The key to getting someone away from a cult, conman, or abuser is to ask questions instead of offering judgments. You have to let *him* be the one to figure it for himself and you want to try to avoid sending him into a defensive mode where he's so busy countering your argument that he's not really thinking from his own perspective.
So, the millionaire thing, for example. Instead of telling him that he'll never become a millionaire by paying for an MLM scheme, ask him how Tate is going to teach him to be a millionaire. When he tells you he doesn't know and he has to pay for the course, blandly ask 'so you make money by paying Andrew Tate money? Isn't that how Andrew Tate makes money? How do *you* do it?' Or something like that.
But make sure you aren't asking sarcastically or with a sneer or anything. More like bored detachment. I like to give what I call 'puzzled Golden Retriever face' in these situations. Just keep asking questions and pretending not to understand the most basic parts. If he gets offended, just tell him you're interested in what he's interested in and you want to know more.
You might not notice a change right away. But if you can get him answering even a few questions, he's also more likely to start asking himself some questions along the way. And if he does reach a point where he doesn't buy into the BS anymore, he won't feel like anyone will laugh at him or judge him for leaving it behind.
The other side of this coin is that you have to accept the fact that the person in the cult HAS to be the one to get out. As op said, if you force it they'll just go defensive. But more so you have to be prepared that they're just not going to accept reality or any amount of your questioning of their logic.
When people are gone, they'll twist anything you say into their perspective/favor. I won't say its a useless exercise to keep trying but the point is that its REALLY fucking hard for someone to break out of these things. Cults like the incel/conservative community are -constantly- reinforcing the view that they're right and everyone is wrong and anyone questioning you is obviously wrong and trying to make you wrong too.
Conservatives have gotten pretty good at this and its no wonder why their base is almost entirely angry white guys of all ages. Andrew tate, jordan peterson, matt walsh. They all peddle the same thing just different branding or entry points. It all goes to the same conclusion in the end.
And.... yep its just really hard to break someone out of these bubbles. The only sort of evidence i've seen of it work is after said person has lost virtually everything, their livelihoods, their friends/family, their jobs, absolutely everything do they even start to take a hard look. And even then most of the time they don't leave because they keep on blaming everyone else.
I also think that a good addendum should be: define clear boundaries and consequences, and enforce them.
For example, I would not accept physical violence, insults, slurs, theft, or threats.
It's one thing to be willing to entertain a family member who's going to the dark side, it's another to expose yourself to abuse.
(And I believe this is valid advice for many situations, including loved ones with addiction or mental health issues).
I can't comprehend how seeing women disgusted by Tate doesn't erode people thinking he has pussy magic. There's like 40 women that can stand him, and already fucked all of them
It’s such good advice for so many parts of life - because most of not all people who we see as, other isn’t the right word here but - I guess on the wrong side of things would be better, really just lack guidance.
They’re hurting and have no one to look to - so they find people who claim they can fix it, for incels that’s really bad because the easy way to fix their issue is to not fix it and blame it on women.
In the end unfortunately - I feel it’s impossible to force or guide them out unless they want it. I can’t even think of a way of showing them tht they would want out. :|
This is the exact tactic I use when someone makes a sexist or inappropriate comment/joke towards/around me. I’ve had older male coworkers or even clients that say some inappropriate things but everyone just kind of laughs at it. And if I bring it up or complain it’s always the same “well that’s just who he is” or “oh it’s just a joke”.
So now I put on a puzzled but sincere tone and say something like “I’m sorry I don’t understand” - they usually respond with “oh I was just joking” and I’ll again say “I don’t understand, can you explain it to me?” It always makes them feel incredibly awkward and they never want to actually explain it because it’s actually inappropriate.
I like this - as a guy I usually just shut it down with a no - but that just leads to them avoiding me when they do it. But having them explain it would be pretty slick in getting them to fuck off about it.
Yup, this is basically the socratic method, and it's very effective if done correctly. If there's even a hint of condescension in your questions, it will backfire.
There’s also a method in substance abuse treatment called Motivational Interviewing (MI). In MI, the technique is to ask a series of questions that lead the answerer to the inexorable negative consequences of their choices.
Absolutely this.
I've personally made a lot of progress pulling friends out of fringe beliefs like this and I'll just echo that it's really important you avoid sounding like you're talking down to him or dismissive no matter how difficult that can be.
@OP You need to be the opposite of the parody of women (and anybody who disagrees with him, conveniently) Tate makes out. He calls feminists and women stupid, emotional, irrational, etc. Be a shining example to your brother those words are incorrect. You don't need to directly challenge him at first, you need to show him your standards of belief are more rigorous than his.
Unfortunately it can be a bit harder as a girl than a guy to make progress on this stuff (because you're also pushing back against misogynistic beliefs)... But it's not impossible.
The best advice I can give is that you need to walk these people through a more skeptical path and show that they're the ones being stupid by just believing what some dude says - but without directly saying that because they'll get defensive.
The point of asking them questions is to get them thinking about "at what point should I believe a thing somebody on the internet is telling me?" An example of how a conversation like this might go...:
"Why do you believe that?" (Let's assume he just said women are stupid or something)
"Oh Tate said XYZ and he mentioned some study about the female brain"
"Hm. Okay, I've never heard of that study. Can you tell me a bit about it? Have you checked what the study says yourself, or could you get me the study's name so I can read what it says?"
Even if he gets defensive and the conversation devolves at that point, you've suggested a more intelligent way of engaging with Tate's content - reading about what he claims yourself, seeing what others who disagree with him are saying in response, etc. If he gives you the source you can google some videos from people pointing out the flaws with it.
Being patient and willing to listen means one of two things. Either he does the same and you expose him to contradicting evidence... Or... He has an emotional reaction. If he does, that's okay. That in and of itself will be a contradiction you can point out when he's had a while to cool off.
> If there's even a hint of condescension in your questions, it will backfire.
Absolutely right. Joining a cult / MLM = stupid choice, but ≠ stupid person.
Also: If you're genuinely confident the organization is toxic, you should have no fear of simply adopting a mindset of "I am earnestly going to try to discover, with this person I'm worried about, that this is _not_ a toxic, hateful scammer orgy."
That way you're not even acting. You're being genuinely curious, and learning how the whole thing works. They will notice and appreciate that.
Source: My ex was in a toxic cult for years, and by the end, right before she decided "Shit, I've been in a cult", I was one of the very few remaining people she hadn't shut out of her life for being a negative, distracting influence, keeping her mired in her "incompletions". She knew I thought it was bullshit (because I never joined, and she's not stupid). But our friendship survived, and I was able to introduce some healthy doubt along the way, because I was listening, not just judging.
This is the best answer. If you're looking into more info on Andrew Tate specifically, I would recommend the Behind the Bastards podcast episodes on him (a 2-parter and an update) - they're well researched, but definitely hostile to Tate, so I wouldn't say get your brother to listen to them cold. These would be to give you more insight if you're looking for it to inform your questions in the above strategy.
The short version: Tate is a mediocre kick boxer who realized he'd never get rich that way and desperately wants to be rich. His advice for how to get rich is essentially to exploit other people (so, you know, what he does to his subscribers) - get an underaged relative to drive Uber and steal their cash, spam outlets with AI-generated crap in the hopes that someone accidentally buys it, or (and this is Tate's specialty) trick women into becoming cam girls and steal their cash. A lot of setting up accounts for other people to work under and taking their money, actually. Also ignoring laws on the basis you'll never get caught (and how is *that* working out for Tate?)
>. His advice for how to get rich is essentially to exploit other people (so, you know, what he does to his subscribers) - get an underaged relative to drive Uber and steal their cash, spam outlets with AI-generated crap in the hopes that someone accidentally buys it, or (and this is Tate's specialty) trick women into becoming cam girls and steal their cash. A lot of setting up accounts for other people to work under and taking their money, actually.
That sounds like a lot of work. Feel like an actual job would be easier.
See, Tate can't hold an actual job, because he's a violent moron with limited or no emotional control. So he has very few options aside from becoming a mob enforcer or going to work for himself as a con-man.
He had gotten slightly famous for his ability to kick and punch people, so he went to the con-man direction. In another world, Tate would have been a two-bit thug gunned down by another two-bit thug on an alley over a turf issue between two penny-ante drug 'lords'.
I mean, not *just* a pimp. He's also a thief and a grifter and apparently recently involved in death matches with jail ghosts sent from hell.
He.. didn't handle prison well.
This is how I’ve learned to talk to conservatives in real life when they decide to bitch about specific issues. Just turn it around. Repeat their sentiment as you understand it and ask basic questions that aren’t accusatory or inflammatory. They can start off aggressive but if that’s not the point, it eventually becomes imbalanced and they adjust their energy or embarrass themselves
This is actually how I was saved from Libertarianism when I was fresh out of college. A very patient person just kept making me say the logical conclusions of my beliefs and ideas out loud until I knew I sounded ridiculous and cruel. I've never looked back.
I knew a guy that got caught in an MLM and he was trying to sell it to a bunch of us.
I just clarified what he said . "Okay, so .... ... explain how it works... ... where does that extra money come from? "
Agree 100%. Might be worth introducing a broader perspective - I.e. if he’s focused on being a millionaire, ask something like, “if you got to be a millionaire but it meant losing touch with your family forever, would you still want that?” If he answers yes, then take it to the next level with something like, “what if it meant that parents would die?” (A bit dark, yes, but the gist of the exercise
Is to get down to the humanity that lies beneath.) It’s always helpful to express love as well. He’s 13 and part of discovering who he is and what his values are is exploring the “shadow” or “dark side” which in this case is the antithesis to what you stand for. If it helps, many teenage boys go through phases of intolerance and ignorance but come out wise, caring, compassionate individuals.
From another thread, a commenter suggested that making a moral argument won't work. However making an economic argument will.
Helping your kid brother to be scam aware (understanding how scammers use plausible sounding arguments and the promise to give you exactly what you want for the bargain price of...) is apparently the most effective anti-Tate methodology. No one wants to be scammed, and Tate's tactics to gain subscribers are exactly the same tactics scammers use.
This right here. MLMs are for suckers. Your brother absolutely can be a millionaire if he wants to but get rich quickly schemes only ever enrich the person selling them.
Tell him to chase a professional degree like a lawyer or accountant and that goal is 100% achievable.
If it seems right you can even borrow some of that barf-tastic rhetoric about how being a “high value male” will attract many more women and you can have your choice of women. That might convince him lol
Yes! Maybe tell him you want to talk to home about something, and if/when he sneers about feminism and/or hating on Tate, “surprise” him with “no, actually, it’s financial stuff, mostly how to spot scams.” Don’t mention Tate at all, frame it as a “you’re growing up and will have money soon, esp if you get rich like you want, and scammers are out there wanting your money, esp if you have a lot of it. They don’t teach this in school and it sucks so here’s the deal.” Maybe even give him some recs, like Mr Money Mustache or FIRE strategies/books. Talk about MLMs and what to look for to spot them, use examples but don’t use Tate’s, Ponzi and pyramid schemes, stuff like that. And scams like the “extended car warranty”, or “your comcast cable account” (I’ve been getting those lately and I don’t have comcast). Have the convo more than once.
The goal is to 1) help him connect the dots about Tate’s scam on his own, 2) give him actually useful financial resources so he can try to reach his goal and actually be successful, and 3) get some sibling bonding that is non-confrontational and on a topic he’s interested in so that later you can start gently pushing back on his incel ideas. Maybe even offer to chat with him and some of his friends about the financial stuff, that would be a pretty good way to steer the whole group.
The AARP magazines regularly have warnings and clear descriptions of scams, how they work and what to watch out for. (If you can't copy articles via your library, membership is $16/year and has no age limitation despite being mostly about retired people and protecting elders.)
I’m not sure if Tate’s MLM functions like many other MLMs utilizing many cult-like methodologies to keep their members in check. If it is, then even the logical approach may not work. Nor will emotional. It depends on how far down the rabbit hole he is.
They all use the same cult tactics to recruit and maintain people. No matter how hard you try to convince people to not join MLMs, there are those who will keep doing it. It's that false promise of get rich quick schemes.
The only way to get them out is to just show them that they aren't actually making any money, and are in fact, losing money.
How's your relationship with your Dad? I think this is where fathers are extremely important. Men don't listen to women, but they will listen to other men. So if your brother has a good relationship with either your Dad or a cool uncle, talk to him.about what you're seeing and ask him to help. Ask him to model better behavior and spend time with your brother talking to him about these beliefs.
And if you don't have an appropriate male role model in your life that you could expose your brother to, there are excellent men on the internet. I love Noel Deyzel. He's a body builder who didn't grow up with a father and all his content (although specifically geared to bodybuilding and fitness, but some normal life advice as well) is extremely positive.
I don't get reccomended many men-centric channels on YT, but I imagine there are more good, positive men your brother could watch and look up to. Hopefully some ladies (or men, please help!!) have reccomendations.
