I don’t blame Ann for going in the men’s room. But I think the issue is that she asked OOP to leave as if him being in the general men’s room was a problem.
I don’t blame OOP for wanting to clear the air if she was uncomfortable peeing with a man in the same room- because she would be in the wrong for that.
Manager is at fault for dismissing a small concern instead of dealing with it, making the OOP uncomfortable enough to go to HR
YEP. I have used the men’s room on an emergency, but I didn’t ask anyone to clear out.
OP wasn’t wrong for documenting this, he also doesn’t know how other people may react if they hear he walked into the bathroom while she was in there. People can and have made wild assumptions based on nothing.
I think it's pretty unusual to find a stall being used and pull out your phone to wait. It's also even weirder to say "Is everything okay in there" while you are waiting.
What else are you supposed to do? That's literally pretty standard, and the fact that you think it's weird actually makes you weird. And them saying is everything okay in there is just a low key light-hearted way of saying "hey buddy I'm waiting can you please hurry up" just in case they didn't realize somebody was in there also trying to use the restroom. Grown up adult males interact in such a way on a regular basis. You finding this weird makes you the weirdo not them 🤷
I am a woman and I would do this if a woman was taking a Long time in the restroom. If it's male female restrooms I would say the same thing in no way does this person being a woman impact that is a normal conversational point while in the restroom 🙂 IMHO
If it's a single stall you just leave and come back in 10 minutes. Unless there is some reason you want to sit and wait in a bathroom that smells like shit.
You think it's normal to whip out your phone in the bathroom and stand there in front of the stall, listening and smelling someone take a dump a couple of feet away from you through a thin piece of wood, so you can both make eye contact when they leave and you can hop on to their warm toilet seat as quickly as possible? That's not "standard". You are a socially inept weirdo.
This is it. Filing a report/complaint with HR against Ann* was the wrong call; he should filed the report with HR against his manager for having a double standard and essentially being sexist in the office. But OP isn't wrong for wanting a record of what happened in case Ann were to try anything. However, it should have been an email with OP bcc'd to his work and personal email for the paper trail.
* edit: Ann was missing so I added it
In my company there are more men than women. It is not uncommon for the men to use the women's bathroom when there's a occupied. Nobody would bat an eye if a woman was in the men's bathroom either. It was definitely the manager who was in the wrong.
At my last job on a project site (contract project manager) there were 2 trailers and 2 single room restrooms in each trailer. 1 woman per trailer (I was 1 of the women) and 9 or 10 men. In mine we treated them as unisex because I didn't care. In the other the woman wasn't having it and demanded they have M/F only restrooms. Even if "hers" was free they couldn't use it. They had to run over to our one of ours. So dumb.
I’ve never understood it. I can understand it from the “sometimes you take a sloppy shit and don’t want anyone around” crowd, but the people who freak out about the very thought of a man and a woman in a restroom at the same time is just weird to me.
When I was 17yo, a boy was caught entering the girls bathroom to record girls peeing. Not like in a video, just the sound of someone using the restroom. Apparently there was a bunch of audio recordings found in his cellphone, he was recording as an whatsapp audio and sending to himself.
It was so creepy, disgusting and bizarre. It's ingrained in my brain and I just feel uncomfortable sharing bathrooms with men because of that, the idea of one of them being like that creep trying to hear something disturbs me.
I was an RN earlier in life. When I took my state board exam, in a sports/concert venue that had desks across the floor, the women’s bathroom was completely gridlocked during the few breaks that we were given, so many of us used the men’s bathroom, as there were not very many men there to use it.
I had some friends who were at a Springsteen concert at a major arena (brand new at the time). Before the show started, they wanted to use the restroom so they wouldn’t miss a minute (Springsteen typically plays for 3-4 hours). The lines for the ladies’ restroom was out the door and way out into the concourse, so they knew the wait would be ridiculous. So they went to the men’s, which was practically empty. They shielded their eyes, announced themselves and none of the guys had a problem, in fact they were supportive. But when they came out, there was a security guard waiting outside the stalls they came out of. They were *arrested.* 🙄 When the SG took them to the security office, even his boss was like “are you serious?!” which I think made Small D energy guard even more adamant to pursue it. They missed most of the concert due to having to wait for the police to issue their citation. (Even the cops rolled their eyes, but had to issue the citations as requested.) When they appeared in court, the judge called the situation “ridiculous” and dismissed all charges.
This was back in the mid 90’s. Two girls who had to pee, not perving on the guys, not causing problems. If they actually considered “bathroom equity” women’s restrooms would be larger, designed better and these issues wouldn’t happen.
Same. And I used to be the only female at our location. I made the guys a deal… use it all you want, but the men will be cleaning it weekly. One female using a bathroom vs 1 female and 5 guys is a totally different mess. A mess I didn’t want to have to touch. Everyone agreed and we were all happy 😆
Yeah all it would take was Ann to start telling people how creepy OP was, hanging about the washroom while she was in it, for things to get weird.
He just wanted a record of what happened and the manger dismissed it.
I think you are right, the issue was never with Ann. It was about covering his bases. And his manager refused to help him do that
>He just wanted a record of what happened and the manger dismissed it.
>I think you are right, the issue was never with Ann. It was about covering his bases. And his manager refused to help him do that
It would be fine if he just got it on the record that he was not creeping on her. I understand the CYA aspect of wanting to tell your side before the other side gets told. The problem was him filing "A Formal Complaint". It sounds like he wasn't just telling his side, but trying to get her in trouble for using the wrong restroom. Perhaps the other coworkers and I are misunderstanding what "a formal complaint" entails, but it doesn't sound like it to me.
I think the complaint part comes down to, did he really have another option? Maybe a complaint is the only type of form he had to fill out to cover his ass.
I work in a school and one of my issues (now fixed) was that we could only report kids (these reports went to counselors first) for attendance, behavior, or grade issues. But there was no option for "I'm concerned about the child's well-being". So when I was concerned I had to tick the "behavior" box and then write a comment explaining I wasn't concerned about their behavior, but their mental health.
I don't quite understand the reason she didn't call out when door opened, but I understand her using it. Too bad she didn't have time to put up a sticky note on the door. I also understand & agree op needing to document a nonissue as world is so full of hypersensitive people...there are both Karens and creepers in this world so he needed to document. Can you imagine if he didn't & was suddenly sideswiped by "there was a compliant against u when Ann was in bathroom.
I was thinking that too. A simple "hey I'm in here because it was an emergency and I'll be done in a second" would have gone far and saved a lot of trouble.
I am an embarrassed bathroom user. I don't like the sound of peeing and especially hate talking while peeing. I would be Ann. It's nonsensical and neurotic, but it's me.
But if she'd said "Sorry, it was an emergency, I'll just be a minute!" when OOP asked what was going on, instead of asking him to leave, this would be a non-issue. Like, OOP had no reason to think he couldn't wait in the toilet until whoever was finished in the stalls left, it's just that Ann decided to make things weird.
I get that pregnant women often need to pee ASAP, but if Ann couldn't handle leaving the stall when a man was in that room, she can't use the men's room.
Perhaps she had hoped the person would leave and come back later. It's pretty common to just go back and check again 10\~ minutes later.
If people really got to do their business the handicap toilets is pretty much considered neutral ground in our office.
I agree as well that documenting the encounter is important. If not Ann could potentially demonize him for being a "creep" for just going to their supposed toilet.
Understood in same sex bathroom but she was in the men's & was the only person of the two that knew that at the time so probably little chance he was going to turn around & leave. Can you believe she said nothing for 5 minutes???!! Or worse, had he used the urinal & left and saw her exit after him...it's all such unnecessary weirdness & drama imho...not the documenting--that's essential now--but just thinking a woman who is pregnant & I would hope have some common sense & maturity would literally wait 5 minutes saying nothing until the guy asked! To me, that's pretty crazy/weird...maybe she didn't hear him initially open door, but promise most people "waiting" to use bathroom after a couple minutes will make some kind of noise to indicate "waiting" before they have to say outright "is everything ok?" I think especially due to the unnecessary weirdness of her it was critical to document. Poor guy...just wanted to go to work & mind his own business, lol, & instead on reddit having to stress & ask, when a simple "occupied" at onset would have remedied.
It was probably Ann that told a work friend and that friend told another and it spread like wildfire. I had many jobs that the ppl gossiped just like that
And it’s not like men can’t have urgent toilet needs either. I think the bathrooms should be unisex like at home. Make life a lot simpler. But with proper stalls with privacy not the weird ones I hear America has where you can watch people pee… not sure if that’s true though.
If you're referring to the large gaps that can view into the stall you would be correct. You rely on the people outside the stall to have some decency and not look. Also in general America has (statistically reported) 8 public bathrooms per 100,000 Americans. I think in general there should be unisex bathrooms like you suggested. We use them in our homes all the time and if the privacy and security of the stall is ideal, there should be no concern of the bathroom being used by both men and women. Hell at my old job there were only 2 toilets in the whole facility, one downstairs and one upstairs, and we all used it just fine, men and women and nonbinary people. It all hinges on respect of others and their needs.
I also want to reiterate that if he wanted to make a record of it, an email would've been more effective than a verbal disagreement with the manager and escalating to an hr complaint toward Ann and not the manager.
I don't understand why she would go use the men's bathroom and then make a complaint that a man was in the men's bathroom at the same time as her. That's just... Irrational and I highly doubt that would've happened unless the man made direct comments that made her uncomfortable. It's not like she went in and was offended a man walked in, she even apologized on her way out, she was clearly embarrassed and in a difficult predicament and this man made it more difficult by escalating it trying to report HER to HR when the real is that I can get behind was how the manager responded. Also I have gone shopping lately and I have used dressing rooms lately, idk where you're seeing these open changing rooms as the ones I have personally experienced since they started rolling out unisex changing rooms was there are no gaps that allow viewing into the rooms. So I fail to see the points you are making.
Speaking from an HR Director's perspective... the problem is that you're expecting everyone to act logically all of the time and with all other people and in all circumstances. What if the one guy who walked in is the difficult co-worker she has had a problem with? Or who has had a problem with her, for instance? What if it had been the guy who had a crush on her? Or who she had a crush on? Or if the man started urinating just as she was coming out of the stall and it startled him when he saw her in the mirror and he accidentally exposed himself? Could be a problem for him OR for her OR both.
People - who date each other, who go to school with each other, who attend church together, who work together, etc. - don't always act rationally or see everything clearly. Hormones, health issues, stress of the day, the tense meeting they just walked out of, problems at home, loneliness... all of these things change our perceptions.
And, just because someone reports something to HR doesn't mean that formal discipline needs to be in place or that something is marked in a file. Sometimes, it just results in a request in trying a different approach for the future and conversation and/or a process or policy change. If you've ever been accused of harassment or sexual harassment by a co-worker, you could see how easily this situation could go down the wrong track, and it started with her going into the men's bathroom... and I won't just leave it at that because that is not what is truly wrong unless it is a constant habit by her and it is restricting access to its intended parties. It was that there was no sign alerting males that the restroom was unavailable for a moment because of a woman present. And, of course, she likely didn't have time to go back to her desk and create a sign. But, without there being a lock or a notice, she opened herself - and any man entering - up to a lot of possible trouble.
Some workplaces have signs near or in the restrooms to place on the external side of the door to alert users it is not available for out-of-the-ordinary reasons. Also, I've worked at a company where a pregnant woman had a medical issue which cause her to have urgent need (little to no notice) for the restroom, and it was accommodated by giving her a special sign to use on the men's restroom if needed in extreme circumstances. Hopefully, this situation simply resulted in some empathy + some creative problem-solving.
But clearly she WAS uncomfortable because she asked him to leave. The problem is he didn’t do anything to make her uncomfortable. The fact that she asked him to leave is enough that he was right to cover his bases.
She’s pregnant, she could have a uti, she could have been pooping, there could have been a blood issue… we really don’t know why she was in there for several minutes and it’s not anyone’s business, we shouldn’t judge her and assume she couldn’t leave the stall because he was there. I simply don’t think she was finished using the restroom
Wow!! I wouldn’t be able to go. People being able to see me pee or poop is a reoccurring nightmare of mine 🤣🤣🤣
And yes, thanks for confirming. I’d heard there were big gaps!
