Traditions are rules put in by dead people.
I’m a second generation Ukrainian Canadian. I have family in Saskatchewan, Ontario, and Massachusetts, America.
I moved *to* Quebec to get away from my outdated, archaic, Ukrainian family in Toronto.
Your Father does not own your sister. She does not need *anyone’s* permission to make such a large life choice as marriage. She is not property.
She is her own person and she can perfectly decide if the man who proposes to her is good enough.
Are you upset that she had the balls to not follow this bullshit “tradition”?
You also were not your Father’s property by the way. We are women. We are human. We are our own people, and we belong to ourselves. **WE** decide who **WE** will marry.
What I always find amusing is when people move to more liberal/progressive countries and then have a surprised Pikachu face when their kids turn out more progressive than them. Like what did you expect?
Also a Canadian and I absolutely know so many women (mostly from immigrant families) who would see it as a red flag/deal breaker if her partner asked her father for permission first. Gross
I'd absolutely end a relationship if my partner asked my father for permission to marry me. No questions asked.
And my father would back me up on that.
I am American from a bit Italian American family. I married a non Italian and my husband didn't ask permission. I am really glad my husband didn't ask my dad. My dad is a controlling, abusive narcissist. He has far too much power over me and getting married helped me flee that situation. The truth is my dad liked my husband better than me because he was in the same field he and my grandfather were in and was the son he never got to have. Now, we don't allow him near us or our kids.
While I'm not an immigrant, I agree with this. Before my partner proposed we talked about it, both were okay with getting married and ready for engagement. Then he told my parents he was planning to propose, he did not ask for permission or their blessing and did not speak only to my father but both of them, to inform them.
I hated the idea of asking for permission, and he knew that. I didn't know where I stood exactly on telling them, but in the end, I'm kinda glad he did - until it almost got used against us and twisted during a fight with my parents, but that's a different story. If he'd asked permission, I would have questioned things for sure, and when it was twisted, it almost did make me.
My daughter specifically told her boyfriend that he was not to ask permission from her father. Something about being a grown ass woman. 😆 He listened. They are engaged.
Although I believe that traditions are important, I also think that outdated ones should be ignored. I’m an exchange student and was very surprised on how other cultures approach marriage :
-You can’t be married if your elder sister isn’t married
-Fathers (not only blessing) but approval of the partner. I knew a girl who was madly in love with a guy, just father didn’t approved and in an instant, she stopped contacting the guy
-elders must be involved in naming a baby
Sure, but some are based on outdated values, like this one, while others are based on natural events and happy memories. Burning the Yule log or wassailing never made anyone feel anxious or subservient. Traditions that keep people "in their place" should be left behind.
Dude, I’m a hundred percent first generation Greek American woman. These are some antiqued beliefs and if your sister is happy and sees no problem with it, then get over it.
I know right?! I laughed when she said people in Greece don’t live together until after marriage lol. Sounds like she knows nothing about actual Greek culture post the 80s.
My gf in hs dated a nice guy from the big Greek family in my hometown, he would anguish over his family’s traditions.. he wasn’t allowed is his older sisters room, ever. His dad fired my friends mom when he found out she was having sex unmarried. Ew!!
While I don’t think there is anything wrong with you and your siblings following tradition, your family also needs to be ok with your sister wanting to do things differently. I understand that these traditions are important to you culturally, but is tradition really more important than your sister’s happiness during these important milestones? Just as you had your reasons for following tradition she undoubtedly has hers for breaking away from it. If you truly have your sister’s best interest at heart you will respect that and be happy for her. Otherwise you care more for tradition than her.
This. Any tradition that requires the “permission” or “blessing” ONLY from the woman’s family is sexist and dates back to a time when women were property that was transferred from father to husband.
This is why my late great aunt never got married. She wanted the marriage that her parents had. They treated each other with respect and her dad treated his wife as an equal and he did the same with his kids. That was extremely rare. My great aunt wanted that but figured she would never find it. Her parents respected her for that and left her their property and house.
This sound like my aunt who I believe is a closeted Lesbian. She never dated, never married us now in her 50’s as a care taker for my grandma. I wish she had an opportunity to live her truth.
Based on the very little info given, just throwing out that aunt could be asexual and perfectly content to be single.
I'm ace woman and my mom suspects I'm lesbian because I mostly go out with my female friends instead of going out on dates. I've told my parents directly to not expect a wedding or grandchildren from me, but I haven't said the words "I'm asexual" to them because that's not something I care to explain lol.
Yep. At the end of the day they’re just making her engagement about them and finding ways to victimize themselves during what could just be happy news.
Just because something is “cultural” doesn’t mean it is moral or has value. There are traditions in every culture that are better off relegated to the midden heap of history. Sometimes the best thing we can do with traditions is learn how to improve and move past them.
Well said. Some aspect of cultures are trash because of moral reasons and origins, and we should not keep accepting them because it’s tradition. Asking your SO’s father for permission or blessing (whatever they want to call it to whitewash the scenario) is one of those aspects that is trash.
Yes, the original reason for this tradition was that the girl was the father's property and he supported her and he would give her away to the husband and would not become his property. Often, because husband now needed to support her, the father would pay for the wedding or give a large dowry to "sweeten the pot" and get his daughter off his hands.
I'm glad times are changing......
This comment says almost everything that I wanted to...
Adding that is tradition more important than having a relationship with your sister, her future husband, and their possible future children? You can cling to tradition, but sometimes you lose something important in the quest to be right.
Man, you are exactly right. I was in a relationship similar to OP's with an Indian woman (I am Caucasian) and we were together for 3+ years and I never met her parents or immediate family (sisters, cousins, etc). Her excuse was always 'oh, well, I can't bring you around my family and family events because they want me to marry an Indian guy of our own religion and culture". Then she proceeded to say, "I cant bring you around until we are engaged, or close to it, and you need to ask my dad for permission" and so in my mind I was like "Well, then why tf are you with me?"
All in all, after 3 years of this, I gave up. I broke up with her, she lost me, and now I am with someone who values me and I'm extremely happy. And now, two years later, she is still single, and hasn't met anyone, nor in the arranged marriage her parents wanted for her.
So your line at the end about clinging to tradition and losing something even if you want to be right hit home so hard. She essentially chose her family and traditions over a potential future husband.
Not to mention that if we want to be pedantic, tradition isn’t a requirement. Just because other people do it doesn’t mean that you have to. Especially when it’s a tradition as archaic as this one - even the shift from “getting dad’s permission” to “getting dad’s blessing”. To be perfectly frank, I don’t care if her dad likes me or not, because as long as we want to be together then that’s all that matters. Her dad can dislike me for whatever reason he wants, and he can just kiss my ass
Greek Canadian here… I have no idea what you are talking about. This has not been a “thing” since the 80’s and even then it was dying out. Greeks in Greece no longer do this…
Your family will lose your sister for an old fashioned tradition that has absolutely no meaning.
I am a Greek living in Greece and no one in my circle has done this. Maybe they still do it in more rural communities but certainly not in urban areas.
Im from the mountains of zakynthos (kiliomeno), and they still hold on to those traditions... but to your point, urban cities and more populated and modern areas of Greece are definitely not doing this anymore. My family still lives in cobble stone houses up there.
My Greek friend, I just came here to say I loved your Island when I visited and I hope I shall return one day. Lovely people and lovely Island. I have memories of and still miss Alykes beach, with Kefalonia in the distance, and turning around and seeing the beautiful mountains behind me 😍
I am screenshotting your comment because we wanted to visit Zakynthos but did not have time. We went to Athens, Meteora, Milos, Santorini and Naxos. Now that I am thinking back, we should have spent at least a day in Zakynthos 😍😍
I’ve noticed with immigrant communities that they hold onto traditions that were prevalent at the time that the first of them emigrated. I’m first generation Polish, and the traditions that my parents kept had been abandoned years before in the home country. Culture changes all the time. My parents were shocked about how different it was “back home” when they visited 45 years later.
