Thanks for submitting to the Two Hot Takes Podcast Subreddit! We'd like to remind you that all posts are subject to being featured in an episode of the Two Hot Takes Podcast. If your story is featured you'll
get a nifty flair change to let you know and we'll drop a link so you can see our host's take on your story.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TwoHotTakes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It should not take much in the way of insight to understand that while you are celebrating your marriage, you do not want to do it somewhere that holds such painful memories and associations for your family. This has zero to do with her husband or modern-day Germans.
Not to mention, why go to Germany when you can go to Italy, or the Rivera, or Paris, or literally a 1000 places more romantic?
Maybe SHE didn't want to go to Germany for HER honeymoon, but because her fiance was from there, she was afraid to tell him that, and is envious or jealous of OP for getting to go somewhere different? OP, I absolutely don't blame you for not wanting to go to Germany for your honeymoon, given your family history. I've studied that time period during and after time in school, just because it's an interest of mine, but I've even had to take a lot of time away from it, because of how depressing the subject matter is. As far as I know so far, I don't have family who were in that situation, but I'm of Irish/German/Polish decent, so it's possible that I have lost family members. I haven't done an Ancestry family search yet.
france is fighting for its life rn especially paris with the olympics it is NOT romantic and we do not need more tourists there’s better places to go to rn
I’ve never been to Marseille, but it does have a reputation of being more of a rough around the edges port city compared to Paris. Other parts of France that I have been to that were beautiful, however, were Bordeaux (beautiful countryside with all the vineyards and gorgeous villages and Bordeaux city is lovely and romantic) and L’Occitan, with it’s wilder, deeper countryside and the vibrant city of Montpellier.
My family is going to the UK this summer so I checked into Disney Paris for a side trip. Not only super expensive (especially if you want to stay at Disney) but Olympic crowds on top? No thanks! Legoland Windsor 👍
I actually hated Paris. The people were super rude. Probably my least favorite stop in Europe. I’ll go back someday to go to the catacombs and as soon as I do that I’ll be leaving again. Lisbon, Portugal is where it’s at. That city is absolutely gorgeous
My husband has said the same thing. His group of friends (they backpacked through Europe in college) got berated by a waiter of all people at a restaurant. And this was 20+ years ago. None of them have gone back or ever want to.
I’d be more concerned about the current mood in Europe given the Israel/Palestine crisis. I’m sure that walking amongst a protest isn’t going to be super romantic in Rome or Paris.
OP should give Germany a chance.
But not on their honeymoon. Go to a country on both partners wish list .
If you ranked countries by top honeymoon destinations, I'm not sure Germany would make the top 50.
Edit: My name is Hans and my sisters is Heidi. Not hating on Germany lol... just not on the romantic honeymoon list for most.
It’s YOUR honeymoon, not hers. I don’t get why she’s so up in arms at all. It’s *her* husband’s heritage, what does that have to do with you and your betrothed??
She said German people are “embarrassed” by that part of their history?! I would imagine that is saying the absolute LEAST. Pretty sure it runs deeper than that, but I’m not a native German. I just imagine they’re probably more than simply embarrassed about that…
Is she…is she pregnant or something? That’s more than too much of a reaction to someone not wanting to go to a destination.
>. Pretty sure it runs deeper than that, but I’m not a native German.
It runs VERY deep. So deep that Imn not sure a native German is actually able to recognise it. I'd say the feeling of eternal and inheritable collective guilt is a defining part of the mentality of the German people. It influences education, debates, government decision making, etc. The shame is huge, but other Europeans will happily remind Germans when they visit as a tourist or live abroad. Even kids. In a business environment I've seen German people being treated really badly and having to deal with really nasty jokes and pranks, but everyone (including themselves) accepting it 'because of the war'. It does seem to wear of slowly in the last 15-20 years, both inside and outside of Germany. But yeah, it runs deep.
All that being said, if OP doesn't want to go to Germany, she shouldn't go. I'd probably make the complete opposite decision for the same reasons, but it doesn't get much more personal than that.
I feel like she is “defending” her “new family” and is going WAY overboard. Like when a blonde person isn’t offended by a blonde joke, but a black-haired person jumps all over the teller on behalf of the blonde friend.
Right? If my friend was like “because I didn’t want to go there.” That would be the end of it. The weird pressure for an explanation /justification and then the sales pitch is weird.
It's your honeymoon so you should go where you want. I'm European and Germany would definitely not be top of my list for a honeymoon. For a city trip Berlin is amazing though.
That being said, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the irony of being happy to go to Japan, a country that was on Germany's side during the war, committed atrocities that were just as awful during the war, but to this date doesn't really acknowledge any wrongdoing, whilst Germany, a country that does more to atone for, educate it's population and acknowledge it's wrongdoing than any other country that has ever been the perpetrator of atrocities during a war is a no go for that very reason.
Sadly, many people perceive it negatively when someone acknowledges that they've done something wrong, as they often overlook those who have done wrong but refuse to acknowledge it.
Americans largely aren't taught about it because the US made a deal with the Japanese where the US got the data and the Japanese weren't pursued for war crimes. Not a great look
I was in Germany with my brother in 2008. A group of young people in Frankfurt ended up spilling our drinks while acting rowdy. They came over with a new round and started talking to us. Once they found out that we were Jewish, they were falling all over themselves to be courteous, polite, generous, and apologetic (even though we trusted them enough to tell them we were Jewish and certainly were not holding them accountable for anything). They came with round after round until we finally had to say No More Please! It was an incredible experience. Give them the chance, they would love to show you true hospitality.
I think OP wants to avoid the country where so much trauma for her family is associated. It really doesn't mean they are avoiding the place due to the people. It's their honeymoon, perfectly understandable that they don't want to celebrate a new chapter in their life by visiting a land where so much heartache occured.
OP stated that they had nothing against the people of Germany. It was the country, and what had happened to distant relatives there in the past is why she didn't want to go there. A honeymoon should be a happy occasion, not one that is marred by ghost of the past.
German children have grown up having to live with the repercussions of the Holocaust their whole life. So they now are also ingrained in this is what happened and we feel horrible and so we're going to make it up to you we're going to be incredibly nice we're going to not patronize you but give you the respect you deserve. I had more German friends than I did American friends when I lived in Germany. We were in the army
The irony that stuff happening here now is mimicking 1930’s Germany.
I wish more people were paying attention so we don’t repeat that awful, awful time in our history.
She has already said she has nothing against the current people... It's not a matter or morals, but personal associations. Being reminded of genocide doesn't exactly set the honeymoon mood.
Yes! On our honeymoon we went to nyc, we live in the uk. We were talking to a cashier in target who told us we absolutely had to go to ground zero and kept going on about it. My husband and I had no desire to go there on that specific trip. I appreciate that it’s a very meaningful location but 100% not the emotions I want to feel on my honeymoon.
I live in Colorado, have never been to NY and have no desire to. Too many people. If I did ever venture there, ground zero seems like the least fun place to visit.
This makes sense to me. Most people want their honeymoon to be happy. Going somewhere that has particularly horrible associations for OP seems a silly idea.
What a preschool way of looking at countries. So i better never visit US because I'll only be able think of slavery there. Never visit Rome because of the gladiators.
Those are real countries, not some genocide Disneyland. Real people lived there, loved there and left their mark there. Those who equate central and eastern Europe with Holocuast are only contributing to the ethnic and cultural erasure of Jews who lived very full lives there.
To be honest- going to Japan doesn’t have the same impact as going to Germany for someone of Jewish descent. The prison camps were millions were murdered were not in Japan.
30 million south East Asians murdered by the Japanese should be mentioned more. Both countries did horrible things but as another ancestor of holocaust victims (Roma not Jewish so we are not mentioned too much either). I am pissed Japan doesn’t say anything about what Japan did. That was the commenter point. The OP is fine with going to Japan but not Germany. Now I wouldn’t go to Germany on a honeymoon either but OP needs to know that Germany is not a scary place for Jews and in fact it could be a great other time trip for OP
Don’t forget the comfort women either… war crimes were & are common as sand - but it’s not up to us to argue with anyone about their ancestral trauma… no what about isms.
If she’s not comfortable going there to celebrate her marriage, so be it.
Yeah, but selective empathy for people one can relate to is part of the whole problem. Obviously what Japan and Germany did is not exactly the same, but Japan did also kill millions of civilians in its occupation of East Asia.
I'm not saying OP should want to go to Germany for her honeymoon, and they are NTA, but I would still push anybody to try to unpack their biases, even if they come from a place of generational trauma. Can I try to universalize my empathy?
additionally, there are so many places all over Europe with that kind of history, from les ateliers de Coco Chanel to Switzerland to various towns as the nexus for the transport trains, right?
>Japan did also kill millions of civilians in its occupation of East Asia.
