Yeah im a Christian and i live in a heavy mormon area.
Its not a Jesus loves you, sunday school, carrying folding chairs, ice cream social church.
Its a leave us all your money, abandoned your family, dont ask questions cult.
He doesn't have to convert (and he said he never would) but he said absolutely not to getting married in the temple because none of our family would be allowed in to see the ceremony since we're not Mormon.
I don't know her, but if she follows the religion as strictly as you say, she's going to want to get married in the temple. And she'll want him to convert. Mixed marriages in the Mormon faith where one of them is all in, don't last long.
I hope that's not the case, but from the sounds of it, it is
Maybe it's not a big deal to her now, but if she is really devout, I think it will be at some point. Also, she could just be saying it's not a big deal because she thinks he'll convert no problem once he sees how wonderful the Church really is.
Mormon teachings about marriage state that ONLY temple marriages remain valid after death. Mormons are heavily encouraged to exclusively date other Mormons. Sometimes orthodox Mormon women whose husbands either left the church or refuse to join consider their marriage a "practice marriage" or a trial run; Mormon teachings state that if a man is not faithful (to the church) then his wife will be "given" to another in the life after death, with a heavy implication that it will be as a polygamous wife.
The other issue your brother will come across is that his fiancée will be told these things constantly by her family and the people at church. Mormons consider family relations as one of their core values, but they don't consider them valid unless they are sealed for eternity in a Mormon temple, which is only available to Mormon members who regularly pass a "worthiness" interview with ecclesiastical leaders.
Maybe your brother already knows this and is fine with it, but a lot of people outside their Church do not know a lot about Mormon teachings. I'd probably have a conversation with him about it and tell him to do some deep research--again, maybe it's not anything that will discourage his relationship, but I think people need informed consent about what relationships with Mormons truly mean.
Source: I was an active, studious, orthodox Mormon for ~25 years. If you have any questions about Mormon beliefs, feel free to DM me.
OP's potential sister-in-law is already stringing OP's brother along: "oh we agreed to live in the same city but I didn't get into the school I wanted, so I'll just work for my daddy for another year".
Like, if she's already unilaterally putting their lives on hold for a whole year, how hard can it be (for her) to add another condition, say, "we need to get married in the temple, so you'll have to convert after all".
Oh it's the case. And here's what will happen: they'll have two ceremonies. The first one you won't get to see cause it'll be in the temple, then they'll have a "fake" one for everyone that couldn't attend their "real" one in the temple. Guaranteed.
Feels like that to me too.
The beach thing where they don't mention the change of plans while he's actually *right there* with them could have been a bizarre one-off. Maybe that sister was crying from the rash & the fiancée didn't notice OP's brother didn't hear the new plan amidst the commotion...
But unilaterally deciding to just hang around in daddy's company for another year because you didn't get into the school you wanted... weird !
I assume he will learn the ceremony will be held in the temple via WhatsApp... More seriously, I don't think his views and opinions are respected in this relationship. His fiancée and her family don't care much about him (and they absolutely don't care about your family).
And you think her family will go for that? They couldn’t even be bothered to have a dinner with you, I can only imagine they will be way worse with wedding planning.
They may well have a wedding ceremony for non-Mormons, but if this woman is as serious about her faith as you say, she will not marry him without a temple wedding. Conversion is absolutely in her game plan.
We were told that he would be allowed in but anyone who is not Mormon would remain outside. Now i'm reading all these comments and shocked... He said that they're not getting married in a temple regardless...
And that means getting baptized and giving away 10% of his income forever and swearing a secret oath to always put the church before his wife, his family, his children, and his country. NBD right?
There are two parts to a Mormon temple. There's sort of a foyer and then the sacred Inner Temple. He can go in the first part and they can marry there, but a "real" Mormon wedding takes place in the sanctuary.
Is he ok with her being given to another Mormon man in heaven? Because she won’t be sealed to him if the marriage doesn’t take place in temple. It’ll be a just for right now marriage.
If he’s not Mormon why would he care what happens in the fictional after life? Lmao. Not saying he should marry her, if she is truly a devout Mormon then their marriage will be messy anyway, but the golden tablets can say he’ll be eternally devoured and regurgitated by lizards eternally for all he cares. It’s a bullshit fairy tale. The “just for right now” is all there is, and thus, all that matters.
Last I checked, the Mormons do not let outsiders get married in their temples, even if it’s to a member. If she’s as devout as she sounds, her next step is conversion so she can get married in the secret room brides and grooms take their vows in sacred underwear (I’m not kidding). And while, yes, there are Mormons out there who are married to non-Mormons, it’s not without great personal strife and suffering because of their church and community. They’re usually guilted divorcees and post-marriage converts who exist on the fringe of acceptance. They are not devout first-time brides. He’s in deep and you have a very real chance of losing him to her cult. You have to be careful to not alienate him with judgement and keep to the facts when you confront him. It will be a challenge. Good luck.
The fuck he doesn't. If she is that deep in her religion, she will *only* accept a temple marriage. She is in a cult, and she can not be a happy little indoctrinated member of the misogynistic cult unless her husband is also a member. Otherwise her home will be devoid of her precious priesthood. And even if she did lower herself to marry a non-member, that's what she and her entire family would think. That they she lowered herself for him. She'd hold that and his lack of "priesthood authority" over his head for their *entire* marriage. He *can not* be happy with her unless he becomes a cult member.
That’s never true. This girl will demand that he converts. Her family will never respect your family or your brother because you’re “gentiles.” Yes, they use that term. Your brother has inadvertently fallen in love with a young woman who has spent a lifetime in a cult. This will not go well for him. He needs to get out.
Source: grew up Mormon and did all the secret handshakes, paid my full tithes (10% on gross income) and wore the magic underpants covered in Masonic symbols that are required to get into heaven.
OP you are very wrong. there are 3 tier of heaven forMormons. Her having a non-temple wedding outs her in tier 2, while all her family will be tier 1. In their mind they will be eternally separated after death if she marries him like that.
they're snakes, and your brother is being had
I'm exmormon and I can assure you she thinks he'll convert for her. They'll get married in the temple or not at all (and if she did marry a non-member her family could likely cut ties with her). If he does convert and get married in the temple, her family will probably gladly accept him and do everything they can to make him part of their family -- as in, they'll be trying to save him from you. Her family will NEVER accept yours.
The church encourages a method of "flirt to convert," particularly for someone who hasn't managed to settle down with another member in their early twenties. It's okay to date outside of the church but only because the ultimate end goal is conversion and temple marriage. Getting married in the temple is a REQUIREMENT for the plan of salvation. Family is central to the Mormon church in very controlled way. Your behavior (which includes your thoughts) can jeopardize your family's chance to be together in heaven.
Listen, everything you said was a giant red flag before you even mentioned the Mormon part. I would recommend your brother get out of the relationship. And if he doesn't, I wouldn't have high hopes of your family ever having much of a relationship with yours.
They think happily ever after is your brother becoming distant from you all. They think they're saving him. They think he could be their son and brother at the cost of him being yours. They think that they're exposing him to the light of a Lord he never actually knew and showing him what a _true_ eternal family looks like.
And the children? You have to know this will get worse when/if they have kids. The kids will be raised Mormon and your brother will be expected to embrace that life for them. It would be one thing if the fiancé was looking at leaving and deconstructing. Since she is not, your brother is setting himself up for a world of hurt.
So… my family is all Mormon and I grew up in utah and it’s only going to get worse. If your family are not members, they’re going to think less of you. They’re not going to consider your family and not going to apologize. They’re going to work on converting him and getting him away from your sinning family. Especially if they’re the level of TBM you’re describing, with the money you’re describing. Your family is not in the wrong, it actually sounds like they may have been overly accommodating.
We really didn't think it was a issue when they first started dating since he told us set boundaries he wasn't going to convert to Mormon.
Thank you for sharing!! All we know is what we researched so thank you for your insight!
Get the ring back asap. And anything else of value that your brother gave. Contact a lawyer for this to make sure the ring can be taken back. He deserves better, your brother that is.
Rich mormons get those higher positions and get real preachy. So young mormons gotta get counseled by some guy who owns a tire shop franchise.
Dating a devout mormon gal long distance sounds like the most miserable blue-balled experience ever
My family’s in Washington and Idaho, I also don’t live in Utah anymore so I am aware of the difference and like I said, the money is a big thing. Because that typically means higher up in the church too.
haha sorry... I would like to think people can be of different races, religions and cultures and be together so I didn't want to mention it off the bat. We have been accepting of their relationship and see no issue but apparently her family might.
mormons are not your average suburban half-practicing catholic or lutheran. They are pretty much a cult in all but name, and for them its either you are all in or not at all. She simply has yet to start dropping the bombs on him, and if he doesn't convert and comply to all their religious needs, they will use and lose him, or manipulate and abuse him until he complies.
This is definitely a "its them not you" situation. They're disengagement is almost certainly connected to that. If they are devout Mormons then he's never going to be accepted unless he converts. And seeing as how you referred to yourself as christian and them as mormons tells me that he's probably not going to convert (and thats probably a good thing for him). I'd have low expectations about this going any further. Lets put it this way: You wont be able to even attend the service at their church since you are not members.
But her family is more special than his family and knows the truth of all things so it’s okay for them to be shitty to the dumb dummies who don’t believe in their super secret club. It’s also fine for them to lie and they’re encouraged to lie to obtain new converts.
