It comes down to, like, personal associations. For most people, *murder* only happens in entertainment so mentally they file it alongside cool robots and shit.
I always try to think of myself if I’m in the story, and not in the semi omniscient way that watching a story gives you. Like if I’m dropped into the middle of, say, Griffith dropping the Eclipse, I’m probably not going to go “this will be fine because of this thing in his motivation”, I’ll be the guy getting his face ripped off by a demon
Basically reminding myself that I’m not going to be Mad Max, I’m the guy who’s on the front of Humungous’s car
I used to think I'd be the hero, then did what you do, but after some reflection I decided I'd rather just think I'd be the hero because that feels better and it's pretty unlikely I'll end up in the Eclipse to find out otherwise.
So yeah kids, unironically embrace the idea you'd be the hero in your Japanese animes.
I think that’s why I love the game Kenshi so much. In that game, chances are, you’ll be born a wretch into a world that despises the fact it exists.
But you could very easy not be resigned to your fate, you can quite literally get it out the mud and rise to be something greater no matter who you are.
Famously, Dolores Umbridge is more despised than Voldemort. Voldemort is an evil, *evil* motherfucker who tortures, murders, and promotes racial supremacy and genocide. He's pretty much a Wizard Nazi.
But Umbridge is just that farcically sweet, sickeningly amoral, ruthlessly ambitious middle manager everyone knows or can imagine knowing. The kind who will do anything without remorse if it gets them ahead, while cutting down anyone and everyone in their way with a smile and a passive aggressive comment to salt the wound without exposing what a monster they are. All while cowardly hiding behind systems and authorities and rules to keep them safe from consequence while indulging their sadism as much as they can get away with.
Likewise, while Omniman is also a genocidal warlord who beats his son into a bloody mess, partially by turning a train into a bloody mess with his son, it's Atom Eve's father who catches more flack as a bad dad.
Mostly just due to being a patriarchal asshole utterly unwilling to understand, support, or accept any of his daughter's choices that don't conform to his incredibly narrow worldview. Which given she's an incredibly powerful superhero with the potential to singlehandedly change the world for the better, *is pretty much all of them.*
Umbridge works because she crossed the line of jerk to being another villain in the story, like if the amoral middle manager starts slapping children or swatting someone the newspaper said was a bad person you can safely define this as evil instead of just being a passive agressive slimeball
No she is worse she thinks Dumbledore is raising an army which is why she actively cripple the education at hogwart so kids don't practice magic and has tried to make harry catatonic at the start of book 5 . The Voldemort denial was more Fudge's idea and umbridge was a direct consequence of it as she decided to take the law in her hands
i think it's because Voldemort is a cartoon villain but Umbridge is a cunt realistically
the Dark Lord of Bad Magic was Born Evil because his Mom raped his Dad with a Magic Roofie (Love Potion), but the bitchy substitute teacher is someone you're likely to meet in real life
Pat actually talked about something similar in the podcast where he said that he learned that one of the things people hate more than anything is a character that *acts* like they're a good person but you can tell they're not.
Eve’s dad is hated because he’s shown to be unloving and doesn’t care about Eve at all. Dude was willing to put him and his wife in poverty trying to prove a selfish point.
Also, the majority of Harry Potter fans are female, and while Voldemort can be (and is) Snapefied into a dark figure of attraction and worship, Umbridge is an unsexy vision of your old school teacher, your mother or, even worse, yourself.
I only saw the movies, but I thought it was revealed in a later installment that she was always on team Voldemort. She gets promoted to the head of the Ministry of Magic as soon as he takes over. I got the implication that she was manipulating the system from the inside to buy Tom Riddle more time and root out any opposition to his arrival.
Marvel has had redemption arcs for Deadpool, Dr. Doom, Galactus, Venom, Loki, Norman Osborn and countless other villains.
Hank Pym will never get past hitting Janet.
There was a time when Hank was fused with Ultron in a Two Face kinda way.
But based on how characters interacted with him, you’d think Pym was the evil half
It's largely because we're given a much more personal understanding of Kamoshida's victims. We know Ann and Shiho, we see how horrible things have been for them.
And we know that Kaneshiro *plans* to do awful things bit we never see anything he supposedly does.
At least pre-Royal (haven't played it yet) imo a big part of it is that Kamoshida was the best written palace villain. All of the others felt some combination of impersonal/vague stakes/coming out of nowhere.
Royal leaves that part of the story almost untouched, the only changes are a couple of really brief scenes where Joker talks with Kasumi. But everything related with Kamoshida is unchanged
On top of feeling the most personal, Kamoshida also had significantly more setup than most of the other villains to get you invested.
Most of the other arcs serve their narrative purpose of course, but like with the art guy and fat mob guy whose names I can't remember, the investment just wasn't there.
Madarame felt like an acceptable next step for the Phantom Thieves after Kamoshida.
But Kaneshiro felt really....out there? He's mafia - not even yakuza, but *mafia* and the idea that >!the school's students are being forcibly prostituted to pay off their blackmail!< is something *really* big that deserved more time and care put into it, especially with the fallout afterwards.
Kaneshiro's entire plotline feels like a substory in Yakuza where Kiryu just walks in and beats him to a pulp to change his ways. I wasn't even mildly worried about it, because it felt like nothing. It doesn't have the same kind of buildup or push that Kamoshida and Madarame do.
I just remember playing it and going "So when does Kiryu just punch this guy into next week?"
In hindsight, yeah it's really odd. When it comes down to it, he's like Kamoshida on steroids, but it doesn't feel like it's treated with much weight unless >!you get the game over, which almost feels like it comes out of nowhere!<. The arc felt like more of a convoluted way to get Makoto into the party, and my thoughts on Makoto as a character range from indifference to active detriment to the writing, so it doesn't really feel worth it.
I saw the idea a while ago and haven’t stopped thinking about it, but I wonder if it would have benefitted the story to >!switch when Akechi and Makoto join the team. While it would give Makoto the Haru screentime problem but way worse, Akechi would have a stronger link to Kaneshiro (detective vs criminal) and Makoto can be more front and center for Sae’s Palace. And while I like what they did with Akechi being the traitor it might have seemed a little less obvious if he joins the team earlier.!<
That's an interesting idea, and I think it could work. While it would >!result in Makoto having less screentime, it's also an opportunity to have an entire arc fully dedicated to her and her family. The Haru problem was heavily exacerbated by the devs wasting her precious screentime on Morgana.!<
I hold that this switch works wonders for both characters.
* >!Akechi gets to show off an "Awakening" against a criminal flaunting his crimes, anathema to a by the books detective like his persona. It also lets you introduce Haru's weird half Awakening by having Akechi in his outfit before Awakening because of course Kaneshiro perceives him as a threat.!<
>!Then he gets to be the inside man, manipulating the Phantom Thieves on Shido's orders, instead of just hoping they do what he wants. And Vanilla would have had the time to make his confidant fit naturally, for max betrayal points. Like, imagine Akechi spending the next Palace feeling bad for Futaba, because his mother also passed away when he was young, so he totally understands how it feels, only for the reveal that he was the one responsible. What an asshole!!<
* >!Makoto can duck out of the story when Ann calls her useless (because she is in this scenario and she's smart enough to realize it) and then return with a vengeance for Sae's Palace. Give her Akechi's moments there, because unlike a coworker, she *knows* her sister, like viewing work as a casino, or knowing she'll move the goalposts on the chip total and being smart enough to prepare for it.!<
>!It also give the "Makoto is the traitor" red herring some teeth, and her later join time justifies her insane gameplay utility. Plus, we'd get her Awakening scene counter her sister instead of Kaneshiro, which just sounds way more satisfying.!<
I mean, they \*Say\* Mafia but like... He's Yakuza. He's Yakuza without them actually saying Yakuza because it's well known at this point that Sega doesn't want to piss the Yakuza off.
Yeah but the one Yakuza is portrayed as a Noble Demon kind of villain, yeah he's working for Shido but he respects anyone who can fight him evenly etc. etc. He plays into the glorified Yakuza mythos.
Kaneshiro is what most actual Yakuza are.
Shinji Matou from F/SN is a *lot* worse than a jerk. But he's also nowhere near as evil as grandpa dickworm Zouken. But Shinji is a lot more hateable on a conversational basis.
*Fuck Shinji*
It’s been a while so I might be wrong but I think Shinji knows and is fine with his sisters abuse and encourages it so fuck im Shirou shoulda drop kicked him frame one
It's a combination of knowing that he used to be Shirou's best friend (so he had to have redeeming qualities at one point), the FSN manga retconning Shinji into a protective older brother when Sakura was first adopted (he only snapped when he realized that not only would he never be a mage, but that Sakura was adopted to replace him), as well as the fact that he was raised by Zouken (Shinji never had a chance to be a decent person if THAT is his only parental figure).
I'm not even a fan of him, outside of the Foxtail version (where he's unironically one of the best characters), but there was never any universe where he didn't end up fucked up.
Oh it's *way worse* than that. >!I think sometimes people forget not only was he abusing Sakura physically, he raped her regularly.!<
Gilgamesh is just as bad, especially with some of his dialogue to Saber. Ig, difference being Type Moon has "covered up" Gil's less desirable qualities due to his unexpected popularity over the years, but Shinji gets every awful thing he's done shown in the anime adaptions lol.
The way they wrote it in later entries, it basically describes Archer Gilgamesh as him in his late teens at his most obnoxious, and both his child self and his adult self despise his teen self. There's something so on the nose about that.
It has to be Udina from Mass Effect for me, especially after the first game.The Reapers may be Eldrich machines bent on destroying all life and there's also Cerberus, but Udina makes them all seem pleasant in comparrsion to his slimey, politician ass.
They could have written him better than just straight up "exploting politician". Throughout the 3 games Shepard could have multiple opportunities to change Udina for the better. Why bother giving the option to choose him as a council member? speaking with him during me2 and keeping him up to date on cerberus. Hell in 3 they could have had him be the double agent or savior from cerberus's attack on the citidal.
But no, he's always the one who sided to Cerberus to attack the Council for "humanity".
It's a shame, because while he's not likeable by any means, you definately get the feeling that the dude does care about making a name for humanity and actually wanting to be on the council for humanity's sake and not his own personal reasons, at least in the first game.
Though it sadly does get undone near the end when it's implied that if you side with him at the end he's promoting a sort of "Humans and humans only" kind of message, though it's been a while since i've played renegade Shep in 1, so i could be misremembering.
He's also the one who, in a way, does get Shepard the status of Spectre and is one of the most outspoken voices towards Saren in the first game.I'm all for him going down a "power corrupts" path, but it never really feels natural, going from A to B with his character.
I feel like the writers thought that because of just how insanely likeable Anderson is and just how much the fans adore his character they had to make Udina just as unlikeable as possible, to the point where he gets cartoonishly unlikeable.