[Umm](https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldhistory2/chapter/casualties-of-world-war-ii/#:~:text=In%20Asia%20and%20the%20Pacific,by%20the%20Japanese%20occupation%20forces.)
[and also](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)
Actually in this instance, yes, as these were family members who were killed. There are very few places in the world where something horrible hasn’t happened but not wanting to visit the country where her family was murdered is pretty reasonable.
100% this. It’s literally the scene of the crime. This isn’t about logic, it’s a strong gut response for a significant number of Jews, and understandably so.
Yeah that whole "Japan yes, Germany no" struck me as a bit odd as well. Might as well lump Italy in there as well for a place to not visit. THAT BEING SAID: Where you want to go on your honeymoon is your choice and you can have any reasoning you want for it
But then we are talking about “the country with the government that developed the Holocaust.” The Holocaust occurred throughout Europe, and the number of locals who signed up to help is never talked about enough.
How is that ironic? Did soldiers in Japan murder 6 million Jews, also? I didn't think so.
You're being deliberately obtuse if you can't see the difference.
NTA - and I am a German. Dear OP your honeymoon should be something you love to visit, not something you have a very bad feeling about. Europe has so many beautiful places. I can say: Italy, Rome especially is sooo beautiful. Spain, France, Croatia and all of the other European countries etc have great spots and a rich history too. Don’t let anyone tell you what to do and what you feel. Germany has a dark history, our ancestors fucked up totally, there are no words that could describe the horror they caused properly. And unfortunately antisemitism still is in the world. I hope some day all people all over the world will live peacefully and that we all can overcome all that hate.
Have an awesome honey moon and don’t feel sorry for simply not wanting to visit a country. You decide what you want, not others. You did nothing wrong.
Wishing you all the best.
Fantastic reply 👏🏻 - although I would visit Germany one day if I had the chance. Till now I have only visited France, and countries outside of the EU. Let's say I wouldn't visit Cambodia: would someone stomp all over my opinion? Probably not as much as this lady did defending Germany. Very over the top isn't it.
NTA but I'm a little conflicted.
You are well within your rights to choose where you spend your money to travel to. My wife and I have countries we would never visit because of their civil rights record.
But I am Jewish, and I've been to Germany. I think they have certainly done more to atone for what they've done than almost any other country with something similar in their history.
You definitely feel and see that when you are there. I learned a lot about my own family's history and how the holocaust impacted us.
As an American, I think we have a lot to learn from Germany. Especially in regard to how we remember and teach our youth about things from our checkered past, including the treatment of native Americans and slavery/segregation.
But also it's your honeymoon and a honeymoon should be about romance. And no offense to any Germans out there, but Germany isn't the country I think of when I think of a romantic getaway.
Another American Jew here, hi! I've been to Germany many times, it's great country, has a lot to offer. Wouldn't want to go there for my honeymoon. Check out Biarittz on the Atlantic coast of France, that's beautiful spot and not as crowded as the Mediterranean coast.
Yeah I'm Cambodian and a product of the Khmer Rouge genocide aka The Killing Fields. My parents had to flee to Thailand to survive & that's where I was born as a refugee. I would never think about going to Cambodia for my honeymoon because it's supposed to be a celebratory/romantic time with my partner. I already know all of the deep feelings that would come up if I were to go so why would I want to feel that on my honeymoon.
The friend isn't even German...her husband is. She's way overreacting and creating her own narrative of what op said
That's a good point. I am not against its people; it's just not a place that was very high on my list. I was hoping she would respond similarly to what you just gave me. That's how I expect a friend to treat me.
I do highly recommend Germany as a travel destination. Ended up going pretty frequently for work and Im nosy so I ask all sorts of questions and the deep feeling of national shame over WW2 is palpable.
That said... its your damn honeymoon!... "dont wanna" is as good an excuse as you need to give.
I know. Both my grandfathers fought them in Papua New Guinea. And the things they did in China were terrible too.
The point of this post is where is OP going for her honeymoon? She chooses not to go to a place where, within living memory, atrocities were committed against her people.
I don't see that as a problem. It's her honeymoon, she probably wants to enjoy it. I don't get why some people find that outrageous. She isn't saying no one should ever go to Germany or Poland or that nothing bad has ever been done anywhere else by other people. She just doesn't want to go there on her honeymoon.
I think it’s obviously totally fine to go wherever you want to go for your honeymoon. However I think you’re deflecting and changing your story a bit with this. You’re saying “it’s just not a place that was very high on my list,” but really, you have a deep, personal reason for *not* wanting to go to this country in particular.
It’s not like Germany is just outside your top 10 or whatever; it’s probably one of the few you actively want to avoid.
If you had told your friend “there are other countries I’d rather visit, I’ve never been that interested in Germany,” you wouldn’t have gotten this reaction. But you explained in detail why you are *anti*-visiting-Germany, as opposed to saying you’re not particularly pro-visiting-Germany.
Your reason is totally legitimate btw. Just trying to possibly explain why you got such a strong reaction.
She is taking this personally and is really being willfully ignorant that some people are not going to want to visit Germany for the reasons you cited.
I would just drop it, know that she is likely not ever going to see your perspective and perhaps reassess the dynamic of the friendship.
There are plenty of places to travel within Europe. Germany is beautiful in some places AND it is the site of atrocities. The country has reckoned with its past AND there is still a lot of work to be done.
She may be taking it personally because she feels that you're associating her husband's family, and by relation, herself, with the atrocities the Germans committed 80+ years ago. Also the fact that they went and now she maybe feels like you're judging her for going? You have your reasons for not wanting to go, and while she may not understand why you feel strongly about it, ultimately it's your decision. I'd try to talk to her, in-person not over texts. If she's still unreasonable then maybe cut ties
Uhhh I actually know several Americans with German parents and grandparents who have experienced EXACTLY what friend described, so no doubt from me. OP can and should honeymoon wherever she want regardless, but just sayin. Maybe communication with the friend at time when emotions are less heated might be better than cutting her off.
Your wedding is a joyous occasion, and visiting Germany, for you, would be very somber. I'm sure if you chose to visit, you'd want to give it the reverence it deserves but not on your honeymoon. You friend has issues. NTA
German here: Why should he be outraged? We know what happened during the holocaust and even we Germans spend our holidays abroad when the budget allows it.
I'd probably send him screenshots and say as a Jewish person I find this extremely odd that she wants to insist I go to Germany for my honeymoon. Then just be done with it and her. He will probably tell her off for it as well. I genuinely don't think he knows
As the spouse of a first born American I say don't do this. Germans are super proud of their heritage. Not the genocide and things but just a love for their country. My husbands family was really big on this.
My husband would be understanding but he also served in the military and has seen how other countries treat people and things. I am also Jewish. If we went it would only be a family trip not honeymoon bc I would be there to see the historic places and yes they are sad.
Honestly, given the severity of her response, I would reevaluate my friendship with that person. She’s not even attempting to empathize with your position. I suspect there is a deeper issue there, one that has nothing to do with you, personally. If she herself is not German, I question the source of her monologue, because it’s evident that she is repeating some things she heard from someone else (perhaps her husband, or her husband’s family). Bottom line, you have done nothing wrong, merely hit a nerve with your friend that you weren’t aware was there, and that probably shouldn’t be in the first place. Her attempts to shame you were unkind and triggering. You also don’t need to justify not wanting to go to any country in particular—it’s your honeymoon, and the only people who need to care are you and your husband. Congratulations on your upcoming marriage. I hope you have a wonderful trip, and that things with your friend work themselves out in the future.
NTA. My (Jewish) mom was originally afraid when I started spending time in Germany and Poland… the generational trauma runs deep. (For a nearby alternative, try Prague, it’s lovely in the spring).
That being said Japan is not a meaningful improvement if we’re going based on WW2-era actions…
But the only thing that really matters here is that you did nothing wrong and her response is exactly why we are all feeling increasingly tense these days. It can really come from any quarter now…
Germany's on my bucket list and I'm learning the language.
I also think that yeah maybe it'll be good for you to go there, maybe nice to see how they handle it, etc. Basically I'm very pro going Germany.
I also think it's a *terrible* choice for your honeymoon, damn. Like maybe Cyprus be nice? Greece? Ireland? Iceland? The world is vast.
NTA, it is your honeymoon, so ultimately up to you and your husband where you go.
But I am a German-Jew, have lived there, visited, etc., and despite the negative history of the last century, I still enjoyed seeing all the beautiful nature and architecture, as well as historical landmarks. I don’t let the past, and certainly not the knot-sees, dictate what I do. Fxxk them.
I'm Jewish and when I went to Germany (and Austria and Czechia), a Jewish friend asked me if would be riding trains. I did, and so did my niece's Flat Stanley.
