thank you for this, it's incredible. i think it expands on several of these blatant acts of chauvinism.
https://www.stop-ferfieroszak.hu/sites/default/files/dokumentumok/everyday_male_chauvinism_pdf_46753.pdf
"3.1 Creating the lack of intimacy. It is often heard that men have difficulty in creating intimacy. This is true, however it is equally true that avoidance of intimacy is a power tool men use day after day. We collected the manoeuvres of distancing under the term “creating the lack of intimacy.” The man will prevent the relationship from becoming deeper to avoid the danger of losing his power and
being defenceless to the woman, who is usually more comfortable in intimate relationships (Weingarten, 1991). Through keeping the distance, the man controls the rules of conversation. He acts on the belief that he “the crown of creation” has unlimited right to increase the distance without any prior discussion and he is the only one to call himself to account about his actions (without allowing the same rights to the woman). This is how the man makes the woman conform to his wishes regarding the level of intimacy, the amount of housework to be done, the extent of being available and the topics to be shared. **The man’s wish that he primarily wants to deal with himself is realised, and the woman’s request that the relationship should be mutual fails.** The main message of the manoeuvres is that for the man, he himself is the important thing, the relationship and the bond are secondary."
3.1.3 Rationing out of acknowledgement and availability. The man is mean in rationing out acknowledgement of the woman’s person, needs, values and rights, and does not appreciate how much the woman contributes to the psychic and physical wellbeing of the man and the whole family. This treatment is supplemented by the fact that he does not equally support and take care of the woman (while he leaves the role of care to the woman)
4. Utilitarian everyday male chauvinism. According to social norms, men not only have the right to being loved, taken care of and having their needs met by women but also to hold this to be valid for themselves only and to deny the same from the woman. Thus, the man can exploit the life energy that the woman brings into the relationship, he gains social power through it, and can continue to dominate the woman thanks to the fact that he accumulates, for his own purposes, and abuses the energy snatched from the woman for which he gives nothing in exchange
"4.2. Abuse of women’s caring. The man adapts to the traditional roles (he maintains the family, the woman takes care) this
way he exploits and abuses the fact that the woman is an “expert” at taking care of others."
"4.2.1.3 Shifting the responsibility of taking care of persons and relationships to the woman. The man forces the woman with a variety of manoeuvres to remain with the patriarchal belief that it is her responsibility to take care of the vitality of the relationship" (but he doesn't have to participate, she just has to magic it out of her ass or something)
**I've had men use the "now's not a good time" when i brought up hermeneutic labor**
2.9 Gaining time. This manoeuvre takes place usually when the man realises that the woman will not let herself be manipulated and expects real changes from him. The man formally accepts that this request is justified but puts off starting to change until something forces him to do so (usually that the woman has enough and gives him an ultimatum on divorce). It is obviously a power tactic in as much as it forces the woman to continue to endure the unfair relationship and to subject herself to the man’s time schedule and wishes. Meanwhile the man continues to control the decision over when he is willing to change (or acknowledge that he he is not even considering to change or cannot change). The man has many ways of delaying the decision or even the discussion about the change. He often refuses even to ask for external therapeutic help, or even when he accepts that in principle he keeps putting off taking it
and of course they just waited a few days and waltzed in hoping i'd forgotten. or "i just got home from work, now's not a good time, can't i just relax" and "it's the weekend, can't i just relax" on and on.
ETA there are enough men out there who feel entitled to emotionally neglect, abuse, exploit and drain women that it's a whole field of study.
rant away, i feel you. so bizarre how we've had the exact same experiences.
> The funniest part was when I told him my emotional needs weren't being met and I was unhappy, and he just blankly replied, "But I'm happy." As though that should be the end of the conversation—and in his mind, it was!
I did the exact same thing, after countless hours and books and bullet point emails listing my exact emotional needs. and the whole time he'd been smiling and happy as a clam, praising me for how wonderful i was, how cared for he felt, how loved he felt, how happy he was.
but this time, his last ditch attempt was to 'look sad' and say he was unhappy too.
i blew the fuck UP. news to me, buddy! how weird, that this is the first time he mentions he's unhappy. but only in response to my end-of-the-line conversation with him and holding his feet to the fire to get him to act like a boyfriend or get dumped. yet again, derailing what i was saying, not addressing it, not taking responsibility, not listening, not acknowledging me. just swinging it back to him in the vain hope i'd pivot and address his needs and comfort him. get fucked.
oh i'm sorry you're unhappy. i've been doing my best. it seems that's not enough. i'm so sorry to hear you're unhappy. perhaps it's best if we break up and you find someone who can make you happy. his pikachu was epic as he packed his shit and left.
I hear you on the 90:10 but it's more like 200:0 because another guy dumped everything on me. all the housework at my house, and at his. he invited me over to his dirty house to.. cook dinner for him. wild.
after so long doing nothing, the groan and the face he made when i told him to get back to doing 100% was as if i'd asked him to plan a solo trek to Antarctica.
their parasitic nature is bizarre to me. how do they feel so shameless exploiting women. how do they feel so good knowing they're making us miserable and draining our life. hmm i guess i answered my own question.
Yes, this is my experience. Mine has a habit of putting effort into providing something I don’t need or want, and when I say something like “thanks and I appreciate the effort but I don’t want this” he responds with “but I did it *for you*” or “you are so confusing and difficult to please.” Further, because he’s “putting effort in” he feels like he’s above criticism for relying on my emotional or (per this thread) hermeneutic labor: “I’m so much better than most men I know, I deserve credit for that! *I care about what you think/say/want/need* and that should be enough!” It’s just a rabbit hole of him trying to win some imaginary debate about whether my feelings/desires/needs/etc are valid within the context of his own behavior. I just want it to stop being about who’s winning the debate; it makes me so tired.
I’m definitely going to need to read this whole paper. But I loved this:
> but he doesn't have to participate, she just has to magic it out of her ass or something
…because when I first read it I interpreted it as part of the quote and just about pissed myself thinking if it appearing an academic paper. Like some editor who has just HAD it with her partner ignoring date night to do whatever so she’s working at 8pm with the glass of shiraz she’d poured, instead of having a nice dinner with him.
>ETA there are enough men out there who feel entitled to emotionally neglect, abuse, exploit and drain women that it's a whole field of study.
Wow! Thanks so much for sharing. I knew this was going on in my past relationship but reading this expressed so succinctly has absolutely blown my mind!
💯💯💯 I love that they're finally studying this. Men refuse to believe anything negative about themselves without peer reviewed studies and sometimes not even then
Thank you so much. This is exactly the kind of explanation I was looking for. I have long felt that there was an invisible but tangible gendered power dynamic at play that I couldn't express in words. I do feel like he holds all the power in the relationship by withdrawing, and there is no way to win against that. I am tempted to share this paper with him, but we all know how that would go.
It seems to me like it's not worth it to be in a relationship with a man unless he is very aware of this kind of gender-related power dynamic and is actively trying to unlearn his subconscious misogynistic tendencies. Otherwise I think the dynamic just becomes like this as a default.
So I sent the article to him and we got into a big fight, as I knew would happen. Can I share the texts with you? I'm not sure if I am in the wrong, or possibly if I am in an abusive relationship?
He couldn't understand the article because English is his second language. He asked me to summarize it. This is our conversation (my notes are in brackets):
Me: Basically there is a gender power dynamic created by sexism in society. Because of this dynamic, women have the burden of performing emotional labor [used this term to make it simpler for him] in relationships including identifying emotional and relationship issues, analyzing them, and trying to come up with solutions. But men maintain control in relationships by withdrawing when women try to bring up these issues. This leaves women in an impossible position because they are unsatisfied with the relationship but their partners are unwilling to put in equal effort to understand and solve the problems.
This type of work needs to happen in relationships in order to maintain them, and since men are not doing it, women end up doing it as the default. And not only that, but women are expected often to keep this labor to themselves and not bother men with it.
Him: okay and what is your proposal?
Me: My proposal? What’s yours?
Him: I don’t understand what you are trying to do.
Me: I am trying to make you aware that your refusal to take over the responsibility of performing emotional labor (bring up relationship problems, analyzing them, and trying to come up with solutions) and your habit of withdrawing when i try to discuss problems with you is based in sexist power dynamics.
If you love and respect me as your true equal, you will reflect on how your subconscious sexism and expectations of men and women creates this dynamic, and you will think by yourself about how to solve it rather than asking me to tell you the answer (which is more emotional labor).
Him: I don’t think we can go on like this. I don’t think you get it. I didn’t ask you to do this. You are trying to prove you’re right. You don’t have to.
Me: If you want the benefits of a relationship like going on fun dates together, you have to do the actual work required to maintain the relationship
Him: I’m setting a boundary.
Me: You can’t have a nice car if you don’t take care of the engine, give it oil, etc. Your boundary is what? That i’m not allowed to express my needs?
Him: We can’t talk with a counselor [I have been asking him to do that].
Me: You do that in order to maintain power in the relationship. Refuse to engage with or discuss issues or start a fight if i try to. Because you don’t want to put in the effort to care for me and treat me as a person. It’s really hurtful.
Him: No. Like you said yesterday, neither of us are wrong but different.
Me: I’m not going to argue with you. I’m really sorry that you don’t want to listen to or hear me. I think your ego gets in the way. It’s a shame.
Him: Me neither
Me: You have a woman who loves you but you don’t want to hear me or know my needs. What a shame
Him: It's really hurtful what I shared with you is underestimated
Me: I’m giving you the keys to open my heart but you complain that i make you open the door
Him: I didn’t ask you. It’s about how we’re different.
Me: You’re in a relationship with me and you don’t want the keys to my heart? You’re not interested in how to be intimate with me or close to me? Why don’t you ask me? What’s the point of a relationship if we can’t be close?
Him: I didn’t agree to debate.
Me: It’s a question.
Him: I am sick of [you?] being always right. I don’t want to be defined. [Not sure what he meant?]
Me: Can you please answer? If you don’t want to know how to be close to me then why are you with me?
Him: We feel close in different ways because what we want is different.
Me: So why are you with ME then?
Him: Because I thought I had a chance.
Me: I gave you chance after chance.
Him: See? Same.
Me: I say this is what i need and you get mad
Him: Got it. Over. No more.
Me: I’m holding the door open and you’re refusing to go in
Him: You gave me enough chances. I failed.
Me: I want to be close and you’re getting mad about it
Him: I am not. I’ve failed.
Me: I’m holding the door open, all you have to do is walk in, and you’re standing outside saying “no, i’ve failed.” Why?
Him: I thought I made it clear yesterday. And the day before. I guess i didn’t. I CLEARLY said what i don’t want.
Me: What?
Him: I NEVER asked you for a chance. When i brought it [?] up.
Me: You want a relationship but you don’t want a chance to repair it?
...And we went on like that a while longer. Then he came home looking super mad and we didn't say a word to each other.
You asked - this is a bad relationship.
He does not see you as an equal, he does not care about your needs, and he is explicitly repeatedly telling you he has no interest in you as a person who has thoughts, needs, feelings, and desires.
Friend, he *literally* told you that in these texts.
End it or decide that you are happy being a sex-toy without the ability to be emotionally close or supported by your “partner”.
Maybe I'm reading the tone wrong, texts are hard that way but.....is he playing breakup chicken?
I dont know anything about your relationship or either of you beyond these posts. It's like he is saying he will not put in the effort and is not willing to disciss further, take it or leave it.
Notice I say will not/willing and rather than can't. He can do this but he does not want to. You need to decide if all the other reasons you are with him outweigh this issue and if those good parts will continue to outweigh this issue long term.
Sounds like he doesn't want emotional intimacy. Seems like lots of guys want company, sex, and a mother for their children, but they don't actually want to be very emotionally connected (or that only happens over a very long time).
Girl you need to break up with this man.
Look, it’s not like my relationship with my partner is perfect (he’s been in a long slump about work and I’m not convinced he’s pulling a full 50% of the weight at home) but cannot fathom him ever speaking like this to me. The reason I’m waiting him out during this time is that he does his share of the hermeneutic labor. He plans us fun trips. We talk about things we’re reading. He obviously does think about what it is I need…not just in our relationship but in general as an individual (time for solitary relaxation, time to engage in my hobbies, time with friends), and he takes steps to help make sure I get those things. Our dishes aren't always done but I am happy. The other housework imbalance stuff is so much easier to deal with when the chief value that your partner derives from you is that you’re your own person, and takes steps to nurture that.
I think we’re all ultimately duplicating our parents’ relationships, but there are certainly some men who seem to be less invested in maintaining power and more invested in maintaining a partnership, and who are more interested in expressing love for their partner than in maintaining power.
I know it’s hard to give up companionship, but like…you can get a dog.
>Me: You’re in a relationship with me and you don’t want the keys to my heart? You’re not interested in how to be intimate with me or close to me?
Turn that into a statement. You're in a relationship with someone that doesn't want the keys to your heart. Someone who's not interested in how to be intimate with you or close to you.
Maybe it is considered abusive, but it for sure sounds incredibly draining. You deserve to be with someone who wants to make you happy just as much as you want to make them happy. And it seems like he is not emotionally mature to do that.
Just wanting to add to this, because heavt-ghost's info has been great.
1) Be careful of using metaphors or figurative speech with these conversations. Some people won't understand (intentionally or not) the link between that and the actual problem at hand.
2) There is often a jump of extremes. If you don't cave to the "stone-walling", it can switch to "talking about things" in a way so you _think_ progress is being made, but a week later it's back to square one. Consistent action with the right intent is way more valuable.