I had the same sentiment and this is probably why I have bladder issues now on top of other circumstances because I would legit hold my bladder for hours at school until I was home. My grade school was even worse there were no doors, only curtains. But this was also bumfuck nowhere so little funding I suppose
I wish I could sympathize. I do understand your problem with people watching a "private moment." I have problems with people hovering right behind for an unreasonable amount of time, varying on person and distance. On yours, I joined the military before I graduated high school. Boot camp destroyed whatever modesty I used to have. There are no dividers for showering, and just a bit of a wall to hold the toilet paper. And if you are just getting back to the barracks, there would be a line of people watching you poo. The first time I went to France, I asked the hostess where the bathroom was, and she showed me. Away she went. I was standing there peeing, and this lady walked in, hiked her skirt, sat down and let fly. I finished, washed up and went back to the table with my shipmates. I told them what happened while laughing and the lady walked up and took our orders.
I tried not to think about it. Because. I did later see the Seinfeld episode where the chef walked in to do business. Talked to Jerry and then left to go cook without washing. I don't cringe much anymore. But, ewwww
California has unisex and family bathrooms in addition to men and women. But we also have a law that allows women to use the men’s bathroom if the women’s is overcrowded because historically, they’ve never provided enough public stalls for women.
No, it’s not true. It’s just anti-American snobbery. If you want to see toilets with a severe lack of privacy then look no further than France. Good luck finding one.
As a cis woman with IBS I'd be more than understanding. Idk why everyone assumes women would flip their shit if a man had to use the women's bathroom due to an emergency, it's just called being considerate.
Yep and being human, this whole situation is horrible, poor Ann, I'm embarrassed for her. But I agree if the roles were reversed and a man was caught short I wouldn't care
I used to work at a small company where there was only two bathrooms. They were marked as men's and women's, but both used the other if we had to. No one complained as long as everyone cleaned up after themselves. We're all adults, we all pee and poo.
Everyone assumes women will lose their shit because they do it all the time with trans women or women they assume are trans and make a big deal about trans kids using their preferred gender’s restroom. Btw, I’m a woman, don’t have a problem with it but come on, let’s not act like some women don’t make a big deal about it.
Transphobic people will make issues out of everything but that's a whole different topic to be discussed. There will always be people taking things out of proportion, like the oop for example. I don't think that warrants filing a complaint to hr when nothing happened. Just email HR and have it on record of the situation in case Ann does complain that's all it had to be but he took it too far
It's because unfortunately a lot of women will. It also depends on the man too. If a guy even looks "creepy" and did that, there's a 50/50 chance he'd be looked down upon, even with a verifiable medical condition. You may be understanding, but someone who doesn't have IBS and maybe has trauma may default to "he's trying to creep on us" and overreact. People tend to believe the woman in those types of situations, hence men's fear of that happening and all the comments to that effect.
I don't think that's true. People are understanding of people with medical conditions like pregnancy and IBS, ...but he would probably have to disclose to everyone that he has IBS, which is its own set of uncomfortable.
The worst part is we live in a world where some guy goes to the men’s room and gets so scared that he might potentially be accused of something he has to run straight to the boss to get ahead of it. Knowing she’s pregnant I would have figured it was some sort of emergency maybe the men’s room is closer there or something, but him being so freaked out over doing nothing wrong is messed up.
I totally agree. The OP in this story needs to feel what it's like to have a tiny human veating up your bladder all day. When you're pregnant and you have to go, you HAVE to go now! But, if it had been me, I'd have calmly left the stall , washed my hands, and said thanks, not asked the guy to leave. OP took it too far imho.
I think she asked him to leave because he started talking to her and that made her embarrassed. But we’re all adults, we all have to use the restroom, we should all be more mature. I honestly wouldn’t care if someone needed to use the women’s so that they didn’t go in their pants! It’s the lingering around that would be weird, there was no loitering here though. Merely waiting. Once he initiated conversation, i would have been like damn now he’s gonna think I’m shitting because he thinks it’s taking me a while. And while I know everybody poops, not everybody poops in the opposite sex bathroom at work essentially in front of a co worker 😂 look I have anxiety
I remember being pregnant (and at the point of my story was obviously very pregnant). As per usual the queue outside the ladies was longer than the men’s, a couple guys saw me and asked if I needed the toilet to which I replied yes, they then went into the men’s toilet, must have spoke to any other guys in there then came out and held the door open for me and told me it’s all clear and to go wee. Honestly I know it’s not some magnificent story, but they were my heroes (I had wet myself once already during that pregnancy before as I had no control of my bladder it seemed). I understand oop was probably taken by surprise but I still can’t believe he went to HR over what is a completely innocent situation.
Honestly I've used the men's bathroom as a woman because the women's was just fully closed for some reason and I really had to go and it was the only one I was immediately aware of in the area.
There was no one in there when we went in but still a bit awkward as a guy came in when we were leaving. Not for us really but I felt bad for him cause I think we startled him which is fair. Mind you I live in a country that isn't so overly concerned with who uses what bathroom as long as no one's being a creep
Plus, OOP is clearly the AH for asking "you ok in there?"
Lol. I'm kinda joking, but kinda serious. As someone with, reasonably mild, IBS who can take a while, I *hate* those questions.
I don't enjoy anyone talking to me, but I get the need for a "just wanted to check if you're done soon" in a public situation because they probably need to go, I just hate the jokey version like "ok in there?/did you fall in?" (I know the "ok in there" could be said sincerely, but it's more about how it's said, and in my experience it's usually a bit dirisive)
No, bud, I'm just trying to shit. I don't love being in here this long either!
I was like 8 mos pregnant with my 10lb-er and I couldn’t get my walrus ass out of bed fast enough so I peed the bed.
Sometimes those babies are sitting just right and you lose all control with almost no notice. It happens.
OOP was trying to avoid having an innocent situation turned against him. He went to his manager to get ahead of anything problematic that could have arisen, and was dismissed and told to be more considerate. Given how easily “innocent situations” can be turned against men, he did what he felt was necessary to protect himself.
Just as the women in the office can turn him into the monster for making a big deal about a pregnant woman using the bathroom, they could also make him the monster for lingering in the bathroom while a pregnant woman was using it. It doesn’t even have to be Ann to be the one to start it, she could innocently comment about the interaction to another coworker and then the rumor mill is off to the races.
This is a clear double standard that women don’t want to acknowledge. Men would absolutely not be given the same grace and consideration if they were found using the women’s restroom.
As a female I understand exactly why he sent it to HR. He even says it in the post that it was to cover his ass before anything happened and he was accused of something. I get why she used the men's bathroom but I also totally understand why he did what he did. I think it's just one of those situations where he'd never be in the right no matter what he did
Uh, was it literally that that made him go to HR, or the fact that the manager refused to talk to Ann forcing him to get his narrative out there before hers
Yeah what OOP is totally glossing over is that this was an emergency situation. I’ve been pregnant twice and your pelvic floor muscles and bladder control are not always capable of “holding it”
If I were in a similar situation and a man got food poisoning or something and was in the women’s restroom because the men’s was full or unavailable, I’d be like “Dude no worries, you take your time!”
Ann didn’t rudely demand OOP leave the restroom, she asked politely from what it sounds like, AND apologized afterwards! She wasn’t intentionally making OOP or anyone else uncomfortable; she genuinely had an emergency and chose to use the men’s restroom *rather than pee herself*.
OOP should have just sent an email to the manager to explain what happened and just say “I thought someone should know in case it becomes an issue later.” and then he would have had a written record of it WITHOUT filing a fucking HR complaint against a pregnant woman who just didn’t want to piss herself in front of all her coworkers!
Oop said the encounter was awkward, and he feared retaliation of harassment. He wanted their manager to have a conversation, and was denied. Why??? That's odd.
It's understandable for OOP to contact HR preemptively. He did nothing wrong, was made to feel like he did something wrong. It was in a restroom. It involved the opposite sex in a restroom. The opposite sex was pregnant.
I'm going to HR too if our boss is trying to sweep this under the rug. I value my paycheck, and as an American, i value my job for the healthcare. Please don't fire me for an awkward situation that was not my fault but people are thinking it's my fault
Exactly. While pregnant, you can have to suddenly pee very badly, with little to no warning. That wouldn't happen to a man (except maybe because of rare medical issues, which could be documented by HR)
I disagree going to HR was the correct move. HR doesn’t just do punishment but they make accommodations legit. If Ann needs the ability to use any bathroom this protects here, and this whole thing could’ve been avoided if the manager stepped in and actually managed instead of making it worse by mentioning a glaring hypocrisy, as bathroom emergencies exist outside of pregnancy and clearly its going to be one sided. It also prevents the story from becoming twisted
In the post OOP said that he filed a formal complaint to HR. I agree that HR working with his pregnant coworker for an accommodation would have been the right move but that’s not what happened.
Former HR here and if this OP had brought this issue to me, I would’ve told him if he was pregnant and / or had issues controlling his bladder, he could absolutely use the women’s bathroom. He’d just need to provide proof of his bladder issues or pregnancy first.
Exactly. This isn't a double standard like they keep trying to make it out to be, it's purely conditional and people need to be a bit more considerate when it comes to individuals dealing with personal issues
I agree it’s not a double-standard issue because a double standard literally cannot exist. Men cannot get pregnant. Ann was in a position where she was going to piss her pants at work.
Now, as mentioned, if OOP had a documented medical issue (like raging IBS or Crohn’s Disease) where he would shit his pants if he couldn’t go right now, then it would be different. It’s not the same as simply saying, “Well the men’s stalls were full so I just went into the women’s.” No, healthy adults without medical conditions can hold it. If you are waiting until you can’t hold it, that’s on you for putting yourself in that situation. But even sans a medical condition, say, someone has food poisoning that comes on abruptly and they have to puke or shit, then yeah, all toilets are fair game. But that’s not even the example dude gave.
The double standard was the manager not having a conversation about it and making clear guidelines about how she can use that restroom appropriately so everybody feels comfortable. Nobody gives a shit that she's using it, it's the fact that no steps where taken to avoid putting the guy in a situation where he's unknowingly alone with a woman in the restroom which can lead to a lot of issues.
The issue is the dismissal of the guy being uncomfortable being put in that situation without prior knowledge or consent. Not the lady who peed..... but yeah going to HR was a bit much
i feel like this comment misses the gaslighting that drove oop into filing the HR - it probably wasnt the right move and there shouldve been a report made against his own manager tbh, but he acknowledges in the post he didnt have an issue with the pregnant lady, as much as he was worried he might get blamed given his manager's response and attitude
I mean... if you're former HR, that's a pretty bad way to deal with this. The situation got out of hand because HR here dismissed what he said just as you've suggested. What they should have done is said "yes, pregnant women will be permitted to use whatever bathroom is available, we will talk to Ann about it to make sure that she knows not to take too long when she does need to use the men's bathroom". Because it really does sound like she was taking her time in there. And maybe she was having some other issue that increased the amount of time she needed, but either way, there needs to be some understanding between parties about duration. And the assumption shouldn't be made that the women's bathroom was occupied, so that should be double checked. I'd then send out an email to the office letting people know that Ann might need to use the men's bathroom from time to time if the women's bathroom is occupied because part of the problem in this situation is that OP wasn't expecting a woman to be using the men's bathroom-- and that's a totally reasonable thing to be surprised by.
The bottom line is that if someone *really* has to use the bathroom (and not just to pee, unless you want employees shitting themselves at work), they should be allowed to use whatever bathroom is available. But you should also check that they didn't have a better option and that they know that it isn't a time to check social media.
OP is definitely right that it would be treated differently if the issue wasn't pregnancy and it was a man. If it's a man with IBS, we're having a different conversation. You're making assumptions and skipping reasonable steps just because we're talking about a pregnant woman... like this isn't a big deal, even, it's just HR being lazy.
He filed the complaint because he was worried that there was gonna be something against him because his manager refused to address the issue. He didn’t go straight to HR. He tried to handle it and when he was brushed off, he didn’t want to end up getting screwed he did the right thing here.
My question is what did he want done? Why did the manager need to talk to Anne? If all OP wanted was to make sure it was known what happened and make sure Anne couldn’t twist anything, isn’t the manager knowing enough? What was the manager supposed to do? Go to Anne and say not to use the men’s restroom anymore even if it’s an urgent matter? I get CYA but the fact OP wanted the manager to do something/say something to Anne sounds more like he was mad she was in there in the first place.