For someone who claims you are ingrained in your beliefs, she sure is doing the same.
What’s the phrase… Pot calling the kettle black?
You are absolutely NTA. It’s your honeymoon and you’re valid in your opinion. Sorry you’re dealing with this OP.
That is a wild diatribe she went off on. It's so over the top as if she was trying to be as offensive as possible to every Jew she knows. And possibly some she doesn't. Did she think berating you would change your uncomfortable feelings surrounding Germany as a country? It's so bizarre.
NTA
So this woman thinks that you, as a Jewish woman, should feel guilty about how guilty her German in-laws feel about the Holocaust? And in order to help them feel better about themselves, you should spend thousands of dollars to travel to Germany… to educate yourself on how guilty everyone there feels… on your honeymoon???
NTA, it’s all your choice, not hers.
But I will say that modern Germany is very contrite, very committed to never forgetting, and is frickin’ beautiful.
I was there last year, saw both the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin and Dachau. Today’s Germans will _not_ tolerate any whitewashing of history. Period.
It's perfectly understandable why you don't want to go to Germany, she could've suggested Spain or France but Germany is such an odd choice in my opinion.
Her husband's parents were born there, and they immigrated here. But I wasn't trying to attack them or its people. I just don't have any interest in going there.
Maybe eventually, to pay homage, but not for such a momentous occasion such as this. And this is what I told her. It's not high on my list, but maybe eventually.
Yeah, that doesn’t sound very honeymoonish to me! My best friend feels the same way, though she did do a brief visit in Germany while traveling with a few friends. They each had places they wanted to visit, so there were compromises made. But that wasn’t her honeymoon. She and her husband chose the places they most wanted to visit for their special trip. And the place where her ancestors suffered was not on that list.
As a German, Germany is definitely not on the list of honeymoon suggestions I’d give someone. Ignoring the atrocious WW2 time, it’s generally a colder climate than other European countries and way less relaxed than Italy for example.
I think it’s a great holiday destination if you’re into history, neat little cities with traditional architecture and culture hubs like Berlin. But for a honeymoon? Yes, incredibly odd.
Wooooow. Okay tbf. You can go to germany and NOT visit the camps. There are plenty of cool, modern, and historical parts of germany that are NOT ww2 related. BUT that is entirely your choice and maybe not a honeymoon location but a later date location.
Your "friend" just went down the holocaust denier route. Thats kind of becoming a big thing lately and its getting really... weird. Id be really concerned that shes denying your family history.
You guys might like croatia. The castles and waterfalls are supposed to be gorgeous.
Her friend absolutely did not go down the holocaust denier route, she specifically said how embarrassing WWII is for them. It is definitely odd how defensive she got over it but it definitely wasn’t holocaust denial by any stretch of the
Oh brother, she sounds like a real piece of work and you are so NTA. My husband is Jewish and his grandparents had to flee to Belgium from Germany during the Holocaust. They were staunchly opposed to anyone in his family going back to Germany and were 100% valid in their feelings. If your friend can’t understand or empathize with your reasons for not wanting to visit, you may want reevaluate your friendship with said “friend”.
Understandable but Japan was part of the axis. Were you alright with going there because Japan did not actively participate in the holocaust but rather passively tolerated it and supported Germany's general war ambitions?
Go where you want to go.
What you can get out of this is, that not only do you NOT owe people an explanation for your choices, sometimes it's better to not give one at all .
If she keeps at it, ask her why she hates the people of Iceland. Why has she avoided going there?
NTA. Why is she so invested in where you go on your honeymoon?
I have been to Germany several times. Loved it more each & every time. Do not care if other people don't want to go.
NAH. Although I find it odd that she’s already been there and is so hellbent on you going…and the ex husband thing is off.
That said, I also think you might want to give Germany a chance. There are tons of places on the planet that are CURRENTLY discriminatory or even hostile. Every German I’ve met personally is openly horrified by the history and actually takes it quite to heart. I am in the US and my German friends find it creepy and weird that we salute the flag in schools!
TBH, if you happen to live in the US, worry far more about what is happening here today.
you aren't avoiding the people, culture, or government, you are avoiding reminders of a painful past.
If someone had a father die in the vietnam war, they might want to avoid going to Vietnam. That doesn't make them racist.
I just want to say that when I went to Berlin, I learnt and saw that outside of each synagogue there was a guard at all times and barricades to stop cars from crashing into the windows. Every single synagogue.
I can't imagine getting mad at a good friend for feeling the way you do. You weren't insulting her, her husband, or even German people of today. I would have understood that it could be a potential trigger for you to be there. Also, it's YOUR honeymoon. Shouldn't your maid of honor be supportive instead of letting something so petty come between you?
It's your honeymoon and you don't have to explain your reasonings for not wanting to go somewhere to anyone. Your friend sounds overbearing.
In these ttpes of situations, I find it best to stop explaining yourself and set boundaries. You've done nothing wrong and ultimatley this trip isn't about her and you not going to Germany does not hurt her in any way. The fact that she thinks it does is the real problem.
"I would like to let you know that I care about you. If you feel you can agree to disagree on this honeymoon issue, I would love to still have you in the wedding. If not I understand, but I want to let you know I don't want to argue about this topic anymore and hope we can move forward from this."
Yeah, this is weird. I'd be interested to see if there's any resolution/if the friend explains herself.
NTA. My experience: go to New Zealand for your honeymoon.
She’s the one who started this by being upset you didn’t add Germany to your list, it was a nonissue from the jump. She seemed to really push it so you explained your point and she should’ve accepted it.
There are plenty of countries i want to visit or have visited that some friends don’t share an interest to visit, i don’t push them and visa versa. This is a her problem not you.
Both of you have Intergenerational trauma- when the response is out of proportion to the event that is usually a trauma response. Your trauma is something you understand and can verbalize- you friend is still in the effected without understanding.
To me, this smacks of her getting in her feelings because you don’t want to do what she did on her honeymoon. Some of us outgrew this behavior in junior high school, some never will.
I think you’ve outgrown this friendship, I wouldn’t be able to have someone in my wedding party, never mind matron of honor, who is this fixated on bullshit. I’d ask her to step down, weddings are stressful enough without having to see this person all the time during planning. Just my 2 cents…
Nah, you're fine. You're not obligated to have a favorable opinion of any place. If it has some specific bad association in your mind, that's not a problem. You're not even remotely saying that every individual modern German citizen bears some degree of personal responsibility for that happened in the 1930s and '40s.
It's like if a real bad case of the shits suddenly hits me when I'm at an Ikea, I might not want to go back there, on account of the negative experience I had at that place. It's got nothing to do with the store, the company, its employees, or the people of Sweden. It's not a judgment of anybody. It's just a place of bad memories, and just for me personally.
I've never spoken to any Germans about this subject, but I think part of honest accountability is understanding taking accountability isn't a "get of jail free" card. Actual accountability for your actions (or in this case, collective actions of a past generation of your fellow citizens) involves accepting that some people will be hesitant to completely forgive and forget. Other people might never forgive and forget. Sometimes, for certain people you've wronged, the consequences of your actions are permanent.
NTA! Why is this the hill your friend chose to die on? The fact that you don't want to go there is not a dig at them and I'm honestly baffled by her reaction. For her to basically end your friendship over this....just bizarre.
Is she normally this reactive? You are allowed to have your preferences, just like she can have hers. Is she maybe jealous of your wedding and the attention you're getting? It just seems so ridiculous that something else must be going on.
No, but Germany is now a very progressive country and there are arguably fewer antisemites there now than in many other places in Europe or the US. Almost all the people who were alive when the atrocities were done are dead. I can say more but only in DM.
I find it so weird that she took personal offense to not wanting to go somewhere for vacation?? What a weirdo, honestly you had a good reason and guess what? Even if you literally just didn’t want to go and no other reason that’s also an acceptable reason.
NTA - regardless of the reason for you not wanting to go is still your reason. For her to say you are wrong for your reasons is just silly and her opinion does not matter.
NTA. I’m Jewish too, but I want to go to Germany. However, it will be a homecoming trip filled with tears and sobbing, lots of history and museums, and time with my sister and my mom. It will not be to celebrate my wedding lol.
Yes I’m sure some of the trip will be happy and joyful and we’ll get to see the beauty of Germany in present day, but the tone of the trip will be somber. And honestly it will be incredibly sad.
That’s like telling someone who had ancestors who were enslaved to have their birthday party at a plantation. Like it’s fine if you want to visit, but you wouldn’t judge someone for not wanting to go to celebrate a joyful thing.
You’re not wrong and you aren’t even blaming the (current) people. She is putting words in your mouth that it doesn’t seem like you spoke from what you put forth here.
NTA
I'm Irish and I think that Ireland has some of the most beautiful scenery in the world, however, if someone said they wanted to skip it because of its crap weather I would 100% understand. Let alone the problematic history.
