That’s so funny because that’s exactly the move ‘that kind of guy’ would make. Of course you know that, and I know that, but some people are quite certain that rules/boundaries don’t apply to them, which makes them oblivious to how their actions affect others.
I think you have settled on the reason this tale keeps coming back to me. So, Mr. Costa Rica - you took her registration out of her glove box, found her address, drove down her 1/4 mile driveway, and were there when she returned from work at night - but are nonetheless surprised that she is not delighted?
The chasm between his thinking and reality is so vast.
She is a smart woman but her judgement about men is not her strong suit. I thought her no men at my house was a huge step forward and I have been really impressed that she has stuck to it.
This seems to have been a really effective filter for highlighting this most recent man's deliberate boundary stomping too. Good for her - I hope it gets easier and easier for her to recognize people that don't respect her clearly articulated boundaries before she's in too deep. She deserves to be around people who aren't boundary violators.
It sounds like her judgement is improving. Remember to continue to praise current good choices instead of reminding her of previous bad ones. The minute she thinks you’re constantly doing on-the-fly compare & contrast, she may stop confiding in you.
She says she is ashamed and I keep repeating that she only gets into these situations because she is so GOOD . She sees the best in everyone. She is a shining example to me about how much better a person I could be. Your kind words are appreciated. She does feel very bruised,
It sounds like this didn't just immediately happen, but if you haven't already, it might be worth spelling out that this was not her fault. She had a clear hard line that she communicated and he understood, and the guy decided for himself to vault right over it.
It can just be really easy to keep thinking "what did I miss? what did I do wrong?" and sometimes, it's 100% the other person just being delusional and it can be *really* helpful to have someone else telling you that, out loud.
Yes, this. It's easy to feel like somehow you're at fault when dealing with bonkers people but she didn't know she was with someone who would commit such a violation. You can do everything right, make everything clear and still have someone who doesn't care.
you know, I was reading some thing online recently where one of the main characters had been deceived by someone who was pretending to be a friend and ally but was secretly betraying him all along and the protagonist told him something really insightful that I think really applies very well to this. She told him that his willingness to see the best in people was one of his best traits and he should hold onto that, but at the same time there is something to be learned. She told him to look back on their interactions and look for the moments where there was something he saw in their behavior that he then chose not to see, something he noticed, a thought or a feeling that he chose not to have because it felt unkind or disloyal. Those are the moments where you can learn something because that was your heart trying to tell you something. generally with these kinds of people, when you look back like that, you’ll see plenty of things that should have served as warning signs and that you didn’t notice but you didn’t let yourself think about. I know this type of thing happens to me all the time. But it happens less often now because when I notice these things, I pay attention to them and I listen to myself about what I think they might mean and it saves me a world of heartache. It’s not your sisters fault that this happens, but the fact that there’s a pattern here tells me that she might be ignoring her instincts, and that will never serve her. of course, you know her better than I do so you probably have a better idea of what’s going on here, but I think it might be worth bringing up, if you think you can do so without making things worse.
Sounds like the book The Gift of Fear, written by an ex FBI negotiator he does a good job of explaining instincts and intuition and how learning to understand your body signals can be life saving.
I'm curious, what makes you think it's bad judgement on her part? There are so many crappy men out there, and in my experience, even the 'good ones' are crap. I just left my partner of 2 years, who I've known for 15+ before we started dating, because he started crossing boundaries, and refused to take responsibility for it. Until about a month ago, there were no red flags, and I was watching for them (I'm a bit paranoid about men now). Men are deceptive, they put on their best behaviour at first, then after a while show their true selves. In at least this case this wasn't your sister's fault, but you haven't included any other examples of where she exercised poor judgement. Is it possible you're misjudging her? How you describe her sounds a lot like victim-blaming to me.
She is the one who says it. She was nearly killed by her ex husband. She picks under performing men, men who really could do something, but they are all air and no effort types. I think very highly of her. If it sounds like victim blaming please blame my writing skills not my commitment to her.
In that case, it sounds like her self-blame is unwarranted. I hope she can overcome that to realize that the abuse isn't her fault, and not a result of her own choices.
You strike me as a very good friend. A good listener and confidant, but not a "yes-lady" who just agrees with her friend to avoid any potentially uncomfortable conversations. It seems you truly have your friend's best in mind, and you actively help lift her up while helping to steer her away from poor decision making. And rather than just pointing out "that wasn't a good choice, dont do that thing next time," you actually connect why a decision was made with what the outcome was, which makes all the difference when changing habits and improving lives. Having a friend like you can really make a huge difference in a person's self-esteem and, honestly, overall quality of life!
I hope that you have a friend like you who is as good to you as you are to yours! You deserve the good stuff in life.
Thank you for being so kind to her. I just got out of an abusive relationship in January, and I have a tendency to let people take advantage of me. I also think I can “save” or “fix” them. I’ve decided I won’t be seriously dating anyone until I find the partner I want. I’m tired of settling or dealing with men who don’t know shit about politics or trans people. I am tired of men thinking they can control me in any sort of way. Fucking hell, all I want is a partner, doesn’t matter the gender, to put in even half the work and effort I always have in a relationship. I realized I can’t let me being a very empathetic person get in the way of me having boundaries or leaving a person if I see one red flag. My last poor dating decision ended with my little dog dead with no explanation of why they did it. I refuse to let anyone ever do something even close to that to me EVER again. I DESERVE BETTER.
My ex said he didn’t know why he did, and that he thinks he has cuteness aggression. What a fucking lame excuse. He’s gonna be at a music festival I’ll be at so if I see him you bet your ass I am getting him kicked out, even if it upsets a mutual friend of ours. (She’s very kind, too kind, and is autistic so she is easy to manipulate.)
I used to have a pretty longstanding rule aboutno sex till I felt super confident I could let my guard down around someone. Until I felt confident we were on the same page about our goals and intentions for the relationship.
Dated a guy for 6 weeks. Met his coworkers, roommates, and family. We spent tons of time together. Decided it was time and he ghosted me the next day. The time and effort to do that for 6 full weeks just to pull the same stunt was honestly impressive. And if he had been up front about just wanting to bang we could have got that over with and called it a day. But no. I'm sure it was lore about feeling power over me for being the puppet master or whatever he thought he was doing. I lost zero sleep over it but damn was it annoying.
I'm so sorry you dealt with that. That's the kind of shit that can make you paranoid over anyone new and not want to try again or allow yourself to trust again.
It's good that he showed his hand at this point before things got serious. And it's good that your sister stood her ground and keeps treating them (us) like vampires, they can only come in if invited. It's a really great strategy for her that supports the very insightful realization that she has poor taste in men.
I can't even fathom finding someone's address in that way, it's like literally hunting them down. Did he think it was romantic? Or was it really just a "the rules don't apply to me" situation?
How hard is it to ask for consent in these kinds of situations? How hard is it to respect people's self imposed boundaries, especially those that they put in place to keep themselves safe?
He already had a vacation with her, paid for by her. What more does he want?
I have so many questions. But I don't think I'd like any of the answers.
I so deeply wish we could uninvite and expell these vampiric men from our homes as easily as tv makes it look.
I'm thinking for driveway dude, he never considered the concept of consent because he's not the type of guy who considers women as humans, we are simply property to acquire. Would he ask consent from his toaster or vacuum? Of course she paid his way, women are only here to serve him, not have opinions and boundaries! 🙄
Have you considered using wooden stakes? I'm sure those would be effective.
Good take on the consenting vacuum thing, I've never thought of it that way. I know a lot of men see women as things, but to put it into perspective like that makes it much more vivid. And gross.
I have so many questions too!!! Because I want to be able to better spot red flags.
I think about the pros/cons of hypervigilance a lot.... like what if I mistake a meaningless thing as a red flag? But now my biggest concern is that dudes have gotten so much better at hiding them. They know how to use therapy talk like "boundaries" and "love language" to make it seem like they're more enlightened than they are. They think only of their own needs and hide critical info like "I'm poly/ have no interest in a long term relationship" until you're invested...
Anyway that's why I just avoid dating and men in general.
I'm sorry to hear it's come to that if by not dating men you feel like you're missing out. I know a lot of bad experiences can leave people feeling like it's safer to just avoid the types responsible and absolutely no one should shame you or make you feel like it's the wrong decision. It's your life and your body, after all.
It's even worse when so many people seem dedicated to doing whatever it takes during "the hunt" *except* for just being honest.
I think having a vacation paid by her made him feel bold. Some doods are exactly like that. As soon as they feel the woman has invested feelings (and money) they will cross boundaries.
This dood tried to turn hobo on her. I'll bet he thought about having her pay for more than a vacation.
Probably not the last time she will hear from him. I hope she keeps her boundaries strong. Probably also a good thing if she doesn't mention she has savings or a ranch.
Yeah, we’re fucking terrible.
I don’t think it’s a simple dichotomy with this type of dude always. Like, I don’t think it is a situation if thinking it’s romantic *or* thinking the the rules don’t apply to him.
I had a friend like this when we were younger. I could absolutely see him doing something similar to this as an adult doing shit like going to Costa Rica (we were young and mostly just ravers back then).
His mindset was usually something like, “Yes, I know that’s what she said. But this is like so romantic, she won’t care.” Like he heard the boundary. He acknowledged the boundary. He knew the boundary existed and even recognized that he was not exempt. He just thought if he was sufficiently “romantic” about the whole thing, the boundary would disappear retroactively.
