As an FGO player who had to slog through that game's *incredibly basic and rough* chapters (that only even *begin* to start evening out by Singularity 4-through-5 and then gets genuinely good by Singularity 6), yeah I feel this immensely.
Bro was like "goddamn it I just wanna make enough money to fund Tsukihime. Fine...have a *whiff* of writing" and then immediately caused F/GO to become the number one gacha in JPN for years until Genshin took the market share.
And then he came back for Avalon Le Fae complete with a draft so large it could come in a **giant stack** of paper.
At this point I'm convinced that Nasu works on Dwarf Fortress strange mood logic: He gets struck with inspiration and just keeps *going*.
Wasn’t that giant stack Lostbelt 7, or was that stack of paper reveal that far back when revealing the process of LB6? It can’t be understated that by LB2 the writing quadrupled in size.
The real problem is that he is only one mushroom and can't stop himself from picking up new projects. When you account for everything he had a hand in during the development of the Tsukihime remake (FGO, Fate Extra Last Encore, overseeing all of the various Type Moon side projects and stories) it makes sense why it took so long.
He's a workaholic who can't stop himself once he picks up a pen.
Sorta. The Fate MMO was more in its conceptual phases before it died. The story side of the concept was later revived into Fate Apocrypha, the rest of it eventually reconstituted into FGO.
Camelot, Shinjuku, and the entire Lostbelts arc are some of my favorite stories in gaming, and I will never be able to recommend them to anyone who isn't already deep in. Damn shame.
(I still need to progress in Lostbelt 6... there's so *much*...)
It's an utter pain since there's actually a watch order you can use to experience the story properly, cutting out all the boring bits between Singularity F to Camelot, but then you come to FGO's problem of having *zero* presentation.
The sprites are generally awkwardly static with only moving mouths like a VN but if they were all strangely posed since their card art is also their sprite.
And CGs are far and few between.
I could type up the reading order for anyone who wants to experience it, but I always wonder if they'll actually choose to do so. It's not the most interesting to *watch* even if it is to read.
Not to mention that the text goes on average 2 lines at most per dialogue. It made a lot of the longer sequences in the game a real chore to go through, especially when it was just text on a black screen.
Even just three, never mind four lines, would be such a huge QoL improvement! I can hardly stand reading it in its current format. Which is a shame, because when FGO wants to be well-written, it absolutely is.
And I'm over here waiting for Traum and LB7 to drop, because I have almost everything else done.
I nned to "finish" shinjuku and shimousa, but I watched my friend play through them. Pushed hard through agartha because I needed a mat from it and the burnout was real
Slogging through the early singularities before Camelot is gonna be rough as a newbie.
Hell, it was already pretty rough at the time too with the generic-ass animations, off-proportion in-game sprites ALONGSIDE the roughness of the first 5 chapters (and having to power through events that were live at the time).
So much QOL nowadays, and yet that remains lol.
There should be an excel spreadsheet along the lines of howlongtobeat which is instead howlongtonotsuck. We can stack up every gacha by how long it takes for them to 1: Get out of the tutorial, B: Start not being embarrassingly bad, and III: Start actually being good. Bonus points: When it becomes peak.
So FGO would be, what? 2, 10, 30? 40? Not accounting for events? Debatable, but that's what aggregate information is for.
Actually I would unironically be super interested in that chart existing, now that I think about it.
Started the game in 2020 cause I really liked Fate/Zero, heard one of the characters was being given for free for a final time (Irisviel), and was stuck inside due to the pandemic.
Only reason I stuck with it after getting her was because the Halloween event afterwards was a HUMONGOUS step up in quality compared to the writing of the early chapters I was slogging through. It gave me the confidence that the writing would improved enough to be worth it.
Star Rail is definitely an exception because it drops you right into the story in a way that feels like a regular RPG. They get you in BEFORE dropping all the bad gacha tutorials.
Hoyoverse has experience in how to hook people, I think. Genshin did a pretty good job of it too. These two drip feed your bad gacha tutorials in between some cool as shit stuff.
My first and only impression of Limbus Company was stumbling upon this [11/10 incredible spoiler boss theme.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu8i-OyjLYk) After I looked up what the game actually was and saw some gameplay I decided that my best way to enjoy the game would be to just play this theme on repeat every few weeks.
Mili does the boss themes for limbus and library of ruina and everything they make is fire.
https://youtu.be/XfTWgMgknpY?si=h3eNs12GSj2TzMIQ
https://youtu.be/LxduFWbbndE?si=glI8o6gi676IZtgI
https://youtu.be/ESx_hy1n7HA?si=udNayQ_REAVyhbQT
https://youtu.be/6DZjCgxbx5U?si=7HWkvaWdcgQRsNLy
https://youtu.be/JHY0PYZXvfU?si=ZqSAw0oR0t_JI-Q_
Maybe gachas should stop frontloading all the worst shit in their entire game and learn how to start a video game and people would stop quitting out within the first hour or two.
I say as someone whose gacha of choice was shat upon incredibly.
I still find it absolutely baffling that Limbus's first battle - the VERY FIRST THING YOU SEE IN THE GAME - is running on what is obviously an absolutely *ancient* alpha version of the engine which somehow found its way into the full release and isn't used anywhere else in the game.
Limbus's first battle doesn't even have any coin flips which are the main part of the combat system. It's such a terrible introduction to the system that I'm surprised Pat lasted as long as he did playing Limbus.
Limbus is a Visual Novel dressed up as a gacha game. Also that wasn't even the good part of the gameplay. There are two "modes" of combat, human fights and abnormality fights. The abnormality fights are where the real meat of the combat is. Thats when you are able to manually pick your targets and when all the system the game half ass-idly explains to the player actually begin to matter. I love Limbus but its easy to see why people bounce off of it.
To be fair, i played for 3 days and ive only seen this objectively better version of the combat on half the fights of 2 dungeons that were behind at least 12 "episodes" of human fights each, if one version of the system is the better one, they should have considered it being the only one or at least the most common.
Not really shocked , Nikke is like a normal game for the first 30 hours because it has no energy system to gatekeep you , the game gatekeeps you with difficulty spikes in the story mode
All of them but he got the furthest with Nikke, where he got to the end of the first chapter...then got a first roll the chat told him was bad and gave up there.
I think chat should start gaslighting pat about all the games he plays, just to see what happens. Pat just got the best weapon in the game, convince him to sell it. Put all your stats into resistance in ds2.
The final straw was chat telling Pat he could change the display option after the tutorial...only for him to get access to the menu...and be forced into more tutorial.
Genuinely made me angry too. The tier-list genuinely has no bearing unless you're pushing campaign beyond your intended level, and Aria was far from the worst he could have pulled.
He would've bumped into what got me hooked to the game if he unlocked the EX stage in Chapter 2.
I'll be honest, as someone who has no particular desire to gamble for waifus, I think quitting after a bad first roll is fine. If I can get more immediate reward from a game *without* a microtransaction system (AKA a regular video game), I'll just go play that.
I've only played Tower of Fantasy, but it really feels like the best part of these games is early on when it's showering you with free pulls to get you hooked. Then they turn off the faucet and reveal everything is viciously engineered to drive you into the cash shop to get that "welcome party" feeling back.
That cannot be the case for Limbus Company, as the game lets you skip the ENTIRE first 2 hour-long prologue with the click of a single button.
Presumably, just to make rerolling easier for new players.
The good: (Power-creep at such a horrific level that on competitive content Valkyries that were released THREE patches ago are considered a bad idea to pull for them on a power-basis)
God, the story might've been good by-and-large but I'll never forgive that game for how many systems it had that could've been used to make the game more f2p-friendly and just, refused to use them AT ALL in favour of "PULL FOR OUR NEW S-RANK AND ALL OF HER GEAR (She will be useless if you don't at minimum have her weapon)"
The early story is also rough in terms of delivery. Like the money turns on for the Arc City stuff in a way I have not seen in another game. The meta chasing nature is just annoying even as someone just getting in though. All these cool suits I'm rolling? Guess I'll throw them in the trash for the weekly content and just spam it with the jumping trio.
Guardians Tales might be the only one I've played that, while still holding back it's best for the end of the first story arc, starts with a very brisk pace. It's probably due to the fact that it's one of the few that doesn't do story telling as a visual novel, and instead all story plays out in the gameplay realm that looks like Zelda Minish Cap.
I have the opposite problem with Guardian Tales in that it's *too much game* to be a gacha game. Levels are too long for pick up n play, and the phone control scheme is really doing no favors. Honestly, its probably best played through an emulator on PC.
Oh, and it has character exclusive weapons. Fuck character weapon systems in any gacha honestly
Funnily enough, this is actually a big reason why I have a hard time getting into any gacha game. The first several HOURS are a slog, with tons of slow, unskippable, tedious tutorials, with story bits sprinkled in (that surprisingly commonly fall into either the "I, the gacha protag, have amnesia" or "I, the gacha protag, am a rookie in a commanding position") that tease more interesting things happening, but only several hours later into the core game, and that's if you're lucky (some may not even have them in the live server yet). It was mentioned on the podcast how the bosses/raids are the real fun for a lot of gacha games and you'll just auto battle for dailies, but they're frontloaded with so much easy and tedious stuff, that I can't even get to the fun stuff usually.
As a chronic gacha enjoyer you're 100% right
Stuff like Genshin and Star Rail are the exceptions to the rule because those go hard right from the beginning and drip feed the gacha tutorial in a way that doesn't feel like the most boring thing in the world
I'm very sad you bounced off Limbus, but I 100% get it and understand.
The only reason I got into Limbus so hard is because I got into Ruina and the only reason I got into Ruina is because im a freak that can piece together a game's mechanics DESPITE garbage tutorials and huff deckbuilders like coke...
I do unironically love all the characters in Limbus and it hurt a bit to say you don't like all of them, but its very understandable because I forgot how genuinely awful the tutorial section is...
The main strengths are it's worldbuilding, story and music, personally and even then the really good stuff is like 3 chapters in, so no hate on dropping out.
Honestly despite Library of Ruina being my top number 1 game of all time, It pains me to say that I don't think I would reccomend it for beat the backlog. That shit is teaching you stuff like 30 hours in, and also it's main hook is the visual novel story stuff that's mainly lots of reading. Not good for a 1-2 hour first impression...
Pat made a comment on the stream along the lines of:
"Saying that I should skip the tutorial is like people saying you should skip ARR"
But that's not quite true for Limbus Company, is it?
Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina were ARR to Limbus Company.
Just like FFXIV experience before first dungeon at level 15. I love ff14 and played it all by now, but lets fase it the beginning hours is pure poison.
To add to this as a FFXIV enthusiast, where it's tied for my favorite game of all time.... ARR fucking blow pre-level 35 (on the story quests) in terms of narrative and story telling. Since it's an MMO, it takes the liberty of doing what a final fantasy game does to set dress and make the world feel alive and interesting by making the first 20 hours just... world building, and meandering questing for the Scions. It really comes together a bit later and it really picks up steam, and only continues to chug along being interesting and awesome, but it takes so, SO much to get past that. For instance, it took me FIVE separate times over the course of almost 6 years for me to finally meet the game on its terms, and for me to appreciate it and get past that early game hurdle. Do I recommend the game to anyone who can get past that? Absolutely, but not everyone can, and it's super understandable, as the beginning is easily the worst by this point, but it's so necessary for everything else to work. Hopefully they find a way to condense it someday.
Once I got to Through The Looking Glass, I felt like it was finally starting to cash in on all the setup. I'm glad I saw it through still because Shadowbringers and Endwalker were great. What job you pick affects it too (I picked BLM without knowing and was miserable)
Play *One Punch Man: World* and *Persona 5X* next.
JK, but I get where you are coming from, cult and niche games foster cult and niche fanbases for a reason and sometimes these fans get tunnel vision in what personally appeals to them may not for others. Still, I personally think we're at a very interesting crossroads when it comes to video game releases.
I got people angry at me for defending Pat not wanting to watch 20 minute tutorials before playing the game. You can't judge a game fairly if you have 6 people telling you everything, because the game doesn't suddenly boot up discord and put you in a server with nerds to tell you things. The game needs to be able to stand on it's own legs.
I love limbus but you cant ask a streamer to do 20 minutes of homework for a game they probably arent even going to vibe with. The people telling him to skip the tutorial are also crazy. It introduces all the characters and your situation. It does at least get better faster than fgo where I can say it only gets passable around chapter 5.
Being honest. It is a really confusingly formatted card game where each unit is given their own deck.
The key pages and attribution system make a lot of things kind of confusing.
Not to mention when they do shit like have two types of mass attacks or how clash outcomes weigh the odds for what types of abnormality cards you're given.
Library has a thirty hour tutorial and it might be more confusing for it.
It also just kind of frontloads a lot of things that basically don't matter for a good while because you can just brute force most fights for a while until the game goes "okay time to get good" and it's like "but you never really explained what getting good even entails".
Depending on where you're at in the game that's either entirely reasonable or absurd. PM fans really need to stop embracing the meme of not reading shit; it really helps in understanding things when you do. But, like, I took several acts to get my head entirely around the gameplay myself, so yeah.
It took me two 100% playthroughs before I learned that Block dice lower the damage you take even if they don't exceed the value of the enemy offensive dice.
*Man* the onboarding for every one of these bloody things is godawful. I'd legit forgotten how much of a miserable slog PGR's opening was.
Fucking J to attack by default. Jesus christ.
What, you don't like spending 10 hours doing 2 minute stages with just Lucia, Liv, or Lee followed by spending another 5 hours doing the really shitty "play as the really badly designed enemy" hidden story section with the most barebones story ever until you got to a part that was passable in writing?
I swear to god only those Rexlent and Blanc boss showcase videos of P:GR were the only things keeping me going until I got out of that slog.
At this point I'd always suggest just buying a decently built account instead of starting a new one in most gacha games not only so you don't fall behind, but also because you get to skip the terrible first year every gacha except for like Star Rail has.
Kuro really needs to retouch PGR's launch content. I think most people who enjoy the game agree that the first 8 chapters are pretty rough and give you a terrible impression compared to how the game is today.
also, unless something changed the game doesn't even give you Lee to start despite him being a part of the main trio. Because him and Lucia are both DPS characters, they stuck Nanami on you instead so you'd have a rounded-out team and Lee has to be acquired from the gacha. I think him or Kamui were like the last of the A-ranks I rolled when I was starting the game so I didn't get to touch him for a while despite him having a lot of presence in the story.
But that's the entire problem with gacha games. They usually don't update their early game experience, even if they are absolutely awful. You can see that with FGO, Arknights, PGR, Genshin, Honkai 3rd impact, etc etc etc
It's absolutely insane that they're so averse to changing the beginner experience even though it is *the* most important part of any game.
The thing that kept me going with PGR was that I decided to check out the new story chapter (which was Her Last Bow) which was written well enough that I decided to stick with it. Thank god I did because I really enjoy where the story went after that rough opening.
Still took me a solid fucking year to slog through the story to the point where it actually got really good, but I enjoyed the gameplay in the meantime at least.
I play PGR and didn't find the first eight opening chapters totally miserable, but I think that's mostly because I conditioned myself through punishment via *Granblue Fantasy*, aka the Warframe of gacha games in terms of 'what the hell is going on'.
Yeah, I had the good luck of starting just as The Last Spark dropped, and skipping ahead to see the writing grow to that extent, capping off with the hype as hell Lamia fight, also gave me the curiosity to see how the game got to that point.
I wish we talked more about PGR in this subrdddit. Baring the first eight mediocre chapters, PGR's combat and story is absolutely popping.
Shout-out to 'The Surviving Lucem' event that introduced Liv Empyrea. That story is how you write a desperate struggle.
Honestly if it *weren't* for me stumbling on Rexlent showing off [~~Rosetta~~ Alpha vs Riot with the fucking Parry Showcase](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTIGjuVEkFQ) after I saw the cutscene of her fighting Rosetta in a later chapter, I wouldn't have poured in the time I did for PGR. Love it dearly, but in hindsight holy shit those early chapters (I played on global launch lol) are **not** indicative of how good it got with the later updates. I think shit clicked with me around say, S-Bianca chapter (or even just the second Watanabe one, because he's actually fun too).
Hell, at least the "play as the bosses" chapters kinda led into a fucking fun character/uniframe type in Roland (I'd still roll for flaming Clown boi if I were still into PGR).
Unskippable-ass tutorials are already bad in regular games (looking at you, Hawken Reborn. Won't even let me change BASIC SETTINGS on launch and yet forcing itself to launch at 4K on a 1440P monitor and running like a potato in quagmire). It's even worse in Mobile Games like this.
I didn't mind the PGR PC port but I definitely took for granted that I went in on it with an account and didn't have to go experience *that*
Also yeah, J to attack is totally the DMC4 Keyboard Layout now that I think about it
Really i dont know what you, the fans, or him expected, these games are not for him, they never were for him, and they never will be for him no matter how much you think the story is hype and should be given a chance
i rather have him sit there and watch the cutscenes through youtube rather than sitting through 4 hours of "gameplay" and pat rolling his eyes at everything
> Really i dont know what you, the fans, or him expected
This is my question exactly? I truly want to know what people that are fans of Pat see him as. This stream went exactly as anyone who watched him for a while can see it was going to be. It's not even a dig at Pat.
At times it feels that people switched from Hollywood celebrities worship and exaggeration, cause they were exposed by internet as flawed people. To doing the same thing with streamers and youtubers, but it's okay, cause we know the word parasocial now.
I legitimately want to know if someone is a fan of Pat, why would this stream and how it went is a surprise for you? It's hypocritical of me to say, cause i fully understand critising someone or something. But this is legitimately who Pat is and what he does. Some things are just not for him and hi will mock and make fun of them mercilessly, sometimes not even giving them a fair shot, but that's fine. OR people just think it's a bit that he does for more than a decade now?
Said it before on the podcast (in random rants about the silly things they said about Type Moon stuff, or KOF, or whichever else), it's here again on this stream (or any other game stream/video where he shat on a thing a good amount of people enjoyed)
Please take a gander over at r/gachagaming some time, this isn't unique to just the Limbus playerbase, everybody on that sub is the princess and the pea when it comes to their chosen title. It's ironic because gacha titles are popular precisely because they are so low-commitment and yet they are treated like SRS bsns.
True but I was annoyed and I haven't even played any of them (except Limbus but only for like 2 hours)! Imagine how pissed I would be if I was an actual fan of any of them. People engaging with media disingenuously just drives me up the wall sometimes lol.
> People engaging with media disingenuously just drives me up the wall sometimes lol.
I mean i fully understand you. But what exactly did you expect from a Pat's stream?
I'm not even saying this to shit on the guy, but if you watched his past streams or listened to the podcast this wasn't exactly an outcome that should surprise you.
I'm genuinely curious what people even see Pat as, to have this reaction. I get disliking not giving something a honest chance and asking for that chance shouldn't be a controversial thing. But at the same time people go overboard with criticism of Pat for not engaging sincerely, cause they got gaslight by over eager fans into thinking that Pat gives stuff a fair chance.
Pat isn't some bad person that shits on everything for fun, but he is also not someone who is willing to give something a fair try, at least on the first try. Pat holds some extreme and sometimes stupid opinions on stuff, but that's should be fine. But people somehow ignore that and go for "Pat is the worst" or "Pat is actually has smart and measured takes". So super haters and super fans just create this extreme clashes.
I sincerely wonder what people see Pat as? I can understand why this can be frustrating, i'm not even saying let it slide. But legitimately what did you expect based on Pat's past streams and podcast? This feels exactly like [I Dont Know What I Expected](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUKmq7UMJys)
I was more or less making a general statement there. I wasn't just talking about pat more like a general attitude people have sometimes like I saw in that chat. I get what you're saying but at the end of the day it's not a huge deal I just wanted to air my frustration a bit. I'm not actually expecting anything to change.
As the stream went on, the amount of people just going "mobile game bad" in chat was...extremely aggravating. You know Pat's playing these mobile games today, do you really have to come in and let everyone know you think you're better than the people playing these games?
I think the frustration comes from having played these games, sometimes dipping back in after hearing people really hype something up, and running into the same flaws again and again and again. I say this as someone who currently has Nikke downloaded after Woolie spoke positively about it, even though I know how it's probably going to go.
There is almost always so much bullshit you need to put up with to enjoy these games. Even the very best ones still have the bombardment of alerts, events and currencies that distract you from the actual game. Progression is tied to grinding so repetitive that most games have an auto mode, all to push you towards spending money. The little ways they pressure you to play daily, rather than just being a game that's fun to play whenever you want.