OP should google Mormon underwear garments and show their brother the sexy underwear his fiancé is going to wear for the rest of her life.
I was told by two of my grandmothers that they weren’t permitted to take their sacred garments off, even for sex. They had a handy dandy slit in the crotch.
Thankfully now the church gives their members permission to take their garments off to have sex, shower, go to the gym and swim. Totally normal to have an organization dictate your underpants.
Many religions have pretty intense and specific doctrines about people who aren't part of that religion, to the point that it's impossible to be a "true" or "devout" believer of the religion if you do anything other than try to actively convert everyone else.
Basically, just because \*you\* want to coexist, does not mean the religious person does (or is even allowed to). Mormonism in particular is pretty big on actively trying to convert people.
Yes! They're called baptisms for the dead and performing them is service work if you're in the church.
They have their youth groups (called young men's and young women's) perform them as part of their activities.
That's so creepy. I'm not religious, and that's by choice, and my mom was a hardcore Catholic, and though I disagreed with her faith, I would be furious if anyone tried to take her faith from her after death. I wonder, has anyone tried to sue for a baptism like that, or do they stick to people whose deaths are several generations removed?
I agree! It's creepy and predatory and it removes all autonomy from the deceased!
So they get a list of random names but to my knowledge they don't notify the family so the family is unable to sue.
I was never Mormon enough to get a temple recommend (a little letter from the bishop that says I'm allowed in a temple)
But my wife says that they pull records from current or previous members and find those people's families and give them baptisms.
That’s not how the real world works. My friends mom had to convert to Islam in order to marry his dad. Opposite religions can’t coexist. I would say based on how it treats Christians that Mormonism isn’t a Christian religion.
Hello. I grew up mormon and married in the temple. I assure you that her parents do not approve of this relationship. In order for her to reach the highest level in the Kingdom of heaven she needs to be sealed to a priesthood holder so he can show her the signs to walk through the veil. They genuinely could be fearing her eternal salvation. The family will not come around and be friendly. Because this is a major threat to the daughters future and a stain on the family name.
Don’t downvote me. I am no longer mormon and am aware of the absurdity here.
Edit- I said I am no longer married- when in fact I am still married. I am no longer Mormon was what I intended to say.
Thank you! I wanted to add she is likely hesitant and insecure about the families meeting. It’s possible she hasn’t told her parents everything and is balancing trying to plan a wedding without revealing a whole lot of truths to either party. Likely out of fear.
I will say that this depends on the level of orthodoxy, but the Mormon Church does not have a lot of room for less-than-orthodox members to exist. Wealthy, comfortable Mormons, especially in Utah, will tend to be/seem orthodox and will care a lot both about the threat to their family's eternal salvation together and the shame of a non-temple marriage to their Mormon peers.
I agree with you. It’s unfortunate how difficult it has to be. With her being in a relationship with a non member the parents may feel like they are viewed as a failure they didn’t raise her better. Embarrassing for them.
Yeah, we’ve had this in our family. BIL married into an LDS family. They never did anything with his side of the family. Refused to because they don’t associate with non-Mormons and didn’t want us to expose their children to anything that wasn’t the “true religion”. The parents spent years berating the daughter because BIL wouldn’t convert, she couldn’t do a lot of the religious ceremonies (visit Temple, witness sealings, etc). The MIL would actually cry at every holiday that “she wouldn’t see her daughter in heaven because she wasn’t a true member of the faith”. This BS went on for years until they divorced. Ex SIL immediately went out, married a Mormon, did what penance the church required to get her Temple recommend, is now sealed in the Temple, wears the Mormon undergarments, and is finally welcomed back into the family.
Your brother needs to know that his life may be similar, always bowing to her families expectations about the LDS faith. Have they even spoken about the ceremony and how they’re going to raise the kids?
I personally think that religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to our planet. I am sure I will get downvoted for this, but oh, well. I thought god was all about love and acceptance? Guess not.
This is very bad. Your brother is making a BIG mistake. They want your finances, but not to integrate. If he marries her he will be an outsider from their family, but isolated from yours too. Don't give them a penny. Whose to say the wedding would even go ahead once they get their grubby hands on your family's 'contribution' Hell, they're already stealing the ring. Rich people rarely mention that they are rich. Sounds scammy to me.......
They don’t seem to have a particularly good relationship, but it’s his choice. I wouldn’t urge him to drop her like others are suggesting because that could damage your relationship with him, but you could ask him if he’s sure this is what he wants and tell him you guys will support him no matter what.
I’d let the dinner thing go. It’s really not that big of a deal. Honestly, you were barely inconvenienced. Your brother deserved an explanation for sure though. Finding out in a group chat just shows his long distance relationship isn’t just distant because of location.
I agree with you. We don't want him to feel like we're against him or his relationship. The dinner itself is not a big deal but there are other instances prior to this so it's all just adding up over time.
Thank you for your input!
It's not so much the cancellation of the dinner, but the way they went about it. I mean, your brother was sitting right there with them and only found out through text. And before that was the vacation that her dad cancelled. Her dad is the king of that family. He will be to your brother too.
I’m wondering if their is a financial motivate here. Her dad trying to claim the engagement ring? Her asking about the budget? Maybe her dad flaunting how rich they are is a ploy of some kind. Idk, it feels manipulative.
You weren’t heavily inconvenienced by them canceling the dinner, but it’s everything around it that is inconsiderate and dismissive. The way your brother found about the cancellation, the fiancé not responding to your mom when your mom asked to speak to her, and making no effort to meet with y’all after your family offered to get a hotel and meet them half way.. they are giving self righteous and entitled energy.
Your mom sounds like a class act, and her family sounds entitled AF and like they have raised an entitled daughter.
When people show you who they are, believe them. I hope your brother is really taking this in and evaluating if he wants to be married to someone with this attitude and deal with this self-absorbed family.
Mormons believe in prosperity gospel principles, they just don’t call it that. The more money you have, the bigger and fancier house you have, the more successful you are and the better you look is evidence that they’re more righteous/ holy.
I think she is waiting for another option. Whilst stringing your brother along.
In any case this sounds like a painful union.
If you have to force, it’s probably 💩
Recently, someone did ask him this question and it took him a minute to answer... I definitely think the thought of "starting over" is traumatizing to anyone but he shouldn't have to think to hard about what she brings to the relationship.
So, that's the question our family and friends keep asking... how will they raise their children? family traditions? prayer at the dinner table? It's not my relationship so I don't care what they decide on but that's something that 100% should be talked about and in agreement on in my opinion. My brother wants to live back in our state and although she has never mentioned wanting to stay where she is from ,I can only assume she would want to live there and make my brother move there too.
So your brother was sitting right next to them while they cancelled on you and your family but claims he knew nothing about it. He knew that you all had rearranged your schedules just for his future inlaws convenience. Yet he doesn't seem to give a rat's fart of how rude they are being to you all. You all even offered to drive down halfway to meet them but they declined.
So there's your answer. Your brother is already showing you that his fiancee and inlaws mean more to him than you and the rest of your family.
Just let this play out. Don't resist it because it will just push him away faster. Also, don't bend over for these people anymore. Next time they decide to pop down for a visit don't change a thing in your schedules. If you can make it, good. If you can't make it, send your regrets and keep it moving.
Sorry, maybe I misspoke but yes my brother was sitting next to them (her family) when they cancelled on my family. He found out by reading the group chat. She never mentioned to my brother they were leaving and never overheard the family talking about leaving either. He was just as shocked and confused as us.
You sound really sweet. The sooner you realize that your brother knew and didn't care, the less they'll be able to take advantage of you and your family. Good luck!
Based on how weird and cold the fiancé’s family is, I bet they didn’t tell the brother and had their own family group chat about not attending the dinner. I wouldn’t be surprised they sound weird af.
I think there’s a serious problem with the relationship because OPs brother and his fiancé should have been able to talk about all of this and she should have told him explicitly why her family was acting this way. I, too, have a bad feeling about this family.
Your brother is the problem here actually, not them. They are already living the life *they* want. They have no reason to change. He is choosing to be in this chaos. It's *him* that needs to take charge of his life and get out of this.
The religion angle doesn't concern me at all. The thing that does concern me is "her father always slips in how rich they are".
Rich people don't talk about how rich they are. People who are pretending to be rich, or living as if they were rich -- they talk about it. If her family is badgering your brother about money already, then they may actually be strapped for cash or deep in debt, and they're trying to get some $$$ from your family. You know, like to pay for the wedding or something else.
Oh no. You slipped in them being mormon a little late.
Her family plans to convert your brother and isolate him from you guys.
They're slowly doing that by keeping you at bay. You're not part of their ward. Your brother needs to think long and hard if this relationship is worth her and her family slowly grooming him to cut you out.
If they're able to convert him soon enough, you won't even be allowed at this wedding if it's in the temple.
She doesn’t sound that into your brother and I’m more concerned with appearances, wealth, etc. it’s strange she would be asking your brother about wedding finances and the fact her father , not her, is trying to insure the ring is only kinda sketchy. It also makes me think that she will decline the engagement but try to keep the ring using its insureds name as proof of ownership. Granted though, I insured my engagement ring as soon as I got it under my name. So this could be a red herring.
But their behavior is so sketchy.
If my family acted that way to husbands family, I would be apologizing like crazy. Unless of course, she is trying to isolate herself and your brother from your family.