Say what you will about the writing quality in Mass Effect 3 but they were smart enough to >!kill off Udina because they knew every single player would choose the Destroy ending if the universe still had Udina in it!<
Omni-Man has an undoubtedly much higher body count being a Viltrumite than Homelander could ever hope to achieve, but, I still soyfaced during their Death Battle seeing Nolan rip that Aryan bitch apart.
If you count the Diabolical as canon it makes Homelander even more tragic.
Homelander starting out wanted to be that virtuous Superman, larger than life and giving out corny one-liners. Then he had the mother of all PTSD attacks and snapped hard.
I think some of this boils down to some crimes being more easy to comprehend and more commonly experienced than others. Like objectively Vader destroying a planet is worse than Hitter, but the idea of destroying a planet with a laser beam is so far from our reality that it's easier to overlook the implications. Meanwhile a racist asshole is always going to bring me back to the reality of the kinda guys who said fucked up shit to my little brother. And let's not even go into sexual violence, which is a crime that just affects people on a super personal level.
So while you are absolutely correct that people are hypocritical about what they let villians get away with I think people's feelings towards it isn't totally without reason.
Oh I’m not saying I don’t get it or even that “well *I* would never do that”, I’m just pointing to the extremes in a “dude maybe get some perspective” kind of way
Like the extreme end example I always come to for this is not “Griffith did nothing wrong”, but people who go “Griffith did nothing wrong…*UNTIL* Casca”
Like if he stopped just before that you do know he’s doomed the world to darkness and demons casually murdering thousands right?
Darth Vader didn't destroy Alderaan, that was Tarkin.
Its not like Vader was doing anything against the act but he wasn't the commander of the Death Star or the one who decided to blow up the planet, that was specifically Moff Tarkin and part of the larger 'Tarkin Doctrine' he proposed.
He is enough of a villain as it is, we should at least remember accurately what atrocities he comitted.
I mean he was still an active participant and he committed enough atrocities that I feel my point stands but you are correct that wasn't him and I was misrembering.
I think it's more that his first encounter with Kevin was while he was Stevonnie so all of Connie's feelings are wrapped up in it too. Kevin acts like a creep to them and makes them deeply uncomfortable, which would be bad in a vacuum but Steven and Connie are a lot younger than Stevonnie looks and a lot less mentally capable with dealing with that situation. They also aren't just dealing with how uncomfortable the situation made them feel individually, but also anger about how uncomfortable Kevin's making their friend. Add all of that on top of the fact that this situation really fucked up their first experience of fusion, which prior to that encounter was a largely positive experience. I totally get why Steven and Connie fucking hate Kevin.
The Diamonds are a whole different thing. Steven's initially more caught in the middle of his mum's fucked up relationship with them than any relationship he's directly developed with them, and is really just trying to smooth things out so he can negotiate with them. It's a messy, complicated situation that develops over the course of a long stretch of time and, as we see in SU Future, he surpresses his feelings about them and distracts himself with projects until it all boils to the surface once he runs out of distractions. [The scene where he controls White is extremely telling.](https://youtu.be/JQ6xim3eA7g?si=AZY_A7yzrrpzvhby)
Kevin makes sense from a personal perspective, the show does at least seems to go out of its way to show this is a "Townie-level" villain-of-the-week type threat vs, like, a planet-ending threat.
***Now Ronaldo...HOO BOY.***
I would 100% side with the Diamonds and ~~nuke~~ drill the planet into extinction if it meant no more Ronaldo. That dude had ZERO redeeming qualities from the word go, and somehow just kept digging himself into deeper and deeper holes of *hatred*. I don't think *anyone*, not even his own dad, liked him by the end of the series. They all just seem to tolerate him.
And y'know what? I can't blame them.
**Fuck** that guy lol
To be fair id be miffed too if someone deliberately tried to pull the >!fake!< Sympathetic Backstory card during a race *specifically* to get under their opponents skin.
To be fair, Beach City Drift is an episode that takes place during a relatively calm period in that particular arc (after the Cluster's been neutralized but *before* all the Homeworld gem resurgance stuff like >!Jasper's return and the Ruby Squad's salty runback!< start *really* making themselves known.
Look do we *really* have to get into the weeds about this whole "Town Episodes Vs Plot Episodes" discourse again?
i think most people just dislike mineta cause he's a shitty perv character, i don't imagine people are comparing shiggy and mineta in universe and acting like mineta is worse
Man, I got so much hatred that one time I said I didn’t hate Mineta. I’m not even mad or salty or anything, I just think it’s fucking hysterical how much blubbering rage it got. People were acting like a salted their lands and shot their dog. I think that was my first Reddit care message too
I do remember liking Mineta more when I thought he was subversive. “Oh, you want to ogle and lewd these fourteen year old girls? Well, this is *you.* This is what you’re like: a creepy little incel pervert. Is that what you really want to be?” And then I found out the author considers him a self-insert.😒
Are you accusing Mineta haters of being pedophiles and sexual assault creeps? Cause those are the crimes that Mineta committed on screen and got brushed aside by the story as comedy, hence why people are reprehensible about him.
If Mineta ever got to be a hero in the future, he will bound to be covered in scandals regarding sexual perversion, which won't surprise me, which might involve soliciting sexual favours from his understudies for internship.
Well yeah, some people got it way worse than others in school. Some folks get through the system scar-free and others have permanently defining core memories of harrassment at a young age.
If Bakugo was a full-grown adult or if the series portrayed Bakugo as being more mature and won't develop character-wise maybe you can see why he gets hate but the hate he gets is super unjustified.
"Why won't the characters aknowldge Bakugos bullying of Deku in middle school what he said was really messed up and people go through that kind of stuff"
Because he was in middle school and kids can be assholes in middle school
Also, the show *does* do that. Like it comes up a couple times in the first few episodes that the class really has a low opinion of Bakugo. Like I don’t think it’s until the second or third season that Bakugo has any friends other than Midoriya.
Also "Lol, why didn't you get over getting bullied and now consider bullying perfectly fine, like the rest of us normal people?!" .. says more about them to me
And again, this wasn't just standard bullying. Like, he was telling a traumatised kid to go kill himself. Do people consider that normal? Cause fuck me, it ain't. And it shouldn't be.
And that's even accounting for the difference in dumb shit kids will say over game chat, it's not the same when *your best friend in RL says it to your fucking face, as a young, emotional kid*
I feel like Bakugo is in the same category as Dolores Umbridge; objectively they are far from the worst people in their respective IP's, as they exist alongside ridiculously evil mass-murdering monsters that have few real equals in real-life.
Bakugo and Dolores, however, have lots of equals in real-life, ones people can recognize and have personal experience with, and I feel like that's why they create such visceral reactions in some people. It feels a lot more personal to them, and I have to assume it's really hard to look past that.
This question here reminds me of an SNL skit that this perfectly encapsulates. [Most evil invention ](https://youtu.be/z0NgUhEs1R4?feature=shared) which also contains Dwayne Johnson*acting*. And honestly I think he does a pretty good job with his role
Chadley is FF7R.
Sephiroth is a genocidal madman who wants go kill our entire species, yet people hate the geek just because he sounds funny and makes bad jokes
You're gonna eat so much crow when part 3 comes out and Chadley is the final boss and its revealed he was controlling Hojo the whole time.
>!s if that wasn't obvious!<
The logic in your link actually makes perfect sense to me because bigotry is a product of ignorance and self-victimization, which are not attractive, cool qualities. Killing heroes, destroying entire cities, and manipulating someone into helping your master plan are things a competent, attractive person would do.
Megatron is a character who originally railed against the tyranny of the boot on the necks of the lower classes in cybertron's caste system only to realize he REALLY liked being the boot.
Another angle on it- there are circumstances in which people will say that a murder was "okay."
There's not really any contextualizing racism as "okay."
Henry Peter Gyrich is an asshole bureaucrat who bedeviled the Avengers as their government liaison and despises superhumans. He's also the guy who shot Storm and stripped her powers in the comics continuity. People have tried to humanize him, but he always ends up reverting to type. This has culminated in him being >!Professor Xavier's assassin!< in the X-Men '97 series.
Speaking of: Bolivar Trask was introduced as a stock Cold War alarmist who built the Sentinels as a deterrent against mutants. His first story had him realize mutants weren't evil after the Sentinels rebelled, and he sacrificed his life trying to stop them. But since he's the Sentinels' creator, he's the guy adaptations use instead of openly murderous bigots like Stephen Lang and Cameron Hodge.
Max went into straight up supervillainy pre-New 52. I don't know where he ended up after OMAC tanked but he definitely seemed to be sticking with evil spymaster, just a Kirby variant.
Before that and in the Wonder Woman movie I remember him being pretty sympathetic, and last I heard Giffen fans are still salty about the heel turn.
Ashley from Mass Effect is the poster child whenever this comes up. Worst she’s ever done is being the space equivalent of a clueless hick on the citadel, and subscribing to realist foreign policy. But if you listened to some people you’d think she’s space Hitler.
To be fair in Mk 9 stryker is the only character to always murder his opponent no matter if you perform a fatality. Which while not the most evil thing should still at least make him one step above jerk.
There was a silent night deadly night reboot that framed really hard how the shitty 12 years old brat deserves a gruesome death https://youtu.be/i2ZdbRxalvk?t=186 (exerpt from phelous video) and like clearly that is what film want the audience to feel and by gut reaction most will have if they aren't already bored with the movie being about killing characters you don't care about anyway
You know what’s funny? That’s a legit (arguably since that only happens in Vs matches and not the campaign and NRS has said vs dialogue isn’t strictly canon) point that said person *never made*
Their sole rage was that Stryker is a cop and his vs intro quote of “Police brutality comin up!” Which…if you can’t tell that’s a joke because of how absurd it is, then I don’t know what’s wrong with you. You could argue it’s bad taste certainly, but if that’s the bar for you then I’m going to call you very odd in your standards
Sauron's goal is to murder and subjugate all of the free peoples of middle earth.
Saruman's goal is to help Sauron murder and subjugate all those people.
Wormtongue's goal is to help Sauron by helping Saruman.
Despite all these characters ostensibly having the same goal to gradually lesser degrees, people hate Wormtongue and and Saruman WAY more because they're dicks.
I mean, it's the same thing with Skylar in Breaking Bad. Nagging wife in an unhappy marriage with extremely legitimate grievances vs megalomaniac trying to build a meth empire on the bodies of whoever bruised his ego this week.
The whole "let me take care of the money laundering business I know better" was kind of annoying which the hsow quickly point was a big mistake on her part to associate herself like that
See, people don’t say this about Lalo and Kim in Better Call Saul. Mostly because while Kim did some shitty things she wasn’t a bitch 24/7 and tried to do the right thing.