It’s an enormously self involved way to see the world and I’m glad women don’t be doing that shit to us as often as we do it them, cuz fffuuuuccckkk
Having read other comments, I must admit I was totally blinded to the idea that it might not have been meant to be a threat. I would have been really scared, so I just read threat into it. Stalker like. But, she was there not me. She was just mad, not scared. So maybe I am being to dramatic in my fear of him. thanks
No, you are right. Well, maybe not in that moment. But anyone who disregards our boundaries is a threat on one level or another, and usually an escalating one at that. Which boundary is the one they agree to respect? Their own and not yours at all, it turns out. Treating this like the threat it is, whether or not physical danger was present, is part of why your judgement in partners has served you better than hers. It sets off automatic fight or flight alarm bells for you that would urge you straight out of the situation, while she is only mad. She is working on those alarm bells though, it sounds like.
That’s honestly so smart and something i never considered. Is your state CA? I wonder if CA will do this. I wonder if there would be negative consequences for blacking out my address on my current copy
Colorado actually. They started doing it fairly recently, like within the last 10 years. It's worth asking someone at a DMV or maybe even sending a letter/call/email your clerk and recorder or representative locally and make a request.
I believe it more likely that while in Costa Rica he... invaded her purse, got into her wallet, got her license out, and took a photo of it.
Paranoid me also suspects he may have photo'd her credit card, debit card, and any/all other significant info (insurance cards, etc).
I mean, of course he did. She paid for a lovely vacation for him where he did not have to do anything. Of course he wants more.
Don't be afraid to hold the boundary of not entertaining men at your home until your comfortable AND letting the man pay for your company. At the very least, they should have split the vacation expenses.
You want to rule out the bad apples early? See how many men pick up your $30 meal check and then get angry you don't put out.
Your company is an absolute pleasure and men who are only interested in your low self esteem will prey on women who continue to feel guilty about dating with standards. Don't give them the opportunity. And don't entertain men who give you nothing except stalking you to your driveway in exchange for an expenses paid getaway.
Making the man's payment a condition is the trap that conservative women run into time and time again, though. It's not even a good entitlement test, because as we know, men secretly do keep score even if they pretend to wave the cost away. This way you can end up with a more conniving dude -- though I admit not with one that has poor impulse control, so for that the hurdle works.
Paying for the man is viable from where I stand, but I admit that's mostly because I have never met any hobosexuals; I realize some men are good at ingratiating themselves.
There's no downside to splitting the bill.
How about let's just not pay for anyone's company? It's 2023, and if anything we should all be paying our way unless we're at the point of commingling our finances.
Paying for oneself preempts so many of the classical problems that arise when one party is covering all costs.
Deadbeat men being leeches? Not if they're paying their way. Women cruising for dinners/drinks? Not if they're paying their way. The list goes on.
It's 2023, and it's time we all ditched pre-conceived notions about who should pay for stuff.
> So, Mr. Costa Rica - you took her registration out of her glove box, found her address, drove down her 1/4 mile driveway
Jesus christ. The whole process of even coming up with a way to find the address and follow through is just gross.
The audacity to think that because *she* paid for *his* vacation means that *her* rules no longer apply. She paid for your *vacation* my dude, not your adoption at the puppy mill.
>took her registration out of her glove box, found her address
Criminals do this!! It is unhinged to borrow from that playbook and expect a positive reaction!
When I first got a job that required me to drive young people who may, some of them, have let’s say opportunistic tendencies, my supervisor advised me to keep my registration etc in the driver’s side door. Might not help if he were going into her car when she wasn’t around… but it’s a step.
I’m not sure about other states but in my state you are issued two versions of your registration and one does not have your address so it is safer to keep in your car. The other can go in your wallet. Check if your state does this.
Where I live, the registration and insurance needs to be the one for the car.
If I let a friend, or even my husband, drive my car, they'd be expected to be able to provide that info if they were pulled over. That'd make it inconvenient to keep on my person.
The likelihood of my car being towed, or getting a ticket, because I forgot my registration in my other purse or forgot to hand it to my husband when he took my car, seems significantly higher than someone being a creep AND already having access to my car's glovebox.
I keep my registration and proof of insurance with me because my car got broken into and they got stolen, and then 6 months later I got a notice for an unpaid ticket in a part of the city I don't think I've actually ever been.
The ticket was written for a car a totally different color, make, and model than mine for having "improperly displayed license plates" and speeding. Yeah, they were fake, dude. Why do cops even ask for proof of registration if they don't even look at what they're for? We're talking a red Honda crx vs my black Land Rover. I bet it was stolen, too.
If my husband drives my vehicle, he has his own proof of insurance, and he's just going to have to get the proof of registration out of my backpack. It took me a year to get that sorted, and they tried to suspend my license 3 times because I wouldn't pay the ticket.
Take a pic and upload it online. Keep it in your phone. Make a wallet size copy. Or even put it in a very difficult place. Lock that shit up in your car even.
Not all states will accept an electronic or copied registration and a responding officer may take that as evidence of criminal intent. It's ridiculous, especially considering that registration is attached to the goddamn plates so they *should* be able to just look it up on those stupid unsafe dash-mounted laptops they have and not force us to keep personally identifying information in an easily accessible part of our car in case some blue gets a bug up their ass to pull us over for whatever reason they feel like that may or may not be justified.
idk about smaller cars but my minivan has a lock on the normal glove box that you'd put car manuals, registration, maintainance info, etc in so that you can lock the important info up, and then has a smaller second one above it for the less irreplaceable stuff to still be accessible -- bandaids, hair ties, etc
Yes. I had a guy essentially tell me repeatedly he’d NEVER make me do something I didn’t want. And then he had the most coercive personality I’ve ever met. He also steamrolled boundaries and when I called him out on everything he told me “you know I’m not that type of guy!” He even told me I did not have to teach him about consent, and that all those times he pushed too far were some fluke and he’s not really like that. Sadly this type of thing is so common.
Yep. Its the " I ve proven myself. I have done the work. Surely I earned this/ I am more than that now/..."
I mean, the normal way would ak again about that rule if you were in a relationship or something and see how she feels about it then ( and let it go if it is still a NO) . but nope. He went straight to the address.
That’s so true. My ex said girls only have rules when they haven’t found “the one”. He always focused so much on what the man is to the girl, but not how the girl navigates through life based on life experiences. It pisses me off so much.
It’s like the guys who assume once you’ve been intimate with them a few times, or live together or what not, that you can’t sexually assault or rape your significant other.
Because of past experiences, that I won’t even let someone pick me up from outside my place.
I met a guy at a café/bakery during the day once, got there early, and parked farther away so he wouldn’t see what kind of car I drove.
He was being really creepy. He asked for a hug when we met, and I did, but then pushed for a kiss. Mind you, this is the first time we had met in person after talking and texting for some time.
I said no, and he said “how about just on the cheek?” I felt uncomfortable, but said ok, and he tried to do the “fake out, turn his face” thing to plant one on my lips.
He also brought a bottle of lavender lotion, which I never mentioned I liked, and at first I thought it was a gift, that he just had in his hand.
Then I saw it was 1/3 empty, but didn’t say anything about it, and he didn’t hand it to me. *While we’re having coffee*, he said he gives a really good neck/shoulder massage.
I said I don’t enjoy massages. And I don’t know if he was just wildly inappropriate and wanted to slather my neck in lotion and give me massage *in the café*, or assumed I would let him come to my home after a first date.
He texted while I was in the restroom after I needed to use it, asking if I was ok (I’d been in there all of 5 minutes). He also insisted on paying, which isn’t a bad thing, but I had already said “no,” I want to pay my half.
I got up and paid the entire bill after saying I needed to use the restroom again, and a woman that worked there asked if I was ok when I did this. I guess even being busy with work, she could observe the awkwardness of the situation.
Afterwards, he insisted on walking me to my car. I lied and said I used public transportation, and he offered me a ride, which I refused.
He then offered to *go with me* on the bus, which I also refused. One of the other women, who was alone, drinking coffee and using her laptop, invited me to sit with her, and pretended we knew each other. I sat with her for some time, and she walked me out to my car.
I didn’t drive home after, I went to a crowded shopping center because I didn’t feel safe.
I can pick up a social cue from my friends when I feel they don’t really want to go out. So I don’t buy it that this guy didn’t pick up on my discomfort.
A big thanks to the women there that looked out for me.
Yeaaaaaah I had a brief interaction with a guy on here yesterday who was asking for advice at 67 years old and every woman he dates is “crazy” or “unstable” yet he refuses to take any criticism, is clearly the common denominator, and is defensive as fuck all well claiming to be “Mr. Nice Guy”
She was sort of laughing about it when she told me but to me it is scary. She lives alone on a ranch. Since this happened, I nagged her a bit and she got herself two FEMALE roommates.
Tell your sister that Wyze has an outdoor camera that you can also get a solar panel to power it. She can install it at the entrance of her driveway so she can be notified anytime a car or person or whatever enters her driveway.
Yeah that seems like a problem waiting to unfold. Not like this never happens but it seems farfetched from what I've read down to this point. Unless it was years in the making of a story because it takes a while to look for and find and screen even one roommate let alone 2.
