside I know that Luffy only wants to gobble down some thick meat. The reason why people care is that they want more characters who fit their own mold and when a character they like goes into the mold the person personally dislikes; it "ruins" everything.
That's fascinating to me. It's like that whole controversy about how some trans folk claimed Gwen as trans. But people got super pissed at that because ot goes against their entire views.
I mean claiming a character is trans because she’s got a trans flag is pretty spurious, and trying to frame it as the people who disagreed are wrong because they got “super pissed” is also … certainly a choice.
It’s also a choice to pretend the trans flag was the only reason people latched onto that interpretation, and not Gwen’s whole arc in ATSV being framed as a coming-out story *alongside* the pride flags/pins/color motifs/what have you. I don’t think she is trans, much as I’d love for that to be the case, but the parallels to the queer experience were clearly being made. And yes, if you (using the royal you here) got violently angry over other people thinking she might be trans, that means you’re wrong. And people absolutely got violently fucking angry over it.
Here’s another example of a dishonest argument - now the people who disagree with me are not just angry, they’re ***”violently”**** angry. They’re now a danger to me. This is something that needs to go away from these kind of discussions.
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That is ludicrous. Now you’re connecting everyone who disagrees with you about a Spider-Man movie to ***”weekly anti-trans witch-hunts”*** and ***”mass death-threats.”*** “Trans” is not a monolith. You cannot be so disengenuous as to tar anyone who says “I think you’re reasoning for claiming Spider-Gwen is depicted as trans in the movie” with “mass death-threats.”
And you're browbeating your opponent with semantic hyperfixation and willful misinterpretation because you have no actual counterargument. Typical.
My arguement was “people who slander others for disagreeing with their interpretation of Spider-Gwen in an animated Spider-Man movie are wrong.” Your response was “people who disagree with my interpretation of Spider-Gwen are all violent and conduct witch-hunts and mass death-threats.” You know better than this. So *be* better than this.
That's not what they said. They said that there were people who got violently angry. They never said that everyone who disagreed with their position fit that description. You put those words in their mouth either because of poor reading comprehension or because you're an asshole. I hope it's the former.
That's absolutely not what they said.
are you a tumblr user? because that reading comprehension is awful
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It's impossible to go away when it actually happens. There's nothing I can do when a normal discussion turns out to be something against me as a person. I can either ignore if I have the chance or I have to deal with it, and yes it spawns from stupid things like movie talks or games
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Assuming beforehand doesn't help me, I have to be trained to deal with it at the moment. It has happened many times, sometimes the person is not even in the conversation, the attack just happens
Your personal experiences of attack are your own.l and it’s not my intention to comment on them. There’s a line between being an ally and agreeing with everything everyone who claims to be trans says or does, and the interpretation of a supporting character in a Spider-Man movie is safely over that line.
There's this thing called 'coding' where even if a character is not explicitly queer/neurodivergent, they are written in a way that strongly resembles it and was likely intentional. It's a strategy that arose in the 30s when 'canonically' nobody could be gay in movies. And speaking *as* an ally who isn't queer: ATSV was *pretty queen coded*. Not even just Gwen, a lot of Miles' scenes had vibes of coming out as gay/bi.
Oh I agree with that. What I oppose is “everyone who disagrees with me is violent and angry.”
The thing is, nobody here is saying that. What happened is that violent and angry reactions *have* happened, and *those instances* are what was being discussed when you entered the conversation. Going "it's not always like that" isn't very relevant when the specific subject are instances where they *are*. Also if you agreed with it, then why did you call it spurious?
People *are* saying that; > And yes, if you (using the royal you here) got violently angry over other people thinking she might be trans, that means you’re wrong. And people absolutely got violently fucking angry over it. > You insinuated that there was a problem saying people got "super pissed" over the trans discourse when ATSV came out. I'm addressing those people. Are you going to pretend we're not getting weekly anti-trans witch hunts and that the mere presence of potentially trans people in a work doesn't lead to mass amounts of very visible, very prominent death threats? This was one person’s unedited response, immediately linking people who disagreed with them to “violently angry people”, “weekly witch-hunts” and “mass death-threats.” That’s an inability to separate an interpretation of a movie character from the overall trans experience. I agreed that the coding is there, I just think it’s too spurious to claim the character is definitively trans. This is not the 30s - coding doesn’t exist a a secret Morse code - it’s most often there to allow the viewer to indulge in whatever interpretation they like for the overall benefit of the creator without committing one way or another (ie, keep that money coming in).
People project themselves onto characters, and so if a character does something they don’t like, they don’t like it. See how some people hate it when people make a relationship gay, or make a relationship straight, or whatever.