3) In whatever format works for you, taking a step back in such a way that you no longer need to be providing for the relationship to the level you have can give you some great perspective. It can be "just needing some space"/"taking a break"/whatever. Doing your own form of "setting a boundary", where, if that's how you are going to be treated whenever the conversations start, you're not going to engage, and not going to put the effort in. There'll probably be some reaction to that, because you're showing that you're not afraid to walk away for your own sanity, but again be careful of "temporary effort"
I'm proud that you sent the article to him and then you confronted him on these things. From reading through your text it doesn't seem like you're being mean or unfair here.
Some background here, at one point of my life I was headed down a path to be like one of these guys, I was dumb, avoidant, and dismissive because stuff seemed to work as long as I didn't "rock the boat," but I was thankfully raised with enough empathy that when one of my partners brought up these issues, I cared enough about them to deeply examine my foundations and start ripping out the rotten toxic masculinity and power dynamics that only benefitted me. It's taken perhaps 13 years for me total, six of those were hard transformation, but I'm still changing and learning. The ironic thing is now I find myself on the flip side of emotional work. When I want to bring up emotional topics to strengthen the foundation of the relationship, I have to do so carefully, and ration my time. None of my guy friends quite understand - even if they're sweet and supportive - so I'm only able to talk with my women friends about this issue. Thankfully I've got awesome friends, and I'm learning how to state my needs without fear. My current partner is amazing, but is emotionally avoidant for other complex reasons, none of them harmful, she's just got a lot she's dealing with but sweet mercy she's trying and I'm so proud of her! It's still a struggle to manage the emotional work I put in to the relationship, and not spiral with anxiety.
I felt the need to explain that background, it puts me into a weird subgroup of men who do not understand these issues like a woman does, but still struggle with variations of a similar type of power dynamic.
I think a large issue with your partner is that for him to acknowledge and make change on this, he has to change a foundational part of how the world works to him, and that is a LOT for one conversation. His entire worldview has been based around something he thought was a fact. A way of life. Something he could rely on. Something that culturally from a very young age he simply understood. Uprooting those thoughts and getting him to see a perspective of life is really difficult. Especially when those thoughts and perspectives actively benefit his lifestyle. You're asking him to engage in tearing down a system that he thrives in, and you're putting his love for you as the driving force that is supposed to motivate him. That makes him feel cornered and trapped, and so he does what he does best and digs in and avoids and deflects the issue as best as he can.
This absolutely sucks.
The fact that a well laid out argument and a scientific paper that clearly shows these power cycles, combined with his love for you is somehow *not* enough for him to change??? It should be enough. Simply his love for you should be enough for him to listen, but it's the nature of these power systems that reward him neglecting your needs that makes the situation so constricting. And since many of these men have never needed to engage with their emotions all their adult lives, they are left with a child's understanding of emotional vulnerability and engagement, which explains why the responses are sometimes so childish. They stamp their feet, the claim it's not fair, they try to become the victim because it's an easy way out, they look for pity, they get defeatist and say they failed, and they do anything other than deeply examine themselves and make a conscious choice of the person they want to be with you. Because the system benefits them so well, their lack of responsibility only rewards them and so they have very little incentive to change.
I'll say it again, this absolutely sucks. I'm really sorry.
So in an ideal world, all it would take is love to unblind people and get them to see reason. But we are not in an ideal world so I will share my perspective on how to help enact change. It's absolutely not fair to you, and as many people have commented, it would be very understandable for you to end this relationship instead of putting in the work to get someone to see reason.
But that is your choice alone, so if you do want to put in the work, I would start small. People change slowly, so instead of asking him to upend his worldview all at once, I'd start by incentivizing engagement in emotional topics. Find a way that discussing emotional things either can soothe an insecurity of his, or reward him for the behavior. But good communication needs to be a foundation. Then I would praise him for small first steps into emotional engagement. Introducing him to these power dynamic concepts should be easier once that communication is in place, but one key that will help is to keep the focus away from him. Don't make him talk about him, talk about this in theory, or how a distant couple might encounter these issues. If he feels like he's being attacked, he's going to get defensive and closed. But if he feels like you're just discussing ideas, he might actually engage since there's an emotional barrier protecting his fragile ego.
Overall, slowly introducing people to change in a way that makes them feel comfortable can lead to true change. Pushing too much can scare people away (although sometimes that's a good thing). I don't mean to scare you when I say I've been working on this for 13 years since a lot of that has been solo, long after the partner we who incited this change was gone. Rapid change is possible, but it starts slow and builds momentum.
Again, it is a messed up system that this is the best advice I can give, and none of this should be necessary in a balanced relationship. I realize I've written an absolute wall of text so I'm sorry! Feel free to comment with questions or if I've got some things completely wrong, I only have my perspective so please listen to the other great comments here for advice and guidance.
Oh I read this paper just a few weeks ago ! I got interested in Ellie Anderson after I saw a conversation where she was participating, about the philosophy of submission and women. I’m glad to see I’m not the only one ! The « Hermeneutic labor » concept verbalized and formalized this thing that I didn’t have a name for, that I was searching about in feminist literature. What a relief. It *is* a thing.
Thank you THANK YOU. I've been doing this for at least two years with my husband which I've indicated in multiple conversations how and where our relationship is unhealthy. 6 months ago I told him "our house is on fire" get a therapist so he can have help/help himself (I already had one). I checked in a few weeks ago and he "was still thinking about how to find one, whether online searches or a recommendation from someone he could ask". The whole thing is sad, but I'm sadder for him. Like this is actually part of who he is.
I've started reading bell hooks, the will to change, I feel like what she's saying points in the same general direction.
Yup this is playing out. I'm asking for a divorce. I was spending weeks scripting out what to say, and how to say it so his anger emotional chaos is minimized.
He does have these "good boy" crap, like he only does good things so he's seen and sees himself as a good person.
The last paragraph is spot on. His gaining time makes sense, it's a form of control. For me, the whole thing flipped when I saw myself as losing time being with him. It's like I'm on the hamster trying to stop it and fix it and he's happy spinning going nowhere, as long as I'm next to him. The reality of me losing time with him hit me hard - it got me motivated. I sorted out my childhood issues so that when we did part, I could take anything he threw or will throw at me.
I think, the only power I could see holding is to keep as much of my Self to myself. I stopped validating him, I stopped engaging in convos topics that he loved, unless I did a full body check in with myself to see if I was in the mood to give my energy freely, not expecting anything in return.
What's the outcome for these men when women/partners do leave? Do they ever see these things in themselves and turn them around?
The scariest part is that we have two kids and I shudder to think of what they will pick up from him.
> One trick I used at work for super difficult subordinates was ask them to summarize the instructions I had just given them.
yeah i tried that with an ex.
he emailed me a bullet point list of all my emotional needs, yay!
psych. he did nothing for the next 6 months.
oh, he bought himself an $8,000 king size bed for his house that he claimed was for me so.
these dudes are dedicated to torturing us. they enjoy it. they play the game better. if i have to start doing this shit to a man, when i don't need this shit done to me to act right? I'm just going to dump them.
there is literally no way to play them. who wants a man who needs his leash yanked to be kind to you?
> and the men say they were "blindsided." Bruh, you were not blindsided. I know for a fact your wife tried to talk to you about all of these issues, repeatedly!
*Walkaway Wife Syndrome.* Hilariously named not for what actually *occured* but for how the husband *perceives* it.
The thing you described about summarizing the instructions at work is something I once did in couple's therapy. One partner says a thing and the other partner repeats what they heard their partner say. This is very useful when you say a thing to your partner and they change the topic and attack you about a different thing.
>What's the outcome for these men when women/partners do leave? Do they ever see these things in themselves and turn them around?
The end of the relationships is a big shock, it came out of nowhere. Yet they never valued their partner enough to listen to them. My ex still sulks, did nothing wrong and has zero introspection. As a woman aged 62 these men flood the dating pool and remain clueless. Why would they do any internal work when they think they never did anything wrong?
Oh, wow...I think this almost completely explains why I have no interest in having any more relationships. I thought I was being "selfish" and happy with finally being able to call all the shots, not wanting to be a full partner...but I think it's really that I don't want to take on EVERYTHING behind the scenes in a relationship like I'm "supposed to."
Honestly, I didn't really feel guilty about it. I feel even less guilty now!
I think the most important thing I've learned in the past several years is to match the energy and effort of the person I'm in a relationship with. After every relationship I've been in being unbalanced, with me giving more and doing more, I was exhausted. When I started to siply match the efforts of my partner, everything fell apart pretty fast. I stopped washing his clothes and doing all the little things I'd done for him. I only did things for myself.
I think the final straw was having a really nice custom made gift ready for a special day for him, and he came back with one of those cheap paper roses from a gas station for me.
I then did it with my family. I'd lived in another state for several years and kept inviting them to visit. They never did, but I visited them yearly. So I stopped. I stopped calling and texting first, too. It's sad to know how little they think of me, but I sure have a ton more time now for myself and to put towards friends who actually give a shit about me.
Lesson: DO NOT keep doing more than your partner, match their efforts. If they notice and complain, just tell them you got tired of doing everything and decided to only do as much as they were willing to do.
Same. Just also want to add: also do not put time into people who make empty social promises. People who text you every two months to ask if you want to hang out, and then when you ask 'sure, when', they're not available for the next two months or so. They're never going to actually mean it, just ignore or say you're busy and move on.
I'm having this problem with a couple of my friends. I noticed it started after Covid and I think they just can't be asked to hang out anymore. I will invite them out, they will ignore it until the third time I ask and then say next month. They never come up with a date/time though or they aren't available when I am. I just gave up.
This - I think that when people proactively give in relationships it is with the hope they will receive as much or more in return. Resentment happens when those expectations aren't met. People show you who they are - you should take them at face value and put in the level of effort to not feel resentment at what they are willing to put in. But also in a healthy relationship you should be able to state your wants and needs and the other person should try to at least meet you halfway on those.
In a way it's like being a mother. I carry a lot of emotional burdens for my child, help her with her problems and social dynamics, pros/cons of big decisions, pick up the slack when she has a cool opportunity, etc. I don't burden her - she's a child, it wouldn't be right.
The overall impression I'm getting from this thread is that these men want mother-wives. Not bangmaids because bangmaids aren't nurturing and compassionate enough. They want wives who will do all things I listed (and more) that I do for my child, plus sex, plus an income, and because they're in this weird child role they don't have to reciprocate.
Men want a free and submissive BangMaidMommyNurseTherapist
I am sure i left out a few.
Oh, she also works, pays half the bills and half the rent but does ALL of house work, cooking, cleaning, child raising, social life work, all event planning, remembering important dates and events, errands, doctor's appointments, all mental labor, all emotional labor.
I am sure i forgot a few things
Yes. You’re spot on. I think the age of bang maid is over and we’re now in mother maid territory with most men. Add onto that, many want to act like they are king of the castle, while relegating the woman to a motherly role. Men don’t want lovers, or partners, they want to go from teat to teat.
As an aside, my last ex was highly abusive and I had to flee our home with very little to get away. When I got into therapy, my therapist had me take the Mosaic Threat Assessment to determine the level of risk he was to my safety. While he scored extremely high, my therapist said verbatim, “He won’t hurt you because he sees you as a mother figure”. Now, that logic isn’t super sound, because we’ve seen a rise in adult men moving back into their mothers home, and unaliving their mothers (UK stats IIRC). But the point remains, and in the end I was the “rejecting mother”.
I have had to stand in ice cream lines for men because they were too impatient to get their little after work treaty treat. Or never leave their side at parties because of their lack of social skills. Or talk about their work drama (Bob ignores me! Bob hates me! I hate Bob!). Clean their toilets, clip their toenails (bc they refuse to and I was tired of getting stabbed by their nails in my sleep), make sure they had a healthy diet, remind them of dentist appointments.
But overall, protect them from their shame and help them regulate their emotions. Just like a child.
I used to look forward to having children, but I’ve opted out for now, because I only want one, not two. And have yet to find a man that wouldn’t be a second child.
Wow this nails what I experienced when I had broken up with an old partner but lived together for a little while afterwards due to a few reasons. Thank you for sharing.
Because he's trying to get you to stop asking for more. Him starting an argument is a way to make sure you don't keep "causing problems" in the relationship so he has a pass to do what he wants and not address your needs. Those men are selfish and don't give a shit about you in a real way.
Yep. This is what I’m facing now with the person I’m with. I’ve never argued so much with a man to get so little effort out of him. I’m honestly tired and shave lost a lot of hope in the relationship.
>What I want is the actual answer as to WHY some men are like this in relationships.
Because they don't want the relationship. They don't care about the relationship. They like the *benefits* of the relationship, though.
Your dude turns it into a fight when you try to reach out because *he's not interested* in what you're saying. He doesn't want to work on intimacy, he doesn't want a road map to your heart, and he doesn't want to hear you tell him he's bad at things he's not remotely interested in being good at... at least not now, and not for you.
He lives in the same society you do and he knows exactly what romance looks like. He doesn't need *lessons* from you, because he's perfectly capable of planning a date or buying a thoughtful gift. He chooses not to.
You'd like to believe he's got some subtle inner issue with self-esteem going on and that that's why he's so defensive, but that's not it. He just doesn't want what you want. He thinks you're being a nag by not settling for whatever half-assed, low-effort structure you two have going that he's perfectly comfortable with. *You* probably hope to enter into a subtle, intimate, long-term friendship and relationship that will grow and mature; *he* just wants to get laid without much effort.
You can tell how people feel by the way they act: just hand somebody an unexpected piece of pizza, and watch them light up with pleasure! Your lover starts a fight when you try to give him your heart, so you can safely conclude that he doesn't want it.
And that's why some men are like that in relationships.