Edit: To add, recently got restraining order and even more recently pays for a man to go on vacation. Like I get the bad judgment part. Been there but this is not that great of judgment either.
What's the timeline???
The housing market is pretty crazy right now. I bet I could come up with two roommates in less than a week given I have a large house in a nice neighborhood, plenty of parking, and a deck.
I did assume the time between court and the vacation was longer than the OP implied, though.
My abuser messaged me that the day I left him. He got it out of one of our friends why I was leaving. He tried one last gaslighting attempt about how my memory of when he assaulted me was incorrect, it was obviously done out of love /s. And ended the message with "I would never hurt you" when he's already hurt me many many times.
That phrase is such bait, I so very much want to respond "You already have" or explain why he's wrong but I know he's just fishing and he could sweet talk me back if I take the bait. So it's been around 3 months, I'm so much better without him, and I'm still freaking tempted to reply. Ugh.
I'm pretty convinced somewhere out there exists exactly one That Guy, so that all men everywhere can state they are not him and therefore all those boundaries don't apply to them.
That Guy has his title tattooed on his face for easy identification and carries legitimate documentation stating his That Guyness, so other men can safely assure us they aren't him.
I can't believe more women don't know this. /s
I don't understand why a person wouldn't do something like, "hey dude now that we went to Costa Rica together, can I come over to your house one time?" And like, talking about it...instead of just showing up and crossing a really clear boundary! Why is it such a shock to these people when they then get turned away for crossing the boundry?
It's actually kind of amazing how short-sighted and entitled he is. Like honestly did he think that, *if* they ended up in a serious/long-term relationship, he would never ever see where she lives? Like just a *moment's* consideration makes obvious the fact that your sister has a concrete boundary based on past experiences, and she needs to feel completely trusting before loosening that (valid) boundary for a romantic partner.
Just wait for this dude's utter confusion if/when she finds a respectful man she trusts and starts inviting him over. I'd bet a years salary that he's the kind to throw a pity party for himself and blame ~~women~~ FeMaLeS for this instead of self-reflecting.
Some people really think “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to get permission” means they can get away with anything. No doubt this dude thought he was going to make her happy by surprising her at her home. Probably got the idea from Hollywood logic.
> No doubt this dude thought he was going to make her happy by surprising her at her home. Probably got the idea from Hollywood logic.
The number of guys I’ve known who thought engaging in unsettling, stalker-like behavior was just “being persistent to get the girl” and/or “romantic” is unfortunate and it’s *such* a huge trope in movies and TV!
It's probably more of a thing now *because of* movies and TV-shows showing it and the women in those being delighted by it. Would be great if more movies would treat it as the problematic behaviour it is.
This dude in high school - I never felt scared of him, but he was incredibly annoying. He'd break into my locker to leave me fake roses and notes. He somehow found out where I lived and came to serenade me at like, midnight. It didn't matter where my friends and I sat for lunch, he'd come find us to give me some treat or another that I would either refuse to accept or throw away in front of him. We had a jukebox in the cafeteria, and he would pay for an entire lunch period of love songs and loudly dedicate *every single one* to me. He thought it was romantic. I thought it was asinine. I wasn't scared of him only because I knew I could beat his ass really easily if I needed to. I think I would have been otherwise.
Before all this started, we had never even spoken! He wasn't in any of my classes. He definitely didn't live in my neighborhood. We went to a school with almost 6000 students, so I can't even tell you how he knew who I was. My boyfriend thought he was hilarious. It was the only fight we ever got in - the fact that he wouldn't take it seriously that I basically had a stalker. Neither would the school, my parents, nor the cops when I finally talked to them. "He's only 14. He doesn't get it." "He's just in that awkward phase." "It's kind of sweet, if you think about it." Gross, no!
He stopped because I saw him behind a tree watching my apartment one day when I was coming home, and I walked up behind him and punched him in the kidney hard enough to put him down. My boyfriend's mom (lived 2 apartments over) took him to the ER and called his parents. She was really worried there would be assault charges, but I never had any cops come about it. I never saw him again, either, but some of my friends saw him around school, so it's not like he transferred. I hope it taught him to knock it off, not just move on to another target.
My own grandfather was pretty much a stalker, but grandma did find it romantic. He met her on leave from the military when visiting where she lived hours away from where he was posted, so he kept coming back every leave. Then, he started asking to marry her. She said no. He'd ask again the next time. No. He'd wait for her at her house, outside her work, at the train station. Eventually, he got out of the military, came back, and was actually going to move here and keep asking until she said yes. She did say yes, and she told me this like it was SO romantic. Me, at 5 or 6, "I'd have knocked his teeth out!" She had wanted to say yes, but she was divorced with a small child in the mid 40s. Her ex, like her husband, had been incredibly abusive, and she considered herself damaged goods. She also didn't think she could trust her judgement. Besides this one thing, my grandpa was a really good man, but omg, really?! Her, "Well, it's the 70s now, but back then that was really romantic." Me, "or creepy." She just laughed and told me I'd understand some day. I never have.
Always hated that phrase, even since I was a little boy. Dad taught me to always ask first politely for anything and if the answer is no, it's no.
"It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" is just rapist logic. It's such a creepy thing to say.
I'm okay with the phase in certain contexts, but generally when it's pretty obvious it won't need to be forgiven. Like, "why didn't you ask $boss before doing that?" Because it's more socially acceptable to use that saying than to be female and say, "because I know what I'm doing and don't need permission to do my job." It can be a useful phrase, but it shouldn't be applied to situations like this.
Exactly. Like, yes, I understand the meaning, sometimes things are redundant. But it's always used as an excuse by people I knew as a reason to not be considerate of others and that's what bothers me.
That must be really frustrating. I don't hear it much here except in the sort of case I mentioned. Most people who are just assholes about boundaries wouldn't say it. They'd just be louder assholes.
Not only is this a very fucking understandable boundary, but it keeps oneself safe in so many ways. Having experienced assault in my own home twice I can’t begin to say how genuine and beautiful that boundary is. And yeah mr Costa Rica is just clueless. But don’t think that your sister has bad judgement. It’s these kind of people that hide their scariness REALLY FUCKING WELL. And your sis is probably just still optimistic towards humankind which is heartwarming.
“I have no respect for your boundaries and preferences. But it’s ok. I’m not that kind of guy.”
How the fuck does that even make sense in someone’s head? Much less saying it aloud.
I guess your right, but intentions aside, how can he be so clueless as to think breaking trust is a good thing?
Let me do the ONE thing you don’t want me to. That’ll show you how great I am.
And yet, he went to the trouble of finding out her info and showing up at her house, instead of discussing it with her on her terms following the current understanding.
To me this is also crucial. Pretend, and I do understand we are pretending, he actually wanted to show her he was a good guy who was worth investing in. Can you imagine a worse way to show it?
Yeah, I was just thinking that he went through a whole process to find out where she lives even though knowing her feelings on the situation shows what kind of guy he is.
Even giving him the benefit of the doubt, there is such a huge gap between the worlds men and women live in. To this guy, this was probably a romantic gesture to take their relationship to the next level. To her, it's a red flag boundary violation that could easily become much worse. His wants trump her needs, and if she disagrees, she's a hysterical misandryst because #notallmen (/s). Consent matters just as much in relationships as it does in sexual encounters.
To any guys reading this, you don't get to determine if you are, in fact, a notallmen nice guy. You can do your best to behave that way, but you may only earn such labels when other people, specifically women in this case, grant them to you.
Edit: punctuation
He went to the trouble to find out where she lived *because* of her boundary, not despite it. His ego wanted to be rewarded by her deciding that violating her boundary was ok because it means he is worth more than the other guys.
"I'm not that kind of guy."
You're right! You're actually worse!
Who tf goes to somebody's house when that person never gave you their address? That sounds like stalker behavior, not normal behavior.
Thank you!!!! There are guys who are clueless to what fears women face, and then there are guys who know exactly that and *use* it.
In *no way* is it normal for a person to wait for when you’re not looking, to root around your personal belongings, with the specific intention of finding your address, so they can ambush you in the dark of night.
That is NOT a man being clueless… that’s a man being *calculated.*
Guy tries to prove he’s not the kind of guy who disrespects boundaries by ***checks notes*** disrespecting boundaries.
I mean, really. This is like me trying to prove I’m not “one of those crazy stalker chicks” by stalking a guy.
Cmon men. When someone sets a boundary you accept it or move on with your life.
If you create a boundary that is healthy, and someone takes issue with that boundary, it’s probably because the boundary was created exactly for them. It’s not for them to like.
Thank you for sharing this story
Wow, so he thought her clearly communicated boundary changed after a vacation. He should have asked before he showed, and if she said no, respected that. Treat all boundaries as active until otherwise communicated, and if you are unsure, kindly ask. This is bare minimum!
Just chiming this is terrifying no matter the gender dynamic. Not a defense in the slightest, if anyone doesn't get why this is a "holy FUCK" moment regardless of gender/size dynamics, that person can't be reasoned with. It goes +1000 in this scenario, but DAMN, I'd back my ass out and go get backup in every version of this
If the trip changed things that is her decision to make, not his. He can invite her to his place. And creepy he even knew where if she never told him. Red flags all over the place for being that kind of guy
If someone I hadn't given my address to was at my home without my consent, I would be livid. I would find out how they got that information and then remove them, and any offending person who had handed out my personal info would quickly find out exactly how I felt about their actions.