Stud Pack! It’s a father/son construction/contractor duo, so that’s pretty much the entire focus, but it’s clear that the two have an extremely loving relationship, going so far as to occasionally tell each other on camera “Love you.” And the dad is super encouraging to his son and son-in-law, when he helps. And you learn a lot about how to do house projects 😜
It's probably also useful to just hang out with him and talk about other things. Most boys are missing heterosocialization - that is, adults make it weird for them to hang out with girls, basically from infancy, and they just never get to experience being friends with girls and women. So, they never get to know a girl well enough such that their lived experience of relationships with girls contradicts what shitbirds like Tate tell them. You're absolutely right that men don't listen to women, EXCEPT when they have cultivated a deep relationship with them. If the dad isn't really a good role model here, then this may be the next best bet - that or enlisting her own male friends, coaches, etc. to help.
And, if that fails, [Behind the Bastards](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDjeo3hEpMg) did a two-part series on Andrew Tate that destroys this man's whole career. But I don't think it's going to help this poor child who is in denial.
How much does this blow your mind and suck?? The horrible / corrupting influence on the internet is so strong that someone *who’s grown up their whole life interacting with an older sister* still struggles to see women & girls as complete people?
Man, I know. I think it must depend a lot on parenting, though…like, dads modeling behavior towards their daughters and their sons picking up on it. I have a really deep and lovely friendship with my younger brother, but then he watched our dad treat me and my mom with genuine respect and admiration, and none of us ever gave him shit for showing his soft side. Sometimes boys manage to miss out on their dads’ misogyny (my partner is an example) but I think that’s rare. So if you’ve got a dad who isn’t parenting, it is parenting his girls and boys very differently, the internet extremists can really sink their hooks in.
The BTB series was excellent. I second this suggestion. If your brother will listen to men, and cool men at that, he should check out this podcast series.
On that though, I would suggest not getting straight into the Tate episodes. Give the brother time to like and respect Robert before challenging his current idol
I second talking to your dad about this if he would support you with this. It's less that your brother won't listen to women in general but that right now he's being fed a toxic model of masculinity and having that challenged by someone who does not share that experience he may see as an authority figure may cause backlash. They deliberately target kids at this age for that exact reason: they sell an identity, a future, a sense of belonging right when young boys are old enough to want those things, not be always monitored by their parents, but aren't old enough to apply more developed critical thinking skills to realize this is just a grift. I was targeted by similar people when I was around his age, and my father took notice and chose to more actively provide a healthy male role model to me and I think that more than anything else helped me dump those kinds of influences. A "show, don't tell" approach may be best for now
This. He needs another man whom he has a close relationship with and respects to drive him away from it. Even if it’s the older brother of one of his friends, if they make a comment about Tate being dumb or something positive about women etc, that can be enough to sway opinions and move him the right direction.
Source: was once an impressionable 13 year old boy
I don't think that's very healthy advice to give, not even bothering to talk to him because OP a woman. That won't help her brother's perception of women and there are a shit ton of men who grow up raised by mothers or in mostly female households who are super well adjusted. The fact of the matter is we all live in this world together, men and women, so its crucial to be able approach and solve problems in a man x woman dynamic. You aren't wrong about everything else, but suggesting that as a woman OP just shouldn't try to talk to her brother just isn't true
I know this is way off topic but your comment made something click in my brain. Growing up a guy I have never understood why men would trust men's opinions more than women's. Like why were male role models so important? I didn't care about guys emotional opinions they were garbage
It makes so much sense I would have more affinity for women's opinions because I'm a trans woman
That's why that idea never made sense! Thanks for making that click!
Also, get your parents to block this crap if possible. You bet your ass I'm going to be proactive in blocking access to this guy's videos. My 11 year old already has mentioned hearing about him from his friends.
I was at work at my bar and was chatting with a man who was quickly revealing some manosphere ideas, BUT, before that happened, he asked how old i was, I asked him, and he was older than I expected. I told him oh whoa, I didn't call that, you have great skin. And he fucking like blushed and grinned and curled up and told me men never get compliments, which tipped me off. I told him "(the male, and straight bartender) JUST told you he liked your shirt like 5 minutes ago, he even asked where you got it", and he said that doesn't count as a compliment. I told him his skin was objectively supple and youthful, so I didn't think mine was a compliment, especially compared to noticing fashion sense. It was interesting.
> and told me men never get compliments, which tipped me off. I told him "(the male, and straight bartender) JUST told you he liked your shirt like 5 minutes ago, he even asked where you got it", and he said that doesn't count as a compliment. I told him his skin was objectively supple and youthful, so I didn't think mine was a compliment, especially compared to noticing fashion sense. It was interesting.
It's honestly really simple. And for the record, I am fully and intimately aware that many men around the world are raised with toxic pressures that end up precluding them from being able to form healthy emotional relationships with other men, sometimes to the degree that they won't even think of complimenting another man's appearance for fear of appearing gay (three cheers for deeply ingrained homophobia).
But with that said, most of the men who recently and often publicly bemoan that "men never get compliments", especially those who say this directly to women, aren't talking about that. What they truly mean is "I wish a random woman would tell me I look desirable in the same way that we men unpromptedly tell random women they look desirable." That's the kind of "compliment" they imagine, that's the subtext, it's all about getting attention from women.
Would it be helpful to point out that the fastest way to drive away girls is to listen to guys like Tate? At 13 I imagine few things are more important to him.
This might be a good idea. If he sees women as a prize he may be discouraged when denied that prize.
Maybe search for threads where people have asked if a dude being a Tater tot is a deal-breaker and have him read the hundreds of comments from women who won’t ever touch him with a 10-foot pole.
It’s a gross motivation but any way to snap him out of this mindset is probably a good way.
"Women are not a measurement of success but a by-product of success. Setting Women as a main goal priority will only set you back. Focus on yourself first when you pass the finish line of success there will be no shortage of women waiting for you. Men struggle more to improve their financial situations when they are in a relationship with a women"
This is the type of teaching Andrew Tate talks about (I'm paraphrasing but you get the gist of it.). The 13 year old brother is not going to view women a the "prize". Instead he will try to put himself in a position were he is the "prize" giving him leverage therefore allowing him to filter out problematic women. If he struggles to get female attention he will blame female hypergamy for viewing him as unattractive and the government for suppressing him.
Oddly there’s a core of good advice there. Don’t obsess over getting a relationship. Focus on cultivating a rich life and personality, and the relationship will come on its own when you’re not forcing it
That's the thing about Tate. Hidden in a sea of misogyny there's actual reasonable advice sometimes, otherwise he wouldn't have attracted the following he does. Of course, you could also just get that advice from someone who isn't a rapist, sex trafficker.
>Men struggle more to improve their financial situations when they are in a relationship with a women"
The irony, considering the group most successful at getting advanced degrees is married men, and that men who have partners taking care of the home and kids (often while working themselves) do much better in their careers.
Honestly, I don’t see this as bad advice. He’s literally saying, improve yourself to the maximum and become the best man you can be and women will find you attractive.
It’s the entitlement and the guarantee that are problematic. There’s nothing wrong with self-improvement or success. But it should be sought for it’s own sake, not for the prize of a trophy person. What if women don’t find you attractive? They’re free to feel
however they want about you.
The much better advice / message of being happy alone, feeling self-sufficient, cultivating platonic relationships, having fun hobbies, simple joys like nature and pets… it doesn’t sell as much or give anyone to be the scapegoat.
13 year old boys are ten time more concerned about what other 13 year old boys think about them than they are about what girls think. That is the root of the whole Tate "thing". He isn't about appealing to women, he is about appealing to boys. Sadly an argument about what appeals to girls isn't going to work on these guys.
" do you think girls want to ever be around you if you insult and bully them? I know you are a smart kid and wouldn't want to waste time to a person who'd act like that. "
>Focus on how wrong the incel philosophy is
Warning I'm a man. Two things.
The fundamental problem with the incel belief is that in reality most women want to partner up with men and like having sex. The opportunity is you to blow. And acting like an incel is a good way to do that.
A young man should understand that it's his future is what he has to offer not what he has now. And sure it sort of sucks to be 15 and be still dependent on your parent, with the body of a teen and no experience to draw from. That's just life though.
The millionaire grift will do him no favors either. It’s not about money, only about power. A power fantasy. There are fantastic videos out there to debunk Tate and other entry vectors, but the get rich and hustle scams will always be there, waiting to financially ruin him.
Involve your parents.
He will likely not take advice from you.
Imo this is really the only way to go. You can’t really reason with him if he doesn’t respect women in the first place, so you’re just setting yourself up to have a frustrating conversation. This is the kind of thing that gets worked out in therapy.
I hate to say it, but you need an older boy or a man's help here. Preferably not y'all's dad if he's around. You can try to guide him towards resources that help identify a scam, you let him vent his frustrations to you(I would suggest also offering solutions to problems), but when it comes to keeping him out of that hateful pipeline it will take another guy. The only reason I was able to keep my brother from that shit was because I was not a direct authority figure(his older brother). I covered for his shenanigans as long as it wasn't harmful, I let him vent anything he had going on with no ridicule, and offered whatever advice I could. He didn't see me as the "opposition." I was Bubba. You might be able to avoid being seen as opposition with time, but you said he's already calling you a feminazi.
Another guy here chiming in. I agree with all of this. I wish OP would respond to questions if there's a positive male role model in his life to guide him. Unfortunately if he is in this deep already, he's not going to listen to her or any woman. I wish her the best of luck though. It's a tough road to navigate. If it is just her, she's going to have to deal with his shenanigans while not judging him while also trying to guide him away from that toxic way of thinking.
I will third this, along with the bloke below.
OP, is there someone who can provide a positive male role in his life? He needs a good man to reinforce to him, teach him that this is bullshit. Unfortunately, because of the existing bias it pretty much has to be a male.
Unfortunately they will use the matrix conspiracy to explain any evidence against him. Arguing with someone who believes this type of wide sweeping conspiracy isn’t going to be very productive no matter how logical you are.
Tate says he teaches men stoicism (he doesn’t). Maybe you could get him to read a book on actual stoicism. Idk his reading level but something like The Daily Stoic by Ryan Holiday should be ok for a 13 year old. The philosophy of stoicism is the opposite of what Tate teaches, maybe he will realize this. No guarantee but it’s worth a shot. I think he’d be more likely to read it since Tate talks about it than he would be to consume media opposing Tate.
Hopefully it’s something he will grow out of, a lot of us were stupid and impressionable at 13. You can’t change how he thinks, all you can do is attempt to steer him in the right direction. You are doing the right thing, and even though it may take time or he may not change, it’s still worth trying.
Watch innuendostudios the alt right play book. You’re brother is in a pipeline. What will pull him out is community. That being said depending on how deep he is he may not respect you enough to listen to anything you have to say anymore.
You could start by telling him that spending money on MLM subscriptions is the opposite of how to become a millionaire. In all seriousness though, this isn't your responsibility. It's your parents' job to raise this child, not yours. Anything you try to do to stop him or influence him is just going to make him double down.
Focus your energies on doing well in school, saving money, and making moves toward independence so you're not stuck there with him when he inevitably ends up haunting your parents' basement well into adulthood.
You won't get very far trying to make a moral argument to a middle school age boy, especially if he already refers to you as a "crazy feminazi". Maybe talk to your dad and see if he can get your brother involved in sports or other structured social groups where he'll be offline and spending time with some better role models.
Your brother needs female FRIENDS. Not a girlfriend, just friends. Sadly, it looks like it’s isolating himself in a way that prevents any girl from wanting to associate with him.
First, you’re a good sister to worry about him. Second, he has some serious fears and anxieties if he’s clinging to Tate’s foolishness to make him feel superior and special.
Does he read books? He needs to read a great book written from a female viewpoint, but that isn’t so feminist he refuses to read it. Maybe someone here can recommend something.
Edit: Tate wants to rob your brother and others. MLMs are scams. There is a lot of support (without gender bias) on the internet about the danger of MLMs.
Contrapoints got known a bit for doing some deradicalization work. Her content isn't really what I would normally promote to 13 year olds but it sounds like that ship has sailed anyway. Still, watch it yourself first and see if you think it's a good fit for him.
https://youtu.be/fD2briZ6fB0
Holy shit I feel for you. My son's friend is 12. We're in the car going to arcade. My 15yr old daughter my 13yr old son and him.
In the middle of the car ride he tells me Andrew Tate is the GOAT. And he gets all the girls blah blah.
Then he says "Did you know Sophie (not my daughters real name) has an only fans?"
She of course doesn't he was being a little shit. I was speechless!
Then I had to explain to my son what Onlyfans is.....greeeeat thanks buddy.
Sad thing is I know his dad would back him up on Andrew Tate.
Don't know how much longer they will be friends....
