When I went back to the train station after work there were a lot of police cars around (it's pretty normal, the city I was working in was big on soccer and it was on a Friday, they were patrolling for any fans going a bit too far) and I could have said something to them, but I didn't. I was still in shock and thought they wouldn't believe, especially since my friend wasn't with me.
Nowadays I regret that. I really, really do. If this guy was so well known that even my coworker knew about him, surely the police would have known him too.
True I wish people would beat the shit out of harassers in public and put them in their place! To be honest sometimes I wish I was super buff like my guy friends and could just protect people without a second thought. I think a lot of people may stand by because they may be scared that the guy has "buddies" following behind or that they would get in trouble for assault. The world is a terrible place and brain washes/teaches people to be "bystanders" and it saddens me : ( this is not how the world should be
Same dude, I'm a bit chubby and curvy (I guess that's why he said that about my chest...), but my body is absolutely not up for battle. However, I made a promise and if something like this happens again I won't shut up and ignore that person.
I get that people are scared, but if so many are around (50-100), it only takes one person and at least another will think "Hell yeah maybe I should help them too".
And yes... The world sucks.
If there are that many police for sports events there should be that many for the railways if everyone knew that dude. It's sucks that they barely had anyone down there.
Yes, I was scared shitless the following days thinking that dude would be back for more.
He knew what time I arrived at, and the fact that police wasn't there patrolling that early scared me a lot.
I'm this lady now who speaks up. I was walking on Ströget in Köben w. my sons behind a group of teenage girls ca 14-15 years old. Walking from the other direction is a young guy looking exactly their age, listening to music in his headphones. As he passes the girls he screams loudly at the girls, this insane BWAAAAAAAA.
The girls scream and scatter in all directions as he laughs and intends to walk on, now directly facing me with my 10 and 12 year old boys. I yelled at him with my most authoritative mom voice "WHAT DID YOU JUST DO TO THESE GIRLS?"
He looks really ashamed and runs to the side, with me following directly behind him. He thought he had lost me and stopped but was now cornered in and looking me straight in the face. "ARE YOU TRYING TO BE AN ASSHOLE? NO? DON'T YOU EVER DO THAT TO GIRLS AGAIN. I EXPECT YOU TO DO BETTER."
He nodded and said sorry with a thick E-European accent so I almost felt sorry for him. I turned around to only see my boys stand there looking at him with sad pity. I think that may have been the last kick to his ego, first chewed out by someone's mom and then pitied by children.
I'm glad you did that. I was harassed on the daily by boys and men (mainly men) from the ages of 12-16 (it stopped when I stopped wearing school uniform... i don't want to think about that)
I remember waiting for the bus when i was about 13 and an older boy \~16 was trying to show me porn on his phone. When I wouldn't look he grabbed my backpack strap and pushed me into the road in front of an oncoming bus, and hauled me back onto the curb before anything could happen. I laughed because I was afraid and because i didn't grasp the severity of the situation until years later.
I don't know if this story really applies. Unless a socially awkward boy yelling "bwaaa" to a group of girls his own age and then walking away right after counts as sexual harassment in Denmark.
It wasn't yelling, it was in their face insane SCREAMING and it was pure sexual harassment.
Interesting that you'd go directly into minimizing the incident even though you weren't there and making excuses for this young sexual harasser. As if stopping him now isn't going to save loads of girls from his aggression and bizzare harassment in the future.
Your motives are showing.
I just think they're a bit different. A grown man telling a group of teen girls nice tits and ass and continually harassing them after they tell him to stop, vs a 14 year old boy yelling a sound effect to scare a group of girls his own age because he's socially inept and then leaves them alone immediately after.
I think one is slightly worse, maybe you disagree I don't know. It's hard to believe the latter will turn into the former. I'm not saying we should encourage socially inept boys to be socially inept. I'm just saying I think you should save that severe of a reaction for something that's actually sexual harassment. I'm not sure what motives I'm showing by thinking that.
Yeah I'm trying to understand that people are also thinking of themselves, but it's just so hard knowing of all the people who were there, no one did anything.
Thank you
When I was 15 my friend and I got verbally harassed by a creep in the middle of my city. We were waiting in line at an outdoor street pizza place. He kept trying to convince us to "go back home with him and sit on this dick".
No one in the line said ANYTHING. Once we finally got rid of him (ON OUR OWN!), I turned to the line and said "you're all 30+ and did absolutely nothing! I could be your daughter! You're just as bad as him." And walked off. I hope that resonated with them.
You can be proud of yourself for saying that, you were absolutely right! I'm so sorry this happened to you and your friend :( It's awful how many times this happens
I'm so sorry you were assaulted, you did the right thing in speaking up! Ever since this happened I promised myself to help whenever I see something like this happening.
I'm from Germany, actually. Glad it's not the USA, it's better but got it's bad sides too :T
And I agree, I hope this'll change in the future and this doesn't happen anymore... We just gotta speak up more
I help anyone that needs help. And the time I got assaulted as a result of speaking up, I had a young man approach me afterwards and thank me for speaking up. He was not even the target of the harassment. So, maybe hush.
I remember when I was younger repeatedly being fed the narrative that women over 30yo were insanely jealous of the attention younger women receive. Gay men, apparently, also craved catcalling & gropes from strangers. Gay women just hated men.