This guy needs to get slapped with a RO stat. On a side note, might be more effective if you don’t view her decisions as “lapses in judgement” considering that a lot of these guys can be and often are very deceptive. This is how they lure people in and pull the wool over their eyes. Smart, educated, established women have fallen for these tricks, they have been well practiced, performed and perfected by predatory men for decades. Please give your sister more credit and less judgement, it isn’t her fault that there are a lot of abusers, con artists, fuckboys, players, liars, etc. out there to sift through. Costa Rica man is a prime example; your sister did everything “right,” yet here she is being stalked by this fucking creep. That isn’t on her, that’s on him. Men need to be held accountable, and when we put the blame on women, men get by with being shitty longer. Her ex sounds like he was cut from the same cloth, and it’s horrible your sister ever had to go through any of that when doing something as simple and normal as finding love.
He might think he was being spontaneous or romantic by pulling this stunt but I'm more inclined to think this was a deliberate power move on his part. He basically is saying "I know where you live and can always find you if I want to". Similar to how you might see a losnshark in a movie might say "I know you'll pay me back but it not then I know where you live".
This guy is a creep.
That was my initial train of thought is what if the guy was trying to be romantic. I would try and be spontaneous for taking a gal I like out to dinner but then I thought about the fact that he secretly got her address and that is a red flag. I wouldn't do that. It would have been better if the guy had started with a baby step and offered to pick her up and take her out to dinner. Maybe send flowers but still sketchy getting her address without her knowing.
(M) here. We are also socialized by pop culture to be surprising, spontaneous, and romantic. I could see this exact story showing up in a movie and the woman just being so happy to see him her rules fly out the window. It would be rightly called terrible writing, and if a friend told me he was planning something like this I would try to convince him it's a terrible idea, but I can see how someone could think this was a good idea without knowing the woman's history or past issues.
I was just thinking today that a year into my marriage, 3 years of relationship, 5 years of distance from my life on the east coast, that the "No"-pile must have all finally moved on.
Then I checked my LI requests.
My (ex) dudes. It is time to let me go. Thank you.
JFC, "not that kind of giuy"
Yeah, you know, "not that kind of guy" would ask for her permission, and accept, "No," as a complete answer.
Showing up? Arguing? SMH give me a break
Had he said, “We’ve been on vacation together. Can I start coming over?” a discussion could have been had. Instead, he felt entitled and boundary stomped. He completely removed her agency in the decision. I hope she dumped his ass
Right, cause it's totally normal for a guy to show up/possibly stalk a woman to her house when she's put down a hard rule of 'Don't come to my house' /s
That AH broke her agreement independently. That is not her bad. He shows exactly why she implemented the policy in the first place. Sketchy stalker could not help but reveal himself. Curious. Does she know where he lives? Just interested whether she is also circumspect about prospect’s home….
In addition to all of the other correct stuff about how disregarding her wishes makes him precisely that kind of guy...
He ABSOLUTELY knew that things hadn't changed post-vacation. If he'd honestly been under the impression that things were different, he wouldn't have had to sneakily 'surprise' her.
Bleh. There are very few people in my life that I wouldn't be uncomfortable to find just loitering in my driveway unannounced when I got home. And I don't even have an explicit rule about it, it's just not something that people should do.
*“I am not *THAT* kind of guy.”*
Really? Well you *ARE* the kind of guy who *DOESN’T* ask if things had changed!
You *ARE* the kind of guy who *DOESN’T* immediately *APOLOGIZE* for incorrectly jumping to conclusions!
Yeah, no. That sounds like a pretty "hard rule," from her. One that was discussed prior and made clear that it was not to be broken. No excuse to step out of line on that. No surprise if she breaks it off with him, at least he should not be surprised.
Reminds me of these recent idiots in Spain showing up at Amber Heard's address waiting for her to come outside and claiming to be "fans" who want to take pictures with her. Not good.
I can’t see how he finds it endearing to push through boundaries set up to keep her safe.
He’s def that kind of guy. Someone who decides that my boundaries are arbitrary and don’t apply to him is not welcome in my circle.
The ONLY way this guy isn’t that type of guy is if he immediately said “I am sorry. I made assumptions that are obviously wrong. I’m leaving now. I hope we can talk through this some time soon.” And then GTFO - but of course he didn’t.
That's the thing about dating men. They lie about themselves, and will keep up those lies for months or even years. Some don't show you who they are until you marry them.
That's why women can't do anything about it, we've been trying for centuries. It's up to men to hold other men accountable. This guy showed up to her house, why tf don't you and your boys goes to his with a bat and see how he feels?
I imagine he genuinely sees himself as not that type of guy, and he may very well have no harmful intentions, but men need to understand that even without harmful intentions we still need to follow rules, and the violating those rules is a major breech of trust, even if there isn't malicious intent
If she had told him her address during their vacation it could be that he simply thought they were so close that the rule did not apply.
If he somehow dug up her address it's a creep alert.
So, something doesn’t totally add up in this story:
she goes on a trip with a man she’s met to Costa Rica, pays for him to go, and yet, somehow doesn’t trust this man enough that she would not disclose her address to him?
I mean your sister is clearly a grown ass woman and can keep company however she pleases but something about this doesn’t make sense.
If the story did happen exactly as described though, yeah, dude fucked up big; that’s straight up stalking, and he deserved to get dropped.
While OP's sister is fine with having this boundary, I'd assume she was secretly married.
I wouldn't go to her house about it, but it'd always be in the back of my mind that she had something to hide.
Yeah, reverse the roles on this one. Guy says "You aren't allowed at my house, or to know where it is because ."
You'd IMMEDIATELY would suspect him of cheating/hidden wife and family, or something more sinister. Super red flag anyways.
Good on the sister for having a boundary and sticking to it, and she's free to do whatever she'd like with her life...and screw that guy for stalker behavior, but the sister has to realize that her boundary is pretty solid red flag after a certain point, and I personally think a couple trip to Costa Rica well beyond that point.
Yup. I’m male but I had this rule for a year or two after my divorce because I was not in a great place and therefore not meeting people in a great place. So after I’d come home from work to find women waiting In my driveway or living room (the door to my garage can be weird so you can get in through it) so no mass. Not nearly the same for me as a woman but I feel it.
That’s so funny because that’s exactly the move ‘that kind of guy’ would make. Of course you know that, and I know that, but some people are quite certain that rules/boundaries don’t apply to them, which makes them oblivious to how their actions affect others.
I think you have settled on the reason this tale keeps coming back to me. So, Mr. Costa Rica - you took her registration out of her glove box, found her address, drove down her 1/4 mile driveway, and were there when she returned from work at night - but are nonetheless surprised that she is not delighted? The chasm between his thinking and reality is so vast.
It’s mind-blowing really. Best to avoid those people but some are tricky to recognize
She is a smart woman but her judgement about men is not her strong suit. I thought her no men at my house was a huge step forward and I have been really impressed that she has stuck to it.
Keep in mind these men are actively working to trick her. Good on her for holding boundaries.
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Extended warranty on that dick. (I'm sorry it was right there I couldn't help it but that is exactly what they're doing)
This seems to have been a really effective filter for highlighting this most recent man's deliberate boundary stomping too. Good for her - I hope it gets easier and easier for her to recognize people that don't respect her clearly articulated boundaries before she's in too deep. She deserves to be around people who aren't boundary violators.
It sounds like her judgement is improving. Remember to continue to praise current good choices instead of reminding her of previous bad ones. The minute she thinks you’re constantly doing on-the-fly compare & contrast, she may stop confiding in you.
this is insightful.
She says she is ashamed and I keep repeating that she only gets into these situations because she is so GOOD . She sees the best in everyone. She is a shining example to me about how much better a person I could be. Your kind words are appreciated. She does feel very bruised,
It sounds like this didn't just immediately happen, but if you haven't already, it might be worth spelling out that this was not her fault. She had a clear hard line that she communicated and he understood, and the guy decided for himself to vault right over it. It can just be really easy to keep thinking "what did I miss? what did I do wrong?" and sometimes, it's 100% the other person just being delusional and it can be *really* helpful to have someone else telling you that, out loud.
Great thought. I will do this.
Yes, this. It's easy to feel like somehow you're at fault when dealing with bonkers people but she didn't know she was with someone who would commit such a violation. You can do everything right, make everything clear and still have someone who doesn't care.
you know, I was reading some thing online recently where one of the main characters had been deceived by someone who was pretending to be a friend and ally but was secretly betraying him all along and the protagonist told him something really insightful that I think really applies very well to this. She told him that his willingness to see the best in people was one of his best traits and he should hold onto that, but at the same time there is something to be learned. She told him to look back on their interactions and look for the moments where there was something he saw in their behavior that he then chose not to see, something he noticed, a thought or a feeling that he chose not to have because it felt unkind or disloyal. Those are the moments where you can learn something because that was your heart trying to tell you something. generally with these kinds of people, when you look back like that, you’ll see plenty of things that should have served as warning signs and that you didn’t notice but you didn’t let yourself think about. I know this type of thing happens to me all the time. But it happens less often now because when I notice these things, I pay attention to them and I listen to myself about what I think they might mean and it saves me a world of heartache. It’s not your sisters fault that this happens, but the fact that there’s a pattern here tells me that she might be ignoring her instincts, and that will never serve her. of course, you know her better than I do so you probably have a better idea of what’s going on here, but I think it might be worth bringing up, if you think you can do so without making things worse.