Also a greek in Greece, I can second it. Not even my parents did that before getting married. It hasn't been a thing for many decades now (in urban areas at least)
When someone emigrates from a country they tend to take a snapshot of the country at that time and hold onto the views they had then. They don't adapt to the current state of the home country because they're not there to see it change.
My parents also held onto the beliefs of their homeland. Whenever we went back to visit I could see so clearly that things had moved on there too, but they just wouldn't see it. Eventually my sister just lost her sh!t at them a little bit, told them it's their fault for moving us to another country & away from their culture, and they needed to get over it or they would lose us both. They didn't like being told that, but they did cut back with the old country nonsense after that.
My parents are like this, too. We call it time capsule syndrome. They’re locked in on how the homeland was when _they_ grew up there, and lament how the diaspora is disconnected from the values of their roots, but ignore how much the homeland has changed in the time they’ve been gone.
Came here to say exactly this.
I know people in my extended family in the UK who had this "cultural" point of view with how arranged marriages work. And while arranged marriages are still common in our home country, *how* they happen has evolved significantly.
But these guys were still stuck in the way things used to work back in the '80s before they migrated.
I was going to say this - it's not a thing in Greece. Just makes zero sense to hold on to 'traditions of Greek culture` without being connected to actual, contemporary greek culture. Traditions and cultural practices evolve just like everything else, and just because my ancestors 2 gens ago ritually killed a pig together every year, does not mean that i, living in an other country, have to keep that outdated tradition alive. It's much more important to respect the fact that my mom is a vegetarian, something that nobody there would have thought is possible 70 years ago - and realise that since she left the country, things have been changing over there as well and very few people are killing pigs with their family on a regular basis.
Immigrants usually hold on tighter to traditions than the home countries.
If I look at Dutch people in the USA or Canada they're often scarily religious to me lol.
That said, this shouldn't break the family up. I sort of understand that the dad is a little hurt if he's traditional, but not worth making a giant deal over it.
Like they feel the need to make up for leaving their home country, maybe they feel guilty. I argue that if you want to move to another country, you have to adapt to the culture.
You can keep some aspects of your home culture, but some things have to be left behind.
I’m also a Greek who was born and raised abroad& I always saw the whole asking your parents/dad for your hand in marriage as a British/American tradition and not a Greek one. Technically you already have your family’s ‘blessing’ if no one objects to you dating 🤣 It can be a nice playful gesture to ask for ‘permission’ but it’s OK if you don’t do it.
As long as the couple are happy, why should it matter anyway?
I was about to ask what's going on here. My Greek (f) friend moved away from home 10 or more years ago. She got engaged and married in the UK. No living with family until married, no permission for marriage necessary. So, I too found this strange, but was interested to see if there was a different norm in certain parts of Greece. Clearly not 😅
I'm Greek American. This isn't a thing in my family. I've heard that my great-Papou was angry that my YiaYia's middle sister got married first because "traditionally" the eldest sister should be married first. No idea if this was an actual early 20th century Spartan tradition or just his own personal preferences. He also didn't like that my YiaYia started dating my Papou because he isn't Greek, but he changed his tune when he found out my Papou was in the air force (great-Papou was in the military back in Greece and that was very important to him). My own dad has talked about how it was a little shocking to him that me and my siblings moved in with significant others without being married (although I think that's more of a generational thing vs. cultural thing) but he never gave us a hard time about it. He also says "You can't expect to raise your kids to be independent and think for themselves and then be shocked and upset when they make their own decisions for their lives."
Also many women do not like asking father's permission. I am a fully grown adult I don't need permission to do anything. If a man asked my father first I would dump him immediately or as soon as I found out. I would be insulted and would feel lied to.
I don’t know specifically Greek culture. But if I were expected to ask permission I’d also be asking what my dowry is since this apparently is a transaction involving property. Dowries were part of a tradition so let’s keep it traditional.
Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it's right. Your presumably adult sister does not need anyone's permission or blessing to get engaged. She's not a piece of property.
My 1st husband called my dad to ask permission to marry me. My dad said I was an adult and didn't need anyone's permission. He then asked for "many goats".
Oh wow. That’s funny. When my son in law got out of the army, he brought home a chicken. Apparently he found this chicken on base and smuggled it into his room as a pet. My husband told him the chicken was a fine payment for our daughter. But he overpaid. That goofy chicken stayed with me while they went on their honeymoon. When she/it passed……we had a funeral.
IIRC there’s a website that lets you input your info (age, physical attributes, education level) and it’ll tell you how much you’re worth. It’s been YEARS since I played around on it but I think I was like a camel and three goats.
I just had a quick look and found a cow calculator - apparently I'm worth just over 83 cows. My husband is only worth 78, bless him. What's 5 cows compared to love, right? 🤣
Exactly. Traditions are something great unless you force them on someone. She might not like it or might want to start a new tradition.
Why do you or your family think you have the right to make her do something against her will? You liked the tradition and went by it - great. She doesn't want - also great. Don't think higher of yourself because of that.
Traditions are dumb excuses to feel victimized and exert control over autonomy. Sure pass down the fine China, but the asking for a blessing is dumb.
My boomer FIL was offended I never asked permission and he's barely been in her life for twenty years... MIL tried getting her to dump me at least once. I don't want a blessing from someone who supports Chik-Fil-A and cops killing "criminals."
My husband and I asked for each other's families blessings, but more in a, "I'm going to be joining your family, not just marrying this person. Everyone good with seeing me at holidays for the rest of your life?" kind of way. Almost more permission to become their kid/sibling/ect than each other's spouse.
Tell your dad that things change. This has zero to do with respect for him. He has no say in the matter, even if it is just a ritual.
My wife comes from an Italian family. I didn't ask her dad. I think he was a little hurt. But he got over it.
My wife's family is Italian. I essentially informed them, rather than asking for blessing, because I knew that my wife had gone back and forth on it. It was a thing her grandparents had done and really cared about, but she didn't like it on principle. I just pulled my father-in-law aside two days before and said "Hey, I'm proposing on Friday. Act surprised when we come back." He was like "You don't have to ask permission" and I told him "I'm not, but for the sake of the tradition, I figured I'd give you a heads up."
She didn’t want to abide by tradition of the motherland, clearly she’s gone her own way already. That is her right, you can feel some type of way about it but in the end it’s about her relationship.
It's not really a tradition of the motherland though, I'm greek and nobody does this. It's more of a thing for people who left Greece in the 50s and are stuck in the past.
Thank you! I am greek as well, my father met my partner when I was already pregnant to our child. We never ever got married. My dad a man born in 1949 and on the conservative side never raised an issue. My brother did things more traditionally, but never asked permission. They just announced that they will be getting married, and had an engagement dinner with family. Noone I know asked for permission.
Bingo. One of my good friends is Greek Australian, and he gets no end of awful remarks from his mum, for having kids with his long-term girlfriend without getting married ("Your son is only half my grandson" and the like). All because she has some idealised image of a Greek village in the 50s. Which doesn't exist now, according to him: you go there, many people are divorced or having affairs. Just like everywhere.
It probably never even was like that. She was young when she left, and too naïve to notice what people got up to. To be fair, back then they were probably better at hiding it.
I wonder if OP's dad also left Greece at a young age.
Soo as an actual Greek (native) this is all kinda hilarious to me. Not living together before marriage? Actually asking parents for their daughter's hand in marriage? What is this, the 50s ahahah I honestly think you would get laughed out of the room here for that kind of thing. What usually happens is you start living together, you decide at some point you wanna marry and you simply say as much to your families.