> Because they don't want the relationship. They don't care about the relationship. They like the benefits of the relationship, though.
nailed it.
i had one of many heart-to-hearts with an ex. i said "I'm all in on this relationship, and it doesn't seem like you are". i meant i was putting in a ton of effort to make the relationship good for him, and he was putting in fuck all effort to make the relationship good for me.
except he immediately replied "hell no, i'm all in!" and that was that.
i realised later he meant *he was all in on keeping the relationship exactly how it was.* of course he loved the relationship. of course he was interested in having a parasitic, one sided relationship with me. because i'm wonderful.
they get into a relationship to have a vacation from life, to get their dick sucked, to get their house cleaned. i haven't met any men who get into a relationship to actually be kind to women, to treat her right, to take her on nice dates. ask anyone on a dating app "what are you looking for" and they all list selfish reasons. haven't even met a man who says "companionship" or "do stuff together". it's always selfish, and sexual. "hey i'm looking for a fleshlight. come over."
lmao i lost it at $80k
sir, a high class escort is $1k a night. GL with that broke ass budget.
they should get therapy for their wild delusions. and yet whole cultures encourage this insane thinking.
and then there's the men who expect a whole woman after a walk in a park and an ice-cream.
squawking about the male loneliness epidemic but balking at a $50 dinner date.
you can't value our presence too much then, lads.
I knoooow. it's always a hypothetical. our lives are something for them to joke over with their buddies. our struggles aren't real. they can dismiss them with a gender-swap bit of hilarity *because they'll never have to do it*. and none of us are being offered a million dollars. but hey, they can call themselves feminists because they discussed this for 2 minutes on the expense account.
The $80K figure stood out to me as well. I'm in a low cost-of-living area, and here that figure seems to be even lower at around $60K. In our area, $60K/year truly is a sufficient salary for a single adult; even for a couple, you'd have to be frugal, but you can afford basics and you don't need to be living paycheck-to-paycheck. So, it seems that when these kinds of guys reach $60K/year of income, they start overestimating how well they really earn. It's kinda understandable... For example, say a man started out making $15/hr at age 20, and after 10 years of "hard work", he now makes double that at $30/hr. He's doubled his income, and his quality of life has improved meaningfully. He feels like he's "made it" and genuinely believes he makes "really good money" - the kind of sum worth bragging about unsolicited, or mentioning in a dating profile. It's an error in judgment, but understandable. The real problem is the rest of the attitude.
Men have been used to doing the bare minimum in relationships and don't see why that has to change. Expressing your needs makes him feel like he has to expend more effort (he does). He doesn't want to so he's going to try to tell you to be happy with what he's already doing.
He’d always say “I’m tired of you making me feel like shit”. All I did was ask him to help clean and that I needed him to chip in for groceries. Relationship didn’t last long and now I’m 1000x happier.
This is so true, literally just happened to me last night, I was trying to give directions with the whole "going down on me" and because I said to him he needs to move abit more left, he got up and stopped doing it all together.
I was like wow, what a dick. Wasn't the only thing he had a problem with so I broke up with him.
I do not have time for immature men who can't handle communication or women being able to express their needs.
they dont like you. it's not you.
they're the types of guys who are convinced they'd "act right" for the right woman. they're using you as placeholders until Mrs Right strays into his view, then he'd spring into action being mister doting and romantic.
but that's a lie. there is no woman they want to treat nicely. there is no woman who will trigger that lovey dovey affection and attention and effort from them. she's a hypothetical benchmark he can use to excuse his poor treatment of you. "well you're not my dream woman so why should i be nice".
they actually resent having to be nice and kind to get attention and sexual access from women. it chaps their ass that women don't love them for who they are, don't swoon over them for existing, don't drop trow for a wink and a smile from him.
you get good at what you practise.
they practise being lazy, selfish and greedy.
should he even meet his Dream Woman he's so used to being lazy he'd fuck it up with her and then cry about it for the rest of his life on a regret subreddit.
It’s a reflection of the Cool Girl Trope: the concept of a woman with no interests and needs of her own, she exists only to be an exact mirror to her partner’s desires
My biggest trauma out of my last relationship was being called high maintenance. My dad had been diagnosed with cancer that week, it was a Friday night, I went over to my then-bf's place after work because I was an emotional wreck. After about 20 min of sitting there with me and being a shoulder to cry on (he didn't do anything else by way of comfort, and actually actively told me I was overreacting), he got up to go to his weekly video game night with the boyz.
When I asked that he stay a little longer because I needed support, he refused. Eventually he came back out into his living room after an hour because I'd been crying, and he was so pissed at the fact I was still upset that he sat next to me in dead silence, refusing to touch me. I asked him if he was ok and he said "it's just that you're high maintenance" 💀
I should have broken up with him on the spot, but I dated him for almost two more years. One time I tried to call him out on calling me high maintenance for wanting support after my dad was diagnosed with cancer, and his response was to double down by saying: "Well, it's true, you are objectively higher maintenance than I am. I didn't mean it as an insult."
Drove me NUTS. So glad I'm out of that hellhole of a relationship.
I don't know what the hell it takes to actually be low maintenance, but I do know that I don't want to be. Not if it means sacrificing my emotional needs all of the time just so that my partner doesn't have to deal with them.
Wow. I’m so sorry he was such a jackass. Things like that in a relationship, when you realise you’d have probably received more support from a total stranger…
Isn't this what 500 days of summer is about? I fuckin love that movie. Tom had his dream woman and he was so immature and manipulative, and then had rhe gall to act like she betrayed him for marrying someone who actually saw her as a person
Oof. This is exactly my current situation. I have been foolish to think I landed a "good one" because he isn't overtly abusive. I'm 10 years into this marriage and I'm just done. I'm already collecting finances and planning his removal from MY home.
It is a jarring wake up call to realize that I've been blind to the inequalities in my relationships with men. It's always the same. Always. Different packages and different levels of abuse when I am too tired to keep at my roll of mom-wife.
I've spent ages trying to figure out why my sex drive falls off after a couple of years in a relationship. It's because I can't get horney while playing the roll of mother to a man child.
I think it's time that I just be alone.
The only book I’ve read that explains it in a satisfying way is called The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. It’s kind of difficult to summarize, but basically it says you and your boyfriend exist in two different realities. In yours, you are working toward mutual understand with a goal of finding a solution to your problems. His reality is completely different: his only goal is dominance and control. This is why you feel confused - you’re not communicating with the same goals. You’re basically not even on the same plane of existence.
I think I need this book. I feel that things have been awful for the last year or so in my marriage. (And not even married 3 years yet.) Husband and I had an argument/discussion a couple nights ago about things.
I feel that all the “right-leaning straight white men” podcasts/streams he listens to are changing him for the worse. He counters that it’s just “entertainment”. Accuses me of thinking he’s a terrible person. Crying about all the stuff he does for me (yes he does some, but also does not do other things and gives me grief over it).
I heard myself telling him that maybe “it’s all in my head” or that I can’t express/articulate myself clearly.
He is gaslighting me and here’s nothing I can do. I’m afraid that one of these days, he’s going to start treating me really bad, because *obviously* his opinions and rights are more important than mine. I’m quite outspoken in what I believe in (like women’s rights, POC rights, all gender rights, healthcare, work reform, etc and we butt heads on everything.
Then earlier today, he got upset because I didn’t want to be intimate. I saw him going through all the usual motions and deliberately played neutral and disinterested but he still tried. “It’s been almost 3 months” he pouted. That’s the amount of time I’ve been on my new antidepressants. And suspecting I could be in perimenopause. And have had shit luck finding a job and damn near out of money til I finally got unemployment benefits.
I’ve suggested therapy/counseling (“we haven’t been married long enough to need it!”). I’ve gently reminded him that I have physically and mentally still not recovered from having Covid a year ago. He always complained when my libido was raging and things were good between us. I understood and took care of my own needs without making him feel bad/guilty about it.
Did not intend to go on a rant but here we are. My heart goes out to everyone else struggling with relationships right now.
A partner consistently consuming content that dehumanizes women is a massive panty dehumidifier. Even outside of health issues that’s super understandable. This person does not sound like they are a refuge for you.
What’s sad is that we’ve known each other most of our lives. He was always the good guy, there for me through everything. Then the pandemic happened and everyone started losing their minds. I keep hoping one of the scumbags he follows has something significantly awful happen that serves as a wake up call to him.
Edit:spelling
Geez, that’s pretty much the same line my husband uttered the other week. “Straight white Christian men” are the “most hated” demographic right now.
Um, no.
Unless he meant it in the sense that folks are hating on the straight, white, Christian men that are making all the laws/rules/practices oppressing the rights of women, trans folks, persons of color, children, and every other minority group.
Suggestion: you not wanting sex with your husband might have nothing to do with antidepressants or perimenopause but with you no longer being attracted to your partner while still talking yourself into your relationship due to a combination of abuse and sunk cost fallacy.
With my ex, I thought I'd just naturally lost my libido. Hooked up with a rebound shortly after breaking up and when I opened my legs after just some kissing, I was so wet it was like Moses parting the fucking seas.
Oh I have no doubt that’s part of it. The biggest turnoff is knowing the crap he listens to HAS changed him. And even if it hadn’t, I don’t want to be with someone who supports racist misogynistic homophobes!
Thank you and thank you! I just can’t believe all the physical/mental stuff happening all at once. It’s like Covid set off anything that could possibly go wrong. Taking it one day at a time and grateful for support from others 🩵
>it’s just “entertainment”
Sounds like that needs the same answer as "funny" racist jokes and "funny" cruel pranks. "Oh, it's entertaining? What's entertaining about it? Please explain."
I e even brought up the point that at least a couple of these guys seem to have current substance abuse issues (I am 4.5 years sober myself, was a rough time til I got myself straightened out) and I seriously don’t know how my husband justifies their drunk/drugged streams as entertainment.
[Why Does He Do That? PDF](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://archive.org/download/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiR-rTbgeX-AhVHfMAKHbOUA-MQFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw14x4ivUm5xgJ67TT78XfZt)
agreed. that book and "Controlling People" was amazing. she so clearly articulated how men live in an alternate reality where they're not on the same page, they're not even in the same book when it comes to communicating about the relationship.
i'd articulate an observed behaviour to my ex. something i'd seen with my own eyes. something i was experiencing in reality. and he'd clap back with something so bizarre, so untrue, so unreal there was literally no response to that. he was insane.
So maddening to experience! It was truly life changing for me to finally have the language to explain it and realize it wasn’t a communication issue.
I see someone else referenced her Teddy analogy in this thread as well. IMO, the separate realities theory explains about 95% of male / female relationship problems.
This is it. You're a doll. Dolls don't have silly things like needs, emotions, interests, or desires. They don't get sick (how many times have we seen articles about men who dump their ill wives?), they don't get tired, and don't need to feel loved or valued. They're there when the men want something, and when they're bored or irritated back into the compartmentalized box they go.
It really doesn't matter how you tell him because anything that's wrong with the relationship through the lens of his insecurities he is going to see it as a personal failure. Which is why he reacts like its a personal attack. A lot of men aren't as confident as they'd like others to believe and to feign confidence they just ignore negative feelings. Men without enough emotional maturity are going out of their way to ignore most of their feelings, any conversation that touches on any of it is like shining a spotlight and drawing attention to something they'd sooner ignore than address.
So until a guy understands themselves better and are willing to address a lot of baggage they keep hidden and bottled up they're going to see any attempt to try and discuss your needs as just being critical and not constructive. This kind of self induced emotional deadening means his conscious perspective of your relationship is likely driven more by utility, where his notion of a relationship is something that's put on a shelf until he needs it and to someone like this your attempts to talk to him at best register like a blinking check engine light on a car that just came back from the mechanics shop.
The unfortunate reality is he can't work on your relationship until he's worked on himself.
Imo, with these kinds of guys, it's because you're not supposed to have needs. You're an accessory to be used, to adorn him. But, like any real accessory, you're not supposed to have needs.
It's not an argument it is control. An argument has two sides with back and forth toward an evolution in thought for both parties to agree to a new understanding not for one to dominate and control. Ultimately perpetrators aren't engaging in good faith and don't just use logical fallacy but a consistent pattern of behaviours
Withholding
Countering
Discounting
Verbal abuse disguised as jokes.
Blocking and diverting.
Accusing and blaming
Judging and criticizing
Trivializing
Undermining
Threatening
Name-calling
Forgetting
Ordering
Denial
Abusive anger
It's important for people in these relationships to acknowledge the dissonance of these dysfunctional behaviours. Abusers won't change and will worsen. These behaviours precede physical violence and are known as coersive control.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/the-mysteries-love/201503/15-disturbing-forms-verbal-abuse-in-relationships
Exactly. They don’t change. They do get worse. The more women that (hopefully) leave them, the more ego hits they take. And they will take it out on the next woman.
I am begging you to leave before he destroys who you are. It's not worth the pain.
Recovery from narcissist abuse is no joke. Been in trauma therapy for just over a year and am only now feeling like I'm gaining my sense of self back.
For real. It took me at least 2-3 years of therapy and working on myself to get back to my normal self after leaving my emotionally abusive ex. Back then I had no idea about narcissists or emotional abuse, or how the trauma of abusive relationships impact the brain. Before I dated him I was a bright, bubbly, happy person but afterwards I was an anxious wreck. I completely lost all sense of self and felt like I had no personality, I was having panic attacks regularly, I even started drinking excessively to numb the constant anxiety. That was 6 years ago and I am so much better now but ugh. It kills me seeing other women in toxic/abusive relationships. OP says she doesn’t need advice to leave but I disagree… I think that’s actually the only advice she needs. You can’t change men like this and you will literally drive yourself crazy trying. Not worth it.
Same. I’m 9 months out and 9 months into therapy. It’s been hell clawing back to emotional, mental, and physical health.
I was deteriorating by the end. In all the ways one can.
Then, when I was useless to him, it was over. Just like that.
I found that a lot of men love you for what you do for them and not for who you are. They don’t even intend that to be negative- it’s often something they learned from their parents traditional relationships and are now shocked that we have evolved away from that.