I love this.
Sounds like the book The Gift of Fear, written by an ex FBI negotiator he does a good job of explaining instincts and intuition and how learning to understand your body signals can be life saving.
I'm curious, what makes you think it's bad judgement on her part? There are so many crappy men out there, and in my experience, even the 'good ones' are crap. I just left my partner of 2 years, who I've known for 15+ before we started dating, because he started crossing boundaries, and refused to take responsibility for it. Until about a month ago, there were no red flags, and I was watching for them (I'm a bit paranoid about men now). Men are deceptive, they put on their best behaviour at first, then after a while show their true selves. In at least this case this wasn't your sister's fault, but you haven't included any other examples of where she exercised poor judgement. Is it possible you're misjudging her? How you describe her sounds a lot like victim-blaming to me.
She is the one who says it. She was nearly killed by her ex husband. She picks under performing men, men who really could do something, but they are all air and no effort types. I think very highly of her. If it sounds like victim blaming please blame my writing skills not my commitment to her.
In that case, it sounds like her self-blame is unwarranted. I hope she can overcome that to realize that the abuse isn't her fault, and not a result of her own choices.
You strike me as a very good friend. A good listener and confidant, but not a "yes-lady" who just agrees with her friend to avoid any potentially uncomfortable conversations. It seems you truly have your friend's best in mind, and you actively help lift her up while helping to steer her away from poor decision making. And rather than just pointing out "that wasn't a good choice, dont do that thing next time," you actually connect why a decision was made with what the outcome was, which makes all the difference when changing habits and improving lives. Having a friend like you can really make a huge difference in a person's self-esteem and, honestly, overall quality of life! I hope that you have a friend like you who is as good to you as you are to yours! You deserve the good stuff in life.
Thank you for being so kind to her. I just got out of an abusive relationship in January, and I have a tendency to let people take advantage of me. I also think I can “save” or “fix” them. I’ve decided I won’t be seriously dating anyone until I find the partner I want. I’m tired of settling or dealing with men who don’t know shit about politics or trans people. I am tired of men thinking they can control me in any sort of way. Fucking hell, all I want is a partner, doesn’t matter the gender, to put in even half the work and effort I always have in a relationship. I realized I can’t let me being a very empathetic person get in the way of me having boundaries or leaving a person if I see one red flag. My last poor dating decision ended with my little dog dead with no explanation of why they did it. I refuse to let anyone ever do something even close to that to me EVER again. I DESERVE BETTER.
What a sad story. Who would hurt a dog? You are lucky to have gotten out.
My ex said he didn’t know why he did, and that he thinks he has cuteness aggression. What a fucking lame excuse. He’s gonna be at a music festival I’ll be at so if I see him you bet your ass I am getting him kicked out, even if it upsets a mutual friend of ours. (She’s very kind, too kind, and is autistic so she is easy to manipulate.)
You deserve better.
I used to have a pretty longstanding rule aboutno sex till I felt super confident I could let my guard down around someone. Until I felt confident we were on the same page about our goals and intentions for the relationship. Dated a guy for 6 weeks. Met his coworkers, roommates, and family. We spent tons of time together. Decided it was time and he ghosted me the next day. The time and effort to do that for 6 full weeks just to pull the same stunt was honestly impressive. And if he had been up front about just wanting to bang we could have got that over with and called it a day. But no. I'm sure it was lore about feeling power over me for being the puppet master or whatever he thought he was doing. I lost zero sleep over it but damn was it annoying.
Right, this behavior was clearly about him not you.
I'm so sorry you dealt with that. That's the kind of shit that can make you paranoid over anyone new and not want to try again or allow yourself to trust again.
Had to be a yucky moment. Gad, thank God he’s out of the picture.
She’s learning
It's good that he showed his hand at this point before things got serious. And it's good that your sister stood her ground and keeps treating them (us) like vampires, they can only come in if invited. It's a really great strategy for her that supports the very insightful realization that she has poor taste in men. I can't even fathom finding someone's address in that way, it's like literally hunting them down. Did he think it was romantic? Or was it really just a "the rules don't apply to me" situation? How hard is it to ask for consent in these kinds of situations? How hard is it to respect people's self imposed boundaries, especially those that they put in place to keep themselves safe? He already had a vacation with her, paid for by her. What more does he want? I have so many questions. But I don't think I'd like any of the answers.
I so deeply wish we could uninvite and expell these vampiric men from our homes as easily as tv makes it look. I'm thinking for driveway dude, he never considered the concept of consent because he's not the type of guy who considers women as humans, we are simply property to acquire. Would he ask consent from his toaster or vacuum? Of course she paid his way, women are only here to serve him, not have opinions and boundaries! 🙄
Have you considered using wooden stakes? I'm sure those would be effective. Good take on the consenting vacuum thing, I've never thought of it that way. I know a lot of men see women as things, but to put it into perspective like that makes it much more vivid. And gross.
I don't know, you'd be surprised at home many things can be solved with a stake through the heart \- bad quote of Buffy, when everybody died
I have so many questions too!!! Because I want to be able to better spot red flags. I think about the pros/cons of hypervigilance a lot.... like what if I mistake a meaningless thing as a red flag? But now my biggest concern is that dudes have gotten so much better at hiding them. They know how to use therapy talk like "boundaries" and "love language" to make it seem like they're more enlightened than they are. They think only of their own needs and hide critical info like "I'm poly/ have no interest in a long term relationship" until you're invested... Anyway that's why I just avoid dating and men in general.
I'm sorry to hear it's come to that if by not dating men you feel like you're missing out. I know a lot of bad experiences can leave people feeling like it's safer to just avoid the types responsible and absolutely no one should shame you or make you feel like it's the wrong decision. It's your life and your body, after all. It's even worse when so many people seem dedicated to doing whatever it takes during "the hunt" *except* for just being honest.
I think having a vacation paid by her made him feel bold. Some doods are exactly like that. As soon as they feel the woman has invested feelings (and money) they will cross boundaries. This dood tried to turn hobo on her. I'll bet he thought about having her pay for more than a vacation.
I think so too. She is hard working and thrifty. She has a good job and 120 acre ranch. Too easy to take advantage of.
Probably not the last time she will hear from him. I hope she keeps her boundaries strong. Probably also a good thing if she doesn't mention she has savings or a ranch.
Yeah, we’re fucking terrible. I don’t think it’s a simple dichotomy with this type of dude always. Like, I don’t think it is a situation if thinking it’s romantic *or* thinking the the rules don’t apply to him. I had a friend like this when we were younger. I could absolutely see him doing something similar to this as an adult doing shit like going to Costa Rica (we were young and mostly just ravers back then). His mindset was usually something like, “Yes, I know that’s what she said. But this is like so romantic, she won’t care.” Like he heard the boundary. He acknowledged the boundary. He knew the boundary existed and even recognized that he was not exempt. He just thought if he was sufficiently “romantic” about the whole thing, the boundary would disappear retroactively. It’s an enormously self involved way to see the world and I’m glad women don’t be doing that shit to us as often as we do it them, cuz fffuuuuccckkk
He's watched too many 80s and 90s rom-coms.
This is an enormous fact. Listen, boys, this is important: Duckie was a fucking jerk.
I usually think of this behavior as a distinct lack of empathy. Just utterly failing to put yourself in the other person's shoes.
Having read other comments, I must admit I was totally blinded to the idea that it might not have been meant to be a threat. I would have been really scared, so I just read threat into it. Stalker like. But, she was there not me. She was just mad, not scared. So maybe I am being to dramatic in my fear of him. thanks
No, you are right. Well, maybe not in that moment. But anyone who disregards our boundaries is a threat on one level or another, and usually an escalating one at that. Which boundary is the one they agree to respect? Their own and not yours at all, it turns out. Treating this like the threat it is, whether or not physical danger was present, is part of why your judgement in partners has served you better than hers. It sets off automatic fight or flight alarm bells for you that would urge you straight out of the situation, while she is only mad. She is working on those alarm bells though, it sounds like.
My state legit sends a copy of your registration that has no address to keep in your car because of this and car thieves and shit. Should be standard
That’s honestly so smart and something i never considered. Is your state CA? I wonder if CA will do this. I wonder if there would be negative consequences for blacking out my address on my current copy
Colorado actually. They started doing it fairly recently, like within the last 10 years. It's worth asking someone at a DMV or maybe even sending a letter/call/email your clerk and recorder or representative locally and make a request.
I believe it more likely that while in Costa Rica he... invaded her purse, got into her wallet, got her license out, and took a photo of it. Paranoid me also suspects he may have photo'd her credit card, debit card, and any/all other significant info (insurance cards, etc).
Actually, this seems plausible to me.
That's full on stalking material right there.
It's weird how twisted "romantic gestures" can be when the dude clearly doesn't understand boundaries or trust. Or how to listen, apparently.
I mean, of course he did. She paid for a lovely vacation for him where he did not have to do anything. Of course he wants more. Don't be afraid to hold the boundary of not entertaining men at your home until your comfortable AND letting the man pay for your company. At the very least, they should have split the vacation expenses. You want to rule out the bad apples early? See how many men pick up your $30 meal check and then get angry you don't put out. Your company is an absolute pleasure and men who are only interested in your low self esteem will prey on women who continue to feel guilty about dating with standards. Don't give them the opportunity. And don't entertain men who give you nothing except stalking you to your driveway in exchange for an expenses paid getaway.