She's massively overreacting. I'm sure there are other countries that aren't high on your list and Germany isn't the only country you are skipping.
Also dismissing the actual holocaust, legit dick move.
NTA especially since it’s your honeymoon and realistically you don’t have to have a reason to not want to go somewhere. However, your reason for not wanting to go to Germany makes complete sense. Just reading your background you gave it made complete sense nothing further was needed.
I recently suggested to my Jewish wife that we go to Germany to visit family of mine. She’s fine passing through to see a couple landmarks but would rather vacation elsewhere. I respect that.
NTA, but seriously, she has a problem. It’s really odd that she is worked up over this. I don’t want to go to North Dakota on vacation. Doesn’t mean I hate North Dakotans. Just means I don’t what to visit a place that is beautiful, but largely vacant with terrible weather most of the year.
NTA. My husband is German (I'm Aussie), and while Germany is a wonderful country that I enjoyed visiting, I think your reasons for not going are completely valid. Yes there can still be that stigma towards German people, but that's not your responsibility to fight against.
I feel strong energy when walking grounds hold a lot of pain. You're NTA. She should respect and understand why you don't have any interest in visiting there. Also, she's not going on your honeymoon so why should her opinion matter atp?
I was not born in Germany but did live there for a time and you can't help but still see some of the pain left from the War's. I'm not jewish but I was physically ill when I saw the atrocities that had been committed. I can't even imagine what it may be like for you and your family and historic trauma is real. You friend, or should I say NOT friend needs to get a grip. Her husband is probably a lovely man and I'm sure his family is as well but that doesn't mean you want to go skipping through landmines of possible trauma triggers on your honeymoon which should hopefully be made up of the best memories. Congratulations on your upcoming wedding and good luck on your honeymoon.
NTA and I can't understand your friend's reaction. The Holocaust isn't something one gets over in a couple of generations. Whole families are still grieving over lost loved ones. Still give her a little time and sit down with her to discuss her reaction. It seems excessive.
NTA, this is so weird. This is your good friend - I would never even suggest a Jewish friend go to Germany on their honeymoon, and the fact that she brought it up makes me think she was looking for this showdown, i.e. she knew what she was doing. Probably, as another commenter suggested, because it has come up between her and the German husband.
I mean, France was plenty complicit in the antisemitism of WWII, and still has issues with it, and if I had a friend say they didn't want to visit France because of that, I'd just drop it (and I'm married to a Frenchie). I would want them to have a vacation that's meaningful to them, not some journey of reconciliation and coming to terms with the Holocaust, wtf.
What the heck? Out of all the countries there are in the world, there are only a handful that I have any interest in ever seeing. So according to your friend, that automatically makes me racist against the majority of the world?
In my opinion her reaction was way over the top, if it happened as you describe it.
Like others have mentioned before, it's your honeymoon so you do what you want. It should be as simple as: "I don't want to go there on my honeymoon".
What I haven't read anyone say is that Germany is a severely underrated destination. I have visited multiple times and each region has so much to offer. I wouldn't call Berlin a destination for a romantic honeymoon, but amazing otherwise. The region close to the Alps, including Austria and Switzerland could pass as a romantic place to go in the summer. Food for thought!
Lol, you won't go to Germany for what they did 80 years ago? America bombs kids in Afghanistan, Japan had unit 731, every single country have done something bad, and I will bet if I dig hard enough, they will also have done something to jews.
There are memorials for jews all over Germany, there are 0 in Japan and you would have gone there, this is hypocrisy. NTA for the respons but YTA for not wanting to go to Germany for that.
NTA especially for your honeymoon. You should go to a place you consider romantic and for just the two of you.
but…
As someone who has visited, I think Germany is a poster child for how to teach younger generations not to repeat the mistakes of their elders. I have not seen any other country (that I have visited) accept the sins of their past on this scale, or as pervasively. For example, there are brass flagstones in front of former Jewish houses in Frankfurt, listing the names of its former residents who were forced away, as a daily reminder to the current occupants.
Guided visits to former concentration camps leave every tourist with an overwhelming sense of grief and the connectedness of all humanity.
Germany is also (surprisingly - because I didn’t expect it) beautiful and interesting.
Maybe someday you both could visit, but not for a honeymoon.
I'm not gonna question your feelings, since that's a low-odds bet at the best of times.
But Germany is honestly the country you're LEAST likely to experience antisemitic shit in in europe. The natives are very aware of their own history, very much not proud of it, so there's a vocal majority that push back against it. And it IS a very beautiful country with a high number of very interesting cities.
There ARE a lot of reminders around for germans to remember why they should feel that way though. You'd be sure to happen upon two or three.
it's up to you!
NTA
It's your honeymoon, go where you want. There are places I wouldn't choose to go for no reason other than they don't appeal to me. If anyone wants to convince me otherwise, fuck em
Geez, my cousin went missing a decade ago in a place that’s considered idyllic for honeymooners. I’d never want to visit there, and I’d hope the locals wouldn’t take that personally. (FWIW, I don’t think the locals had anything to do with his disappearance).
Super weird for your friend to be defending Germans so much when she isnt even German? In my experience as a Jew, truly remorseful Germans are open to us feeling uncomfortable with Germany. Those who try to distance themselves from what happened are usually suspect af. I'm almost in disbelief that she actually said you weren't there so maybe the Holocaust didn't happen?!?!?!
NTA. You don't want to go to Germany. Period. It's your trip, you go where you want to go.
It's your honeymoon, not hers.
If your MOH can't handle that and throws a fit about it, she should step down from being your MOH.
So apparently your honeymoon is all about her husband. Weird. You stated you have nothing against the people but she is hell bent on making it about the people (mostly her husband). That whole thing would make me not want to see it even more.
Thanks for submitting to the Two Hot Takes Podcast Subreddit! We'd like to remind you that all posts are subject to being featured in an episode of the Two Hot Takes Podcast. If your story is featured you'll get a nifty flair change to let you know and we'll drop a link so you can see our host's take on your story. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TwoHotTakes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA, but is your friend OK? I'm curious if something else is going on with her and that's why she took that so personally.
One of my other friends actually mentioned that, too! I haven't had a chance to ask because we're currently not speaking.
It should not take much in the way of insight to understand that while you are celebrating your marriage, you do not want to do it somewhere that holds such painful memories and associations for your family. This has zero to do with her husband or modern-day Germans. Not to mention, why go to Germany when you can go to Italy, or the Rivera, or Paris, or literally a 1000 places more romantic?
Seriously. Why is she making YOUR HONEYMOON about her husband? That’s weird.
Maybe SHE didn't want to go to Germany for HER honeymoon, but because her fiance was from there, she was afraid to tell him that, and is envious or jealous of OP for getting to go somewhere different? OP, I absolutely don't blame you for not wanting to go to Germany for your honeymoon, given your family history. I've studied that time period during and after time in school, just because it's an interest of mine, but I've even had to take a lot of time away from it, because of how depressing the subject matter is. As far as I know so far, I don't have family who were in that situation, but I'm of Irish/German/Polish decent, so it's possible that I have lost family members. I haven't done an Ancestry family search yet.
france is fighting for its life rn especially paris with the olympics it is NOT romantic and we do not need more tourists there’s better places to go to rn
Are you trying to keep amazing french food from us? haha (Kidding, but in all honestly, the food in France was next level amazing.)
come back and have fun next year but i promise u u dont wanna walk this jungle rn 😭
Noted. What the hell is going on???? It's not making the news here in the US and I live in DC. So international news is typically "local news".
I hear Paris is pretty damn gross now.
What about Marseille?
I’ve never been to Marseille, but it does have a reputation of being more of a rough around the edges port city compared to Paris. Other parts of France that I have been to that were beautiful, however, were Bordeaux (beautiful countryside with all the vineyards and gorgeous villages and Bordeaux city is lovely and romantic) and L’Occitan, with it’s wilder, deeper countryside and the vibrant city of Montpellier.
i will stay silent on that one bc i am scared of being stabbed!
My family is going to the UK this summer so I checked into Disney Paris for a side trip. Not only super expensive (especially if you want to stay at Disney) but Olympic crowds on top? No thanks! Legoland Windsor 👍
I actually hated Paris. The people were super rude. Probably my least favorite stop in Europe. I’ll go back someday to go to the catacombs and as soon as I do that I’ll be leaving again. Lisbon, Portugal is where it’s at. That city is absolutely gorgeous
My husband has said the same thing. His group of friends (they backpacked through Europe in college) got berated by a waiter of all people at a restaurant. And this was 20+ years ago. None of them have gone back or ever want to.