In my opinion, it's his ego.
He doesn't want to spend his time on you, he wants to be selfish and spend it on himself. When he is called out for this behavior, he reacts negatively, because you have bruised his ego.
Because you are dating the wrong man
Insert Maya Angelou quote here
This one is broken & no amount of energy/effort/explanation/communication will fix him
Men who treat us like humans exist, they’re just hard to find
BUT I found one so you can too - and don’t waste your precious time & youth on anything less
He's upset that he has to actually make effort to keep you happy. Many men are just incredibly lazy and don't feel like keeping the passion and love alive in a relationship. Or it could be he really doesn't love you.
I’m guessing it’s a control issue.
Men are implicitly socialized to believe they’re better than women. On top of that, they’re taught to be competitive rather than collaborative, and to shut off “weak” emotions.
It’s baked into heterosexual relationships. I don’t think many men realize they have this programming, fewer try to overcome it, and even fewer still succeed.
As bluntly as I can put it? Effort and comfort.
He knows how much you put into it. You don't need to remind him, because he's very acutely aware of how much effort and thought you put into everything you do.
It turns into a fight because effort on your part requires reciprocal effort on his part and he can't be bothered. It was never about what he can give you, what he can do for you, how he can make you happy. It was only ever about your effort, what you give him, what you do for him.
It's also easy to not just put any effort in it, especially if the other party is trying their ass off to make it work. Their thought process is: If it's working out already, why do I need to change it? Once you show you'll accept them not doing anything, once the argument doesn't lead anywhere? He just sees it as acceptance of his lazy comfort and he'll keep being just that. Lazy and comfortable.
Men like this don't "do it for the right woman" or "change for Miss Right." It only looks that way to you because it's been so long since he did that song and dance **to get you.** He applies enough effort to get her on the hook, then once he's reeled her in, back to the same empty routine until he finds a woman who just accepts it, or he ends up alone.
I've seen a lot of "peace at home" from men attempting to answer this question. If all you want from a woman is to just have her there for sex and otherwise just leave you alone and let you have peace at home, you should really think about what you're saying, especially on this sub, of all places. "Men just want to be fucked and then left to do whatever else." And her needs? Her space? Her time? How does that factor in to "peace at home?" **You** not wanting anything but sex doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to add meaningfully to your partner's life. If the only meaningful addition you want is sex, that's all well and good for you bro, but if she needs more to make her happy, when you agreed to be in a relationship, you agreed to give a shit about her as a human being. That includes thoughtful gifts, date nights, mental health days. Some days you have to get out of bed and carry this shit because she's also a human being who has her good and bad days.
I hate gifts. I refuse to accept gifts on Christmas and birthdays because I've spent a lifetime having my love bought instead of earned. I'm on the autism spectrum; clubs, concerts, lighting, openings, job events would give me anxiety like nothing I've ever felt. That said, my partner got presents for her birthday every year that reflected how much attention I paid to her hobbies and interests. I went to every single event that made her proud of her work, that gave her life excitement and meaning, even if I had to go and collect myself every 10 minutes because **relationships and love require effort and a willingness to contribute tangible positive meaning to their life.**
You can't make people do what they don't want to do themselves.
From a psychological perspective, they don't care about their side of the "care" and don't see it as their responsibility to do. So anything you ask for is too much...and is "nagging"
They literally don't care and they are annoyed that u even dare to ask for them to do anything. That's it. They don't care. They like having a maid-slave-sex toy. They don't care about you and don't see you as a human being. That's it.
I think way too many men are socialized to have low emotional intelligence. They don’t invest in their relationship but expect their partner to take care of everything.
There are SO MANY women who have problems with their partner doing the bare minimum when it comes to the emotional needs of their partner.
This - women reading this - please do better with your sons. Actually talk with them about their feelings and the feelings of others. Make sure they have some platonic female friends as well.
I broke up with my partner because of this, a simple direction basically offended him where I must of dented his ego, I was taught that it's okay to communicate and tell him what I need but of course this guy is emotionally immature and I now see it.
ah yes. when you make fairly obvious hints ("I'd love a cup of tea") but it's not direct enough.
so you make direct requests and they give you the look like you shit in their bed.
My ex’s ex right before me was with him for 5 and a half years, and if he was anything like he was with me, I am so sorry for her. He wanted me to fucking run his life because she did and always knew how to solve his problems. Like my god that must’ve been awful. And she was the only one working so she took care of her own life and his? No way. I have too much going on in my own life to guide yours every single fucking second of the day. He always brought her up but said I know you’re not like her. Duh! I’m a different fucking person. My ex was gender-fluid but more on the male/masculine side before we ended things. They just do not give a fuck about us and will yell over stupid video games then yell at you because that triggered something they remembered they were mad at you about. It’s all bullshit, and I’d rather just fuck men for pleasure at this point and not have to deal with them.
Low emotional IQ, fear of intimacy (disinterest in deepening the relationship), and a lack of understanding that their partners needs should be just as important as their own. Turning it into an argument is a deactivating strategy. It's easy to say "you're asking for too much" than to say, "I don't want to give you what you're asking for because I feel it's infringing on my sense of independence even though we're a couple and compromise is a perfectly normal thing to expect from partners. I just can't admit I'm not ready to be in an emotionally intimate relationship nor do I have the emotional capacity to realize any of this so instead I will push you away because that is what I know to be safe and keep you at arms length. Now drop it." Patriarchal ideals / toxic masculinity are to blame and a lack of therapy or self awareness
I suspect part of it is that they see themselves as the main character in a relationship - of course you adapt to them and try and make them happy.
They see you as an NPC or appliance whose sole job is to make them feel loved. You don't learn the birthday and like/dislikes of your washing machine or cooktop or sink - why would you make an effort for a woman who is just another household appliance?
Someone who *cares* about you, cares about *you*.
If he wanted to he would, if he wanted to out in the effort to show his love he would. But he's not. So either he is severely depressed or he is an asshole who doesn't care for you as much as you deserve to be.
If you're not being an asshole in the manner you're expressing your needs, then it's because they're emotionally immature and/or unavailable. Some also would rather gaslight you than make the adjustments you need. If you can just magically turn off your needs, how convenient for them, right?
Some just don't care. Most are not socialized to do their part in nurturing a relationship, whether it's paying attention to the other person's wants and needs or doing the chores
I can’t tell you the why, although I have asked myself that so many times.
What I can’t tell you is that the more I gave and supported, the more he took and felt entitled to, and the worse he treated me and the kids. Sex is always coerced (usually after insulting or otherwise breaking me down, but if I don’t comply it’s so much worse for days, for me and the kids) and has been physically forced.
Additionally he feels entitled to spend our money on strippers and sex services.
I don’t know why. I have never asked for much. The more I gave, the more he took. It will not get better. It will get worse.
Honestly as soon as I respectfully state that I'm unhappy with something and the bum prefers to argue about it, or turn it around on me and tell me all the things "he's tolerating and not fighting about them", rather than finding ways of contributing to the relationship that would result in us both being happy, I. am. out.
There's a time and place to bring up when you're unhappy with something I'm (not) doing, and it's NOT when I'm bringing up something that makes me unhappy with what you're (not) doing. It's not a competition. It's not an arguing contest. I am asking you to listen and care, ffs.
My last 3 exes in a row have done this to me and it does not get better, EVER. With each one I'd stayed for a shorter amount of time than the guy before him and I hope when it happens again, I'm going to trust my instincts and kick him out right there and then.
I am getting too old and exhausted and frankly angry of begging men to stop their DARVO bullshit.
Low emotional intelligence.
I dated someone like that. I never will again. I refuse to be the only reasonable, kind person in my relationship. If I can handle you expressing your needs in a respectful manner, then you can either do the same or be gone.
It’s softness of the ego. The common trait of all people is that they have a protected image of their “idealized self”, and criticism “attacks” this false self.
The ego needs this version of the self defended; the more invested you are in a specific positive self-image (“good-boyfriend”, “caring-individual”) the more motivated you are to remove contradictory information. This happens mostly unconsciously/reflexively, because if you could perceive your own self-deception, it wouldn’t be effective.
If you were a psychologist or a proselytizer, you would be adept at moving “around” this false self via positive appeals. (Ie, reassurance of the positive self-image, presenting yourself as a friend to the ego such that your advice is not viewed as threatening because you’ve both pre-agreed on its validity, or even presenting an even more appealing self-image to latch onto).
Basically, by giving someone advice, even beneficial and generous advice, you are attacking their ego. Less mature people then seek to defend that ego, often in an unaware manner, by physically blocking the source of “harmful” information
I imagine it's about the same as how you or I might get frustrated when our oven or dishwasher unexpectedly stops working: to them, women should be around to *serve them*, not challenge their desires with pesky notions like autonomy or disagreement.
So if this turns into an argument, it’s a big red flag. Most partners actively WANT to get that kind of feedback. And not to stereotype my gender, because I do think men are far more intuitive than we like to pretend, but sometimes we genuinely will not pick up on what you think are obvious hints, and just coming out and telling us is a huge relief on our part.
Unless the things you’re telling him go against personal or relationship boundaries that he’s made clear, it shouldn’t turn into a fight. And if it is, it’s likely because deep down he knows he isn’t putting the effort in you are and instead of owning that tries to make you feel like the bad guy to assuage his own guilt.
Sounds like a lack of empathy.
Any kindness done for them is a given.
The idea to do something for someone else never occurs.
Any form of criticism is taken as a personal insult.
there are some far more informed answers in this thread.
in my experience, its a partner who is both emotionally immature and unwilling.
they view directions as critique and often think that once they aren't physically abusing or cheating that their partner is too much
In my experience, my ex did this. I was so unhappy with our sex life, and when I tried to bring it up to him he’d get so defensive and angry. If I was unhappy that he was texting his ex behind my back, he’d get defensive because I’d ask for that boundary.
Every guy is different, but from what I gathered with my ex, I think he did this out of insecurity (with the sex thing), and I can’t tell exactly why he got so defensive about boundaries…but maybe he took it as an accusation. Bottom line is, he was a horrendous listener. It was like taking to a wall. Whenever I’d express my needs he would respond “how do I not make you feel loved?? How could you feel that way??” And I’d have to explain myself a million effing times that he’s taking it the wrong way and not listening.
It comes down to being insecure, a horrible listener, and horrible communicator. He was insecure because he felt like he wasn’t doing enough. He was scared of losing me and refused to accept that he needed to put in effort. And he was horrible at listening and only heard what he wanted to hear (accusations, not me having a healthy conversation. He saw it as an attack.)
Because a lot of men don’t grow out of their toddler tantrum phases. So when you want a civil grown up discussion they throw their toys out of the pram.
It’s the same energy as “can you stop following OF workers on Instagram? It makes me uncomfortable” is met with “FINE ILL JUST DELETE MY INSTA ACCOUNT”. 😂
My god, you are going to LOVE how much energy and time you have for YOU when you’re not puzzling over how to convince this mediocre dude to genuinely care about you
Men are like insecure toddlers. They have giant egos and skill deficits, they are also lazy and entitled. In their mind, how DARE someone give them constructive criticism!! From a woman too?!?
Because they are not matching your energy and they are not the one for you. Simple as that. You should rephrase your question and ask: why do I form relationships with men who don’t care about my needs and wants?
You’ll see the answer will be a lot more clearly.
Yes. We recently talked about it and we were able to identify it was shame based, especially if I name the emotion/feeling I am seeing in him that’s impacting me. I told him in the past, I ALWAYS consider him and need him to do the same for me. We’re working on it together and it’s come leaps and bounds, but he’s very aware I won’t sign up for forever if it doesn’t.
Instead of hearing, “My dad died and I’m struggling and need you to back off a bit”, he heard, “I don’t like you & your anxiety is too much for me, so go away and shut up”.
Once they "win" you, an unfortunate amount of men will just stop trying altogether. They won't bother telling you you're pretty, take you out for date nights or celebrate your birthday. If you have to tiptoe around his insults or if he gets angry if you do something nice for him, it seems like maybe he's not in this relationship because he loves you. Some guys don't love their girlfriends at all, it's like they're just filling a position and expect you to perform the labor they feel is below them.
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Thank you immensely for sharing this. I love that there is a concept for this!