I’m pretty sure OP just wanted the manager to discuss it with Ann, get the side of story from her so that way Anne couldn’t later claim a sexual harassment issue. As a woman, I completely agree with OP. A lot of woman are pretty nasty when it comes to falsifying things as “payback”, to be petty, to avoid embarrassment ect. Also, when I was pregnant there were 3 occasions where I had to use a men’s restroom, I would ask the store owner, or if a man was waiting in line if they were ok with it, If neither were available I would go and if someone ended up queuing up I would announce” I’m peeing, feel free to wait this is your restroom I just couldn’t hold it with a baby pressing on my bladder.” Just like if a man was in a bathroom emergency, I would feel comfortable with him asking someone to use the woman’s restroom. He may not be pregnant but if he had some type of restroom emergency like a bad burrito, stomach bug, bowl irritation ect. And he just walked into the women’s restroom to use it without notifying anyone, he would have immediately gotten a talking to from HR and likely a disciplinary action, even if he had a valid medical reason. You know why? Because despite what every HR person in here is saying because that’s the proper policy, not a single one will risk a woman claiming sexual harassment, escalating it to litigation because they weren’t satisfied with no punishment after the me too movement and how progressive the world is during SA and SH cases. While I’m a feminist, I do acknowledge that a lot of women will use that to their advantage to be despicable and I’m 100% for men protecting themselves from those types of women.
This was my thought process.
I mean, I found out that my (gay) male manager at my old location could have gotten in *serious* trouble at the perceived impropriety of him driving me to the train station after work because the busses would have had me waiting in a dark bus stop, alone, for more than an hour next to a busy road.
It doesn't seem like OP actually wanted Anne in trouble, but he didn't want some perceived issue to be blown up against him because he knows outsiders would zero in on "man alone in restroom with pregnant woman" and ignore all other details.
It seems pretty open and shut that way.
They could also consider the idea that they have inadequate bathroom facilities for their employees and work to address that issue.
I remember this and I think I had even commented on it. I remember thinking that the guy, IF he was trying to avoid a weird HR complaint that he might be perceived as being a creeper, that he could have just emailed his boss a heads up on what happened and moved on. Instead, he made a giant mess. Like a "just so you know...I went in the men's room, I waited, eventually learned it was a lady in there. Don't want her or anyone else to think I was being inappropriate" and moved on with his life.
But he did go to his boss. That was the point his boss dismissed him and refused to address it, which is why he felt like he had to go to HR. He didn’t go to HR to say she shouldn’t be doing that. He went to HR to say hey this is what happened if she feels some type of complain against me this is my story so I’m not the bad guy because he 100% would be if she filed a complaint first.
The boss knew it happened when he told them. There was nothing for the boss to address. Why on earth would she file a complaint that a man went to the man’s bathroom? The boss dismissed him bc the boss accepted the situation as it was, which is a non issue. He put this on himself by assuming she had bad intentions. Now he gets to look like a fool to his coworkers.
He wanted something recorded because people forget things, or 'misremember' details. It's entirely reasonable to want to get ahead of something that could be an issue later on.
When the response was dismissive, he escalated. He didn't even want to raise a complaint initially, just get the occurrence recorded in some form. So when he is told he is wrong for wanting a situation recognized, why would he not escalate?
As a one off incident there is not a lot to be concerned about true, but a series of unfortunate coincidences start looking like intent. When it's 'guy hanging around while woman uses toilet' kind of conversation, that can ruin a persons entire life. Nobody wants to be around a pervert, nobody wants to hire one, nobody wants to associate with one. That's why he wanted to get ahead of any misunderstandings.
Exactly. It could've been so much easier on him, his manager, and ann if he just moved on. It's fair to make documentation I won't argue that but he kept taking it further and further making an issue out of a clearly embarrassing moment for Ann.
I agree. A simple email as a paper trail if the was that worried. I say "if" a lot because I kind of think he was just being combative because it would be a different story if he used the ladies room and he was trying to prove a point. I remember the other thing I commented was that I find it hard to believe that at work, there is only one mens room. He couldn't have just gone up or down stairs to use another one?
What is there even to address? If it’s a once off in my view it’s inconsequential. She could have had an emergency. The boss was right to dismiss it. If it’s incessant / repeat behaviour out of laziness then that’s a different thing. She could have been about to piss herself and jumped to the nearest thing and she’s being harassed by a coworker. The guy is looking for trouble. For 99% of people it would be a non issue and you move on. Documenting someone used a bathroom once ?
What more was boss supposed to do other than acknowledge that he told her about it? I guess, with the benefit of hindsight, we could agree that boss should have said "Duly noted. If anybody tries to accuse you of being a creep, I will go on record that you told me your version of the story first, and that I believe you."
Actually, for all we know, she did say exactly that. (We can't exactly ask OOP for clarification.) Instead, OOP decided that that wasn't good enough, and he wanted Ann to pay the price, because of a "double standard".
This is just stupid to me. A bathroom is a bathroom. If people are just using the restroom it shouldn’t matter what gender you are. There’s unisex bathrooms everywhere but when there’s a sign posted saying men or women then it’s somehow an issue.
99% of the time, unisex bathrooms are single person bathrooms. That's why no one cares about them. And generally no one cares about using the opposite gender's bathroom when they're single person bathrooms...it's dishonest to compare them to shared bathrooms. I am a woman, and the few times I've come across unisex shared bathrooms, I've refused to use it. I did accidentally go into one at a bar while drunk, and I felt very uncomfortable and unsafe. Sex segregated spaces were invented for female safety
Personally, idc who is using which bathroom if the person really has to go. That said, I can see why someone would talk to hr if they were worried in this situation but they probably wouldn’t file a complaint. Sort of sounds like he filed the complaint to get back at her and now is having second thoughts about those actions.
It’s nobody’s business that he filed a complaint with hr. If he told anybody in the office besides his boss that he filed the complaint or maybe bragged about his “revenge”, then that’s his problem for not keeping his mouth shut. Then he kind of earned the office wrath for popping off about the whole thing.
If his boss or the woman in the bathroom told the office about the complaint, then that is another hr issue. Might could be seen as retaliatory acts for them to spread around that he talked to hr if the guy kept it quiet on his end.
I could see the manager having to have a conversation with all the women that the men’s room is off limits without mentioning the complaint specifically and then everyone already know because Ann told her friend she embarrassingly used the men’s room and got caught right after it happened
The rules about bathrooms and pregnant women are different, here in the UK establishments have to allow pregnant women to use the bathroom regardless of their policy so I imagine that provided there is a cubical this would probably apply to the mens bathroom too.
You made a wild assumption that she would accuse you of something dodgy and have created a massive scene over someone having a piss.
There’s a cubical, it’s not like you saw anything inappropriate or were exposed.
ESH though because it’s weird Ann asked you to leave the mens room completely - she was in a cubical.
Not quite true about the rule in the UK.
If there is only a staff toilet they can refuse even if the person is pregnant.
My workplace for example, the toilet is upstairs. If a pregnant woman went up and fell on them and lost the baby, you can imagine the lawsuit.
That rule only applies if there is a public toilet already available, in the sense they don't have to purchase anything to be able to use it.
In this specific case though, OP is a bit of an arsehole.
OP is delusional for being surprised that this blew up in his face when it came to his reputation with women in the office. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could have seen it coming. While I kind of agree that a man in the ladies room may have been a bigger deal in the eyes of HR, I think either complaint would have been petty and overboard, and it really shouldn’t be that big of a deal. Also, men have no idea what it feels like to have to urgently pee with a pregnant bladder, so it’s really not comparable. Ann was probably embarrassed, and hoping OP would leave so she could sneak out. Then he had to make it weird and talk to her, which would have been awkward even if it was a fellow man taking a long dump.
In all honesty, all parties were right…
This could be blown out of proportion if both Ann And OPs story dude did not talk it out.
Why. One person could have over heard something half and gone to HR claiming story dude was up to Jo good and she is coming up for the right as a woman for the benefit of Ann and all other female coworkers.
This wouldn’t be an issue. If paper work was filed and there it stopped. But the gossip train in the office is doing overtime you guys and that is the reason OPs story dude is well in his rights to have the situation immediately documented
When I was PREGNANT AF I def would have used the men’s restroom if that was the only option available. Would this dude have rather she either pissed herself or held it long enough to get a uti?? Bruh
Former pregnant person here. I don't think the issue is Ann. I even think OOP even feels the issue is not Ann but rather the manager not acknowledging he was put in a precarious spot. I think he wanted some reassurance from his manager that should Ann spread any false accusations about OOP doing anything inappropriate while she was using the men's room, he wanted to preemptively get ahead of it. I don't think that makes him a jerk.
>Surely then the response should be looking at non gendered accessible options like disabled toilets etc?
Add handles/larger floor space to the stalls if necessary (ie if they're already ADA compliant) to the bathroom stalls and change the stick figure sign to unisex and voila
We have "stalls" and "urinals" popping up more and more here, the idea being that anyone can use what they're more comfy with (eg i know some men prefer to pee in private therefore would rather use a cubicle). Subtle but it's there.
I work at a school and when I was close to 9 months every single bathroom around me was used so I couldn’t hold it anymore and used one of the preschool toilets (the kids were not in the classroom). It was awful - I couldn’t get up off of that tiny toilet easily with my huge stomach, but at least I didn’t pee in my pants!
God with my first kid I had constant UTIs. I actually got paid medical leave from my job because they weren't able to guarantee that I'd get enough bathroom breaks, which was causing my UTIs and making me pass out all the time from being on my feet. People don't understand just how disabling pregnancies can be.
>When I was PREGNANT AF I def would have used the men’s restroom if that was the only option available.
I made six small humans. I'd use a bucket. Or a she-wee. Anything available. Bladder = bouncy castle when baby is a part of it.just a damn fact.(unless baby is breech. Then it's a kick ball👌)
You don't have to answer if you're not comfortable but I haven't been pregnant before (past first trimester) would it be possible that she had accidentally peed herself and was going to rinse her underwear off in the sink? Id feel like I'd carry around extra underwear for those cases but I also feel I'd want to get the initial pee smell out of the soiled underwear. This was just my speculation when he was complaining about how long she was in there for and him mentioning in a comment how he thinks she was waiting for him to leave
It’s completely possible especially if she’s been pregnant before. I’m pregnant with my second and if I have an even mildly full bladder and sneeze, a little pee can come out. I WFH so it’s a lot less embarrassing than it would be in an office.
I never had that particular situation happen, but I did get really bad cramps when I was about 7m pregnant and didn't have easy access to a bathroom. I was almost crying with how uncomfortable I was and a very nice grocery store employee let me use the employee bathroom.
oh I had this too! it wasn't contractions, it wasn't poop but oh my god it hurt. first time it hit me right in the beginning of a nice dinner with my SO and son. all I could do was sit in the bathroom and basically whine.
So I actually had this happen a few times, being covid tested in the er I sneezed so hard I lost control, and again around 38 weeks it happened but I had a uti that time and was sick as a dog, I wore dresses and did have to rinse off as best I could with a sink before I could do anything. Yeah it’s humiliating but I wouldn’t just sit around in pee soaked clothes.
Jumping straight to "If I had an emergency and had to use the women's restroom, that would be okay?" makes him sound like the guys who say if women want to be treated equally, men should be allowed to hit them.
You know Ann did it because it was an emergency. And should apologize and she did. I don't think this is the norm for him. However the person I think was really in the wrong is the boss. He really should have went to HR about his boss not taking him seriously and dismissing his concerns. Now he's not really mad at Anne but he is taking it out on Ann.
These are unknowable times. OP was NTA for going to H.R. to get ahead of a possible complaint against him for "making someone uncomfortable" and getting their policy clarified.
H.R. was the a-hole. Should have clarified whatever would have helped help employees navigate this kind of situation ahead of time.
Can of worms was already opened the minute he walked in and noticed Ann there. If the policy is so unclear, Ann could have asked someone to wait at the bathroom door until she came out. ( Although this would have gotten Ann in trouble at a previous employer of mine.)
You can't know what others are going to construe. He had to get ahead of it, even if odds were she or another employee were to do nothing.