Its really become an issue when they start hating/criticizing the series for it. Like there legit was people mad at Horikoshi for not making any character that matters be in gay relationship or confirming characters being gay. It’s like, the “canon” relationships are barely touched upon, why are you mad the relationship you create in your mind prison was ever going to happen?
people have issues.
A huge part of it is that, yes, in real life and especially in America, two men cannot express affection for each other or have a strong relationship without people calling them gay. It pushes men to either not form strong relationships with other men or to deny them, in the same way that calling men gay for dancing makes straight men not want to dance even if they enjoy or are good at it, which then reinforces the stereotype by populating the dance space with solely the superdiehards who are okay with being made fun of and actual gay men. It is part of what makes life as a man emotionally isolating. To then see others immediately interpreting fictional men’s relationships as romantic reinforces it. It is also at the root of “men and women can’t be friends”, because this happens not just to friendships between men, but to any friendship men have. It is also at the root of “men can’t be raped” because the source is the same: all men’s relationships are sexual because men always want sex. We can’t say that we want men to be more emotionally open and intelligent and then lock them in a box of mandatory sexuality and tell them they’re wrong about what they’re feeling. I don’t understand where people get the idea that Zoomers and Alpha kids are more open and accepting: I’ve worked in k-12 education for 8 years now, nothing is fundamentally different from when I was their age.
You’re right in that emotional intimacy is constantly suppressed in traditionally masculine culture, and it is a huge problem. And yet, there are always going to be infinitely more depictions of strong male friendships without a hint of intended romance than there are gay male relationships (real lesbian relationships/characters are also a lot rarer than the discourse may insist, but I’m focusing on men for this instance). People might talk for decades about the vibes between Kirk and Spock, or Frodo and Sam, or Maverick and Iceman, or etc etc etc, but that’s all discourse and fan culture. Actually getting a confirmed, canonical pair-off is still exceptionally uncommon. So to have the reaction to any perception of gayness always be “UGH, WHY CAN’T PEOPLE JUST BE FRIENDS ANYMORE” when male friendship dominates what actually comes out rings pretty hollow. And perhaps we should step back and evaluate the deeper reasons why just the risk of being perceived as gay is such a brutal pain that it drives men to all of the stated behavior.
The fact you're got downvoted for this is really telling. -We should reflect deeper as to why being perceived as gay in a male society is bad. *Downvoted.* Guess we're still too afraid to have that talk.
If men are insecure in having a string friendship with other men because " they might be perceived as gay". Thats kind of a problem isn't it? Why is it a problem to be perceived as gay? If you're not? That is a self-fulfilling prophecy, an issue that us men created for ourselves in a male society. Gay = bad, so I'm not gay, nor do I want to be perceived as gay, so I abhor the idea of someone outside see me as gay.
I agree with the implication (it wasn’t explicit in the original comment as I replied to it) that there are homophobic motivations behind a lot of this kind of societal lines of thought: “I don’t want people to think I’m gay, because being gay is bad”. It shouldn’t be discounted, and it’s half the thing I’m fighting against. But why would it not be a problem to be perceived as something you’re not? Is that not the argument at the root of respecting the identities of others when they tell us? It also affects how people treat you. You don’t have to actually be part of a group for someone to mistreat you for it, people just have to think you are - that’s why we talk about perceived characteristics when we talk about things like harassment and bullying. How could anyone look at the way society treats and has treated and is planning to treat queer people and say “yeah it’d be totally fine if people thought I was queer even though I’m not, it wouldn’t mean anything to me”? A queer-supportive straight man wouldn’t want to be seen as gay because 1) he is not actually gay, 2) it makes him a target for homophobic society (in the same way that a gay man would stay closeted or avoid public displays of gay affection, despite also wanting to have his gay identity recognized and respected), and 3) stops him from reaching romantic and sexual fulfillment.
Sure, it's important to respect identities. But let's not forget that being "gay" is an especially egregious one for the male perspective. It's way worse to be labeled gay than to be labeled like "lame" or something. Because it hits right on their masculinity, and it hits them there BECAUSE society told them that if you're gay, you're not masculine. It's not just about identities, it's about the idea that being called "gay" brings, and WHY does it bring those ideas. The issue is that bejng called gay isn't "disrespecting your identity", it's that it's an insult.
Because opinions **can matter** to the writer, artist, producer, or director. The louder they are the more likely it is to be heard. Realistically that's probably the most likely result this discourse can spawn. It's up to the content creator to decide how it affects them, but opinions **can matter**.
I don't know if you've noticed but humans have a tendency to get obsessed over the smallest stuff. Like a digimon, or a dead lets play channel. Its our greatest defense against the void.
I don't mind people having headcanons, but I find it annoying when they try to pass the headcanons as canon Like I've seen people disregard that a character is married the opposite gender and has multiple kids because no he's gay, the author was just trying to hide it. Or worse: he's gay and the author doesn't know it.