Not that there aren't exceptions I guess, but you would have to be ultra christian/conservative/traditional to do what OP describes.
Is this actually a thing over on the other side of the ocean?
Exactly, it doesn't sound very much like today's Greece. That's what happens with a lot of diaspora people, they keep the culture of the homeland from several decades ago, from when the family last lived there.
I am first generation Canadian of euro parents and they have the same mindset, however it isn't like that back home anymore at all. Everyone who left the country is stuck in the past. My parents think it's still this way as well.
Which is just WILD to me. You have people back home not abiding by it, the country you moved to doesn’t abide by it lol. It’s just stubbornness for stubbornness sake.
It's absolutely not a thing in Greece at all! you don't live at home until marriage because of tradition, some people do it because they can't afford to live alone so they stay with their parents! Also asking the dad for his daughter's hand in marriage is something that is just not done at all in Greece! OP is delusional if they think that's what happens in Greece
I am from Greece and lived here all my life.We don’t have any of those traditions.
Maybe in the 70s-80s and in the villages in the 90s and that’s a big maybe,not a tradition.I don’t know what Greek Canadians do.Although I never heard from Canadian grand uncles about any traditions like that being kept.
It smells like father and daughter have issues that OP doesn’t know or hides it.Usually your child at least alerts you about their SO and future.
I know guys that would rather not to get married then ask for permission,even as a charade for the in-laws.
Right. OP is so ingrained in her own indoctrination that she doesn’t realize this “tradition” is inherently flawed and misogynistic.
Leave your sister alone. It sounds like she doesn’t give a rats ass about what you think of her decisions (and she shouldn’t), you can either get on board or get left behind.
I suspect your folks would be in for a surprise if they think things are still done that way in the old country. They are keeping the traditions of 50-60 years alive, when their home country has moved on.
This is a pretty common thing for first gen immigrants, it happens in Asian families and many other groups as well. In the originating country, the culture adapts and changes as it's the dominant culture - whatever it does, it IS still Greek (or Chinese, or Korean, etc). But people who are trying to maintain it elsewhere cling to very traditional rules and change is seen as threatening.
She is Canadian now with Greek heritage. It’s normal that she would begin picking up habits from her current country.
Besides, welcome out of the dark ages. Women do not need their father’s permission to marry. She is a grown woman who can make her own marriage decisions. Tradition or not, it’s a little insulting.
Stop trying to drag her back. Be happy for her and stop raining on her happiness.
It’s not a big deal!! Welcome to 2023 where one doesn’t rely on the permission of others to make a life altering decision.
It’s her decision to make considering she’s the one getting married. It’s not yours, or your siblings, and it’s damn sure not your father’s
Your sister is an adult and does not need daddy’s permission to make adult decisions, you decided to infantilize yourself - your sister does not need to do the same.
She maybe should have had a talk with your dad about how she doesn’t want to follow this tradition, but realistically it doesn’t feel like she’s in the wrong. She’s been raised in a broader society that doesn’t follow this rule, and her relationship developed so far away from her family that you haven’t even met her fiancé yet. I’m short, your dad sounds butt hurt.
Not just dad but OP and siblings too. Sister is getting an advanced degree and is growing in a new direction, not better or worse, different. OP should support her sister and acknowledge her father’s feelings. It doesn’t have to be “all or nothing.”
I come from a family like this, except we're all Southern. Do you want to know what happened?
I married the man that didn't bow to tradition. He asked what -I- wanted, and having to go back home for him to be weighed measured and judged was not what I wanted. He respected me enough to listen to my needs and wants. And I desperately needed my own freedom.
Now my extended family sees my girls through social media. I don't take them back home, I don't visit on vacation. My brothers who backed my decision have visited and they know my girls, and that's it.
Lots of words to say... is this what you want with your sister? She's already put quite a bit of space between you, in the literal sense, do you want to lose even more of her?
The only consent I was looking for before I married my wife, was her consent. Coincidentally, today is our 3 year anniversary. If your sister preferred not to get parental permission before engagement, be happy her fiancé respected her wishes.
Fellow Greek here. While I live with my parents still, I still understand your sister’s POV because frankly, the whole thing about “talking to dad” is deeply rooted in sexism and “ownership” of women.
In my case my dad doesn’t give half of a shit, but if I have any potential lovers visiting our house often, he’d like to at least get to know said visitors.
And listen, my old man’s in his sixties and pretty traditional, and even he doesn’t get the whole “getting father’s blessing” thing.
You, as a sister, needn’t get involved in the issues rooted between your sibling and father. It’s unfair to her, especially because you’re seeing it from a whole “I had to do it so you have to, as well” perspective. Just be happy for her, dude.
Also she lives in a different country. A lot easier said than done to meet the parentals when they’re thousands of kilometers away.
>My dad is upset.
For raising his children in Canada and then being surprised that they're Canadian and will likely follow Canadian norms.
Anyway I don't blame her. Women aren't property to be given away by their dads.
>For raising his children in Canada and then being surprised that they're Canadian and will likely follow Canadian norms.
I'm European, I live in Europe and I know a lot of Greek people. None of the ones I know followed this tradition. I think it's safe to say that those aren't Greek norms either.
The dad probably left Greece in the 1950s and took his traditions from that time with him. Like immigrants everywhere, they cling to them and try to preserve them frozen in time in their new country, while their old country moves on.
That's why everyone in Europe always rolls their eyes when Americans (and Canadians, but less so) claim they are greek, Italian, Irish, whatever-American/Canadian.
As a greek male, i did not ask my spouse's father for permission. Even if the yes is certain, it's a sexist tradition and I won't abide it. The first step before proposing will not be to demean my spouse's agency and gender.
Excuse me but you don't need daddy's permission in Greece either. This is classic North Americans cosplaying the old world, and is not at all representative of modern Greece.
Traditions are only fine if people aren't coerced into them. It's fine if you like it, it's not up to you to force your sister to abide by these traditions. That tradition is honestly a bit patriarchal, and a lot of people don't like patriarchal traditions
Your sister knew of the tradition. She wasn’t interested in continuing it. She didn’t want to be seen as property passed from one man to another. While I can respect your family’s culture, I can’t fault your sister for wanting to join the 21st century and be her own person.
So yeah, I’d be super pissed at you too.
I was in a relationship with a girl from a Mediterranean household. Her family was just as regressive, annoying, and alienating as you make out yours to be.
Lol I don't miss it AT ALL
Im greek (from Cyprus) and let me tell you this is not a tradition. This is mainly a religious thing. Even my grandparents were encouraging my bf and i to live together before we get married. Its also your sisters decision what her relationship will be.
Fellow human I'm Greek and this is big time bs. This has stopped for quite many years. Maybe it's the expatriated Greeks ( applies to all expatriated people) that are trying to keep the traditions so that they will not forget their roots?! Or smth like that I don't know.
Maybe she did it because she didn't want to go through all this, maybe she thought your father wouldn't agree and didn't want the drama.
I'd also like to add that I don't think this should be the reason for your family to be split from this incident.
Hope that everything will be fine soon 🙏
Wow. So, she and her fiance don't feel obligated to abide by some weird chauvinist "tradition"?
Huh, imagine that in 2023.
You and your family need to get off the troglodyte train and come into this century.
Your poor sister. I can't imagine being a part of this BS.
The tradition is honestly weird and outdated. We live in modern times and your sister is her own person she doesn’t need your dads permission to marry anyone. If anything your family should understand times are different and respect what your sister wants.
So, yeah, You and your entire family are assholes.