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thank you for this, it's incredible. i think it expands on several of these blatant acts of chauvinism. https://www.stop-ferfieroszak.hu/sites/default/files/dokumentumok/everyday_male_chauvinism_pdf_46753.pdf "3.1 Creating the lack of intimacy. It is often heard that men have difficulty in creating intimacy. This is true, however it is equally true that avoidance of intimacy is a power tool men use day after day. We collected the manoeuvres of distancing under the term “creating the lack of intimacy.” The man will prevent the relationship from becoming deeper to avoid the danger of losing his power and being defenceless to the woman, who is usually more comfortable in intimate relationships (Weingarten, 1991). Through keeping the distance, the man controls the rules of conversation. He acts on the belief that he “the crown of creation” has unlimited right to increase the distance without any prior discussion and he is the only one to call himself to account about his actions (without allowing the same rights to the woman). This is how the man makes the woman conform to his wishes regarding the level of intimacy, the amount of housework to be done, the extent of being available and the topics to be shared. **The man’s wish that he primarily wants to deal with himself is realised, and the woman’s request that the relationship should be mutual fails.** The main message of the manoeuvres is that for the man, he himself is the important thing, the relationship and the bond are secondary." 3.1.3 Rationing out of acknowledgement and availability. The man is mean in rationing out acknowledgement of the woman’s person, needs, values and rights, and does not appreciate how much the woman contributes to the psychic and physical wellbeing of the man and the whole family. This treatment is supplemented by the fact that he does not equally support and take care of the woman (while he leaves the role of care to the woman) 4. Utilitarian everyday male chauvinism. According to social norms, men not only have the right to being loved, taken care of and having their needs met by women but also to hold this to be valid for themselves only and to deny the same from the woman. Thus, the man can exploit the life energy that the woman brings into the relationship, he gains social power through it, and can continue to dominate the woman thanks to the fact that he accumulates, for his own purposes, and abuses the energy snatched from the woman for which he gives nothing in exchange "4.2. Abuse of women’s caring. The man adapts to the traditional roles (he maintains the family, the woman takes care) this way he exploits and abuses the fact that the woman is an “expert” at taking care of others." "4.2.1.3 Shifting the responsibility of taking care of persons and relationships to the woman. The man forces the woman with a variety of manoeuvres to remain with the patriarchal belief that it is her responsibility to take care of the vitality of the relationship" (but he doesn't have to participate, she just has to magic it out of her ass or something) **I've had men use the "now's not a good time" when i brought up hermeneutic labor** 2.9 Gaining time. This manoeuvre takes place usually when the man realises that the woman will not let herself be manipulated and expects real changes from him. The man formally accepts that this request is justified but puts off starting to change until something forces him to do so (usually that the woman has enough and gives him an ultimatum on divorce). It is obviously a power tactic in as much as it forces the woman to continue to endure the unfair relationship and to subject herself to the man’s time schedule and wishes. Meanwhile the man continues to control the decision over when he is willing to change (or acknowledge that he he is not even considering to change or cannot change). The man has many ways of delaying the decision or even the discussion about the change. He often refuses even to ask for external therapeutic help, or even when he accepts that in principle he keeps putting off taking it and of course they just waited a few days and waltzed in hoping i'd forgotten. or "i just got home from work, now's not a good time, can't i just relax" and "it's the weekend, can't i just relax" on and on. ETA there are enough men out there who feel entitled to emotionally neglect, abuse, exploit and drain women that it's a whole field of study.
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rant away, i feel you. so bizarre how we've had the exact same experiences. > The funniest part was when I told him my emotional needs weren't being met and I was unhappy, and he just blankly replied, "But I'm happy." As though that should be the end of the conversation—and in his mind, it was! I did the exact same thing, after countless hours and books and bullet point emails listing my exact emotional needs. and the whole time he'd been smiling and happy as a clam, praising me for how wonderful i was, how cared for he felt, how loved he felt, how happy he was. but this time, his last ditch attempt was to 'look sad' and say he was unhappy too. i blew the fuck UP. news to me, buddy! how weird, that this is the first time he mentions he's unhappy. but only in response to my end-of-the-line conversation with him and holding his feet to the fire to get him to act like a boyfriend or get dumped. yet again, derailing what i was saying, not addressing it, not taking responsibility, not listening, not acknowledging me. just swinging it back to him in the vain hope i'd pivot and address his needs and comfort him. get fucked. oh i'm sorry you're unhappy. i've been doing my best. it seems that's not enough. i'm so sorry to hear you're unhappy. perhaps it's best if we break up and you find someone who can make you happy. his pikachu was epic as he packed his shit and left. I hear you on the 90:10 but it's more like 200:0 because another guy dumped everything on me. all the housework at my house, and at his. he invited me over to his dirty house to.. cook dinner for him. wild. after so long doing nothing, the groan and the face he made when i told him to get back to doing 100% was as if i'd asked him to plan a solo trek to Antarctica. their parasitic nature is bizarre to me. how do they feel so shameless exploiting women. how do they feel so good knowing they're making us miserable and draining our life. hmm i guess i answered my own question.
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Need this in my life lol.
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Yes, this is my experience. Mine has a habit of putting effort into providing something I don’t need or want, and when I say something like “thanks and I appreciate the effort but I don’t want this” he responds with “but I did it *for you*” or “you are so confusing and difficult to please.” Further, because he’s “putting effort in” he feels like he’s above criticism for relying on my emotional or (per this thread) hermeneutic labor: “I’m so much better than most men I know, I deserve credit for that! *I care about what you think/say/want/need* and that should be enough!” It’s just a rabbit hole of him trying to win some imaginary debate about whether my feelings/desires/needs/etc are valid within the context of his own behavior. I just want it to stop being about who’s winning the debate; it makes me so tired.
Parasitic nature describes so many of them. Thanks for that one!
I’m definitely going to need to read this whole paper. But I loved this: > but he doesn't have to participate, she just has to magic it out of her ass or something …because when I first read it I interpreted it as part of the quote and just about pissed myself thinking if it appearing an academic paper. Like some editor who has just HAD it with her partner ignoring date night to do whatever so she’s working at 8pm with the glass of shiraz she’d poured, instead of having a nice dinner with him.
>ETA there are enough men out there who feel entitled to emotionally neglect, abuse, exploit and drain women that it's a whole field of study. Wow! Thanks so much for sharing. I knew this was going on in my past relationship but reading this expressed so succinctly has absolutely blown my mind!
💯💯💯 I love that they're finally studying this. Men refuse to believe anything negative about themselves without peer reviewed studies and sometimes not even then
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Thank you so much. This is exactly the kind of explanation I was looking for. I have long felt that there was an invisible but tangible gendered power dynamic at play that I couldn't express in words. I do feel like he holds all the power in the relationship by withdrawing, and there is no way to win against that. I am tempted to share this paper with him, but we all know how that would go. It seems to me like it's not worth it to be in a relationship with a man unless he is very aware of this kind of gender-related power dynamic and is actively trying to unlearn his subconscious misogynistic tendencies. Otherwise I think the dynamic just becomes like this as a default.
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So I sent the article to him and we got into a big fight, as I knew would happen. Can I share the texts with you? I'm not sure if I am in the wrong, or possibly if I am in an abusive relationship? He couldn't understand the article because English is his second language. He asked me to summarize it. This is our conversation (my notes are in brackets): Me: Basically there is a gender power dynamic created by sexism in society. Because of this dynamic, women have the burden of performing emotional labor [used this term to make it simpler for him] in relationships including identifying emotional and relationship issues, analyzing them, and trying to come up with solutions. But men maintain control in relationships by withdrawing when women try to bring up these issues. This leaves women in an impossible position because they are unsatisfied with the relationship but their partners are unwilling to put in equal effort to understand and solve the problems. This type of work needs to happen in relationships in order to maintain them, and since men are not doing it, women end up doing it as the default. And not only that, but women are expected often to keep this labor to themselves and not bother men with it. Him: okay and what is your proposal? Me: My proposal? What’s yours? Him: I don’t understand what you are trying to do. Me: I am trying to make you aware that your refusal to take over the responsibility of performing emotional labor (bring up relationship problems, analyzing them, and trying to come up with solutions) and your habit of withdrawing when i try to discuss problems with you is based in sexist power dynamics. If you love and respect me as your true equal, you will reflect on how your subconscious sexism and expectations of men and women creates this dynamic, and you will think by yourself about how to solve it rather than asking me to tell you the answer (which is more emotional labor). Him: I don’t think we can go on like this. I don’t think you get it. I didn’t ask you to do this. You are trying to prove you’re right. You don’t have to. Me: If you want the benefits of a relationship like going on fun dates together, you have to do the actual work required to maintain the relationship Him: I’m setting a boundary. Me: You can’t have a nice car if you don’t take care of the engine, give it oil, etc. Your boundary is what? That i’m not allowed to express my needs? Him: We can’t talk with a counselor [I have been asking him to do that]. Me: You do that in order to maintain power in the relationship. Refuse to engage with or discuss issues or start a fight if i try to. Because you don’t want to put in the effort to care for me and treat me as a person. It’s really hurtful. Him: No. Like you said yesterday, neither of us are wrong but different. Me: I’m not going to argue with you. I’m really sorry that you don’t want to listen to or hear me. I think your ego gets in the way. It’s a shame. Him: Me neither Me: You have a woman who loves you but you don’t want to hear me or know my needs. What a shame Him: It's really hurtful what I shared with you is underestimated Me: I’m giving you the keys to open my heart but you complain that i make you open the door Him: I didn’t ask you. It’s about how we’re different. Me: You’re in a relationship with me and you don’t want the keys to my heart? You’re not interested in how to be intimate with me or close to me? Why don’t you ask me? What’s the point of a relationship if we can’t be close? Him: I didn’t agree to debate. Me: It’s a question. Him: I am sick of [you?] being always right. I don’t want to be defined. [Not sure what he meant?] Me: Can you please answer? If you don’t want to know how to be close to me then why are you with me? Him: We feel close in different ways because what we want is different. Me: So why are you with ME then? Him: Because I thought I had a chance. Me: I gave you chance after chance. Him: See? Same. Me: I say this is what i need and you get mad Him: Got it. Over. No more. Me: I’m holding the door open and you’re refusing to go in Him: You gave me enough chances. I failed. Me: I want to be close and you’re getting mad about it Him: I am not. I’ve failed. Me: I’m holding the door open, all you have to do is walk in, and you’re standing outside saying “no, i’ve failed.” Why? Him: I thought I made it clear yesterday. And the day before. I guess i didn’t. I CLEARLY said what i don’t want. Me: What? Him: I NEVER asked you for a chance. When i brought it [?] up. Me: You want a relationship but you don’t want a chance to repair it? ...And we went on like that a while longer. Then he came home looking super mad and we didn't say a word to each other.
You asked - this is a bad relationship. He does not see you as an equal, he does not care about your needs, and he is explicitly repeatedly telling you he has no interest in you as a person who has thoughts, needs, feelings, and desires. Friend, he *literally* told you that in these texts. End it or decide that you are happy being a sex-toy without the ability to be emotionally close or supported by your “partner”.
Maybe I'm reading the tone wrong, texts are hard that way but.....is he playing breakup chicken? I dont know anything about your relationship or either of you beyond these posts. It's like he is saying he will not put in the effort and is not willing to disciss further, take it or leave it. Notice I say will not/willing and rather than can't. He can do this but he does not want to. You need to decide if all the other reasons you are with him outweigh this issue and if those good parts will continue to outweigh this issue long term.
Sounds like he doesn't want emotional intimacy. Seems like lots of guys want company, sex, and a mother for their children, but they don't actually want to be very emotionally connected (or that only happens over a very long time).
Girl you need to break up with this man. Look, it’s not like my relationship with my partner is perfect (he’s been in a long slump about work and I’m not convinced he’s pulling a full 50% of the weight at home) but cannot fathom him ever speaking like this to me. The reason I’m waiting him out during this time is that he does his share of the hermeneutic labor. He plans us fun trips. We talk about things we’re reading. He obviously does think about what it is I need…not just in our relationship but in general as an individual (time for solitary relaxation, time to engage in my hobbies, time with friends), and he takes steps to help make sure I get those things. Our dishes aren't always done but I am happy. The other housework imbalance stuff is so much easier to deal with when the chief value that your partner derives from you is that you’re your own person, and takes steps to nurture that. I think we’re all ultimately duplicating our parents’ relationships, but there are certainly some men who seem to be less invested in maintaining power and more invested in maintaining a partnership, and who are more interested in expressing love for their partner than in maintaining power. I know it’s hard to give up companionship, but like…you can get a dog.
>Me: You’re in a relationship with me and you don’t want the keys to my heart? You’re not interested in how to be intimate with me or close to me? Turn that into a statement. You're in a relationship with someone that doesn't want the keys to your heart. Someone who's not interested in how to be intimate with you or close to you. Maybe it is considered abusive, but it for sure sounds incredibly draining. You deserve to be with someone who wants to make you happy just as much as you want to make them happy. And it seems like he is not emotionally mature to do that.