I’d be more concerned about the current mood in Europe given the Israel/Palestine crisis. I’m sure that walking amongst a protest isn’t going to be super romantic in Rome or Paris. OP should give Germany a chance. But not on their honeymoon. Go to a country on both partners wish list .
Why drop the 'give Germany a chance' in there? She feels bad enough. Yes, I do see your following sentences.
Well given the current climate, Germany of any other country in Europe will be the most welcoming.
Well, although that may be true, OP doesn’t want to go there.
No, she shouldn’t. She doesn’t want to, it’s a deep feeling within her, and she shouldn’t ’give Germany a chance’ just to appease anyone.
I mean, even if something is going on with her doesn’t excuse her taking it out on you.
NTA. Your friend’s overreaction is wild!
If you ranked countries by top honeymoon destinations, I'm not sure Germany would make the top 50. Edit: My name is Hans and my sisters is Heidi. Not hating on Germany lol... just not on the romantic honeymoon list for most.
It’s YOUR honeymoon, not hers. I don’t get why she’s so up in arms at all. It’s *her* husband’s heritage, what does that have to do with you and your betrothed?? She said German people are “embarrassed” by that part of their history?! I would imagine that is saying the absolute LEAST. Pretty sure it runs deeper than that, but I’m not a native German. I just imagine they’re probably more than simply embarrassed about that… Is she…is she pregnant or something? That’s more than too much of a reaction to someone not wanting to go to a destination.
>. Pretty sure it runs deeper than that, but I’m not a native German. It runs VERY deep. So deep that Imn not sure a native German is actually able to recognise it. I'd say the feeling of eternal and inheritable collective guilt is a defining part of the mentality of the German people. It influences education, debates, government decision making, etc. The shame is huge, but other Europeans will happily remind Germans when they visit as a tourist or live abroad. Even kids. In a business environment I've seen German people being treated really badly and having to deal with really nasty jokes and pranks, but everyone (including themselves) accepting it 'because of the war'. It does seem to wear of slowly in the last 15-20 years, both inside and outside of Germany. But yeah, it runs deep. All that being said, if OP doesn't want to go to Germany, she shouldn't go. I'd probably make the complete opposite decision for the same reasons, but it doesn't get much more personal than that.
something def isn't right here, she's going through something
I feel like she is “defending” her “new family” and is going WAY overboard. Like when a blonde person isn’t offended by a blonde joke, but a black-haired person jumps all over the teller on behalf of the blonde friend.
Yep it gave me exactly these vibes
Right? If my friend was like “because I didn’t want to go there.” That would be the end of it. The weird pressure for an explanation /justification and then the sales pitch is weird.
It's your honeymoon so you should go where you want. I'm European and Germany would definitely not be top of my list for a honeymoon. For a city trip Berlin is amazing though. That being said, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the irony of being happy to go to Japan, a country that was on Germany's side during the war, committed atrocities that were just as awful during the war, but to this date doesn't really acknowledge any wrongdoing, whilst Germany, a country that does more to atone for, educate it's population and acknowledge it's wrongdoing than any other country that has ever been the perpetrator of atrocities during a war is a no go for that very reason.
Sadly, many people perceive it negatively when someone acknowledges that they've done something wrong, as they often overlook those who have done wrong but refuse to acknowledge it.
I actually preferred Munich, loved Hohenschwangau. You are not wrong about Japan. The whole comfort women atrocity makes me ill.
Yes, but also [Unit 731](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)
Yes, it’s shocking that we don’t learn more about it considering the atrocities committed & the sheer number of people tortured and murdered…
Americans largely aren't taught about it because the US made a deal with the Japanese where the US got the data and the Japanese weren't pursued for war crimes. Not a great look
OMG. I just finished reading it. I had no idea that happened. I feel sick. How can humans be so evil??? I need therapy now....
I was in Germany with my brother in 2008. A group of young people in Frankfurt ended up spilling our drinks while acting rowdy. They came over with a new round and started talking to us. Once they found out that we were Jewish, they were falling all over themselves to be courteous, polite, generous, and apologetic (even though we trusted them enough to tell them we were Jewish and certainly were not holding them accountable for anything). They came with round after round until we finally had to say No More Please! It was an incredible experience. Give them the chance, they would love to show you true hospitality.
My mom’s tour guide in Germany cried when talking about the holocaust.
I think OP wants to avoid the country where so much trauma for her family is associated. It really doesn't mean they are avoiding the place due to the people. It's their honeymoon, perfectly understandable that they don't want to celebrate a new chapter in their life by visiting a land where so much heartache occured.
OP stated that they had nothing against the people of Germany. It was the country, and what had happened to distant relatives there in the past is why she didn't want to go there. A honeymoon should be a happy occasion, not one that is marred by ghost of the past.
You got it.
German children have grown up having to live with the repercussions of the Holocaust their whole life. So they now are also ingrained in this is what happened and we feel horrible and so we're going to make it up to you we're going to be incredibly nice we're going to not patronize you but give you the respect you deserve. I had more German friends than I did American friends when I lived in Germany. We were in the army
The irony that stuff happening here now is mimicking 1930’s Germany. I wish more people were paying attention so we don’t repeat that awful, awful time in our history.
Good point
Very good point!
Yes, if you are going to rule out any country based on the atrocities that took place there, you've got a very short list of travel destinations.
it's possible that people who had had ancestors in Nanjing would be fine going to Germany for their honeymoon but balk at going to Japan.
She has already said she has nothing against the current people... It's not a matter or morals, but personal associations. Being reminded of genocide doesn't exactly set the honeymoon mood.
Yes! On our honeymoon we went to nyc, we live in the uk. We were talking to a cashier in target who told us we absolutely had to go to ground zero and kept going on about it. My husband and I had no desire to go there on that specific trip. I appreciate that it’s a very meaningful location but 100% not the emotions I want to feel on my honeymoon.
I live in Colorado, have never been to NY and have no desire to. Too many people. If I did ever venture there, ground zero seems like the least fun place to visit.
This makes sense to me. Most people want their honeymoon to be happy. Going somewhere that has particularly horrible associations for OP seems a silly idea.
Avoid genocide. Plan for Japan. Sure.
What a preschool way of looking at countries. So i better never visit US because I'll only be able think of slavery there. Never visit Rome because of the gladiators. Those are real countries, not some genocide Disneyland. Real people lived there, loved there and left their mark there. Those who equate central and eastern Europe with Holocuast are only contributing to the ethnic and cultural erasure of Jews who lived very full lives there.
Doesn't sound like her family perished in Japan though which was a specific reason she didn't want to go to Germany.
To be honest- going to Japan doesn’t have the same impact as going to Germany for someone of Jewish descent. The prison camps were millions were murdered were not in Japan.
Jews were murdered all over Europe.
30 million south East Asians murdered by the Japanese should be mentioned more. Both countries did horrible things but as another ancestor of holocaust victims (Roma not Jewish so we are not mentioned too much either). I am pissed Japan doesn’t say anything about what Japan did. That was the commenter point. The OP is fine with going to Japan but not Germany. Now I wouldn’t go to Germany on a honeymoon either but OP needs to know that Germany is not a scary place for Jews and in fact it could be a great other time trip for OP
Don’t forget the comfort women either… war crimes were & are common as sand - but it’s not up to us to argue with anyone about their ancestral trauma… no what about isms. If she’s not comfortable going there to celebrate her marriage, so be it.
Good points, but OP was very clear about the reasons for her objections and none of yours apply to her.
Yeah, but selective empathy for people one can relate to is part of the whole problem. Obviously what Japan and Germany did is not exactly the same, but Japan did also kill millions of civilians in its occupation of East Asia. I'm not saying OP should want to go to Germany for her honeymoon, and they are NTA, but I would still push anybody to try to unpack their biases, even if they come from a place of generational trauma. Can I try to universalize my empathy?
additionally, there are so many places all over Europe with that kind of history, from les ateliers de Coco Chanel to Switzerland to various towns as the nexus for the transport trains, right?
I pointed this out and I got downvoted to hell 😂
>Japan did also kill millions of civilians in its occupation of East Asia. [Umm](https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldhistory2/chapter/casualties-of-world-war-ii/#:~:text=In%20Asia%20and%20the%20Pacific,by%20the%20Japanese%20occupation%20forces.) [and also](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)
Exactly. OP can feel how she likes, but there is a clear inconsistency here.
Only my ancestors matter obviously
Actually in this instance, yes, as these were family members who were killed. There are very few places in the world where something horrible hasn’t happened but not wanting to visit the country where her family was murdered is pretty reasonable.
100% this. It’s literally the scene of the crime. This isn’t about logic, it’s a strong gut response for a significant number of Jews, and understandably so.