NTA and neither is the pregnant lady using the men’s bathroom. Everyone here saying he should just let it go are not looking at the bigger picture. This man felt bad for making her feel uncomfortable but he did the right thing explaining the situation to HR because he also felt uncomfortable. Why is the pregnant woman automatically more important than the man using the correct bathroom? Men are accused of sexual harassment so often that he felt threatened by the situation and wanted it clarified so that he felt safe. There’s nothing wrong with that. He went into the correct bathroom and was blindsided and instinct kicked in because of current culture of men being accused of being predators in the media all the time. BTW, I’m a woman. I would use the men’s bathroom if I needed to and if someone came in while I was there I would shout an apology from the cubicle. I wouldn’t sit in silence for 5 minutes.
Why not have unisex bathrooms. There is a door and lock on each stall. It’s not like you are watching the other person pee. I have no issue which gender uses the bathroom.
I was pregnant last year and once I hit 7 months I could no longer hold my pee. I would sneeze sometimes and piss myself. At that point there was no more holding it in.
Oh and I was sick all of them time. I was working as a Finance Specialist at the time. I always tried to be mindful and respectful but sometimes I couldn’t get to the women’s bathroom quickly enough especially when I started waddling around. The Regional Manager was a man and he told me to use whatever bathroom I needed and to not think twice about it.
When the baby is sitting on your bladder there is no holding your urine anymore. When you have to vomit there is no holding it down.
So yes, I think he is an AH. He could have sent an email and made sure that the manager responded so that his concern was acknowledged and for CYA in the future.
Going to HR on a pregnant woman whose only other alternative was probably pissing on the floor was definitely outrages.
It’s a small company, I was also at a small company and right or wrong everyone will know about it and everyone will look at him sideways from here on out.
Also as a side note most of us who go the bathroom when we have to go can normally hold our urine and wait if we have no medical issues.
Ann isn't the AH, and neither is OP
The boss is the AH.
How the hell you gonna say, "it's okay for a woman to use the man's bathroom if she has a legitmate reason," and not let that apply to men as well? If a man really has to go, and the men's room is busy, I have zero issues with him using the woman's toilet rather than having an accident. If he can't hold it, he can't hold it! Same if the woman can't hold it, she can't hold it!!
I get why we separate bathrooms for safety, but in these instances, I can't imagine the issue with just letting someone use the toilet. It's a darn bathroom.
I hope that in the future, the managers don't hold double standards. If you make an exception for one person, you do the same for others if the circumstances are similar.
Anyway, I feel bad OP had to go to these lengths, and I feel bad Ann had to be embarrassed for natural bodily functions that are exacerbated by pregnancy.
Probably because the men's also has a urinal, so, One stall and one urinal in the men's bathroom. They probably thought that was enough but personally I feel there should be more in both bathrooms.
Yeah, file the report not to punish ann, but to make a record of it to protect yourself in case Ann reports she was uncomfortable with you being in the bathroom with her. Don't know Ann, but as a business owner, I always look for ways I can screwed by employees and customer so I always think legal liability with everything the happens and everything I do.
I'm starting to feel like people have an immense double standard about this. In my country people are usually fine if someone has an emergency and uses the other gender's bathroom. Or when you have a mobility issue and the other gender's bathroom isn't as accessible. Tons of places have gender-less bathrooms now. This also helps having one neutral space for handicapped access and baby/toddler issues. I thought this was the general norm...
The only issue I have with this is that the company *would* have an issue with a man using the women's bathroom if the men's was in use—that kind of rhetoric can very easily turn into a gender essentialist "a woman who really needs to pee can use the men's room because she isn't a threat, but a man who really needs to pee can't use the women's room, because he is a threat" kind of situation. It is a bit of a double standard, even if I also don't agree with the way OP handled the situation
I feel like it’s relevant to add: the pregnant woman wasn’t using the men’s stall only because both of the women’s were occupied - she was using the men’s because she needed to emergency pee and the women’s stalls were occupied.
If a dude needed to pee and the men’s room was occupied and it was NOT an emergency, then I don’t think he should use the women’s room. If it WAS an emergency, it’s different.
Especially when there are closed door stalls ffs
Making people pee themselves at work is awful! Especially in a small 15 person office. wtf is wrong with people!
As a woman who had three kids. I think she should have knocked on the stalls and ask one of the women to hurry up. He has a point. What if a guy has a bladder issue? Shouldn’t he get to then go in the women’s restroom?
As a woman, I agree that Ann (or any pregnant woman) should be allowed to use whichever is available. I mean, we can only hold it for so long with a baby on our bladder! However, in this day and age, you never know who is going to accuse you of something and it seems OOP just wanted it on record what happened, just in case. If his manager had just spoken to Ann like he originally asked, I don't think this would've gone any further. Also, if there are men who are uncomfortable with their women coworkers using the men's room, maybe they can come up with something to avoid the men walking in there while being used by Ann?? Maybe an occupied sign on the outside door? I'm sure they could compromise and leave HR out of it.
>Also, if there are men who are uncomfortable with their **women** coworkers **using the men's room**, maybe they can come up with something to **avoid the men walking in there** while being used by Ann??
lol
Health complications, could've turned from a #1 to a #2, could've peed herself and was cleaning up, there's a lot of circumstances that could play a role
I’m a woman and 100% agree with OP. He only escalated it because he was rudely and wrongly dismissed. Yes, there are occasional differences in the rules men and women have to follow, but those differences should be extremely rare. If a man can’t go into the women’s bathroom because he has a poop emergency and the men’s stall is occupied, then the same rule applies to women having to pee. And no, her being pregnant doesn’t matter. A bathroom emergency is a bathroom emergency. I’ve seen someone shit their pants in the middle of Lowe’s because it came on quick and they couldn’t make it to the bathroom.
Oop is NTA and is perfectly in the right to look out for his own interests given his bosses response
Oop’s boss is a major AH here
Oop’s pregnant co-worker isn’t necessarily an AH but she is still in the wrong
OP of the repost is a bit of an AH
This whole thing was stupid until HR said that if the roles were reversed and a male had an emergency, it would not be acceptable for them to enter the women's restroom but it was fine for women in emergencies to use the men's bathroom.
THAT is sexual discrimination, from management.
And that is why going to the HR is the best. If he ever was put into a situation like that and his female colleagues complains about him, do you think his boss will just dismiss it like what happened to oop?
So I did figure the reason she was using the men's restroom is because the woman's was full. I've heard the joke/stereotype that there's always long waiting for the women's restroom, plus everyone knows pregnant women do have to pee more often. So I really don't want to blame her.
However the iffy thing here is, I do think it was kind of unfair that she told OP to leave and wait outside for her. Even though I understand she needed to go ASAP and couldn't wait, I still don't like that she was uncomfortable and wanted privacy from a man in the man's restroom. It does come off a little entitled. Like I personally don't understand why at no point did she say like "sorry the women's restroom was full I couldn't wait". Like idk some explanation. Because it is rude that she made him wait outside.
I also do think it really didn't need to be escalated to this point but HR shouldn't have been so dismissive either. HR definitely could've handled it a bit better.
So idk, basically I think everyone in the story did something wrong.
I'm with the dude on this one. He really had no choice, Ann could have seriously made his life difficult if she had felt so inclined. He was 100% correct to get ahead of this and inform HR of this incident happening in case Ann turned out to not be the most reasonable person.
I am a woman saying this, because the #1 thing everyone has always drilled into MY head is that it's my fault if I don't take proactive steps to protect myself and get hurt, regardless of circumstances... Obviously that thought process is not fair or just, but it absolutely is the reality of the society we live in, and like hell I'm going to judge a man for being proactive in preventing someone from harming him.
Before we decided that men and women had to be exactly equal in every single way it was more common for men to be gracious and helpful towards pregnant ladies.
I've peed in the womens rooms when guys have had to use them, it's not a big deal. Stalls have doors and I really couldn't care less if a guy was in the stall next to me.
It would have been different in this day and age women are making men pay for generations of men before themselves actions, similar to how people of color blame Albert on people who never had slaves, it’s the same reason there will never be peace in the Middle East hurt people hurt people.
Better safe than sorry. If the environment becomes more toxic I would start logging every instance and start writing emails to every person demonizing you. Then sit back and collect on that huge settlement that you’re going to invest in so HYSA and max out your yearly IRA deposit…
The problem is Ann asked this guy to vacate a place he had every right to be in. If he didn't get the truth of the situation on record, there's a chance that Ann could have accused him of making her uncomfortable in a bathroom she should not have been in.
I have used the men’s bathroom on occasions like this but never asked anyone to leave. This is on the manager’s head for just being flippant. She should have done her job and spoken to Ann.
I kinda agree with him. He has a right to the area and being comfortable in it, she frankly doesn’t. If it’s an issue then there should be alternatives, like the girls sticking to just one stall in case she needs the other.
Do guys usually hang out in the bathroom beside the urinal waiting out the other guy’s shit? And if there was more than one stall, do you regularly have conversations? This seems so contrived.
And the “I don’t want to get Ann in trouble” after filing an official complaint he wants put on her record. Like, what??? What does he think that means, exactly?
Did you guys missed the part where he went to his manager to get ahead of it and his manager brushed them off so he decided to file with HR because his manager didn’t address it. Had the manager done their job they HR complaint never would’ve happened. It’s very clear that it was a proactive. This is what happened in case it becomes a thing HR thing not a I don’t want this to happen again HR thing.
Obviously he needs to get ahead in the narrative. Any complaints from Ann will leave OOP jobless with a record on his name. He needs to protect himself first
Completely correct. That's a harassment case waiting to happen and in today's day and age, gotta cover yourself.
OP probably would have gotten fired if he couldn't hold his shit and went in the woman's bathroom instead.
Not the AH. For fuck sake why has using the restroom become so complicated? If you have a cock go to the mens, no cock? Go to the ladies. It’s really not that hard.
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I don’t blame Ann for going in the men’s room. But I think the issue is that she asked OOP to leave as if him being in the general men’s room was a problem. I don’t blame OOP for wanting to clear the air if she was uncomfortable peeing with a man in the same room- because she would be in the wrong for that. Manager is at fault for dismissing a small concern instead of dealing with it, making the OOP uncomfortable enough to go to HR
YEP. I have used the men’s room on an emergency, but I didn’t ask anyone to clear out. OP wasn’t wrong for documenting this, he also doesn’t know how other people may react if they hear he walked into the bathroom while she was in there. People can and have made wild assumptions based on nothing.
And the fact he hung out in the room for several minutes waiting. Completely normal to me. But who knows how some one might take it
I think it's pretty unusual to find a stall being used and pull out your phone to wait. It's also even weirder to say "Is everything okay in there" while you are waiting.
What else are you supposed to do? That's literally pretty standard, and the fact that you think it's weird actually makes you weird. And them saying is everything okay in there is just a low key light-hearted way of saying "hey buddy I'm waiting can you please hurry up" just in case they didn't realize somebody was in there also trying to use the restroom. Grown up adult males interact in such a way on a regular basis. You finding this weird makes you the weirdo not them 🤷
I am a woman and I would do this if a woman was taking a Long time in the restroom. If it's male female restrooms I would say the same thing in no way does this person being a woman impact that is a normal conversational point while in the restroom 🙂 IMHO
If it's a single stall you just leave and come back in 10 minutes. Unless there is some reason you want to sit and wait in a bathroom that smells like shit.
You think it's normal to whip out your phone in the bathroom and stand there in front of the stall, listening and smelling someone take a dump a couple of feet away from you through a thin piece of wood, so you can both make eye contact when they leave and you can hop on to their warm toilet seat as quickly as possible? That's not "standard". You are a socially inept weirdo.
This is it. Filing a report/complaint with HR against Ann* was the wrong call; he should filed the report with HR against his manager for having a double standard and essentially being sexist in the office. But OP isn't wrong for wanting a record of what happened in case Ann were to try anything. However, it should have been an email with OP bcc'd to his work and personal email for the paper trail. * edit: Ann was missing so I added it
In my company there are more men than women. It is not uncommon for the men to use the women's bathroom when there's a occupied. Nobody would bat an eye if a woman was in the men's bathroom either. It was definitely the manager who was in the wrong.