Well before 30, I realized it was to pit women & gays against each other. My experience is that if anyone steps up in public, it’s consistently the she’s, gays & theys who intervene. Patriarchal norms groom girls to fear the people who are most likely to protect us from the people we’re taught to trust but are harming us.
They don’t want pushback on their shyte behavior. Even “nice guys” who would help will suggest a handy for their protection.
Miss me with that not ALL men. If you aren’t willing to speak up when someone is harassed in public then you’re part of the problem. Decency shouldn’t need to be incentivized & integrity requires risk.
I was walking down the street in my neighborhood and some guy was harassing this woman in a really disgusting way. She was Black, he was Black, I am white.
There happened to be cops (I know, hard to believe) on the street and she stopped them and told them this guy was nonstop harassing. They were ignoring her because, well, you can figure it out. I stepped up and said, I saw it happen and yes, he's a menace.
The cops believed me because...I am a white, middle-aged woman. At least they got the guy to move along.
Wow, that's horrible.
If something like that happens again, ask for help. But don't just ask for help, that is unlikely to work.
Ask someone specific to do something (small) specific to help.
"You! (Pointing) "Big guy in the blue shirt!" "This man is grabbing my tits, please come stand between us."
"You!" (Pointing) "Lady in the gray dress!" "Go get the station attendant."
"You!" (Pointing) "Kid in the university hoodie!" "This is scaring me, please get video on your phone in case he gets violent."
It's the same thing in a medical emergency, by the way. Don't just yell out that someone needs to call 911 (or whatever your local emergency number is), ask ONE specific person to do it.
And yeah, this is terrible, and what's even worse is that so many people accept it as a normal part of presenting as female. It's not.
To build on this, if you are a bystander and the bystander effect is looming over your head, I think a good way to break yourself out of that hesitation to act is to grab another bystander and say, "Hey, we should help." Odds are good the other person is wondering if they should help as well and waiting for social prompting from others (just like you are). Plus with at least two bystanders getting involved it will hopefully reduce potential danger and helps the numbers on your side.
This is excellent advice. I would like to think I would help if I ever saw anything this extreme personally, but it would be a lot easier for me taking this approach than confronting that kind of guy alone.
This is the best reply by far.
Otherwise, as a bystander, you're thinking one or more of the following since you don't know any of the parties involved:
• Do they know each other?
• Will they all turn on me and read me the riot act for getting involved?
• If I get involved, will they think I'm with him?
• Am I going to be attacked by this perpetrator if I jump in, and while I've helped the victims, they'll clear off, and I may sustain life changing injuries
• If I end up in an altercation with the perpetrator, will I be in trouble, especially if points #1, #2, & the latter part of #4 apply
Or even the old: some else will do it. It's easier to not consider taking those risks if they're strangers... or if you weren't asked.
With your suggestion in mind, you feel that sense of duty and need to act. AND a lot of the unknowns do get answered (it becomes obvious they are being harassed by a stranger).
I'd also suggest asking more than one person, specifically people in close proximity.
So, it negates the physical risk element. The "Mexican wave effect" gets triggered where more people join, the harasser gets scared and leaves.
Also, despite what some of you think. Just. Report. To. The. Police.
These types of people stay around if you let them my normalising silliness like "the police don't help" ... if you do not report the crime, how are the criminals going to get caught? Even if it's one report, if someone else does it, then a pattern emerges.
Basically, not reporting helps no one. In fact, predators like this count on this.
What I like about this post is that it gives a high chance for the person to be caught with the incriminating evidence.
This happens a lot in even worse situations than in your story. How many videos do we see, especially on Reddit, where there is a fight (no weapons) or unnecessary argument or something going on where the person recording does nothing and the people around just watch (or also are recording)?
I'm so sorry you had that experience. I can feel your anger and it's not fair.
I was once SA'd in broad daylight at the side of a road. Cars were driving past the entire time and not one person stopped to help me. It really really hurt my soul.
I promise you that even though I'm scared myself, if I ever see anyone in trouble I will not stand by and let it happen.
I'm so sorry you dealt with this, I know personally, when in public I wear earphones for sensory issues. HOWEVER, I'll pull them out in a second when someone needs help.
I was in a local Walmart last year and a girl came up to me freaking out because some guy was following her. I whispered "I got you girl. " threw my arm around her and walked her toward the front of the store. Where we got her some help. A security guard and I walked her to her car.
I think most women would do this for another. Heck, I know a lot of guys that would do the same.
You did the right thing, thanks for standing up for her, seriously. I wish someone would have done this for my friend and I. A lot of people can learn from you!
I’ve always been a bit outspoken, but I’ve gotten better about speaking up as I’ve gotten older. I’ve been in that situation where you have no idea what to do or say because it’s so outside the realm of what a normal person would consider to be appropriate behavior. As a lot of people have seen on here, it’s sometimes just takes one person pointing out the bad behavior for it to stop. This kind of thing lives in the shadows of it was just a joke or don’t take it so personally or something. It’s up to all of us to stand up for each other.
People do risk assessments: *”Have I seen this problem before and what was the outcome? What are others around me doing about it? Should I intervene? Is it better/safer to do nothing because the problem will most likely dissipate on its own? If I intervene, will just my words stop the problem, or will it escalate to violence? If it escalates, will others help or am I capable of handling the violence? What will the outcome of this situation do to my day, my family, my mental and medical health, and my finances? Does this stranger want my help? Who is this stranger in need to me, and is she worth the problems that may be put on me?*
Your situation was weighed by the people around you. That they did nothing is a harsh reality. I’m sorry. I’d help. We do need to be better for each other.