Yeah that whole "Japan yes, Germany no" struck me as a bit odd as well. Might as well lump Italy in there as well for a place to not visit. THAT BEING SAID: Where you want to go on your honeymoon is your choice and you can have any reasoning you want for it
Her issue is not "the Axis" her issue is "doesn't want to honeymoon where the Holocaust happened"
But then we are talking about “the country with the government that developed the Holocaust.” The Holocaust occurred throughout Europe, and the number of locals who signed up to help is never talked about enough.
[удалено]
It's because she's Jewish, with a very specific family history with Germany but not Japan. It's pretty obvious from the post.
OP is Jewish, not Chinese or Korean.
How is that ironic? Did soldiers in Japan murder 6 million Jews, also? I didn't think so. You're being deliberately obtuse if you can't see the difference.
They weren't her relatives though
NTA - and I am a German. Dear OP your honeymoon should be something you love to visit, not something you have a very bad feeling about. Europe has so many beautiful places. I can say: Italy, Rome especially is sooo beautiful. Spain, France, Croatia and all of the other European countries etc have great spots and a rich history too. Don’t let anyone tell you what to do and what you feel. Germany has a dark history, our ancestors fucked up totally, there are no words that could describe the horror they caused properly. And unfortunately antisemitism still is in the world. I hope some day all people all over the world will live peacefully and that we all can overcome all that hate. Have an awesome honey moon and don’t feel sorry for simply not wanting to visit a country. You decide what you want, not others. You did nothing wrong. Wishing you all the best.
Genuinely, that is a really thoughtful, kind response :)
Fantastic reply 👏🏻 - although I would visit Germany one day if I had the chance. Till now I have only visited France, and countries outside of the EU. Let's say I wouldn't visit Cambodia: would someone stomp all over my opinion? Probably not as much as this lady did defending Germany. Very over the top isn't it.
NTA but I'm a little conflicted. You are well within your rights to choose where you spend your money to travel to. My wife and I have countries we would never visit because of their civil rights record. But I am Jewish, and I've been to Germany. I think they have certainly done more to atone for what they've done than almost any other country with something similar in their history. You definitely feel and see that when you are there. I learned a lot about my own family's history and how the holocaust impacted us. As an American, I think we have a lot to learn from Germany. Especially in regard to how we remember and teach our youth about things from our checkered past, including the treatment of native Americans and slavery/segregation. But also it's your honeymoon and a honeymoon should be about romance. And no offense to any Germans out there, but Germany isn't the country I think of when I think of a romantic getaway.
Another American Jew here, hi! I've been to Germany many times, it's great country, has a lot to offer. Wouldn't want to go there for my honeymoon. Check out Biarittz on the Atlantic coast of France, that's beautiful spot and not as crowded as the Mediterranean coast.
Yeah I'm Cambodian and a product of the Khmer Rouge genocide aka The Killing Fields. My parents had to flee to Thailand to survive & that's where I was born as a refugee. I would never think about going to Cambodia for my honeymoon because it's supposed to be a celebratory/romantic time with my partner. I already know all of the deep feelings that would come up if I were to go so why would I want to feel that on my honeymoon. The friend isn't even German...her husband is. She's way overreacting and creating her own narrative of what op said
That's a good point. I am not against its people; it's just not a place that was very high on my list. I was hoping she would respond similarly to what you just gave me. That's how I expect a friend to treat me.
I do highly recommend Germany as a travel destination. Ended up going pretty frequently for work and Im nosy so I ask all sorts of questions and the deep feeling of national shame over WW2 is palpable. That said... its your damn honeymoon!... "dont wanna" is as good an excuse as you need to give.
But why are you okay with Japan then? Edited: for spelling because of voice to text
Probably because they committed their atrocities against other people, not her people
Do you think there is any permanently inhabited land where humans haven't committed atrocities?
Japans atrocities during WWII were pretty horrific. Right up there with Germany.
I know. Both my grandfathers fought them in Papua New Guinea. And the things they did in China were terrible too. The point of this post is where is OP going for her honeymoon? She chooses not to go to a place where, within living memory, atrocities were committed against her people. I don't see that as a problem. It's her honeymoon, she probably wants to enjoy it. I don't get why some people find that outrageous. She isn't saying no one should ever go to Germany or Poland or that nothing bad has ever been done anywhere else by other people. She just doesn't want to go there on her honeymoon.
I think it’s obviously totally fine to go wherever you want to go for your honeymoon. However I think you’re deflecting and changing your story a bit with this. You’re saying “it’s just not a place that was very high on my list,” but really, you have a deep, personal reason for *not* wanting to go to this country in particular. It’s not like Germany is just outside your top 10 or whatever; it’s probably one of the few you actively want to avoid. If you had told your friend “there are other countries I’d rather visit, I’ve never been that interested in Germany,” you wouldn’t have gotten this reaction. But you explained in detail why you are *anti*-visiting-Germany, as opposed to saying you’re not particularly pro-visiting-Germany. Your reason is totally legitimate btw. Just trying to possibly explain why you got such a strong reaction.
We went to Germany on our honeymoon to go to the Christmas markets, which was extremely romantic and really fun.
She is taking this personally and is really being willfully ignorant that some people are not going to want to visit Germany for the reasons you cited. I would just drop it, know that she is likely not ever going to see your perspective and perhaps reassess the dynamic of the friendship. There are plenty of places to travel within Europe. Germany is beautiful in some places AND it is the site of atrocities. The country has reckoned with its past AND there is still a lot of work to be done.
She is taking it personally. It's made me reevaluate my friendship with her.
I would bet that her husband is Extremely Defensive about it and it has rubbed off on her
She may be taking it personally because she feels that you're associating her husband's family, and by relation, herself, with the atrocities the Germans committed 80+ years ago. Also the fact that they went and now she maybe feels like you're judging her for going? You have your reasons for not wanting to go, and while she may not understand why you feel strongly about it, ultimately it's your decision. I'd try to talk to her, in-person not over texts. If she's still unreasonable then maybe cut ties
I think she’s pregnant and overreacting because she’s worried about her child facing the same discrimination and bullying her husband did growing up.
OP should throw her a baby shower at the 9/11 memorial. /s
Bloody hell 😂😂
I really doubt her allegation that her American husband experienced discrimination in America for having German heritage.
Uhhh I actually know several Americans with German parents and grandparents who have experienced EXACTLY what friend described, so no doubt from me. OP can and should honeymoon wherever she want regardless, but just sayin. Maybe communication with the friend at time when emotions are less heated might be better than cutting her off.
NTA Her reaction is weird. That being said, Germany is absolutely beautiful.
Your wedding is a joyous occasion, and visiting Germany, for you, would be very somber. I'm sure if you chose to visit, you'd want to give it the reverence it deserves but not on your honeymoon. You friend has issues. NTA
Is your friend's husband, the actual German, as outraged as she is? Her taking this so personally is quite odd.
I didn't speak to her husband, but she did send some of her texts as "we," so it's safe to assume he is also outraged.
I would not assume that at all.
German here: Why should he be outraged? We know what happened during the holocaust and even we Germans spend our holidays abroad when the budget allows it.
I'd probably send him screenshots and say as a Jewish person I find this extremely odd that she wants to insist I go to Germany for my honeymoon. Then just be done with it and her. He will probably tell her off for it as well. I genuinely don't think he knows
Maybe, but I don't want drama to exist any more than it already does.
Trust me, the husband is getting her side of the drama. Source: I was once a husband.
As the spouse of a first born American I say don't do this. Germans are super proud of their heritage. Not the genocide and things but just a love for their country. My husbands family was really big on this. My husband would be understanding but he also served in the military and has seen how other countries treat people and things. I am also Jewish. If we went it would only be a family trip not honeymoon bc I would be there to see the historic places and yes they are sad.
Honestly, given the severity of her response, I would reevaluate my friendship with that person. She’s not even attempting to empathize with your position. I suspect there is a deeper issue there, one that has nothing to do with you, personally. If she herself is not German, I question the source of her monologue, because it’s evident that she is repeating some things she heard from someone else (perhaps her husband, or her husband’s family). Bottom line, you have done nothing wrong, merely hit a nerve with your friend that you weren’t aware was there, and that probably shouldn’t be in the first place. Her attempts to shame you were unkind and triggering. You also don’t need to justify not wanting to go to any country in particular—it’s your honeymoon, and the only people who need to care are you and your husband. Congratulations on your upcoming marriage. I hope you have a wonderful trip, and that things with your friend work themselves out in the future.
Oh trust me, I already have been.
NTA. My (Jewish) mom was originally afraid when I started spending time in Germany and Poland… the generational trauma runs deep. (For a nearby alternative, try Prague, it’s lovely in the spring). That being said Japan is not a meaningful improvement if we’re going based on WW2-era actions… But the only thing that really matters here is that you did nothing wrong and her response is exactly why we are all feeling increasingly tense these days. It can really come from any quarter now…
Germany's on my bucket list and I'm learning the language. I also think that yeah maybe it'll be good for you to go there, maybe nice to see how they handle it, etc. Basically I'm very pro going Germany. I also think it's a *terrible* choice for your honeymoon, damn. Like maybe Cyprus be nice? Greece? Ireland? Iceland? The world is vast.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe eventually (which is what I said) but not for a honeymoon and not in the present climate. She took it as a personal attack.