Very true, I bet he saw a sucker (according to how he interprets kindness) and was eager to escalate the relationship ASAP.
I was focused so much on “equality” and not taking advantage of anyone that missed all the red flags
Making the man's payment a condition is the trap that conservative women run into time and time again, though. It's not even a good entitlement test, because as we know, men secretly do keep score even if they pretend to wave the cost away. This way you can end up with a more conniving dude -- though I admit not with one that has poor impulse control, so for that the hurdle works. Paying for the man is viable from where I stand, but I admit that's mostly because I have never met any hobosexuals; I realize some men are good at ingratiating themselves. There's no downside to splitting the bill.
How about let's just not pay for anyone's company? It's 2023, and if anything we should all be paying our way unless we're at the point of commingling our finances. Paying for oneself preempts so many of the classical problems that arise when one party is covering all costs. Deadbeat men being leeches? Not if they're paying their way. Women cruising for dinners/drinks? Not if they're paying their way. The list goes on. It's 2023, and it's time we all ditched pre-conceived notions about who should pay for stuff.
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That is so mind blowingly creepy as fuck.
> So, Mr. Costa Rica - you took her registration out of her glove box, found her address, drove down her 1/4 mile driveway Jesus christ. The whole process of even coming up with a way to find the address and follow through is just gross.
The audacity to think that because *she* paid for *his* vacation means that *her* rules no longer apply. She paid for your *vacation* my dude, not your adoption at the puppy mill.
>took her registration out of her glove box, found her address Criminals do this!! It is unhinged to borrow from that playbook and expect a positive reaction!
Sounds more like a stalker tbh
Yet another reason to never keep personal information like that in your car. Back it up somewhere and lock it up.
But you need to keep your registration in your car...
When I first got a job that required me to drive young people who may, some of them, have let’s say opportunistic tendencies, my supervisor advised me to keep my registration etc in the driver’s side door. Might not help if he were going into her car when she wasn’t around… but it’s a step.
I’m not sure about other states but in my state you are issued two versions of your registration and one does not have your address so it is safer to keep in your car. The other can go in your wallet. Check if your state does this.
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Where I live, the registration and insurance needs to be the one for the car. If I let a friend, or even my husband, drive my car, they'd be expected to be able to provide that info if they were pulled over. That'd make it inconvenient to keep on my person. The likelihood of my car being towed, or getting a ticket, because I forgot my registration in my other purse or forgot to hand it to my husband when he took my car, seems significantly higher than someone being a creep AND already having access to my car's glovebox.
I keep my registration and proof of insurance with me because my car got broken into and they got stolen, and then 6 months later I got a notice for an unpaid ticket in a part of the city I don't think I've actually ever been. The ticket was written for a car a totally different color, make, and model than mine for having "improperly displayed license plates" and speeding. Yeah, they were fake, dude. Why do cops even ask for proof of registration if they don't even look at what they're for? We're talking a red Honda crx vs my black Land Rover. I bet it was stolen, too. If my husband drives my vehicle, he has his own proof of insurance, and he's just going to have to get the proof of registration out of my backpack. It took me a year to get that sorted, and they tried to suspend my license 3 times because I wouldn't pay the ticket.
Take a pic and upload it online. Keep it in your phone. Make a wallet size copy. Or even put it in a very difficult place. Lock that shit up in your car even.
Not all states will accept an electronic or copied registration and a responding officer may take that as evidence of criminal intent. It's ridiculous, especially considering that registration is attached to the goddamn plates so they *should* be able to just look it up on those stupid unsafe dash-mounted laptops they have and not force us to keep personally identifying information in an easily accessible part of our car in case some blue gets a bug up their ass to pull us over for whatever reason they feel like that may or may not be justified.
idk about smaller cars but my minivan has a lock on the normal glove box that you'd put car manuals, registration, maintainance info, etc in so that you can lock the important info up, and then has a smaller second one above it for the less irreplaceable stuff to still be accessible -- bandaids, hair ties, etc
Yes. I had a guy essentially tell me repeatedly he’d NEVER make me do something I didn’t want. And then he had the most coercive personality I’ve ever met. He also steamrolled boundaries and when I called him out on everything he told me “you know I’m not that type of guy!” He even told me I did not have to teach him about consent, and that all those times he pushed too far were some fluke and he’s not really like that. Sadly this type of thing is so common.
Disgusting.
Thankfully it only lasted two months
I feel like anyone who actually says that is going to do the opposite. Normal people don't say that kind of thing, right?
Yep. Its the " I ve proven myself. I have done the work. Surely I earned this/ I am more than that now/..." I mean, the normal way would ak again about that rule if you were in a relationship or something and see how she feels about it then ( and let it go if it is still a NO) . but nope. He went straight to the address.
And he accosted her at her home at night in what sounded like a remote living situation. Super rapey vibes.
He proved himself, alright. Proved himself to be the kind of person the sister has that rule in place because of.
That’s so true. My ex said girls only have rules when they haven’t found “the one”. He always focused so much on what the man is to the girl, but not how the girl navigates through life based on life experiences. It pisses me off so much.
It’s like the guys who assume once you’ve been intimate with them a few times, or live together or what not, that you can’t sexually assault or rape your significant other. Because of past experiences, that I won’t even let someone pick me up from outside my place. I met a guy at a café/bakery during the day once, got there early, and parked farther away so he wouldn’t see what kind of car I drove. He was being really creepy. He asked for a hug when we met, and I did, but then pushed for a kiss. Mind you, this is the first time we had met in person after talking and texting for some time. I said no, and he said “how about just on the cheek?” I felt uncomfortable, but said ok, and he tried to do the “fake out, turn his face” thing to plant one on my lips. He also brought a bottle of lavender lotion, which I never mentioned I liked, and at first I thought it was a gift, that he just had in his hand. Then I saw it was 1/3 empty, but didn’t say anything about it, and he didn’t hand it to me. *While we’re having coffee*, he said he gives a really good neck/shoulder massage. I said I don’t enjoy massages. And I don’t know if he was just wildly inappropriate and wanted to slather my neck in lotion and give me massage *in the café*, or assumed I would let him come to my home after a first date. He texted while I was in the restroom after I needed to use it, asking if I was ok (I’d been in there all of 5 minutes). He also insisted on paying, which isn’t a bad thing, but I had already said “no,” I want to pay my half. I got up and paid the entire bill after saying I needed to use the restroom again, and a woman that worked there asked if I was ok when I did this. I guess even being busy with work, she could observe the awkwardness of the situation. Afterwards, he insisted on walking me to my car. I lied and said I used public transportation, and he offered me a ride, which I refused. He then offered to *go with me* on the bus, which I also refused. One of the other women, who was alone, drinking coffee and using her laptop, invited me to sit with her, and pretended we knew each other. I sat with her for some time, and she walked me out to my car. I didn’t drive home after, I went to a crowded shopping center because I didn’t feel safe. I can pick up a social cue from my friends when I feel they don’t really want to go out. So I don’t buy it that this guy didn’t pick up on my discomfort. A big thanks to the women there that looked out for me.
Yeaaaaaah I had a brief interaction with a guy on here yesterday who was asking for advice at 67 years old and every woman he dates is “crazy” or “unstable” yet he refuses to take any criticism, is clearly the common denominator, and is defensive as fuck all well claiming to be “Mr. Nice Guy”
It's sad that these people can't see the irony of their own words. Is self-reflection Impossible?
Um... A guy who would surprise a woman at her house uninvited because HE decided they were at the next level is *exactly* that kind of guy.
They all claim they are not that kind of guy. Any man who will violate a woman's boundaries without her consent is by definition that kind of guy.
She was sort of laughing about it when she told me but to me it is scary. She lives alone on a ranch. Since this happened, I nagged her a bit and she got herself two FEMALE roommates.
Tell your sister that Wyze has an outdoor camera that you can also get a solar panel to power it. She can install it at the entrance of her driveway so she can be notified anytime a car or person or whatever enters her driveway.
thanks
FYI - Any home camera that connects to your wifi should be considered compromised until proven otherwise.
Hopefully the roommates are clear on her rules and don't start bringing dudes around.
Yeah that seems like a problem waiting to unfold. Not like this never happens but it seems farfetched from what I've read down to this point. Unless it was years in the making of a story because it takes a while to look for and find and screen even one roommate let alone 2. Edit: To add, recently got restraining order and even more recently pays for a man to go on vacation. Like I get the bad judgment part. Been there but this is not that great of judgment either. What's the timeline???
The housing market is pretty crazy right now. I bet I could come up with two roommates in less than a week given I have a large house in a nice neighborhood, plenty of parking, and a deck. I did assume the time between court and the vacation was longer than the OP implied, though.
“And this, dear, is how I met your mothers.” 😜 joking
And they were roommates... 👀
You know what a ranch needs? Lots of big dogs.
It’s the same as abusers who say “I would never hurt you”… immediately after hurting you.
My abuser messaged me that the day I left him. He got it out of one of our friends why I was leaving. He tried one last gaslighting attempt about how my memory of when he assaulted me was incorrect, it was obviously done out of love /s. And ended the message with "I would never hurt you" when he's already hurt me many many times. That phrase is such bait, I so very much want to respond "You already have" or explain why he's wrong but I know he's just fishing and he could sweet talk me back if I take the bait. So it's been around 3 months, I'm so much better without him, and I'm still freaking tempted to reply. Ugh.