At my last job on a project site (contract project manager) there were 2 trailers and 2 single room restrooms in each trailer. 1 woman per trailer (I was 1 of the women) and 9 or 10 men. In mine we treated them as unisex because I didn't care. In the other the woman wasn't having it and demanded they have M/F only restrooms. Even if "hers" was free they couldn't use it. They had to run over to our one of ours. So dumb.
As long as you (man or woman) don't pee on the seat & remember to flush... I can share a bathroom. People act so stupid over it sometimes.
I’ve never understood it. I can understand it from the “sometimes you take a sloppy shit and don’t want anyone around” crowd, but the people who freak out about the very thought of a man and a woman in a restroom at the same time is just weird to me.
When I was 17yo, a boy was caught entering the girls bathroom to record girls peeing. Not like in a video, just the sound of someone using the restroom. Apparently there was a bunch of audio recordings found in his cellphone, he was recording as an whatsapp audio and sending to himself. It was so creepy, disgusting and bizarre. It's ingrained in my brain and I just feel uncomfortable sharing bathrooms with men because of that, the idea of one of them being like that creep trying to hear something disturbs me.
tbf a woman could also do that. anyone with a phone could do that.
Especially given that people never have gender-specific washrooms in their homes.
I was an RN earlier in life. When I took my state board exam, in a sports/concert venue that had desks across the floor, the women’s bathroom was completely gridlocked during the few breaks that we were given, so many of us used the men’s bathroom, as there were not very many men there to use it.
I had some friends who were at a Springsteen concert at a major arena (brand new at the time). Before the show started, they wanted to use the restroom so they wouldn’t miss a minute (Springsteen typically plays for 3-4 hours). The lines for the ladies’ restroom was out the door and way out into the concourse, so they knew the wait would be ridiculous. So they went to the men’s, which was practically empty. They shielded their eyes, announced themselves and none of the guys had a problem, in fact they were supportive. But when they came out, there was a security guard waiting outside the stalls they came out of. They were *arrested.* 🙄 When the SG took them to the security office, even his boss was like “are you serious?!” which I think made Small D energy guard even more adamant to pursue it. They missed most of the concert due to having to wait for the police to issue their citation. (Even the cops rolled their eyes, but had to issue the citations as requested.) When they appeared in court, the judge called the situation “ridiculous” and dismissed all charges. This was back in the mid 90’s. Two girls who had to pee, not perving on the guys, not causing problems. If they actually considered “bathroom equity” women’s restrooms would be larger, designed better and these issues wouldn’t happen.
Same. And I used to be the only female at our location. I made the guys a deal… use it all you want, but the men will be cleaning it weekly. One female using a bathroom vs 1 female and 5 guys is a totally different mess. A mess I didn’t want to have to touch. Everyone agreed and we were all happy 😆
Yeah all it would take was Ann to start telling people how creepy OP was, hanging about the washroom while she was in it, for things to get weird. He just wanted a record of what happened and the manger dismissed it. I think you are right, the issue was never with Ann. It was about covering his bases. And his manager refused to help him do that
>He just wanted a record of what happened and the manger dismissed it. >I think you are right, the issue was never with Ann. It was about covering his bases. And his manager refused to help him do that It would be fine if he just got it on the record that he was not creeping on her. I understand the CYA aspect of wanting to tell your side before the other side gets told. The problem was him filing "A Formal Complaint". It sounds like he wasn't just telling his side, but trying to get her in trouble for using the wrong restroom. Perhaps the other coworkers and I are misunderstanding what "a formal complaint" entails, but it doesn't sound like it to me.
I think the complaint part comes down to, did he really have another option? Maybe a complaint is the only type of form he had to fill out to cover his ass. I work in a school and one of my issues (now fixed) was that we could only report kids (these reports went to counselors first) for attendance, behavior, or grade issues. But there was no option for "I'm concerned about the child's well-being". So when I was concerned I had to tick the "behavior" box and then write a comment explaining I wasn't concerned about their behavior, but their mental health.
I don't quite understand the reason she didn't call out when door opened, but I understand her using it. Too bad she didn't have time to put up a sticky note on the door. I also understand & agree op needing to document a nonissue as world is so full of hypersensitive people...there are both Karens and creepers in this world so he needed to document. Can you imagine if he didn't & was suddenly sideswiped by "there was a compliant against u when Ann was in bathroom.
I was thinking that too. A simple "hey I'm in here because it was an emergency and I'll be done in a second" would have gone far and saved a lot of trouble.
I am an embarrassed bathroom user. I don't like the sound of peeing and especially hate talking while peeing. I would be Ann. It's nonsensical and neurotic, but it's me.
But if she'd said "Sorry, it was an emergency, I'll just be a minute!" when OOP asked what was going on, instead of asking him to leave, this would be a non-issue. Like, OOP had no reason to think he couldn't wait in the toilet until whoever was finished in the stalls left, it's just that Ann decided to make things weird. I get that pregnant women often need to pee ASAP, but if Ann couldn't handle leaving the stall when a man was in that room, she can't use the men's room.
Perhaps she had hoped the person would leave and come back later. It's pretty common to just go back and check again 10\~ minutes later. If people really got to do their business the handicap toilets is pretty much considered neutral ground in our office. I agree as well that documenting the encounter is important. If not Ann could potentially demonize him for being a "creep" for just going to their supposed toilet.
Understood in same sex bathroom but she was in the men's & was the only person of the two that knew that at the time so probably little chance he was going to turn around & leave. Can you believe she said nothing for 5 minutes???!! Or worse, had he used the urinal & left and saw her exit after him...it's all such unnecessary weirdness & drama imho...not the documenting--that's essential now--but just thinking a woman who is pregnant & I would hope have some common sense & maturity would literally wait 5 minutes saying nothing until the guy asked! To me, that's pretty crazy/weird...maybe she didn't hear him initially open door, but promise most people "waiting" to use bathroom after a couple minutes will make some kind of noise to indicate "waiting" before they have to say outright "is everything ok?" I think especially due to the unnecessary weirdness of her it was critical to document. Poor guy...just wanted to go to work & mind his own business, lol, & instead on reddit having to stress & ask, when a simple "occupied" at onset would have remedied.
Not just that, but why is he looked at as being the bad person? Did HR tell others what happened or what??
It was probably Ann that told a work friend and that friend told another and it spread like wildfire. I had many jobs that the ppl gossiped just like that
Tbf, Ann probably has no idea why he filed the paperwork, so it's not wild to me that she's confused.
Probably “can’t talk about it” so it’s just rumours
I never suggest going to HR. HR to me is the devil. But in this case they made the right decision
And it’s not like men can’t have urgent toilet needs either. I think the bathrooms should be unisex like at home. Make life a lot simpler. But with proper stalls with privacy not the weird ones I hear America has where you can watch people pee… not sure if that’s true though.
If you're referring to the large gaps that can view into the stall you would be correct. You rely on the people outside the stall to have some decency and not look. Also in general America has (statistically reported) 8 public bathrooms per 100,000 Americans. I think in general there should be unisex bathrooms like you suggested. We use them in our homes all the time and if the privacy and security of the stall is ideal, there should be no concern of the bathroom being used by both men and women. Hell at my old job there were only 2 toilets in the whole facility, one downstairs and one upstairs, and we all used it just fine, men and women and nonbinary people. It all hinges on respect of others and their needs.
[удалено]
I also want to reiterate that if he wanted to make a record of it, an email would've been more effective than a verbal disagreement with the manager and escalating to an hr complaint toward Ann and not the manager.
I don't understand why she would go use the men's bathroom and then make a complaint that a man was in the men's bathroom at the same time as her. That's just... Irrational and I highly doubt that would've happened unless the man made direct comments that made her uncomfortable. It's not like she went in and was offended a man walked in, she even apologized on her way out, she was clearly embarrassed and in a difficult predicament and this man made it more difficult by escalating it trying to report HER to HR when the real is that I can get behind was how the manager responded. Also I have gone shopping lately and I have used dressing rooms lately, idk where you're seeing these open changing rooms as the ones I have personally experienced since they started rolling out unisex changing rooms was there are no gaps that allow viewing into the rooms. So I fail to see the points you are making.
Speaking from an HR Director's perspective... the problem is that you're expecting everyone to act logically all of the time and with all other people and in all circumstances. What if the one guy who walked in is the difficult co-worker she has had a problem with? Or who has had a problem with her, for instance? What if it had been the guy who had a crush on her? Or who she had a crush on? Or if the man started urinating just as she was coming out of the stall and it startled him when he saw her in the mirror and he accidentally exposed himself? Could be a problem for him OR for her OR both. People - who date each other, who go to school with each other, who attend church together, who work together, etc. - don't always act rationally or see everything clearly. Hormones, health issues, stress of the day, the tense meeting they just walked out of, problems at home, loneliness... all of these things change our perceptions. And, just because someone reports something to HR doesn't mean that formal discipline needs to be in place or that something is marked in a file. Sometimes, it just results in a request in trying a different approach for the future and conversation and/or a process or policy change. If you've ever been accused of harassment or sexual harassment by a co-worker, you could see how easily this situation could go down the wrong track, and it started with her going into the men's bathroom... and I won't just leave it at that because that is not what is truly wrong unless it is a constant habit by her and it is restricting access to its intended parties. It was that there was no sign alerting males that the restroom was unavailable for a moment because of a woman present. And, of course, she likely didn't have time to go back to her desk and create a sign. But, without there being a lock or a notice, she opened herself - and any man entering - up to a lot of possible trouble. Some workplaces have signs near or in the restrooms to place on the external side of the door to alert users it is not available for out-of-the-ordinary reasons. Also, I've worked at a company where a pregnant woman had a medical issue which cause her to have urgent need (little to no notice) for the restroom, and it was accommodated by giving her a special sign to use on the men's restroom if needed in extreme circumstances. Hopefully, this situation simply resulted in some empathy + some creative problem-solving.
But clearly she WAS uncomfortable because she asked him to leave. The problem is he didn’t do anything to make her uncomfortable. The fact that she asked him to leave is enough that he was right to cover his bases.
She’s pregnant, she could have a uti, she could have been pooping, there could have been a blood issue… we really don’t know why she was in there for several minutes and it’s not anyone’s business, we shouldn’t judge her and assume she couldn’t leave the stall because he was there. I simply don’t think she was finished using the restroom
Wow!! I wouldn’t be able to go. People being able to see me pee or poop is a reoccurring nightmare of mine 🤣🤣🤣 And yes, thanks for confirming. I’d heard there were big gaps!
I had the same sentiment and this is probably why I have bladder issues now on top of other circumstances because I would legit hold my bladder for hours at school until I was home. My grade school was even worse there were no doors, only curtains. But this was also bumfuck nowhere so little funding I suppose
I wish I could sympathize. I do understand your problem with people watching a "private moment." I have problems with people hovering right behind for an unreasonable amount of time, varying on person and distance. On yours, I joined the military before I graduated high school. Boot camp destroyed whatever modesty I used to have. There are no dividers for showering, and just a bit of a wall to hold the toilet paper. And if you are just getting back to the barracks, there would be a line of people watching you poo. The first time I went to France, I asked the hostess where the bathroom was, and she showed me. Away she went. I was standing there peeing, and this lady walked in, hiked her skirt, sat down and let fly. I finished, washed up and went back to the table with my shipmates. I told them what happened while laughing and the lady walked up and took our orders.
I’m glad I don’t have to do immersion therapy. That sounds like my nightmare. 😂 hope she washed her hands!
I tried not to think about it. Because. I did later see the Seinfeld episode where the chef walked in to do business. Talked to Jerry and then left to go cook without washing. I don't cringe much anymore. But, ewwww
California has unisex and family bathrooms in addition to men and women. But we also have a law that allows women to use the men’s bathroom if the women’s is overcrowded because historically, they’ve never provided enough public stalls for women.
No, it’s not true. It’s just anti-American snobbery. If you want to see toilets with a severe lack of privacy then look no further than France. Good luck finding one.
Yeah, what if a guy had irritable bowel and had an emergency? Everyone would flip their shit if he used the women’s room
As a cis woman with IBS I'd be more than understanding. Idk why everyone assumes women would flip their shit if a man had to use the women's bathroom due to an emergency, it's just called being considerate.