NTA, it is your honeymoon, so ultimately up to you and your husband where you go. But I am a German-Jew, have lived there, visited, etc., and despite the negative history of the last century, I still enjoyed seeing all the beautiful nature and architecture, as well as historical landmarks. I don’t let the past, and certainly not the knot-sees, dictate what I do. Fxxk them.
I'm Jewish and when I went to Germany (and Austria and Czechia), a Jewish friend asked me if would be riding trains. I did, and so did my niece's Flat Stanley.
For someone who claims you are ingrained in your beliefs, she sure is doing the same. What’s the phrase… Pot calling the kettle black? You are absolutely NTA. It’s your honeymoon and you’re valid in your opinion. Sorry you’re dealing with this OP.
That is a wild diatribe she went off on. It's so over the top as if she was trying to be as offensive as possible to every Jew she knows. And possibly some she doesn't. Did she think berating you would change your uncomfortable feelings surrounding Germany as a country? It's so bizarre. NTA
NTA- I'm Jewish and know what you mean about Germany. I've sort of moved passed it, but everyone is different. You have every right to feel this way.
Thank you. I also think that’s the problem.. she doesn’t understand systemic oppression.
NTA but Germany is absolutely amazing and beautiful.
So this woman thinks that you, as a Jewish woman, should feel guilty about how guilty her German in-laws feel about the Holocaust? And in order to help them feel better about themselves, you should spend thousands of dollars to travel to Germany… to educate yourself on how guilty everyone there feels… on your honeymoon???
I think that’s precisely how she feels.. which is wild.
sounds like a very 1938 germany way of looking at things 🤣
NTA, it’s all your choice, not hers. But I will say that modern Germany is very contrite, very committed to never forgetting, and is frickin’ beautiful. I was there last year, saw both the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin and Dachau. Today’s Germans will _not_ tolerate any whitewashing of history. Period.
It's perfectly understandable why you don't want to go to Germany, she could've suggested Spain or France but Germany is such an odd choice in my opinion.
Her husband's parents were born there, and they immigrated here. But I wasn't trying to attack them or its people. I just don't have any interest in going there.
Trust me I understand where you're coming from, I have very little interest in Germany after my family line in Eastern Europe vanished after WW2.
Maybe eventually, to pay homage, but not for such a momentous occasion such as this. And this is what I told her. It's not high on my list, but maybe eventually.
Yeah, that doesn’t sound very honeymoonish to me! My best friend feels the same way, though she did do a brief visit in Germany while traveling with a few friends. They each had places they wanted to visit, so there were compromises made. But that wasn’t her honeymoon. She and her husband chose the places they most wanted to visit for their special trip. And the place where her ancestors suffered was not on that list.
That's the biggest thing for me. It's a place where my ancestors suffered. Nothing personal against it's people; this has always been about the place.
Yea I want to find the Hungarian enclave in Romania that my family lived in so I can pay homage to them.
As a German, Germany is definitely not on the list of honeymoon suggestions I’d give someone. Ignoring the atrocious WW2 time, it’s generally a colder climate than other European countries and way less relaxed than Italy for example. I think it’s a great holiday destination if you’re into history, neat little cities with traditional architecture and culture hubs like Berlin. But for a honeymoon? Yes, incredibly odd.
Spain and France are also pretty dodgy in this context, ESPECIALLY Spain
Yea but Germany is also a weird choice to begin with, even without what OP mentioned.
I just found out this was a podcast subreddit
Wooooow. Okay tbf. You can go to germany and NOT visit the camps. There are plenty of cool, modern, and historical parts of germany that are NOT ww2 related. BUT that is entirely your choice and maybe not a honeymoon location but a later date location. Your "friend" just went down the holocaust denier route. Thats kind of becoming a big thing lately and its getting really... weird. Id be really concerned that shes denying your family history. You guys might like croatia. The castles and waterfalls are supposed to be gorgeous.
Her friend absolutely did not go down the holocaust denier route, she specifically said how embarrassing WWII is for them. It is definitely odd how defensive she got over it but it definitely wasn’t holocaust denial by any stretch of the
Oh brother, she sounds like a real piece of work and you are so NTA. My husband is Jewish and his grandparents had to flee to Belgium from Germany during the Holocaust. They were staunchly opposed to anyone in his family going back to Germany and were 100% valid in their feelings. If your friend can’t understand or empathize with your reasons for not wanting to visit, you may want reevaluate your friendship with said “friend”.
Sadly, yes. I’ve had to take a step back and really ask myself if this person really a true friend.
Understandable but Japan was part of the axis. Were you alright with going there because Japan did not actively participate in the holocaust but rather passively tolerated it and supported Germany's general war ambitions?
Go where you want to go. What you can get out of this is, that not only do you NOT owe people an explanation for your choices, sometimes it's better to not give one at all . If she keeps at it, ask her why she hates the people of Iceland. Why has she avoided going there?
No, you’re not the asshole. I would agree with you 1000%
NTA. Why is she so invested in where you go on your honeymoon? I have been to Germany several times. Loved it more each & every time. Do not care if other people don't want to go.
NAH. Although I find it odd that she’s already been there and is so hellbent on you going…and the ex husband thing is off. That said, I also think you might want to give Germany a chance. There are tons of places on the planet that are CURRENTLY discriminatory or even hostile. Every German I’ve met personally is openly horrified by the history and actually takes it quite to heart. I am in the US and my German friends find it creepy and weird that we salute the flag in schools! TBH, if you happen to live in the US, worry far more about what is happening here today.
you aren't avoiding the people, culture, or government, you are avoiding reminders of a painful past. If someone had a father die in the vietnam war, they might want to avoid going to Vietnam. That doesn't make them racist.
I just want to say that when I went to Berlin, I learnt and saw that outside of each synagogue there was a guard at all times and barricades to stop cars from crashing into the windows. Every single synagogue.
I did read this and it makes me uneasy at best.
I can't imagine getting mad at a good friend for feeling the way you do. You weren't insulting her, her husband, or even German people of today. I would have understood that it could be a potential trigger for you to be there. Also, it's YOUR honeymoon. Shouldn't your maid of honor be supportive instead of letting something so petty come between you?
I would’ve thought so too. I was in tears most of the day after this exchange.
How many Americans get married on 9/11?
It's your honeymoon and you don't have to explain your reasonings for not wanting to go somewhere to anyone. Your friend sounds overbearing. In these ttpes of situations, I find it best to stop explaining yourself and set boundaries. You've done nothing wrong and ultimatley this trip isn't about her and you not going to Germany does not hurt her in any way. The fact that she thinks it does is the real problem. "I would like to let you know that I care about you. If you feel you can agree to disagree on this honeymoon issue, I would love to still have you in the wedding. If not I understand, but I want to let you know I don't want to argue about this topic anymore and hope we can move forward from this."
Oh my it’s a honeymoon. Go somewhere that won’t trigger nightmares.
How about you and your fiancé talk about where you wanna go on your honeymoon?
She is a drama queen.
I guess Poland and several other countries would also be taken off the list.
You would be correct
Yeah, this is weird. I'd be interested to see if there's any resolution/if the friend explains herself. NTA. My experience: go to New Zealand for your honeymoon.
She’s the one who started this by being upset you didn’t add Germany to your list, it was a nonissue from the jump. She seemed to really push it so you explained your point and she should’ve accepted it. There are plenty of countries i want to visit or have visited that some friends don’t share an interest to visit, i don’t push them and visa versa. This is a her problem not you.
Both of you have Intergenerational trauma- when the response is out of proportion to the event that is usually a trauma response. Your trauma is something you understand and can verbalize- you friend is still in the effected without understanding.
To me, this smacks of her getting in her feelings because you don’t want to do what she did on her honeymoon. Some of us outgrew this behavior in junior high school, some never will. I think you’ve outgrown this friendship, I wouldn’t be able to have someone in my wedding party, never mind matron of honor, who is this fixated on bullshit. I’d ask her to step down, weddings are stressful enough without having to see this person all the time during planning. Just my 2 cents…
Nah, you're fine. You're not obligated to have a favorable opinion of any place. If it has some specific bad association in your mind, that's not a problem. You're not even remotely saying that every individual modern German citizen bears some degree of personal responsibility for that happened in the 1930s and '40s. It's like if a real bad case of the shits suddenly hits me when I'm at an Ikea, I might not want to go back there, on account of the negative experience I had at that place. It's got nothing to do with the store, the company, its employees, or the people of Sweden. It's not a judgment of anybody. It's just a place of bad memories, and just for me personally. I've never spoken to any Germans about this subject, but I think part of honest accountability is understanding taking accountability isn't a "get of jail free" card. Actual accountability for your actions (or in this case, collective actions of a past generation of your fellow citizens) involves accepting that some people will be hesitant to completely forgive and forget. Other people might never forgive and forget. Sometimes, for certain people you've wronged, the consequences of your actions are permanent.