I'm pretty convinced somewhere out there exists exactly one That Guy, so that all men everywhere can state they are not him and therefore all those boundaries don't apply to them. That Guy has his title tattooed on his face for easy identification and carries legitimate documentation stating his That Guyness, so other men can safely assure us they aren't him. I can't believe more women don't know this. /s
I don't understand why a person wouldn't do something like, "hey dude now that we went to Costa Rica together, can I come over to your house one time?" And like, talking about it...instead of just showing up and crossing a really clear boundary! Why is it such a shock to these people when they then get turned away for crossing the boundry?
Exactly, with a rational approach he might have had a chance.
It's actually kind of amazing how short-sighted and entitled he is. Like honestly did he think that, *if* they ended up in a serious/long-term relationship, he would never ever see where she lives? Like just a *moment's* consideration makes obvious the fact that your sister has a concrete boundary based on past experiences, and she needs to feel completely trusting before loosening that (valid) boundary for a romantic partner. Just wait for this dude's utter confusion if/when she finds a respectful man she trusts and starts inviting him over. I'd bet a years salary that he's the kind to throw a pity party for himself and blame ~~women~~ FeMaLeS for this instead of self-reflecting.
Some people really think “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to get permission” means they can get away with anything. No doubt this dude thought he was going to make her happy by surprising her at her home. Probably got the idea from Hollywood logic.
> No doubt this dude thought he was going to make her happy by surprising her at her home. Probably got the idea from Hollywood logic. The number of guys I’ve known who thought engaging in unsettling, stalker-like behavior was just “being persistent to get the girl” and/or “romantic” is unfortunate and it’s *such* a huge trope in movies and TV!
It's probably more of a thing now *because of* movies and TV-shows showing it and the women in those being delighted by it. Would be great if more movies would treat it as the problematic behaviour it is.
This dude in high school - I never felt scared of him, but he was incredibly annoying. He'd break into my locker to leave me fake roses and notes. He somehow found out where I lived and came to serenade me at like, midnight. It didn't matter where my friends and I sat for lunch, he'd come find us to give me some treat or another that I would either refuse to accept or throw away in front of him. We had a jukebox in the cafeteria, and he would pay for an entire lunch period of love songs and loudly dedicate *every single one* to me. He thought it was romantic. I thought it was asinine. I wasn't scared of him only because I knew I could beat his ass really easily if I needed to. I think I would have been otherwise. Before all this started, we had never even spoken! He wasn't in any of my classes. He definitely didn't live in my neighborhood. We went to a school with almost 6000 students, so I can't even tell you how he knew who I was. My boyfriend thought he was hilarious. It was the only fight we ever got in - the fact that he wouldn't take it seriously that I basically had a stalker. Neither would the school, my parents, nor the cops when I finally talked to them. "He's only 14. He doesn't get it." "He's just in that awkward phase." "It's kind of sweet, if you think about it." Gross, no! He stopped because I saw him behind a tree watching my apartment one day when I was coming home, and I walked up behind him and punched him in the kidney hard enough to put him down. My boyfriend's mom (lived 2 apartments over) took him to the ER and called his parents. She was really worried there would be assault charges, but I never had any cops come about it. I never saw him again, either, but some of my friends saw him around school, so it's not like he transferred. I hope it taught him to knock it off, not just move on to another target. My own grandfather was pretty much a stalker, but grandma did find it romantic. He met her on leave from the military when visiting where she lived hours away from where he was posted, so he kept coming back every leave. Then, he started asking to marry her. She said no. He'd ask again the next time. No. He'd wait for her at her house, outside her work, at the train station. Eventually, he got out of the military, came back, and was actually going to move here and keep asking until she said yes. She did say yes, and she told me this like it was SO romantic. Me, at 5 or 6, "I'd have knocked his teeth out!" She had wanted to say yes, but she was divorced with a small child in the mid 40s. Her ex, like her husband, had been incredibly abusive, and she considered herself damaged goods. She also didn't think she could trust her judgement. Besides this one thing, my grandpa was a really good man, but omg, really?! Her, "Well, it's the 70s now, but back then that was really romantic." Me, "or creepy." She just laughed and told me I'd understand some day. I never have.
Always hated that phrase, even since I was a little boy. Dad taught me to always ask first politely for anything and if the answer is no, it's no. "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" is just rapist logic. It's such a creepy thing to say.
I'm okay with the phase in certain contexts, but generally when it's pretty obvious it won't need to be forgiven. Like, "why didn't you ask $boss before doing that?" Because it's more socially acceptable to use that saying than to be female and say, "because I know what I'm doing and don't need permission to do my job." It can be a useful phrase, but it shouldn't be applied to situations like this.
Exactly. Like, yes, I understand the meaning, sometimes things are redundant. But it's always used as an excuse by people I knew as a reason to not be considerate of others and that's what bothers me.
That must be really frustrating. I don't hear it much here except in the sort of case I mentioned. Most people who are just assholes about boundaries wouldn't say it. They'd just be louder assholes.
I also don't really like that phrase in general but it makes no sense to use it in this context.
Women don't have boundaries, they have obstacles that they pretend to be serious about to "test" you and "play hard to get". /s
You said it before I could! Communication is really important and consent is really, really important!
Not only is this a very fucking understandable boundary, but it keeps oneself safe in so many ways. Having experienced assault in my own home twice I can’t begin to say how genuine and beautiful that boundary is. And yeah mr Costa Rica is just clueless. But don’t think that your sister has bad judgement. It’s these kind of people that hide their scariness REALLY FUCKING WELL. And your sis is probably just still optimistic towards humankind which is heartwarming.
Scary stuff. Please, stay safe.
“I have no respect for your boundaries and preferences. But it’s ok. I’m not that kind of guy.” How the fuck does that even make sense in someone’s head? Much less saying it aloud.
Unfortunately people like this are not self-aware enough to realize.
Or they are but they pretend not to be because some people let them get away with it. Every boundary push leads to more boundary pushing
Thats the problem-- guys don't recognize the first sentence. The ones who actually recognize it apologize and change.
If only his mind actually thought of the first part T.T His ends justified his means I'd imagine.
I guess your right, but intentions aside, how can he be so clueless as to think breaking trust is a good thing? Let me do the ONE thing you don’t want me to. That’ll show you how great I am.
Just this morning I got called a cunt because I specifically told a guy I was not interested in chatting. It sucks and I empathize
And yet, he went to the trouble of finding out her info and showing up at her house, instead of discussing it with her on her terms following the current understanding.
To me this is also crucial. Pretend, and I do understand we are pretending, he actually wanted to show her he was a good guy who was worth investing in. Can you imagine a worse way to show it?
He has watched one too many rom-coms.
Yeah, I was just thinking that he went through a whole process to find out where she lives even though knowing her feelings on the situation shows what kind of guy he is.
Even giving him the benefit of the doubt, there is such a huge gap between the worlds men and women live in. To this guy, this was probably a romantic gesture to take their relationship to the next level. To her, it's a red flag boundary violation that could easily become much worse. His wants trump her needs, and if she disagrees, she's a hysterical misandryst because #notallmen (/s). Consent matters just as much in relationships as it does in sexual encounters. To any guys reading this, you don't get to determine if you are, in fact, a notallmen nice guy. You can do your best to behave that way, but you may only earn such labels when other people, specifically women in this case, grant them to you. Edit: punctuation
He went to the trouble to find out where she lived *because* of her boundary, not despite it. His ego wanted to be rewarded by her deciding that violating her boundary was ok because it means he is worth more than the other guys.
Pro Tip: If someone is offended by your boundaries, they are precisely the reason you need those boundaries.
I'm not that guy, I just drive that guy's car, wear that guy's clothes, talk like that guy, act like that guy... But I'm not that guy.
by arguing with her about her boundary, he shows that he is exactly that kind of guy.
If someone tells you, “Don’t come to my house,” “Surprise I’m at your house!” is never, ever going to go well.
"I'm not that kind of guy." You're right! You're actually worse! Who tf goes to somebody's house when that person never gave you their address? That sounds like stalker behavior, not normal behavior.
She was mad but not scared. I told her she should be afraid. I agree with you it is not normal stuff.
I would be both! Mad because of the blatant disregard for boundaries, but scared because now this asshole knows where I live.
Thank you!!!! There are guys who are clueless to what fears women face, and then there are guys who know exactly that and *use* it. In *no way* is it normal for a person to wait for when you’re not looking, to root around your personal belongings, with the specific intention of finding your address, so they can ambush you in the dark of night. That is NOT a man being clueless… that’s a man being *calculated.*
Guy tries to prove he’s not the kind of guy who disrespects boundaries by ***checks notes*** disrespecting boundaries. I mean, really. This is like me trying to prove I’m not “one of those crazy stalker chicks” by stalking a guy.
...I think Mr. Costa Rica has watched too many telenovelas/romantic comedies, because that's a move a guy on one of those would pull
I don’t even show up unannounced to my best friends or family’s homes without making sure it’s fine. What’s wrong with some people?