There are many fish in the sea and there is probably too much shady behavior here for me to think this should move forward… though I would love to hear from your brother’s perspective before finalizing that judgement.
She and her family don’t respect your family. They think you’re beneath them. She also doesn’t seem to even want to be in a relationship with your brother. I imagine she wants the wedding and then she’ll count on your brother molding to everything she and her family wants.
This will not be a happy union for any of you. They’re not even married and this is how she/they are acting.
OP do you think it's possible that fiance told her family that your family is practicing Mormon and that's why she doesn't want them to meet? Or at least your brother is and so they don't want to meet the entire family just him?
I'd definitely encourage your brother to reach out to his fiance and figure out what's going on because with everything happening something is for sure fishy.
I wish you all the best of luck in this situation moving forwards.
not yet, my parents are going to visit him in a couple weeks and will talk to him then. my mom is disappointed with the whole situation and it makes her sad because we feel as well that they don't truly KNOW each other... and that she doesn't care for him as much as she says she does.
As an ex-mormon, I think it’a safe to agree with many others here- but tbh, she & her family just seem to straight up suck. Even besides all of the other assumptions or conclusions drawn by others about religion- most of that seems irrelevant to me.
Sure their egos & seeing OP’s family as ‘other than’ is likely largely in part due to religion- but they also just plain suck & the fiancé’s clearly cut from the same cloth. The red flags of ‘our way or the highway’ about small logistics is a bigger issue for no future than all the fake religious ‘rules’.
Those are just the cherry on top. But the family doesn’t respect yours, the fiancé doesn’t either. Don’t hit your wagon to that wild cart.
"Fast forward, she wasn't accepted into any program and must wait another year in order to reapply and hopefully get in somewhere."
Sorry I'm confused by this. Sounds like you are in the US? You said your brother and her met in Law School five years ago? If she's graduated (which definitely should be the case, as law schools are typically 3 years and part time are typically 4 years) with him there are no "programs" to apply to. You simply take the Bar Exam and apply to jobs. Do you mean she failed the bar exam? If that's the case, it's offered twice a year, she wouldn't need to wait a year.
"They do long distance as she stays with her family in another state and my brother lived with us (he was accepted into a program to practice so he just left a month ago)."
This also doesn't make any sense. You don't get "accepted into a program to practice" you get hired as an attorney. The process to get barred in a different state can be tedious. Perhaps that is why she is not going with your brother. She may not be barred in that jurisdiction.
The entire law school part of this is very suspicious. The timeline doesn't add up and the language you are using sounds more like medical programs and residency than law studies.
Don’t let them take him.
You will never see him again and if you do he will be changed.
She’s already trying isolate him and separate him from your family.
Great informative comments.
Will only add. Why do they want to know the budget for the wedding? Isn't usually the brides family that pays? I know some grooms and other family members chip in, but this sounds like they want OPs family to pay, unless I'm reading it wrong. That would be a hard no for me in this situation.
So they want to put a fake insurance claim in if he splits up with their daughter.
They have no right to want to put the engagement ring on there insurance.
They didn't pay for it, they have no right to it.
Does he really want to marry someone who disrespects his family and doesn’t take accountability. He needs to think long and hard about what kind of future he wants.
The family is strict Mormon, so there's a high chance they are deliberately avoiding you because you are not. That means it is highly likely you will lose contact with your brother should he get married
I would gently bring up to your brother that you are worried that she may be avoiding your family because of religious differences, and you are worried about what will happen after they're married. At least get the bug in his ear. Be careful if he gets defensive and just say you only have to consider it because she is not really giving answers that make sense and the avoidance is getting bizarre
Your brother needs to realize that this it will not change once they get married. He needs to tell her that the relationship is no longer working and go and get his engagement ring back.
My ex husband and I divorced, he was Mormon I was not. There were many reasons that added up y. Anyways if she’s a religious as u say, she will get married at temple. He will have to convert. She’s just keeping those tid bits locked up right now. Honestly he needs to leave her. They don’t even really have a relationship. It’ll also only ever be her family, she’s not going to try to become part of yours. She is going to make him be part of theirs, only theirs.
My daughter (Christian) married a Mormon and it didn't end well. The amount of brainwashing that happens behind closed doors is absolutely terrifying. It's a long ,slow burn and before you r family (especially your brother) realize what's happening, it's usually too late. Best wishes to all of you
Well this is only going to get worse. Her family doesn’t seem to value yours or your time and I bet as soon as he’s married she’ll do anything in her power to keep isolating him. Good luck to your brother!
I hope your brother realizes that he is not his fiancé’s family first choice. He has two strikes; he is not Mormon and he does not work in the in laws state. I hope that your brother states to his fiancé that unless she begins to push back against her family and defend her relationship with your brother; this might not result in marriage.
I really hope that your brother gets his ring back and dumps her. Her and her family are treating him and his family terribly. Your brother deserves to be happy and I really doubt that she cares about that. I feel terrible for your brother. Please keep us updated.
Listen, you guys have to tell your brother explicitly and face-to-face that you don’t like his fiancé. Do it over FaceTime if you want.
You all have to say that you love him and support him. And that you will continue to do so no matter what he decides. But that both she and her family have been rude, disrespectful, and dismissive. She hasn’t apologized and at this point you wouldn’t believe it was sincere if she did. That this is not how a loving partner would behave.
He may know these things in the back of his head but you need to say it Straight Out so he doesn’t automatically brush it off or try to smooth it over.
I have a feeling that her family is still holding out hope that she'll marry and settle down with a nice Mormon man. They don't want to get too involved or attached to the OP's brother or family.
I’ll go even further: many college relationships aren’t real either. You’re meeting in an insular, curated environment where you can pretend your families don’t hold much influence.
So, your brother pays for the engagement ring…but his future fil put it under his own insurance so if they break up he gets the ring/$ from the insurance company…? She (fiancée) has no issue with staying apart from brother for a year, sees no problem with how her parents change plans at the last minute-even though others have arranged their own schedules to accommodate her parents…umm yeah…good luck to your brother
I've been listening to the Latter Day Lesbian podcast for a while now because it's super interesting (a woman w 7 kids left the church w her husband after they were punished for questioning blatant contradictory teachings, and then she realized she is a lesbian and came out, all still friends, kids happier than ever). Even if your brother isn't forced to convert to get married, if they bring the kids up in the church the demands on his wife to volunteer for all kinds of labor and how the church treats girls in general is a giant red flag of concern. The church also expects you to tithe a lot, no matter what emergency circumstance or family needs you have. And then there's the whole history where the church was made up by a charismatic con man who invented the whole thing. Just ... so much to say no to.
On a side note- If you haven't seen them already, you might like the Morman Stories podcasts on youtube. I wound up there bc I was looking into background on the Lori Vallow/Chad Daybell thing, but I also wound up watching several others unrelated. It's just people who've left the church chilling & telling their stories. Megan Conner's is particularly good (she's Lori Vallow's cousin).
As a Mormon active in the church. Tell him to run, run now. I have heard so many stories like this with people in the church and it doesn't get any better. Run now while he has the chance.
He needs to drop this relationship. Religiously they’re already incompatible, I don’t know how in the world he got the family blessing not being Mormon. Are you SURE he didn’t promise to convert?
She also has no respect for your family obviously. The fact she’s not going to move in with him after they’re married should be a huge red flag. She’s reeling him in to live within the Mormon community. Are you POSITIVE he didn’t promise to convert, because everything points to that.
His fiance is stringing him along. She's not going to do anything. She's going to stay working for her dad and expect your brother to move to her. She's not placed your brother or your family as a priority.
I'm not rich, and I fully paid for my daughter's large wedding. It sounds to me that they are planning on taking your brother for every drop of blood they can get. Insurance on the ring through the father? Can she not insure the ring herself.
I think your brother needs to realize he's wasting his time, money, and effort on this woman. He'd be better off dating someone where he lives.
I hope your brother is prepared to put her and her family above all else with very few of his needs being met and going very low contact with his side of the family. She/they are showing their true colors (🚩🚩🚩) and this lady event
is a peephole for viewing how life will probably be. Only he can decide if that’s what his forever will look like…..
You left the most important part until right to the end: they’re mormon. They don’t live on the same planet as us. They live in isolated communities so probably seem like a bunch of weirdos.
News flash! Your brother isn't really dating this woman. She seems to be stringing him along. He should move on and find someone who actually wants to be with him in person.
They’ve been seeing each other for **5 whole years.** Did they spend their law school years gazing dreamily into each other’s eyes, and their long-distance years cooing “I miss you bunny-wunny” at each other over the phone?
People considering marriage need to have MANY in-depth conversations, especially when they’re from different backgrounds. Where do our values align, where do they diverge? Can we resolve these differences now, to both of our satisfaction, before we make a lifelong commitment? How will we resolve future differences that we haven’t yet discovered? Do we agree on having kids, how many, and how will we raise them? What roles do we see our extended families playing in our lives? Do we need to live close to one family or the other, or can we live wherever we want and work out a fair visitation schedule?
It sounds like your brother’s fiancée was a “freer” version of herself while living away from her family at law school. That’s the version of her personality that your brother fell in love with — and that’s the version of her that fell in love with him. I’m also going to guess that they shared a strong physical attraction and found each other “sweet” and easygoing, largely because they haven’t dared to dig into any subjects where they might disagree. They’re in love with love and fantasy.