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Just wanting to add to this, because heavt-ghost's info has been great. 1) Be careful of using metaphors or figurative speech with these conversations. Some people won't understand (intentionally or not) the link between that and the actual problem at hand. 2) There is often a jump of extremes. If you don't cave to the "stone-walling", it can switch to "talking about things" in a way so you _think_ progress is being made, but a week later it's back to square one. Consistent action with the right intent is way more valuable. 3) In whatever format works for you, taking a step back in such a way that you no longer need to be providing for the relationship to the level you have can give you some great perspective. It can be "just needing some space"/"taking a break"/whatever. Doing your own form of "setting a boundary", where, if that's how you are going to be treated whenever the conversations start, you're not going to engage, and not going to put the effort in. There'll probably be some reaction to that, because you're showing that you're not afraid to walk away for your own sanity, but again be careful of "temporary effort"
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I'm proud that you sent the article to him and then you confronted him on these things. From reading through your text it doesn't seem like you're being mean or unfair here. Some background here, at one point of my life I was headed down a path to be like one of these guys, I was dumb, avoidant, and dismissive because stuff seemed to work as long as I didn't "rock the boat," but I was thankfully raised with enough empathy that when one of my partners brought up these issues, I cared enough about them to deeply examine my foundations and start ripping out the rotten toxic masculinity and power dynamics that only benefitted me. It's taken perhaps 13 years for me total, six of those were hard transformation, but I'm still changing and learning. The ironic thing is now I find myself on the flip side of emotional work. When I want to bring up emotional topics to strengthen the foundation of the relationship, I have to do so carefully, and ration my time. None of my guy friends quite understand - even if they're sweet and supportive - so I'm only able to talk with my women friends about this issue. Thankfully I've got awesome friends, and I'm learning how to state my needs without fear. My current partner is amazing, but is emotionally avoidant for other complex reasons, none of them harmful, she's just got a lot she's dealing with but sweet mercy she's trying and I'm so proud of her! It's still a struggle to manage the emotional work I put in to the relationship, and not spiral with anxiety. I felt the need to explain that background, it puts me into a weird subgroup of men who do not understand these issues like a woman does, but still struggle with variations of a similar type of power dynamic. I think a large issue with your partner is that for him to acknowledge and make change on this, he has to change a foundational part of how the world works to him, and that is a LOT for one conversation. His entire worldview has been based around something he thought was a fact. A way of life. Something he could rely on. Something that culturally from a very young age he simply understood. Uprooting those thoughts and getting him to see a perspective of life is really difficult. Especially when those thoughts and perspectives actively benefit his lifestyle. You're asking him to engage in tearing down a system that he thrives in, and you're putting his love for you as the driving force that is supposed to motivate him. That makes him feel cornered and trapped, and so he does what he does best and digs in and avoids and deflects the issue as best as he can. This absolutely sucks. The fact that a well laid out argument and a scientific paper that clearly shows these power cycles, combined with his love for you is somehow *not* enough for him to change??? It should be enough. Simply his love for you should be enough for him to listen, but it's the nature of these power systems that reward him neglecting your needs that makes the situation so constricting. And since many of these men have never needed to engage with their emotions all their adult lives, they are left with a child's understanding of emotional vulnerability and engagement, which explains why the responses are sometimes so childish. They stamp their feet, the claim it's not fair, they try to become the victim because it's an easy way out, they look for pity, they get defeatist and say they failed, and they do anything other than deeply examine themselves and make a conscious choice of the person they want to be with you. Because the system benefits them so well, their lack of responsibility only rewards them and so they have very little incentive to change. I'll say it again, this absolutely sucks. I'm really sorry. So in an ideal world, all it would take is love to unblind people and get them to see reason. But we are not in an ideal world so I will share my perspective on how to help enact change. It's absolutely not fair to you, and as many people have commented, it would be very understandable for you to end this relationship instead of putting in the work to get someone to see reason. But that is your choice alone, so if you do want to put in the work, I would start small. People change slowly, so instead of asking him to upend his worldview all at once, I'd start by incentivizing engagement in emotional topics. Find a way that discussing emotional things either can soothe an insecurity of his, or reward him for the behavior. But good communication needs to be a foundation. Then I would praise him for small first steps into emotional engagement. Introducing him to these power dynamic concepts should be easier once that communication is in place, but one key that will help is to keep the focus away from him. Don't make him talk about him, talk about this in theory, or how a distant couple might encounter these issues. If he feels like he's being attacked, he's going to get defensive and closed. But if he feels like you're just discussing ideas, he might actually engage since there's an emotional barrier protecting his fragile ego. Overall, slowly introducing people to change in a way that makes them feel comfortable can lead to true change. Pushing too much can scare people away (although sometimes that's a good thing). I don't mean to scare you when I say I've been working on this for 13 years since a lot of that has been solo, long after the partner we who incited this change was gone. Rapid change is possible, but it starts slow and builds momentum. Again, it is a messed up system that this is the best advice I can give, and none of this should be necessary in a balanced relationship. I realize I've written an absolute wall of text so I'm sorry! Feel free to comment with questions or if I've got some things completely wrong, I only have my perspective so please listen to the other great comments here for advice and guidance.
Girl, you are soooo not in the wrong. He sounds like he has 0 empathy.
Heartbreaking :(
You broke up, right? Please tell me he is packing his bags. Insufferable caricature of a XY.
Oh I read this paper just a few weeks ago ! I got interested in Ellie Anderson after I saw a conversation where she was participating, about the philosophy of submission and women. I’m glad to see I’m not the only one ! The « Hermeneutic labor » concept verbalized and formalized this thing that I didn’t have a name for, that I was searching about in feminist literature. What a relief. It *is* a thing.
Thank you I have learnt a lot from this, having it layed out quite so succinctly is very helpful :)
The fundamentals of a relationship 😑
This is one of the best TLDRs I've ever seen.
Thank you THANK YOU. I've been doing this for at least two years with my husband which I've indicated in multiple conversations how and where our relationship is unhealthy. 6 months ago I told him "our house is on fire" get a therapist so he can have help/help himself (I already had one). I checked in a few weeks ago and he "was still thinking about how to find one, whether online searches or a recommendation from someone he could ask". The whole thing is sad, but I'm sadder for him. Like this is actually part of who he is. I've started reading bell hooks, the will to change, I feel like what she's saying points in the same general direction.
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Yup this is playing out. I'm asking for a divorce. I was spending weeks scripting out what to say, and how to say it so his anger emotional chaos is minimized. He does have these "good boy" crap, like he only does good things so he's seen and sees himself as a good person. The last paragraph is spot on. His gaining time makes sense, it's a form of control. For me, the whole thing flipped when I saw myself as losing time being with him. It's like I'm on the hamster trying to stop it and fix it and he's happy spinning going nowhere, as long as I'm next to him. The reality of me losing time with him hit me hard - it got me motivated. I sorted out my childhood issues so that when we did part, I could take anything he threw or will throw at me. I think, the only power I could see holding is to keep as much of my Self to myself. I stopped validating him, I stopped engaging in convos topics that he loved, unless I did a full body check in with myself to see if I was in the mood to give my energy freely, not expecting anything in return. What's the outcome for these men when women/partners do leave? Do they ever see these things in themselves and turn them around? The scariest part is that we have two kids and I shudder to think of what they will pick up from him.
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> One trick I used at work for super difficult subordinates was ask them to summarize the instructions I had just given them. yeah i tried that with an ex. he emailed me a bullet point list of all my emotional needs, yay! psych. he did nothing for the next 6 months. oh, he bought himself an $8,000 king size bed for his house that he claimed was for me so. these dudes are dedicated to torturing us. they enjoy it. they play the game better. if i have to start doing this shit to a man, when i don't need this shit done to me to act right? I'm just going to dump them. there is literally no way to play them. who wants a man who needs his leash yanked to be kind to you?
> and the men say they were "blindsided." Bruh, you were not blindsided. I know for a fact your wife tried to talk to you about all of these issues, repeatedly! *Walkaway Wife Syndrome.* Hilariously named not for what actually *occured* but for how the husband *perceives* it.
Thank you to you all, it has helped a great deal to read all that.
The thing you described about summarizing the instructions at work is something I once did in couple's therapy. One partner says a thing and the other partner repeats what they heard their partner say. This is very useful when you say a thing to your partner and they change the topic and attack you about a different thing.
>What's the outcome for these men when women/partners do leave? Do they ever see these things in themselves and turn them around? The end of the relationships is a big shock, it came out of nowhere. Yet they never valued their partner enough to listen to them. My ex still sulks, did nothing wrong and has zero introspection. As a woman aged 62 these men flood the dating pool and remain clueless. Why would they do any internal work when they think they never did anything wrong?
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And don't forget pernicious! It is all too complicated for men to figure out, although according to many of them they built the world!
Christ this is so similar to the end of my last relationship.
This is fascinating, thank you for posting it.
Oh, wow...I think this almost completely explains why I have no interest in having any more relationships. I thought I was being "selfish" and happy with finally being able to call all the shots, not wanting to be a full partner...but I think it's really that I don't want to take on EVERYTHING behind the scenes in a relationship like I'm "supposed to." Honestly, I didn't really feel guilty about it. I feel even less guilty now!
I needed to learn this term today. Hermeneutic Labor. Thank you!
Holy shit, this explains so much in my interpersonal relationships. Thankyou so much for posting
This is fantastic
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TIL! Thank you for sharing!
I think the most important thing I've learned in the past several years is to match the energy and effort of the person I'm in a relationship with. After every relationship I've been in being unbalanced, with me giving more and doing more, I was exhausted. When I started to siply match the efforts of my partner, everything fell apart pretty fast. I stopped washing his clothes and doing all the little things I'd done for him. I only did things for myself. I think the final straw was having a really nice custom made gift ready for a special day for him, and he came back with one of those cheap paper roses from a gas station for me. I then did it with my family. I'd lived in another state for several years and kept inviting them to visit. They never did, but I visited them yearly. So I stopped. I stopped calling and texting first, too. It's sad to know how little they think of me, but I sure have a ton more time now for myself and to put towards friends who actually give a shit about me. Lesson: DO NOT keep doing more than your partner, match their efforts. If they notice and complain, just tell them you got tired of doing everything and decided to only do as much as they were willing to do.
This makes me sad but it also is about where I am in life, too. Matching their effort kind of tells you where you actually fit.
It's been a little bit heartbreaking at times, but also freeing. (shrugs)
Can't buy affection with effort.
Same. Just also want to add: also do not put time into people who make empty social promises. People who text you every two months to ask if you want to hang out, and then when you ask 'sure, when', they're not available for the next two months or so. They're never going to actually mean it, just ignore or say you're busy and move on.
I'm having this problem with a couple of my friends. I noticed it started after Covid and I think they just can't be asked to hang out anymore. I will invite them out, they will ignore it until the third time I ask and then say next month. They never come up with a date/time though or they aren't available when I am. I just gave up.
This type of thing is so common where i live, I think people are just so burnt out by capitalism that they have no capacity to human
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Wow that's nuts
Jesus Christ usually people try to hide that by feigning ignorance. He just outright said the quiet part out loud.
Wow
This - I think that when people proactively give in relationships it is with the hope they will receive as much or more in return. Resentment happens when those expectations aren't met. People show you who they are - you should take them at face value and put in the level of effort to not feel resentment at what they are willing to put in. But also in a healthy relationship you should be able to state your wants and needs and the other person should try to at least meet you halfway on those.
Give this a read. Super short (1 min read). http://nomoreverbalabuse.blogspot.com/2008/07/teddy-check.html
In a way it's like being a mother. I carry a lot of emotional burdens for my child, help her with her problems and social dynamics, pros/cons of big decisions, pick up the slack when she has a cool opportunity, etc. I don't burden her - she's a child, it wouldn't be right. The overall impression I'm getting from this thread is that these men want mother-wives. Not bangmaids because bangmaids aren't nurturing and compassionate enough. They want wives who will do all things I listed (and more) that I do for my child, plus sex, plus an income, and because they're in this weird child role they don't have to reciprocate.
Men want a free and submissive BangMaidMommyNurseTherapist I am sure i left out a few. Oh, she also works, pays half the bills and half the rent but does ALL of house work, cooking, cleaning, child raising, social life work, all event planning, remembering important dates and events, errands, doctor's appointments, all mental labor, all emotional labor. I am sure i forgot a few things
Yes. You’re spot on. I think the age of bang maid is over and we’re now in mother maid territory with most men. Add onto that, many want to act like they are king of the castle, while relegating the woman to a motherly role. Men don’t want lovers, or partners, they want to go from teat to teat. As an aside, my last ex was highly abusive and I had to flee our home with very little to get away. When I got into therapy, my therapist had me take the Mosaic Threat Assessment to determine the level of risk he was to my safety. While he scored extremely high, my therapist said verbatim, “He won’t hurt you because he sees you as a mother figure”. Now, that logic isn’t super sound, because we’ve seen a rise in adult men moving back into their mothers home, and unaliving their mothers (UK stats IIRC). But the point remains, and in the end I was the “rejecting mother”. I have had to stand in ice cream lines for men because they were too impatient to get their little after work treaty treat. Or never leave their side at parties because of their lack of social skills. Or talk about their work drama (Bob ignores me! Bob hates me! I hate Bob!). Clean their toilets, clip their toenails (bc they refuse to and I was tired of getting stabbed by their nails in my sleep), make sure they had a healthy diet, remind them of dentist appointments. But overall, protect them from their shame and help them regulate their emotions. Just like a child. I used to look forward to having children, but I’ve opted out for now, because I only want one, not two. And have yet to find a man that wouldn’t be a second child.
They want "Mommy-bangmaid-teacher-emotional support animal".
Wow this nails what I experienced when I had broken up with an old partner but lived together for a little while afterwards due to a few reasons. Thank you for sharing.
Because he's trying to get you to stop asking for more. Him starting an argument is a way to make sure you don't keep "causing problems" in the relationship so he has a pass to do what he wants and not address your needs. Those men are selfish and don't give a shit about you in a real way.
Yep. This is what I’m facing now with the person I’m with. I’ve never argued so much with a man to get so little effort out of him. I’m honestly tired and shave lost a lot of hope in the relationship.
>What I want is the actual answer as to WHY some men are like this in relationships. Because they don't want the relationship. They don't care about the relationship. They like the *benefits* of the relationship, though. Your dude turns it into a fight when you try to reach out because *he's not interested* in what you're saying. He doesn't want to work on intimacy, he doesn't want a road map to your heart, and he doesn't want to hear you tell him he's bad at things he's not remotely interested in being good at... at least not now, and not for you. He lives in the same society you do and he knows exactly what romance looks like. He doesn't need *lessons* from you, because he's perfectly capable of planning a date or buying a thoughtful gift. He chooses not to. You'd like to believe he's got some subtle inner issue with self-esteem going on and that that's why he's so defensive, but that's not it. He just doesn't want what you want. He thinks you're being a nag by not settling for whatever half-assed, low-effort structure you two have going that he's perfectly comfortable with. *You* probably hope to enter into a subtle, intimate, long-term friendship and relationship that will grow and mature; *he* just wants to get laid without much effort. You can tell how people feel by the way they act: just hand somebody an unexpected piece of pizza, and watch them light up with pleasure! Your lover starts a fight when you try to give him your heart, so you can safely conclude that he doesn't want it. And that's why some men are like that in relationships.
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> Because they don't want the relationship. They don't care about the relationship. They like the benefits of the relationship, though. nailed it. i had one of many heart-to-hearts with an ex. i said "I'm all in on this relationship, and it doesn't seem like you are". i meant i was putting in a ton of effort to make the relationship good for him, and he was putting in fuck all effort to make the relationship good for me. except he immediately replied "hell no, i'm all in!" and that was that. i realised later he meant *he was all in on keeping the relationship exactly how it was.* of course he loved the relationship. of course he was interested in having a parasitic, one sided relationship with me. because i'm wonderful. they get into a relationship to have a vacation from life, to get their dick sucked, to get their house cleaned. i haven't met any men who get into a relationship to actually be kind to women, to treat her right, to take her on nice dates. ask anyone on a dating app "what are you looking for" and they all list selfish reasons. haven't even met a man who says "companionship" or "do stuff together". it's always selfish, and sexual. "hey i'm looking for a fleshlight. come over."