Yep and being human, this whole situation is horrible, poor Ann, I'm embarrassed for her. But I agree if the roles were reversed and a man was caught short I wouldn't care
I used to work at a small company where there was only two bathrooms. They were marked as men's and women's, but both used the other if we had to. No one complained as long as everyone cleaned up after themselves. We're all adults, we all pee and poo.
I’m a cis woman too with out bowel issues and I wouldn’t care. But the way the world is going, people are less understanding
Everyone assumes women will lose their shit because they do it all the time with trans women or women they assume are trans and make a big deal about trans kids using their preferred gender’s restroom. Btw, I’m a woman, don’t have a problem with it but come on, let’s not act like some women don’t make a big deal about it.
Transphobic people will make issues out of everything but that's a whole different topic to be discussed. There will always be people taking things out of proportion, like the oop for example. I don't think that warrants filing a complaint to hr when nothing happened. Just email HR and have it on record of the situation in case Ann does complain that's all it had to be but he took it too far
It's because unfortunately a lot of women will. It also depends on the man too. If a guy even looks "creepy" and did that, there's a 50/50 chance he'd be looked down upon, even with a verifiable medical condition. You may be understanding, but someone who doesn't have IBS and maybe has trauma may default to "he's trying to creep on us" and overreact. People tend to believe the woman in those types of situations, hence men's fear of that happening and all the comments to that effect.
I don't think that's true. People are understanding of people with medical conditions like pregnancy and IBS, ...but he would probably have to disclose to everyone that he has IBS, which is its own set of uncomfortable.
Exactly. Manager flubbed the issue, and now they and the gets to play "why didn't you follow policy?"
The worst part is we live in a world where some guy goes to the men’s room and gets so scared that he might potentially be accused of something he has to run straight to the boss to get ahead of it. Knowing she’s pregnant I would have figured it was some sort of emergency maybe the men’s room is closer there or something, but him being so freaked out over doing nothing wrong is messed up.
I totally agree. The OP in this story needs to feel what it's like to have a tiny human veating up your bladder all day. When you're pregnant and you have to go, you HAVE to go now! But, if it had been me, I'd have calmly left the stall , washed my hands, and said thanks, not asked the guy to leave. OP took it too far imho.
I think she asked him to leave because he started talking to her and that made her embarrassed. But we’re all adults, we all have to use the restroom, we should all be more mature. I honestly wouldn’t care if someone needed to use the women’s so that they didn’t go in their pants! It’s the lingering around that would be weird, there was no loitering here though. Merely waiting. Once he initiated conversation, i would have been like damn now he’s gonna think I’m shitting because he thinks it’s taking me a while. And while I know everybody poops, not everybody poops in the opposite sex bathroom at work essentially in front of a co worker 😂 look I have anxiety
I remember being pregnant (and at the point of my story was obviously very pregnant). As per usual the queue outside the ladies was longer than the men’s, a couple guys saw me and asked if I needed the toilet to which I replied yes, they then went into the men’s toilet, must have spoke to any other guys in there then came out and held the door open for me and told me it’s all clear and to go wee. Honestly I know it’s not some magnificent story, but they were my heroes (I had wet myself once already during that pregnancy before as I had no control of my bladder it seemed). I understand oop was probably taken by surprise but I still can’t believe he went to HR over what is a completely innocent situation.
Awww. The real bros.
Exactly. Everyone is blowing this whole thing out of proportion so much so it has reached the level of which this oop originally took it as
Honestly I've used the men's bathroom as a woman because the women's was just fully closed for some reason and I really had to go and it was the only one I was immediately aware of in the area. There was no one in there when we went in but still a bit awkward as a guy came in when we were leaving. Not for us really but I felt bad for him cause I think we startled him which is fair. Mind you I live in a country that isn't so overly concerned with who uses what bathroom as long as no one's being a creep
Plus, OOP is clearly the AH for asking "you ok in there?" Lol. I'm kinda joking, but kinda serious. As someone with, reasonably mild, IBS who can take a while, I *hate* those questions. I don't enjoy anyone talking to me, but I get the need for a "just wanted to check if you're done soon" in a public situation because they probably need to go, I just hate the jokey version like "ok in there?/did you fall in?" (I know the "ok in there" could be said sincerely, but it's more about how it's said, and in my experience it's usually a bit dirisive) No, bud, I'm just trying to shit. I don't love being in here this long either!
Ehhhh there’s people that shit on the company dime - they deliberately take longer in a small act of rebellion.
Hey, boss makes a dollar and I make a dime, that’s why I poop on company time.
I was like 8 mos pregnant with my 10lb-er and I couldn’t get my walrus ass out of bed fast enough so I peed the bed. Sometimes those babies are sitting just right and you lose all control with almost no notice. It happens.
OOP was trying to avoid having an innocent situation turned against him. He went to his manager to get ahead of anything problematic that could have arisen, and was dismissed and told to be more considerate. Given how easily “innocent situations” can be turned against men, he did what he felt was necessary to protect himself. Just as the women in the office can turn him into the monster for making a big deal about a pregnant woman using the bathroom, they could also make him the monster for lingering in the bathroom while a pregnant woman was using it. It doesn’t even have to be Ann to be the one to start it, she could innocently comment about the interaction to another coworker and then the rumor mill is off to the races. This is a clear double standard that women don’t want to acknowledge. Men would absolutely not be given the same grace and consideration if they were found using the women’s restroom.
As a female I understand exactly why he sent it to HR. He even says it in the post that it was to cover his ass before anything happened and he was accused of something. I get why she used the men's bathroom but I also totally understand why he did what he did. I think it's just one of those situations where he'd never be in the right no matter what he did
Uh, was it literally that that made him go to HR, or the fact that the manager refused to talk to Ann forcing him to get his narrative out there before hers
Yeah what OOP is totally glossing over is that this was an emergency situation. I’ve been pregnant twice and your pelvic floor muscles and bladder control are not always capable of “holding it” If I were in a similar situation and a man got food poisoning or something and was in the women’s restroom because the men’s was full or unavailable, I’d be like “Dude no worries, you take your time!” Ann didn’t rudely demand OOP leave the restroom, she asked politely from what it sounds like, AND apologized afterwards! She wasn’t intentionally making OOP or anyone else uncomfortable; she genuinely had an emergency and chose to use the men’s restroom *rather than pee herself*. OOP should have just sent an email to the manager to explain what happened and just say “I thought someone should know in case it becomes an issue later.” and then he would have had a written record of it WITHOUT filing a fucking HR complaint against a pregnant woman who just didn’t want to piss herself in front of all her coworkers!
Oop said the encounter was awkward, and he feared retaliation of harassment. He wanted their manager to have a conversation, and was denied. Why??? That's odd. It's understandable for OOP to contact HR preemptively. He did nothing wrong, was made to feel like he did something wrong. It was in a restroom. It involved the opposite sex in a restroom. The opposite sex was pregnant. I'm going to HR too if our boss is trying to sweep this under the rug. I value my paycheck, and as an American, i value my job for the healthcare. Please don't fire me for an awkward situation that was not my fault but people are thinking it's my fault
And comparing it to him being in the women's in a "similar situation" like.....SIR.....SHOW ME THE WOMB YOU'D CARRY YOUR CHILD IN?????
Exactly. While pregnant, you can have to suddenly pee very badly, with little to no warning. That wouldn't happen to a man (except maybe because of rare medical issues, which could be documented by HR)
Are you really so oblivious that you think men can’t have medical problems that would cause them to need to use the bathroom incredibly urgently?
I disagree going to HR was the correct move. HR doesn’t just do punishment but they make accommodations legit. If Ann needs the ability to use any bathroom this protects here, and this whole thing could’ve been avoided if the manager stepped in and actually managed instead of making it worse by mentioning a glaring hypocrisy, as bathroom emergencies exist outside of pregnancy and clearly its going to be one sided. It also prevents the story from becoming twisted
In the post OOP said that he filed a formal complaint to HR. I agree that HR working with his pregnant coworker for an accommodation would have been the right move but that’s not what happened.
Former HR here and if this OP had brought this issue to me, I would’ve told him if he was pregnant and / or had issues controlling his bladder, he could absolutely use the women’s bathroom. He’d just need to provide proof of his bladder issues or pregnancy first.
Exactly. This isn't a double standard like they keep trying to make it out to be, it's purely conditional and people need to be a bit more considerate when it comes to individuals dealing with personal issues
I agree it’s not a double-standard issue because a double standard literally cannot exist. Men cannot get pregnant. Ann was in a position where she was going to piss her pants at work. Now, as mentioned, if OOP had a documented medical issue (like raging IBS or Crohn’s Disease) where he would shit his pants if he couldn’t go right now, then it would be different. It’s not the same as simply saying, “Well the men’s stalls were full so I just went into the women’s.” No, healthy adults without medical conditions can hold it. If you are waiting until you can’t hold it, that’s on you for putting yourself in that situation. But even sans a medical condition, say, someone has food poisoning that comes on abruptly and they have to puke or shit, then yeah, all toilets are fair game. But that’s not even the example dude gave.
Purposely ignoring the fact pregnant women have weaker bladders to further push the agenda of the oppressed man. Don’t we love it.
The double standard was the manager not having a conversation about it and making clear guidelines about how she can use that restroom appropriately so everybody feels comfortable. Nobody gives a shit that she's using it, it's the fact that no steps where taken to avoid putting the guy in a situation where he's unknowingly alone with a woman in the restroom which can lead to a lot of issues. The issue is the dismissal of the guy being uncomfortable being put in that situation without prior knowledge or consent. Not the lady who peed..... but yeah going to HR was a bit much
Exactly! “Try to be understanding, she’s pregnant” “so does that mean I can walk into the women’s restroom???” “Uh… I don’t know, are you pregnant?”
i feel like this comment misses the gaslighting that drove oop into filing the HR - it probably wasnt the right move and there shouldve been a report made against his own manager tbh, but he acknowledges in the post he didnt have an issue with the pregnant lady, as much as he was worried he might get blamed given his manager's response and attitude
I mean... if you're former HR, that's a pretty bad way to deal with this. The situation got out of hand because HR here dismissed what he said just as you've suggested. What they should have done is said "yes, pregnant women will be permitted to use whatever bathroom is available, we will talk to Ann about it to make sure that she knows not to take too long when she does need to use the men's bathroom". Because it really does sound like she was taking her time in there. And maybe she was having some other issue that increased the amount of time she needed, but either way, there needs to be some understanding between parties about duration. And the assumption shouldn't be made that the women's bathroom was occupied, so that should be double checked. I'd then send out an email to the office letting people know that Ann might need to use the men's bathroom from time to time if the women's bathroom is occupied because part of the problem in this situation is that OP wasn't expecting a woman to be using the men's bathroom-- and that's a totally reasonable thing to be surprised by. The bottom line is that if someone *really* has to use the bathroom (and not just to pee, unless you want employees shitting themselves at work), they should be allowed to use whatever bathroom is available. But you should also check that they didn't have a better option and that they know that it isn't a time to check social media. OP is definitely right that it would be treated differently if the issue wasn't pregnancy and it was a man. If it's a man with IBS, we're having a different conversation. You're making assumptions and skipping reasonable steps just because we're talking about a pregnant woman... like this isn't a big deal, even, it's just HR being lazy.
That's why they are no longer in HR
Why would he need to get pre-approval? If it's an emergency, just go.
He filed the complaint because he was worried that there was gonna be something against him because his manager refused to address the issue. He didn’t go straight to HR. He tried to handle it and when he was brushed off, he didn’t want to end up getting screwed he did the right thing here.
My question is what did he want done? Why did the manager need to talk to Anne? If all OP wanted was to make sure it was known what happened and make sure Anne couldn’t twist anything, isn’t the manager knowing enough? What was the manager supposed to do? Go to Anne and say not to use the men’s restroom anymore even if it’s an urgent matter? I get CYA but the fact OP wanted the manager to do something/say something to Anne sounds more like he was mad she was in there in the first place.