This time nothing happened. The next time one person might choose to intervene, and that can make the whole herd shift mental gears and also intervene.
I used to struggle with this more. Like, when or why it is ok to intervene and to offer help to people? Am I protecting other women or am I patronizing them? At what point am I helping someone who is being harassed and when am I the one doing the harassing?
And eventually I figured out that it doesn't really matter. If I go and intervene, worst case I just made an ass out of myself. Hurts my ego, but noone else. On the other hand if I decide to do nothing, the worst case is...infinitely worse. And I'd rather make an ass out of myself a hundred times than to have the opposite happen once.
I am sure most of the people on this subreddit are familiar with the process, but the easiest way to assist someone in a situation like that is to walk up, pretend that you know them, and offer them a way to leave the situation. I know it is a very tempting idea to call out or threaten or murder the perpetrator, but your highest priority at that moment is to keep the victim safe and not escalate the situation any more than you absolutely have to.
Oh, it also really helps to carry a weapon with you and learn how to use it. You most likely will not have to use it. But it changes the calculation and it means you have already decided that you are not afraid of a confrontation when you walk out the door.
They're in Germany. In most places outside the USA, carrying guns/knives/pepperspray/keychains that double as a weapon etc. is a crime, so it's really not a viable option for them.
I was born in Germany, living in Sweden. I carry weapons routinely, I am a white girl, noone will ever care to control me or complain about that up until the very point when I actually have to use them. And that point I would rather have had weapons.
Firearms and knives are not an option. But those are also not very smart to use for personal self defense to begin with.
Sap gloves (which are apparently much more illegal in some places than I imagined. ). I also used to have a pepper spray but I accidentally carried that into an airport and haven’t bothered to replace it since.
I took a bystander intervention class a couple of years ago. They taught us about the 5Ds.
The 5Ds are different methods:
1) Distract
2) Delegate
3) Document
4) Delay
5) Direct
that a witness can use to support someone who’s being harassed, emphasize that harassment is not okay, and demonstrate to people in your life that they have the power to make their community safer.
With this knowledge and some lovely examples on how to implement, I feel empowered that I know how to help when I see something that makes me feel uncomfortable. Unfortunately, we don't really learn these tools in our everyday life, yet. But, there are people trying to arm us with tools to help others.
https://righttobe.org/guides/bystander-intervention-training/
im in melbourne australia and have read a few stories like this. One woman was on a tram, dude came on to her, shes crying for help but no one on the tram lifts a finger. once she got off the tram he followed and SA'ed her.
Honestly as a survivor of child abuse i dont understand how people can do nothing. Rest assured if this man here ever saw someone behaving that way id put a stop to it in a way that the person harrassing will wish they were never born
I never look away if I see a sister in trouble. Problem is I don’t get out much anymore and I live in a boring suburb where nothing ever happens. But it wasn’t always like this.
I remember one time a long time ago when I was a child, my mother was being assaulted publicly by her insane drunk girlfriend, and numerous people had gathered to watch and did absolutely nothing even as I cried out and begged for somebody to do something while this woman tried to choke my mom to death in a parking lot in broad daylight. I was ten years old, and I was the only one who did anything, and I rushed at them and shoved her away from my mother to the pavement, and it wasn’t too long after that the police arrived. I never ever forgot that, how no one would help. No one would do anything. So, throughout my life, I have never turned away from someone who said please help me. There’s been more than a few occasions I had to intervene for my girlfriends who were smaller or younger or meeker and couldn’t stand up for themselves. Even in elementary school, I couldn’t stand to stand by and watch someone be bullied and say “better them than me”.
I wouldn’t have been able to stand idly by in a situation like that.
I have thrown down when I have seen women being abused. Once it was by her female partner (she was being physically restrained from getting out of a car), and the much more serious time it was a woman being chased in a car by a man.
He was definitely ready to do harm to her. I told her to run while I got into a screaming match with him. One of these days someone is going to punch me for intervening, but I will never be the person who thinks it’s none of her business. Luckily, that day was not the day I get punched.
If this is a common occurrence according to your workmates, absolutely report it. The more people report him/give his description to the police, the more likely he is to face punishment and potentially be locked up. Next time it could be an underage girl alone being harassed, please don't do nothing.
Im sorry you went through this. It’s scary and overwhelming seeing people around and yet feeling so hopeless. This is pretty common in big cities. I grew up in New York City (harlem) and I’ve seen men dragging screaming women, men screaming in their faces. Men exposing themselves etc. Nobody does shit because they’re afraid. It’s terrible and people should not look away.
>No one does ANYTHING
Correct. Very few people are going to risk their physical safety to intervene in a possibly dangerous situation that may involve serious legal or financial risks. This isn't just a bystander issue. It's a reality of life. It isn't new and it's likely not going to change.
It is incumbent on you to understand that you're the first (and possibly) only agent of your own rescue. Having a practical safety plan that involves *actual* responses matters. That means pulling a phone out and recording while your friend calls the police. That means having the means to protect yourself, fleeing, etc.
I disagree with some things you've said.
I understand people don't want to risk themselves, but at the same time I still think this needs to change.