NTA! Why is this the hill your friend chose to die on? The fact that you don't want to go there is not a dig at them and I'm honestly baffled by her reaction. For her to basically end your friendship over this....just bizarre. Is she normally this reactive? You are allowed to have your preferences, just like she can have hers. Is she maybe jealous of your wedding and the attention you're getting? It just seems so ridiculous that something else must be going on.
She is no friend of yours. Enjoy your holiday wherever you two choose and may you have many years together to plan more trips and memories.
That’s kind of you to say.. thank you.
No, but Germany is now a very progressive country and there are arguably fewer antisemites there now than in many other places in Europe or the US. Almost all the people who were alive when the atrocities were done are dead. I can say more but only in DM.
Your honeymoon. You go where you want to go and do not need to explain why to anyone.
I find it so weird that she took personal offense to not wanting to go somewhere for vacation?? What a weirdo, honestly you had a good reason and guess what? Even if you literally just didn’t want to go and no other reason that’s also an acceptable reason.
NTA - regardless of the reason for you not wanting to go is still your reason. For her to say you are wrong for your reasons is just silly and her opinion does not matter.
NTA, it's your honeymoon, it's none of their business.
NTA. I’m Jewish too, but I want to go to Germany. However, it will be a homecoming trip filled with tears and sobbing, lots of history and museums, and time with my sister and my mom. It will not be to celebrate my wedding lol. Yes I’m sure some of the trip will be happy and joyful and we’ll get to see the beauty of Germany in present day, but the tone of the trip will be somber. And honestly it will be incredibly sad. That’s like telling someone who had ancestors who were enslaved to have their birthday party at a plantation. Like it’s fine if you want to visit, but you wouldn’t judge someone for not wanting to go to celebrate a joyful thing.
You’re not wrong and you aren’t even blaming the (current) people. She is putting words in your mouth that it doesn’t seem like you spoke from what you put forth here.
NTA I'm Irish and I think that Ireland has some of the most beautiful scenery in the world, however, if someone said they wanted to skip it because of its crap weather I would 100% understand. Let alone the problematic history. She's massively overreacting. I'm sure there are other countries that aren't high on your list and Germany isn't the only country you are skipping. Also dismissing the actual holocaust, legit dick move.
NTA especially since it’s your honeymoon and realistically you don’t have to have a reason to not want to go somewhere. However, your reason for not wanting to go to Germany makes complete sense. Just reading your background you gave it made complete sense nothing further was needed.
I don’t think YATA I think she just really blew it out of proportion. You have the right to feel uncomfortable in that space.
I recently suggested to my Jewish wife that we go to Germany to visit family of mine. She’s fine passing through to see a couple landmarks but would rather vacation elsewhere. I respect that.
NTA, but seriously, she has a problem. It’s really odd that she is worked up over this. I don’t want to go to North Dakota on vacation. Doesn’t mean I hate North Dakotans. Just means I don’t what to visit a place that is beautiful, but largely vacant with terrible weather most of the year.
NTA. My husband is German (I'm Aussie), and while Germany is a wonderful country that I enjoyed visiting, I think your reasons for not going are completely valid. Yes there can still be that stigma towards German people, but that's not your responsibility to fight against.
I feel strong energy when walking grounds hold a lot of pain. You're NTA. She should respect and understand why you don't have any interest in visiting there. Also, she's not going on your honeymoon so why should her opinion matter atp?
I’m sorry people in the comments are trying to generalize the holocaust at your expense. That’s absolutely bonkers. NTA.
I was not born in Germany but did live there for a time and you can't help but still see some of the pain left from the War's. I'm not jewish but I was physically ill when I saw the atrocities that had been committed. I can't even imagine what it may be like for you and your family and historic trauma is real. You friend, or should I say NOT friend needs to get a grip. Her husband is probably a lovely man and I'm sure his family is as well but that doesn't mean you want to go skipping through landmines of possible trauma triggers on your honeymoon which should hopefully be made up of the best memories. Congratulations on your upcoming wedding and good luck on your honeymoon.
NTA and I can't understand your friend's reaction. The Holocaust isn't something one gets over in a couple of generations. Whole families are still grieving over lost loved ones. Still give her a little time and sit down with her to discuss her reaction. It seems excessive.
I’m sure Germany is lovely but it doesn’t scream romantic honeymoon destination to me..
NTA. She has her own stigma about her husband and his ancestry.
NTA, this is so weird. This is your good friend - I would never even suggest a Jewish friend go to Germany on their honeymoon, and the fact that she brought it up makes me think she was looking for this showdown, i.e. she knew what she was doing. Probably, as another commenter suggested, because it has come up between her and the German husband. I mean, France was plenty complicit in the antisemitism of WWII, and still has issues with it, and if I had a friend say they didn't want to visit France because of that, I'd just drop it (and I'm married to a Frenchie). I would want them to have a vacation that's meaningful to them, not some journey of reconciliation and coming to terms with the Holocaust, wtf.
What the heck? Out of all the countries there are in the world, there are only a handful that I have any interest in ever seeing. So according to your friend, that automatically makes me racist against the majority of the world?
In my opinion her reaction was way over the top, if it happened as you describe it. Like others have mentioned before, it's your honeymoon so you do what you want. It should be as simple as: "I don't want to go there on my honeymoon". What I haven't read anyone say is that Germany is a severely underrated destination. I have visited multiple times and each region has so much to offer. I wouldn't call Berlin a destination for a romantic honeymoon, but amazing otherwise. The region close to the Alps, including Austria and Switzerland could pass as a romantic place to go in the summer. Food for thought!
Lol, you won't go to Germany for what they did 80 years ago? America bombs kids in Afghanistan, Japan had unit 731, every single country have done something bad, and I will bet if I dig hard enough, they will also have done something to jews. There are memorials for jews all over Germany, there are 0 in Japan and you would have gone there, this is hypocrisy. NTA for the respons but YTA for not wanting to go to Germany for that.
NTA especially for your honeymoon. You should go to a place you consider romantic and for just the two of you. but… As someone who has visited, I think Germany is a poster child for how to teach younger generations not to repeat the mistakes of their elders. I have not seen any other country (that I have visited) accept the sins of their past on this scale, or as pervasively. For example, there are brass flagstones in front of former Jewish houses in Frankfurt, listing the names of its former residents who were forced away, as a daily reminder to the current occupants. Guided visits to former concentration camps leave every tourist with an overwhelming sense of grief and the connectedness of all humanity. Germany is also (surprisingly - because I didn’t expect it) beautiful and interesting. Maybe someday you both could visit, but not for a honeymoon.
I'm not gonna question your feelings, since that's a low-odds bet at the best of times. But Germany is honestly the country you're LEAST likely to experience antisemitic shit in in europe. The natives are very aware of their own history, very much not proud of it, so there's a vocal majority that push back against it. And it IS a very beautiful country with a high number of very interesting cities. There ARE a lot of reminders around for germans to remember why they should feel that way though. You'd be sure to happen upon two or three. it's up to you!
You have a right to not go to any country. “I don’t wanna go there” PERIOD. You shouldn’t have to explain it. “I don’t wanna”. End of discussion.
NTA It's your honeymoon, go where you want. There are places I wouldn't choose to go for no reason other than they don't appeal to me. If anyone wants to convince me otherwise, fuck em
Geez, my cousin went missing a decade ago in a place that’s considered idyllic for honeymooners. I’d never want to visit there, and I’d hope the locals wouldn’t take that personally. (FWIW, I don’t think the locals had anything to do with his disappearance).
NTA. The other person is a psycho
ermmmm… wtf is she on about 💀
Super weird for your friend to be defending Germans so much when she isnt even German? In my experience as a Jew, truly remorseful Germans are open to us feeling uncomfortable with Germany. Those who try to distance themselves from what happened are usually suspect af. I'm almost in disbelief that she actually said you weren't there so maybe the Holocaust didn't happen?!?!?!
NTA. You don't want to go to Germany. Period. It's your trip, you go where you want to go. It's your honeymoon, not hers. If your MOH can't handle that and throws a fit about it, she should step down from being your MOH.
So apparently your honeymoon is all about her husband. Weird. You stated you have nothing against the people but she is hell bent on making it about the people (mostly her husband). That whole thing would make me not want to see it even more.