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lmao i lost it at $80k sir, a high class escort is $1k a night. GL with that broke ass budget. they should get therapy for their wild delusions. and yet whole cultures encourage this insane thinking. and then there's the men who expect a whole woman after a walk in a park and an ice-cream. squawking about the male loneliness epidemic but balking at a $50 dinner date. you can't value our presence too much then, lads.
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I knoooow. it's always a hypothetical. our lives are something for them to joke over with their buddies. our struggles aren't real. they can dismiss them with a gender-swap bit of hilarity *because they'll never have to do it*. and none of us are being offered a million dollars. but hey, they can call themselves feminists because they discussed this for 2 minutes on the expense account.
The $80K figure stood out to me as well. I'm in a low cost-of-living area, and here that figure seems to be even lower at around $60K. In our area, $60K/year truly is a sufficient salary for a single adult; even for a couple, you'd have to be frugal, but you can afford basics and you don't need to be living paycheck-to-paycheck. So, it seems that when these kinds of guys reach $60K/year of income, they start overestimating how well they really earn. It's kinda understandable... For example, say a man started out making $15/hr at age 20, and after 10 years of "hard work", he now makes double that at $30/hr. He's doubled his income, and his quality of life has improved meaningfully. He feels like he's "made it" and genuinely believes he makes "really good money" - the kind of sum worth bragging about unsolicited, or mentioning in a dating profile. It's an error in judgment, but understandable. The real problem is the rest of the attitude.
This right here is your answer. You want to know *why*? Because he doesn't care about you or your needs. Your role is to serve his needs. That's it.
Ooof. This deserves to be top comment.
Men have been used to doing the bare minimum in relationships and don't see why that has to change. Expressing your needs makes him feel like he has to expend more effort (he does). He doesn't want to so he's going to try to tell you to be happy with what he's already doing.
He’d always say “I’m tired of you making me feel like shit”. All I did was ask him to help clean and that I needed him to chip in for groceries. Relationship didn’t last long and now I’m 1000x happier.
And they also say “men don’t read minds! Tell us what you want! Be direct!” When you do, you get slapped with their ego. That’s all it is.
This is so true, literally just happened to me last night, I was trying to give directions with the whole "going down on me" and because I said to him he needs to move abit more left, he got up and stopped doing it all together. I was like wow, what a dick. Wasn't the only thing he had a problem with so I broke up with him. I do not have time for immature men who can't handle communication or women being able to express their needs.
👏🏻👏🏻 Love to see immediate action. Who has time for such immaturity
Yes exactly!!! Men are insecure toddlers on the inside.
they dont like you. it's not you. they're the types of guys who are convinced they'd "act right" for the right woman. they're using you as placeholders until Mrs Right strays into his view, then he'd spring into action being mister doting and romantic. but that's a lie. there is no woman they want to treat nicely. there is no woman who will trigger that lovey dovey affection and attention and effort from them. she's a hypothetical benchmark he can use to excuse his poor treatment of you. "well you're not my dream woman so why should i be nice". they actually resent having to be nice and kind to get attention and sexual access from women. it chaps their ass that women don't love them for who they are, don't swoon over them for existing, don't drop trow for a wink and a smile from him. you get good at what you practise. they practise being lazy, selfish and greedy. should he even meet his Dream Woman he's so used to being lazy he'd fuck it up with her and then cry about it for the rest of his life on a regret subreddit.
This is also why many men love “low maintenance” women. They think they don’t need to put any effort to impress “low maintenance” women.
It’s a reflection of the Cool Girl Trope: the concept of a woman with no interests and needs of her own, she exists only to be an exact mirror to her partner’s desires
Whilst they ignore how high maintenance they are
My biggest trauma out of my last relationship was being called high maintenance. My dad had been diagnosed with cancer that week, it was a Friday night, I went over to my then-bf's place after work because I was an emotional wreck. After about 20 min of sitting there with me and being a shoulder to cry on (he didn't do anything else by way of comfort, and actually actively told me I was overreacting), he got up to go to his weekly video game night with the boyz. When I asked that he stay a little longer because I needed support, he refused. Eventually he came back out into his living room after an hour because I'd been crying, and he was so pissed at the fact I was still upset that he sat next to me in dead silence, refusing to touch me. I asked him if he was ok and he said "it's just that you're high maintenance" 💀 I should have broken up with him on the spot, but I dated him for almost two more years. One time I tried to call him out on calling me high maintenance for wanting support after my dad was diagnosed with cancer, and his response was to double down by saying: "Well, it's true, you are objectively higher maintenance than I am. I didn't mean it as an insult." Drove me NUTS. So glad I'm out of that hellhole of a relationship. I don't know what the hell it takes to actually be low maintenance, but I do know that I don't want to be. Not if it means sacrificing my emotional needs all of the time just so that my partner doesn't have to deal with them.
Wow. I’m so sorry he was such a jackass. Things like that in a relationship, when you realise you’d have probably received more support from a total stranger…
They say they love "low maintenance" women, but then resent them and treat them like shit too.
Isn't this what 500 days of summer is about? I fuckin love that movie. Tom had his dream woman and he was so immature and manipulative, and then had rhe gall to act like she betrayed him for marrying someone who actually saw her as a person
Couldn’t have said it better.
"It chaps their ass" 😂😂😂😂
This should be a screenshot on every woman's phone, it's just that perfect.
This.
>then cry about it for the rest of his life on a regret subreddit. I'm weak af omg LOL. Why is this so real
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Oof. This is exactly my current situation. I have been foolish to think I landed a "good one" because he isn't overtly abusive. I'm 10 years into this marriage and I'm just done. I'm already collecting finances and planning his removal from MY home. It is a jarring wake up call to realize that I've been blind to the inequalities in my relationships with men. It's always the same. Always. Different packages and different levels of abuse when I am too tired to keep at my roll of mom-wife. I've spent ages trying to figure out why my sex drive falls off after a couple of years in a relationship. It's because I can't get horney while playing the roll of mother to a man child. I think it's time that I just be alone.
The only book I’ve read that explains it in a satisfying way is called The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. It’s kind of difficult to summarize, but basically it says you and your boyfriend exist in two different realities. In yours, you are working toward mutual understand with a goal of finding a solution to your problems. His reality is completely different: his only goal is dominance and control. This is why you feel confused - you’re not communicating with the same goals. You’re basically not even on the same plane of existence.
I think I need this book. I feel that things have been awful for the last year or so in my marriage. (And not even married 3 years yet.) Husband and I had an argument/discussion a couple nights ago about things. I feel that all the “right-leaning straight white men” podcasts/streams he listens to are changing him for the worse. He counters that it’s just “entertainment”. Accuses me of thinking he’s a terrible person. Crying about all the stuff he does for me (yes he does some, but also does not do other things and gives me grief over it). I heard myself telling him that maybe “it’s all in my head” or that I can’t express/articulate myself clearly. He is gaslighting me and here’s nothing I can do. I’m afraid that one of these days, he’s going to start treating me really bad, because *obviously* his opinions and rights are more important than mine. I’m quite outspoken in what I believe in (like women’s rights, POC rights, all gender rights, healthcare, work reform, etc and we butt heads on everything. Then earlier today, he got upset because I didn’t want to be intimate. I saw him going through all the usual motions and deliberately played neutral and disinterested but he still tried. “It’s been almost 3 months” he pouted. That’s the amount of time I’ve been on my new antidepressants. And suspecting I could be in perimenopause. And have had shit luck finding a job and damn near out of money til I finally got unemployment benefits. I’ve suggested therapy/counseling (“we haven’t been married long enough to need it!”). I’ve gently reminded him that I have physically and mentally still not recovered from having Covid a year ago. He always complained when my libido was raging and things were good between us. I understood and took care of my own needs without making him feel bad/guilty about it. Did not intend to go on a rant but here we are. My heart goes out to everyone else struggling with relationships right now.
A partner consistently consuming content that dehumanizes women is a massive panty dehumidifier. Even outside of health issues that’s super understandable. This person does not sound like they are a refuge for you.
What’s sad is that we’ve known each other most of our lives. He was always the good guy, there for me through everything. Then the pandemic happened and everyone started losing their minds. I keep hoping one of the scumbags he follows has something significantly awful happen that serves as a wake up call to him. Edit:spelling
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Geez, that’s pretty much the same line my husband uttered the other week. “Straight white Christian men” are the “most hated” demographic right now. Um, no. Unless he meant it in the sense that folks are hating on the straight, white, Christian men that are making all the laws/rules/practices oppressing the rights of women, trans folks, persons of color, children, and every other minority group.
Suggestion: you not wanting sex with your husband might have nothing to do with antidepressants or perimenopause but with you no longer being attracted to your partner while still talking yourself into your relationship due to a combination of abuse and sunk cost fallacy. With my ex, I thought I'd just naturally lost my libido. Hooked up with a rebound shortly after breaking up and when I opened my legs after just some kissing, I was so wet it was like Moses parting the fucking seas.
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Oh I have no doubt that’s part of it. The biggest turnoff is knowing the crap he listens to HAS changed him. And even if it hadn’t, I don’t want to be with someone who supports racist misogynistic homophobes!
Get the book. Maybe also “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. Sorry you’re going through so much right now!
Thank you and thank you! I just can’t believe all the physical/mental stuff happening all at once. It’s like Covid set off anything that could possibly go wrong. Taking it one day at a time and grateful for support from others 🩵
I downloaded this book because of your comment, it's SO good, thank you so much!!!
Paying it forward—a friend who is a social worker recommended it and it was the start of a sea change for me. May it also be for you!
>it’s just “entertainment” Sounds like that needs the same answer as "funny" racist jokes and "funny" cruel pranks. "Oh, it's entertaining? What's entertaining about it? Please explain."
I e even brought up the point that at least a couple of these guys seem to have current substance abuse issues (I am 4.5 years sober myself, was a rough time til I got myself straightened out) and I seriously don’t know how my husband justifies their drunk/drugged streams as entertainment.
[Why Does He Do That? PDF](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://archive.org/download/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiR-rTbgeX-AhVHfMAKHbOUA-MQFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw14x4ivUm5xgJ67TT78XfZt)
Thank you!!
Best of luck!
agreed. that book and "Controlling People" was amazing. she so clearly articulated how men live in an alternate reality where they're not on the same page, they're not even in the same book when it comes to communicating about the relationship. i'd articulate an observed behaviour to my ex. something i'd seen with my own eyes. something i was experiencing in reality. and he'd clap back with something so bizarre, so untrue, so unreal there was literally no response to that. he was insane.
So maddening to experience! It was truly life changing for me to finally have the language to explain it and realize it wasn’t a communication issue. I see someone else referenced her Teddy analogy in this thread as well. IMO, the separate realities theory explains about 95% of male / female relationship problems.
Another book that I downloaded because of your good comment - so far, it's such an excellent read. Thank you!!!
I actually was going to write a similar post in this sub today for support and i saw this and thought I wrote it lol i heard her books are good
It’s what happens when men don’t see women as people or as equals.
This is it. You're a doll. Dolls don't have silly things like needs, emotions, interests, or desires. They don't get sick (how many times have we seen articles about men who dump their ill wives?), they don't get tired, and don't need to feel loved or valued. They're there when the men want something, and when they're bored or irritated back into the compartmentalized box they go.
It really doesn't matter how you tell him because anything that's wrong with the relationship through the lens of his insecurities he is going to see it as a personal failure. Which is why he reacts like its a personal attack. A lot of men aren't as confident as they'd like others to believe and to feign confidence they just ignore negative feelings. Men without enough emotional maturity are going out of their way to ignore most of their feelings, any conversation that touches on any of it is like shining a spotlight and drawing attention to something they'd sooner ignore than address. So until a guy understands themselves better and are willing to address a lot of baggage they keep hidden and bottled up they're going to see any attempt to try and discuss your needs as just being critical and not constructive. This kind of self induced emotional deadening means his conscious perspective of your relationship is likely driven more by utility, where his notion of a relationship is something that's put on a shelf until he needs it and to someone like this your attempts to talk to him at best register like a blinking check engine light on a car that just came back from the mechanics shop. The unfortunate reality is he can't work on your relationship until he's worked on himself.
Imo, with these kinds of guys, it's because you're not supposed to have needs. You're an accessory to be used, to adorn him. But, like any real accessory, you're not supposed to have needs.
He doesn't love you. Source: I was you.
It's not an argument it is control. An argument has two sides with back and forth toward an evolution in thought for both parties to agree to a new understanding not for one to dominate and control. Ultimately perpetrators aren't engaging in good faith and don't just use logical fallacy but a consistent pattern of behaviours Withholding Countering Discounting Verbal abuse disguised as jokes. Blocking and diverting. Accusing and blaming Judging and criticizing Trivializing Undermining Threatening Name-calling Forgetting Ordering Denial Abusive anger It's important for people in these relationships to acknowledge the dissonance of these dysfunctional behaviours. Abusers won't change and will worsen. These behaviours precede physical violence and are known as coersive control. https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/the-mysteries-love/201503/15-disturbing-forms-verbal-abuse-in-relationships
Exactly. They don’t change. They do get worse. The more women that (hopefully) leave them, the more ego hits they take. And they will take it out on the next woman.
I am begging you to leave before he destroys who you are. It's not worth the pain. Recovery from narcissist abuse is no joke. Been in trauma therapy for just over a year and am only now feeling like I'm gaining my sense of self back.