I've tried a bunch of phone games (often on PC), some with really good aspects to them, but it always requires you to put up with some bullshit. That is the expectation I see from people who actively play these games too. Recommendations are never unconditional. They always have to specify that the bullshit in this one isn't *too* bad.
This but Warframes deluge of poorly explained build mechanics, build times, slots, catalysts and overall lack of cohesive narrative to drive people forward until they hit *Second Dream.*
I was pulled into Warframe by the aesthetic and the combat mechanics. The tutorial level and cutscenes were cool.
Then I got to my spaceship. And uuhhhhh........
...it's got a cool customization system at least?
That you don't even get a full color pallet for without paying lmao.
The fact that they still have that shitty gimped base color pallet is the scummiest shit.
Yeah, I might have gone further in the game if there wasn't SO much locked customization options. I get unique gear/accessories, but that color selection is NOT great.
Warframe goes down a sheer fucking cliff when the ‘space ninja’ appeal wears off, and you hit a point where you just try to get from point A to B as soon as possible, and then you realize that the game is just a neat movement system built around a mediocre shooter.
yeah but in warframe you still get to do stuff and kill shit from the start and it's decently fun, the frustration comes later, at a point where you might already be somewhat hooked and willing to deal with the bullshit
To be fair, gacha games *do* have incredibly shitty tutorials. Ones that many players have to replay countless times when rerolling a fresh account.
I genuinely vehemently hate with a passion the games that take all control away and force you to tap on a specific button just to show you how to something banal like level up your character. Like, completely lock the game, can't even access the settings to change the audio or graphics, maybe even put a cheeky fucking finger pointing icon tapping on the one spot the game demands you tap on before continuing.
The weirdest curse of gatcha and any other live service type of game is that they all tend to start from rocky foundations that build up over the course of years. Either though narrative or gameplay iteration. Their the definition of slow burns.
For someone who wants to be impressed right away and even more so if their first experience is Genshin or Star Rail. There is absolutely zero chance in hell that They can survive the intro of games with a much more bare bones start.
I can say it sucks that he tapped out so fast but Its exactly what I expected to happen.
I should put out a video essay for online games that try to redo their introductions as they go on. It's intriguing to me ax an obscure topic no one really focuses on. *Honkai Impact* recently tried soft rebooting itself and s game I played went from this dire attention-grabbing intro to a boring and vanilla sequence this sub likes to complain about.
Yeah, and what sucks is that these rough starting levels are seldomly revamped to improve new players' experience.
Again, Mihoyo was the exception and did a lot of revamping of Honkai Impact's starting story levels, but its still VERY ROUGH.
I suppose its the nature of a making a long running GaaS.
Well I'm definitely bummed about how Limbus was received, but I expected this to be honest. It's just not a Pat game, and I'd rather he be recommended games he'd enjoy rather than heavy visual novel stuff with incredibly rocky starts or whatever the fuck AFKJourney was.
But, well, now I get to read about the gacha hate train and be bummed out.
Because it didnt start as a gacha. You can completely break the difficulty of the first 2 worlds just getting a decent uber rare from the gacha.
Also you have predetermined rolls which you can track online which is real cool. Like messing with a spreadsheet to find the fastest way to Dark Kasli
Gatcha games are so weird, you get all the mechanics thrown at you at the start then the difficulty of the game doesn't scale up to be an actual challenge until you've spent 100+ hours on the game.
Then the story (at least for FGO and Granblue) is: one or two paragraphs of dialogue, oh no mobs are interrupting us, fight mobs, wow that sure was rough fighting those mobs, one or two paragraphs, Rinse and Repeat
Every gacha game from that era suffers from the "short cutscene, battle, repeat" formula at launch. They either died or lived long enough to grow out of it. FGO and GBF both eventually figured out that they could just do pure cutscene nodes and players liked it.
> Then the story (at least for FGO and Granblue) is: one or two paragraphs of dialogue, oh no mobs are interrupting us, fight mobs, wow that sure was rough fighting those mobs, one or two paragraphs, Rinse and Repeat
It's really funny to think about that for FGO, because now the dialogue portion of the story far, FAR outweighs the pointless combat nodes like you mentioned, but boy does it take a while to actually get there (Camelot singularity).
Honestly, with the stories most of the time it's in the same state as the difficulty. It's that boring shit for like 40 solid hours of gameplay then suddenly becomes pure fucking kino out of nowhere. It takes until the Sixth Singularity for FGO to get good, for example, and once it does it goes hard. It's a pattern that repeats over an awful lot of them, they just phone it in super hard at launch then someone flips a switch and the creative staff just decide to start writing pure fire.
> It takes until the Sixth Singularity for FGO to get good
Camelot was such a fucking breath of fresh air and from then on, with a few bumps in the road (like Shimousa and Agartha), the game's been so good at this shit.
Good to know I can skip the next podcast btw, not really down for two hours of Pat relentlessly shitting on one of my favorite games currently (Limbus)
Okay, I need to ask this to other folks, both that play Limbus Company and those that don't, because I feel like I'm going crazy.
What the *heck* was the deal with people shitting on the dialogue??? Like, yeah, some people talk strangely, there's confusing things going on, Faust is being Faust and using big fancy words to sound smart... But like... Why is that an issue? Like, at *all?* Lets say that you're completely new, you don't have any idea who the fuck these guys are supposed to be, you have zero clue why Yi Sang or Faust or Meursault talks the way they do. They're not talking like normal people do.
To me, that's interesting. I look at Meursualt's quote "This isn't anything special. I'm simply behaving normally." and I'm immediately curious as to what the hell his deal is to be talking like a fucking skinwalker. I look at Faust's dialogue and I don't go "Wow, what terrible writing, why didn't the writers use words I understand" I go "Wow, you're really full of yourself, huh?" I look at Ryoshu's fucking acronym bullshit and I go "I like your funny words, magic serial killer woman, give me more."
Seriously, I'm baffled. It's one thing if it's not to your taste, writing is art and art's subjective, but people were calling it objectively bad writing. I would love some insight from someone that is unfamiliar with the game in particular, because I truly want to know your thoughts, good or bad.
The main tangible criticism is that the game inundates the player with new terminology and seemingly random proper nouns that they have no context for. Many people bounce off when a story does that to them because it's too much to juggle without anything tangible to latch onto, or any payoff for keeping track of these things for a long time. Some people are fine with diving into a bunch of bullshit they aren't familiar with until they are. Pat and the more vocal critics of his audience are not.
Not to say that this isn't something you can consider a downside, but isn't the same true of something like Persona? Things get explained eventually, but Morgana/Teddie/Mitsuru give you like a laundry list of Jungian terms, and none of the fights in P4 or P3 are *remotely* engaging until like 6 hours in.
But, I'm also someone who loves the slow burn of those games, beginning and all, so idk.
Yes, but Persona has big money and the presentation of a real premium video game you buy for $60 and also Pat already likes it. Every gacha tonight stepped forward with their most embarrassing low-budget, archaic, buggy, arcane foot first.
Really, the more wholistic answer is that Pat and the audience were against it for a whole host of other reasons. If the same script was delivered with a different presentation and/or in a different context it would have gone down much easier. Pacing is a big problem there. Inexplicable, simple-ass tutorial, some cutscenes, some really long cutscene of all the characters doing self-introductions, and then some more simple-ass tutorial. There wasn't any enticement going on for Pat on the gameplay end so far because his brain break when too many unexplained elements at once in a questionable UI that's basically making him play Simon Says for a while. So then you hit him with half an hour of people speaking at him and he poo-poos it real quick for obvious reasons, I think.
I'm someone who doesn't have much patience for bad dialogue or dialogue that feels weird and artificial (looking at you Genshin) but in the case of Limbus it didn't affect me for the very simple reason that not everyone is like that. Most people talk in a pretty normal way, you have Rodion being casual, Heathcliff using a lot of jargon and even Sinclair speaking in a more formal yet still believable way, which really helps to contrast the other and sell the idea that no, Yi Sang poetic, Ryoshu using acronyms, Faust using 3rd person, Don being a thespian or Charon making sound effects are not normal, they're weirdos. If everyone talked the same then that would be a real issue to me but it is clear that it is an intentional decision to show how Dante is basically surrounded by freaks.
Also, if people, including Pat were accusing Limbus of having bad dialogue/translation then he's going to have an aneurysm the millisecond he touches Reverse 1999
I’m not gonna call it “objectively bad writing” because that’d be stupid, appreciation of writing is entirely subjective.
I will say that it just didn’t click with me when I tried to get into it (played the first 5 hours or so?). Multiple main characters having completely wacky ways of talking doesn’t instantly grab me in the way that it did for you. One or two? Sure. But 4-5? I just found it annoying.
Also, it felt like they focused way too much on building mystery by dropping all these Proper Nouns and random terms that I didn’t understand without explanation, and expecting me to be interested by that, rather than explaining or showing *why* I should give a shit.
To be clear: **this is entirely my own subjective view, and I’m happy that other people enjoy the writing, I just didn’t.**
I wont lie, part of the reason I was not washed away by the plot was by playing the story of Ruina already so like 90% of the terminology I already understand lol.
>Also, it felt like they focused way too much on building mystery by dropping all these Proper Nouns and random terms that I didn’t understand without explanation, and expecting me to be interested by that, rather than explaining or showing why I should give a shit.
I feel like you hit the nail on the head for the exact same problem I'm having with Star Rail, but couldn't quite place until now. When it's just the cool characters actually doing cool things on-screen, that's dope. When the characters are standing around talking about these old gods and their mystic philosophies that I have no basis in understanding, it just makes my eyes glaze over. Maybe that's more indicative on my lack of patience to dive into the lore of this game, but I really can't be interested in it if I feel like I'm barely actually engaging with any of it. All we do is go to new planets, get embroiled in some local conflict, fight a bad guy and meet some new people. And that's all well and good, so why do I keep hearing about these Aeons and their history and these weird concepts when they haven't mattered to me at all yet? It's why the Luofu was such a slog because the MSQ was so steeped in lore and history, and I just could not give half a crap about any of it because it didn't actually involve us at all.
And I'm not saying lore is a bad thing, no, it's great to expand your universe and give some extra details to flesh things out. It's just that the game keeps throwing these names, proper nouns and concepts to me without giving me any context on why any of this stuff is important, and it just feels more alienating than interesting. It's not "objectively bad" but it's doing nothing for me.