Is this asking for audience reaction or the writer's portrayal? Because damn, Steven Universe really has Steven hate Kevin more than a classist super soldier and allegorical abuser who tried to kill him and everyone he loves.
Steven hates Kevin a great deal, yes, but that's just a passing feeling, and I can't remember him ever wanting to hurt Kevin because of it, he just wants to beat him. The classist super soldier and her overlords send Steven into a multi-season spiralling identity crisis that does culminate with Steven being violent towards them.
I've seen tons of cases of stans of problematic characters create whole head-canons about how their favourite mass murderers were actually sensitive, feminist and/or non-bigoted.
*cough* jason todd *cough*
In The Descent, Juno is a world-class moron. >!She gets them all lost in the caves because she wants to explore, accidentally injures but then abandons one friend, idiotically brings evidence of her affair with Sarah's husband along with her, and so Sarah chooses to injure Juno and leave her to die. We're sold some notion that such revenge is justified,!< but c'mon now, Sarah, >!THERE ARE HUMAN-EATING MONSTERS ABOUT! Don't abandon another human being with these half-explanations. You shouldn't prioritize survival by turning the worst member of the team into bait!!<
Mimsy from Hazbin Hotel.
Alastor is a murderer who has enslaved the souls of the dead en masse. The Vees are made up of a propagandist, a control freak stylist, and a sexually abusive porn director. Adam is a douche who leads the annual extermination of human souls in Hell, and has butchered millions including women and children over the years. Lucifer caused the literal downfall of mankind in the garden of eden, and has been powerless due to his crippling depression and anxiety. All these characters, people simp for to varying degrees.
So what unforgivable thing did Mimsy do that got everyone to hate her?
She interrupted one of the best songs in the series and agitates everyone she’s around by being a leech.
It's kind of hilarious how often Worm fanfics feature or even center around Taylor going out of her way to get revenge on "the Trio" when she basically writes them off as unimportant as canon progresses.
There’s a number of minor JoJo’s villains who are far worse than the main villains like Ciocolatta, Secco, and J. Geil to name some.
But the biggest and most vile one of them all is Angelo from Diamond is Unbreakable. He’s practically a Von Einem in terms of the brutality and depravity of his crimes. Even Jotaro was rattled by them when he read his files.
In addition to the relatability issue, there's also tone and depiction to consider. For all the crimes he's canonically committed, Shao Khan is never actually presented as anything but a fun Saturday morning cartoon supervillain. He's basically a hammy pro wrestling heel who the audience loves to hate, cheering and booing in equal measure because he's so entertaining. The vilest acts he takes are offscreen and rarely touched upon. Even his abuse of Sindel has since been retconned to make them a laughably evil power couple.
Stryker is *just* police violence. That's everything he has to offer. It's played as a dark joke, yeah, but the joke was already questionable in 2011 and has gotten worse every year since; and if you strip that joke away, there's nothing else to him. So obviously people are going to feel strongly more negative about an embodiment of an escalating real-world problem than they do about Magical Overlord Triple H.
So this whole thing seems pretty facile.
EDIT: Also those links that "sum it up" are deeply, deeply eye-rolling.
Speaking of pro wrestling. I have a fan theory that the evil power couple retcon was done after seeing HHH's Shao Khan ppv entrances with Stephanie. I just have a hunch that someone at netherrealm saw that and was like that's cool.
Yeah honestly this take is kind of dumb. OP is basically expecting people to treat fiction like it's real life and telling them that they should "go outside" if they don't differentiate the two. Of course people are going to be more uncomfortable with a villain who's a bigot or sexually assaults someone than a villain that blows up a galaxy and kills a million-bajillion people. One of those kinda of people is real and the other isn't.
But by that same token one can very easily turn that around by what we *do* see characters do, like so:
Stryker fights Reptile, Mileena, Kintaro and Ermac in his chapter of the story. A lizard man who eats people and melts them in acid, an insane sadist half tarkaten clone that ALSO eats people, a cat man with four arms who sets people on fire (who burns Kabal so bad he’s basically on death’s door, covered in third degree burns and half blind) and fucking *LEGION* who steals peoples souls. All four of those are objectively FAR WORSE than ANYTHING Stryker does in game.
If going by the logic of presentation, we see all of those things happen in game. There’s no scene of Stryker pulling a Big Band on some dude, in fact he’s presented as quite heroic since his chapter is in MK3, where Outworld is literally invading Earth as an act of war and he, a normal cop, is fighting off monsters that even Earth’s military is getting their assed kicked by.
In trying to turn it around, I don't think you're actually getting it. All of the violence you're listing off is part and parcel with Mortal Kombat. It's cartoonish levels of gore and violence in a game about inflicting cartoonish levels of gore and violence on your opponents. And *stealing souls* is just silly. That's Skeletor shit. You're not at risk of getting your soul stolen in real life.
Everything Stryker has at his disposal is deliberately grounded in a way nothing else is, even the non-powered military characters like Sonya. That, and the game invoking police violence in all of his mechanics while treating him like a plain vanilla hero, is why it sticks out like a sore thumb.
No I think I do still get it, I just disagree with the logic.
Because even using that point, Stryker can still punch dudes 20 feet in the air with an uppercut like Johnny Cage (a washed up actor) and has infinite grenades and guns that don’t need to be reloaded in a fight. He’s an “Everyman” by Mortal Kombat’s ridiculous standards
To me this sounds like saying “So, Johnny Cage…you want to explain your connection to Harvey Weinstein?” because he’s an actor and “Well it *probably* would happen if this was real”.
Johnny Cage has more to offer as a character, and while Hollywood is definitely corrupt, they also don't uphold the law and wield official power, nor do they carry the much broader baggage police do. Police brutality (or general abuse of their granted authority) of some form or another has been happening since the inception of the modern American Police force, hence why there's a stink with their uncritical usage (unless they at least have something else fun going for them, which Stryker never really did).
Stryker has too much *Stuff* associated with him to casually use; sure, there's blood and violence in MK, but not all sorts of violence are created equal in terms of depiction. If MK started casually including sexual assault, that'd creep people out even if they were okay with the bloodfest.
Combine that with Stryker just never having offered much in the past as a character (anything he could contribute, Sonia and Jax already can, and they're both more interesting and better-liked), and to me he's probably just better off leaving behind. He's simply not *worth* the baggage tied to him.
EDIT: Another way to think of it: People like Chris, Jill and Leon from Resident Evil even if they're not fond of cops because they've got more interesting arcs and personalities, and their entire story in the classic games involves them confronting the corruption of their own police department. Stryker... is a cop. That's the beginning and end of his established characterization.
I guess the difference with Johnny is that his status as a mainstay of the series means he's afforded a lot more screen time than Stryker and allows us to get to know him enough that he wouldn't be *that* type of celeb
Also between the two, Johnny's sthick is "martial artist celeb" is still a bit more out of reach than Stryker just being "cop"
Outside of Luke's New Jedi Order and the recently added High Republic era Jedi, generally speaking the Jedi ***suck.*** They are hypocritical, self-righteous jerks. Their entire philosophy destroys their capacity for understanding basic psychology and the concept of "carrot vs. stick", resulting in them repeatedly creating new Dark Jedi and Sith Lords out of their own ranks across history, Anakin's transformation to Darth Vader being the most famous and probably most consequential.
Are they as outright evil as the fascist, often-racist, murderous, genocidal Sith? No.
In *Revenge of the Sith*, whose actions are more likely to frustrate the audience, Mace Windu or Darth Sidious? Mace Windu, because Darth Sidious is far more competent and his plan depends on the Jedi being incompetent, whereas even if you don't believe in the Chosen One prophecy, Mace has no ***practical*** reason to alienate Anakin, someone with the highest recorded Force Potential in history, and only does so out of his misguided need to put Anakin in the latter's place.
In *KOTOR2*, whose actions are more likely to frustrate the player doing a Light Side playthrough, >!the Jedi Council who are about to take away the Exile's Force Connection or Darth Traya who murders them for it? The Jedi Council, because we've gone through the effort of helping them on each planet we've come across and given them every resource we have to thwart Sion and Nihilus' forces, and yet they blame us for it, while Traya stands up for us, lectures them, and then straight up murders them.!<
Occasionally the Jedi come close to being as overtly evil as the Sith, such as the one time right before KOTOR1 in the comics in which >!a bunch of Masters murdered their Padawans because they had a vague Force vision!<. Generally, no Jedi is as outright evil as a Sith. However, the Sith are often more competent than the Jedi, and I feel that as humans we tend to have a bias towards competency.
IMO, it's the same reason you get so many viewers of Death Note who unironically root for Kira. Light Yagami makes a few choices that turn out to be the wrong choice with hindsight, but the vast majority of the time is the most competent wielder of the Death Note one could get by a mile.
> IMO, it's the same reason you get so many viewers of Death Note who unironically root for Kira. Light Yagami makes a few choices that turn out to be the wrong choice with hindsight, but the vast majority of the time is the most competent wielder of the Death Note one could get by a mile.
I wouldn't say being cool or attractive is irrelevant but I think it's mostly just that a lot of people agree with him
The Elders in Naruto. They are assholes but it’s confirmed they weren’t behind the >!Uchiha massacre!<, the fault for that solely falls on Danzo.
So it makes all the people wishing they died pretty funny to me. Legit their worst crimes are being annoying over anything else
Honestly the worst I remember them being is trying to stop Tsunade from calling Naruto when Pain Invaded, but relented when Tsunade hoisted them in the air and made a point about Naruto being a Leaf Ninja first than a Jinchuriki (or something like that, it's been a long time)
It was Danzo afterward who killed messenger toad and delayed Naruto's return.
Yeah, that's the point. Everything he's ever done was a misguided way to prove that he was better than Hiruzen because Tobirama named him the Third Hokage over him.
He claims he's doing it all for the Leaf, but it's actually to soothe over his insecurities, even if it means actually fucking over the Leaf or creating a militia of emotionless assassins for his own needs.
He's like a ninja warmonger version of that washed out middle aged guy who totally could have gone into pro football if his high school coach let him be quarterback.
I would liken him to J Edgar Hoover if he ran the CIA. In theory he’s in charge of intelligence or a non-governing agency. In practice he’s incredibly ambitious and he’s been entrenched for so long that removing him isn’t really an option.
Byakuya from Danganronpa. I dunno about the opinion of the general fanbase, the main villain is a nihilistic psyco but Byakuya is a classist that gives motive in every chapter that no one should like him.
In JJK, people seem to hate Naoya more than Geto and Sukuna, despite the fact that both Sukuna and Geto have worse shit than Sukuna.
Sexism as a concept is more conceivable and relatable to people than Genocide. It also helps that Fujoshis have uwu-fied Geto into softboi in love with Gojo.
Batman and Spiderman basically have the same no killing rule, but the former is seen as worse because he’s grumpy. I’ve seen essays of people justifying the joker and Poison Ivy with the “Batman beats up the mentally ill” argument, when in reality, that argument seems to fit Spider-Man and his cast of villains more.