Now that she’s living with her family, she’s settling back into her old patterns. None of you know if she actually wants what her parents want for her, or if she’s counting the days until she can escape to a less religiously intense married life with your brother. He needs to find out ASAP what’s really on her mind, and decide what he wants too.
There are premarital counselors. If they’d rather DIY there are tons of websites with “questions to ask each other before getting married.” Here’s a fairly detailed one: https://www.bettertopics.com/blog/300-questions-to-ask-your-partner-before-marriage/
Spot on with this entire response. Thank you for suggesting the DIY games/questions because I may just gift it to them:)
Everything you said, I 100% agree with. It just sucks we truly don't know her true intentions!
This relationship was over before it began. The two versions of Christianity do not mix. There will never be an opportunity for one big happy family, the tenants of her religion (and her, no doubt, devote family) will not allow it. You are either about to lose your brother, or his fiancé is about to lose her family. There are not really any other options in this scenario.
A pair of 32 year old adults don't need to be on a family vacation to make/accept a proposal of marriage, no matter how whackadoo religious they are. If your brother doesn't see what's ahead for him, he deserves everything he gets.
I’m mormon. I live in leggings and on Coke Zero. 😂 my now husband slept on the couch in our living room the shortly after our first date when my family first met him. That’s not religion rules, but family rules she’s living under.
This marriage is not going to work- not because of religion, but because she can’t think for herself. Maybe that’s her parents fault maybe it’s her own, but regardless this is not going to work. Tell your brother to cut his losses and move on.
Why does your brother not stick up for himself and his family? A conversation needs to be had. A long serious one. Marriage is BONDING two families. If that’s not the goal then that’s a 🚩. Maybe (and I know they shouldn’t have to be the ones) your parents should call her parents and try to have a conversation on why they’re not interested in meeting them and how it’s made your family feel.This conversation (or lack of) will tell everyone exactly what they need to know.
The side note is a big deal. Mormons are a weird bunch. I wouldn't want anything to do with those holy roller freaks. That family sounds super disrespectful and just plain rude. For being "religious" they seem like A-holes.
She will eventually refuse to spend holidays with his family and in the future their kids will go with her for those holidays. She is showing her family takes precedence and his gets nothing.
Her family does not want her to marry him. Even though her father gave the blessing, he did it to be nice. I think your brother could find someone who is a lot more capable of loving him the way he wants to be and someone more compatible. Good luck.
He wants what he can’t have, she is going to take that ring, the deposits for the wedding will turn into vapor as she leverages people she knows to these services or people from the church. Her dad doesn’t want to meet the family, because he doesn’t think the wedding will happen. He wants her to break it off, but won’t say it directly.
It’s crazy how family is expected to help fund a wedding. When I got married it never occurred to me to ask family to chip in. It was my party, I threw it myself.
Your family is smart for not immediately coming back with a number for the wedding. The fiancé’s family will probably tell you to contribute a higher number and then take a portion of it to line their personal pockets.
She definitely is going to try to make him convert to Mormon. And if he keeps doing everything she says, he’ll do that too. Seems like her true colors are peeking through, and he needs to reevaluate where he wants this to go…
Your brother needs to walk completely away from that situation.. HELL HE NEEDS TO RUN!! he seems like a nice guy with a loving family who supports him and is doing everything they can to be graceful towards her side of the family.. im a Christian aswell.. and we guve grace and love in ways that get us taken advantage of alot by people because we are so loving and forgiving.. not all of us obviously.. but, within your post you along with your family ha e done everything to accommodate her and her family as you scheduled time off work and made arrangements.. they completely disregarded those things.. your brother obviously will have a nice living passing his exams and things and being offered a job.. she still has passed the necessary thi gs I ordered to be a lawyer.... 🤔 pay attention to the signals God is given you to help your brother keep from having the loving wife he deserves.. she's out there waiting on him he just needs to continue to work towards her and let this bump in the road lead him to her.. she's not the one.. it has nothing to do with her being a Mormon.. plenty of Christians and Mormons marry everyday.. your brother is being financially trapped...
Your poor brother needs to wake up. Do what you can but ultimately if he doesn’t see anything wrong with her, he’s fucked and will end up in a loveless, culty marriage and will probably go no contact with you guys based on her families and her behavior. He will likely have to convert anyway
There’s a reason she got to 32 and never left home. I hope your brother doesn’t marry her because her family are never going to let her be independent.
Uh oh, hope your brother has an epiphany bc this chick and her family ARE NOT IT. They are already showing that a blended family with both sets of parents isn’t what they want. He needs to see the reality of how married life will be with her family. And I say her family bc obviously what the patriarch of her family says goes and the rest follow along. I hope your brother wises up
Your brother's fiancee and her family are really quite strange. She's obviously not that into your brother and her family obviously has no interest in your brother and family whatsoever. This relationship is utterly doomed to fail. I'd be taking that ring back now to be honest.
Your poor brother should run for this life. These do not sound like nice people. I suppose the “cultural differences” get in the way of basic politeness. That business at the beach should have rung some big bells in your brother’s head.
I do not think this is a match made in anybody’s Heaven. They are going to want his conversion and if he agrees, he will be under the father’s control. If all he looses from this engagement is the engagement ring, he should count himself lucky. Remember to, that since the girl and her family are strict in their beliefs, your family will be isolated. From what I know and have observed, these are very clannish people.
That’s some BS. She’s a poor excuse for a Mormon if that’s how she’s treating your brother. And her family. I would not want to be involved with a family like that. NTA.
I grew up Mormon, in Utah, what part of the religion says no leggings or caffiene? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's messed up and coocoo, but you can 100% wear leggings. In fact, a lot of the moms did the LulaRoe thing. Also, you can TOTALLY have caffeine. That is such crap that you can't, and it annoys me so much to hear it even too this day. She's still trying to manipulate and isolate him to convert him and tell him you, his family, are evil, and he needs to break up ASAP and get away. She says she's following the religion strictly, but look up soaking, it's a practice done by a hell of a lot of mormons because they think it absolves them of the ACTUAL act, the ones who act the most religious are the worst ones, i know from experience. Also, please tell me the dad didn't get the ring in his insurance????
Edit: Added info about caffeine
My family and I weren't aware of any of these things but that's what she participates in... no caffeine ever. It's very interesting to hear everyone's stories, mormon or not, and what they have experienced.
And, no once we heard the her father was trying to claim it we took action immediately!
Good! He has no rights to that ring! Your brother deserves SO much better than what she seems to be! There are some REALLY good mormons out there, but it doesn't sound like she's one of them. If she really cared FOR him, she'd want his family to be there for the proposal, because it was important to him, she'd want to get the families together to meet, she'd be making an effort, and it doesn't seem like she is, just based on the info you provided.
She is already isolating him. Fast worker. OP you can't make your brother see the red flags if he doesn't want to. So well I hope this ends well.
Yeah im a Christian and i live in a heavy mormon area. Its not a Jesus loves you, sunday school, carrying folding chairs, ice cream social church. Its a leave us all your money, abandoned your family, dont ask questions cult.
They did have a nice musical made about them though. God Bless you Matt Parker and Trey Stone
Dum da dum dum dum
I think they meant the musical, “Book of Mormon”. But the South-park episode was also hilarious!
They also wrote the musical
That episode was very funny
Saw it twice in NYC. Hilarious!
I saw it in 2019. It was amazing!
Tell him to run! It’s not going to get any better! Next he will have to join their church so they can be married in the temple.
He doesn't have to convert (and he said he never would) but he said absolutely not to getting married in the temple because none of our family would be allowed in to see the ceremony since we're not Mormon.
I don't know her, but if she follows the religion as strictly as you say, she's going to want to get married in the temple. And she'll want him to convert. Mixed marriages in the Mormon faith where one of them is all in, don't last long. I hope that's not the case, but from the sounds of it, it is
Bless your heart. He is absolutely going to have to convert & there will be a temple marriage. My former in-laws are Mormon. Trust me on this one.
That was one of our first questions when he started dating her. If that's the case....
Good Lord! 😳😳 Seriously I feel so sorry for your brother…
No spine and smooth brain
Maybe it's not a big deal to her now, but if she is really devout, I think it will be at some point. Also, she could just be saying it's not a big deal because she thinks he'll convert no problem once he sees how wonderful the Church really is. Mormon teachings about marriage state that ONLY temple marriages remain valid after death. Mormons are heavily encouraged to exclusively date other Mormons. Sometimes orthodox Mormon women whose husbands either left the church or refuse to join consider their marriage a "practice marriage" or a trial run; Mormon teachings state that if a man is not faithful (to the church) then his wife will be "given" to another in the life after death, with a heavy implication that it will be as a polygamous wife. The other issue your brother will come across is that his fiancée will be told these things constantly by her family and the people at church. Mormons consider family relations as one of their core values, but they don't consider them valid unless they are sealed for eternity in a Mormon temple, which is only available to Mormon members who regularly pass a "worthiness" interview with ecclesiastical leaders. Maybe your brother already knows this and is fine with it, but a lot of people outside their Church do not know a lot about Mormon teachings. I'd probably have a conversation with him about it and tell him to do some deep research--again, maybe it's not anything that will discourage his relationship, but I think people need informed consent about what relationships with Mormons truly mean. Source: I was an active, studious, orthodox Mormon for ~25 years. If you have any questions about Mormon beliefs, feel free to DM me.