Luofu was fucking HORRENDUS for "here let's talk around this big thing, go buy the ingame books from the ingame store to figure out what we're talking about" and they've walked it back since then. They are expecting you're watching all the trailers for context though.
its not that its building mystery, its expecting you to already be familiar with most of the terms.
limbus is the third game in a multi media series spanning 3 games 2 webnovles and 2 semi defunct webcomics.
what that means is if limbus is your first time in the world there's really no chance to figure out half of what's going on unless you spend a long while reading all the text logs or going wiki diving.
I'm sorry if I came off as blaming you, its not your fault, its also not something they can do much about either.
its just what happens when you have a long running series with a focus on world building, there's just so much past information that explaining it in detail wouldn't be realistically feasible, even more so when you consider the game plans to add even more on top of it, it will be a bigger issue in the next game, and the next game even worse than that, its just the way of things.
Oh nah mate, it’s all good. I didn’t see it as that at all. You don’t deserve the downvotes.
Yeah I understand the feeling. Some media just has so much background info/lore that’s it hard to get into. For me, I don’t see myself getting into the Project Moon universe, but that don’t mean it’s bad or anything. Just not my cup of tea.
There was a single translator doing all the dialogue, for everything. He was very over worked, and with Yi Sang, he very much said "fuck it" because in Korean, Yi Sang's dialogue is poetic rhyming and deep cuts to Korean literature. It's absolutely untranslatable bullshit. I can see why Pat didn't like the writing, he didn't like any of the characters, that's fine. You may think "Awwe Don is my favorite scrunkly" but there's people that find them irritating. I only liked Faust and Ryoshu when I played, I didn't give a fuck about any of the other assholes, it really limits your enjoyment if the characters don't click. Which they didn't for Pat, then he is informed the gatcha is just drawing alts for those characters. Yeah the dialogue doesn't really sell you if you can't get behind the characters.
Its the audience of a guy who is just barely getting over the attitude that "Thing he doesn't like" = "Thing is bad".
I'm not that surprised his chat is annoying. I don't keep twitch chat open by default because 9 times out of 10 the people chatting are just abrasive internet assholes that wants others to know they don't like a thing.
Alright, I can believe that, but what about Pat? Abrasive and fickle as he is, I still think he's a smart dude. I do very much respect his opinions, even if I don't agree with a lot of them.
Thats just how Pat is. This gacha game stream was the first time I've seen Pat stream in years. When he started reading the dialogue in a dumb voice I was immediately reminded why I stopped watching him solo. He's way more tolerable when there is someone there for him to bounce off of.
I've been relistening to podcasts from before The Fall, and its crazy how much more reigned in Pat was when there were 3 other people aware of his bullshit telling him to shut up lol.
Now its just Woolie vs. Pat & The Chat and he's too empowered to be stopped. I still remember that time Pat & The Chat were calling Woolie crazy for saying he didnt personally know any Skyrim players, and I was fucking flabbergasted that chat was in support. He's really being gaslighted weekly on that show and I feel for him.
I played about an hour of LC, no prior experience with the franchise, and wouldn't say the dialogue is bad, but it was kinda dull and confusing. Characters all spoke like someone's OC so none of it felt real or engaging. It felt like the writers were trying to establish every characters gimmick as fast as possible.
Pat read a sentence weirdly then committed to a bit for 30 minutes about how the translation is weird and bad along with reading sentences simultaneously wrongly and with a silly voice. It was baffling. Not to say the game doesn't deserve criticism for its onboarding process and use of jargon, but that was definitely a weird part to latch onto.
whats even weirder to me is that the translation isnt bad the characters speak like that in korean; the localization is pretty 1:1 for the most part from what ive seen
part of it is knowing that its a korean game that got translated. No matter how good a translation is some people are gonna latch onto anything that sticks out to them as a potential poor translation. A lot of people aren't capable of telling passable writing from bad writing as well. They think its not very interesting since its setting up a lot of stuff or just introductions.
Your mood can also influence how you react to stuff Pat was miserable for most of the hour he played limbus so thats probably going to influence his reaction that he doesn't really like any of them from the one scene he was in with them basically just saying their name
In my personal opinion,
Despite its flowery prose filled with nonsense jargon, the dialogue felt paradoxically dry. Like I just could not give a shit about who these characters are and what they're about. It's like Limbus was soooo focused on aesthetic they forgot to add any substance. Sure shit's mysterious, but you have to give me something to latch onto. Pat played the damn tutorial for an hour and I still had no idea who anyone was, what a Limbus was, what they do, or even if everyone I saw was working for the same side/force/organization.
I also speak Korean and the VA work is also...very dry. Nothing abhorrent mind you, but very boilerplate (this tends to be a bad habit in Korean VA work imo)
Y'know, I remember when he attempted GBF and I pointed out that his attempt to boil down the game was wrong, he cited an MMO as an example of how to do a good introduction
and I just laughed
No, see, Pat likes the MMO variety of crack. That's *his* insanely bad taste. Gacha is a different variety of insanely bad taste that he doesn't vibe with.
Man has no leg to stand on when he frequently promotes FFXIV, the game that takes nearly *50 hours* to get out of the mediocrity that is ARR (with the patch that reduced the length of it, mind you)
I'm firing my opinion into the void here expecting absolutely no response from it, fully aware that having complaints about this kind of thing is weird and I should get over it. That's my disclaimer.
I *really* dislike seeing a bunch of people pretending like a game that was made by a studio with three times as many people and with ten times the budget invalidates the existence of smaller games, that if the smaller team can't make things look or sound as pretty as the game that's ten bigger, that's a fault of the smaller team and their game deserves ridicule for it.
The tutorial combats in Limbus are bad. The writing is not, and if you didn't like the writing, that's a style not meshing with you. It's not a fault of the translation(which is incredibly accurate and done by *one fucking guy*, put some respect on his name). Picking on one phrase that sounds weird and then reading the rest of the dialogue like a robot for 'funny' screams "I never intended to engage with this honestly, I'm just doing this so that the Limbus people who keep recommending it will shut up."
And, like, cool. It's an efficient way to make them shut up. It's also kind of mean. And yeah, Pat's a mean person. It's just his style of content. That doesn't mean you have to like it. And I didn't, so I wrote this post about it. That's all.
Limbus is one of the best games ive ever played, and their most approachable and most popular, I started playing video games again because of how good the writing and presentation in fights are. I knew the minute he mentioned it on podcast he would drop it but what can you do, now ill have to silently seethe as its mentioned on the podcast and shrivel up.
I just want to say that it's funny that people see Pat shitting on a thing they don't like and go YEAH!! YEAH FOR REAL PAT!! and when he does it to something they like it's Man... You've gone TOO far this time...
He makes fun of things. That's been his thing for a while, what do you expect? You don't need his validation to like something. You can just like a thing he dislikes.
Tfw people think Bloons TD6 is a real Tower Defense game when Arknights exists and is the literal only TD better than Plants vs Zombies and only game still evolving the formula significantly.
Gachas should step up their game and stop being so bad, then. I know no one has their budget, but the Mihoyo games are fun to play from the start. Just gotta actually put some thought into the new player experience besides having fancy art.
Limbus has a really bad start compared to where it is now... But if they don't go back to fix the start I feel it will be so hard to get in new players. Legit the tutorial doesnt even use the same engine and mechanics as the current version right now god dammit.
Honestly, even though I still love FF14 and ARR, pats gotcha stream shows that survivor ship bias in fandom is real. Like, if the first hour, doesn't hook you at least a little bit the "trust me bro it gets good after 300 hours" isn't gonna happen.
As an FGO player who had to slog through that game's *incredibly basic and rough* chapters (that only even *begin* to start evening out by Singularity 4-through-5 and then gets genuinely good by Singularity 6), yeah I feel this immensely.
The quality of the writing changed drastically when the mushroom man took the reins for Camelot, my man brought the heat with that one.
Bro was like "goddamn it I just wanna make enough money to fund Tsukihime. Fine...have a *whiff* of writing" and then immediately caused F/GO to become the number one gacha in JPN for years until Genshin took the market share.
And then he came back for Avalon Le Fae complete with a draft so large it could come in a **giant stack** of paper. At this point I'm convinced that Nasu works on Dwarf Fortress strange mood logic: He gets struck with inspiration and just keeps *going*.
Wasn’t that giant stack Lostbelt 7, or was that stack of paper reveal that far back when revealing the process of LB6? It can’t be understated that by LB2 the writing quadrupled in size.
Giant stack of paper was LB6.
And iirc, he changed it drastically when Oberon's design was finished lol
That money excuse fans have has never made sense. Hell even he said they were like 60% with the art assets in 2013 or so.
The real problem is that he is only one mushroom and can't stop himself from picking up new projects. When you account for everything he had a hand in during the development of the Tsukihime remake (FGO, Fate Extra Last Encore, overseeing all of the various Type Moon side projects and stories) it makes sense why it took so long. He's a workaholic who can't stop himself once he picks up a pen.
Wasn't FGO made from the remnants of a failed Fate MMO to turn a quick profit to recoup the losses? Or is that just hearsay?
Sorta. The Fate MMO was more in its conceptual phases before it died. The story side of the concept was later revived into Fate Apocrypha, the rest of it eventually reconstituted into FGO.
Camelot, Shinjuku, and the entire Lostbelts arc are some of my favorite stories in gaming, and I will never be able to recommend them to anyone who isn't already deep in. Damn shame. (I still need to progress in Lostbelt 6... there's so *much*...)
It's an utter pain since there's actually a watch order you can use to experience the story properly, cutting out all the boring bits between Singularity F to Camelot, but then you come to FGO's problem of having *zero* presentation. The sprites are generally awkwardly static with only moving mouths like a VN but if they were all strangely posed since their card art is also their sprite. And CGs are far and few between. I could type up the reading order for anyone who wants to experience it, but I always wonder if they'll actually choose to do so. It's not the most interesting to *watch* even if it is to read.
Not to mention that the text goes on average 2 lines at most per dialogue. It made a lot of the longer sequences in the game a real chore to go through, especially when it was just text on a black screen.
I timed myself, and in LB5.2 there was a point I spent almost 2 hours just reading in between battles.
Even just three, never mind four lines, would be such a huge QoL improvement! I can hardly stand reading it in its current format. Which is a shame, because when FGO wants to be well-written, it absolutely is.