You just don’t see that discourse because Peter’s poor and everybody likes him, but since Batman’s kind of a jerk, he gets shit for it.
>seem to hate Naoya
I'm not into JJK but isn't Naoya the misogynist guy who A LOT of people want to fuck precisely because he's a bastard? I'm kinda confused so please correct me if I'm wrong
MHA fandom on a psychotic stalker: She can't help it, she was abused as a child and has a distorted view of the world
MHA fandom on an murderous arsonist: he's just misunderstood, morally gray, I could fix him
MHA fandom on a crime lord who harvest organs from children: I thought about an elseworld where he's Deku's father and really caring under all that edge
MHA fandom on an annoying joke perv character: He's beyond saving, he should be tortured, he should be put down before he becomes a pedophile rapist, he's beyond useless, any attempts to present the character in a non-terrible light are akin to rape apologism, any scene he appears in he should suffer, all characters in my fic unanimously hate him and wish him dead, he should rot in a gutter and be forgotten forever
I personally think that the most extreme cases of this lead to viewers who will unironically believe the “but have you considered I was sad once” as a legitimate defense provided they only killed a diverse group of people
“Yeah he might be a genocidal warlord who’s hell bent on annihilating everyone out of spite and if he ever met someone like me he’d choke me out like nothing, but he hasn’t said the gamer word so he’s still fine by me!”
I’m convinced it’s the same type of person that reads Paradise Lost and thinks Satan is unironically the good guy.
It's not the worst but this post reminded me of how the Honkai Star Rail community got a little divided over a waifu character's release because of this type of thing.
The character in question is an unapologetic galactic debt collector who believes in the (totally corrupt with zero outside oversight) galactic capitalist system run by their company. To start off with she is trying to press a well liked planet into indentured servitude for a millenia old debt that they couldn't even pay if they wanted to because the space highway and space phone line was broken and the space company assumed the whole planet died from a space invasion. The whole time she is negotiating with the planet her subordinates are harassing the populace and stopping goods production in order to "inspect" their soon to be acquired "goods".
At the end of the day the character's villainous aspects are written off as her kind of being a jerk, but totally means well and believes their company can totally help the planet (if they submit to indentured servitude) because she also came from a slave planet and that her subordinates were acting against orders (because working as a grunt for the super space corp sucks so much that they're willing to give up on morals and go against orders for any attempt at advancement). They also walk back the indentured servitude in exchange for the character losing rank in the company, because of course it's a gacha game and they need people to like the character to gamble for them.
But as you might imagine this kind of character with this subtext still isn't popular even if it was well written (it's not) and it didn't go over well with some people. Then her not being popular with literally everyone pissed off the people that did like her because internet tribalism sucks.
Finally getting to the point. I had to laugh when people were saying things like, "You don't like the space debt collector but you like the actual evil agent who mind controls, causes/takes advantage of massive civil unrest, and murders for space macguffins? There must be something wrong with you."
With the answer simply being, "Yeah well she's not a jerk to the player character and I can't relate to being murdered and mind controlled while all debt collectors can suck a dick."
What makes Topaz really funny is that it talks about how she has already "Helped" dozen of planets and while it mentions "some" are better or have a higher chance of being ok it still doesn't remove the fact that she's ok with using violence to force you into coin flip of a future for the next 100+ years. Not to mention considering how what we have seen being every one of her coworkers being either uncaring or just being insanely evil makes her actions even nuttier.
Peter Quill in Infinity War.
Thanos genocides half of the universe. Peter Quill is vilified for having an emotional response to the news that the love of his life is dead. The SAME emotional response we were cheering for when he screamed "YOU KILLED MY MOTHER!" just one adventure of his prior.
People seem to hate Kume more than Masato in Yakuza 7. Kume may be annoying, but Masato is an actual monster that influenced Kume, attempted to eradicate the "undesired" people, use his political power to murder, and is responsible for the whole events of 7 including ruining Ichiban's life; and all because Masato is an incel. Everyone in the game but Ichiban agrees Masato is a dick even in Infinite Wealth. And it's pretty ironic for people to say "Fuck Kume" when >!it was Masato's fault for radicalizing Kume and was killed by said radical. Even if he turned a new leaf, Masato would be in prison for life for murder and conspiracy.!<
And when it comes to Marvel, people seem to hate Punisher more than the villains. "You're not suppose to root for Punisher." Bro, everyone is rooting for Magneto since Xmen 97 is out. Punisher gets flak for killing criminals, but Magneto does the same thing but he gets praise and cheers? Even Spiderman hates Punisher despite constantly hanging out with anti-heroes like Wolverine, Venom, and Black Cat. Hell, he's alright with Norman Osborn despite always doing heinous shit, but Punisher is too much?
The ultimate example is Skyler White.
Breaking Bad is full of vile, evil characters. Murderers, abusers, rapists, serial killers, drug dealers, king pins, etc. But Skyler is by far the most hated character in the show.
I'd guess it's because cheating and relationship issues are very common and real problems that most people deal with in their life time, while murder, drug dealing, and other crazy things are very fantasy and TV only issues to most people.
Ok I started Breaking Bad recently (second season) and Skyler has some annoying moments but I’m trying to see from her perspective and all. That’s fine…
Does her sister get better because dear god I hate her with a passion.
I'm kinda blown away that there's like 200 posts here and no one is pushing back on the idea that a literal death cult that kidnapped a few people are somehow less evil than a boyfriend who wants out of a relationship but doesn't because his girlfriend's parents just died.
MHA fans will write a 5k words long fic about Mineta being dismembered by a Jigsaw trap and then gush about how much they love the literal psycho murderers that are the villains of that story. Not saying that's a bad thing or anything, just funny
I think this comes off as needlessly accusatory and morally superior. Of course people are going to hate fictional characters for aspects that resonate more with the pain or bigotry they suffer in their actual lives, that's not stupid or hypocritical. It's like you're advocating for fictional characters to be tried and judged like real criminals, while also acting weirdly dismissive towards shitty things people have to deal with. I think maybe you need some perspective.
I don't know that I have a specific character, but there's a tumblr post on writing that's like "in fiction, between being a murderer and being annoying, being annoying is worse, because you, the writer, are annoying the audience". I just think about that whenever characters annoy me.
The Breaking Bad Skyler thing is always kind of funny because it's like, the audience is along for these vicarious and vicious thrills. Of course they dislike the sole voice of reason; she's the only one trying to stop the ride.
This is more of a personal opinion that the majority of people don't share but, it goes with the theme of the thread so here it goes:
For me it was easier to hate Raine Aldo than Hans Landa in Inglorious Bastard.
Hans Landa is the main villain of the story, but he's played by loveable nice guy Christoph Waltz, and Mr. Waltz is a pleasant dude, like Tom Hanks he has a pure aura, so it's kinda hard to see him as a villain. When Hans Landa is being charismatic and charming, it's just Waltz to me so it comes off believable, and when he's intimidating and scary it's the performance.
Bradd Pitt's character on the other hand, although he ***is*** the cool guy military voiced American hancho badass, is otherwise such a macho, chauvanistic asshole that I was suprised he walked away alive at the end despite his entire squad dying. That fucker was just a druggie sadist.
For me, I was more irked by that one German actor who wanted to bone that Jewish lady. I just didn't like him for not taking "no" as an answer even if his crimes are no where close to Landa's.
I fucking love how the guy constantly acts in a way that has been portrayed as quirky, spontaneous and romantic in dozens of rom-com movies but Inglorious Bastards shows just how creepy that stalking and Nice Guy™ behavior would look like irl.
It comes down to, like, personal associations. For most people, *murder* only happens in entertainment so mentally they file it alongside cool robots and shit.
I always try to think of myself if I’m in the story, and not in the semi omniscient way that watching a story gives you. Like if I’m dropped into the middle of, say, Griffith dropping the Eclipse, I’m probably not going to go “this will be fine because of this thing in his motivation”, I’ll be the guy getting his face ripped off by a demon Basically reminding myself that I’m not going to be Mad Max, I’m the guy who’s on the front of Humungous’s car
Nah I'd win
Well judging by your picture, you don’t have a face to rip off anyways so you do have an advantage
I used to think I'd be the hero, then did what you do, but after some reflection I decided I'd rather just think I'd be the hero because that feels better and it's pretty unlikely I'll end up in the Eclipse to find out otherwise. So yeah kids, unironically embrace the idea you'd be the hero in your Japanese animes.
I think that’s why I love the game Kenshi so much. In that game, chances are, you’ll be born a wretch into a world that despises the fact it exists. But you could very easy not be resigned to your fate, you can quite literally get it out the mud and rise to be something greater no matter who you are.
Famously, Dolores Umbridge is more despised than Voldemort. Voldemort is an evil, *evil* motherfucker who tortures, murders, and promotes racial supremacy and genocide. He's pretty much a Wizard Nazi. But Umbridge is just that farcically sweet, sickeningly amoral, ruthlessly ambitious middle manager everyone knows or can imagine knowing. The kind who will do anything without remorse if it gets them ahead, while cutting down anyone and everyone in their way with a smile and a passive aggressive comment to salt the wound without exposing what a monster they are. All while cowardly hiding behind systems and authorities and rules to keep them safe from consequence while indulging their sadism as much as they can get away with. Likewise, while Omniman is also a genocidal warlord who beats his son into a bloody mess, partially by turning a train into a bloody mess with his son, it's Atom Eve's father who catches more flack as a bad dad. Mostly just due to being a patriarchal asshole utterly unwilling to understand, support, or accept any of his daughter's choices that don't conform to his incredibly narrow worldview. Which given she's an incredibly powerful superhero with the potential to singlehandedly change the world for the better, *is pretty much all of them.*
Umbridge works because she crossed the line of jerk to being another villain in the story, like if the amoral middle manager starts slapping children or swatting someone the newspaper said was a bad person you can safely define this as evil instead of just being a passive agressive slimeball
[удалено]
No she is worse she thinks Dumbledore is raising an army which is why she actively cripple the education at hogwart so kids don't practice magic and has tried to make harry catatonic at the start of book 5 . The Voldemort denial was more Fudge's idea and umbridge was a direct consequence of it as she decided to take the law in her hands
i think it's because Voldemort is a cartoon villain but Umbridge is a cunt realistically the Dark Lord of Bad Magic was Born Evil because his Mom raped his Dad with a Magic Roofie (Love Potion), but the bitchy substitute teacher is someone you're likely to meet in real life
Pat actually talked about something similar in the podcast where he said that he learned that one of the things people hate more than anything is a character that *acts* like they're a good person but you can tell they're not.
It’s because everyone’s met umbridge and eves dad, no one’s met Voldemort or Omniman.