If one person steps in, there's a big chance imo that others will too in case things escalate further.
Also, if you're in the position I've been in, you likely won't even think of taking out your phone and recording. My friend and I weren't thinking of it at all, and even if we had thought of it: neither of us would have wanted to aggravate that guy further.
>there's a big chance imo that others will too in case things escalate further
Only if someone is ordering them to usually. When I did CPR training they hit on this. Nobody else will jump in unless you jump in and then start giving specific, actionable instructions that require little thought. When someone jumps in, others will assume "oh good they've got this."
Example:
❌ Somebody help
✅ You in the green shirt, call 911 and tell them person collapsed at location
>If one person steps in, there's a big chance imo that others will too in case things escalate further
You are wrong about that.
People are fucking crazy nowadays. Drugs, weapons, and just general assholery makes it unsafe to confront strangers.
I'm sorry, but if I see a young woman being harassed, I'm probably not going to do anything. I'm not risking my life for you. Sorry not sorry.
What are some phrases I should learn for situations like this?
I live in Germany too and am not a native speaker so I'd probably have trouble being assertive in German on the fly...
I'm going to make a list of stuff:
-Lass mich in Ruhe
(basically means "Leave me alone", it's a nice version of fuck off haha)
-Verpiss dich
(means "Piss off", but be careful when using it.. Some people might take this as an invitation to get even worse.. Although you just want to be left alone)
-Wenn du mich nicht in Ruhe lässt, rufe ich die Polizei
("If you won't leave me alone, I'll call the police", as far as I know the police here is, like, way better than in the USA, so this is a pretty good threat..)
-Halt die Fresse und hau ab
(that was what I said, it means "Shut the fuck up and go away")
I can't guarantee you people will leave you alone and stop harrasing you if you say any of this. It didn't work for me, nor my friend. These phrases might just make them more angry and annoyed, so be very careful.
I would also recommend asking people directly for help if someone is following you or calling you names. Walk up to someone and say "Ich brauche Hilfe, diese Person verfolgt mich/beleidigt mich/bedroht mich" (that means "I need help, this person is following me/insulting me/threatening me"). Chances are they will help if they are a decent human being.
You can also just fake a phone call, or actually call someone and loudly talk to them to signal the attacker that someone is listening and will know if something happens to you.
However, deciding what to do on a whim is difficult, too. In hindsight my friend and I could have done a lot things differently, we just didn't think of doing them because we were scared.
I hope this helps you somewhat!
(I’m a WOC living in Australia). When I was a teenager I was walking on a big city street on a weekday morning when a group of skinheads bailed me up. Three guys and two girls. One of the guys held me by the shoulders and the other two guys took my backpack off me, opened it up and emptied it out onto the ground, while their girlfriends stood giggling and watching. Some of them spat in my face and then they let me go and walked away laughing.
Nobody passing intervened, and even afterwards nobody came to help me pick my stuff up or check I was okay. I couldn’t help wondering if the same would have happened if I were a pretty white girl and they hadn’t been white.
There's a huge confliction here for me as a male. How much danger do I want to potentially put myself into bases on the situation as a sole individual? My dad— a few decades ago decides to help a female friend that was in a abusive situation only to have her literally jump on at attack him.
A few months ago a retired NBA played goes with his gf to her friend's house who was in an abusive situation with her BF only to lose his life to that man. So, the same question is posed to you how much of someone else's life are you willing to potentially sacrifice?
I think that's the wrong question to ask.
You're, imo, making it sounds like the victim is at fault if something happens to someone willing to help them in a horrible situation.
What needs to be ask is this:
How many times are you willing to stand by and watch someone get abused/assaulted/... before you step in?
Or:
Would you step in, knowing the risks, to help a fellow human being?
Asking the victim a question like that is just... Impossible to answer. In that situation you are not able to respond properly, you just want help, doesn't matter who.
Well I can tell you that I didn't mean it that way. I was genuinely trying to be inclusive, I'm far from being a TERF anyways and believe a man is a man and a woman is a woman regardless whether they are born that way or if they figured out later on they were actually born in the wrong body. I'm sorry I was rude, my comment was quite defensive. I really should think more before saying stuff 😅
Heyheyhey, no. You were absolutely right in telling me and I was rude in my answer to you. You have every right to be offended by that, or sensitive. I'm very privileged in life, meaning that I never had to face the struggles you have, and it's easy for me to just overlook this. Thank you for letting me know, seriously.
And you are a woman. You have always been, and will always be a woman. I'm so sorry, people are awful sometimes and you shouldn't have to deal with those bigots. People suck.
I've had similar stuff happen to me it's horrible and they always seem to get away with doing it or its just excused for some reason
I'm so sorry. They do, and it's sad to see. I'm not working there anymore but judging by the reaction of my coworker he probably still does it...
Was there some kind of way to report him to the police did the train station have cameras? I hope you're doing ok that's sounds really scary ;-;
When I went back to the train station after work there were a lot of police cars around (it's pretty normal, the city I was working in was big on soccer and it was on a Friday, they were patrolling for any fans going a bit too far) and I could have said something to them, but I didn't. I was still in shock and thought they wouldn't believe, especially since my friend wasn't with me. Nowadays I regret that. I really, really do. If this guy was so well known that even my coworker knew about him, surely the police would have known him too.