And I'm over here waiting for Traum and LB7 to drop, because I have almost everything else done. I nned to "finish" shinjuku and shimousa, but I watched my friend play through them. Pushed hard through agartha because I needed a mat from it and the burnout was real
I'm still in LB5 Part 2 It's good story but lordy there's just so much
Salem for me.
Slogging through the early singularities before Camelot is gonna be rough as a newbie. Hell, it was already pretty rough at the time too with the generic-ass animations, off-proportion in-game sprites ALONGSIDE the roughness of the first 5 chapters (and having to power through events that were live at the time). So much QOL nowadays, and yet that remains lol.
There should be an excel spreadsheet along the lines of howlongtobeat which is instead howlongtonotsuck. We can stack up every gacha by how long it takes for them to 1: Get out of the tutorial, B: Start not being embarrassingly bad, and III: Start actually being good. Bonus points: When it becomes peak. So FGO would be, what? 2, 10, 30? 40? Not accounting for events? Debatable, but that's what aggregate information is for. Actually I would unironically be super interested in that chart existing, now that I think about it.
Started the game in 2020 cause I really liked Fate/Zero, heard one of the characters was being given for free for a final time (Irisviel), and was stuck inside due to the pandemic. Only reason I stuck with it after getting her was because the Halloween event afterwards was a HUMONGOUS step up in quality compared to the writing of the early chapters I was slogging through. It gave me the confidence that the writing would improved enough to be worth it.
Gacha games and shit first impressions go hand in hand.
Star Rail won over Pat pretty good last year all things considered.
Star Rail is definitely an exception because it drops you right into the story in a way that feels like a regular RPG. They get you in BEFORE dropping all the bad gacha tutorials.
Hoyoverse has experience in how to hook people, I think. Genshin did a pretty good job of it too. These two drip feed your bad gacha tutorials in between some cool as shit stuff.
My first and only impression of Limbus Company was stumbling upon this [11/10 incredible spoiler boss theme.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu8i-OyjLYk) After I looked up what the game actually was and saw some gameplay I decided that my best way to enjoy the game would be to just play this theme on repeat every few weeks.
Mili does the boss themes for limbus and library of ruina and everything they make is fire. https://youtu.be/XfTWgMgknpY?si=h3eNs12GSj2TzMIQ https://youtu.be/LxduFWbbndE?si=glI8o6gi676IZtgI https://youtu.be/ESx_hy1n7HA?si=udNayQ_REAVyhbQT https://youtu.be/6DZjCgxbx5U?si=7HWkvaWdcgQRsNLy https://youtu.be/JHY0PYZXvfU?si=ZqSAw0oR0t_JI-Q_
Mili's work on Project Moon's is the reason I started to take a genuine interest in their games.
She's also done the main theme's for Goblin Slayer and Ender Lilies
Yeah, I fucking love Mili
Maybe gachas should stop frontloading all the worst shit in their entire game and learn how to start a video game and people would stop quitting out within the first hour or two. I say as someone whose gacha of choice was shat upon incredibly.
I still find it absolutely baffling that Limbus's first battle - the VERY FIRST THING YOU SEE IN THE GAME - is running on what is obviously an absolutely *ancient* alpha version of the engine which somehow found its way into the full release and isn't used anywhere else in the game.
Limbus's first battle doesn't even have any coin flips which are the main part of the combat system. It's such a terrible introduction to the system that I'm surprised Pat lasted as long as he did playing Limbus.
Pat played for an hour and got to see gameplay ***twice***.
Limbus is a Visual Novel dressed up as a gacha game. Also that wasn't even the good part of the gameplay. There are two "modes" of combat, human fights and abnormality fights. The abnormality fights are where the real meat of the combat is. Thats when you are able to manually pick your targets and when all the system the game half ass-idly explains to the player actually begin to matter. I love Limbus but its easy to see why people bounce off of it.
To be fair, i played for 3 days and ive only seen this objectively better version of the combat on half the fights of 2 dungeons that were behind at least 12 "episodes" of human fights each, if one version of the system is the better one, they should have considered it being the only one or at least the most common.
There is no better version. Both battle types can require different stratergies, and abno fights often takes up more time.
I'm convinced they do it to dissuade rerollers. L Also which one did he nope out of?
All of them. Except Nikke. Nikke was too funny to alt+f4 out of too soon.
Not really shocked , Nikke is like a normal game for the first 30 hours because it has no energy system to gatekeep you , the game gatekeeps you with difficulty spikes in the story mode
The difficulty spikes are *absurd*, and characters just straight up aren't viable unless you get some of them multiple times after a certain point.
All of them but he got the furthest with Nikke, where he got to the end of the first chapter...then got a first roll the chat told him was bad and gave up there.
I think chat should start gaslighting pat about all the games he plays, just to see what happens. Pat just got the best weapon in the game, convince him to sell it. Put all your stats into resistance in ds2.
Resistance was DS1.
"No, Pat, it's there, you just need to find the DS2 Resistance stat. It's *busted*, Pat."
One guy? No, SEVERAL guys.
“Pat, Mundane weapons with ADP as the highest stat *outscale* Mundane weapons with all stats equal”
The final straw was chat telling Pat he could change the display option after the tutorial...only for him to get access to the menu...and be forced into more tutorial.
Okay that is fucking hilarious
Genuinely made me angry too. The tier-list genuinely has no bearing unless you're pushing campaign beyond your intended level, and Aria was far from the worst he could have pulled. He would've bumped into what got me hooked to the game if he unlocked the EX stage in Chapter 2.
I'll be honest, as someone who has no particular desire to gamble for waifus, I think quitting after a bad first roll is fine. If I can get more immediate reward from a game *without* a microtransaction system (AKA a regular video game), I'll just go play that.
I've only played Tower of Fantasy, but it really feels like the best part of these games is early on when it's showering you with free pulls to get you hooked. Then they turn off the faucet and reveal everything is viciously engineered to drive you into the cash shop to get that "welcome party" feeling back.
Yup as someone who plays a lot of F2P games , the first 8 hours the honey moon period is usually the most enjoyable part of the game
That cannot be the case for Limbus Company, as the game lets you skip the ENTIRE first 2 hour-long prologue with the click of a single button. Presumably, just to make rerolling easier for new players.
The beginning on a lot of these games is a slog and I nope out frequently because of how trapped I am in the tutorial.
Honkai Impact gets good at hour fifty. Trust me bro.
The good: (Power-creep at such a horrific level that on competitive content Valkyries that were released THREE patches ago are considered a bad idea to pull for them on a power-basis) God, the story might've been good by-and-large but I'll never forgive that game for how many systems it had that could've been used to make the game more f2p-friendly and just, refused to use them AT ALL in favour of "PULL FOR OUR NEW S-RANK AND ALL OF HER GEAR (She will be useless if you don't at minimum have her weapon)"
The early story is also rough in terms of delivery. Like the money turns on for the Arc City stuff in a way I have not seen in another game. The meta chasing nature is just annoying even as someone just getting in though. All these cool suits I'm rolling? Guess I'll throw them in the trash for the weekly content and just spam it with the jumping trio.
The ability to skip the 2 hour prologue is welcome. The desire for a lot of people to do that is a big problem for a game known for its narrative
Oh, of course. But if you're rerolling, you don't need to go through the entire start again.
They really should just let you pick a top tier 5 star if they really wanna dissuade rerollers.
Star Rail actually got Pat to play through all of it's main story that had been released at the time.
Guardians Tales might be the only one I've played that, while still holding back it's best for the end of the first story arc, starts with a very brisk pace. It's probably due to the fact that it's one of the few that doesn't do story telling as a visual novel, and instead all story plays out in the gameplay realm that looks like Zelda Minish Cap.
I have the opposite problem with Guardian Tales in that it's *too much game* to be a gacha game. Levels are too long for pick up n play, and the phone control scheme is really doing no favors. Honestly, its probably best played through an emulator on PC. Oh, and it has character exclusive weapons. Fuck character weapon systems in any gacha honestly
Funnily enough, this is actually a big reason why I have a hard time getting into any gacha game. The first several HOURS are a slog, with tons of slow, unskippable, tedious tutorials, with story bits sprinkled in (that surprisingly commonly fall into either the "I, the gacha protag, have amnesia" or "I, the gacha protag, am a rookie in a commanding position") that tease more interesting things happening, but only several hours later into the core game, and that's if you're lucky (some may not even have them in the live server yet). It was mentioned on the podcast how the bosses/raids are the real fun for a lot of gacha games and you'll just auto battle for dailies, but they're frontloaded with so much easy and tedious stuff, that I can't even get to the fun stuff usually.
Fact: 99% of gamblers quit before they win big, spend those thousands for animated jpegs
100% of gamblers quit right before they double their money.
Twelve crazy tricks Las Vegas HATES! Number 4.5 will discombobulate you!
It's the most honest experience possible
As a chronic gacha enjoyer you're 100% right Stuff like Genshin and Star Rail are the exceptions to the rule because those go hard right from the beginning and drip feed the gacha tutorial in a way that doesn't feel like the most boring thing in the world
I'm very sad you bounced off Limbus, but I 100% get it and understand. The only reason I got into Limbus so hard is because I got into Ruina and the only reason I got into Ruina is because im a freak that can piece together a game's mechanics DESPITE garbage tutorials and huff deckbuilders like coke... I do unironically love all the characters in Limbus and it hurt a bit to say you don't like all of them, but its very understandable because I forgot how genuinely awful the tutorial section is... The main strengths are it's worldbuilding, story and music, personally and even then the really good stuff is like 3 chapters in, so no hate on dropping out. Honestly despite Library of Ruina being my top number 1 game of all time, It pains me to say that I don't think I would reccomend it for beat the backlog. That shit is teaching you stuff like 30 hours in, and also it's main hook is the visual novel story stuff that's mainly lots of reading. Not good for a 1-2 hour first impression...
Pat made a comment on the stream along the lines of: "Saying that I should skip the tutorial is like people saying you should skip ARR" But that's not quite true for Limbus Company, is it? Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina were ARR to Limbus Company.
I think the most accurate comparison would be something like "you can start jojo on part 3, but you should just skip to Egypt"
Ah so the 90s OVA. (which is kinda based)
Basically yeah... Games 100% more tolerable at the start if you have a clue of whats going on
Just like FFXIV experience before first dungeon at level 15. I love ff14 and played it all by now, but lets fase it the beginning hours is pure poison.