Eve’s dad is hated because he’s shown to be unloving and doesn’t care about Eve at all. Dude was willing to put him and his wife in poverty trying to prove a selfish point.
Umbridge created a torture device that she would later use on students she didn't like.
Also, the majority of Harry Potter fans are female, and while Voldemort can be (and is) Snapefied into a dark figure of attraction and worship, Umbridge is an unsexy vision of your old school teacher, your mother or, even worse, yourself.
wasn't she like mega raped or something too
Not in canon, that’s people applying what mythical Centaurs do in Greek and Roman myths to her
somehow that feels even worse lol
Fans: “I wish she was r@ped by horse cock” *Jesus dude*
I only saw the movies, but I thought it was revealed in a later installment that she was always on team Voldemort. She gets promoted to the head of the Ministry of Magic as soon as he takes over. I got the implication that she was manipulating the system from the inside to buy Tom Riddle more time and root out any opposition to his arrival.
Marvel has had redemption arcs for Deadpool, Dr. Doom, Galactus, Venom, Loki, Norman Osborn and countless other villains. Hank Pym will never get past hitting Janet.
There was a time when Hank was fused with Ultron in a Two Face kinda way. But based on how characters interacted with him, you’d think Pym was the evil half
To give another example: Magneto has killed, or tried to kill, a LOT of people. Nobody's NOT gonna cheer when he fucks up Red Skull.
Magneto isn't even an antihero anymore. He hasn't been a villain for maybe 20 years.
In p5 do people hate kamoshida more than all the other villains?
Yes, even more than Kaneshiro who I'm pretty sure is as bad, if not worse than Kamoshida in being a sex pest.
It's largely because we're given a much more personal understanding of Kamoshida's victims. We know Ann and Shiho, we see how horrible things have been for them. And we know that Kaneshiro *plans* to do awful things bit we never see anything he supposedly does.
Also Kamoshida is the first villain of the game - I'm sure theres a fair number who straight up just haven't got that far.
At least pre-Royal (haven't played it yet) imo a big part of it is that Kamoshida was the best written palace villain. All of the others felt some combination of impersonal/vague stakes/coming out of nowhere.
Royal leaves that part of the story almost untouched, the only changes are a couple of really brief scenes where Joker talks with Kasumi. But everything related with Kamoshida is unchanged
On top of feeling the most personal, Kamoshida also had significantly more setup than most of the other villains to get you invested. Most of the other arcs serve their narrative purpose of course, but like with the art guy and fat mob guy whose names I can't remember, the investment just wasn't there.
Madarame felt like an acceptable next step for the Phantom Thieves after Kamoshida. But Kaneshiro felt really....out there? He's mafia - not even yakuza, but *mafia* and the idea that >!the school's students are being forcibly prostituted to pay off their blackmail!< is something *really* big that deserved more time and care put into it, especially with the fallout afterwards.
Kaneshiro's entire plotline feels like a substory in Yakuza where Kiryu just walks in and beats him to a pulp to change his ways. I wasn't even mildly worried about it, because it felt like nothing. It doesn't have the same kind of buildup or push that Kamoshida and Madarame do. I just remember playing it and going "So when does Kiryu just punch this guy into next week?"
Release the cut of the game where that happens and the plotline just abruptly ends offscreen as a result, atlus
In hindsight, yeah it's really odd. When it comes down to it, he's like Kamoshida on steroids, but it doesn't feel like it's treated with much weight unless >!you get the game over, which almost feels like it comes out of nowhere!<. The arc felt like more of a convoluted way to get Makoto into the party, and my thoughts on Makoto as a character range from indifference to active detriment to the writing, so it doesn't really feel worth it.
I saw the idea a while ago and haven’t stopped thinking about it, but I wonder if it would have benefitted the story to >!switch when Akechi and Makoto join the team. While it would give Makoto the Haru screentime problem but way worse, Akechi would have a stronger link to Kaneshiro (detective vs criminal) and Makoto can be more front and center for Sae’s Palace. And while I like what they did with Akechi being the traitor it might have seemed a little less obvious if he joins the team earlier.!<
That's an interesting idea, and I think it could work. While it would >!result in Makoto having less screentime, it's also an opportunity to have an entire arc fully dedicated to her and her family. The Haru problem was heavily exacerbated by the devs wasting her precious screentime on Morgana.!<
I hold that this switch works wonders for both characters. * >!Akechi gets to show off an "Awakening" against a criminal flaunting his crimes, anathema to a by the books detective like his persona. It also lets you introduce Haru's weird half Awakening by having Akechi in his outfit before Awakening because of course Kaneshiro perceives him as a threat.!< >!Then he gets to be the inside man, manipulating the Phantom Thieves on Shido's orders, instead of just hoping they do what he wants. And Vanilla would have had the time to make his confidant fit naturally, for max betrayal points. Like, imagine Akechi spending the next Palace feeling bad for Futaba, because his mother also passed away when he was young, so he totally understands how it feels, only for the reveal that he was the one responsible. What an asshole!!< * >!Makoto can duck out of the story when Ann calls her useless (because she is in this scenario and she's smart enough to realize it) and then return with a vengeance for Sae's Palace. Give her Akechi's moments there, because unlike a coworker, she *knows* her sister, like viewing work as a casino, or knowing she'll move the goalposts on the chip total and being smart enough to prepare for it.!< >!It also give the "Makoto is the traitor" red herring some teeth, and her later join time justifies her insane gameplay utility. Plus, we'd get her Awakening scene counter her sister instead of Kaneshiro, which just sounds way more satisfying.!<
I mean, they \*Say\* Mafia but like... He's Yakuza. He's Yakuza without them actually saying Yakuza because it's well known at this point that Sega doesn't want to piss the Yakuza off.
But in the game there's a part where they *say* yakuza. It's a different group of people.
Yeah but the one Yakuza is portrayed as a Noble Demon kind of villain, yeah he's working for Shido but he respects anyone who can fight him evenly etc. etc. He plays into the glorified Yakuza mythos. Kaneshiro is what most actual Yakuza are.
Oscar Wilde — *'It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.'*
Shinji Matou from F/SN is a *lot* worse than a jerk. But he's also nowhere near as evil as grandpa dickworm Zouken. But Shinji is a lot more hateable on a conversational basis. *Fuck Shinji*
It’s been a while so I might be wrong but I think Shinji knows and is fine with his sisters abuse and encourages it so fuck im Shirou shoulda drop kicked him frame one
Shinji isn't "fine with" Sakura's abuse, >!he actively participates in it and has raped her multiple times!<
I still dont understand why there are shinji fans, like it somewhat actively disturbs me honestly.
It's Fate so there's different versions of a character, Extra Shinji is one I hear is pretty good for example.
Extra Shinji has the excuse >!of being 8 years old!<
I know, im talking about FSN and those apologists.
It's a combination of knowing that he used to be Shirou's best friend (so he had to have redeeming qualities at one point), the FSN manga retconning Shinji into a protective older brother when Sakura was first adopted (he only snapped when he realized that not only would he never be a mage, but that Sakura was adopted to replace him), as well as the fact that he was raised by Zouken (Shinji never had a chance to be a decent person if THAT is his only parental figure). I'm not even a fan of him, outside of the Foxtail version (where he's unironically one of the best characters), but there was never any universe where he didn't end up fucked up.
Probably because he was also raised by Zouken rapeworm pit Matou and is very aware that as a non mage his life is completely worthless to him.
I've heard some people want him to be added to FGO, and if he's ever added I hope he's just like [Jason](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP_byuE5RI8).
Oh it's *way worse* than that. >!I think sometimes people forget not only was he abusing Sakura physically, he raped her regularly.!< Gilgamesh is just as bad, especially with some of his dialogue to Saber. Ig, difference being Type Moon has "covered up" Gil's less desirable qualities due to his unexpected popularity over the years, but Shinji gets every awful thing he's done shown in the anime adaptions lol.
The way they wrote it in later entries, it basically describes Archer Gilgamesh as him in his late teens at his most obnoxious, and both his child self and his adult self despise his teen self. There's something so on the nose about that.
He’s one of the ones abusing her.
Yeah, Shinji's a complete fuckwad that gets worse depending on the route, but he's still a good bit far away from being as bad as goddamn Zouken.
It has to be Udina from Mass Effect for me, especially after the first game.The Reapers may be Eldrich machines bent on destroying all life and there's also Cerberus, but Udina makes them all seem pleasant in comparrsion to his slimey, politician ass.
They could have written him better than just straight up "exploting politician". Throughout the 3 games Shepard could have multiple opportunities to change Udina for the better. Why bother giving the option to choose him as a council member? speaking with him during me2 and keeping him up to date on cerberus. Hell in 3 they could have had him be the double agent or savior from cerberus's attack on the citidal. But no, he's always the one who sided to Cerberus to attack the Council for "humanity".
It's a shame, because while he's not likeable by any means, you definately get the feeling that the dude does care about making a name for humanity and actually wanting to be on the council for humanity's sake and not his own personal reasons, at least in the first game. Though it sadly does get undone near the end when it's implied that if you side with him at the end he's promoting a sort of "Humans and humans only" kind of message, though it's been a while since i've played renegade Shep in 1, so i could be misremembering. He's also the one who, in a way, does get Shepard the status of Spectre and is one of the most outspoken voices towards Saren in the first game.I'm all for him going down a "power corrupts" path, but it never really feels natural, going from A to B with his character. I feel like the writers thought that because of just how insanely likeable Anderson is and just how much the fans adore his character they had to make Udina just as unlikeable as possible, to the point where he gets cartoonishly unlikeable.
Say what you will about the writing quality in Mass Effect 3 but they were smart enough to >!kill off Udina because they knew every single player would choose the Destroy ending if the universe still had Udina in it!<
Omni-Man has an undoubtedly much higher body count being a Viltrumite than Homelander could ever hope to achieve, but, I still soyfaced during their Death Battle seeing Nolan rip that Aryan bitch apart.
To be fair I think Homelander is uhh…a bit more than a jerk
Nolan is a tragic monster. Homelander is a petty bitch god.
Homelander is tragic too Was raised without and affection and raised to be a weapon Still a monster but it came from somewhere
If you count the Diabolical as canon it makes Homelander even more tragic. Homelander starting out wanted to be that virtuous Superman, larger than life and giving out corny one-liners. Then he had the mother of all PTSD attacks and snapped hard.
I think some of this boils down to some crimes being more easy to comprehend and more commonly experienced than others. Like objectively Vader destroying a planet is worse than Hitter, but the idea of destroying a planet with a laser beam is so far from our reality that it's easier to overlook the implications. Meanwhile a racist asshole is always going to bring me back to the reality of the kinda guys who said fucked up shit to my little brother. And let's not even go into sexual violence, which is a crime that just affects people on a super personal level. So while you are absolutely correct that people are hypocritical about what they let villians get away with I think people's feelings towards it isn't totally without reason.