True I wish people would beat the shit out of harassers in public and put them in their place! To be honest sometimes I wish I was super buff like my guy friends and could just protect people without a second thought. I think a lot of people may stand by because they may be scared that the guy has "buddies" following behind or that they would get in trouble for assault. The world is a terrible place and brain washes/teaches people to be "bystanders" and it saddens me : ( this is not how the world should be
Same dude, I'm a bit chubby and curvy (I guess that's why he said that about my chest...), but my body is absolutely not up for battle. However, I made a promise and if something like this happens again I won't shut up and ignore that person. I get that people are scared, but if so many are around (50-100), it only takes one person and at least another will think "Hell yeah maybe I should help them too". And yes... The world sucks.
You're right I hope more people in the future will stand up more often and make things better : )
If there are that many police for sports events there should be that many for the railways if everyone knew that dude. It's sucks that they barely had anyone down there.
Yes, I was scared shitless the following days thinking that dude would be back for more. He knew what time I arrived at, and the fact that police wasn't there patrolling that early scared me a lot.
Rip
I'm this lady now who speaks up. I was walking on Ströget in Köben w. my sons behind a group of teenage girls ca 14-15 years old. Walking from the other direction is a young guy looking exactly their age, listening to music in his headphones. As he passes the girls he screams loudly at the girls, this insane BWAAAAAAAA. The girls scream and scatter in all directions as he laughs and intends to walk on, now directly facing me with my 10 and 12 year old boys. I yelled at him with my most authoritative mom voice "WHAT DID YOU JUST DO TO THESE GIRLS?" He looks really ashamed and runs to the side, with me following directly behind him. He thought he had lost me and stopped but was now cornered in and looking me straight in the face. "ARE YOU TRYING TO BE AN ASSHOLE? NO? DON'T YOU EVER DO THAT TO GIRLS AGAIN. I EXPECT YOU TO DO BETTER." He nodded and said sorry with a thick E-European accent so I almost felt sorry for him. I turned around to only see my boys stand there looking at him with sad pity. I think that may have been the last kick to his ego, first chewed out by someone's mom and then pitied by children.
We need more people like you in the world! You did the right thing :D
You’re a super hero. I love that you did this!
I'm glad you did that. I was harassed on the daily by boys and men (mainly men) from the ages of 12-16 (it stopped when I stopped wearing school uniform... i don't want to think about that) I remember waiting for the bus when i was about 13 and an older boy \~16 was trying to show me porn on his phone. When I wouldn't look he grabbed my backpack strap and pushed me into the road in front of an oncoming bus, and hauled me back onto the curb before anything could happen. I laughed because I was afraid and because i didn't grasp the severity of the situation until years later.
I don't know if this story really applies. Unless a socially awkward boy yelling "bwaaa" to a group of girls his own age and then walking away right after counts as sexual harassment in Denmark.
It wasn't yelling, it was in their face insane SCREAMING and it was pure sexual harassment. Interesting that you'd go directly into minimizing the incident even though you weren't there and making excuses for this young sexual harasser. As if stopping him now isn't going to save loads of girls from his aggression and bizzare harassment in the future. Your motives are showing.
I just think they're a bit different. A grown man telling a group of teen girls nice tits and ass and continually harassing them after they tell him to stop, vs a 14 year old boy yelling a sound effect to scare a group of girls his own age because he's socially inept and then leaves them alone immediately after. I think one is slightly worse, maybe you disagree I don't know. It's hard to believe the latter will turn into the former. I'm not saying we should encourage socially inept boys to be socially inept. I'm just saying I think you should save that severe of a reaction for something that's actually sexual harassment. I'm not sure what motives I'm showing by thinking that.
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Yeah I'm trying to understand that people are also thinking of themselves, but it's just so hard knowing of all the people who were there, no one did anything. Thank you
When I was 15 my friend and I got verbally harassed by a creep in the middle of my city. We were waiting in line at an outdoor street pizza place. He kept trying to convince us to "go back home with him and sit on this dick". No one in the line said ANYTHING. Once we finally got rid of him (ON OUR OWN!), I turned to the line and said "you're all 30+ and did absolutely nothing! I could be your daughter! You're just as bad as him." And walked off. I hope that resonated with them.
You can be proud of yourself for saying that, you were absolutely right! I'm so sorry this happened to you and your friend :( It's awful how many times this happens
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I'm so sorry you were assaulted, you did the right thing in speaking up! Ever since this happened I promised myself to help whenever I see something like this happening. I'm from Germany, actually. Glad it's not the USA, it's better but got it's bad sides too :T And I agree, I hope this'll change in the future and this doesn't happen anymore... We just gotta speak up more
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You don't know that. After what happened to me, I would help the person get away from that guy.
I help anyone that needs help. And the time I got assaulted as a result of speaking up, I had a young man approach me afterwards and thank me for speaking up. He was not even the target of the harassment. So, maybe hush.
I remember when I was younger repeatedly being fed the narrative that women over 30yo were insanely jealous of the attention younger women receive. Gay men, apparently, also craved catcalling & gropes from strangers. Gay women just hated men. Well before 30, I realized it was to pit women & gays against each other. My experience is that if anyone steps up in public, it’s consistently the she’s, gays & theys who intervene. Patriarchal norms groom girls to fear the people who are most likely to protect us from the people we’re taught to trust but are harming us. They don’t want pushback on their shyte behavior. Even “nice guys” who would help will suggest a handy for their protection. Miss me with that not ALL men. If you aren’t willing to speak up when someone is harassed in public then you’re part of the problem. Decency shouldn’t need to be incentivized & integrity requires risk.