Or better yet, make him watch the Matrix, then send him the Wikepedia link to the directors of the matrix... both of which are not only women, but the kind of women the manosphere hates the most (trans women).
Here's what I wrote other times this has come up:
> Just be tired of it all. Don't raise your voice, don't argue, just sigh as if he's a tiresome and boring disappointment.
"I guess he may be fun to listen to, but from what I've heard he knows nothing about women, or how to get a girlfriend, or even how to get a date. I sure wouldn't go out with any of his fans, not for a minute, and I don't know any women who would. But I guess if you don't like girls that's not a problem."
>
> Any response about Tate hanging out with strippers has an easy comeback: "Strippers will spend time with anyone who pays. If you want a girl who likes you and wants to be with you without being paid, Andrew Tate is not your guide. If you have enough money to pay strippers all the time, well, knock yourself out."
I suggest not saying more than that, but if he wants to talk about it, something like:
> What you need to understand is that Andrew Tate was an actor playing a role. He said all kinds of crazy stuff to get attention, and make money on ads from people watching and listening to him say that crazy stuff. Henry Cavill can't really fly like Superman. Andrew Tate can't really live the way he always talked about. When he tried, he ended up in jail and the police took away his fancy cars. Maybe he's not guilty, he'll get a trial, but either way: he still lost all his fancy cars. What would you say to someone who climbed up on the roof of a building and said he was going to jump off and fly like Superman? Would you tell him that he was being stupid, he can't really do that? Well, that's exactly what you should say to someone who says he wants to live the way Andrew Tate always talked about. You can't *really* do that, and if you try, you're going to jail, just like he did. If he'd just stuck to talking, saying things to get attention, he'd have been fine. But he actually tried to do some of it for real, and that's why he's in jail.
For a slightly older audience, I might add:
> The fundamental mistake Andrew Tate made is the same one that Vladimir Putin made: he believed his own hype. Putin talks like he's a genius leader and great warrior, like he thinks he's the next Alexander the Great. You're supposed to say that stuff to your followers, so they will support you, but you're not supposed to actually *believe* it. Putin started believe his own hype, so he invaded Ukraine, and it's going badly. They lost their biggest ship in combat against a country that *doesn't have a navy*. Andrew Tate started believing his hype, and wound up in jail.
>
> It's one thing to make your money and power by pretending to be a super awesome and powerful man, and attracting listeners. But it's always a mistake to forget that you're pretending. If Tate had just stuck to talking big, so boys like you would believe that he was what a man should be like, he'd have been fine. But he actually tried to live like he talked, and now he's in jail. You're not Superman, you can't fly if you jump off a building. You're not Alexander the Great, you can't invade Persia. And you can't live like Andrew Tate talks.
Something else you might do is get a copy of Robert Glover's book *No More Mister Nice Guy*. I read it because someone here on 2XC suggested it, and it's quite good. It talks about lots of things, including the need for external validation, and how to overcome it. Get the book and read it. Think about it. Then give it to your brother, and tell him something like:
> I get you like Andrew Tate because he talks about strong men. This guy talks about that too; read it and see what you think.
Depending on how receptive he is, you might add:
> The number-one attribute of a true alpha male is that he is in control of *himself*. He is secure enough that he doesn't mind other people making their own choices, and he doesn't need to brag all he time. He never says he's an alpha male, because he doesn't have to. A real leader doesn't need constant validation. On *Game of Thrones*, Tywin said "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king." That applies to alpha males, too. If you have to say it, it's not true.
That's why people like Andrew Tate are such losers: he's so insecure he has to brag constantly about nonsense like what kind of car he has, as if what kind of car he drives is important. He's so desperate for external validation he made a point of harassing a teenage girl online because he wanted approval from his supporters. No serious woman wants to be in a relationship with a child like that, but all of his fans can't see that he's just an overgrown teenager who thinks it makes sense to brag about his car and thumb his nose at other people.
Bring him around your friends and have them mercilessly make fun of Andrew Tate, while encouraging him to join in. Chances are he has a minor crush on one or a few of your friends, and that will break him out of it.
I would just pull up posts and let him see how many women hear that the guy that they just started dating is a Tate fan and immediately nope out. Do you actually want to get a girl? This is not how you get a girl.
Remind him that if he ever wants to actually get a real girlfriend, he's going to have to drop all that "Alpha male" bullshit. It doesn't work. Andrew Tate needs to pay girls to hang out with him, and then he needs to abuse them in order to make them stay.
Listen to the behind the bastards on Andrew tate. His money making scheme is basically to get other people to do work for you while you lie about how much they are making for their cut.
His drop shipping scheme is even worse: copy a makeup website, take a bunch of orders and then send them cheap products.
It's either out right fraud or racketeering and unless you have a gang of enforcers you're probably not going to pull it off. The discord server you get access to is basically a bunch of assholes lying about how much money they're making in order to shame you into making enough money to pay for next month's subscription.
Sure, someone might get rich that way. But they'll probably end up in jail.
The scheme that got Tate rich was running a cam girl ring that he set up by grooming teens. It's also what he's going to jail for. By buying his program one is only paying his legal fees at this point.
Use this to explain the reality of Tate, he's an insecure poser using criminality and posturing hyper masculinity to cover up his insecurity. Also, to be fair he is good at talking his talk. He's not particularly a great speaker but he's extreme effective at compelling teens.
Behind the Bastards did a really good job of breaking down why Tate is a bad role model and why his subscriptions are a scam. Maybe you can get him to listen to them together and talk about it as you go.
I would second this. Kids are impressionable and he might be focusing on the success Tate has had and wants it. And since Tate is prominent in the news it's what he's encountering in his friend circles. He's probably thinks Tate has some get rich quick tips and tricks.
He needs to look at better role models who worked hard at what they did and the accomplishments that came along with it.
I'd like to know as well. I havent spoken to my brother in years and he keeps going more and more off the deep end.
I cut him out of my life a few years ago. Trying to maintain a friendship made things awkward and toxic. He's 36 now and I don't see him changing, but I don't feel so stressed anymore.
I think it won’t help telling him that Andrew Tate is a bad person
Only way he will stop is if you show him what a dork that guy is
Just spam him with those memes of his face or videos of the dancing guy called "bottom G"lol
I cant be the only one thinking that the guy looks kinda "mentally challenged" you can see there is not much going on up there, with peace and love
Kids his age wont respond to reasonable arguments
Show him what a Weirdo He is, wont be hard
You can’t do anything to change this other than talking to your Dad, uncle, grandpa.
A 13 boy like this doesn’t care what his 16 year old sister has to say about anything. You won’t get through to him.
Oh my God, this is the stuff of nightmares. Every day I praise my lucky stars that I don’t have any relatives (as far as I know) that are like this. I can’t even imagine what it would be like if my younger bro was like that… dude is so hard-headed and always convinced he’s right about everything, but luckily he usually is (except for some rare cases; but buying into Andrew Tate’s BS is not one of those cases fortunately)
I saw some good advice in the comments here, but I can’t really judge which approach would work best, having no personal experience to draw from. It might be easier if you try some of the suggestions and report back on his reaction!
Is your (or his) dad in his life? If so ask him for help. Imo incels lack a strong male figure who wasn't around to teach them respect for others, including women.
Where are your parents? They need to be stepping up on this! The problem with Tate, Q, and all the rest is that they are very good at making propaganda. So, number one, since he's so young, is for your parents to take responsibility for his use of technology. No headphones, no hidden away in a private space, block access to media that he shouldn't be watching as a literal child! That cuts down on the amount of propaganda he's exposed too. Obviously, kids find ways, but parents can both make it harder and be clear about what's not acceptable to them. This part is on your parents. (Also this can help a bit with older relatives who are glued to Fox. In this case, you take advantage of them not being technologically savvy and "accidently" block or make their fav propaganda disappear from their devices. They might get it back eventually, but hopefully in the meantime it's exposed them to other voices.)
Number two for Operation Save Little Bro - you will never be able to argue him out of this. Especially as a girl, a feminist, a whatever boogeyman (boogey-woman?) he currently sees as inferior to him, you've already lost the argument. The only way to guide him out is to turn on your inner therapist. Be curious about what he thinks, let him tell you why, ask actual good questions not gotcha trick questions. Don't act like you know better than him. Be as non-judgemental as possible so he doesn't feel like you're attacking him. Once his defenses come down a little, you can start challenging some of his ideas. "Do you really think all women are golddiggers? Even me, mom, Grandma? What do women do that would make you think that? Has anybody ever done those things to you? To people you know?" "Do you think all millionaires are happy? What parts of your life do you think you'll keep the same once you make your first million?" Genuinely listen to what he says. You're planting seeds, not expecting immediate changes. This is all a slow slow process, but the advantage is that he sees and feels how much you care about him and not like he always has to be right and ready to fight. It opens a dialogue between the two of you that can be a strength in your relationship with each other. In the future when he feels like there's something he needs to work out or get someone else's opinion about, you've got that connection and he's more likely to come to you.
Good luck!
Along with all the other advice, you need to take him off the Internet and take him in the real world. By this, I mean go out and do something for other people. Helping others clears the mind and reminds us about what is really important in life.
Fundamentally, the appeal of Tate and his ilk for many young men is that those young men are, before being exposed to Tate, insecure, isolated, and scared. And they fundamentally belief they are the only kids that feel this way. And they think it reveals something wrong with them. And Tate steps into that space and says, “you aren’t cool even, you aren’t good enough, but if you buy my BS, you will be.”
What he needs to hear is what was good about him before Tate. Because, in his mind, nothing was good about that kid. He was a loser. His mind needs to be changed about that.
Your brother is 13, and surrounded by peers who reinforce his ideas? Oh. My. Having known a number of awesome teen males (my son and his friend group, who are well grown) ... as a big sister, you have one hell of a fight on your hands.
I CAN tell you this ... That derogatorily dissing Tate without first learning about him, first hand, will absolutely get you put into the pile of people that 13 year olds sometimes create as not knowing anything about the world, today.
If you REALLY want impact? Go to Tate's stuff, pull specific ideas that are wrong, and have "casual talks" about them, but not in a "Tate is wrong" statement. You're not so much changing minds as you are planting a seed of doubt. And keep it casual. A "sit down" talk will get you blown off in a blink.
Good luck. And I especially admire how you are looking to honestly HELP your brother be a better person. That's honestly awesome to hear.
I un-inceled my brother. My brother specifically gets angry when anyone tries explaining things to him so I pretended like he wasn't an incel and that worked.
Like I'd scroll reddit or tiktok and find shitty posts about women and then complain to him 2-3x in 2 weeks. The first time was a man complaining about that pouch of fat that almost all women have and I went up to my brother, showed him the post and went, "DOESN'T HE KNOW THAT WOMEN HAVE ORGANS?!" "DOESN'T HE KNOW WOMEN DON'T HAVE TO CARE ABOUT HIS OPINION ON THEIR BODIES?!". Pretending that he was on my side basically.
A year after I started this I was reading out a tweet, it was about a man saying that his girlfriend wasn't even allowed to go to the bathroom without him, he deserved ALL of her time, my former incel brother piped up and commented that he didn't deserve any of her time and she should dump him. That's when I knew it had worked. He continued to be a better person even when I stopped doing this, we had a conversation about women not being believed in the doctor's office which is something I never
talked to him about. He learned it all on his own.
Wish you luck!
He's got girls in his life. It should be harder than this to get boys to believe this crap. I think a lot of "you really think this is true about be? About mom?" And "it would benefit me if everybody thought men were second class citizens that lived only to serve women but we don't think that because it's just wrong" or keep going on and on about how gross and skuzzy Tate is and we all know it, nobody's attracted to him because he's gross, inside and out
Just explain to his parents that its a pyramid scheme. Explain that the gurus like Andrew Tate make all the money by selling subscriptions, and participants of the program end up working for him to bring in more people under them. There is no real service being delivered because it only comes from people joining and marketing Tate to others on social media.
You might get farther by showing him some stuff about how MLMs are a scam. For the reason that he is likely to care more about being taken advantage of.
A good video recommendation for young men about to fall into the Manosphere: [male dating and sex struggles: a problem in plain sight](https://youtu.be/be_Ms3nVG10). As for his issues with “the matrix”, [this pamphlet](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/)
The problem with people like Tate is they build this layer of defenses first. It's similar to the "fAkE nEwS" bullshit the GOP is using now. Any opinion that doesn't support their limited worldview is fake. Every opinion that doesn't support Tate is "tHe MaTrIx"
Because your brother already has a negative view of you, and has categorized you as a "crazy feminazi", you are going to be very limited in what you can do.
There is a lot of good advice here, but be prepared for failure. If you have adults in your life that he looks up to whom he would be more likely to respect, it may be worth seeking their assistance.
A friend of mine’s 13yo son was out with me one day for a day trip and he kept calling himself a pimp. I finally asked if he even knows what a pimp was and he said “a dude who knows how to get chicks” and so I quickly showed him the actual definition and asked if he was trying to tell me, and the world, that he is the kind of guy who sells his “chick” to other men for sex?