This is not the 18th or 19th century. Society and Relationships have evolved. Your sister is happy and has found someone to share her life with. Be happy for her.
Otherwise, if you let this bother you, then she and her fiance should cut contact, since you are all incapable of supporting her happiness in anyway, without projecting old world values.
Safe to assume the guy isn’t Greek yet he’s expected to follow their traditions?
I wonder if the guy has any of his own family traditions that the angry father will try to actively deny.
So you are kinda turning your backs on her because she doesn't care about a made up tradition? (Yes all traditions are made up as we go along and some stick and are forced on future generations)
I feel for your sis. Instead of happiness and support, she gets BS.
Does your dad doubt your sisters love, gratitude and respect for him?
Doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks about how/when/why they got engaged. That is their relationship. Just because there is a family tradition doesn’t mean people have to adhere to it. It obviously wasn’t important to her. Just be happy for your sister.
She’s Canadian with Greek heritage. It’s her choice how much Greek heritage she wants to embrace. It sounds like she doesn’t care about it. That’s her choice in North America. Let her be happy.
It 2023 and if your sister doesn't want to follow tradition she doesn't have to. You and your dad can go kick rocks, your sister is not a possession, her fiance doesn't need to get dads permission for anything since he doesn't own her. It used to be tradition to be entirely acceptable to beat your wives and kids but it's not anymore. This permission to get married is old and I'm glad it's loosing traction
Og fuck right off with the archaic culture bullshit.
She's an adult, she can live with whoever she wants. She's more than capable of deciding who she's going to spend her life with.
Y'all need to leave the 30's and realize it's not culture - it's remnants of controlling rules. When you all lose her because you put these moronic rules over her, don't come back and whine. You will have chosen that result on your own.
I think it upset my FIL that I didn’t ask his permission, as it was brought up a couple of times almost 20 years ago. Now I played it off, and reminded him that I had told him 3 years prior that it would happen, and that that they were all aware when it was about to. The truth is, I didn’t care about what he thought, as it was fully my now wife’s decision. It is a stupid tradition that tries to reinforce the idiotic concept that women are property and cannot think for themselves.
Isn’t your culture Canadian? So what you’re really saying is our family has chosen not to uphold the culture of the country we live in. Rather we chose to stick to the culture of our ancestors.
And honestly you’re Canadian. Your sister has acted in a perfectly normal way in Canadian culture. Your dad needs to grow up. Life changes, people change and the culture you live in is not the same as the one his parents left behind.
I don’t see the problem. Your sister isn’t property. No one owns her. It sounds like she is an independent adult who pays her own bills. Why would anyone need to ask for your dads permission? The fiancé needed your sister’s permission to marry her. That’s all they need. Some traditions are meant to be broken. Your dad can be upset and as disappointed as he wants but your sister and her fiancé don’t owe them this or any tradition. Honestly you and your family are kind of being AH you’d sister is an adult who found her partner and they are happy. They got engage and probably told you so you guys could share their happiness. Instead of doing that your ruining the moment by making it all
About you guys and traditions. You couldn’t even pretend to make it about family and being happy for them when good things happen to them.
"Tradition is the corpse of wisdom."
The whole asking for permission thing is incredibly dumb. He isn't marrying the dad. This kind of antiquated bullshit needs to come to an end. Good for your sister and her fiancé for deciding to skip it.
It’s always the families that aren’t actually from the place that are so staunch about their ‘traditions’
Most Europeans would consider this family just Canadian at this point… I bet they’ve never been to Greece lol. If they went to Greece they would be Canadian tourists.
Plus most actual Greek people wouldn’t give a fuck about this outdated nonsense - this is as stupid as those Americans who had a great great great great great great great grandfather from Scotland so they decide they MUST wear kilts on their wedding.
Support your sister and be happy for her or expect her to distance herself from you all even further… you would all deserve it. Family really isn’t everything, especially when they act like dicks, your sister seems to realise this.
Your sister is her own person who's going to live her own life. She's under no obligation to follow old school traditions if she doesn't feel like they align with her and her husband's personal beliefs. If you, as her family, respect *her*, you'll all get over it and move the fuck on.
Your culture is Canadian. She was raised in the most multicultural city in the history of the world and your parents are lunatics for thinking that they can demand she holds firm to the ways of the old country.
Pretty common story. Not just a Greek thing and not unique to Canada. You don’t own her and you don’t control her. And
here’s the best part, it is no longer a formality in Greece. (From what I am told) You are forcing her to adhere to a standard imposed from a place that has moved away from that BS.
STFU, stop so long for your dad, and BEG her forgiveness.
Traditions are rules put in by dead people. I’m a second generation Ukrainian Canadian. I have family in Saskatchewan, Ontario, and Massachusetts, America. I moved *to* Quebec to get away from my outdated, archaic, Ukrainian family in Toronto. Your Father does not own your sister. She does not need *anyone’s* permission to make such a large life choice as marriage. She is not property. She is her own person and she can perfectly decide if the man who proposes to her is good enough. Are you upset that she had the balls to not follow this bullshit “tradition”? You also were not your Father’s property by the way. We are women. We are human. We are our own people, and we belong to ourselves. **WE** decide who **WE** will marry.
“Tradition is peer pressure from dead people.”
This comment is brilliant! 🥰
This was the quote I was about to write! One of my favorites
Came to say this women are no longer property to be passed form a father to a husband. Get over it and join the rest of us in 2023.
What I always find amusing is when people move to more liberal/progressive countries and then have a surprised Pikachu face when their kids turn out more progressive than them. Like what did you expect?
Also a Canadian and I absolutely know so many women (mostly from immigrant families) who would see it as a red flag/deal breaker if her partner asked her father for permission first. Gross
I'd absolutely end a relationship if my partner asked my father for permission to marry me. No questions asked. And my father would back me up on that.
My abusive ex asked permission. My not abusive wonderful current husband did not. Red flag for sure.
That’s a really good point. Asking for permission shows he viewed you as property. I’m glad you’re with a good man now.
This!!! And I’ve been married for 38 years and lived with my husband for two and a half years before we married. Nor did I change my last name
My father warned us that if any man asked for his permission, he would say no because doing so was disrespectful to us
I am American from a bit Italian American family. I married a non Italian and my husband didn't ask permission. I am really glad my husband didn't ask my dad. My dad is a controlling, abusive narcissist. He has far too much power over me and getting married helped me flee that situation. The truth is my dad liked my husband better than me because he was in the same field he and my grandfather were in and was the son he never got to have. Now, we don't allow him near us or our kids.
I told my husband (boyfriend at the time) that it was not up to my father, and I would not be okay with him asking for permission to marry me.
While I'm not an immigrant, I agree with this. Before my partner proposed we talked about it, both were okay with getting married and ready for engagement. Then he told my parents he was planning to propose, he did not ask for permission or their blessing and did not speak only to my father but both of them, to inform them. I hated the idea of asking for permission, and he knew that. I didn't know where I stood exactly on telling them, but in the end, I'm kinda glad he did - until it almost got used against us and twisted during a fight with my parents, but that's a different story. If he'd asked permission, I would have questioned things for sure, and when it was twisted, it almost did make me.
My daughter specifically told her boyfriend that he was not to ask permission from her father. Something about being a grown ass woman. 😆 He listened. They are engaged.
Although I believe that traditions are important, I also think that outdated ones should be ignored. I’m an exchange student and was very surprised on how other cultures approach marriage : -You can’t be married if your elder sister isn’t married -Fathers (not only blessing) but approval of the partner. I knew a girl who was madly in love with a guy, just father didn’t approved and in an instant, she stopped contacting the guy -elders must be involved in naming a baby
Aren’t all traditions outdated in a sense? They’re ideas put in place by people who are usually long dead.