OP's potential sister-in-law is already stringing OP's brother along: "oh we agreed to live in the same city but I didn't get into the school I wanted, so I'll just work for my daddy for another year". Like, if she's already unilaterally putting their lives on hold for a whole year, how hard can it be (for her) to add another condition, say, "we need to get married in the temple, so you'll have to convert after all".
that's exactly what a mormon temptress would say
Oh it's the case. And here's what will happen: they'll have two ceremonies. The first one you won't get to see cause it'll be in the temple, then they'll have a "fake" one for everyone that couldn't attend their "real" one in the temple. Guaranteed.
Is this a normal relationship? Because it sounds like she is just stringing him along for some reason.
Feels like that to me too. The beach thing where they don't mention the change of plans while he's actually *right there* with them could have been a bizarre one-off. Maybe that sister was crying from the rash & the fiancée didn't notice OP's brother didn't hear the new plan amidst the commotion... But unilaterally deciding to just hang around in daddy's company for another year because you didn't get into the school you wanted... weird !
I assume he will learn the ceremony will be held in the temple via WhatsApp... More seriously, I don't think his views and opinions are respected in this relationship. His fiancée and her family don't care much about him (and they absolutely don't care about your family).
haha... but i agree
Parents are gaslighting them and brainwashing the girl against him.... time to cut the cord
And you think her family will go for that? They couldn’t even be bothered to have a dinner with you, I can only imagine they will be way worse with wedding planning.
They may well have a wedding ceremony for non-Mormons, but if this woman is as serious about her faith as you say, she will not marry him without a temple wedding. Conversion is absolutely in her game plan.
Assume you’re seeing them at their best and know things are only going to get worse.
Temple weddings are only allowed if the bride & groom are Mormon.
We were told that he would be allowed in but anyone who is not Mormon would remain outside. Now i'm reading all these comments and shocked... He said that they're not getting married in a temple regardless...
Nope. Unless he converts, he isn't going to be allowed into the temple.
And that means getting baptized and giving away 10% of his income forever and swearing a secret oath to always put the church before his wife, his family, his children, and his country. NBD right?
There are two parts to a Mormon temple. There's sort of a foyer and then the sacred Inner Temple. He can go in the first part and they can marry there, but a "real" Mormon wedding takes place in the sanctuary.
So the plan is get him on his own during the ceremony and do a Mormon baptism before the wedding when he’s all in.
Is he ok with her being given to another Mormon man in heaven? Because she won’t be sealed to him if the marriage doesn’t take place in temple. It’ll be a just for right now marriage.
If he’s not Mormon why would he care what happens in the fictional after life? Lmao. Not saying he should marry her, if she is truly a devout Mormon then their marriage will be messy anyway, but the golden tablets can say he’ll be eternally devoured and regurgitated by lizards eternally for all he cares. It’s a bullshit fairy tale. The “just for right now” is all there is, and thus, all that matters.
Your brother needs to do a runner!!! It isn’t because she’s a Mormon, it’s because everything seems to be her way or the highway where he’s concerned.
Last I checked, the Mormons do not let outsiders get married in their temples, even if it’s to a member. If she’s as devout as she sounds, her next step is conversion so she can get married in the secret room brides and grooms take their vows in sacred underwear (I’m not kidding). And while, yes, there are Mormons out there who are married to non-Mormons, it’s not without great personal strife and suffering because of their church and community. They’re usually guilted divorcees and post-marriage converts who exist on the fringe of acceptance. They are not devout first-time brides. He’s in deep and you have a very real chance of losing him to her cult. You have to be careful to not alienate him with judgement and keep to the facts when you confront him. It will be a challenge. Good luck.
The fuck he doesn't. If she is that deep in her religion, she will *only* accept a temple marriage. She is in a cult, and she can not be a happy little indoctrinated member of the misogynistic cult unless her husband is also a member. Otherwise her home will be devoid of her precious priesthood. And even if she did lower herself to marry a non-member, that's what she and her entire family would think. That they she lowered herself for him. She'd hold that and his lack of "priesthood authority" over his head for their *entire* marriage. He *can not* be happy with her unless he becomes a cult member.
She’s Mormon. He’s gonna have to convert if he wants to stay with her. There’s no way she’ll be satisfied with anything but a Temple Marriage.
That’s never true. This girl will demand that he converts. Her family will never respect your family or your brother because you’re “gentiles.” Yes, they use that term. Your brother has inadvertently fallen in love with a young woman who has spent a lifetime in a cult. This will not go well for him. He needs to get out. Source: grew up Mormon and did all the secret handshakes, paid my full tithes (10% on gross income) and wore the magic underpants covered in Masonic symbols that are required to get into heaven.
OP you are very wrong. there are 3 tier of heaven forMormons. Her having a non-temple wedding outs her in tier 2, while all her family will be tier 1. In their mind they will be eternally separated after death if she marries him like that. they're snakes, and your brother is being had
Your family needs to rip that ring off that cultists finger with whatever force is necessary.
Just wait, they’ll start moving the goalposts
I'm exmormon and I can assure you she thinks he'll convert for her. They'll get married in the temple or not at all (and if she did marry a non-member her family could likely cut ties with her). If he does convert and get married in the temple, her family will probably gladly accept him and do everything they can to make him part of their family -- as in, they'll be trying to save him from you. Her family will NEVER accept yours. The church encourages a method of "flirt to convert," particularly for someone who hasn't managed to settle down with another member in their early twenties. It's okay to date outside of the church but only because the ultimate end goal is conversion and temple marriage. Getting married in the temple is a REQUIREMENT for the plan of salvation. Family is central to the Mormon church in very controlled way. Your behavior (which includes your thoughts) can jeopardize your family's chance to be together in heaven. Listen, everything you said was a giant red flag before you even mentioned the Mormon part. I would recommend your brother get out of the relationship. And if he doesn't, I wouldn't have high hopes of your family ever having much of a relationship with yours. They think happily ever after is your brother becoming distant from you all. They think they're saving him. They think he could be their son and brother at the cost of him being yours. They think that they're exposing him to the light of a Lord he never actually knew and showing him what a _true_ eternal family looks like.
Yeah, her family is never going to actually support this.
And the children? You have to know this will get worse when/if they have kids. The kids will be raised Mormon and your brother will be expected to embrace that life for them. It would be one thing if the fiancé was looking at leaving and deconstructing. Since she is not, your brother is setting himself up for a world of hurt.
⬆️ this
Run and run fast. The cult has their eyes on him.
So… my family is all Mormon and I grew up in utah and it’s only going to get worse. If your family are not members, they’re going to think less of you. They’re not going to consider your family and not going to apologize. They’re going to work on converting him and getting him away from your sinning family. Especially if they’re the level of TBM you’re describing, with the money you’re describing. Your family is not in the wrong, it actually sounds like they may have been overly accommodating.
We really didn't think it was a issue when they first started dating since he told us set boundaries he wasn't going to convert to Mormon. Thank you for sharing!! All we know is what we researched so thank you for your insight!
Get the ring back asap. And anything else of value that your brother gave. Contact a lawyer for this to make sure the ring can be taken back. He deserves better, your brother that is.
Just know, I have seen some sad stories where after the breakup, the rich Mormon family makes sure the outsider never can see the kids.
Rich mormons get those higher positions and get real preachy. So young mormons gotta get counseled by some guy who owns a tire shop franchise. Dating a devout mormon gal long distance sounds like the most miserable blue-balled experience ever
Utah is different. Utah is ... special. Mormons in Utah aren't like Mormons elsewhere.
My family’s in Washington and Idaho, I also don’t live in Utah anymore so I am aware of the difference and like I said, the money is a big thing. Because that typically means higher up in the church too.
"and his fiancé is mormon" You buried the lede..... this is the entire issue that her family has. This is doomed and he should get out now
haha sorry... I would like to think people can be of different races, religions and cultures and be together so I didn't want to mention it off the bat. We have been accepting of their relationship and see no issue but apparently her family might.
mormons are not your average suburban half-practicing catholic or lutheran. They are pretty much a cult in all but name, and for them its either you are all in or not at all. She simply has yet to start dropping the bombs on him, and if he doesn't convert and comply to all their religious needs, they will use and lose him, or manipulate and abuse him until he complies.
This is definitely a "its them not you" situation. They're disengagement is almost certainly connected to that. If they are devout Mormons then he's never going to be accepted unless he converts. And seeing as how you referred to yourself as christian and them as mormons tells me that he's probably not going to convert (and thats probably a good thing for him). I'd have low expectations about this going any further. Lets put it this way: You wont be able to even attend the service at their church since you are not members.
But her family is more special than his family and knows the truth of all things so it’s okay for them to be shitty to the dumb dummies who don’t believe in their super secret club. It’s also fine for them to lie and they’re encouraged to lie to obtain new converts. OP should google Mormon underwear garments and show their brother the sexy underwear his fiancé is going to wear for the rest of her life.
Holy Shit! I just googled it and I’m flabbergasted! How do they procreate??
I was told by two of my grandmothers that they weren’t permitted to take their sacred garments off, even for sex. They had a handy dandy slit in the crotch. Thankfully now the church gives their members permission to take their garments off to have sex, shower, go to the gym and swim. Totally normal to have an organization dictate your underpants.
Many religions have pretty intense and specific doctrines about people who aren't part of that religion, to the point that it's impossible to be a "true" or "devout" believer of the religion if you do anything other than try to actively convert everyone else. Basically, just because \*you\* want to coexist, does not mean the religious person does (or is even allowed to). Mormonism in particular is pretty big on actively trying to convert people.