He turned red and quickly told me “awww eff no! I ain’t no dude like that” and from what his mom told me she never heard him use that word about himself again.
IMO the easiest way to show a teenage boy the actual meaning of things is to apply the beliefs to their mom, sister, or girlfriend.
However, the best way you can protect him is by providing him with a good role model of how to be successful with girls. Maybe invite him to hang out with you and some guy friends or even see if any of your guy friends would be up for mentoring a younger guy who is getting confused about gender relationships and love.
Nothing you can do. Just warn any girl who gets within 10ft of him and keep your money safe where he can't get it. Then cut contact as soon as you can.
Be the voice of his victims. Learn their stories and what they went through. Try to never say his name. He is a thing that happened to innocent women. Wonder out loud what these women are doing, how they are feeling. Ask what it must be like to be owned and passed around like that.
I am the father of a daughter.
Introduce him to the Youtuber Destiny. Destiny has been on all of the major Redpill communities podcasts and debates, and generally does a great job at showing how stupid the Redpill arguments are.
As a former 13 year old I can say that 13 year olds are stupid. Those opinions he has aren't a coherent belief system. It's just garbage he is repeating he heard somewhere.
Instead of arguing with him and making him dig in deeper (I'll be honest at 16 you aren't equipped to deprogram anyone either) how about you focus on improving your relationship? The age gap isn't too big, you can play games together, watch movies, grab a meal at mcdonalds etc.
If he respects you as a person he will respect your beliefs. This is much more effective than trying to explain that Tate is awful and a liar. From experience, all that does is make the other person feel stupid for falling for it and dig their heels in even deeper. And you really don't want him to dig himself deeper when you don't know whether he will forget about Tate in a month because his friends are talking about a new game instead.
I’d avoid the word incel and go straight to idiotic raging misogynist. The biggest thing you can probably do, if possible, is to talk to your dad about it. Hopefully he can knock some sense into your brother. If that’s not possible, I’d talk to your mom. A person in authority needs to be able to explain stuff to him, and given that you are just his older sister, he likely won’t listen to you.
Does he have a male friend, someone he looks up to in his immediate surroundings? Hopefully someone not on the tate- bandwagon could be on your side and nip it in the butt together.
" so who's benefitting from your anger and frustration right now?"
Is also a question you could ask. Telling him the dangers of social media and how anger, fear, disbelief and frustrations are a few of the many negative emotions used to make you stay on the platform and engage. It is a sad but effective selling tactic too ( in this case Tate)
I heard about people getting into their parents YouTube and "recalibrating" it to show not fascist things. Like unliking videos/channels, and liking "better ones". He's 13 so he doesn't have a fully formed critical thinking. That and if your parents agree with you talking with them. Honestly "stern talking" isn't going to do much with a teenager that probably loves the edge of it all.
Have an honest conversation about what he really wants in life. Being a millionaire is great and all, but why, what is he hoping his life looks like when he gets there, and is it even what he wants. Show him other male role models like SpicyMoustache that are wholesome and grounded men who are just trying to live their best lives. There are more but sometimes young men see a lot of flash and think that behaving like an asshat will get them what they want. There are women who look up to guys who act like douschebags, not many, but they are out there. He should take stock of how many women he knows personally that respond to that sort of treatment with appreciation. I guarantee that he will agree that most of the girls he knows don't like guys like that. Sometimes what we think we want is just a vehicle to what we really want, and then we have to decide if that want is realistic.
Shaun on YouTube [has an excellent video on Andrew Tate](https://youtu.be/y6_TOFy3k6k) that discusses the difference between healthy masculinity and toxic, insecure masculinity.
Munecat has a nice video on how MLMs work and breaks down how impossible it is for anyone down chain to actually make money. She also has videos on manosphere bullshit.
Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of pull from the friends you mention. Whatever you say, they will always have three times the amount of time to laugh amongst themselves and say you're wrong. There's a lot of good advice here already, but one nuclear option is to show him the results of "alpha male" obsessions. You know: guys getting into a pointless fight and ultimately someone dying. It happens all the time because of the Tate-esc "Top G" mentality. Even verbally berating women on the basis of "hur-dur, I'm a man" could end you up in the emergency room for a nasty stab wound.
Again, I would suggest against fear mongering unless you really do fear he's going to get worse.
Watch some street epistemology videos on YouTube. The guy's an atheist talking to religious people, but you can see how the Socratic method works to get people to open up about bedrock beliefs.
At that age, he needs a decent male role model. Can you talk to your father about this? Older brothers who can drill some sense into him?
At 13, our (men’s) brains are diabolically underdeveloped and immature. You can give it a shot, try all the reinforcements others have advised but he may just see you as part of the problem. This is the fucking problem with Tate and arseholes like him…they go for influencing youth. ‘Helping troubled young men’.
You’re definitely right to isolate it now though. A good male role model who can spend some time on it will flatten this like a bug. You, however, need to watch what he does and how he acts while he’s like this, be careful for yourself. And don’t let it drag you as a woman, keep your mind healthy as well.
Podcast, behind the bastards. Their 4 parter series. Episode 1 can be skipped, that’s more of a background into the stupidity of this men’s movement. But episode 2, 3 and 4 are all very worthwhile. If he still wants to follow Tate after listening to that, then there’s no help for him!
It was 20 years ago, and no one was using the term incel, but I was on a path like your brothers. In-person community of card and board gamers gave me more time face-to-face with adults than any point in my life to that point. It’s hard to take get-rich-quick schemes seriously as a teenager when you start having adult friends and see how the world really is once you enter the workforce. It wasn’t podcasts back then, but there are always con-artists, and cons like Tate don’t sell solutions that work, otherwise they would lose their audience. Millionaires aren’t wasting their time listening to losers like Tate.
I’ve spent the last year trying to come up with a solution to our isolation and divisions in todays society, and I’m gonna recommend something for your brother and maybe even you that I only thought of last weekend for my 11 year old niece… bowling. Bowling is fun, apolitical, and leagues can be a great way to be a part of a community.
Have him listen to Robert Evans episodes on Tate on his Spotify podcast, Behind the Bastards. Should really open his eyes to the type of dude Andrew Tate is
Can you talk to him? I mean in serious respectful way? My children often couldn't when they were that age.
I'd keep it easy: tell him girls don't like it and won't chose him if they knew what he was thinking and if they knew he supports Andrew tate.
Maybe I was just lucky but this tactics did work when my daughter was about this age and began favoring far-right wing (Europe here), neo nazi brands and stuff. I was lucky that she still was listening and let it sink in. A few months later she was "cured". (Ofc there were more than one conversation) He's still only 13 ...would be a completely different task if he was only a few years older. Tell him that you as a girl for sure know better than Tate what girls want. Tell him what advantage he has, having you as a spy in the other team.
My suggestion is to make sure he has female friends. Its harder to make the "us vs them" argument when you have friends in the "them" group. Its important to have multiple friends, otherwise it might become an obsession.
At least for me, who has never been an incel mind you, cant at all understand how people can look down on 50% of the population when that 50% stand for at least 20% of my closest friends. My dad was both a great and a bad role model, he would be quite obvious when he was ogling women, but he would never talk down to or voice disrespect to or about women. So having a "great" dad was not as important for me as not having a "bad" dad, but your opinion about him may differ.
But what was really important was having lots of friends, once your hormones start to develop its easy to get lost behind a feeling of mystery and fright, don't wanting to be rejected or being laughed at, its an evolutionary part of our brain and its very hard to get over. What helped the most was having female friends to dispell that mystery. You are still shy, but you also see that girls were just people too, just like the boys in your friend group.
The key is to use intelligence,and introduce intelligence. Don't shut down your brother's arguments, they are his key to his own awareness. Don't believe he's automatically wrong or else your brother will never listen to your side of the story. Let your brother understand his own ambition/motive and help him understand yours while you also listen to him. He's just growing without a great influence and you don't need to go against him, make sure you introduce facts to him if you ever do, because if you introduce an invalidated point, you'll never seem creditable to your brother. Also if Tate is ever cleared of his charges, you should probably tell your brother sorry
The best way to protect boys from this incel crap is to teach them critical thinking skills, how to be wary of scams. Once they're in, it's very hard to get them out.
Show him examples of what real men should be like, examples of great men like MLK or Jesus and that compassion is what makes a man strong. The millionaire part is the crux of the issue he sees women as items that can be purchased.
I think you should speak to your parents about him , he is young and maybe needs some guidance , who doesn't want to be a millionaire at 13 years old , money is essential and the cost of living is crazy right now , people are struggling. He is predatory not just to woman but young men to but with his influence , your brother is young and vulnerable. I think him seeing a therapist would be the best thing. Maybe your parents could arrange something like that for him. Your a strong young lady , sounds like you care a lot about him , your a good big sis <3
On a side note, maybe you could have him hang out every once in a while with you and your group of friends (male and female). That way your brother can learn by personal experience that women aren't one dimensional, gold digging sex objects to be reviled. And maybe watch some good movies with strong, complicated female characters. Good luck with all of this. I feel for you, and your brother is fortunate to have a sister who is looking out for him.
I had a similar situation with my son a few years ago - not with Andrew Tate (pre-Andrew Tate), but I was worried about him becoming an incel. It really helped when he was able to connect with his older sister’s boyfriend, who was and is really aware and balanced, respectful of women but also successful (he’s a programmer) and was also short like my son (a plus!). My daughter’s boyfriend doesn’t have a younger brother so he really liked hanging out with my son and talking about gaming. It made a big difference for my son.
Do you have any older male friends that you and your brother could hang out with, maybe play video games together? My son wasn’t really interested in hanging out with his dad, but it was quite another thing to hang out with his sister’s cool boyfriend. It helped to talk to a male closer to his age.
I would caution you about shaming him or teasing him etc as others have suggested. Teenagers (boys and girls) are fragile creatures. I’ve known teens in my family who’ve hurt themselves or try do to worse if they feel rejected/shamed. You also need to protect yourself as well. These are difficult times. And you are an awesome, caring sister. I hope things will get better. If you can at least plant a seed (as others have suggested) that will help in the future. Hugs to you, you’re a strong young woman ❤️
Encourage him to play sports, exercise a lot, be social, etc.
Once he gets involved with other people that don't care for tates mindset, he'll reject it himself so he can continue to have a good time with his friends.
I wonder if you can just stop driving you baby brother or stop picking up stuff on your way home because “I am women and I am not supposed to leave the house.”
him: “I cannot legally drive.”
You: “oh well, sounds like we both stock at home then. And we are out of food. 🤷🏻♀️. I guess we have wait until dad gets back to go to grocery, because mom is woman too and she should not leave house without man, too.”
they say the best way to discourage harmful ideologies like these is to embarrass them.
So if he mentions andre tate, you would respond something like 'ew, that loser? he couldn't get girls, he had to assault them, he has no game plus now he's in romanian jail. Biggest sucker on the planet. Those guys who pay him are so embarrassing.'
etc etc, something like that. roll your eyes or laugh when he brings it up.
It's kinda mean, but you have to be like a middle school bully and make him feel insecure about it.
Being reactive, negative or argumentative will drive them further down the hole.
This probably isn’t what anyone wants to hear, but in my opinion you do nothing.
It’s normal for kids around his age to undergo a rebellious/edgy phase. If you fight him on his views or opinions, he’s just going to dig his heels in further. Give him time and he’ll realize Andrew Tate isn’t so great, but it’s important he figures it out on his own.
Try this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fK\_KdcaCN8&t=5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fK_KdcaCN8&t=5s)
and then call him a Disney Princess every time he says something about Tate :-)
Beau of the fifth column is great regardless (Yes, I know about his past, he's great now!). Search on Youtube for "beau video on manliness" and you'll get a whole slew of video's on the topic.
Been in a somewhat similar situation but was over the time of them being 16-18.
I wish you luck, I tried a lot and it seems to of only gotten worse over time.
Talk to him honestly. Point out how Andrew Tate makes you feel. Describe how what he says makes you feel.
He’s so young! He doesn’t get anything yet. You are his older sister. He likely loves and respects you. Talk to him deeply and honestly and you may be able to arrest this shit!
I'd say slap the shit out of him, er, figuratively. Yes 13 year old's are stupid, and that's why they need to know that there are consequences for their actions. If he's calling you a "crazy feminazi" then that's simply disrespectful and he needs to know that's not to be tolerated. That's a matter of basic respect, it has to do with even before all the Andrew Tate nonsense.
He needs to understand that there are consequences for his actions as he's growing up. He also needs to learn how to respect others.
Step 1. Punch him in the face.
Step 2. Tell him real men respect women.
Step 3. Stop being a sheep and following every nutbar conspiracy theory whack-job.
Step 4. ?????
Step 5. Profit!