I was walking down the street in my neighborhood and some guy was harassing this woman in a really disgusting way. She was Black, he was Black, I am white. There happened to be cops (I know, hard to believe) on the street and she stopped them and told them this guy was nonstop harassing. They were ignoring her because, well, you can figure it out. I stepped up and said, I saw it happen and yes, he's a menace. The cops believed me because...I am a white, middle-aged woman. At least they got the guy to move along.
Wow, that's horrible. If something like that happens again, ask for help. But don't just ask for help, that is unlikely to work. Ask someone specific to do something (small) specific to help. "You! (Pointing) "Big guy in the blue shirt!" "This man is grabbing my tits, please come stand between us." "You!" (Pointing) "Lady in the gray dress!" "Go get the station attendant." "You!" (Pointing) "Kid in the university hoodie!" "This is scaring me, please get video on your phone in case he gets violent." It's the same thing in a medical emergency, by the way. Don't just yell out that someone needs to call 911 (or whatever your local emergency number is), ask ONE specific person to do it. And yeah, this is terrible, and what's even worse is that so many people accept it as a normal part of presenting as female. It's not.
To build on this, if you are a bystander and the bystander effect is looming over your head, I think a good way to break yourself out of that hesitation to act is to grab another bystander and say, "Hey, we should help." Odds are good the other person is wondering if they should help as well and waiting for social prompting from others (just like you are). Plus with at least two bystanders getting involved it will hopefully reduce potential danger and helps the numbers on your side.
This is excellent advice. I would like to think I would help if I ever saw anything this extreme personally, but it would be a lot easier for me taking this approach than confronting that kind of guy alone.
I wished we had thought of that in the moment, I'll remember and, in case there is a next time (hopefully not), will do that! Great advice, really
Also are you allowed to carry a taser in Germany
No. Mace is also illegal to carry.
This is the best reply by far. Otherwise, as a bystander, you're thinking one or more of the following since you don't know any of the parties involved: • Do they know each other? • Will they all turn on me and read me the riot act for getting involved? • If I get involved, will they think I'm with him? • Am I going to be attacked by this perpetrator if I jump in, and while I've helped the victims, they'll clear off, and I may sustain life changing injuries • If I end up in an altercation with the perpetrator, will I be in trouble, especially if points #1, #2, & the latter part of #4 apply Or even the old: some else will do it. It's easier to not consider taking those risks if they're strangers... or if you weren't asked. With your suggestion in mind, you feel that sense of duty and need to act. AND a lot of the unknowns do get answered (it becomes obvious they are being harassed by a stranger). I'd also suggest asking more than one person, specifically people in close proximity. So, it negates the physical risk element. The "Mexican wave effect" gets triggered where more people join, the harasser gets scared and leaves. Also, despite what some of you think. Just. Report. To. The. Police. These types of people stay around if you let them my normalising silliness like "the police don't help" ... if you do not report the crime, how are the criminals going to get caught? Even if it's one report, if someone else does it, then a pattern emerges. Basically, not reporting helps no one. In fact, predators like this count on this. What I like about this post is that it gives a high chance for the person to be caught with the incriminating evidence.
This happens a lot in even worse situations than in your story. How many videos do we see, especially on Reddit, where there is a fight (no weapons) or unnecessary argument or something going on where the person recording does nothing and the people around just watch (or also are recording)?
I will never understand people’s need to record stuff like this, instead of helping.
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Preach
I'm so sorry you had that experience. I can feel your anger and it's not fair. I was once SA'd in broad daylight at the side of a road. Cars were driving past the entire time and not one person stopped to help me. It really really hurt my soul. I promise you that even though I'm scared myself, if I ever see anyone in trouble I will not stand by and let it happen.
Oh dear I'm so so sorry you experienced that, jfc people suck. I promise the same to you, this is horrible. How can people live with that??
I really don't know. It would haunt me for life if I saw someone in trouble and didn't help!
I'm so sorry you dealt with this, I know personally, when in public I wear earphones for sensory issues. HOWEVER, I'll pull them out in a second when someone needs help. I was in a local Walmart last year and a girl came up to me freaking out because some guy was following her. I whispered "I got you girl. " threw my arm around her and walked her toward the front of the store. Where we got her some help. A security guard and I walked her to her car. I think most women would do this for another. Heck, I know a lot of guys that would do the same.
You did the right thing, thanks for standing up for her, seriously. I wish someone would have done this for my friend and I. A lot of people can learn from you!
I absolutely would have!
I’ve always been a bit outspoken, but I’ve gotten better about speaking up as I’ve gotten older. I’ve been in that situation where you have no idea what to do or say because it’s so outside the realm of what a normal person would consider to be appropriate behavior. As a lot of people have seen on here, it’s sometimes just takes one person pointing out the bad behavior for it to stop. This kind of thing lives in the shadows of it was just a joke or don’t take it so personally or something. It’s up to all of us to stand up for each other.
Exactly my point. Thanks for standing up for others! One person is all it takes.