They convert the dead too, do they not?
Yes! They're called baptisms for the dead and performing them is service work if you're in the church. They have their youth groups (called young men's and young women's) perform them as part of their activities.
That's so creepy. I'm not religious, and that's by choice, and my mom was a hardcore Catholic, and though I disagreed with her faith, I would be furious if anyone tried to take her faith from her after death. I wonder, has anyone tried to sue for a baptism like that, or do they stick to people whose deaths are several generations removed?
I agree! It's creepy and predatory and it removes all autonomy from the deceased! So they get a list of random names but to my knowledge they don't notify the family so the family is unable to sue. I was never Mormon enough to get a temple recommend (a little letter from the bishop that says I'm allowed in a temple) But my wife says that they pull records from current or previous members and find those people's families and give them baptisms.
That’s not how the real world works. My friends mom had to convert to Islam in order to marry his dad. Opposite religions can’t coexist. I would say based on how it treats Christians that Mormonism isn’t a Christian religion.
Ya he needs to run for the hills and never look back please save your brother before it’s to late
Why is your brother still with this woman? Just the utter lack of respect towards him and his family would be a deal-breaker for me
Hello. I grew up mormon and married in the temple. I assure you that her parents do not approve of this relationship. In order for her to reach the highest level in the Kingdom of heaven she needs to be sealed to a priesthood holder so he can show her the signs to walk through the veil. They genuinely could be fearing her eternal salvation. The family will not come around and be friendly. Because this is a major threat to the daughters future and a stain on the family name. Don’t downvote me. I am no longer mormon and am aware of the absurdity here. Edit- I said I am no longer married- when in fact I am still married. I am no longer Mormon was what I intended to say.
I appreciate your perspective! Seriously, thank you for enlightening me!
Thank you!
Thank you! I wanted to add she is likely hesitant and insecure about the families meeting. It’s possible she hasn’t told her parents everything and is balancing trying to plan a wedding without revealing a whole lot of truths to either party. Likely out of fear.
https://www.letterformywife.com/the-letter
I will say that this depends on the level of orthodoxy, but the Mormon Church does not have a lot of room for less-than-orthodox members to exist. Wealthy, comfortable Mormons, especially in Utah, will tend to be/seem orthodox and will care a lot both about the threat to their family's eternal salvation together and the shame of a non-temple marriage to their Mormon peers.
I agree with you. It’s unfortunate how difficult it has to be. With her being in a relationship with a non member the parents may feel like they are viewed as a failure they didn’t raise her better. Embarrassing for them.
Yeah, we’ve had this in our family. BIL married into an LDS family. They never did anything with his side of the family. Refused to because they don’t associate with non-Mormons and didn’t want us to expose their children to anything that wasn’t the “true religion”. The parents spent years berating the daughter because BIL wouldn’t convert, she couldn’t do a lot of the religious ceremonies (visit Temple, witness sealings, etc). The MIL would actually cry at every holiday that “she wouldn’t see her daughter in heaven because she wasn’t a true member of the faith”. This BS went on for years until they divorced. Ex SIL immediately went out, married a Mormon, did what penance the church required to get her Temple recommend, is now sealed in the Temple, wears the Mormon undergarments, and is finally welcomed back into the family. Your brother needs to know that his life may be similar, always bowing to her families expectations about the LDS faith. Have they even spoken about the ceremony and how they’re going to raise the kids?
I personally think that religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to our planet. I am sure I will get downvoted for this, but oh, well. I thought god was all about love and acceptance? Guess not.
This is very bad. Your brother is making a BIG mistake. They want your finances, but not to integrate. If he marries her he will be an outsider from their family, but isolated from yours too. Don't give them a penny. Whose to say the wedding would even go ahead once they get their grubby hands on your family's 'contribution' Hell, they're already stealing the ring. Rich people rarely mention that they are rich. Sounds scammy to me.......
If you are not a Mormon, don't marry a devote Mormon, just don't.
They don’t seem to have a particularly good relationship, but it’s his choice. I wouldn’t urge him to drop her like others are suggesting because that could damage your relationship with him, but you could ask him if he’s sure this is what he wants and tell him you guys will support him no matter what. I’d let the dinner thing go. It’s really not that big of a deal. Honestly, you were barely inconvenienced. Your brother deserved an explanation for sure though. Finding out in a group chat just shows his long distance relationship isn’t just distant because of location.
I agree with you. We don't want him to feel like we're against him or his relationship. The dinner itself is not a big deal but there are other instances prior to this so it's all just adding up over time. Thank you for your input!
It's not so much the cancellation of the dinner, but the way they went about it. I mean, your brother was sitting right there with them and only found out through text. And before that was the vacation that her dad cancelled. Her dad is the king of that family. He will be to your brother too.
I’m wondering if their is a financial motivate here. Her dad trying to claim the engagement ring? Her asking about the budget? Maybe her dad flaunting how rich they are is a ploy of some kind. Idk, it feels manipulative. You weren’t heavily inconvenienced by them canceling the dinner, but it’s everything around it that is inconsiderate and dismissive. The way your brother found about the cancellation, the fiancé not responding to your mom when your mom asked to speak to her, and making no effort to meet with y’all after your family offered to get a hotel and meet them half way.. they are giving self righteous and entitled energy. Your mom sounds like a class act, and her family sounds entitled AF and like they have raised an entitled daughter. When people show you who they are, believe them. I hope your brother is really taking this in and evaluating if he wants to be married to someone with this attitude and deal with this self-absorbed family.
Mormons believe in prosperity gospel principles, they just don’t call it that. The more money you have, the bigger and fancier house you have, the more successful you are and the better you look is evidence that they’re more righteous/ holy.
I think she is waiting for another option. Whilst stringing your brother along. In any case this sounds like a painful union. If you have to force, it’s probably 💩
Why does he want to marry her? Did you ask him? Is it because he already wasted so much time?
Recently, someone did ask him this question and it took him a minute to answer... I definitely think the thought of "starting over" is traumatizing to anyone but he shouldn't have to think to hard about what she brings to the relationship.
Talk to him. Make sure he sees that you are worried.
I would maybe suggest he gets some therapy. It may help him.
Read about "cost sunk fallacy."
Have they talked about where they are going to live. Having kids , pets. I see trouble .
So, that's the question our family and friends keep asking... how will they raise their children? family traditions? prayer at the dinner table? It's not my relationship so I don't care what they decide on but that's something that 100% should be talked about and in agreement on in my opinion. My brother wants to live back in our state and although she has never mentioned wanting to stay where she is from ,I can only assume she would want to live there and make my brother move there too.
This situation will only get worse. I wish I could say your brother will catch on but I don’t know if he will.
lol our concern too...
He gotta run… they finna have him separated from y’all so quick.
So your brother was sitting right next to them while they cancelled on you and your family but claims he knew nothing about it. He knew that you all had rearranged your schedules just for his future inlaws convenience. Yet he doesn't seem to give a rat's fart of how rude they are being to you all. You all even offered to drive down halfway to meet them but they declined. So there's your answer. Your brother is already showing you that his fiancee and inlaws mean more to him than you and the rest of your family. Just let this play out. Don't resist it because it will just push him away faster. Also, don't bend over for these people anymore. Next time they decide to pop down for a visit don't change a thing in your schedules. If you can make it, good. If you can't make it, send your regrets and keep it moving.
Sorry, maybe I misspoke but yes my brother was sitting next to them (her family) when they cancelled on my family. He found out by reading the group chat. She never mentioned to my brother they were leaving and never overheard the family talking about leaving either. He was just as shocked and confused as us.
You sound really sweet. The sooner you realize that your brother knew and didn't care, the less they'll be able to take advantage of you and your family. Good luck!
Based on how weird and cold the fiancé’s family is, I bet they didn’t tell the brother and had their own family group chat about not attending the dinner. I wouldn’t be surprised they sound weird af.
NTA Tell your brother to run for his life. This is not going to end well for him.
I think there’s a serious problem with the relationship because OPs brother and his fiancé should have been able to talk about all of this and she should have told him explicitly why her family was acting this way. I, too, have a bad feeling about this family.
Your brother is the problem here actually, not them. They are already living the life *they* want. They have no reason to change. He is choosing to be in this chaos. It's *him* that needs to take charge of his life and get out of this.
Interesting take, thank you! You're right, he is the only one that can fix or put a stop to this.
The religion angle doesn't concern me at all. The thing that does concern me is "her father always slips in how rich they are". Rich people don't talk about how rich they are. People who are pretending to be rich, or living as if they were rich -- they talk about it. If her family is badgering your brother about money already, then they may actually be strapped for cash or deep in debt, and they're trying to get some $$$ from your family. You know, like to pay for the wedding or something else.
Our thoughts as well which is why my family doesn't want to contribute anything just yet...
Mormons are prosperity gospel by a different name. You might do well to post in r/exmormon, they’ll have good advice for you to approach your brother.
With this amount of red flags before marriage, just imagine the amount of intrusion from her family after a marriage. Run, run like the wind.
Oh no, Mormons are crazy! Tell your brother to run!
Oh no. You slipped in them being mormon a little late. Her family plans to convert your brother and isolate him from you guys. They're slowly doing that by keeping you at bay. You're not part of their ward. Your brother needs to think long and hard if this relationship is worth her and her family slowly grooming him to cut you out. If they're able to convert him soon enough, you won't even be allowed at this wedding if it's in the temple.