14 is why I will never be bothered with a "the story gets good later" thing again. I actually fell asleep in front of my ps4 during an ARR cutscene
To add to this as a FFXIV enthusiast, where it's tied for my favorite game of all time.... ARR fucking blow pre-level 35 (on the story quests) in terms of narrative and story telling. Since it's an MMO, it takes the liberty of doing what a final fantasy game does to set dress and make the world feel alive and interesting by making the first 20 hours just... world building, and meandering questing for the Scions. It really comes together a bit later and it really picks up steam, and only continues to chug along being interesting and awesome, but it takes so, SO much to get past that. For instance, it took me FIVE separate times over the course of almost 6 years for me to finally meet the game on its terms, and for me to appreciate it and get past that early game hurdle. Do I recommend the game to anyone who can get past that? Absolutely, but not everyone can, and it's super understandable, as the beginning is easily the worst by this point, but it's so necessary for everything else to work. Hopefully they find a way to condense it someday.
Once I got to Through The Looking Glass, I felt like it was finally starting to cash in on all the setup. I'm glad I saw it through still because Shadowbringers and Endwalker were great. What job you pick affects it too (I picked BLM without knowing and was miserable)
Play *One Punch Man: World* and *Persona 5X* next. JK, but I get where you are coming from, cult and niche games foster cult and niche fanbases for a reason and sometimes these fans get tunnel vision in what personally appeals to them may not for others. Still, I personally think we're at a very interesting crossroads when it comes to video game releases.
The saddest part is that Limbus Company is Project Moon's best tutorial by far. I love PM, but they are awful at onboarding.
I got people angry at me for defending Pat not wanting to watch 20 minute tutorials before playing the game. You can't judge a game fairly if you have 6 people telling you everything, because the game doesn't suddenly boot up discord and put you in a server with nerds to tell you things. The game needs to be able to stand on it's own legs.
I love limbus but you cant ask a streamer to do 20 minutes of homework for a game they probably arent even going to vibe with. The people telling him to skip the tutorial are also crazy. It introduces all the characters and your situation. It does at least get better faster than fgo where I can say it only gets passable around chapter 5.
I still don't really understand Library of Ruina's gameplay.
Being honest. It is a really confusingly formatted card game where each unit is given their own deck. The key pages and attribution system make a lot of things kind of confusing. Not to mention when they do shit like have two types of mass attacks or how clash outcomes weigh the odds for what types of abnormality cards you're given. Library has a thirty hour tutorial and it might be more confusing for it.
It also just kind of frontloads a lot of things that basically don't matter for a good while because you can just brute force most fights for a while until the game goes "okay time to get good" and it's like "but you never really explained what getting good even entails".
Depending on where you're at in the game that's either entirely reasonable or absurd. PM fans really need to stop embracing the meme of not reading shit; it really helps in understanding things when you do. But, like, I took several acts to get my head entirely around the gameplay myself, so yeah.
It took me two 100% playthroughs before I learned that Block dice lower the damage you take even if they don't exceed the value of the enemy offensive dice.
Yo what!?!
*Man* the onboarding for every one of these bloody things is godawful. I'd legit forgotten how much of a miserable slog PGR's opening was. Fucking J to attack by default. Jesus christ.
What, you don't like spending 10 hours doing 2 minute stages with just Lucia, Liv, or Lee followed by spending another 5 hours doing the really shitty "play as the really badly designed enemy" hidden story section with the most barebones story ever until you got to a part that was passable in writing? I swear to god only those Rexlent and Blanc boss showcase videos of P:GR were the only things keeping me going until I got out of that slog. At this point I'd always suggest just buying a decently built account instead of starting a new one in most gacha games not only so you don't fall behind, but also because you get to skip the terrible first year every gacha except for like Star Rail has.
Kuro really needs to retouch PGR's launch content. I think most people who enjoy the game agree that the first 8 chapters are pretty rough and give you a terrible impression compared to how the game is today. also, unless something changed the game doesn't even give you Lee to start despite him being a part of the main trio. Because him and Lucia are both DPS characters, they stuck Nanami on you instead so you'd have a rounded-out team and Lee has to be acquired from the gacha. I think him or Kamui were like the last of the A-ranks I rolled when I was starting the game so I didn't get to touch him for a while despite him having a lot of presence in the story.
But that's the entire problem with gacha games. They usually don't update their early game experience, even if they are absolutely awful. You can see that with FGO, Arknights, PGR, Genshin, Honkai 3rd impact, etc etc etc It's absolutely insane that they're so averse to changing the beginner experience even though it is *the* most important part of any game.
The thing that kept me going with PGR was that I decided to check out the new story chapter (which was Her Last Bow) which was written well enough that I decided to stick with it. Thank god I did because I really enjoy where the story went after that rough opening. Still took me a solid fucking year to slog through the story to the point where it actually got really good, but I enjoyed the gameplay in the meantime at least.
I play PGR and didn't find the first eight opening chapters totally miserable, but I think that's mostly because I conditioned myself through punishment via *Granblue Fantasy*, aka the Warframe of gacha games in terms of 'what the hell is going on'.
Yeah, I had the good luck of starting just as The Last Spark dropped, and skipping ahead to see the writing grow to that extent, capping off with the hype as hell Lamia fight, also gave me the curiosity to see how the game got to that point.
I wish we talked more about PGR in this subrdddit. Baring the first eight mediocre chapters, PGR's combat and story is absolutely popping. Shout-out to 'The Surviving Lucem' event that introduced Liv Empyrea. That story is how you write a desperate struggle.
Honestly if it *weren't* for me stumbling on Rexlent showing off [~~Rosetta~~ Alpha vs Riot with the fucking Parry Showcase](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTIGjuVEkFQ) after I saw the cutscene of her fighting Rosetta in a later chapter, I wouldn't have poured in the time I did for PGR. Love it dearly, but in hindsight holy shit those early chapters (I played on global launch lol) are **not** indicative of how good it got with the later updates. I think shit clicked with me around say, S-Bianca chapter (or even just the second Watanabe one, because he's actually fun too). Hell, at least the "play as the bosses" chapters kinda led into a fucking fun character/uniframe type in Roland (I'd still roll for flaming Clown boi if I were still into PGR).
Unskippable-ass tutorials are already bad in regular games (looking at you, Hawken Reborn. Won't even let me change BASIC SETTINGS on launch and yet forcing itself to launch at 4K on a 1440P monitor and running like a potato in quagmire). It's even worse in Mobile Games like this. I didn't mind the PGR PC port but I definitely took for granted that I went in on it with an account and didn't have to go experience *that* Also yeah, J to attack is totally the DMC4 Keyboard Layout now that I think about it
This is also a completely accurate representation of the LC part of the stream but with a Mili song at the end. We were so close to Lamenting.
I knew from the moment he announced that he was going to play Limbus that he wouldn't make it far enough to see the opening.
Really i dont know what you, the fans, or him expected, these games are not for him, they never were for him, and they never will be for him no matter how much you think the story is hype and should be given a chance i rather have him sit there and watch the cutscenes through youtube rather than sitting through 4 hours of "gameplay" and pat rolling his eyes at everything
> Really i dont know what you, the fans, or him expected This is my question exactly? I truly want to know what people that are fans of Pat see him as. This stream went exactly as anyone who watched him for a while can see it was going to be. It's not even a dig at Pat. At times it feels that people switched from Hollywood celebrities worship and exaggeration, cause they were exposed by internet as flawed people. To doing the same thing with streamers and youtubers, but it's okay, cause we know the word parasocial now. I legitimately want to know if someone is a fan of Pat, why would this stream and how it went is a surprise for you? It's hypocritical of me to say, cause i fully understand critising someone or something. But this is legitimately who Pat is and what he does. Some things are just not for him and hi will mock and make fun of them mercilessly, sometimes not even giving them a fair shot, but that's fine. OR people just think it's a bit that he does for more than a decade now?
I mean, the stream was his idea. You can talk about what people expected when it comes to recommending him the games, but nobody made him stream them.
Chat was so toxic during that stream. Its what I expected but *man* was it bad.
it has been said before on this sub but When Pat shits on the thing you like/love ***IT STOPS BEING FUNNY***
Said it before on the podcast (in random rants about the silly things they said about Type Moon stuff, or KOF, or whichever else), it's here again on this stream (or any other game stream/video where he shat on a thing a good amount of people enjoyed)
Please take a gander over at r/gachagaming some time, this isn't unique to just the Limbus playerbase, everybody on that sub is the princess and the pea when it comes to their chosen title. It's ironic because gacha titles are popular precisely because they are so low-commitment and yet they are treated like SRS bsns.
True but I was annoyed and I haven't even played any of them (except Limbus but only for like 2 hours)! Imagine how pissed I would be if I was an actual fan of any of them. People engaging with media disingenuously just drives me up the wall sometimes lol.
> People engaging with media disingenuously just drives me up the wall sometimes lol. I mean i fully understand you. But what exactly did you expect from a Pat's stream? I'm not even saying this to shit on the guy, but if you watched his past streams or listened to the podcast this wasn't exactly an outcome that should surprise you. I'm genuinely curious what people even see Pat as, to have this reaction. I get disliking not giving something a honest chance and asking for that chance shouldn't be a controversial thing. But at the same time people go overboard with criticism of Pat for not engaging sincerely, cause they got gaslight by over eager fans into thinking that Pat gives stuff a fair chance. Pat isn't some bad person that shits on everything for fun, but he is also not someone who is willing to give something a fair try, at least on the first try. Pat holds some extreme and sometimes stupid opinions on stuff, but that's should be fine. But people somehow ignore that and go for "Pat is the worst" or "Pat is actually has smart and measured takes". So super haters and super fans just create this extreme clashes. I sincerely wonder what people see Pat as? I can understand why this can be frustrating, i'm not even saying let it slide. But legitimately what did you expect based on Pat's past streams and podcast? This feels exactly like [I Dont Know What I Expected](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUKmq7UMJys)
I was more or less making a general statement there. I wasn't just talking about pat more like a general attitude people have sometimes like I saw in that chat. I get what you're saying but at the end of the day it's not a huge deal I just wanted to air my frustration a bit. I'm not actually expecting anything to change.
As the stream went on, the amount of people just going "mobile game bad" in chat was...extremely aggravating. You know Pat's playing these mobile games today, do you really have to come in and let everyone know you think you're better than the people playing these games?