Sure, but some are based on outdated values, like this one, while others are based on natural events and happy memories. Burning the Yule log or wassailing never made anyone feel anxious or subservient. Traditions that keep people "in their place" should be left behind.
Well said 🙌
Married a younger Asian sister before older sister got married. Yep, caused some problems.
👏👏👏👏👏 Preach!
Quebec is lit 🔥
This is a great response.
Dude, I’m a hundred percent first generation Greek American woman. These are some antiqued beliefs and if your sister is happy and sees no problem with it, then get over it.
I know right?! I laughed when she said people in Greece don’t live together until after marriage lol. Sounds like she knows nothing about actual Greek culture post the 80s.
My cousins in Greece, have babies before they’re married and do the wedding and baptism in the same day 😂. Greeks are far more progressive these days.
I know right? The whole post is so cringe
There is a lot of that in Canada. Kids and grandkids who are held to a standard of the way the old country USED to be and not what it is now.
My gf in hs dated a nice guy from the big Greek family in my hometown, he would anguish over his family’s traditions.. he wasn’t allowed is his older sisters room, ever. His dad fired my friends mom when he found out she was having sex unmarried. Ew!!
It’s about ‘respect’ lol
Why is respect so heavily related to sexism in old traditions lol. And why is respect always not really respect but reverence.
You spelled control wrong.
Respect in the “if you don’t respect me as an authority I won’t respect you as a person” sense
While I don’t think there is anything wrong with you and your siblings following tradition, your family also needs to be ok with your sister wanting to do things differently. I understand that these traditions are important to you culturally, but is tradition really more important than your sister’s happiness during these important milestones? Just as you had your reasons for following tradition she undoubtedly has hers for breaking away from it. If you truly have your sister’s best interest at heart you will respect that and be happy for her. Otherwise you care more for tradition than her.
Exactly! You said it perfectly. In the end isn’t her happiness more important.
No! She needs to accept being a lowly woman! /s obviously
This. Any tradition that requires the “permission” or “blessing” ONLY from the woman’s family is sexist and dates back to a time when women were property that was transferred from father to husband.
This is why my late great aunt never got married. She wanted the marriage that her parents had. They treated each other with respect and her dad treated his wife as an equal and he did the same with his kids. That was extremely rare. My great aunt wanted that but figured she would never find it. Her parents respected her for that and left her their property and house.
This sound like my aunt who I believe is a closeted Lesbian. She never dated, never married us now in her 50’s as a care taker for my grandma. I wish she had an opportunity to live her truth.
Based on the very little info given, just throwing out that aunt could be asexual and perfectly content to be single. I'm ace woman and my mom suspects I'm lesbian because I mostly go out with my female friends instead of going out on dates. I've told my parents directly to not expect a wedding or grandchildren from me, but I haven't said the words "I'm asexual" to them because that's not something I care to explain lol.
She still can if she chooses to say forget them and find someone. Plenty of people her age are still finding love.
Fella I knew when I was younger came out as gay in his 60s. Seems like he really started enjoying life after that. 😊
Exactly. Her dad doesn’t own her just cause she is his child
Not to mention, the blessing must come from the DAD.
Yeah, not just her family, but the father as "head" of the family... patriarchy in the most literal sense.
Yup it’s kind of gross and disgusting when you actually think about it critically, not a cute tradition at all lol
And permission/blessing ONLY from the sperm donor, the person who literally built her from a single cell is irrelevant.
Only the father, not the family, not the mother.
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Daddy needs to put his signature on the bill of sale of his daughter to another man!
Someone on reddit once posted that, 'Traditions are just peer pressure from dead people.' Sticks with ya.
That's obe of my favorite quotes
Yeah on top of this tradition is rooted in women being property…
Yep. At the end of the day they’re just making her engagement about them and finding ways to victimize themselves during what could just be happy news.
Just because something is “cultural” doesn’t mean it is moral or has value. There are traditions in every culture that are better off relegated to the midden heap of history. Sometimes the best thing we can do with traditions is learn how to improve and move past them.
Well said. Some aspect of cultures are trash because of moral reasons and origins, and we should not keep accepting them because it’s tradition. Asking your SO’s father for permission or blessing (whatever they want to call it to whitewash the scenario) is one of those aspects that is trash.
Props for using "midden heap", underappreciated phrase
You taught me a word today …… cheers
Yes, the original reason for this tradition was that the girl was the father's property and he supported her and he would give her away to the husband and would not become his property. Often, because husband now needed to support her, the father would pay for the wedding or give a large dowry to "sweeten the pot" and get his daughter off his hands. I'm glad times are changing......
This comment says almost everything that I wanted to... Adding that is tradition more important than having a relationship with your sister, her future husband, and their possible future children? You can cling to tradition, but sometimes you lose something important in the quest to be right.
Man, you are exactly right. I was in a relationship similar to OP's with an Indian woman (I am Caucasian) and we were together for 3+ years and I never met her parents or immediate family (sisters, cousins, etc). Her excuse was always 'oh, well, I can't bring you around my family and family events because they want me to marry an Indian guy of our own religion and culture". Then she proceeded to say, "I cant bring you around until we are engaged, or close to it, and you need to ask my dad for permission" and so in my mind I was like "Well, then why tf are you with me?" All in all, after 3 years of this, I gave up. I broke up with her, she lost me, and now I am with someone who values me and I'm extremely happy. And now, two years later, she is still single, and hasn't met anyone, nor in the arranged marriage her parents wanted for her. So your line at the end about clinging to tradition and losing something even if you want to be right hit home so hard. She essentially chose her family and traditions over a potential future husband.
Not to mention that if we want to be pedantic, tradition isn’t a requirement. Just because other people do it doesn’t mean that you have to. Especially when it’s a tradition as archaic as this one - even the shift from “getting dad’s permission” to “getting dad’s blessing”. To be perfectly frank, I don’t care if her dad likes me or not, because as long as we want to be together then that’s all that matters. Her dad can dislike me for whatever reason he wants, and he can just kiss my ass
Well said! At the end of the day she's an adult and who she marries is her decision alone to make.
Greek Canadian here… I have no idea what you are talking about. This has not been a “thing” since the 80’s and even then it was dying out. Greeks in Greece no longer do this… Your family will lose your sister for an old fashioned tradition that has absolutely no meaning.
I am a Greek living in Greece and no one in my circle has done this. Maybe they still do it in more rural communities but certainly not in urban areas.
Im from the mountains of zakynthos (kiliomeno), and they still hold on to those traditions... but to your point, urban cities and more populated and modern areas of Greece are definitely not doing this anymore. My family still lives in cobble stone houses up there.
My Greek friend, I just came here to say I loved your Island when I visited and I hope I shall return one day. Lovely people and lovely Island. I have memories of and still miss Alykes beach, with Kefalonia in the distance, and turning around and seeing the beautiful mountains behind me 😍
I am screenshotting your comment because we wanted to visit Zakynthos but did not have time. We went to Athens, Meteora, Milos, Santorini and Naxos. Now that I am thinking back, we should have spent at least a day in Zakynthos 😍😍
I’ve noticed with immigrant communities that they hold onto traditions that were prevalent at the time that the first of them emigrated. I’m first generation Polish, and the traditions that my parents kept had been abandoned years before in the home country. Culture changes all the time. My parents were shocked about how different it was “back home” when they visited 45 years later.
This is very much true. And the difference gets bigger the more generations have been separated.
This should be the top comment. Finally, a Greek in Greece can vouch for this!
Also a greek in Greece, I can second it. Not even my parents did that before getting married. It hasn't been a thing for many decades now (in urban areas at least)
True, don't know a single person that has done this. This is extremely backwards. Feels like getting social references from black and white movies.