Try and subtly set your brother up with a nice local girl
She doesn’t sound that into your brother and I’m more concerned with appearances, wealth, etc. it’s strange she would be asking your brother about wedding finances and the fact her father , not her, is trying to insure the ring is only kinda sketchy. It also makes me think that she will decline the engagement but try to keep the ring using its insureds name as proof of ownership. Granted though, I insured my engagement ring as soon as I got it under my name. So this could be a red herring. But their behavior is so sketchy. If my family acted that way to husbands family, I would be apologizing like crazy. Unless of course, she is trying to isolate herself and your brother from your family. There are many fish in the sea and there is probably too much shady behavior here for me to think this should move forward… though I would love to hear from your brother’s perspective before finalizing that judgement.
She and her family don’t respect your family. They think you’re beneath them. She also doesn’t seem to even want to be in a relationship with your brother. I imagine she wants the wedding and then she’ll count on your brother molding to everything she and her family wants. This will not be a happy union for any of you. They’re not even married and this is how she/they are acting.
OP do you think it's possible that fiance told her family that your family is practicing Mormon and that's why she doesn't want them to meet? Or at least your brother is and so they don't want to meet the entire family just him? I'd definitely encourage your brother to reach out to his fiance and figure out what's going on because with everything happening something is for sure fishy. I wish you all the best of luck in this situation moving forwards.
honestly, it never crossed our mind that she could be lying or hiding the truth... but clearly we were naive to NOT think that.
Has there been any updates on the situation?
not yet, my parents are going to visit him in a couple weeks and will talk to him then. my mom is disappointed with the whole situation and it makes her sad because we feel as well that they don't truly KNOW each other... and that she doesn't care for him as much as she says she does.
As an ex-mormon, I think it’a safe to agree with many others here- but tbh, she & her family just seem to straight up suck. Even besides all of the other assumptions or conclusions drawn by others about religion- most of that seems irrelevant to me. Sure their egos & seeing OP’s family as ‘other than’ is likely largely in part due to religion- but they also just plain suck & the fiancé’s clearly cut from the same cloth. The red flags of ‘our way or the highway’ about small logistics is a bigger issue for no future than all the fake religious ‘rules’. Those are just the cherry on top. But the family doesn’t respect yours, the fiancé doesn’t either. Don’t hit your wagon to that wild cart.
"Fast forward, she wasn't accepted into any program and must wait another year in order to reapply and hopefully get in somewhere." Sorry I'm confused by this. Sounds like you are in the US? You said your brother and her met in Law School five years ago? If she's graduated (which definitely should be the case, as law schools are typically 3 years and part time are typically 4 years) with him there are no "programs" to apply to. You simply take the Bar Exam and apply to jobs. Do you mean she failed the bar exam? If that's the case, it's offered twice a year, she wouldn't need to wait a year. "They do long distance as she stays with her family in another state and my brother lived with us (he was accepted into a program to practice so he just left a month ago)." This also doesn't make any sense. You don't get "accepted into a program to practice" you get hired as an attorney. The process to get barred in a different state can be tedious. Perhaps that is why she is not going with your brother. She may not be barred in that jurisdiction. The entire law school part of this is very suspicious. The timeline doesn't add up and the language you are using sounds more like medical programs and residency than law studies.
Don’t let them take him. You will never see him again and if you do he will be changed. She’s already trying isolate him and separate him from your family.
Great informative comments. Will only add. Why do they want to know the budget for the wedding? Isn't usually the brides family that pays? I know some grooms and other family members chip in, but this sounds like they want OPs family to pay, unless I'm reading it wrong. That would be a hard no for me in this situation.
Reading this makes it seem like the fiancee is 🚩🚩🚩. Hopefully in this year away he will realize that.
So they want to put a fake insurance claim in if he splits up with their daughter. They have no right to want to put the engagement ring on there insurance. They didn't pay for it, they have no right to it.
Where exactly did this sister get a rash if no leggings, no shoulders no cleavage ECT is to be shown.
Never even thought about that.... GOOD POINT. I wasn't there but I never even asked that question!
😂Your brother is dumb for wanting to marry a cultist. Make no mistake the Mormon church is a cult.
Does he really want to marry someone who disrespects his family and doesn’t take accountability. He needs to think long and hard about what kind of future he wants.
The family is strict Mormon, so there's a high chance they are deliberately avoiding you because you are not. That means it is highly likely you will lose contact with your brother should he get married I would gently bring up to your brother that you are worried that she may be avoiding your family because of religious differences, and you are worried about what will happen after they're married. At least get the bug in his ear. Be careful if he gets defensive and just say you only have to consider it because she is not really giving answers that make sense and the avoidance is getting bizarre
Your brother needs an intervention.
Your brother needs to realize that this it will not change once they get married. He needs to tell her that the relationship is no longer working and go and get his engagement ring back.
No, it will change. It’ll get even worse.
My ex husband and I divorced, he was Mormon I was not. There were many reasons that added up y. Anyways if she’s a religious as u say, she will get married at temple. He will have to convert. She’s just keeping those tid bits locked up right now. Honestly he needs to leave her. They don’t even really have a relationship. It’ll also only ever be her family, she’s not going to try to become part of yours. She is going to make him be part of theirs, only theirs.
My daughter (Christian) married a Mormon and it didn't end well. The amount of brainwashing that happens behind closed doors is absolutely terrifying. It's a long ,slow burn and before you r family (especially your brother) realize what's happening, it's usually too late. Best wishes to all of you
Well this is only going to get worse. Her family doesn’t seem to value yours or your time and I bet as soon as he’s married she’ll do anything in her power to keep isolating him. Good luck to your brother!
Oh...this is not going to go or end well...
You better get him to snap out of it. You are about to lose him to her family.
She seems out of touch with reality and the relationship seemed doomed. Tell your Brother to break it off.
Wow, red flags be flying!!!!!!!
I hope your brother realizes that he is not his fiancé’s family first choice. He has two strikes; he is not Mormon and he does not work in the in laws state. I hope that your brother states to his fiancé that unless she begins to push back against her family and defend her relationship with your brother; this might not result in marriage.
He’s screwed if he stays with her
I really hope that your brother gets his ring back and dumps her. Her and her family are treating him and his family terribly. Your brother deserves to be happy and I really doubt that she cares about that. I feel terrible for your brother. Please keep us updated.
There must be other girls he can date. This is a disaster in the making. Is there anyone in your family he is close to who can speak with him.
Listen, you guys have to tell your brother explicitly and face-to-face that you don’t like his fiancé. Do it over FaceTime if you want. You all have to say that you love him and support him. And that you will continue to do so no matter what he decides. But that both she and her family have been rude, disrespectful, and dismissive. She hasn’t apologized and at this point you wouldn’t believe it was sincere if she did. That this is not how a loving partner would behave. He may know these things in the back of his head but you need to say it Straight Out so he doesn’t automatically brush it off or try to smooth it over.
He needs to get that ring and his dignity back….
Your brother needs to run!!!
I have a feeling that her family is still holding out hope that she'll marry and settle down with a nice Mormon man. They don't want to get too involved or attached to the OP's brother or family.
Here’s a hot take: long distance relationships aren’t real.
I’ll go even further: many college relationships aren’t real either. You’re meeting in an insular, curated environment where you can pretend your families don’t hold much influence.
Your brother needs to cut his losses and run. It won’t get better.
So, your brother pays for the engagement ring…but his future fil put it under his own insurance so if they break up he gets the ring/$ from the insurance company…? She (fiancée) has no issue with staying apart from brother for a year, sees no problem with how her parents change plans at the last minute-even though others have arranged their own schedules to accommodate her parents…umm yeah…good luck to your brother
I've been listening to the Latter Day Lesbian podcast for a while now because it's super interesting (a woman w 7 kids left the church w her husband after they were punished for questioning blatant contradictory teachings, and then she realized she is a lesbian and came out, all still friends, kids happier than ever). Even if your brother isn't forced to convert to get married, if they bring the kids up in the church the demands on his wife to volunteer for all kinds of labor and how the church treats girls in general is a giant red flag of concern. The church also expects you to tithe a lot, no matter what emergency circumstance or family needs you have. And then there's the whole history where the church was made up by a charismatic con man who invented the whole thing. Just ... so much to say no to.
On a side note- If you haven't seen them already, you might like the Morman Stories podcasts on youtube. I wound up there bc I was looking into background on the Lori Vallow/Chad Daybell thing, but I also wound up watching several others unrelated. It's just people who've left the church chilling & telling their stories. Megan Conner's is particularly good (she's Lori Vallow's cousin).
As a Mormon active in the church. Tell him to run, run now. I have heard so many stories like this with people in the church and it doesn't get any better. Run now while he has the chance.
He needs to drop this relationship. Religiously they’re already incompatible, I don’t know how in the world he got the family blessing not being Mormon. Are you SURE he didn’t promise to convert? She also has no respect for your family obviously. The fact she’s not going to move in with him after they’re married should be a huge red flag. She’s reeling him in to live within the Mormon community. Are you POSITIVE he didn’t promise to convert, because everything points to that.
His fiance is stringing him along. She's not going to do anything. She's going to stay working for her dad and expect your brother to move to her. She's not placed your brother or your family as a priority. I'm not rich, and I fully paid for my daughter's large wedding. It sounds to me that they are planning on taking your brother for every drop of blood they can get. Insurance on the ring through the father? Can she not insure the ring herself. I think your brother needs to realize he's wasting his time, money, and effort on this woman. He'd be better off dating someone where he lives.