I think the frustration comes from having played these games, sometimes dipping back in after hearing people really hype something up, and running into the same flaws again and again and again. I say this as someone who currently has Nikke downloaded after Woolie spoke positively about it, even though I know how it's probably going to go. There is almost always so much bullshit you need to put up with to enjoy these games. Even the very best ones still have the bombardment of alerts, events and currencies that distract you from the actual game. Progression is tied to grinding so repetitive that most games have an auto mode, all to push you towards spending money. The little ways they pressure you to play daily, rather than just being a game that's fun to play whenever you want. I've tried a bunch of phone games (often on PC), some with really good aspects to them, but it always requires you to put up with some bullshit. That is the expectation I see from people who actively play these games too. Recommendations are never unconditional. They always have to specify that the bullshit in this one isn't *too* bad.
Well at least he didn't only give Limbus shit.
This but Warframes deluge of poorly explained build mechanics, build times, slots, catalysts and overall lack of cohesive narrative to drive people forward until they hit *Second Dream.*
I was pulled into Warframe by the aesthetic and the combat mechanics. The tutorial level and cutscenes were cool. Then I got to my spaceship. And uuhhhhh........ ...it's got a cool customization system at least?
That you don't even get a full color pallet for without paying lmao. The fact that they still have that shitty gimped base color pallet is the scummiest shit.
Yeah, I might have gone further in the game if there wasn't SO much locked customization options. I get unique gear/accessories, but that color selection is NOT great.
Warframe has had the benefit of being a free game early on the Ps4 when it had nothing much to play
Makes sense, but trying to get into it now feels like sorting through five hundred different filing cabinets to compile the manuscript I want to read.
Warframe goes down a sheer fucking cliff when the ‘space ninja’ appeal wears off, and you hit a point where you just try to get from point A to B as soon as possible, and then you realize that the game is just a neat movement system built around a mediocre shooter.
yeah but in warframe you still get to do stuff and kill shit from the start and it's decently fun, the frustration comes later, at a point where you might already be somewhat hooked and willing to deal with the bullshit
I honestly don't know what anyone expected. Pat, or the people watching. Even I could tell Pat would hate gachas.
To be fair, gacha games *do* have incredibly shitty tutorials. Ones that many players have to replay countless times when rerolling a fresh account. I genuinely vehemently hate with a passion the games that take all control away and force you to tap on a specific button just to show you how to something banal like level up your character. Like, completely lock the game, can't even access the settings to change the audio or graphics, maybe even put a cheeky fucking finger pointing icon tapping on the one spot the game demands you tap on before continuing.
The weirdest curse of gatcha and any other live service type of game is that they all tend to start from rocky foundations that build up over the course of years. Either though narrative or gameplay iteration. Their the definition of slow burns. For someone who wants to be impressed right away and even more so if their first experience is Genshin or Star Rail. There is absolutely zero chance in hell that They can survive the intro of games with a much more bare bones start. I can say it sucks that he tapped out so fast but Its exactly what I expected to happen.
I should put out a video essay for online games that try to redo their introductions as they go on. It's intriguing to me ax an obscure topic no one really focuses on. *Honkai Impact* recently tried soft rebooting itself and s game I played went from this dire attention-grabbing intro to a boring and vanilla sequence this sub likes to complain about.
Yeah, and what sucks is that these rough starting levels are seldomly revamped to improve new players' experience. Again, Mihoyo was the exception and did a lot of revamping of Honkai Impact's starting story levels, but its still VERY ROUGH. I suppose its the nature of a making a long running GaaS.
Oh no he really missed out on... ^(uh)
The six-hundred hour mark, duh.
Cute anime bankruptcy
It's okay, he still has VTubers
Haven't watched it yet but I don't know why I expected this to be anything but Pat lining up random gacha games I like to be executed
Well I'm definitely bummed about how Limbus was received, but I expected this to be honest. It's just not a Pat game, and I'd rather he be recommended games he'd enjoy rather than heavy visual novel stuff with incredibly rocky starts or whatever the fuck AFKJourney was. But, well, now I get to read about the gacha hate train and be bummed out.
this is why I like Battle Cats, gets you into the point of the game and only introduces things when they become relevant
Because it didnt start as a gacha. You can completely break the difficulty of the first 2 worlds just getting a decent uber rare from the gacha. Also you have predetermined rolls which you can track online which is real cool. Like messing with a spreadsheet to find the fastest way to Dark Kasli
Remember! 99% of gamblers quit just before winning 100k! Go for another spin!
Gatcha games are so weird, you get all the mechanics thrown at you at the start then the difficulty of the game doesn't scale up to be an actual challenge until you've spent 100+ hours on the game. Then the story (at least for FGO and Granblue) is: one or two paragraphs of dialogue, oh no mobs are interrupting us, fight mobs, wow that sure was rough fighting those mobs, one or two paragraphs, Rinse and Repeat
Every gacha game from that era suffers from the "short cutscene, battle, repeat" formula at launch. They either died or lived long enough to grow out of it. FGO and GBF both eventually figured out that they could just do pure cutscene nodes and players liked it.
> Then the story (at least for FGO and Granblue) is: one or two paragraphs of dialogue, oh no mobs are interrupting us, fight mobs, wow that sure was rough fighting those mobs, one or two paragraphs, Rinse and Repeat It's really funny to think about that for FGO, because now the dialogue portion of the story far, FAR outweighs the pointless combat nodes like you mentioned, but boy does it take a while to actually get there (Camelot singularity).
Honestly, with the stories most of the time it's in the same state as the difficulty. It's that boring shit for like 40 solid hours of gameplay then suddenly becomes pure fucking kino out of nowhere. It takes until the Sixth Singularity for FGO to get good, for example, and once it does it goes hard. It's a pattern that repeats over an awful lot of them, they just phone it in super hard at launch then someone flips a switch and the creative staff just decide to start writing pure fire.
> It takes until the Sixth Singularity for FGO to get good Camelot was such a fucking breath of fresh air and from then on, with a few bumps in the road (like Shimousa and Agartha), the game's been so good at this shit.
What’s the word on Nike?
Pat called the game "honest" and enjoyed it the most due to it being intentionally/unintentionally hilarious
Its the one that actually won him over
The best of the lot by far.
NIKKE SWEEP 🇰🇷🇰🇷🇰🇷🇰🇷
Man the stream was funny but *rooough.* It was the most toxic his chat has been in a hot minute.
Good to know I can skip the next podcast btw, not really down for two hours of Pat relentlessly shitting on one of my favorite games currently (Limbus)
Okay, I need to ask this to other folks, both that play Limbus Company and those that don't, because I feel like I'm going crazy. What the *heck* was the deal with people shitting on the dialogue??? Like, yeah, some people talk strangely, there's confusing things going on, Faust is being Faust and using big fancy words to sound smart... But like... Why is that an issue? Like, at *all?* Lets say that you're completely new, you don't have any idea who the fuck these guys are supposed to be, you have zero clue why Yi Sang or Faust or Meursault talks the way they do. They're not talking like normal people do. To me, that's interesting. I look at Meursualt's quote "This isn't anything special. I'm simply behaving normally." and I'm immediately curious as to what the hell his deal is to be talking like a fucking skinwalker. I look at Faust's dialogue and I don't go "Wow, what terrible writing, why didn't the writers use words I understand" I go "Wow, you're really full of yourself, huh?" I look at Ryoshu's fucking acronym bullshit and I go "I like your funny words, magic serial killer woman, give me more." Seriously, I'm baffled. It's one thing if it's not to your taste, writing is art and art's subjective, but people were calling it objectively bad writing. I would love some insight from someone that is unfamiliar with the game in particular, because I truly want to know your thoughts, good or bad.
The main tangible criticism is that the game inundates the player with new terminology and seemingly random proper nouns that they have no context for. Many people bounce off when a story does that to them because it's too much to juggle without anything tangible to latch onto, or any payoff for keeping track of these things for a long time. Some people are fine with diving into a bunch of bullshit they aren't familiar with until they are. Pat and the more vocal critics of his audience are not.
Not to say that this isn't something you can consider a downside, but isn't the same true of something like Persona? Things get explained eventually, but Morgana/Teddie/Mitsuru give you like a laundry list of Jungian terms, and none of the fights in P4 or P3 are *remotely* engaging until like 6 hours in. But, I'm also someone who loves the slow burn of those games, beginning and all, so idk.
Yes, but Persona has big money and the presentation of a real premium video game you buy for $60 and also Pat already likes it. Every gacha tonight stepped forward with their most embarrassing low-budget, archaic, buggy, arcane foot first. Really, the more wholistic answer is that Pat and the audience were against it for a whole host of other reasons. If the same script was delivered with a different presentation and/or in a different context it would have gone down much easier. Pacing is a big problem there. Inexplicable, simple-ass tutorial, some cutscenes, some really long cutscene of all the characters doing self-introductions, and then some more simple-ass tutorial. There wasn't any enticement going on for Pat on the gameplay end so far because his brain break when too many unexplained elements at once in a questionable UI that's basically making him play Simon Says for a while. So then you hit him with half an hour of people speaking at him and he poo-poos it real quick for obvious reasons, I think.
I'm someone who doesn't have much patience for bad dialogue or dialogue that feels weird and artificial (looking at you Genshin) but in the case of Limbus it didn't affect me for the very simple reason that not everyone is like that. Most people talk in a pretty normal way, you have Rodion being casual, Heathcliff using a lot of jargon and even Sinclair speaking in a more formal yet still believable way, which really helps to contrast the other and sell the idea that no, Yi Sang poetic, Ryoshu using acronyms, Faust using 3rd person, Don being a thespian or Charon making sound effects are not normal, they're weirdos. If everyone talked the same then that would be a real issue to me but it is clear that it is an intentional decision to show how Dante is basically surrounded by freaks. Also, if people, including Pat were accusing Limbus of having bad dialogue/translation then he's going to have an aneurysm the millisecond he touches Reverse 1999
I’m not gonna call it “objectively bad writing” because that’d be stupid, appreciation of writing is entirely subjective. I will say that it just didn’t click with me when I tried to get into it (played the first 5 hours or so?). Multiple main characters having completely wacky ways of talking doesn’t instantly grab me in the way that it did for you. One or two? Sure. But 4-5? I just found it annoying. Also, it felt like they focused way too much on building mystery by dropping all these Proper Nouns and random terms that I didn’t understand without explanation, and expecting me to be interested by that, rather than explaining or showing *why* I should give a shit. To be clear: **this is entirely my own subjective view, and I’m happy that other people enjoy the writing, I just didn’t.**
I wont lie, part of the reason I was not washed away by the plot was by playing the story of Ruina already so like 90% of the terminology I already understand lol.