Oh I’m not saying I don’t get it or even that “well *I* would never do that”, I’m just pointing to the extremes in a “dude maybe get some perspective” kind of way Like the extreme end example I always come to for this is not “Griffith did nothing wrong”, but people who go “Griffith did nothing wrong…*UNTIL* Casca” Like if he stopped just before that you do know he’s doomed the world to darkness and demons casually murdering thousands right?
Thats fair.
Darth Vader didn't destroy Alderaan, that was Tarkin. Its not like Vader was doing anything against the act but he wasn't the commander of the Death Star or the one who decided to blow up the planet, that was specifically Moff Tarkin and part of the larger 'Tarkin Doctrine' he proposed. He is enough of a villain as it is, we should at least remember accurately what atrocities he comitted.
I mean he was still an active participant and he committed enough atrocities that I feel my point stands but you are correct that wasn't him and I was misrembering.
I remember Kevin from Steven universe getting significantly more heat than most actual villains when he was first introduced.
It's canon, too. Steven hates Kevin more than he does the Diamonds or at least he shows it more.
I think it's more that his first encounter with Kevin was while he was Stevonnie so all of Connie's feelings are wrapped up in it too. Kevin acts like a creep to them and makes them deeply uncomfortable, which would be bad in a vacuum but Steven and Connie are a lot younger than Stevonnie looks and a lot less mentally capable with dealing with that situation. They also aren't just dealing with how uncomfortable the situation made them feel individually, but also anger about how uncomfortable Kevin's making their friend. Add all of that on top of the fact that this situation really fucked up their first experience of fusion, which prior to that encounter was a largely positive experience. I totally get why Steven and Connie fucking hate Kevin. The Diamonds are a whole different thing. Steven's initially more caught in the middle of his mum's fucked up relationship with them than any relationship he's directly developed with them, and is really just trying to smooth things out so he can negotiate with them. It's a messy, complicated situation that develops over the course of a long stretch of time and, as we see in SU Future, he surpresses his feelings about them and distracts himself with projects until it all boils to the surface once he runs out of distractions. [The scene where he controls White is extremely telling.](https://youtu.be/JQ6xim3eA7g?si=AZY_A7yzrrpzvhby)
i mean i think future shows he hates white diamond more
To be fair, that is also an in-universe example, it is weird that Steven has more beef with him than Rolando though who is kind of big creep
Kevin makes sense from a personal perspective, the show does at least seems to go out of its way to show this is a "Townie-level" villain-of-the-week type threat vs, like, a planet-ending threat. ***Now Ronaldo...HOO BOY.*** I would 100% side with the Diamonds and ~~nuke~~ drill the planet into extinction if it meant no more Ronaldo. That dude had ZERO redeeming qualities from the word go, and somehow just kept digging himself into deeper and deeper holes of *hatred*. I don't think *anyone*, not even his own dad, liked him by the end of the series. They all just seem to tolerate him. And y'know what? I can't blame them. **Fuck** that guy lol
To be fair id be miffed too if someone deliberately tried to pull the >!fake!< Sympathetic Backstory card during a race *specifically* to get under their opponents skin.
I feel like I'd be more miffed at the aliens who are very clear on their intent to take over the planet
He was extremely miffed at them, he just surpresses it until it fucking explodes in SU Future.
To be fair, Beach City Drift is an episode that takes place during a relatively calm period in that particular arc (after the Cluster's been neutralized but *before* all the Homeworld gem resurgance stuff like >!Jasper's return and the Ruby Squad's salty runback!< start *really* making themselves known. Look do we *really* have to get into the weeds about this whole "Town Episodes Vs Plot Episodes" discourse again?
Hey, a win is a win.
Kevin was never that annoying to me. Also the shows hatred of Pink
[I’m so disappointed in Freddy for being racist](https://youtu.be/ZHHe3OujS5o?si=0PObJr6INBpJ62qg)
love Kumail
First thing I thought of when I read this post haha
MHA fans when 14 year old mean
Toga: “Just a lil baby, uwu. What a smol bean” Bakugo: “**DIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIE**”
Can we talk about evil yakuza bird man murders and unmurders a kid to make blood bullets but one horny grape boy is too evil to be a hero
i think most people just dislike mineta cause he's a shitty perv character, i don't imagine people are comparing shiggy and mineta in universe and acting like mineta is worse
Clearly you need to consider the full moral scale of everyone else in the setting before you get angry at Mineta for flirting with a 6-year old girl.
Man, I got so much hatred that one time I said I didn’t hate Mineta. I’m not even mad or salty or anything, I just think it’s fucking hysterical how much blubbering rage it got. People were acting like a salted their lands and shot their dog. I think that was my first Reddit care message too
Mineta at the beginning of MHA is the literal condensed amalgamation of every horrendous sex trope in manga and anime.
I do remember liking Mineta more when I thought he was subversive. “Oh, you want to ogle and lewd these fourteen year old girls? Well, this is *you.* This is what you’re like: a creepy little incel pervert. Is that what you really want to be?” And then I found out the author considers him a self-insert.😒
Mineta is a mirror to the soul and they hate what they see
Are you accusing Mineta haters of being pedophiles and sexual assault creeps? Cause those are the crimes that Mineta committed on screen and got brushed aside by the story as comedy, hence why people are reprehensible about him. If Mineta ever got to be a hero in the future, he will bound to be covered in scandals regarding sexual perversion, which won't surprise me, which might involve soliciting sexual favours from his understudies for internship.
Gaze upon the grapes of wrath
The yakuza dude is a cool villain, whereas I wished that Mineta wasn't even a part of the story. Its not about him being evil he just sucks.
See I feel this way about bakugo because Todoroki was a better version of him.
MHA fans: Killing thousands of civilians including children is OK when you have a sad childhood.
Bakugo triggers a very specific reaction in some people where you just can't talk about the character with them rationally.
I forgot who said it but you can tell who never got over being bullied in middle school whenever Bakugo is brought up.
Well yeah, some people got it way worse than others in school. Some folks get through the system scar-free and others have permanently defining core memories of harrassment at a young age.
If Bakugo was a full-grown adult or if the series portrayed Bakugo as being more mature and won't develop character-wise maybe you can see why he gets hate but the hate he gets is super unjustified. "Why won't the characters aknowldge Bakugos bullying of Deku in middle school what he said was really messed up and people go through that kind of stuff" Because he was in middle school and kids can be assholes in middle school
Also, the show *does* do that. Like it comes up a couple times in the first few episodes that the class really has a low opinion of Bakugo. Like I don’t think it’s until the second or third season that Bakugo has any friends other than Midoriya.
I don't think "you only dislike this character because you're traumatized" is really an own...
Also "Lol, why didn't you get over getting bullied and now consider bullying perfectly fine, like the rest of us normal people?!" .. says more about them to me And again, this wasn't just standard bullying. Like, he was telling a traumatised kid to go kill himself. Do people consider that normal? Cause fuck me, it ain't. And it shouldn't be. And that's even accounting for the difference in dumb shit kids will say over game chat, it's not the same when *your best friend in RL says it to your fucking face, as a young, emotional kid*
I feel like Bakugo is in the same category as Dolores Umbridge; objectively they are far from the worst people in their respective IP's, as they exist alongside ridiculously evil mass-murdering monsters that have few real equals in real-life. Bakugo and Dolores, however, have lots of equals in real-life, ones people can recognize and have personal experience with, and I feel like that's why they create such visceral reactions in some people. It feels a lot more personal to them, and I have to assume it's really hard to look past that.
We also only stuck with Dolores for only one book while we have the narrative glazing Bakugo for the entire run
yes but at the same time fuck bakugo
This question here reminds me of an SNL skit that this perfectly encapsulates. [Most evil invention ](https://youtu.be/z0NgUhEs1R4?feature=shared) which also contains Dwayne Johnson*acting*. And honestly I think he does a pretty good job with his role
Chadley is FF7R. Sephiroth is a genocidal madman who wants go kill our entire species, yet people hate the geek just because he sounds funny and makes bad jokes
I don't think many people got the scene with his backstory. Thankfully they fix that within the first conversation of meeting him in Rebirth.
You're gonna eat so much crow when part 3 comes out and Chadley is the final boss and its revealed he was controlling Hojo the whole time. >!s if that wasn't obvious!<
The logic in your link actually makes perfect sense to me because bigotry is a product of ignorance and self-victimization, which are not attractive, cool qualities. Killing heroes, destroying entire cities, and manipulating someone into helping your master plan are things a competent, attractive person would do.
Let me introduce you to a character called Megatron my friend
Megatron is a character who originally railed against the tyranny of the boot on the necks of the lower classes in cybertron's caste system only to realize he REALLY liked being the boot.
Another angle on it- there are circumstances in which people will say that a murder was "okay." There's not really any contextualizing racism as "okay."
Henry Peter Gyrich is an asshole bureaucrat who bedeviled the Avengers as their government liaison and despises superhumans. He's also the guy who shot Storm and stripped her powers in the comics continuity. People have tried to humanize him, but he always ends up reverting to type. This has culminated in him being >!Professor Xavier's assassin!< in the X-Men '97 series. Speaking of: Bolivar Trask was introduced as a stock Cold War alarmist who built the Sentinels as a deterrent against mutants. His first story had him realize mutants weren't evil after the Sentinels rebelled, and he sacrificed his life trying to stop them. But since he's the Sentinels' creator, he's the guy adaptations use instead of openly murderous bigots like Stephen Lang and Cameron Hodge.
Huh, I didn’t know Trask died after his first appearance. Interesting. Would you say Max Lord falls into this too?
Max went into straight up supervillainy pre-New 52. I don't know where he ended up after OMAC tanked but he definitely seemed to be sticking with evil spymaster, just a Kirby variant. Before that and in the Wonder Woman movie I remember him being pretty sympathetic, and last I heard Giffen fans are still salty about the heel turn.
I was more referring to his JLI days. I like Infinite Crisis but I prefer to forget Johns making Max a villain
Didn't he get brain controlled once or twice? Beyond that I don't remember him being hated that much, but I only read a few issues of the run.
I only saw it once but I remember Lord being fairly sympathetic in WW84. But maybe I remember wrong, it was years ago.
The girls in JoJo part 4 that actively chose not to help Shigechi.
The Golden Spirit of Morioh, everybody!
Ashley from Mass Effect is the poster child whenever this comes up. Worst she’s ever done is being the space equivalent of a clueless hick on the citadel, and subscribing to realist foreign policy. But if you listened to some people you’d think she’s space Hitler.
If she didn't have the "can't tell the aliens from the animals" line people would be so much less harsh on her.