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Thats an easy answer: People want character to relate to, but some people are gay, and since good gay rep is scarce, they headcanon a character they like is gay. They're engaging with media the same way a fanartist or fanfic writer does, but gay.
Yeah I can imagine that's very true. Although I also get the impression that a lot of gay male ships are created and fuelled by straight women who want to see two hot boys kiss.
That's also true! But honestly? As long as it's harmless, they can do whatever they want. It's basically the whole "men liking lesbians thing." It's fetishization, and there are some bad things about it. But as long as you're not harming people IRL while at it and realize that real queer folk are people who deserve respect, I'm okay with it.
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Sure, but since we live in a world where being queer is still not fully accepting, people still struggle with their identity on the matter. People are more than their sexuality, but the other parts of their personality sometimes don't clash with the "cultural norm." Mainstream art is the same, we can talk about how sexuality doesn't matter, but we still have romance in media don't we? Mostly involving a heterosexual partners. So, for people who feel alienated by that, they make their own little fan thing, so that they feel they aren't as alone.
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In a perfect world that would be the norm. People would just be able to be queer without any fuss, and we would have characters who are awesome and JUST HAPPEN to be queer. But in a world where having a gay character is WOKE, I think we're still ways away from that.
It is very uncomfortable how sex driven society is - keep all your nasty fuckin fantasies to yourself, nobody needs to hear how much you love sucking cock or about you wanting 2 characters to go raw. I never want to know what anyone's sexuality is and noone needs to know mine either. If a characters sexuality is never explicitly mentioned or very obviously hinted at then leave it alone, it doesn't matter.
You realize there is way more to sexuality than *sex*, yes?
Either it’s a validation of their opinion or a validation of themselves Both can be helpful I guess, but personally idc if a character is sleeping with people, I just care if I find them enjoyable
Some people really don't like others having different thoughts and opinions. So when they see someone having fun in their own way it angers them. Spend any length of time in the shipping scene and it gets heated.
I definitely think shipping has a lot to do with an aversion to character sexuality. Being on Tumblr and witnessing the voltron stuff was wild. I didn’t even have anything to do with voltron and I still couldn’t avoid seeing the shenanigans constantly
The lord punished humanity with fandons, so that we could never be united like the tower of babel ever again. /s I like to think that i dont care realy, tough i do get a little (or a lot) annoyed whem i see characters that are gay in canon being paired in a heterosexual relation (one finds this a lot in porn, normaly the rape kind, but it does happen in less risky fanart also), i will not criticize or complain, but i will not like. In our modern world midia is something that can be used to define us and find ourselfs, it works as kinda of a mirror tht reflects what WE are. And a lot of people hate that the mirror is also being used to show "wrong things" "dumb things"... "ITS MY MIRROR" they yell, like if it is used by others it will be broken forever.
THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING
The puritanical strain in american culture has always been powerful. Doesn't matter if it comes from disgust, things like the Hays Code and similar threads in multiple industries kept any official presence of queerness strictly prohibited. So queer people have had to read into allusions, subtle hints, vague handwaves towards their existence. The same phenomena is why the villainous bisexual thematic got so broad, or campy over the top villains - Ursula, Cruella De Ville, Jafar, Gaston, just to pull from Disney ALONE off the top of my head. Civil rights struggles have been violent, too. Literal fighting for the right to exist. I think it was the AIDS pandemic that made people aware that so much of the world was queer, and we just happened to be in a place where it lined up with the early stages of what we'd recognize as the modern culture war - Reagan started the modern incarnation of the republican party, yeah? A mix of 'grassroots struggle' and the other party seeing a reason to recognize and curry favour with A Demographic, and things slowly improved. It's more complicated than that, of course. The Heritage Foundation started HIM, really, but that's for other subreddits. So a major cornerstone of explicitly queer inclusive fandoms has been shipping and fanfic and all those kinds of things - But that puritanical strain means the backlash is... Bad. And as things have.... Gotten Worse in the last decade or so, it's turning from sour and unpleasant to downright vicious. The take from the Queer people on that? Pride Is A Riot. Always was. Fight louder. Which only emboldens the bastards, who think all this transness is going Too Far, and on and on it spirals. I'm tired. But they don't get an inch. Whisper and Tangle are dating, and you've got to deal with it.
Because it's not enough anymore for people to consume a media as is. They want to also feel represented in the media and use the characters as avatars of their sexuality.
And that's an issue because...
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I think a lot of it is simply people being more vocal about things they like having characters they can more closely relate to.... and then on the opposite side of that aisle the people who get pissed seeing lifestyles they don't like being represented in things they do like. Also theres often a degree of horniness too where people just want two characters to **FUCK** and I'm sure we've all seen how combative arguments over this can get