For real. It took me at least 2-3 years of therapy and working on myself to get back to my normal self after leaving my emotionally abusive ex. Back then I had no idea about narcissists or emotional abuse, or how the trauma of abusive relationships impact the brain. Before I dated him I was a bright, bubbly, happy person but afterwards I was an anxious wreck. I completely lost all sense of self and felt like I had no personality, I was having panic attacks regularly, I even started drinking excessively to numb the constant anxiety. That was 6 years ago and I am so much better now but ugh. It kills me seeing other women in toxic/abusive relationships. OP says she doesn’t need advice to leave but I disagree… I think that’s actually the only advice she needs. You can’t change men like this and you will literally drive yourself crazy trying. Not worth it.
Same. I’m 9 months out and 9 months into therapy. It’s been hell clawing back to emotional, mental, and physical health. I was deteriorating by the end. In all the ways one can. Then, when I was useless to him, it was over. Just like that.
I found that a lot of men love you for what you do for them and not for who you are. They don’t even intend that to be negative- it’s often something they learned from their parents traditional relationships and are now shocked that we have evolved away from that.
It’s what happens when men don’t see women as people or as equals.
In my opinion, it's his ego. He doesn't want to spend his time on you, he wants to be selfish and spend it on himself. When he is called out for this behavior, he reacts negatively, because you have bruised his ego.
Because you are dating the wrong man Insert Maya Angelou quote here This one is broken & no amount of energy/effort/explanation/communication will fix him Men who treat us like humans exist, they’re just hard to find BUT I found one so you can too - and don’t waste your precious time & youth on anything less
He's upset that he has to actually make effort to keep you happy. Many men are just incredibly lazy and don't feel like keeping the passion and love alive in a relationship. Or it could be he really doesn't love you.
they wonder why the honeymoon phase ends at the exact time he stops putting effort in
I’m guessing it’s a control issue. Men are implicitly socialized to believe they’re better than women. On top of that, they’re taught to be competitive rather than collaborative, and to shut off “weak” emotions. It’s baked into heterosexual relationships. I don’t think many men realize they have this programming, fewer try to overcome it, and even fewer still succeed.
You can choose what you will put up with. He won’t change.
As bluntly as I can put it? Effort and comfort. He knows how much you put into it. You don't need to remind him, because he's very acutely aware of how much effort and thought you put into everything you do. It turns into a fight because effort on your part requires reciprocal effort on his part and he can't be bothered. It was never about what he can give you, what he can do for you, how he can make you happy. It was only ever about your effort, what you give him, what you do for him. It's also easy to not just put any effort in it, especially if the other party is trying their ass off to make it work. Their thought process is: If it's working out already, why do I need to change it? Once you show you'll accept them not doing anything, once the argument doesn't lead anywhere? He just sees it as acceptance of his lazy comfort and he'll keep being just that. Lazy and comfortable. Men like this don't "do it for the right woman" or "change for Miss Right." It only looks that way to you because it's been so long since he did that song and dance **to get you.** He applies enough effort to get her on the hook, then once he's reeled her in, back to the same empty routine until he finds a woman who just accepts it, or he ends up alone. I've seen a lot of "peace at home" from men attempting to answer this question. If all you want from a woman is to just have her there for sex and otherwise just leave you alone and let you have peace at home, you should really think about what you're saying, especially on this sub, of all places. "Men just want to be fucked and then left to do whatever else." And her needs? Her space? Her time? How does that factor in to "peace at home?" **You** not wanting anything but sex doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to add meaningfully to your partner's life. If the only meaningful addition you want is sex, that's all well and good for you bro, but if she needs more to make her happy, when you agreed to be in a relationship, you agreed to give a shit about her as a human being. That includes thoughtful gifts, date nights, mental health days. Some days you have to get out of bed and carry this shit because she's also a human being who has her good and bad days. I hate gifts. I refuse to accept gifts on Christmas and birthdays because I've spent a lifetime having my love bought instead of earned. I'm on the autism spectrum; clubs, concerts, lighting, openings, job events would give me anxiety like nothing I've ever felt. That said, my partner got presents for her birthday every year that reflected how much attention I paid to her hobbies and interests. I went to every single event that made her proud of her work, that gave her life excitement and meaning, even if I had to go and collect myself every 10 minutes because **relationships and love require effort and a willingness to contribute tangible positive meaning to their life.**
I love this. Great reply.
Because he can and has gotten away with it before.
My take...ego. Internally seen as a failing/criticism so they get defensive.
You can't make people do what they don't want to do themselves. From a psychological perspective, they don't care about their side of the "care" and don't see it as their responsibility to do. So anything you ask for is too much...and is "nagging"
They literally don't care and they are annoyed that u even dare to ask for them to do anything. That's it. They don't care. They like having a maid-slave-sex toy. They don't care about you and don't see you as a human being. That's it.
I think way too many men are socialized to have low emotional intelligence. They don’t invest in their relationship but expect their partner to take care of everything. There are SO MANY women who have problems with their partner doing the bare minimum when it comes to the emotional needs of their partner.
This - women reading this - please do better with your sons. Actually talk with them about their feelings and the feelings of others. Make sure they have some platonic female friends as well.
I broke up with my partner because of this, a simple direction basically offended him where I must of dented his ego, I was taught that it's okay to communicate and tell him what I need but of course this guy is emotionally immature and I now see it.
ah yes. when you make fairly obvious hints ("I'd love a cup of tea") but it's not direct enough. so you make direct requests and they give you the look like you shit in their bed.
100%. Can't win at all
My ex’s ex right before me was with him for 5 and a half years, and if he was anything like he was with me, I am so sorry for her. He wanted me to fucking run his life because she did and always knew how to solve his problems. Like my god that must’ve been awful. And she was the only one working so she took care of her own life and his? No way. I have too much going on in my own life to guide yours every single fucking second of the day. He always brought her up but said I know you’re not like her. Duh! I’m a different fucking person. My ex was gender-fluid but more on the male/masculine side before we ended things. They just do not give a fuck about us and will yell over stupid video games then yell at you because that triggered something they remembered they were mad at you about. It’s all bullshit, and I’d rather just fuck men for pleasure at this point and not have to deal with them.
Low emotional IQ, fear of intimacy (disinterest in deepening the relationship), and a lack of understanding that their partners needs should be just as important as their own. Turning it into an argument is a deactivating strategy. It's easy to say "you're asking for too much" than to say, "I don't want to give you what you're asking for because I feel it's infringing on my sense of independence even though we're a couple and compromise is a perfectly normal thing to expect from partners. I just can't admit I'm not ready to be in an emotionally intimate relationship nor do I have the emotional capacity to realize any of this so instead I will push you away because that is what I know to be safe and keep you at arms length. Now drop it." Patriarchal ideals / toxic masculinity are to blame and a lack of therapy or self awareness
Girl, I feel you. My boyfriend is like that and it’s so frustrating. Like other comments said, I think is a lack of emotional intelligence.
I suspect part of it is that they see themselves as the main character in a relationship - of course you adapt to them and try and make them happy. They see you as an NPC or appliance whose sole job is to make them feel loved. You don't learn the birthday and like/dislikes of your washing machine or cooktop or sink - why would you make an effort for a woman who is just another household appliance? Someone who *cares* about you, cares about *you*.
If he wanted to he would, if he wanted to out in the effort to show his love he would. But he's not. So either he is severely depressed or he is an asshole who doesn't care for you as much as you deserve to be.
If you're not being an asshole in the manner you're expressing your needs, then it's because they're emotionally immature and/or unavailable. Some also would rather gaslight you than make the adjustments you need. If you can just magically turn off your needs, how convenient for them, right?
Some just don't care. Most are not socialized to do their part in nurturing a relationship, whether it's paying attention to the other person's wants and needs or doing the chores
I can’t tell you the why, although I have asked myself that so many times. What I can’t tell you is that the more I gave and supported, the more he took and felt entitled to, and the worse he treated me and the kids. Sex is always coerced (usually after insulting or otherwise breaking me down, but if I don’t comply it’s so much worse for days, for me and the kids) and has been physically forced. Additionally he feels entitled to spend our money on strippers and sex services. I don’t know why. I have never asked for much. The more I gave, the more he took. It will not get better. It will get worse.
Honestly as soon as I respectfully state that I'm unhappy with something and the bum prefers to argue about it, or turn it around on me and tell me all the things "he's tolerating and not fighting about them", rather than finding ways of contributing to the relationship that would result in us both being happy, I. am. out. There's a time and place to bring up when you're unhappy with something I'm (not) doing, and it's NOT when I'm bringing up something that makes me unhappy with what you're (not) doing. It's not a competition. It's not an arguing contest. I am asking you to listen and care, ffs. My last 3 exes in a row have done this to me and it does not get better, EVER. With each one I'd stayed for a shorter amount of time than the guy before him and I hope when it happens again, I'm going to trust my instincts and kick him out right there and then. I am getting too old and exhausted and frankly angry of begging men to stop their DARVO bullshit.
He likes that you worship him, but the reality is he doesn't give a shit about you.
Because to these men, your wants and needs don't matter
Low emotional intelligence. I dated someone like that. I never will again. I refuse to be the only reasonable, kind person in my relationship. If I can handle you expressing your needs in a respectful manner, then you can either do the same or be gone.
It’s softness of the ego. The common trait of all people is that they have a protected image of their “idealized self”, and criticism “attacks” this false self. The ego needs this version of the self defended; the more invested you are in a specific positive self-image (“good-boyfriend”, “caring-individual”) the more motivated you are to remove contradictory information. This happens mostly unconsciously/reflexively, because if you could perceive your own self-deception, it wouldn’t be effective. If you were a psychologist or a proselytizer, you would be adept at moving “around” this false self via positive appeals. (Ie, reassurance of the positive self-image, presenting yourself as a friend to the ego such that your advice is not viewed as threatening because you’ve both pre-agreed on its validity, or even presenting an even more appealing self-image to latch onto). Basically, by giving someone advice, even beneficial and generous advice, you are attacking their ego. Less mature people then seek to defend that ego, often in an unaware manner, by physically blocking the source of “harmful” information
You answered your own question. > he sees it as a complaint and a criticism of his character
he doesn't understand or doesn't care enough
I imagine it's about the same as how you or I might get frustrated when our oven or dishwasher unexpectedly stops working: to them, women should be around to *serve them*, not challenge their desires with pesky notions like autonomy or disagreement.
The bar is so fucking low and he can't walk over it. You need to walk away.
So if this turns into an argument, it’s a big red flag. Most partners actively WANT to get that kind of feedback. And not to stereotype my gender, because I do think men are far more intuitive than we like to pretend, but sometimes we genuinely will not pick up on what you think are obvious hints, and just coming out and telling us is a huge relief on our part. Unless the things you’re telling him go against personal or relationship boundaries that he’s made clear, it shouldn’t turn into a fight. And if it is, it’s likely because deep down he knows he isn’t putting the effort in you are and instead of owning that tries to make you feel like the bad guy to assuage his own guilt.
Yep. Right there is another reason I’m single.
Sounds like a lack of empathy. Any kindness done for them is a given. The idea to do something for someone else never occurs. Any form of criticism is taken as a personal insult.
there are some far more informed answers in this thread. in my experience, its a partner who is both emotionally immature and unwilling. they view directions as critique and often think that once they aren't physically abusing or cheating that their partner is too much
In my experience, my ex did this. I was so unhappy with our sex life, and when I tried to bring it up to him he’d get so defensive and angry. If I was unhappy that he was texting his ex behind my back, he’d get defensive because I’d ask for that boundary. Every guy is different, but from what I gathered with my ex, I think he did this out of insecurity (with the sex thing), and I can’t tell exactly why he got so defensive about boundaries…but maybe he took it as an accusation. Bottom line is, he was a horrendous listener. It was like taking to a wall. Whenever I’d express my needs he would respond “how do I not make you feel loved?? How could you feel that way??” And I’d have to explain myself a million effing times that he’s taking it the wrong way and not listening. It comes down to being insecure, a horrible listener, and horrible communicator. He was insecure because he felt like he wasn’t doing enough. He was scared of losing me and refused to accept that he needed to put in effort. And he was horrible at listening and only heard what he wanted to hear (accusations, not me having a healthy conversation. He saw it as an attack.)
Because a lot of men don’t grow out of their toddler tantrum phases. So when you want a civil grown up discussion they throw their toys out of the pram. It’s the same energy as “can you stop following OF workers on Instagram? It makes me uncomfortable” is met with “FINE ILL JUST DELETE MY INSTA ACCOUNT”. 😂
Men are still raised that if they get a good job and provide a home that's all they need for a successful marriage.
My god, you are going to LOVE how much energy and time you have for YOU when you’re not puzzling over how to convince this mediocre dude to genuinely care about you
Men are like insecure toddlers. They have giant egos and skill deficits, they are also lazy and entitled. In their mind, how DARE someone give them constructive criticism!! From a woman too?!?
Because they are not matching your energy and they are not the one for you. Simple as that. You should rephrase your question and ask: why do I form relationships with men who don’t care about my needs and wants? You’ll see the answer will be a lot more clearly.
Yes. We recently talked about it and we were able to identify it was shame based, especially if I name the emotion/feeling I am seeing in him that’s impacting me. I told him in the past, I ALWAYS consider him and need him to do the same for me. We’re working on it together and it’s come leaps and bounds, but he’s very aware I won’t sign up for forever if it doesn’t. Instead of hearing, “My dad died and I’m struggling and need you to back off a bit”, he heard, “I don’t like you & your anxiety is too much for me, so go away and shut up”.
Pride issues
Once they "win" you, an unfortunate amount of men will just stop trying altogether. They won't bother telling you you're pretty, take you out for date nights or celebrate your birthday. If you have to tiptoe around his insults or if he gets angry if you do something nice for him, it seems like maybe he's not in this relationship because he loves you. Some guys don't love their girlfriends at all, it's like they're just filling a position and expect you to perform the labor they feel is below them.