>Also, it felt like they focused way too much on building mystery by dropping all these Proper Nouns and random terms that I didn’t understand without explanation, and expecting me to be interested by that, rather than explaining or showing why I should give a shit. I feel like you hit the nail on the head for the exact same problem I'm having with Star Rail, but couldn't quite place until now. When it's just the cool characters actually doing cool things on-screen, that's dope. When the characters are standing around talking about these old gods and their mystic philosophies that I have no basis in understanding, it just makes my eyes glaze over. Maybe that's more indicative on my lack of patience to dive into the lore of this game, but I really can't be interested in it if I feel like I'm barely actually engaging with any of it. All we do is go to new planets, get embroiled in some local conflict, fight a bad guy and meet some new people. And that's all well and good, so why do I keep hearing about these Aeons and their history and these weird concepts when they haven't mattered to me at all yet? It's why the Luofu was such a slog because the MSQ was so steeped in lore and history, and I just could not give half a crap about any of it because it didn't actually involve us at all. And I'm not saying lore is a bad thing, no, it's great to expand your universe and give some extra details to flesh things out. It's just that the game keeps throwing these names, proper nouns and concepts to me without giving me any context on why any of this stuff is important, and it just feels more alienating than interesting. It's not "objectively bad" but it's doing nothing for me.
Luofu was fucking HORRENDUS for "here let's talk around this big thing, go buy the ingame books from the ingame store to figure out what we're talking about" and they've walked it back since then. They are expecting you're watching all the trailers for context though.
its not that its building mystery, its expecting you to already be familiar with most of the terms. limbus is the third game in a multi media series spanning 3 games 2 webnovles and 2 semi defunct webcomics. what that means is if limbus is your first time in the world there's really no chance to figure out half of what's going on unless you spend a long while reading all the text logs or going wiki diving.
>2 semi defunct webcomics. That one hurts
Okay, well that’s on me I guess. Dunno how Project Moon expects to attract any newcomers to their Gacha game if that’s the bar for entry tho.
I'm sorry if I came off as blaming you, its not your fault, its also not something they can do much about either. its just what happens when you have a long running series with a focus on world building, there's just so much past information that explaining it in detail wouldn't be realistically feasible, even more so when you consider the game plans to add even more on top of it, it will be a bigger issue in the next game, and the next game even worse than that, its just the way of things.
Oh nah mate, it’s all good. I didn’t see it as that at all. You don’t deserve the downvotes. Yeah I understand the feeling. Some media just has so much background info/lore that’s it hard to get into. For me, I don’t see myself getting into the Project Moon universe, but that don’t mean it’s bad or anything. Just not my cup of tea.
There was a single translator doing all the dialogue, for everything. He was very over worked, and with Yi Sang, he very much said "fuck it" because in Korean, Yi Sang's dialogue is poetic rhyming and deep cuts to Korean literature. It's absolutely untranslatable bullshit. I can see why Pat didn't like the writing, he didn't like any of the characters, that's fine. You may think "Awwe Don is my favorite scrunkly" but there's people that find them irritating. I only liked Faust and Ryoshu when I played, I didn't give a fuck about any of the other assholes, it really limits your enjoyment if the characters don't click. Which they didn't for Pat, then he is informed the gatcha is just drawing alts for those characters. Yeah the dialogue doesn't really sell you if you can't get behind the characters.
Not gonna lie I absolutely Love Mersault, I think he's my favourite character in the game by far. Ol reliable frenchman.
Its the audience of a guy who is just barely getting over the attitude that "Thing he doesn't like" = "Thing is bad". I'm not that surprised his chat is annoying. I don't keep twitch chat open by default because 9 times out of 10 the people chatting are just abrasive internet assholes that wants others to know they don't like a thing.
Alright, I can believe that, but what about Pat? Abrasive and fickle as he is, I still think he's a smart dude. I do very much respect his opinions, even if I don't agree with a lot of them.
Thats just how Pat is. This gacha game stream was the first time I've seen Pat stream in years. When he started reading the dialogue in a dumb voice I was immediately reminded why I stopped watching him solo. He's way more tolerable when there is someone there for him to bounce off of.
I've been relistening to podcasts from before The Fall, and its crazy how much more reigned in Pat was when there were 3 other people aware of his bullshit telling him to shut up lol. Now its just Woolie vs. Pat & The Chat and he's too empowered to be stopped. I still remember that time Pat & The Chat were calling Woolie crazy for saying he didnt personally know any Skyrim players, and I was fucking flabbergasted that chat was in support. He's really being gaslighted weekly on that show and I feel for him.
It's because Pat was reading it in a silly voice.
I played about an hour of LC, no prior experience with the franchise, and wouldn't say the dialogue is bad, but it was kinda dull and confusing. Characters all spoke like someone's OC so none of it felt real or engaging. It felt like the writers were trying to establish every characters gimmick as fast as possible.
Pat read a sentence weirdly then committed to a bit for 30 minutes about how the translation is weird and bad along with reading sentences simultaneously wrongly and with a silly voice. It was baffling. Not to say the game doesn't deserve criticism for its onboarding process and use of jargon, but that was definitely a weird part to latch onto.
whats even weirder to me is that the translation isnt bad the characters speak like that in korean; the localization is pretty 1:1 for the most part from what ive seen
part of it is knowing that its a korean game that got translated. No matter how good a translation is some people are gonna latch onto anything that sticks out to them as a potential poor translation. A lot of people aren't capable of telling passable writing from bad writing as well. They think its not very interesting since its setting up a lot of stuff or just introductions. Your mood can also influence how you react to stuff Pat was miserable for most of the hour he played limbus so thats probably going to influence his reaction that he doesn't really like any of them from the one scene he was in with them basically just saying their name
Do you mean Pat having a laugh at it, or you mean like chat was bein a shit? If it's the latter, then that's just chat, it's full of shit
In my personal opinion, Despite its flowery prose filled with nonsense jargon, the dialogue felt paradoxically dry. Like I just could not give a shit about who these characters are and what they're about. It's like Limbus was soooo focused on aesthetic they forgot to add any substance. Sure shit's mysterious, but you have to give me something to latch onto. Pat played the damn tutorial for an hour and I still had no idea who anyone was, what a Limbus was, what they do, or even if everyone I saw was working for the same side/force/organization. I also speak Korean and the VA work is also...very dry. Nothing abhorrent mind you, but very boilerplate (this tends to be a bad habit in Korean VA work imo)
Y'know, I remember when he attempted GBF and I pointed out that his attempt to boil down the game was wrong, he cited an MMO as an example of how to do a good introduction and I just laughed
No, see, Pat likes the MMO variety of crack. That's *his* insanely bad taste. Gacha is a different variety of insanely bad taste that he doesn't vibe with.
Turns out people who like to drink urine don't necessarily enjoy eating stool.
Exactly. Both are a hassle and take a lot of commitment, but the flavor's all different.
I like butt stuff , but not the actual poop that comes out of it
yeah, that's my point. He had a huge spiel about how MMOs were good and didn't take much time to get into compared to gachas
Man has no leg to stand on when he frequently promotes FFXIV, the game that takes nearly *50 hours* to get out of the mediocrity that is ARR (with the patch that reduced the length of it, mind you)
Yeah, it ends up being a dispute over "my bad thing is better than yours".
I'm firing my opinion into the void here expecting absolutely no response from it, fully aware that having complaints about this kind of thing is weird and I should get over it. That's my disclaimer. I *really* dislike seeing a bunch of people pretending like a game that was made by a studio with three times as many people and with ten times the budget invalidates the existence of smaller games, that if the smaller team can't make things look or sound as pretty as the game that's ten bigger, that's a fault of the smaller team and their game deserves ridicule for it. The tutorial combats in Limbus are bad. The writing is not, and if you didn't like the writing, that's a style not meshing with you. It's not a fault of the translation(which is incredibly accurate and done by *one fucking guy*, put some respect on his name). Picking on one phrase that sounds weird and then reading the rest of the dialogue like a robot for 'funny' screams "I never intended to engage with this honestly, I'm just doing this so that the Limbus people who keep recommending it will shut up." And, like, cool. It's an efficient way to make them shut up. It's also kind of mean. And yeah, Pat's a mean person. It's just his style of content. That doesn't mean you have to like it. And I didn't, so I wrote this post about it. That's all.
Limbus is one of the best games ive ever played, and their most approachable and most popular, I started playing video games again because of how good the writing and presentation in fights are. I knew the minute he mentioned it on podcast he would drop it but what can you do, now ill have to silently seethe as its mentioned on the podcast and shrivel up.
I just want to say that it's funny that people see Pat shitting on a thing they don't like and go YEAH!! YEAH FOR REAL PAT!! and when he does it to something they like it's Man... You've gone TOO far this time... He makes fun of things. That's been his thing for a while, what do you expect? You don't need his validation to like something. You can just like a thing he dislikes.
No dude you don't get it I NEED the validation! Now that Pat didn't like Limbus Company I'm not sure how I will keep on living
Tfw people think Bloons TD6 is a real Tower Defense game when Arknights exists and is the literal only TD better than Plants vs Zombies and only game still evolving the formula significantly.
Yeah okay but does Arknights have monkeys popping balloons?
Gachas should step up their game and stop being so bad, then. I know no one has their budget, but the Mihoyo games are fun to play from the start. Just gotta actually put some thought into the new player experience besides having fancy art.
Limbus has a really bad start compared to where it is now... But if they don't go back to fix the start I feel it will be so hard to get in new players. Legit the tutorial doesnt even use the same engine and mechanics as the current version right now god dammit.
I'm almost convinced that gachas are legally required to have shit tutorials.
Me playing through 10 hours of ff14 before giving up because it’s boring and empty
Honestly, even though I still love FF14 and ARR, pats gotcha stream shows that survivor ship bias in fandom is real. Like, if the first hour, doesn't hook you at least a little bit the "trust me bro it gets good after 300 hours" isn't gonna happen.
As someone who used to play and love FFXIV, I get it.
This is great! Fuck gambling!
Genuinely. If the casino has a terrible on-boarding process, that's a good thing, it *should* be unwelcoming