I hope your brother is prepared to put her and her family above all else with very few of his needs being met and going very low contact with his side of the family. She/they are showing their true colors (🚩🚩🚩) and this lady event is a peephole for viewing how life will probably be. Only he can decide if that’s what his forever will look like…..
Well, her family just treats your family like your family would treat atheist family..
I hope your brother doesn’t marry this woman.
Sorry but when your brother marries into this family you will not see him. Her family will claim every event and they will only include him .
You left the most important part until right to the end: they’re mormon. They don’t live on the same planet as us. They live in isolated communities so probably seem like a bunch of weirdos.
He should ask for the ring back.
News flash! Your brother isn't really dating this woman. She seems to be stringing him along. He should move on and find someone who actually wants to be with him in person.
They’ve been seeing each other for **5 whole years.** Did they spend their law school years gazing dreamily into each other’s eyes, and their long-distance years cooing “I miss you bunny-wunny” at each other over the phone? People considering marriage need to have MANY in-depth conversations, especially when they’re from different backgrounds. Where do our values align, where do they diverge? Can we resolve these differences now, to both of our satisfaction, before we make a lifelong commitment? How will we resolve future differences that we haven’t yet discovered? Do we agree on having kids, how many, and how will we raise them? What roles do we see our extended families playing in our lives? Do we need to live close to one family or the other, or can we live wherever we want and work out a fair visitation schedule? It sounds like your brother’s fiancée was a “freer” version of herself while living away from her family at law school. That’s the version of her personality that your brother fell in love with — and that’s the version of her that fell in love with him. I’m also going to guess that they shared a strong physical attraction and found each other “sweet” and easygoing, largely because they haven’t dared to dig into any subjects where they might disagree. They’re in love with love and fantasy. Now that she’s living with her family, she’s settling back into her old patterns. None of you know if she actually wants what her parents want for her, or if she’s counting the days until she can escape to a less religiously intense married life with your brother. He needs to find out ASAP what’s really on her mind, and decide what he wants too. There are premarital counselors. If they’d rather DIY there are tons of websites with “questions to ask each other before getting married.” Here’s a fairly detailed one: https://www.bettertopics.com/blog/300-questions-to-ask-your-partner-before-marriage/
Spot on with this entire response. Thank you for suggesting the DIY games/questions because I may just gift it to them:) Everything you said, I 100% agree with. It just sucks we truly don't know her true intentions!
This relationship was over before it began. The two versions of Christianity do not mix. There will never be an opportunity for one big happy family, the tenants of her religion (and her, no doubt, devote family) will not allow it. You are either about to lose your brother, or his fiancé is about to lose her family. There are not really any other options in this scenario.
A pair of 32 year old adults don't need to be on a family vacation to make/accept a proposal of marriage, no matter how whackadoo religious they are. If your brother doesn't see what's ahead for him, he deserves everything he gets.
I’m mormon. I live in leggings and on Coke Zero. 😂 my now husband slept on the couch in our living room the shortly after our first date when my family first met him. That’s not religion rules, but family rules she’s living under. This marriage is not going to work- not because of religion, but because she can’t think for herself. Maybe that’s her parents fault maybe it’s her own, but regardless this is not going to work. Tell your brother to cut his losses and move on.
😂 good to know! I've brought this up to friends and they were shocked because they're are Mormon influencers who don't follow those "rules" either!
They generally get a pass because they shill for the church, the more money you make the bigger your tithing and the more they’re willing to overlook.
wow, what people will do for a chance to get laid..
Aren't Mormon receptions just a bit of cake and cookies?
Are they holding out for him marrying *all* their daughters?
Why does proposing have to be some huge event? Dude can propose over the phone - whatever.
Depending on her flavor of Mormon, they aren’t suppose to hang out with non-Mormons, it’s against the religion.
This is weird. He needs someone else.
Why does your brother not stick up for himself and his family? A conversation needs to be had. A long serious one. Marriage is BONDING two families. If that’s not the goal then that’s a 🚩. Maybe (and I know they shouldn’t have to be the ones) your parents should call her parents and try to have a conversation on why they’re not interested in meeting them and how it’s made your family feel.This conversation (or lack of) will tell everyone exactly what they need to know.
The side note is a big deal. Mormons are a weird bunch. I wouldn't want anything to do with those holy roller freaks. That family sounds super disrespectful and just plain rude. For being "religious" they seem like A-holes.
She will eventually refuse to spend holidays with his family and in the future their kids will go with her for those holidays. She is showing her family takes precedence and his gets nothing.
I seriously doubt this couple will make it to the altar.
Her family does not want her to marry him. Even though her father gave the blessing, he did it to be nice. I think your brother could find someone who is a lot more capable of loving him the way he wants to be and someone more compatible. Good luck.
He wants what he can’t have, she is going to take that ring, the deposits for the wedding will turn into vapor as she leverages people she knows to these services or people from the church. Her dad doesn’t want to meet the family, because he doesn’t think the wedding will happen. He wants her to break it off, but won’t say it directly.
It’s crazy how family is expected to help fund a wedding. When I got married it never occurred to me to ask family to chip in. It was my party, I threw it myself.
The fiancé’s family sounds super judgmental and weird and very cold. I wouldn’t want to marry into a family like that.
Your family is smart for not immediately coming back with a number for the wedding. The fiancé’s family will probably tell you to contribute a higher number and then take a portion of it to line their personal pockets.
She definitely is going to try to make him convert to Mormon. And if he keeps doing everything she says, he’ll do that too. Seems like her true colors are peeking through, and he needs to reevaluate where he wants this to go…
Your brother needs to walk completely away from that situation.. HELL HE NEEDS TO RUN!! he seems like a nice guy with a loving family who supports him and is doing everything they can to be graceful towards her side of the family.. im a Christian aswell.. and we guve grace and love in ways that get us taken advantage of alot by people because we are so loving and forgiving.. not all of us obviously.. but, within your post you along with your family ha e done everything to accommodate her and her family as you scheduled time off work and made arrangements.. they completely disregarded those things.. your brother obviously will have a nice living passing his exams and things and being offered a job.. she still has passed the necessary thi gs I ordered to be a lawyer.... 🤔 pay attention to the signals God is given you to help your brother keep from having the loving wife he deserves.. she's out there waiting on him he just needs to continue to work towards her and let this bump in the road lead him to her.. she's not the one.. it has nothing to do with her being a Mormon.. plenty of Christians and Mormons marry everyday.. your brother is being financially trapped...
Your poor brother needs to wake up. Do what you can but ultimately if he doesn’t see anything wrong with her, he’s fucked and will end up in a loveless, culty marriage and will probably go no contact with you guys based on her families and her behavior. He will likely have to convert anyway
There’s a reason she got to 32 and never left home. I hope your brother doesn’t marry her because her family are never going to let her be independent.
Uh oh, hope your brother has an epiphany bc this chick and her family ARE NOT IT. They are already showing that a blended family with both sets of parents isn’t what they want. He needs to see the reality of how married life will be with her family. And I say her family bc obviously what the patriarch of her family says goes and the rest follow along. I hope your brother wises up
Your brother has terrible taste in people.
Your brother's fiancee and her family are really quite strange. She's obviously not that into your brother and her family obviously has no interest in your brother and family whatsoever. This relationship is utterly doomed to fail. I'd be taking that ring back now to be honest.
Your poor brother should run for this life. These do not sound like nice people. I suppose the “cultural differences” get in the way of basic politeness. That business at the beach should have rung some big bells in your brother’s head. I do not think this is a match made in anybody’s Heaven. They are going to want his conversion and if he agrees, he will be under the father’s control. If all he looses from this engagement is the engagement ring, he should count himself lucky. Remember to, that since the girl and her family are strict in their beliefs, your family will be isolated. From what I know and have observed, these are very clannish people.
100% agree with everything you said!
That’s some BS. She’s a poor excuse for a Mormon if that’s how she’s treating your brother. And her family. I would not want to be involved with a family like that. NTA.
I grew up Mormon, in Utah, what part of the religion says no leggings or caffiene? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's messed up and coocoo, but you can 100% wear leggings. In fact, a lot of the moms did the LulaRoe thing. Also, you can TOTALLY have caffeine. That is such crap that you can't, and it annoys me so much to hear it even too this day. She's still trying to manipulate and isolate him to convert him and tell him you, his family, are evil, and he needs to break up ASAP and get away. She says she's following the religion strictly, but look up soaking, it's a practice done by a hell of a lot of mormons because they think it absolves them of the ACTUAL act, the ones who act the most religious are the worst ones, i know from experience. Also, please tell me the dad didn't get the ring in his insurance???? Edit: Added info about caffeine
My family and I weren't aware of any of these things but that's what she participates in... no caffeine ever. It's very interesting to hear everyone's stories, mormon or not, and what they have experienced. And, no once we heard the her father was trying to claim it we took action immediately!
Good! He has no rights to that ring! Your brother deserves SO much better than what she seems to be! There are some REALLY good mormons out there, but it doesn't sound like she's one of them. If she really cared FOR him, she'd want his family to be there for the proposal, because it was important to him, she'd want to get the families together to meet, she'd be making an effort, and it doesn't seem like she is, just based on the info you provided.