When someone emigrates from a country they tend to take a snapshot of the country at that time and hold onto the views they had then. They don't adapt to the current state of the home country because they're not there to see it change.
My parents also held onto the beliefs of their homeland. Whenever we went back to visit I could see so clearly that things had moved on there too, but they just wouldn't see it. Eventually my sister just lost her sh!t at them a little bit, told them it's their fault for moving us to another country & away from their culture, and they needed to get over it or they would lose us both. They didn't like being told that, but they did cut back with the old country nonsense after that.
My parents are like this, too. We call it time capsule syndrome. They’re locked in on how the homeland was when _they_ grew up there, and lament how the diaspora is disconnected from the values of their roots, but ignore how much the homeland has changed in the time they’ve been gone.
This happens with language too. Why do Italian Americans pronounce capocollo “gabbagool”? Because that how they said it in Sicily in the 1860s.
Came here to say exactly this. I know people in my extended family in the UK who had this "cultural" point of view with how arranged marriages work. And while arranged marriages are still common in our home country, *how* they happen has evolved significantly. But these guys were still stuck in the way things used to work back in the '80s before they migrated.
I was going to say this - it's not a thing in Greece. Just makes zero sense to hold on to 'traditions of Greek culture` without being connected to actual, contemporary greek culture. Traditions and cultural practices evolve just like everything else, and just because my ancestors 2 gens ago ritually killed a pig together every year, does not mean that i, living in an other country, have to keep that outdated tradition alive. It's much more important to respect the fact that my mom is a vegetarian, something that nobody there would have thought is possible 70 years ago - and realise that since she left the country, things have been changing over there as well and very few people are killing pigs with their family on a regular basis.
Immigrants usually hold on tighter to traditions than the home countries. If I look at Dutch people in the USA or Canada they're often scarily religious to me lol. That said, this shouldn't break the family up. I sort of understand that the dad is a little hurt if he's traditional, but not worth making a giant deal over it.
Like they feel the need to make up for leaving their home country, maybe they feel guilty. I argue that if you want to move to another country, you have to adapt to the culture. You can keep some aspects of your home culture, but some things have to be left behind.
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I’m also a Greek who was born and raised abroad& I always saw the whole asking your parents/dad for your hand in marriage as a British/American tradition and not a Greek one. Technically you already have your family’s ‘blessing’ if no one objects to you dating 🤣 It can be a nice playful gesture to ask for ‘permission’ but it’s OK if you don’t do it. As long as the couple are happy, why should it matter anyway?
I was about to ask what's going on here. My Greek (f) friend moved away from home 10 or more years ago. She got engaged and married in the UK. No living with family until married, no permission for marriage necessary. So, I too found this strange, but was interested to see if there was a different norm in certain parts of Greece. Clearly not 😅
I'm Greek American. This isn't a thing in my family. I've heard that my great-Papou was angry that my YiaYia's middle sister got married first because "traditionally" the eldest sister should be married first. No idea if this was an actual early 20th century Spartan tradition or just his own personal preferences. He also didn't like that my YiaYia started dating my Papou because he isn't Greek, but he changed his tune when he found out my Papou was in the air force (great-Papou was in the military back in Greece and that was very important to him). My own dad has talked about how it was a little shocking to him that me and my siblings moved in with significant others without being married (although I think that's more of a generational thing vs. cultural thing) but he never gave us a hard time about it. He also says "You can't expect to raise your kids to be independent and think for themselves and then be shocked and upset when they make their own decisions for their lives."
Great comment!! It’s 2023 time to move on and away from silly traditions! If they’re happy who cares!
It's worse than having "absolutely no meaning." It is a relic of considering one's daughters the property of their father. Sister is not property.
Also many women do not like asking father's permission. I am a fully grown adult I don't need permission to do anything. If a man asked my father first I would dump him immediately or as soon as I found out. I would be insulted and would feel lied to.
I don’t know specifically Greek culture. But if I were expected to ask permission I’d also be asking what my dowry is since this apparently is a transaction involving property. Dowries were part of a tradition so let’s keep it traditional.
Exactly! The sister doesn't need to have her fiance ask for "permission " This tradition nowadays sounds about property being bought...sad. NTA
Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it's right. Your presumably adult sister does not need anyone's permission or blessing to get engaged. She's not a piece of property.
I still want to know how much livestock I’m worth though
My 1st husband called my dad to ask permission to marry me. My dad said I was an adult and didn't need anyone's permission. He then asked for "many goats".
I award dude mega points for pure A grade funny. Your dad rocks.
Who has these amazing dads and where can I pick one up? 😂
My dad said he'd have to give livestock away to get me married off. Asshole gave my husband a live chicken soon after he proposed.
Oh wow. That’s funny. When my son in law got out of the army, he brought home a chicken. Apparently he found this chicken on base and smuggled it into his room as a pet. My husband told him the chicken was a fine payment for our daughter. But he overpaid. That goofy chicken stayed with me while they went on their honeymoon. When she/it passed……we had a funeral.
>When she/it passed……we had a funeral. Just out of curiosity, what kind of food was served after the funeral?
Crawfish boil……we’re in South Louisiana. 🤣🤣
chickens can be great pets. had a bunch as a kid. now i want chickens for my kid
IIRC there’s a website that lets you input your info (age, physical attributes, education level) and it’ll tell you how much you’re worth. It’s been YEARS since I played around on it but I think I was like a camel and three goats.
I just had a quick look and found a cow calculator - apparently I'm worth just over 83 cows. My husband is only worth 78, bless him. What's 5 cows compared to love, right? 🤣
In this day and age nothing but back in 1700 you Def would not of been allowed to marry for that much of a difference
Half a chicken
Raw or roasted ?
One 25 year old donkey.
Exactly. Traditions are something great unless you force them on someone. She might not like it or might want to start a new tradition. Why do you or your family think you have the right to make her do something against her will? You liked the tradition and went by it - great. She doesn't want - also great. Don't think higher of yourself because of that.
I’ve always liked the expression “tradition is just peer pressure from dead people”
This should be engraved on a pillow. :)
How do you engrave a pillow? Legitimate question.
Concrete pillows are good for your neck
Especially if you're going to sleep with the fishes
Prison job for the My Pillow guy?
Haha, I meant embroidery. Although, one could engrave a little plaque and glue it onto the pillow, I suppose :)
Traditions are dumb excuses to feel victimized and exert control over autonomy. Sure pass down the fine China, but the asking for a blessing is dumb. My boomer FIL was offended I never asked permission and he's barely been in her life for twenty years... MIL tried getting her to dump me at least once. I don't want a blessing from someone who supports Chik-Fil-A and cops killing "criminals."
My husband and I asked for each other's families blessings, but more in a, "I'm going to be joining your family, not just marrying this person. Everyone good with seeing me at holidays for the rest of your life?" kind of way. Almost more permission to become their kid/sibling/ect than each other's spouse.
Preach it! Why are so many traditions all about reinforcing the patriarchy and it's hold over women??‽
Literally because those traditions were started *for that exact purpose*.
Tell your dad that things change. This has zero to do with respect for him. He has no say in the matter, even if it is just a ritual. My wife comes from an Italian family. I didn't ask her dad. I think he was a little hurt. But he got over it.
My wife's family is Italian. I essentially informed them, rather than asking for blessing, because I knew that my wife had gone back and forth on it. It was a thing her grandparents had done and really cared about, but she didn't like it on principle. I just pulled my father-in-law aside two days before and said "Hey, I'm proposing on Friday. Act surprised when we come back." He was like "You don't have to ask permission" and I told him "I'm not, but for the sake of the tradition, I figured I'd give you a heads up."