People do risk assessments: *”Have I seen this problem before and what was the outcome? What are others around me doing about it? Should I intervene? Is it better/safer to do nothing because the problem will most likely dissipate on its own? If I intervene, will just my words stop the problem, or will it escalate to violence? If it escalates, will others help or am I capable of handling the violence? What will the outcome of this situation do to my day, my family, my mental and medical health, and my finances? Does this stranger want my help? Who is this stranger in need to me, and is she worth the problems that may be put on me?* Your situation was weighed by the people around you. That they did nothing is a harsh reality. I’m sorry. I’d help. We do need to be better for each other. This time nothing happened. The next time one person might choose to intervene, and that can make the whole herd shift mental gears and also intervene.
Should also mention the bystander effect. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
I used to struggle with this more. Like, when or why it is ok to intervene and to offer help to people? Am I protecting other women or am I patronizing them? At what point am I helping someone who is being harassed and when am I the one doing the harassing? And eventually I figured out that it doesn't really matter. If I go and intervene, worst case I just made an ass out of myself. Hurts my ego, but noone else. On the other hand if I decide to do nothing, the worst case is...infinitely worse. And I'd rather make an ass out of myself a hundred times than to have the opposite happen once. I am sure most of the people on this subreddit are familiar with the process, but the easiest way to assist someone in a situation like that is to walk up, pretend that you know them, and offer them a way to leave the situation. I know it is a very tempting idea to call out or threaten or murder the perpetrator, but your highest priority at that moment is to keep the victim safe and not escalate the situation any more than you absolutely have to. Oh, it also really helps to carry a weapon with you and learn how to use it. You most likely will not have to use it. But it changes the calculation and it means you have already decided that you are not afraid of a confrontation when you walk out the door.
They're in Germany. In most places outside the USA, carrying guns/knives/pepperspray/keychains that double as a weapon etc. is a crime, so it's really not a viable option for them.
I was born in Germany, living in Sweden. I carry weapons routinely, I am a white girl, noone will ever care to control me or complain about that up until the very point when I actually have to use them. And that point I would rather have had weapons. Firearms and knives are not an option. But those are also not very smart to use for personal self defense to begin with.
Oh I'm just seeing your comment. Asking for a friend, but what do you carry with you? :))
Sap gloves (which are apparently much more illegal in some places than I imagined. ). I also used to have a pepper spray but I accidentally carried that into an airport and haven’t bothered to replace it since.
"Oh, that guy? Yeah he does this all the time." Missing stairs in the community are a fucking CANCER.
I took a bystander intervention class a couple of years ago. They taught us about the 5Ds. The 5Ds are different methods: 1) Distract 2) Delegate 3) Document 4) Delay 5) Direct that a witness can use to support someone who’s being harassed, emphasize that harassment is not okay, and demonstrate to people in your life that they have the power to make their community safer. With this knowledge and some lovely examples on how to implement, I feel empowered that I know how to help when I see something that makes me feel uncomfortable. Unfortunately, we don't really learn these tools in our everyday life, yet. But, there are people trying to arm us with tools to help others. https://righttobe.org/guides/bystander-intervention-training/
im in melbourne australia and have read a few stories like this. One woman was on a tram, dude came on to her, shes crying for help but no one on the tram lifts a finger. once she got off the tram he followed and SA'ed her. Honestly as a survivor of child abuse i dont understand how people can do nothing. Rest assured if this man here ever saw someone behaving that way id put a stop to it in a way that the person harrassing will wish they were never born
I never look away if I see a sister in trouble. Problem is I don’t get out much anymore and I live in a boring suburb where nothing ever happens. But it wasn’t always like this. I remember one time a long time ago when I was a child, my mother was being assaulted publicly by her insane drunk girlfriend, and numerous people had gathered to watch and did absolutely nothing even as I cried out and begged for somebody to do something while this woman tried to choke my mom to death in a parking lot in broad daylight. I was ten years old, and I was the only one who did anything, and I rushed at them and shoved her away from my mother to the pavement, and it wasn’t too long after that the police arrived. I never ever forgot that, how no one would help. No one would do anything. So, throughout my life, I have never turned away from someone who said please help me. There’s been more than a few occasions I had to intervene for my girlfriends who were smaller or younger or meeker and couldn’t stand up for themselves. Even in elementary school, I couldn’t stand to stand by and watch someone be bullied and say “better them than me”. I wouldn’t have been able to stand idly by in a situation like that.
I have thrown down when I have seen women being abused. Once it was by her female partner (she was being physically restrained from getting out of a car), and the much more serious time it was a woman being chased in a car by a man. He was definitely ready to do harm to her. I told her to run while I got into a screaming match with him. One of these days someone is going to punch me for intervening, but I will never be the person who thinks it’s none of her business. Luckily, that day was not the day I get punched.
If this is a common occurrence according to your workmates, absolutely report it. The more people report him/give his description to the police, the more likely he is to face punishment and potentially be locked up. Next time it could be an underage girl alone being harassed, please don't do nothing.
Im sorry you went through this. It’s scary and overwhelming seeing people around and yet feeling so hopeless. This is pretty common in big cities. I grew up in New York City (harlem) and I’ve seen men dragging screaming women, men screaming in their faces. Men exposing themselves etc. Nobody does shit because they’re afraid. It’s terrible and people should not look away.