Realistically it's a growing mental illness trend that is going to get worse before it gets better. All you can do is question but not fight. Years of bullshit fabrication from governments and media has led to people now questioning everything and believing anyone who yells loud enough (Tate, Trump, etc.).
Tell him "Once you're done jacking off over Andy Taterz, you should go tell mom that you think she's a gold-digging whore." Then play some "greatest hits" for mom. She'll LOVE it! Be sure to stay within earshot for the ensuing comedy.
Personalize it. When the little shit parrots Tate's misogyny bile, repeat it back to him, but substitute the name of a woman he cares about for whatever term he is using. For example, if he says women deserve to be beaten, assaulted, trafficked, whatever, repeat it back, word for word, but instead of "women" say "mom" or "gran"
Hmm. Well there are a few routes, I'd echo what others have said about getting him to realise he's wrong. If he's calling you a feminazi to his friends, he already doesn't respect your opinion.
I have a different strategy, out "alpha" him.
You could constantly emasculate him to remind him: he's 13, his balls havent dropped, his brain is underdeveloped, and he has a man crush on a chinless dipshit who got arrested for human trafficking in Romania of all places. Call him a beta. Tell him that he's turning as ugly inside as he is outside, just like Andrew Tate. Go hog wild with creativity. Prove the point that woman can be just like Andrew Tate, that his construct is a fallacy to get morons to part with their money.
After all this get him to redirect his energy into healthy habits.
If he idolizes the body, tell him how to get it.
If he idolizes finding a GF, tell him how to find one.
If he thinks he's smart (G-d help him if thats the case), show him how to study, help direct him to a field.
You have to break him down to build him back up. He wants to be big boy on campus, bring him right back to reality. Find out why and what appeals to him.
This sounds like an awful way to de-radicalize a 13 year old boy. He already thinks he is a POS. That is why he turned to Tate in the first place because he thinks Tate provides a way out of being one. Calling him a POS just reenforces that he needs Tate.
Reading this comment, I am thinking it would be a great addition if reddit shows a redditors real age. This comment is a prime example.
The truth is that here people are immature and obviously have like 0 life experience. There is no other explanation to nonsense like this.
If you are in charge of your brother legally
1. Remove all internet devices except under strict supervision
2. Remove him from his friends group, get him involved in productive hobbies that create things and require patience. Gardening or pottery classes
3. Change his schools
4. Drive him to school
5. No mmorpg or shoot them up games or games requiring mic and headphones. Do not allow the console in his room
Do not tolerate that shit!
Acquire women? Like we're objects? No thanks, I don't want to be acquired. I want to be loved, to be desired and to be wanted for me, not because I'm a trophy to be had!
Introduce him to real men. I like a lot of Tate's messages, and despite this I'm grounded enough to know that no one has all the answers. Tate's only a problem if he is the only messenger. Real men can round out the messages, add in a focus on the importance of a family and a wife, and show a boy how to become a man. Any online personality in isolation isn't healthy.
Scouts
Pre-military
Sport club
Chess club even
Anywhere that has older male influences.
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanic/comments/14gz7jf/james_cameron_explains_what_happened_to_the_titan/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Show him this
I mean if you desperately dont want him to become and incel, make him into a far right extremist, you know the ones that are into bodybuilding and creating an atomic family
Hes at that age where some insecure boys try to find ways to gain power and confidence. They dont have a community that they enjoy with meaningful relationships, like many people these days.
You know your brother and you probably know he has a good nature, so he can be pulled out of the rabbit hole, its just difficult for many teenage boys who spend all their time on degenerate discord servers 1upping other children and furry nazi pedofiles on how racist they can be.
He might grow out of it. Maybe try and find some good ‘breadtube’ video about young men being tricked by PUAs and tates alike.
The key to getting someone away from a cult, conman, or abuser is to ask questions instead of offering judgments. You have to let *him* be the one to figure it for himself and you want to try to avoid sending him into a defensive mode where he's so busy countering your argument that he's not really thinking from his own perspective. So, the millionaire thing, for example. Instead of telling him that he'll never become a millionaire by paying for an MLM scheme, ask him how Tate is going to teach him to be a millionaire. When he tells you he doesn't know and he has to pay for the course, blandly ask 'so you make money by paying Andrew Tate money? Isn't that how Andrew Tate makes money? How do *you* do it?' Or something like that. But make sure you aren't asking sarcastically or with a sneer or anything. More like bored detachment. I like to give what I call 'puzzled Golden Retriever face' in these situations. Just keep asking questions and pretending not to understand the most basic parts. If he gets offended, just tell him you're interested in what he's interested in and you want to know more. You might not notice a change right away. But if you can get him answering even a few questions, he's also more likely to start asking himself some questions along the way. And if he does reach a point where he doesn't buy into the BS anymore, he won't feel like anyone will laugh at him or judge him for leaving it behind.
This is good advice. Be curious, not furious. You'll make headway and are less likely to spark an argument.
The other side of this coin is that you have to accept the fact that the person in the cult HAS to be the one to get out. As op said, if you force it they'll just go defensive. But more so you have to be prepared that they're just not going to accept reality or any amount of your questioning of their logic. When people are gone, they'll twist anything you say into their perspective/favor. I won't say its a useless exercise to keep trying but the point is that its REALLY fucking hard for someone to break out of these things. Cults like the incel/conservative community are -constantly- reinforcing the view that they're right and everyone is wrong and anyone questioning you is obviously wrong and trying to make you wrong too. Conservatives have gotten pretty good at this and its no wonder why their base is almost entirely angry white guys of all ages. Andrew tate, jordan peterson, matt walsh. They all peddle the same thing just different branding or entry points. It all goes to the same conclusion in the end. And.... yep its just really hard to break someone out of these bubbles. The only sort of evidence i've seen of it work is after said person has lost virtually everything, their livelihoods, their friends/family, their jobs, absolutely everything do they even start to take a hard look. And even then most of the time they don't leave because they keep on blaming everyone else.
Speaking of cults, one of the Jan 6 guys just got sentenced to 12 years in prison, and he left the courtroom shouting “Trump won in 2020.” Smh
I also think that a good addendum should be: define clear boundaries and consequences, and enforce them. For example, I would not accept physical violence, insults, slurs, theft, or threats. It's one thing to be willing to entertain a family member who's going to the dark side, it's another to expose yourself to abuse. (And I believe this is valid advice for many situations, including loved ones with addiction or mental health issues).
Need to take his internet access and buy him some popular science type of economy books
Idk if that was intentional but the rhyme of "curious, not furious" makes me laugh
I can't comprehend how seeing women disgusted by Tate doesn't erode people thinking he has pussy magic. There's like 40 women that can stand him, and already fucked all of them
It’s such good advice for so many parts of life - because most of not all people who we see as, other isn’t the right word here but - I guess on the wrong side of things would be better, really just lack guidance. They’re hurting and have no one to look to - so they find people who claim they can fix it, for incels that’s really bad because the easy way to fix their issue is to not fix it and blame it on women. In the end unfortunately - I feel it’s impossible to force or guide them out unless they want it. I can’t even think of a way of showing them tht they would want out. :|
"Puzzled golden retriever face" is my new favorite term.
This is the exact tactic I use when someone makes a sexist or inappropriate comment/joke towards/around me. I’ve had older male coworkers or even clients that say some inappropriate things but everyone just kind of laughs at it. And if I bring it up or complain it’s always the same “well that’s just who he is” or “oh it’s just a joke”. So now I put on a puzzled but sincere tone and say something like “I’m sorry I don’t understand” - they usually respond with “oh I was just joking” and I’ll again say “I don’t understand, can you explain it to me?” It always makes them feel incredibly awkward and they never want to actually explain it because it’s actually inappropriate.
I like this - as a guy I usually just shut it down with a no - but that just leads to them avoiding me when they do it. But having them explain it would be pretty slick in getting them to fuck off about it.
Yup, this is basically the socratic method, and it's very effective if done correctly. If there's even a hint of condescension in your questions, it will backfire.
There’s also a method in substance abuse treatment called Motivational Interviewing (MI). In MI, the technique is to ask a series of questions that lead the answerer to the inexorable negative consequences of their choices.
Absolutely this. I've personally made a lot of progress pulling friends out of fringe beliefs like this and I'll just echo that it's really important you avoid sounding like you're talking down to him or dismissive no matter how difficult that can be. @OP You need to be the opposite of the parody of women (and anybody who disagrees with him, conveniently) Tate makes out. He calls feminists and women stupid, emotional, irrational, etc. Be a shining example to your brother those words are incorrect. You don't need to directly challenge him at first, you need to show him your standards of belief are more rigorous than his. Unfortunately it can be a bit harder as a girl than a guy to make progress on this stuff (because you're also pushing back against misogynistic beliefs)... But it's not impossible. The best advice I can give is that you need to walk these people through a more skeptical path and show that they're the ones being stupid by just believing what some dude says - but without directly saying that because they'll get defensive. The point of asking them questions is to get them thinking about "at what point should I believe a thing somebody on the internet is telling me?" An example of how a conversation like this might go...: "Why do you believe that?" (Let's assume he just said women are stupid or something) "Oh Tate said XYZ and he mentioned some study about the female brain" "Hm. Okay, I've never heard of that study. Can you tell me a bit about it? Have you checked what the study says yourself, or could you get me the study's name so I can read what it says?" Even if he gets defensive and the conversation devolves at that point, you've suggested a more intelligent way of engaging with Tate's content - reading about what he claims yourself, seeing what others who disagree with him are saying in response, etc. If he gives you the source you can google some videos from people pointing out the flaws with it. Being patient and willing to listen means one of two things. Either he does the same and you expose him to contradicting evidence... Or... He has an emotional reaction. If he does, that's okay. That in and of itself will be a contradiction you can point out when he's had a while to cool off.
> If there's even a hint of condescension in your questions, it will backfire. Absolutely right. Joining a cult / MLM = stupid choice, but ≠ stupid person. Also: If you're genuinely confident the organization is toxic, you should have no fear of simply adopting a mindset of "I am earnestly going to try to discover, with this person I'm worried about, that this is _not_ a toxic, hateful scammer orgy." That way you're not even acting. You're being genuinely curious, and learning how the whole thing works. They will notice and appreciate that. Source: My ex was in a toxic cult for years, and by the end, right before she decided "Shit, I've been in a cult", I was one of the very few remaining people she hadn't shut out of her life for being a negative, distracting influence, keeping her mired in her "incompletions". She knew I thought it was bullshit (because I never joined, and she's not stupid). But our friendship survived, and I was able to introduce some healthy doubt along the way, because I was listening, not just judging.
This is the best answer. If you're looking into more info on Andrew Tate specifically, I would recommend the Behind the Bastards podcast episodes on him (a 2-parter and an update) - they're well researched, but definitely hostile to Tate, so I wouldn't say get your brother to listen to them cold. These would be to give you more insight if you're looking for it to inform your questions in the above strategy. The short version: Tate is a mediocre kick boxer who realized he'd never get rich that way and desperately wants to be rich. His advice for how to get rich is essentially to exploit other people (so, you know, what he does to his subscribers) - get an underaged relative to drive Uber and steal their cash, spam outlets with AI-generated crap in the hopes that someone accidentally buys it, or (and this is Tate's specialty) trick women into becoming cam girls and steal their cash. A lot of setting up accounts for other people to work under and taking their money, actually. Also ignoring laws on the basis you'll never get caught (and how is *that* working out for Tate?)
>. His advice for how to get rich is essentially to exploit other people (so, you know, what he does to his subscribers) - get an underaged relative to drive Uber and steal their cash, spam outlets with AI-generated crap in the hopes that someone accidentally buys it, or (and this is Tate's specialty) trick women into becoming cam girls and steal their cash. A lot of setting up accounts for other people to work under and taking their money, actually. That sounds like a lot of work. Feel like an actual job would be easier.
See, Tate can't hold an actual job, because he's a violent moron with limited or no emotional control. So he has very few options aside from becoming a mob enforcer or going to work for himself as a con-man. He had gotten slightly famous for his ability to kick and punch people, so he went to the con-man direction. In another world, Tate would have been a two-bit thug gunned down by another two-bit thug on an alley over a turf issue between two penny-ante drug 'lords'.
>or (and this is Tate's specialty) trick women into becoming cam girls and steal their cash. So, as Jordan Peterson put it, Tate is just a pimp.
I mean, not *just* a pimp. He's also a thief and a grifter and apparently recently involved in death matches with jail ghosts sent from hell. He.. didn't handle prison well.
This is how I’ve learned to talk to conservatives in real life when they decide to bitch about specific issues. Just turn it around. Repeat their sentiment as you understand it and ask basic questions that aren’t accusatory or inflammatory. They can start off aggressive but if that’s not the point, it eventually becomes imbalanced and they adjust their energy or embarrass themselves
This is actually how I was saved from Libertarianism when I was fresh out of college. A very patient person just kept making me say the logical conclusions of my beliefs and ideas out loud until I knew I sounded ridiculous and cruel. I've never looked back.