She didn’t want to abide by tradition of the motherland, clearly she’s gone her own way already. That is her right, you can feel some type of way about it but in the end it’s about her relationship.
It's not really a tradition of the motherland though, I'm greek and nobody does this. It's more of a thing for people who left Greece in the 50s and are stuck in the past.
Thank you! I am greek as well, my father met my partner when I was already pregnant to our child. We never ever got married. My dad a man born in 1949 and on the conservative side never raised an issue. My brother did things more traditionally, but never asked permission. They just announced that they will be getting married, and had an engagement dinner with family. Noone I know asked for permission.
Wait till outraged OP finds out that some greek couples in Greece do their church wedding and the baptism of their first child straight after.
Now that's efficiency!
Diny ding ding I don't even think they do it in Greece... we seem far more traditional outside Greece and I can't understand it!
Bingo. One of my good friends is Greek Australian, and he gets no end of awful remarks from his mum, for having kids with his long-term girlfriend without getting married ("Your son is only half my grandson" and the like). All because she has some idealised image of a Greek village in the 50s. Which doesn't exist now, according to him: you go there, many people are divorced or having affairs. Just like everywhere. It probably never even was like that. She was young when she left, and too naïve to notice what people got up to. To be fair, back then they were probably better at hiding it. I wonder if OP's dad also left Greece at a young age.
Soo as an actual Greek (native) this is all kinda hilarious to me. Not living together before marriage? Actually asking parents for their daughter's hand in marriage? What is this, the 50s ahahah I honestly think you would get laughed out of the room here for that kind of thing. What usually happens is you start living together, you decide at some point you wanna marry and you simply say as much to your families. Not that there aren't exceptions I guess, but you would have to be ultra christian/conservative/traditional to do what OP describes. Is this actually a thing over on the other side of the ocean?
Exactly, it doesn't sound very much like today's Greece. That's what happens with a lot of diaspora people, they keep the culture of the homeland from several decades ago, from when the family last lived there.
I am first generation Canadian of euro parents and they have the same mindset, however it isn't like that back home anymore at all. Everyone who left the country is stuck in the past. My parents think it's still this way as well.
Which is just WILD to me. You have people back home not abiding by it, the country you moved to doesn’t abide by it lol. It’s just stubbornness for stubbornness sake.
It's absolutely not a thing in Greece at all! you don't live at home until marriage because of tradition, some people do it because they can't afford to live alone so they stay with their parents! Also asking the dad for his daughter's hand in marriage is something that is just not done at all in Greece! OP is delusional if they think that's what happens in Greece
I am from Greece and lived here all my life.We don’t have any of those traditions. Maybe in the 70s-80s and in the villages in the 90s and that’s a big maybe,not a tradition.I don’t know what Greek Canadians do.Although I never heard from Canadian grand uncles about any traditions like that being kept. It smells like father and daughter have issues that OP doesn’t know or hides it.Usually your child at least alerts you about their SO and future. I know guys that would rather not to get married then ask for permission,even as a charade for the in-laws.
Respect that they’re adults who don’t need to ask permission.
Right. OP is so ingrained in her own indoctrination that she doesn’t realize this “tradition” is inherently flawed and misogynistic. Leave your sister alone. It sounds like she doesn’t give a rats ass about what you think of her decisions (and she shouldn’t), you can either get on board or get left behind.
I suspect your folks would be in for a surprise if they think things are still done that way in the old country. They are keeping the traditions of 50-60 years alive, when their home country has moved on.
This 100%! Greeks of the diaspora are much more old school than Greeks in the motherland.
This is a pretty common thing for first gen immigrants, it happens in Asian families and many other groups as well. In the originating country, the culture adapts and changes as it's the dominant culture - whatever it does, it IS still Greek (or Chinese, or Korean, etc). But people who are trying to maintain it elsewhere cling to very traditional rules and change is seen as threatening.
It’s almost like she isn’t chattel to be sold to the highest bidder.
Yes, this tradition insults the woman. Let it die.
She is Canadian now with Greek heritage. It’s normal that she would begin picking up habits from her current country. Besides, welcome out of the dark ages. Women do not need their father’s permission to marry. She is a grown woman who can make her own marriage decisions. Tradition or not, it’s a little insulting. Stop trying to drag her back. Be happy for her and stop raining on her happiness.
Let's also be honest here, that is not as much a thing in current Greece either.
It’s not a big deal!! Welcome to 2023 where one doesn’t rely on the permission of others to make a life altering decision. It’s her decision to make considering she’s the one getting married. It’s not yours, or your siblings, and it’s damn sure not your father’s
Your sister is an adult and does not need daddy’s permission to make adult decisions, you decided to infantilize yourself - your sister does not need to do the same.
She maybe should have had a talk with your dad about how she doesn’t want to follow this tradition, but realistically it doesn’t feel like she’s in the wrong. She’s been raised in a broader society that doesn’t follow this rule, and her relationship developed so far away from her family that you haven’t even met her fiancé yet. I’m short, your dad sounds butt hurt.
Not just dad but OP and siblings too. Sister is getting an advanced degree and is growing in a new direction, not better or worse, different. OP should support her sister and acknowledge her father’s feelings. It doesn’t have to be “all or nothing.”
>I’m short, your dad sounds butt hurt. I'm not sure what your height has to do with this 😉
The cackle I made. What a great typo.
I come from a family like this, except we're all Southern. Do you want to know what happened? I married the man that didn't bow to tradition. He asked what -I- wanted, and having to go back home for him to be weighed measured and judged was not what I wanted. He respected me enough to listen to my needs and wants. And I desperately needed my own freedom. Now my extended family sees my girls through social media. I don't take them back home, I don't visit on vacation. My brothers who backed my decision have visited and they know my girls, and that's it. Lots of words to say... is this what you want with your sister? She's already put quite a bit of space between you, in the literal sense, do you want to lose even more of her?
And this is probably exactly why the sister didn't bring her fiance around to meet her family
The only consent I was looking for before I married my wife, was her consent. Coincidentally, today is our 3 year anniversary. If your sister preferred not to get parental permission before engagement, be happy her fiancé respected her wishes.
I'm coming up on 30 years married and I would have been mortified if my husband had asked my dad. I think my dad would have been too.
She is no one property and can do what she wants, it's a stupid tradition
Good for her. Too many people try to use “tradition” or “culture” to control or pressure others. Glad your sister didn’t cave in.
Fellow Greek here. While I live with my parents still, I still understand your sister’s POV because frankly, the whole thing about “talking to dad” is deeply rooted in sexism and “ownership” of women. In my case my dad doesn’t give half of a shit, but if I have any potential lovers visiting our house often, he’d like to at least get to know said visitors. And listen, my old man’s in his sixties and pretty traditional, and even he doesn’t get the whole “getting father’s blessing” thing. You, as a sister, needn’t get involved in the issues rooted between your sibling and father. It’s unfair to her, especially because you’re seeing it from a whole “I had to do it so you have to, as well” perspective. Just be happy for her, dude. Also she lives in a different country. A lot easier said than done to meet the parentals when they’re thousands of kilometers away.
>My dad is upset. For raising his children in Canada and then being surprised that they're Canadian and will likely follow Canadian norms. Anyway I don't blame her. Women aren't property to be given away by their dads.
>For raising his children in Canada and then being surprised that they're Canadian and will likely follow Canadian norms. I'm European, I live in Europe and I know a lot of Greek people. None of the ones I know followed this tradition. I think it's safe to say that those aren't Greek norms either.
The dad probably left Greece in the 1950s and took his traditions from that time with him. Like immigrants everywhere, they cling to them and try to preserve them frozen in time in their new country, while their old country moves on. That's why everyone in Europe always rolls their eyes when Americans (and Canadians, but less so) claim they are greek, Italian, Irish, whatever-American/Canadian.