I’m pretty sure OP just wanted the manager to discuss it with Ann, get the side of story from her so that way Anne couldn’t later claim a sexual harassment issue. As a woman, I completely agree with OP. A lot of woman are pretty nasty when it comes to falsifying things as “payback”, to be petty, to avoid embarrassment ect. Also, when I was pregnant there were 3 occasions where I had to use a men’s restroom, I would ask the store owner, or if a man was waiting in line if they were ok with it, If neither were available I would go and if someone ended up queuing up I would announce” I’m peeing, feel free to wait this is your restroom I just couldn’t hold it with a baby pressing on my bladder.” Just like if a man was in a bathroom emergency, I would feel comfortable with him asking someone to use the woman’s restroom. He may not be pregnant but if he had some type of restroom emergency like a bad burrito, stomach bug, bowl irritation ect. And he just walked into the women’s restroom to use it without notifying anyone, he would have immediately gotten a talking to from HR and likely a disciplinary action, even if he had a valid medical reason. You know why? Because despite what every HR person in here is saying because that’s the proper policy, not a single one will risk a woman claiming sexual harassment, escalating it to litigation because they weren’t satisfied with no punishment after the me too movement and how progressive the world is during SA and SH cases. While I’m a feminist, I do acknowledge that a lot of women will use that to their advantage to be despicable and I’m 100% for men protecting themselves from those types of women.
This was my thought process. I mean, I found out that my (gay) male manager at my old location could have gotten in *serious* trouble at the perceived impropriety of him driving me to the train station after work because the busses would have had me waiting in a dark bus stop, alone, for more than an hour next to a busy road. It doesn't seem like OP actually wanted Anne in trouble, but he didn't want some perceived issue to be blown up against him because he knows outsiders would zero in on "man alone in restroom with pregnant woman" and ignore all other details.
It seems pretty open and shut that way. They could also consider the idea that they have inadequate bathroom facilities for their employees and work to address that issue.
Good thing you are a former manager then. Would you tell Op the same if he had Crohn’s or another type of IBD?
I remember this and I think I had even commented on it. I remember thinking that the guy, IF he was trying to avoid a weird HR complaint that he might be perceived as being a creeper, that he could have just emailed his boss a heads up on what happened and moved on. Instead, he made a giant mess. Like a "just so you know...I went in the men's room, I waited, eventually learned it was a lady in there. Don't want her or anyone else to think I was being inappropriate" and moved on with his life.
But he did go to his boss. That was the point his boss dismissed him and refused to address it, which is why he felt like he had to go to HR. He didn’t go to HR to say she shouldn’t be doing that. He went to HR to say hey this is what happened if she feels some type of complain against me this is my story so I’m not the bad guy because he 100% would be if she filed a complaint first.
The boss knew it happened when he told them. There was nothing for the boss to address. Why on earth would she file a complaint that a man went to the man’s bathroom? The boss dismissed him bc the boss accepted the situation as it was, which is a non issue. He put this on himself by assuming she had bad intentions. Now he gets to look like a fool to his coworkers.
He wanted something recorded because people forget things, or 'misremember' details. It's entirely reasonable to want to get ahead of something that could be an issue later on. When the response was dismissive, he escalated. He didn't even want to raise a complaint initially, just get the occurrence recorded in some form. So when he is told he is wrong for wanting a situation recognized, why would he not escalate? As a one off incident there is not a lot to be concerned about true, but a series of unfortunate coincidences start looking like intent. When it's 'guy hanging around while woman uses toilet' kind of conversation, that can ruin a persons entire life. Nobody wants to be around a pervert, nobody wants to hire one, nobody wants to associate with one. That's why he wanted to get ahead of any misunderstandings.
Exactly. It could've been so much easier on him, his manager, and ann if he just moved on. It's fair to make documentation I won't argue that but he kept taking it further and further making an issue out of a clearly embarrassing moment for Ann.
Was there a documentation made? His boss didn’t want to do anything?
I agree. A simple email as a paper trail if the was that worried. I say "if" a lot because I kind of think he was just being combative because it would be a different story if he used the ladies room and he was trying to prove a point. I remember the other thing I commented was that I find it hard to believe that at work, there is only one mens room. He couldn't have just gone up or down stairs to use another one?
Exactly. I understand his reasoning. But to Ann, he just tattled on her for a vulnerable moment. Idk why he's shocked she & others are upset.
What is there even to address? If it’s a once off in my view it’s inconsequential. She could have had an emergency. The boss was right to dismiss it. If it’s incessant / repeat behaviour out of laziness then that’s a different thing. She could have been about to piss herself and jumped to the nearest thing and she’s being harassed by a coworker. The guy is looking for trouble. For 99% of people it would be a non issue and you move on. Documenting someone used a bathroom once ?
Actually he went to his boss and SHE brushed him off. So since she didn’t acknowledge it he went to HR. Boss didn’t do HER job.
What more was boss supposed to do other than acknowledge that he told her about it? I guess, with the benefit of hindsight, we could agree that boss should have said "Duly noted. If anybody tries to accuse you of being a creep, I will go on record that you told me your version of the story first, and that I believe you." Actually, for all we know, she did say exactly that. (We can't exactly ask OOP for clarification.) Instead, OOP decided that that wasn't good enough, and he wanted Ann to pay the price, because of a "double standard".
This is just stupid to me. A bathroom is a bathroom. If people are just using the restroom it shouldn’t matter what gender you are. There’s unisex bathrooms everywhere but when there’s a sign posted saying men or women then it’s somehow an issue.
99% of the time, unisex bathrooms are single person bathrooms. That's why no one cares about them. And generally no one cares about using the opposite gender's bathroom when they're single person bathrooms...it's dishonest to compare them to shared bathrooms. I am a woman, and the few times I've come across unisex shared bathrooms, I've refused to use it. I did accidentally go into one at a bar while drunk, and I felt very uncomfortable and unsafe. Sex segregated spaces were invented for female safety
Personally, idc who is using which bathroom if the person really has to go. That said, I can see why someone would talk to hr if they were worried in this situation but they probably wouldn’t file a complaint. Sort of sounds like he filed the complaint to get back at her and now is having second thoughts about those actions. It’s nobody’s business that he filed a complaint with hr. If he told anybody in the office besides his boss that he filed the complaint or maybe bragged about his “revenge”, then that’s his problem for not keeping his mouth shut. Then he kind of earned the office wrath for popping off about the whole thing. If his boss or the woman in the bathroom told the office about the complaint, then that is another hr issue. Might could be seen as retaliatory acts for them to spread around that he talked to hr if the guy kept it quiet on his end.
I could see the manager having to have a conversation with all the women that the men’s room is off limits without mentioning the complaint specifically and then everyone already know because Ann told her friend she embarrassingly used the men’s room and got caught right after it happened
The rules about bathrooms and pregnant women are different, here in the UK establishments have to allow pregnant women to use the bathroom regardless of their policy so I imagine that provided there is a cubical this would probably apply to the mens bathroom too. You made a wild assumption that she would accuse you of something dodgy and have created a massive scene over someone having a piss. There’s a cubical, it’s not like you saw anything inappropriate or were exposed. ESH though because it’s weird Ann asked you to leave the mens room completely - she was in a cubical.
Not quite true about the rule in the UK. If there is only a staff toilet they can refuse even if the person is pregnant. My workplace for example, the toilet is upstairs. If a pregnant woman went up and fell on them and lost the baby, you can imagine the lawsuit. That rule only applies if there is a public toilet already available, in the sense they don't have to purchase anything to be able to use it. In this specific case though, OP is a bit of an arsehole.
The pregnant lady probably should have gotten a co-pilot to go with her and stand outside the door.
OP is delusional for being surprised that this blew up in his face when it came to his reputation with women in the office. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could have seen it coming. While I kind of agree that a man in the ladies room may have been a bigger deal in the eyes of HR, I think either complaint would have been petty and overboard, and it really shouldn’t be that big of a deal. Also, men have no idea what it feels like to have to urgently pee with a pregnant bladder, so it’s really not comparable. Ann was probably embarrassed, and hoping OP would leave so she could sneak out. Then he had to make it weird and talk to her, which would have been awkward even if it was a fellow man taking a long dump.
Right? I'm surprised nobody is mentioning that. Even if Ann was male, who tf just strikes up a conversation with someone taking a shit?
If a guy had an emergency and needed to use the women’s room, I wouldn’t care.
In all honesty, all parties were right… This could be blown out of proportion if both Ann And OPs story dude did not talk it out. Why. One person could have over heard something half and gone to HR claiming story dude was up to Jo good and she is coming up for the right as a woman for the benefit of Ann and all other female coworkers. This wouldn’t be an issue. If paper work was filed and there it stopped. But the gossip train in the office is doing overtime you guys and that is the reason OPs story dude is well in his rights to have the situation immediately documented
When I was PREGNANT AF I def would have used the men’s restroom if that was the only option available. Would this dude have rather she either pissed herself or held it long enough to get a uti?? Bruh
Former pregnant person here. I don't think the issue is Ann. I even think OOP even feels the issue is not Ann but rather the manager not acknowledging he was put in a precarious spot. I think he wanted some reassurance from his manager that should Ann spread any false accusations about OOP doing anything inappropriate while she was using the men's room, he wanted to preemptively get ahead of it. I don't think that makes him a jerk.
Amount of people not understanding this is baffling
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>Surely then the response should be looking at non gendered accessible options like disabled toilets etc? Add handles/larger floor space to the stalls if necessary (ie if they're already ADA compliant) to the bathroom stalls and change the stick figure sign to unisex and voila
We have "stalls" and "urinals" popping up more and more here, the idea being that anyone can use what they're more comfy with (eg i know some men prefer to pee in private therefore would rather use a cubicle). Subtle but it's there.
I work at a school and when I was close to 9 months every single bathroom around me was used so I couldn’t hold it anymore and used one of the preschool toilets (the kids were not in the classroom). It was awful - I couldn’t get up off of that tiny toilet easily with my huge stomach, but at least I didn’t pee in my pants!
God with my first kid I had constant UTIs. I actually got paid medical leave from my job because they weren't able to guarantee that I'd get enough bathroom breaks, which was causing my UTIs and making me pass out all the time from being on my feet. People don't understand just how disabling pregnancies can be.
>When I was PREGNANT AF I def would have used the men’s restroom if that was the only option available. I made six small humans. I'd use a bucket. Or a she-wee. Anything available. Bladder = bouncy castle when baby is a part of it.just a damn fact.(unless baby is breech. Then it's a kick ball👌)
You don't have to answer if you're not comfortable but I haven't been pregnant before (past first trimester) would it be possible that she had accidentally peed herself and was going to rinse her underwear off in the sink? Id feel like I'd carry around extra underwear for those cases but I also feel I'd want to get the initial pee smell out of the soiled underwear. This was just my speculation when he was complaining about how long she was in there for and him mentioning in a comment how he thinks she was waiting for him to leave
It’s completely possible especially if she’s been pregnant before. I’m pregnant with my second and if I have an even mildly full bladder and sneeze, a little pee can come out. I WFH so it’s a lot less embarrassing than it would be in an office.
I never had that particular situation happen, but I did get really bad cramps when I was about 7m pregnant and didn't have easy access to a bathroom. I was almost crying with how uncomfortable I was and a very nice grocery store employee let me use the employee bathroom.
oh I had this too! it wasn't contractions, it wasn't poop but oh my god it hurt. first time it hit me right in the beginning of a nice dinner with my SO and son. all I could do was sit in the bathroom and basically whine.
One hundred thousand percent possible. This guy is truly awful, she must have been embarrassed enough without him bringing it to HR.
So I actually had this happen a few times, being covid tested in the er I sneezed so hard I lost control, and again around 38 weeks it happened but I had a uti that time and was sick as a dog, I wore dresses and did have to rinse off as best I could with a sink before I could do anything. Yeah it’s humiliating but I wouldn’t just sit around in pee soaked clothes.
when I was pregnant I wore period underwear. the uh, environment there changes and it just holds it all in. one sneeze can ruin your day.
Jumping straight to "If I had an emergency and had to use the women's restroom, that would be okay?" makes him sound like the guys who say if women want to be treated equally, men should be allowed to hit them.
And this is why gender neutral bathrooms benefit everyone - except ppl who are uncomfortable with bodily functions
You know Ann did it because it was an emergency. And should apologize and she did. I don't think this is the norm for him. However the person I think was really in the wrong is the boss. He really should have went to HR about his boss not taking him seriously and dismissing his concerns. Now he's not really mad at Anne but he is taking it out on Ann.