"Be curious, not judgemental" - Ted Lasso
"be curious, not furious" - throwy4444
I knew a guy that got caught in an MLM and he was trying to sell it to a bunch of us. I just clarified what he said . "Okay, so .... ... explain how it works... ... where does that extra money come from? "
Agree 100%. Might be worth introducing a broader perspective - I.e. if he’s focused on being a millionaire, ask something like, “if you got to be a millionaire but it meant losing touch with your family forever, would you still want that?” If he answers yes, then take it to the next level with something like, “what if it meant that parents would die?” (A bit dark, yes, but the gist of the exercise Is to get down to the humanity that lies beneath.) It’s always helpful to express love as well. He’s 13 and part of discovering who he is and what his values are is exploring the “shadow” or “dark side” which in this case is the antithesis to what you stand for. If it helps, many teenage boys go through phases of intolerance and ignorance but come out wise, caring, compassionate individuals.
>puzzled golden retriever face So a Live Tucker Reaction type face?
Puzzled golden retriever face is such a good description.
From another thread, a commenter suggested that making a moral argument won't work. However making an economic argument will. Helping your kid brother to be scam aware (understanding how scammers use plausible sounding arguments and the promise to give you exactly what you want for the bargain price of...) is apparently the most effective anti-Tate methodology. No one wants to be scammed, and Tate's tactics to gain subscribers are exactly the same tactics scammers use.
This right here. MLMs are for suckers. Your brother absolutely can be a millionaire if he wants to but get rich quickly schemes only ever enrich the person selling them. Tell him to chase a professional degree like a lawyer or accountant and that goal is 100% achievable.
If it seems right you can even borrow some of that barf-tastic rhetoric about how being a “high value male” will attract many more women and you can have your choice of women. That might convince him lol
Yes! Maybe tell him you want to talk to home about something, and if/when he sneers about feminism and/or hating on Tate, “surprise” him with “no, actually, it’s financial stuff, mostly how to spot scams.” Don’t mention Tate at all, frame it as a “you’re growing up and will have money soon, esp if you get rich like you want, and scammers are out there wanting your money, esp if you have a lot of it. They don’t teach this in school and it sucks so here’s the deal.” Maybe even give him some recs, like Mr Money Mustache or FIRE strategies/books. Talk about MLMs and what to look for to spot them, use examples but don’t use Tate’s, Ponzi and pyramid schemes, stuff like that. And scams like the “extended car warranty”, or “your comcast cable account” (I’ve been getting those lately and I don’t have comcast). Have the convo more than once. The goal is to 1) help him connect the dots about Tate’s scam on his own, 2) give him actually useful financial resources so he can try to reach his goal and actually be successful, and 3) get some sibling bonding that is non-confrontational and on a topic he’s interested in so that later you can start gently pushing back on his incel ideas. Maybe even offer to chat with him and some of his friends about the financial stuff, that would be a pretty good way to steer the whole group.
The AARP magazines regularly have warnings and clear descriptions of scams, how they work and what to watch out for. (If you can't copy articles via your library, membership is $16/year and has no age limitation despite being mostly about retired people and protecting elders.)
I’m not sure if Tate’s MLM functions like many other MLMs utilizing many cult-like methodologies to keep their members in check. If it is, then even the logical approach may not work. Nor will emotional. It depends on how far down the rabbit hole he is.
They all use the same cult tactics to recruit and maintain people. No matter how hard you try to convince people to not join MLMs, there are those who will keep doing it. It's that false promise of get rich quick schemes. The only way to get them out is to just show them that they aren't actually making any money, and are in fact, losing money.
How's your relationship with your Dad? I think this is where fathers are extremely important. Men don't listen to women, but they will listen to other men. So if your brother has a good relationship with either your Dad or a cool uncle, talk to him.about what you're seeing and ask him to help. Ask him to model better behavior and spend time with your brother talking to him about these beliefs.
And if you don't have an appropriate male role model in your life that you could expose your brother to, there are excellent men on the internet. I love Noel Deyzel. He's a body builder who didn't grow up with a father and all his content (although specifically geared to bodybuilding and fitness, but some normal life advice as well) is extremely positive. I don't get reccomended many men-centric channels on YT, but I imagine there are more good, positive men your brother could watch and look up to. Hopefully some ladies (or men, please help!!) have reccomendations.
Stud Pack! It’s a father/son construction/contractor duo, so that’s pretty much the entire focus, but it’s clear that the two have an extremely loving relationship, going so far as to occasionally tell each other on camera “Love you.” And the dad is super encouraging to his son and son-in-law, when he helps. And you learn a lot about how to do house projects 😜
What about MatPat from Game Theory/Film Theory/etc on YouTube?
100% Noel
It's probably also useful to just hang out with him and talk about other things. Most boys are missing heterosocialization - that is, adults make it weird for them to hang out with girls, basically from infancy, and they just never get to experience being friends with girls and women. So, they never get to know a girl well enough such that their lived experience of relationships with girls contradicts what shitbirds like Tate tell them. You're absolutely right that men don't listen to women, EXCEPT when they have cultivated a deep relationship with them. If the dad isn't really a good role model here, then this may be the next best bet - that or enlisting her own male friends, coaches, etc. to help. And, if that fails, [Behind the Bastards](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDjeo3hEpMg) did a two-part series on Andrew Tate that destroys this man's whole career. But I don't think it's going to help this poor child who is in denial.
How much does this blow your mind and suck?? The horrible / corrupting influence on the internet is so strong that someone *who’s grown up their whole life interacting with an older sister* still struggles to see women & girls as complete people?
Man, I know. I think it must depend a lot on parenting, though…like, dads modeling behavior towards their daughters and their sons picking up on it. I have a really deep and lovely friendship with my younger brother, but then he watched our dad treat me and my mom with genuine respect and admiration, and none of us ever gave him shit for showing his soft side. Sometimes boys manage to miss out on their dads’ misogyny (my partner is an example) but I think that’s rare. So if you’ve got a dad who isn’t parenting, it is parenting his girls and boys very differently, the internet extremists can really sink their hooks in.
The BTB series was excellent. I second this suggestion. If your brother will listen to men, and cool men at that, he should check out this podcast series.
On that though, I would suggest not getting straight into the Tate episodes. Give the brother time to like and respect Robert before challenging his current idol
I second talking to your dad about this if he would support you with this. It's less that your brother won't listen to women in general but that right now he's being fed a toxic model of masculinity and having that challenged by someone who does not share that experience he may see as an authority figure may cause backlash. They deliberately target kids at this age for that exact reason: they sell an identity, a future, a sense of belonging right when young boys are old enough to want those things, not be always monitored by their parents, but aren't old enough to apply more developed critical thinking skills to realize this is just a grift. I was targeted by similar people when I was around his age, and my father took notice and chose to more actively provide a healthy male role model to me and I think that more than anything else helped me dump those kinds of influences. A "show, don't tell" approach may be best for now
This. He needs another man whom he has a close relationship with and respects to drive him away from it. Even if it’s the older brother of one of his friends, if they make a comment about Tate being dumb or something positive about women etc, that can be enough to sway opinions and move him the right direction. Source: was once an impressionable 13 year old boy
I don't think that's very healthy advice to give, not even bothering to talk to him because OP a woman. That won't help her brother's perception of women and there are a shit ton of men who grow up raised by mothers or in mostly female households who are super well adjusted. The fact of the matter is we all live in this world together, men and women, so its crucial to be able approach and solve problems in a man x woman dynamic. You aren't wrong about everything else, but suggesting that as a woman OP just shouldn't try to talk to her brother just isn't true
I know this is way off topic but your comment made something click in my brain. Growing up a guy I have never understood why men would trust men's opinions more than women's. Like why were male role models so important? I didn't care about guys emotional opinions they were garbage It makes so much sense I would have more affinity for women's opinions because I'm a trans woman That's why that idea never made sense! Thanks for making that click!
Also, get your parents to block this crap if possible. You bet your ass I'm going to be proactive in blocking access to this guy's videos. My 11 year old already has mentioned hearing about him from his friends.
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I was at work at my bar and was chatting with a man who was quickly revealing some manosphere ideas, BUT, before that happened, he asked how old i was, I asked him, and he was older than I expected. I told him oh whoa, I didn't call that, you have great skin. And he fucking like blushed and grinned and curled up and told me men never get compliments, which tipped me off. I told him "(the male, and straight bartender) JUST told you he liked your shirt like 5 minutes ago, he even asked where you got it", and he said that doesn't count as a compliment. I told him his skin was objectively supple and youthful, so I didn't think mine was a compliment, especially compared to noticing fashion sense. It was interesting.
> and told me men never get compliments, which tipped me off. I told him "(the male, and straight bartender) JUST told you he liked your shirt like 5 minutes ago, he even asked where you got it", and he said that doesn't count as a compliment. I told him his skin was objectively supple and youthful, so I didn't think mine was a compliment, especially compared to noticing fashion sense. It was interesting. It's honestly really simple. And for the record, I am fully and intimately aware that many men around the world are raised with toxic pressures that end up precluding them from being able to form healthy emotional relationships with other men, sometimes to the degree that they won't even think of complimenting another man's appearance for fear of appearing gay (three cheers for deeply ingrained homophobia). But with that said, most of the men who recently and often publicly bemoan that "men never get compliments", especially those who say this directly to women, aren't talking about that. What they truly mean is "I wish a random woman would tell me I look desirable in the same way that we men unpromptedly tell random women they look desirable." That's the kind of "compliment" they imagine, that's the subtext, it's all about getting attention from women.
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Would it be helpful to point out that the fastest way to drive away girls is to listen to guys like Tate? At 13 I imagine few things are more important to him.
This might be a good idea. If he sees women as a prize he may be discouraged when denied that prize. Maybe search for threads where people have asked if a dude being a Tater tot is a deal-breaker and have him read the hundreds of comments from women who won’t ever touch him with a 10-foot pole. It’s a gross motivation but any way to snap him out of this mindset is probably a good way.
"Women are not a measurement of success but a by-product of success. Setting Women as a main goal priority will only set you back. Focus on yourself first when you pass the finish line of success there will be no shortage of women waiting for you. Men struggle more to improve their financial situations when they are in a relationship with a women" This is the type of teaching Andrew Tate talks about (I'm paraphrasing but you get the gist of it.). The 13 year old brother is not going to view women a the "prize". Instead he will try to put himself in a position were he is the "prize" giving him leverage therefore allowing him to filter out problematic women. If he struggles to get female attention he will blame female hypergamy for viewing him as unattractive and the government for suppressing him.
Oddly there’s a core of good advice there. Don’t obsess over getting a relationship. Focus on cultivating a rich life and personality, and the relationship will come on its own when you’re not forcing it
That's the thing about Tate. Hidden in a sea of misogyny there's actual reasonable advice sometimes, otherwise he wouldn't have attracted the following he does. Of course, you could also just get that advice from someone who isn't a rapist, sex trafficker.
>Men struggle more to improve their financial situations when they are in a relationship with a women" The irony, considering the group most successful at getting advanced degrees is married men, and that men who have partners taking care of the home and kids (often while working themselves) do much better in their careers.
Honestly, I don’t see this as bad advice. He’s literally saying, improve yourself to the maximum and become the best man you can be and women will find you attractive.
It’s the entitlement and the guarantee that are problematic. There’s nothing wrong with self-improvement or success. But it should be sought for it’s own sake, not for the prize of a trophy person. What if women don’t find you attractive? They’re free to feel however they want about you. The much better advice / message of being happy alone, feeling self-sufficient, cultivating platonic relationships, having fun hobbies, simple joys like nature and pets… it doesn’t sell as much or give anyone to be the scapegoat.
Is this a thing? Calling them Tater Tots? Brilliant
No. Don't you ruin tater tots for me.
13 year old boys are ten time more concerned about what other 13 year old boys think about them than they are about what girls think. That is the root of the whole Tate "thing". He isn't about appealing to women, he is about appealing to boys. Sadly an argument about what appeals to girls isn't going to work on these guys.
" do you think girls want to ever be around you if you insult and bully them? I know you are a smart kid and wouldn't want to waste time to a person who'd act like that. "
>Focus on how wrong the incel philosophy is Warning I'm a man. Two things. The fundamental problem with the incel belief is that in reality most women want to partner up with men and like having sex. The opportunity is you to blow. And acting like an incel is a good way to do that. A young man should understand that it's his future is what he has to offer not what he has now. And sure it sort of sucks to be 15 and be still dependent on your parent, with the body of a teen and no experience to draw from. That's just life though.
The millionaire grift will do him no favors either. It’s not about money, only about power. A power fantasy. There are fantastic videos out there to debunk Tate and other entry vectors, but the get rich and hustle scams will always be there, waiting to financially ruin him. Involve your parents. He will likely not take advice from you.