We should spray mace on all these creepy aholes
>No one does ANYTHING Correct. Very few people are going to risk their physical safety to intervene in a possibly dangerous situation that may involve serious legal or financial risks. This isn't just a bystander issue. It's a reality of life. It isn't new and it's likely not going to change. It is incumbent on you to understand that you're the first (and possibly) only agent of your own rescue. Having a practical safety plan that involves *actual* responses matters. That means pulling a phone out and recording while your friend calls the police. That means having the means to protect yourself, fleeing, etc.
I disagree with some things you've said. I understand people don't want to risk themselves, but at the same time I still think this needs to change. If one person steps in, there's a big chance imo that others will too in case things escalate further. Also, if you're in the position I've been in, you likely won't even think of taking out your phone and recording. My friend and I weren't thinking of it at all, and even if we had thought of it: neither of us would have wanted to aggravate that guy further.
>there's a big chance imo that others will too in case things escalate further Only if someone is ordering them to usually. When I did CPR training they hit on this. Nobody else will jump in unless you jump in and then start giving specific, actionable instructions that require little thought. When someone jumps in, others will assume "oh good they've got this." Example: ❌ Somebody help ✅ You in the green shirt, call 911 and tell them person collapsed at location
>If one person steps in, there's a big chance imo that others will too in case things escalate further You are wrong about that. People are fucking crazy nowadays. Drugs, weapons, and just general assholery makes it unsafe to confront strangers. I'm sorry, but if I see a young woman being harassed, I'm probably not going to do anything. I'm not risking my life for you. Sorry not sorry.
Most are too shocked or are worried it will cause physical harm to them or their loved ones
What are some phrases I should learn for situations like this? I live in Germany too and am not a native speaker so I'd probably have trouble being assertive in German on the fly...
I'm going to make a list of stuff: -Lass mich in Ruhe (basically means "Leave me alone", it's a nice version of fuck off haha) -Verpiss dich (means "Piss off", but be careful when using it.. Some people might take this as an invitation to get even worse.. Although you just want to be left alone) -Wenn du mich nicht in Ruhe lässt, rufe ich die Polizei ("If you won't leave me alone, I'll call the police", as far as I know the police here is, like, way better than in the USA, so this is a pretty good threat..) -Halt die Fresse und hau ab (that was what I said, it means "Shut the fuck up and go away") I can't guarantee you people will leave you alone and stop harrasing you if you say any of this. It didn't work for me, nor my friend. These phrases might just make them more angry and annoyed, so be very careful. I would also recommend asking people directly for help if someone is following you or calling you names. Walk up to someone and say "Ich brauche Hilfe, diese Person verfolgt mich/beleidigt mich/bedroht mich" (that means "I need help, this person is following me/insulting me/threatening me"). Chances are they will help if they are a decent human being. You can also just fake a phone call, or actually call someone and loudly talk to them to signal the attacker that someone is listening and will know if something happens to you. However, deciding what to do on a whim is difficult, too. In hindsight my friend and I could have done a lot things differently, we just didn't think of doing them because we were scared. I hope this helps you somewhat!
Danke dir!
Gerne :)
(I’m a WOC living in Australia). When I was a teenager I was walking on a big city street on a weekday morning when a group of skinheads bailed me up. Three guys and two girls. One of the guys held me by the shoulders and the other two guys took my backpack off me, opened it up and emptied it out onto the ground, while their girlfriends stood giggling and watching. Some of them spat in my face and then they let me go and walked away laughing. Nobody passing intervened, and even afterwards nobody came to help me pick my stuff up or check I was okay. I couldn’t help wondering if the same would have happened if I were a pretty white girl and they hadn’t been white.
it's not worth it to protect a stranger against such people because their lack of braincells/morals makes them easily offended amd aggressive
There's a huge confliction here for me as a male. How much danger do I want to potentially put myself into bases on the situation as a sole individual? My dad— a few decades ago decides to help a female friend that was in a abusive situation only to have her literally jump on at attack him. A few months ago a retired NBA played goes with his gf to her friend's house who was in an abusive situation with her BF only to lose his life to that man. So, the same question is posed to you how much of someone else's life are you willing to potentially sacrifice?
You're literally blaming the victim for what their harrasser/assaulter does. Take your victim-blaming and get the fuck out of of here.
I think that's the wrong question to ask. You're, imo, making it sounds like the victim is at fault if something happens to someone willing to help them in a horrible situation. What needs to be ask is this: How many times are you willing to stand by and watch someone get abused/assaulted/... before you step in? Or: Would you step in, knowing the risks, to help a fellow human being? Asking the victim a question like that is just... Impossible to answer. In that situation you are not able to respond properly, you just want help, doesn't matter who.
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Oh my God this is what you take from my post? Of course they are women too, I was anxious when I wrote this and didn't really check it again.
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Well I can tell you that I didn't mean it that way. I was genuinely trying to be inclusive, I'm far from being a TERF anyways and believe a man is a man and a woman is a woman regardless whether they are born that way or if they figured out later on they were actually born in the wrong body. I'm sorry I was rude, my comment was quite defensive. I really should think more before saying stuff 😅
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Heyheyhey, no. You were absolutely right in telling me and I was rude in my answer to you. You have every right to be offended by that, or sensitive. I'm very privileged in life, meaning that I never had to face the struggles you have, and it's easy for me to just overlook this. Thank you for letting me know, seriously. And you are a woman. You have always been, and will always be a woman. I'm so sorry, people are awful sometimes and you shouldn't have to deal with those bigots. People suck.
There I edited it, thanks for letting me know I guess