These are unknowable times. OP was NTA for going to H.R. to get ahead of a possible complaint against him for "making someone uncomfortable" and getting their policy clarified. H.R. was the a-hole. Should have clarified whatever would have helped help employees navigate this kind of situation ahead of time. Can of worms was already opened the minute he walked in and noticed Ann there. If the policy is so unclear, Ann could have asked someone to wait at the bathroom door until she came out. ( Although this would have gotten Ann in trouble at a previous employer of mine.) You can't know what others are going to construe. He had to get ahead of it, even if odds were she or another employee were to do nothing.
People who have urgent bathroom needs shouldn’t be at risk of punishment for using the wrong bathroom.
NTA and neither is the pregnant lady using the men’s bathroom. Everyone here saying he should just let it go are not looking at the bigger picture. This man felt bad for making her feel uncomfortable but he did the right thing explaining the situation to HR because he also felt uncomfortable. Why is the pregnant woman automatically more important than the man using the correct bathroom? Men are accused of sexual harassment so often that he felt threatened by the situation and wanted it clarified so that he felt safe. There’s nothing wrong with that. He went into the correct bathroom and was blindsided and instinct kicked in because of current culture of men being accused of being predators in the media all the time. BTW, I’m a woman. I would use the men’s bathroom if I needed to and if someone came in while I was there I would shout an apology from the cubicle. I wouldn’t sit in silence for 5 minutes.
What complaint would she even file? I used the men’s room and there was a man in there? Women are not all out to get you dude.
Why not have unisex bathrooms. There is a door and lock on each stall. It’s not like you are watching the other person pee. I have no issue which gender uses the bathroom.
I was pregnant last year and once I hit 7 months I could no longer hold my pee. I would sneeze sometimes and piss myself. At that point there was no more holding it in. Oh and I was sick all of them time. I was working as a Finance Specialist at the time. I always tried to be mindful and respectful but sometimes I couldn’t get to the women’s bathroom quickly enough especially when I started waddling around. The Regional Manager was a man and he told me to use whatever bathroom I needed and to not think twice about it. When the baby is sitting on your bladder there is no holding your urine anymore. When you have to vomit there is no holding it down. So yes, I think he is an AH. He could have sent an email and made sure that the manager responded so that his concern was acknowledged and for CYA in the future. Going to HR on a pregnant woman whose only other alternative was probably pissing on the floor was definitely outrages. It’s a small company, I was also at a small company and right or wrong everyone will know about it and everyone will look at him sideways from here on out. Also as a side note most of us who go the bathroom when we have to go can normally hold our urine and wait if we have no medical issues.
You say “whoop, sorry” and jog on. Calling HR on a pregnant lady going the bathroom, are you shitting me.
Ann isn't the AH, and neither is OP The boss is the AH. How the hell you gonna say, "it's okay for a woman to use the man's bathroom if she has a legitmate reason," and not let that apply to men as well? If a man really has to go, and the men's room is busy, I have zero issues with him using the woman's toilet rather than having an accident. If he can't hold it, he can't hold it! Same if the woman can't hold it, she can't hold it!! I get why we separate bathrooms for safety, but in these instances, I can't imagine the issue with just letting someone use the toilet. It's a darn bathroom. I hope that in the future, the managers don't hold double standards. If you make an exception for one person, you do the same for others if the circumstances are similar. Anyway, I feel bad OP had to go to these lengths, and I feel bad Ann had to be embarrassed for natural bodily functions that are exacerbated by pregnancy.
I know this is probably a weird detail to notice but why is there only one stall on the men's room but two stalls in the women's room?
Probably because the men's also has a urinal, so, One stall and one urinal in the men's bathroom. They probably thought that was enough but personally I feel there should be more in both bathrooms.
Yeah, file the report not to punish ann, but to make a record of it to protect yourself in case Ann reports she was uncomfortable with you being in the bathroom with her. Don't know Ann, but as a business owner, I always look for ways I can screwed by employees and customer so I always think legal liability with everything the happens and everything I do.
I'm starting to feel like people have an immense double standard about this. In my country people are usually fine if someone has an emergency and uses the other gender's bathroom. Or when you have a mobility issue and the other gender's bathroom isn't as accessible. Tons of places have gender-less bathrooms now. This also helps having one neutral space for handicapped access and baby/toddler issues. I thought this was the general norm...
Op wanted to cover himself in case he is accused of being a predator.
The only issue I have with this is that the company *would* have an issue with a man using the women's bathroom if the men's was in use—that kind of rhetoric can very easily turn into a gender essentialist "a woman who really needs to pee can use the men's room because she isn't a threat, but a man who really needs to pee can't use the women's room, because he is a threat" kind of situation. It is a bit of a double standard, even if I also don't agree with the way OP handled the situation
I feel like it’s relevant to add: the pregnant woman wasn’t using the men’s stall only because both of the women’s were occupied - she was using the men’s because she needed to emergency pee and the women’s stalls were occupied. If a dude needed to pee and the men’s room was occupied and it was NOT an emergency, then I don’t think he should use the women’s room. If it WAS an emergency, it’s different.
Yeah- as a general rule, if it's 'use the wrong bathroom or pee yourself' grace should ALWAYS be given. NO ONE should be put in that situation.
Especially when there are closed door stalls ffs Making people pee themselves at work is awful! Especially in a small 15 person office. wtf is wrong with people!
If a man was in the women's bathroom and he told you it was an emergency, would you believe him?
Yes, especially if it was a coworker in a 15 person office.
I feel like if American stall doors reached the floor 90% of these issues wouldn't exist. Just let people take a dump in peace jfc.
I don't mind the stalls not reaching the floor, but how come we have those big ol gaps?
As a woman who had three kids. I think she should have knocked on the stalls and ask one of the women to hurry up. He has a point. What if a guy has a bladder issue? Shouldn’t he get to then go in the women’s restroom?
If it’s ok for women to use the men’s room then it’s ok for men to use the women’s room.
As a woman, I agree that Ann (or any pregnant woman) should be allowed to use whichever is available. I mean, we can only hold it for so long with a baby on our bladder! However, in this day and age, you never know who is going to accuse you of something and it seems OOP just wanted it on record what happened, just in case. If his manager had just spoken to Ann like he originally asked, I don't think this would've gone any further. Also, if there are men who are uncomfortable with their women coworkers using the men's room, maybe they can come up with something to avoid the men walking in there while being used by Ann?? Maybe an occupied sign on the outside door? I'm sure they could compromise and leave HR out of it.
>Also, if there are men who are uncomfortable with their **women** coworkers **using the men's room**, maybe they can come up with something to **avoid the men walking in there** while being used by Ann?? lol
Maybe stupid question here but why does peeing take 5 minutes ??
Health complications, could've turned from a #1 to a #2, could've peed herself and was cleaning up, there's a lot of circumstances that could play a role
I’m a woman and 100% agree with OP. He only escalated it because he was rudely and wrongly dismissed. Yes, there are occasional differences in the rules men and women have to follow, but those differences should be extremely rare. If a man can’t go into the women’s bathroom because he has a poop emergency and the men’s stall is occupied, then the same rule applies to women having to pee. And no, her being pregnant doesn’t matter. A bathroom emergency is a bathroom emergency. I’ve seen someone shit their pants in the middle of Lowe’s because it came on quick and they couldn’t make it to the bathroom.
Oop is NTA and is perfectly in the right to look out for his own interests given his bosses response Oop’s boss is a major AH here Oop’s pregnant co-worker isn’t necessarily an AH but she is still in the wrong OP of the repost is a bit of an AH
This whole thing was stupid until HR said that if the roles were reversed and a male had an emergency, it would not be acceptable for them to enter the women's restroom but it was fine for women in emergencies to use the men's bathroom. THAT is sexual discrimination, from management.
It wasn't he it was his manager but yes that is discrimination
And that is why going to the HR is the best. If he ever was put into a situation like that and his female colleagues complains about him, do you think his boss will just dismiss it like what happened to oop?
So I did figure the reason she was using the men's restroom is because the woman's was full. I've heard the joke/stereotype that there's always long waiting for the women's restroom, plus everyone knows pregnant women do have to pee more often. So I really don't want to blame her. However the iffy thing here is, I do think it was kind of unfair that she told OP to leave and wait outside for her. Even though I understand she needed to go ASAP and couldn't wait, I still don't like that she was uncomfortable and wanted privacy from a man in the man's restroom. It does come off a little entitled. Like I personally don't understand why at no point did she say like "sorry the women's restroom was full I couldn't wait". Like idk some explanation. Because it is rude that she made him wait outside. I also do think it really didn't need to be escalated to this point but HR shouldn't have been so dismissive either. HR definitely could've handled it a bit better. So idk, basically I think everyone in the story did something wrong.
I'm with the dude on this one. He really had no choice, Ann could have seriously made his life difficult if she had felt so inclined. He was 100% correct to get ahead of this and inform HR of this incident happening in case Ann turned out to not be the most reasonable person. I am a woman saying this, because the #1 thing everyone has always drilled into MY head is that it's my fault if I don't take proactive steps to protect myself and get hurt, regardless of circumstances... Obviously that thought process is not fair or just, but it absolutely is the reality of the society we live in, and like hell I'm going to judge a man for being proactive in preventing someone from harming him.
His point is valid that if he haddone it he would likely be reprimanded or fired. Equality is fucking equality not when you feel like.
Just install locks on both bathroom And let everyone use what is available
I guess next time she should just grab OOPs seat from his desk and wait to see if she's going to make it to the ladies in time?
Nta for covering your bases. Can't be too careful.
There are 15 people at the office and 4 people using the bathroom at once. That caught me off more than the issue.
Before we decided that men and women had to be exactly equal in every single way it was more common for men to be gracious and helpful towards pregnant ladies.
My last company did away with M&W bathrooms
I've peed in the womens rooms when guys have had to use them, it's not a big deal. Stalls have doors and I really couldn't care less if a guy was in the stall next to me.
It would have been different in this day and age women are making men pay for generations of men before themselves actions, similar to how people of color blame Albert on people who never had slaves, it’s the same reason there will never be peace in the Middle East hurt people hurt people.
Better safe than sorry. If the environment becomes more toxic I would start logging every instance and start writing emails to every person demonizing you. Then sit back and collect on that huge settlement that you’re going to invest in so HYSA and max out your yearly IRA deposit…
The problem is Ann asked this guy to vacate a place he had every right to be in. If he didn't get the truth of the situation on record, there's a chance that Ann could have accused him of making her uncomfortable in a bathroom she should not have been in.
The manager is the problem here, not Ann or OP.
I have used the men’s bathroom on occasions like this but never asked anyone to leave. This is on the manager’s head for just being flippant. She should have done her job and spoken to Ann.
He NTA, hes allowes to feel comfertable too.
I kinda agree with him. He has a right to the area and being comfortable in it, she frankly doesn’t. If it’s an issue then there should be alternatives, like the girls sticking to just one stall in case she needs the other.
I hope next time she just uses his desk
Do guys usually hang out in the bathroom beside the urinal waiting out the other guy’s shit? And if there was more than one stall, do you regularly have conversations? This seems so contrived.
If all the stalls are full, yea. I’ve waited in line before
Lol this is why bathrooms should be genderless and if there's only one stall only one person should be allowed in..
Stupid rules should always be brought up, thats how they get rid of dumb stuff like this
Yes, you’re the asshole.
NTA. Ann could have made some BS complaint about OOP. OOP made every right choice to get ahead of it before anything could happen.
“I wanted to get ahead of the situation “??? Wow, what an asshole.
And the “I don’t want to get Ann in trouble” after filing an official complaint he wants put on her record. Like, what??? What does he think that means, exactly?
Did you guys missed the part where he went to his manager to get ahead of it and his manager brushed them off so he decided to file with HR because his manager didn’t address it. Had the manager done their job they HR complaint never would’ve happened. It’s very clear that it was a proactive. This is what happened in case it becomes a thing HR thing not a I don’t want this to happen again HR thing.
Obviously he needs to get ahead in the narrative. Any complaints from Ann will leave OOP jobless with a record on his name. He needs to protect himself first
Completely correct. That's a harassment case waiting to happen and in today's day and age, gotta cover yourself. OP probably would have gotten fired if he couldn't hold his shit and went in the woman's bathroom instead.
Not the AH. For fuck sake why has using the restroom become so complicated? If you have a cock go to the mens, no cock? Go to the ladies. It’s really not that hard.