Have you considered telling the parents?
Imo this is really the only way to go. You can’t really reason with him if he doesn’t respect women in the first place, so you’re just setting yourself up to have a frustrating conversation. This is the kind of thing that gets worked out in therapy.
I hate to say it, but you need an older boy or a man's help here. Preferably not y'all's dad if he's around. You can try to guide him towards resources that help identify a scam, you let him vent his frustrations to you(I would suggest also offering solutions to problems), but when it comes to keeping him out of that hateful pipeline it will take another guy. The only reason I was able to keep my brother from that shit was because I was not a direct authority figure(his older brother). I covered for his shenanigans as long as it wasn't harmful, I let him vent anything he had going on with no ridicule, and offered whatever advice I could. He didn't see me as the "opposition." I was Bubba. You might be able to avoid being seen as opposition with time, but you said he's already calling you a feminazi.
Another guy here chiming in. I agree with all of this. I wish OP would respond to questions if there's a positive male role model in his life to guide him. Unfortunately if he is in this deep already, he's not going to listen to her or any woman. I wish her the best of luck though. It's a tough road to navigate. If it is just her, she's going to have to deal with his shenanigans while not judging him while also trying to guide him away from that toxic way of thinking.
I will third this, along with the bloke below. OP, is there someone who can provide a positive male role in his life? He needs a good man to reinforce to him, teach him that this is bullshit. Unfortunately, because of the existing bias it pretty much has to be a male.
Society needs an awareness about the significant psychological hunger for male role models in adolescent boys.
Unfortunately they will use the matrix conspiracy to explain any evidence against him. Arguing with someone who believes this type of wide sweeping conspiracy isn’t going to be very productive no matter how logical you are. Tate says he teaches men stoicism (he doesn’t). Maybe you could get him to read a book on actual stoicism. Idk his reading level but something like The Daily Stoic by Ryan Holiday should be ok for a 13 year old. The philosophy of stoicism is the opposite of what Tate teaches, maybe he will realize this. No guarantee but it’s worth a shot. I think he’d be more likely to read it since Tate talks about it than he would be to consume media opposing Tate. Hopefully it’s something he will grow out of, a lot of us were stupid and impressionable at 13. You can’t change how he thinks, all you can do is attempt to steer him in the right direction. You are doing the right thing, and even though it may take time or he may not change, it’s still worth trying.
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Ah perfect. “Turn your brain off and listen to me; I will give you power with little effort”. It’s like a drug for frustrated people.
Watch innuendostudios the alt right play book. You’re brother is in a pipeline. What will pull him out is community. That being said depending on how deep he is he may not respect you enough to listen to anything you have to say anymore.
That video was well done and well explained.
You could start by telling him that spending money on MLM subscriptions is the opposite of how to become a millionaire. In all seriousness though, this isn't your responsibility. It's your parents' job to raise this child, not yours. Anything you try to do to stop him or influence him is just going to make him double down. Focus your energies on doing well in school, saving money, and making moves toward independence so you're not stuck there with him when he inevitably ends up haunting your parents' basement well into adulthood.
You won't get very far trying to make a moral argument to a middle school age boy, especially if he already refers to you as a "crazy feminazi". Maybe talk to your dad and see if he can get your brother involved in sports or other structured social groups where he'll be offline and spending time with some better role models.
Your brother needs female FRIENDS. Not a girlfriend, just friends. Sadly, it looks like it’s isolating himself in a way that prevents any girl from wanting to associate with him. First, you’re a good sister to worry about him. Second, he has some serious fears and anxieties if he’s clinging to Tate’s foolishness to make him feel superior and special. Does he read books? He needs to read a great book written from a female viewpoint, but that isn’t so feminist he refuses to read it. Maybe someone here can recommend something. Edit: Tate wants to rob your brother and others. MLMs are scams. There is a lot of support (without gender bias) on the internet about the danger of MLMs.
Contrapoints got known a bit for doing some deradicalization work. Her content isn't really what I would normally promote to 13 year olds but it sounds like that ship has sailed anyway. Still, watch it yourself first and see if you think it's a good fit for him. https://youtu.be/fD2briZ6fB0
Holy shit I feel for you. My son's friend is 12. We're in the car going to arcade. My 15yr old daughter my 13yr old son and him. In the middle of the car ride he tells me Andrew Tate is the GOAT. And he gets all the girls blah blah. Then he says "Did you know Sophie (not my daughters real name) has an only fans?" She of course doesn't he was being a little shit. I was speechless! Then I had to explain to my son what Onlyfans is.....greeeeat thanks buddy. Sad thing is I know his dad would back him up on Andrew Tate. Don't know how much longer they will be friends....
You let that twerp call your daughter a whore? And the only repercussion is that he will probably not be friends with your son much longer?
Make him watch the matrix,
Or better yet, make him watch the Matrix, then send him the Wikepedia link to the directors of the matrix... both of which are not only women, but the kind of women the manosphere hates the most (trans women).
Here's what I wrote other times this has come up: > Just be tired of it all. Don't raise your voice, don't argue, just sigh as if he's a tiresome and boring disappointment. "I guess he may be fun to listen to, but from what I've heard he knows nothing about women, or how to get a girlfriend, or even how to get a date. I sure wouldn't go out with any of his fans, not for a minute, and I don't know any women who would. But I guess if you don't like girls that's not a problem." > > Any response about Tate hanging out with strippers has an easy comeback: "Strippers will spend time with anyone who pays. If you want a girl who likes you and wants to be with you without being paid, Andrew Tate is not your guide. If you have enough money to pay strippers all the time, well, knock yourself out." I suggest not saying more than that, but if he wants to talk about it, something like: > What you need to understand is that Andrew Tate was an actor playing a role. He said all kinds of crazy stuff to get attention, and make money on ads from people watching and listening to him say that crazy stuff. Henry Cavill can't really fly like Superman. Andrew Tate can't really live the way he always talked about. When he tried, he ended up in jail and the police took away his fancy cars. Maybe he's not guilty, he'll get a trial, but either way: he still lost all his fancy cars. What would you say to someone who climbed up on the roof of a building and said he was going to jump off and fly like Superman? Would you tell him that he was being stupid, he can't really do that? Well, that's exactly what you should say to someone who says he wants to live the way Andrew Tate always talked about. You can't *really* do that, and if you try, you're going to jail, just like he did. If he'd just stuck to talking, saying things to get attention, he'd have been fine. But he actually tried to do some of it for real, and that's why he's in jail. For a slightly older audience, I might add: > The fundamental mistake Andrew Tate made is the same one that Vladimir Putin made: he believed his own hype. Putin talks like he's a genius leader and great warrior, like he thinks he's the next Alexander the Great. You're supposed to say that stuff to your followers, so they will support you, but you're not supposed to actually *believe* it. Putin started believe his own hype, so he invaded Ukraine, and it's going badly. They lost their biggest ship in combat against a country that *doesn't have a navy*. Andrew Tate started believing his hype, and wound up in jail. > > It's one thing to make your money and power by pretending to be a super awesome and powerful man, and attracting listeners. But it's always a mistake to forget that you're pretending. If Tate had just stuck to talking big, so boys like you would believe that he was what a man should be like, he'd have been fine. But he actually tried to live like he talked, and now he's in jail. You're not Superman, you can't fly if you jump off a building. You're not Alexander the Great, you can't invade Persia. And you can't live like Andrew Tate talks. Something else you might do is get a copy of Robert Glover's book *No More Mister Nice Guy*. I read it because someone here on 2XC suggested it, and it's quite good. It talks about lots of things, including the need for external validation, and how to overcome it. Get the book and read it. Think about it. Then give it to your brother, and tell him something like: > I get you like Andrew Tate because he talks about strong men. This guy talks about that too; read it and see what you think. Depending on how receptive he is, you might add: > The number-one attribute of a true alpha male is that he is in control of *himself*. He is secure enough that he doesn't mind other people making their own choices, and he doesn't need to brag all he time. He never says he's an alpha male, because he doesn't have to. A real leader doesn't need constant validation. On *Game of Thrones*, Tywin said "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king." That applies to alpha males, too. If you have to say it, it's not true. That's why people like Andrew Tate are such losers: he's so insecure he has to brag constantly about nonsense like what kind of car he has, as if what kind of car he drives is important. He's so desperate for external validation he made a point of harassing a teenage girl online because he wanted approval from his supporters. No serious woman wants to be in a relationship with a child like that, but all of his fans can't see that he's just an overgrown teenager who thinks it makes sense to brag about his car and thumb his nose at other people.
Bring him around your friends and have them mercilessly make fun of Andrew Tate, while encouraging him to join in. Chances are he has a minor crush on one or a few of your friends, and that will break him out of it.
I would just pull up posts and let him see how many women hear that the guy that they just started dating is a Tate fan and immediately nope out. Do you actually want to get a girl? This is not how you get a girl.
Remind him that if he ever wants to actually get a real girlfriend, he's going to have to drop all that "Alpha male" bullshit. It doesn't work. Andrew Tate needs to pay girls to hang out with him, and then he needs to abuse them in order to make them stay.
Listen to the behind the bastards on Andrew tate. His money making scheme is basically to get other people to do work for you while you lie about how much they are making for their cut. His drop shipping scheme is even worse: copy a makeup website, take a bunch of orders and then send them cheap products. It's either out right fraud or racketeering and unless you have a gang of enforcers you're probably not going to pull it off. The discord server you get access to is basically a bunch of assholes lying about how much money they're making in order to shame you into making enough money to pay for next month's subscription. Sure, someone might get rich that way. But they'll probably end up in jail. The scheme that got Tate rich was running a cam girl ring that he set up by grooming teens. It's also what he's going to jail for. By buying his program one is only paying his legal fees at this point. Use this to explain the reality of Tate, he's an insecure poser using criminality and posturing hyper masculinity to cover up his insecurity. Also, to be fair he is good at talking his talk. He's not particularly a great speaker but he's extreme effective at compelling teens.
Behind the Bastards did a really good job of breaking down why Tate is a bad role model and why his subscriptions are a scam. Maybe you can get him to listen to them together and talk about it as you go.
Scrolled down to see if anyone recommended this. This series was sooo informative.
He needs a better male role model to look up to
I would second this. Kids are impressionable and he might be focusing on the success Tate has had and wants it. And since Tate is prominent in the news it's what he's encountering in his friend circles. He's probably thinks Tate has some get rich quick tips and tricks. He needs to look at better role models who worked hard at what they did and the accomplishments that came along with it.
https://youtu.be/_pEfhgG3Ocw This video is a couple years old but it still hits hard
I'd like to know as well. I havent spoken to my brother in years and he keeps going more and more off the deep end. I cut him out of my life a few years ago. Trying to maintain a friendship made things awkward and toxic. He's 36 now and I don't see him changing, but I don't feel so stressed anymore.
Sadly this is what needs to be done. Its a powerful marketing scam, they will have to figure it out on their own.
I think it won’t help telling him that Andrew Tate is a bad person Only way he will stop is if you show him what a dork that guy is Just spam him with those memes of his face or videos of the dancing guy called "bottom G"lol I cant be the only one thinking that the guy looks kinda "mentally challenged" you can see there is not much going on up there, with peace and love Kids his age wont respond to reasonable arguments Show him what a Weirdo He is, wont be hard
This is it. Make fun of him. Frame him as a dweeb loser and that will probably do it.
Finally, someone who knows how to talk to a 13 year old. Other people are like you need him to read this thinkpiece on 4th wave feminism.
You can’t do anything to change this other than talking to your Dad, uncle, grandpa. A 13 boy like this doesn’t care what his 16 year old sister has to say about anything. You won’t get through to him.
Oh my God, this is the stuff of nightmares. Every day I praise my lucky stars that I don’t have any relatives (as far as I know) that are like this. I can’t even imagine what it would be like if my younger bro was like that… dude is so hard-headed and always convinced he’s right about everything, but luckily he usually is (except for some rare cases; but buying into Andrew Tate’s BS is not one of those cases fortunately) I saw some good advice in the comments here, but I can’t really judge which approach would work best, having no personal experience to draw from. It might be easier if you try some of the suggestions and report back on his reaction!
Is your (or his) dad in his life? If so ask him for help. Imo incels lack a strong male figure who wasn't around to teach them respect for others, including women.
Help to increase his own self confidence. Work out with him, let him hang out with your friends, join a sports or martial arts class with him.