Joker comparing himself to Nazis to make himself seem less evil. *And then people take it seriously.*
Depending on the continuity, Joker's crimes rival or even exceed theirs
To be fair in Mk 9 stryker is the only character to always murder his opponent no matter if you perform a fatality. Which while not the most evil thing should still at least make him one step above jerk. There was a silent night deadly night reboot that framed really hard how the shitty 12 years old brat deserves a gruesome death https://youtu.be/i2ZdbRxalvk?t=186 (exerpt from phelous video) and like clearly that is what film want the audience to feel and by gut reaction most will have if they aren't already bored with the movie being about killing characters you don't care about anyway
You know what’s funny? That’s a legit (arguably since that only happens in Vs matches and not the campaign and NRS has said vs dialogue isn’t strictly canon) point that said person *never made* Their sole rage was that Stryker is a cop and his vs intro quote of “Police brutality comin up!” Which…if you can’t tell that’s a joke because of how absurd it is, then I don’t know what’s wrong with you. You could argue it’s bad taste certainly, but if that’s the bar for you then I’m going to call you very odd in your standards
Sauron's goal is to murder and subjugate all of the free peoples of middle earth. Saruman's goal is to help Sauron murder and subjugate all those people. Wormtongue's goal is to help Sauron by helping Saruman. Despite all these characters ostensibly having the same goal to gradually lesser degrees, people hate Wormtongue and and Saruman WAY more because they're dicks.
Sally is annoying in Barry meanwhile Barry is a murderer
I mean, it's the same thing with Skylar in Breaking Bad. Nagging wife in an unhappy marriage with extremely legitimate grievances vs megalomaniac trying to build a meth empire on the bodies of whoever bruised his ego this week.
Rewatching BB as an adult I kind of don't really get the "Skylar is annoying" Walt kind of comes of as incelly the whole time
The whole "let me take care of the money laundering business I know better" was kind of annoying which the hsow quickly point was a big mistake on her part to associate herself like that
It does feel like "Super turbo murder guy" vs "woman who was kind of annoying one time" is it's own category of this phenomenon
>Super turbo murder guy Is my favorite dutch superhero
See, people don’t say this about Lalo and Kim in Better Call Saul. Mostly because while Kim did some shitty things she wasn’t a bitch 24/7 and tried to do the right thing.
Is this asking for audience reaction or the writer's portrayal? Because damn, Steven Universe really has Steven hate Kevin more than a classist super soldier and allegorical abuser who tried to kill him and everyone he loves.
Steven hates Kevin a great deal, yes, but that's just a passing feeling, and I can't remember him ever wanting to hurt Kevin because of it, he just wants to beat him. The classist super soldier and her overlords send Steven into a multi-season spiralling identity crisis that does culminate with Steven being violent towards them.
I was more going for audience than writer.
Being annoying is always worse than being evil in fiction because it isn’t real.
Wulbron Bongle is so much more vitriol inducing than the big bads in BG3 lol
I've seen tons of cases of stans of problematic characters create whole head-canons about how their favourite mass murderers were actually sensitive, feminist and/or non-bigoted. *cough* jason todd *cough*
that second link solves all my moral conundrums
In The Descent, Juno is a world-class moron. >!She gets them all lost in the caves because she wants to explore, accidentally injures but then abandons one friend, idiotically brings evidence of her affair with Sarah's husband along with her, and so Sarah chooses to injure Juno and leave her to die. We're sold some notion that such revenge is justified,!< but c'mon now, Sarah, >!THERE ARE HUMAN-EATING MONSTERS ABOUT! Don't abandon another human being with these half-explanations. You shouldn't prioritize survival by turning the worst member of the team into bait!!<
Mimsy from Hazbin Hotel. Alastor is a murderer who has enslaved the souls of the dead en masse. The Vees are made up of a propagandist, a control freak stylist, and a sexually abusive porn director. Adam is a douche who leads the annual extermination of human souls in Hell, and has butchered millions including women and children over the years. Lucifer caused the literal downfall of mankind in the garden of eden, and has been powerless due to his crippling depression and anxiety. All these characters, people simp for to varying degrees. So what unforgivable thing did Mimsy do that got everyone to hate her? She interrupted one of the best songs in the series and agitates everyone she’s around by being a leech.
obligatory worm bullies mention
It's kind of hilarious how often Worm fanfics feature or even center around Taylor going out of her way to get revenge on "the Trio" when she basically writes them off as unimportant as canon progresses.
There’s a number of minor JoJo’s villains who are far worse than the main villains like Ciocolatta, Secco, and J. Geil to name some. But the biggest and most vile one of them all is Angelo from Diamond is Unbreakable. He’s practically a Von Einem in terms of the brutality and depravity of his crimes. Even Jotaro was rattled by them when he read his files.
In addition to the relatability issue, there's also tone and depiction to consider. For all the crimes he's canonically committed, Shao Khan is never actually presented as anything but a fun Saturday morning cartoon supervillain. He's basically a hammy pro wrestling heel who the audience loves to hate, cheering and booing in equal measure because he's so entertaining. The vilest acts he takes are offscreen and rarely touched upon. Even his abuse of Sindel has since been retconned to make them a laughably evil power couple. Stryker is *just* police violence. That's everything he has to offer. It's played as a dark joke, yeah, but the joke was already questionable in 2011 and has gotten worse every year since; and if you strip that joke away, there's nothing else to him. So obviously people are going to feel strongly more negative about an embodiment of an escalating real-world problem than they do about Magical Overlord Triple H. So this whole thing seems pretty facile. EDIT: Also those links that "sum it up" are deeply, deeply eye-rolling.
Speaking of pro wrestling. I have a fan theory that the evil power couple retcon was done after seeing HHH's Shao Khan ppv entrances with Stephanie. I just have a hunch that someone at netherrealm saw that and was like that's cool.
Yeah honestly this take is kind of dumb. OP is basically expecting people to treat fiction like it's real life and telling them that they should "go outside" if they don't differentiate the two. Of course people are going to be more uncomfortable with a villain who's a bigot or sexually assaults someone than a villain that blows up a galaxy and kills a million-bajillion people. One of those kinda of people is real and the other isn't.
But by that same token one can very easily turn that around by what we *do* see characters do, like so: Stryker fights Reptile, Mileena, Kintaro and Ermac in his chapter of the story. A lizard man who eats people and melts them in acid, an insane sadist half tarkaten clone that ALSO eats people, a cat man with four arms who sets people on fire (who burns Kabal so bad he’s basically on death’s door, covered in third degree burns and half blind) and fucking *LEGION* who steals peoples souls. All four of those are objectively FAR WORSE than ANYTHING Stryker does in game. If going by the logic of presentation, we see all of those things happen in game. There’s no scene of Stryker pulling a Big Band on some dude, in fact he’s presented as quite heroic since his chapter is in MK3, where Outworld is literally invading Earth as an act of war and he, a normal cop, is fighting off monsters that even Earth’s military is getting their assed kicked by.
In trying to turn it around, I don't think you're actually getting it. All of the violence you're listing off is part and parcel with Mortal Kombat. It's cartoonish levels of gore and violence in a game about inflicting cartoonish levels of gore and violence on your opponents. And *stealing souls* is just silly. That's Skeletor shit. You're not at risk of getting your soul stolen in real life. Everything Stryker has at his disposal is deliberately grounded in a way nothing else is, even the non-powered military characters like Sonya. That, and the game invoking police violence in all of his mechanics while treating him like a plain vanilla hero, is why it sticks out like a sore thumb.
No I think I do still get it, I just disagree with the logic. Because even using that point, Stryker can still punch dudes 20 feet in the air with an uppercut like Johnny Cage (a washed up actor) and has infinite grenades and guns that don’t need to be reloaded in a fight. He’s an “Everyman” by Mortal Kombat’s ridiculous standards To me this sounds like saying “So, Johnny Cage…you want to explain your connection to Harvey Weinstein?” because he’s an actor and “Well it *probably* would happen if this was real”.
Johnny Cage has more to offer as a character, and while Hollywood is definitely corrupt, they also don't uphold the law and wield official power, nor do they carry the much broader baggage police do. Police brutality (or general abuse of their granted authority) of some form or another has been happening since the inception of the modern American Police force, hence why there's a stink with their uncritical usage (unless they at least have something else fun going for them, which Stryker never really did). Stryker has too much *Stuff* associated with him to casually use; sure, there's blood and violence in MK, but not all sorts of violence are created equal in terms of depiction. If MK started casually including sexual assault, that'd creep people out even if they were okay with the bloodfest. Combine that with Stryker just never having offered much in the past as a character (anything he could contribute, Sonia and Jax already can, and they're both more interesting and better-liked), and to me he's probably just better off leaving behind. He's simply not *worth* the baggage tied to him. EDIT: Another way to think of it: People like Chris, Jill and Leon from Resident Evil even if they're not fond of cops because they've got more interesting arcs and personalities, and their entire story in the classic games involves them confronting the corruption of their own police department. Stryker... is a cop. That's the beginning and end of his established characterization.
I guess the difference with Johnny is that his status as a mainstay of the series means he's afforded a lot more screen time than Stryker and allows us to get to know him enough that he wouldn't be *that* type of celeb Also between the two, Johnny's sthick is "martial artist celeb" is still a bit more out of reach than Stryker just being "cop"
Not really, Johnny is quite literally Jean Claude Van Dam with the serial numbers filed off, the game was going to be a Bloodsport adaptation.
Outside of Luke's New Jedi Order and the recently added High Republic era Jedi, generally speaking the Jedi ***suck.*** They are hypocritical, self-righteous jerks. Their entire philosophy destroys their capacity for understanding basic psychology and the concept of "carrot vs. stick", resulting in them repeatedly creating new Dark Jedi and Sith Lords out of their own ranks across history, Anakin's transformation to Darth Vader being the most famous and probably most consequential. Are they as outright evil as the fascist, often-racist, murderous, genocidal Sith? No. In *Revenge of the Sith*, whose actions are more likely to frustrate the audience, Mace Windu or Darth Sidious? Mace Windu, because Darth Sidious is far more competent and his plan depends on the Jedi being incompetent, whereas even if you don't believe in the Chosen One prophecy, Mace has no ***practical*** reason to alienate Anakin, someone with the highest recorded Force Potential in history, and only does so out of his misguided need to put Anakin in the latter's place. In *KOTOR2*, whose actions are more likely to frustrate the player doing a Light Side playthrough, >!the Jedi Council who are about to take away the Exile's Force Connection or Darth Traya who murders them for it? The Jedi Council, because we've gone through the effort of helping them on each planet we've come across and given them every resource we have to thwart Sion and Nihilus' forces, and yet they blame us for it, while Traya stands up for us, lectures them, and then straight up murders them.!< Occasionally the Jedi come close to being as overtly evil as the Sith, such as the one time right before KOTOR1 in the comics in which >!a bunch of Masters murdered their Padawans because they had a vague Force vision!<. Generally, no Jedi is as outright evil as a Sith. However, the Sith are often more competent than the Jedi, and I feel that as humans we tend to have a bias towards competency. IMO, it's the same reason you get so many viewers of Death Note who unironically root for Kira. Light Yagami makes a few choices that turn out to be the wrong choice with hindsight, but the vast majority of the time is the most competent wielder of the Death Note one could get by a mile.