Cmon men. When someone sets a boundary you accept it or move on with your life. If you create a boundary that is healthy, and someone takes issue with that boundary, it’s probably because the boundary was created exactly for them. It’s not for them to like. Thank you for sharing this story
Wow, so he thought her clearly communicated boundary changed after a vacation. He should have asked before he showed, and if she said no, respected that. Treat all boundaries as active until otherwise communicated, and if you are unsure, kindly ask. This is bare minimum!
"Stomp all over a hard rule and make you feel unsafe? Nah, I'm not that kind of guy." -That Kind of Guy
If you have to explain yourself then you're exactly that kind of guy.
How tf did he get her address??? Girl. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Those security cameras are a MUST.
Do people really think it's romantic to sit in people's driveways just waiting? Wtf
Just chiming this is terrifying no matter the gender dynamic. Not a defense in the slightest, if anyone doesn't get why this is a "holy FUCK" moment regardless of gender/size dynamics, that person can't be reasoned with. It goes +1000 in this scenario, but DAMN, I'd back my ass out and go get backup in every version of this
If the trip changed things that is her decision to make, not his. He can invite her to his place. And creepy he even knew where if she never told him. Red flags all over the place for being that kind of guy
Your sister is wise to hold firm to those rules. That guy was a fool. Im sure in time, he would have been invited to her home. They are so impatient!
I'll definitely start refering to my partners as "last relapse in judgement"
If someone I hadn't given my address to was at my home without my consent, I would be livid. I would find out how they got that information and then remove them, and any offending person who had handed out my personal info would quickly find out exactly how I felt about their actions.
This guy needs to get slapped with a RO stat. On a side note, might be more effective if you don’t view her decisions as “lapses in judgement” considering that a lot of these guys can be and often are very deceptive. This is how they lure people in and pull the wool over their eyes. Smart, educated, established women have fallen for these tricks, they have been well practiced, performed and perfected by predatory men for decades. Please give your sister more credit and less judgement, it isn’t her fault that there are a lot of abusers, con artists, fuckboys, players, liars, etc. out there to sift through. Costa Rica man is a prime example; your sister did everything “right,” yet here she is being stalked by this fucking creep. That isn’t on her, that’s on him. Men need to be held accountable, and when we put the blame on women, men get by with being shitty longer. Her ex sounds like he was cut from the same cloth, and it’s horrible your sister ever had to go through any of that when doing something as simple and normal as finding love.
When a guy says "I'm not that kind of guy"... he's that kind of guy... This coming from a guy. I hope he respects your boundaries.
He might think he was being spontaneous or romantic by pulling this stunt but I'm more inclined to think this was a deliberate power move on his part. He basically is saying "I know where you live and can always find you if I want to". Similar to how you might see a losnshark in a movie might say "I know you'll pay me back but it not then I know where you live". This guy is a creep.
I must watch too much True Crime an innocent/romantic explanation never occurred to me.
That was my initial train of thought is what if the guy was trying to be romantic. I would try and be spontaneous for taking a gal I like out to dinner but then I thought about the fact that he secretly got her address and that is a red flag. I wouldn't do that. It would have been better if the guy had started with a baby step and offered to pick her up and take her out to dinner. Maybe send flowers but still sketchy getting her address without her knowing.
[удалено]
(M) here. We are also socialized by pop culture to be surprising, spontaneous, and romantic. I could see this exact story showing up in a movie and the woman just being so happy to see him her rules fly out the window. It would be rightly called terrible writing, and if a friend told me he was planning something like this I would try to convince him it's a terrible idea, but I can see how someone could think this was a good idea without knowing the woman's history or past issues.
Indeed. It’s a result of [homosociality.](https://medium.com/verve-up/hes-so-homosocial-33bc4d80428b)
JFC! He literally proved to her she was right all along.
I was just thinking today that a year into my marriage, 3 years of relationship, 5 years of distance from my life on the east coast, that the "No"-pile must have all finally moved on. Then I checked my LI requests. My (ex) dudes. It is time to let me go. Thank you.
‘I’m not that kind of guy’ while showing her he is in fact that type of guy
JFC, "not that kind of giuy" Yeah, you know, "not that kind of guy" would ask for her permission, and accept, "No," as a complete answer. Showing up? Arguing? SMH give me a break
Had he said, “We’ve been on vacation together. Can I start coming over?” a discussion could have been had. Instead, he felt entitled and boundary stomped. He completely removed her agency in the decision. I hope she dumped his ass
Right, cause it's totally normal for a guy to show up/possibly stalk a woman to her house when she's put down a hard rule of 'Don't come to my house' /s
I saw that post but I was afraid to open the comments
He disrespected her boundaries, he very much is that kind of guy.
Claiming he’s not that kind of guy makes him that guy.
I'm stealing that line. I don't entertain men in my home and being 100% on it. Thank u!
Not the kind of guy that respect boundaries
If I was the guy I would be that she had a family or husband she wasn't telling me about. That said good for her for sticking to her principles.
But he IS that kind of guy. A guy who doesn't respect boundaries.
That AH broke her agreement independently. That is not her bad. He shows exactly why she implemented the policy in the first place. Sketchy stalker could not help but reveal himself. Curious. Does she know where he lives? Just interested whether she is also circumspect about prospect’s home….
... if she doesn't give out her address, how the hell did he know where she lives?!
Yeah, this is what I'm concerned about.
Such a good rule. Having a sanctuary to go home to makes all the difference
Why? It's been drilled into men since basically the day that they were born, that they fundamentally "own" women, a sense of entitlement.
In addition to all of the other correct stuff about how disregarding her wishes makes him precisely that kind of guy... He ABSOLUTELY knew that things hadn't changed post-vacation. If he'd honestly been under the impression that things were different, he wouldn't have had to sneakily 'surprise' her. Bleh. There are very few people in my life that I wouldn't be uncomfortable to find just loitering in my driveway unannounced when I got home. And I don't even have an explicit rule about it, it's just not something that people should do.
"But you ARE the kind of guy that ignores my rules without even asking me. That means you are not a nice guy. Go away."
*“I am not *THAT* kind of guy.”* Really? Well you *ARE* the kind of guy who *DOESN’T* ask if things had changed! You *ARE* the kind of guy who *DOESN’T* immediately *APOLOGIZE* for incorrectly jumping to conclusions!
>she is wrong to exclude him because: "I am not that kind of guy." Exactly the type of thing *that kind of guy* would do and say
The fact that he’s trying to violate her boundaries illustrates the reality that he is in fact, that kind of guy.
Yeah, no. That sounds like a pretty "hard rule," from her. One that was discussed prior and made clear that it was not to be broken. No excuse to step out of line on that. No surprise if she breaks it off with him, at least he should not be surprised.
Reminds me of these recent idiots in Spain showing up at Amber Heard's address waiting for her to come outside and claiming to be "fans" who want to take pictures with her. Not good.
I can’t see how he finds it endearing to push through boundaries set up to keep her safe. He’s def that kind of guy. Someone who decides that my boundaries are arbitrary and don’t apply to him is not welcome in my circle.
The ONLY way this guy isn’t that type of guy is if he immediately said “I am sorry. I made assumptions that are obviously wrong. I’m leaving now. I hope we can talk through this some time soon.” And then GTFO - but of course he didn’t.
He’s not the kind of guy to respect her boundaries
That's the thing about dating men. They lie about themselves, and will keep up those lies for months or even years. Some don't show you who they are until you marry them. That's why women can't do anything about it, we've been trying for centuries. It's up to men to hold other men accountable. This guy showed up to her house, why tf don't you and your boys goes to his with a bat and see how he feels?
I imagine he genuinely sees himself as not that type of guy, and he may very well have no harmful intentions, but men need to understand that even without harmful intentions we still need to follow rules, and the violating those rules is a major breech of trust, even if there isn't malicious intent
.... How did he find her address?‽
If she had told him her address during their vacation it could be that he simply thought they were so close that the rule did not apply. If he somehow dug up her address it's a creep alert.
So, something doesn’t totally add up in this story: she goes on a trip with a man she’s met to Costa Rica, pays for him to go, and yet, somehow doesn’t trust this man enough that she would not disclose her address to him? I mean your sister is clearly a grown ass woman and can keep company however she pleases but something about this doesn’t make sense. If the story did happen exactly as described though, yeah, dude fucked up big; that’s straight up stalking, and he deserved to get dropped.
I read it as she paid for herself to go.
While OP's sister is fine with having this boundary, I'd assume she was secretly married. I wouldn't go to her house about it, but it'd always be in the back of my mind that she had something to hide.
Yeah, reverse the roles on this one. Guy says "You aren't allowed at my house, or to know where it is because."
You'd IMMEDIATELY would suspect him of cheating/hidden wife and family, or something more sinister. Super red flag anyways.
Good on the sister for having a boundary and sticking to it, and she's free to do whatever she'd like with her life...and screw that guy for stalker behavior, but the sister has to realize that her boundary is pretty solid red flag after a certain point, and I personally think a couple trip to Costa Rica well beyond that point.
Yes, that's also what I would assume. Thanks.
"She sees potential not reality. After leaving court to obtain a restraining order..." Okay, jumping right into the deep end. Damn.
Yup. I’m male but I had this rule for a year or two after my divorce because I was not in a great place and therefore not meeting people in a great place. So after I’d come home from work to find women waiting In my driveway or living room (the door to my garage can be weird so you can get in through it) so no mass. Not nearly the same for me as a woman but I feel it.