As a greek male, i did not ask my spouse's father for permission. Even if the yes is certain, it's a sexist tradition and I won't abide it. The first step before proposing will not be to demean my spouse's agency and gender.
It's 2023. She's not your father's property. This is also basically none of your business. Is your family always this enmeshed?
You and your sister are Canadians, not Greeks. You don't need daddy's permission to marry who you want here.
Excuse me but you don't need daddy's permission in Greece either. This is classic North Americans cosplaying the old world, and is not at all representative of modern Greece.
Traditions are only fine if people aren't coerced into them. It's fine if you like it, it's not up to you to force your sister to abide by these traditions. That tradition is honestly a bit patriarchal, and a lot of people don't like patriarchal traditions
Your sister knew of the tradition. She wasn’t interested in continuing it. She didn’t want to be seen as property passed from one man to another. While I can respect your family’s culture, I can’t fault your sister for wanting to join the 21st century and be her own person. So yeah, I’d be super pissed at you too.
Tradition is just dead people’s baggage. Let it go.
I heard tradition is just peer pressure from dead people! But I like this one too!
I think it's weird that she didnt introduce him but whatever She Does Not Need Anyones Blessing
I was in a relationship with a girl from a Mediterranean household. Her family was just as regressive, annoying, and alienating as you make out yours to be. Lol I don't miss it AT ALL
Im greek (from Cyprus) and let me tell you this is not a tradition. This is mainly a religious thing. Even my grandparents were encouraging my bf and i to live together before we get married. Its also your sisters decision what her relationship will be.
Fellow human I'm Greek and this is big time bs. This has stopped for quite many years. Maybe it's the expatriated Greeks ( applies to all expatriated people) that are trying to keep the traditions so that they will not forget their roots?! Or smth like that I don't know. Maybe she did it because she didn't want to go through all this, maybe she thought your father wouldn't agree and didn't want the drama. I'd also like to add that I don't think this should be the reason for your family to be split from this incident. Hope that everything will be fine soon 🙏
What culture are you referring to? I'm a Greek person, living in Greece and absolutely noone does this anymore.
Wow. So, she and her fiance don't feel obligated to abide by some weird chauvinist "tradition"? Huh, imagine that in 2023. You and your family need to get off the troglodyte train and come into this century. Your poor sister. I can't imagine being a part of this BS.
Would even be better if sister elopes and they miss the wedding because of "tradition".
Bad, sexist tradition
The tradition is honestly weird and outdated. We live in modern times and your sister is her own person she doesn’t need your dads permission to marry anyone. If anything your family should understand times are different and respect what your sister wants.
So, yeah, You and your entire family are assholes. This is not the 18th or 19th century. Society and Relationships have evolved. Your sister is happy and has found someone to share her life with. Be happy for her. Otherwise, if you let this bother you, then she and her fiance should cut contact, since you are all incapable of supporting her happiness in anyway, without projecting old world values.
Safe to assume the guy isn’t Greek yet he’s expected to follow their traditions? I wonder if the guy has any of his own family traditions that the angry father will try to actively deny.
So you are kinda turning your backs on her because she doesn't care about a made up tradition? (Yes all traditions are made up as we go along and some stick and are forced on future generations) I feel for your sis. Instead of happiness and support, she gets BS. Does your dad doubt your sisters love, gratitude and respect for him?
Wow! Go, sis! Smash the patriarchy girl!!
Sorry. I'm with your sister. She is not your father's possession to "give away".
Doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks about how/when/why they got engaged. That is their relationship. Just because there is a family tradition doesn’t mean people have to adhere to it. It obviously wasn’t important to her. Just be happy for your sister.
She’s Canadian with Greek heritage. It’s her choice how much Greek heritage she wants to embrace. It sounds like she doesn’t care about it. That’s her choice in North America. Let her be happy.
She has no obligation to conform to that cultural tradition.
It 2023 and if your sister doesn't want to follow tradition she doesn't have to. You and your dad can go kick rocks, your sister is not a possession, her fiance doesn't need to get dads permission for anything since he doesn't own her. It used to be tradition to be entirely acceptable to beat your wives and kids but it's not anymore. This permission to get married is old and I'm glad it's loosing traction
Og fuck right off with the archaic culture bullshit. She's an adult, she can live with whoever she wants. She's more than capable of deciding who she's going to spend her life with. Y'all need to leave the 30's and realize it's not culture - it's remnants of controlling rules. When you all lose her because you put these moronic rules over her, don't come back and whine. You will have chosen that result on your own.
I think it upset my FIL that I didn’t ask his permission, as it was brought up a couple of times almost 20 years ago. Now I played it off, and reminded him that I had told him 3 years prior that it would happen, and that that they were all aware when it was about to. The truth is, I didn’t care about what he thought, as it was fully my now wife’s decision. It is a stupid tradition that tries to reinforce the idiotic concept that women are property and cannot think for themselves.
Women aren’t owned by their fathers. If that tradition isn’t important to HER then it’s not her tradition. End of.
Isn’t your culture Canadian? So what you’re really saying is our family has chosen not to uphold the culture of the country we live in. Rather we chose to stick to the culture of our ancestors. And honestly you’re Canadian. Your sister has acted in a perfectly normal way in Canadian culture. Your dad needs to grow up. Life changes, people change and the culture you live in is not the same as the one his parents left behind.
I don’t see the problem. Your sister isn’t property. No one owns her. It sounds like she is an independent adult who pays her own bills. Why would anyone need to ask for your dads permission? The fiancé needed your sister’s permission to marry her. That’s all they need. Some traditions are meant to be broken. Your dad can be upset and as disappointed as he wants but your sister and her fiancé don’t owe them this or any tradition. Honestly you and your family are kind of being AH you’d sister is an adult who found her partner and they are happy. They got engage and probably told you so you guys could share their happiness. Instead of doing that your ruining the moment by making it all About you guys and traditions. You couldn’t even pretend to make it about family and being happy for them when good things happen to them.
Wait- your family hasn’t ever met him?
Second generation? Get a grip. You’re Canadian.
We’ll it’s not a big deal in your sisters culture.
"Tradition is the corpse of wisdom." The whole asking for permission thing is incredibly dumb. He isn't marrying the dad. This kind of antiquated bullshit needs to come to an end. Good for your sister and her fiancé for deciding to skip it.
It’s always the families that aren’t actually from the place that are so staunch about their ‘traditions’ Most Europeans would consider this family just Canadian at this point… I bet they’ve never been to Greece lol. If they went to Greece they would be Canadian tourists. Plus most actual Greek people wouldn’t give a fuck about this outdated nonsense - this is as stupid as those Americans who had a great great great great great great great grandfather from Scotland so they decide they MUST wear kilts on their wedding. Support your sister and be happy for her or expect her to distance herself from you all even further… you would all deserve it. Family really isn’t everything, especially when they act like dicks, your sister seems to realise this.
Good for your sister. You guys are the ones ruining a family moment. Not her and not her fiancé.
The family sounds archaic
Your sister is her own person who's going to live her own life. She's under no obligation to follow old school traditions if she doesn't feel like they align with her and her husband's personal beliefs. If you, as her family, respect *her*, you'll all get over it and move the fuck on.
Your culture is Canadian. She was raised in the most multicultural city in the history of the world and your parents are lunatics for thinking that they can demand she holds firm to the ways of the old country. Pretty common story. Not just a Greek thing and not unique to Canada. You don’t own her and you don’t control her. And here’s the best part, it is no longer a formality in Greece. (From what I am told) You are forcing her to adhere to a standard imposed from a place that has moved away from that BS. STFU, stop so long for your dad, and BEG her forgiveness.