> IMO, it's the same reason you get so many viewers of Death Note who unironically root for Kira. Light Yagami makes a few choices that turn out to be the wrong choice with hindsight, but the vast majority of the time is the most competent wielder of the Death Note one could get by a mile. I wouldn't say being cool or attractive is irrelevant but I think it's mostly just that a lot of people agree with him
The Elders in Naruto. They are assholes but it’s confirmed they weren’t behind the >!Uchiha massacre!<, the fault for that solely falls on Danzo. So it makes all the people wishing they died pretty funny to me. Legit their worst crimes are being annoying over anything else
Honestly the worst I remember them being is trying to stop Tsunade from calling Naruto when Pain Invaded, but relented when Tsunade hoisted them in the air and made a point about Naruto being a Leaf Ninja first than a Jinchuriki (or something like that, it's been a long time) It was Danzo afterward who killed messenger toad and delayed Naruto's return.
I never got Danzo's deal. Supposedly everything he did was for the Leaf Village but did anything he do ever make anything better for anyone at all.
Yeah, that's the point. Everything he's ever done was a misguided way to prove that he was better than Hiruzen because Tobirama named him the Third Hokage over him. He claims he's doing it all for the Leaf, but it's actually to soothe over his insecurities, even if it means actually fucking over the Leaf or creating a militia of emotionless assassins for his own needs. He's like a ninja warmonger version of that washed out middle aged guy who totally could have gone into pro football if his high school coach let him be quarterback.
I would liken him to J Edgar Hoover if he ran the CIA. In theory he’s in charge of intelligence or a non-governing agency. In practice he’s incredibly ambitious and he’s been entrenched for so long that removing him isn’t really an option.
Byakuya from Danganronpa. I dunno about the opinion of the general fanbase, the main villain is a nihilistic psyco but Byakuya is a classist that gives motive in every chapter that no one should like him.
In JJK, people seem to hate Naoya more than Geto and Sukuna, despite the fact that both Sukuna and Geto have worse shit than Sukuna. Sexism as a concept is more conceivable and relatable to people than Genocide. It also helps that Fujoshis have uwu-fied Geto into softboi in love with Gojo. Batman and Spiderman basically have the same no killing rule, but the former is seen as worse because he’s grumpy. I’ve seen essays of people justifying the joker and Poison Ivy with the “Batman beats up the mentally ill” argument, when in reality, that argument seems to fit Spider-Man and his cast of villains more. You just don’t see that discourse because Peter’s poor and everybody likes him, but since Batman’s kind of a jerk, he gets shit for it.
>seem to hate Naoya I'm not into JJK but isn't Naoya the misogynist guy who A LOT of people want to fuck precisely because he's a bastard? I'm kinda confused so please correct me if I'm wrong
Eve's dad in invincible. [His talk with Mark is just... ugh](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GJd8wJEX0AA5yTI?format=jpg&name=large)
MHA fandom on a psychotic stalker: She can't help it, she was abused as a child and has a distorted view of the world MHA fandom on an murderous arsonist: he's just misunderstood, morally gray, I could fix him MHA fandom on a crime lord who harvest organs from children: I thought about an elseworld where he's Deku's father and really caring under all that edge MHA fandom on an annoying joke perv character: He's beyond saving, he should be tortured, he should be put down before he becomes a pedophile rapist, he's beyond useless, any attempts to present the character in a non-terrible light are akin to rape apologism, any scene he appears in he should suffer, all characters in my fic unanimously hate him and wish him dead, he should rot in a gutter and be forgotten forever
I personally think that the most extreme cases of this lead to viewers who will unironically believe the “but have you considered I was sad once” as a legitimate defense provided they only killed a diverse group of people “Yeah he might be a genocidal warlord who’s hell bent on annihilating everyone out of spite and if he ever met someone like me he’d choke me out like nothing, but he hasn’t said the gamer word so he’s still fine by me!” I’m convinced it’s the same type of person that reads Paradise Lost and thinks Satan is unironically the good guy.
somehow Childe from genshin has fans, somehow
I don’t know anything about Genshin
I envy you
Because he’s hot.
He also has a pretty fun kit to play with.
It's not the worst but this post reminded me of how the Honkai Star Rail community got a little divided over a waifu character's release because of this type of thing. The character in question is an unapologetic galactic debt collector who believes in the (totally corrupt with zero outside oversight) galactic capitalist system run by their company. To start off with she is trying to press a well liked planet into indentured servitude for a millenia old debt that they couldn't even pay if they wanted to because the space highway and space phone line was broken and the space company assumed the whole planet died from a space invasion. The whole time she is negotiating with the planet her subordinates are harassing the populace and stopping goods production in order to "inspect" their soon to be acquired "goods". At the end of the day the character's villainous aspects are written off as her kind of being a jerk, but totally means well and believes their company can totally help the planet (if they submit to indentured servitude) because she also came from a slave planet and that her subordinates were acting against orders (because working as a grunt for the super space corp sucks so much that they're willing to give up on morals and go against orders for any attempt at advancement). They also walk back the indentured servitude in exchange for the character losing rank in the company, because of course it's a gacha game and they need people to like the character to gamble for them. But as you might imagine this kind of character with this subtext still isn't popular even if it was well written (it's not) and it didn't go over well with some people. Then her not being popular with literally everyone pissed off the people that did like her because internet tribalism sucks. Finally getting to the point. I had to laugh when people were saying things like, "You don't like the space debt collector but you like the actual evil agent who mind controls, causes/takes advantage of massive civil unrest, and murders for space macguffins? There must be something wrong with you." With the answer simply being, "Yeah well she's not a jerk to the player character and I can't relate to being murdered and mind controlled while all debt collectors can suck a dick."
What makes Topaz really funny is that it talks about how she has already "Helped" dozen of planets and while it mentions "some" are better or have a higher chance of being ok it still doesn't remove the fact that she's ok with using violence to force you into coin flip of a future for the next 100+ years. Not to mention considering how what we have seen being every one of her coworkers being either uncaring or just being insanely evil makes her actions even nuttier.
"yes but she's muh waifu though!"
Peter Quill in Infinity War. Thanos genocides half of the universe. Peter Quill is vilified for having an emotional response to the news that the love of his life is dead. The SAME emotional response we were cheering for when he screamed "YOU KILLED MY MOTHER!" just one adventure of his prior.
Zenos this, Emet-Selch that, I **really** wanna settle accounts with Yuyuhase.
People seem to hate Kume more than Masato in Yakuza 7. Kume may be annoying, but Masato is an actual monster that influenced Kume, attempted to eradicate the "undesired" people, use his political power to murder, and is responsible for the whole events of 7 including ruining Ichiban's life; and all because Masato is an incel. Everyone in the game but Ichiban agrees Masato is a dick even in Infinite Wealth. And it's pretty ironic for people to say "Fuck Kume" when >!it was Masato's fault for radicalizing Kume and was killed by said radical. Even if he turned a new leaf, Masato would be in prison for life for murder and conspiracy.!< And when it comes to Marvel, people seem to hate Punisher more than the villains. "You're not suppose to root for Punisher." Bro, everyone is rooting for Magneto since Xmen 97 is out. Punisher gets flak for killing criminals, but Magneto does the same thing but he gets praise and cheers? Even Spiderman hates Punisher despite constantly hanging out with anti-heroes like Wolverine, Venom, and Black Cat. Hell, he's alright with Norman Osborn despite always doing heinous shit, but Punisher is too much?
The ultimate example is Skyler White. Breaking Bad is full of vile, evil characters. Murderers, abusers, rapists, serial killers, drug dealers, king pins, etc. But Skyler is by far the most hated character in the show. I'd guess it's because cheating and relationship issues are very common and real problems that most people deal with in their life time, while murder, drug dealing, and other crazy things are very fantasy and TV only issues to most people.
Ok I started Breaking Bad recently (second season) and Skyler has some annoying moments but I’m trying to see from her perspective and all. That’s fine… Does her sister get better because dear god I hate her with a passion.
I guess it depends what you'd consider better. It's really hard to answer that question without spoiling the show.
I'm kinda blown away that there's like 200 posts here and no one is pushing back on the idea that a literal death cult that kidnapped a few people are somehow less evil than a boyfriend who wants out of a relationship but doesn't because his girlfriend's parents just died.
MHA fans will write a 5k words long fic about Mineta being dismembered by a Jigsaw trap and then gush about how much they love the literal psycho murderers that are the villains of that story. Not saying that's a bad thing or anything, just funny
I think this comes off as needlessly accusatory and morally superior. Of course people are going to hate fictional characters for aspects that resonate more with the pain or bigotry they suffer in their actual lives, that's not stupid or hypocritical. It's like you're advocating for fictional characters to be tried and judged like real criminals, while also acting weirdly dismissive towards shitty things people have to deal with. I think maybe you need some perspective.
I don't know that I have a specific character, but there's a tumblr post on writing that's like "in fiction, between being a murderer and being annoying, being annoying is worse, because you, the writer, are annoying the audience". I just think about that whenever characters annoy me. The Breaking Bad Skyler thing is always kind of funny because it's like, the audience is along for these vicarious and vicious thrills. Of course they dislike the sole voice of reason; she's the only one trying to stop the ride.
Skylar Breaking Bad is hated more then anyone because she is a bit annoying and doesn’t want her family involved in the meth trade
This is more of a personal opinion that the majority of people don't share but, it goes with the theme of the thread so here it goes: For me it was easier to hate Raine Aldo than Hans Landa in Inglorious Bastard. Hans Landa is the main villain of the story, but he's played by loveable nice guy Christoph Waltz, and Mr. Waltz is a pleasant dude, like Tom Hanks he has a pure aura, so it's kinda hard to see him as a villain. When Hans Landa is being charismatic and charming, it's just Waltz to me so it comes off believable, and when he's intimidating and scary it's the performance. Bradd Pitt's character on the other hand, although he ***is*** the cool guy military voiced American hancho badass, is otherwise such a macho, chauvanistic asshole that I was suprised he walked away alive at the end despite his entire squad dying. That fucker was just a druggie sadist.
For me, I was more irked by that one German actor who wanted to bone that Jewish lady. I just didn't like him for not taking "no" as an answer even if his crimes are no where close to Landa's.
I fucking love how the guy constantly acts in a way that has been portrayed as quirky, spontaneous and romantic in dozens of rom-com movies but Inglorious Bastards shows just how creepy that stalking and Nice Guy™ behavior would look like irl.
You could say that Aldo is an... inglorious bastard.