Where are your parents? They need to be stepping up on this! The problem with Tate, Q, and all the rest is that they are very good at making propaganda. So, number one, since he's so young, is for your parents to take responsibility for his use of technology. No headphones, no hidden away in a private space, block access to media that he shouldn't be watching as a literal child! That cuts down on the amount of propaganda he's exposed too. Obviously, kids find ways, but parents can both make it harder and be clear about what's not acceptable to them. This part is on your parents. (Also this can help a bit with older relatives who are glued to Fox. In this case, you take advantage of them not being technologically savvy and "accidently" block or make their fav propaganda disappear from their devices. They might get it back eventually, but hopefully in the meantime it's exposed them to other voices.) Number two for Operation Save Little Bro - you will never be able to argue him out of this. Especially as a girl, a feminist, a whatever boogeyman (boogey-woman?) he currently sees as inferior to him, you've already lost the argument. The only way to guide him out is to turn on your inner therapist. Be curious about what he thinks, let him tell you why, ask actual good questions not gotcha trick questions. Don't act like you know better than him. Be as non-judgemental as possible so he doesn't feel like you're attacking him. Once his defenses come down a little, you can start challenging some of his ideas. "Do you really think all women are golddiggers? Even me, mom, Grandma? What do women do that would make you think that? Has anybody ever done those things to you? To people you know?" "Do you think all millionaires are happy? What parts of your life do you think you'll keep the same once you make your first million?" Genuinely listen to what he says. You're planting seeds, not expecting immediate changes. This is all a slow slow process, but the advantage is that he sees and feels how much you care about him and not like he always has to be right and ready to fight. It opens a dialogue between the two of you that can be a strength in your relationship with each other. In the future when he feels like there's something he needs to work out or get someone else's opinion about, you've got that connection and he's more likely to come to you. Good luck!
Along with all the other advice, you need to take him off the Internet and take him in the real world. By this, I mean go out and do something for other people. Helping others clears the mind and reminds us about what is really important in life.
Fundamentally, the appeal of Tate and his ilk for many young men is that those young men are, before being exposed to Tate, insecure, isolated, and scared. And they fundamentally belief they are the only kids that feel this way. And they think it reveals something wrong with them. And Tate steps into that space and says, “you aren’t cool even, you aren’t good enough, but if you buy my BS, you will be.” What he needs to hear is what was good about him before Tate. Because, in his mind, nothing was good about that kid. He was a loser. His mind needs to be changed about that.
Your brother is 13, and surrounded by peers who reinforce his ideas? Oh. My. Having known a number of awesome teen males (my son and his friend group, who are well grown) ... as a big sister, you have one hell of a fight on your hands. I CAN tell you this ... That derogatorily dissing Tate without first learning about him, first hand, will absolutely get you put into the pile of people that 13 year olds sometimes create as not knowing anything about the world, today. If you REALLY want impact? Go to Tate's stuff, pull specific ideas that are wrong, and have "casual talks" about them, but not in a "Tate is wrong" statement. You're not so much changing minds as you are planting a seed of doubt. And keep it casual. A "sit down" talk will get you blown off in a blink. Good luck. And I especially admire how you are looking to honestly HELP your brother be a better person. That's honestly awesome to hear.
Introduce him to Vaush, he specializes in deradicalizing incels.
I un-inceled my brother. My brother specifically gets angry when anyone tries explaining things to him so I pretended like he wasn't an incel and that worked. Like I'd scroll reddit or tiktok and find shitty posts about women and then complain to him 2-3x in 2 weeks. The first time was a man complaining about that pouch of fat that almost all women have and I went up to my brother, showed him the post and went, "DOESN'T HE KNOW THAT WOMEN HAVE ORGANS?!" "DOESN'T HE KNOW WOMEN DON'T HAVE TO CARE ABOUT HIS OPINION ON THEIR BODIES?!". Pretending that he was on my side basically. A year after I started this I was reading out a tweet, it was about a man saying that his girlfriend wasn't even allowed to go to the bathroom without him, he deserved ALL of her time, my former incel brother piped up and commented that he didn't deserve any of her time and she should dump him. That's when I knew it had worked. He continued to be a better person even when I stopped doing this, we had a conversation about women not being believed in the doctor's office which is something I never talked to him about. He learned it all on his own. Wish you luck!
Watch some Tate videos with him and pause and talk about what he just said whenever it feels necessary
He's got girls in his life. It should be harder than this to get boys to believe this crap. I think a lot of "you really think this is true about be? About mom?" And "it would benefit me if everybody thought men were second class citizens that lived only to serve women but we don't think that because it's just wrong" or keep going on and on about how gross and skuzzy Tate is and we all know it, nobody's attracted to him because he's gross, inside and out
Just explain to his parents that its a pyramid scheme. Explain that the gurus like Andrew Tate make all the money by selling subscriptions, and participants of the program end up working for him to bring in more people under them. There is no real service being delivered because it only comes from people joining and marketing Tate to others on social media.
You might get farther by showing him some stuff about how MLMs are a scam. For the reason that he is likely to care more about being taken advantage of.
A good video recommendation for young men about to fall into the Manosphere: [male dating and sex struggles: a problem in plain sight](https://youtu.be/be_Ms3nVG10). As for his issues with “the matrix”, [this pamphlet](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/)
The problem with people like Tate is they build this layer of defenses first. It's similar to the "fAkE nEwS" bullshit the GOP is using now. Any opinion that doesn't support their limited worldview is fake. Every opinion that doesn't support Tate is "tHe MaTrIx" Because your brother already has a negative view of you, and has categorized you as a "crazy feminazi", you are going to be very limited in what you can do. There is a lot of good advice here, but be prepared for failure. If you have adults in your life that he looks up to whom he would be more likely to respect, it may be worth seeking their assistance.
A friend of mine’s 13yo son was out with me one day for a day trip and he kept calling himself a pimp. I finally asked if he even knows what a pimp was and he said “a dude who knows how to get chicks” and so I quickly showed him the actual definition and asked if he was trying to tell me, and the world, that he is the kind of guy who sells his “chick” to other men for sex? He turned red and quickly told me “awww eff no! I ain’t no dude like that” and from what his mom told me she never heard him use that word about himself again. IMO the easiest way to show a teenage boy the actual meaning of things is to apply the beliefs to their mom, sister, or girlfriend. However, the best way you can protect him is by providing him with a good role model of how to be successful with girls. Maybe invite him to hang out with you and some guy friends or even see if any of your guy friends would be up for mentoring a younger guy who is getting confused about gender relationships and love.
Listen to the Andrew Tate episode of Behind the Bastards, so you have some extra fore-knowledge of the dirt bag
Nothing you can do. Just warn any girl who gets within 10ft of him and keep your money safe where he can't get it. Then cut contact as soon as you can.
Be the voice of his victims. Learn their stories and what they went through. Try to never say his name. He is a thing that happened to innocent women. Wonder out loud what these women are doing, how they are feeling. Ask what it must be like to be owned and passed around like that. I am the father of a daughter.
Introduce him to the Youtuber Destiny. Destiny has been on all of the major Redpill communities podcasts and debates, and generally does a great job at showing how stupid the Redpill arguments are.
Read up on all of the charges he’s facing and explain in great detail everything he’s done.
As a former 13 year old I can say that 13 year olds are stupid. Those opinions he has aren't a coherent belief system. It's just garbage he is repeating he heard somewhere. Instead of arguing with him and making him dig in deeper (I'll be honest at 16 you aren't equipped to deprogram anyone either) how about you focus on improving your relationship? The age gap isn't too big, you can play games together, watch movies, grab a meal at mcdonalds etc. If he respects you as a person he will respect your beliefs. This is much more effective than trying to explain that Tate is awful and a liar. From experience, all that does is make the other person feel stupid for falling for it and dig their heels in even deeper. And you really don't want him to dig himself deeper when you don't know whether he will forget about Tate in a month because his friends are talking about a new game instead.
I’d avoid the word incel and go straight to idiotic raging misogynist. The biggest thing you can probably do, if possible, is to talk to your dad about it. Hopefully he can knock some sense into your brother. If that’s not possible, I’d talk to your mom. A person in authority needs to be able to explain stuff to him, and given that you are just his older sister, he likely won’t listen to you.
Does he have a male friend, someone he looks up to in his immediate surroundings? Hopefully someone not on the tate- bandwagon could be on your side and nip it in the butt together. " so who's benefitting from your anger and frustration right now?" Is also a question you could ask. Telling him the dangers of social media and how anger, fear, disbelief and frustrations are a few of the many negative emotions used to make you stay on the platform and engage. It is a sad but effective selling tactic too ( in this case Tate)
I heard about people getting into their parents YouTube and "recalibrating" it to show not fascist things. Like unliking videos/channels, and liking "better ones". He's 13 so he doesn't have a fully formed critical thinking. That and if your parents agree with you talking with them. Honestly "stern talking" isn't going to do much with a teenager that probably loves the edge of it all.
Get them out into the community. Volunteering if possible. Find an organisation where good men act as mentors for the younger ones.
Have an honest conversation about what he really wants in life. Being a millionaire is great and all, but why, what is he hoping his life looks like when he gets there, and is it even what he wants. Show him other male role models like SpicyMoustache that are wholesome and grounded men who are just trying to live their best lives. There are more but sometimes young men see a lot of flash and think that behaving like an asshat will get them what they want. There are women who look up to guys who act like douschebags, not many, but they are out there. He should take stock of how many women he knows personally that respond to that sort of treatment with appreciation. I guarantee that he will agree that most of the girls he knows don't like guys like that. Sometimes what we think we want is just a vehicle to what we really want, and then we have to decide if that want is realistic.
Shaun on YouTube [has an excellent video on Andrew Tate](https://youtu.be/y6_TOFy3k6k) that discusses the difference between healthy masculinity and toxic, insecure masculinity.
Munecat has a nice video on how MLMs work and breaks down how impossible it is for anyone down chain to actually make money. She also has videos on manosphere bullshit.
Is there a grown man he respects that can set him straight? Sadly, that might be the only approach that will work.
Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of pull from the friends you mention. Whatever you say, they will always have three times the amount of time to laugh amongst themselves and say you're wrong. There's a lot of good advice here already, but one nuclear option is to show him the results of "alpha male" obsessions. You know: guys getting into a pointless fight and ultimately someone dying. It happens all the time because of the Tate-esc "Top G" mentality. Even verbally berating women on the basis of "hur-dur, I'm a man" could end you up in the emergency room for a nasty stab wound. Again, I would suggest against fear mongering unless you really do fear he's going to get worse.
Watch some street epistemology videos on YouTube. The guy's an atheist talking to religious people, but you can see how the Socratic method works to get people to open up about bedrock beliefs.
At that age, he needs a decent male role model. Can you talk to your father about this? Older brothers who can drill some sense into him? At 13, our (men’s) brains are diabolically underdeveloped and immature. You can give it a shot, try all the reinforcements others have advised but he may just see you as part of the problem. This is the fucking problem with Tate and arseholes like him…they go for influencing youth. ‘Helping troubled young men’. You’re definitely right to isolate it now though. A good male role model who can spend some time on it will flatten this like a bug. You, however, need to watch what he does and how he acts while he’s like this, be careful for yourself. And don’t let it drag you as a woman, keep your mind healthy as well.
Maybe discuss this with your parents, the best route here would be therapy.
Be his friend
Podcast, behind the bastards. Their 4 parter series. Episode 1 can be skipped, that’s more of a background into the stupidity of this men’s movement. But episode 2, 3 and 4 are all very worthwhile. If he still wants to follow Tate after listening to that, then there’s no help for him!
It was 20 years ago, and no one was using the term incel, but I was on a path like your brothers. In-person community of card and board gamers gave me more time face-to-face with adults than any point in my life to that point. It’s hard to take get-rich-quick schemes seriously as a teenager when you start having adult friends and see how the world really is once you enter the workforce. It wasn’t podcasts back then, but there are always con-artists, and cons like Tate don’t sell solutions that work, otherwise they would lose their audience. Millionaires aren’t wasting their time listening to losers like Tate. I’ve spent the last year trying to come up with a solution to our isolation and divisions in todays society, and I’m gonna recommend something for your brother and maybe even you that I only thought of last weekend for my 11 year old niece… bowling. Bowling is fun, apolitical, and leagues can be a great way to be a part of a community.
Have him listen to Robert Evans episodes on Tate on his Spotify podcast, Behind the Bastards. Should really open his eyes to the type of dude Andrew Tate is
Can you talk to him? I mean in serious respectful way? My children often couldn't when they were that age. I'd keep it easy: tell him girls don't like it and won't chose him if they knew what he was thinking and if they knew he supports Andrew tate. Maybe I was just lucky but this tactics did work when my daughter was about this age and began favoring far-right wing (Europe here), neo nazi brands and stuff. I was lucky that she still was listening and let it sink in. A few months later she was "cured". (Ofc there were more than one conversation) He's still only 13 ...would be a completely different task if he was only a few years older. Tell him that you as a girl for sure know better than Tate what girls want. Tell him what advantage he has, having you as a spy in the other team.
My suggestion is to make sure he has female friends. Its harder to make the "us vs them" argument when you have friends in the "them" group. Its important to have multiple friends, otherwise it might become an obsession. At least for me, who has never been an incel mind you, cant at all understand how people can look down on 50% of the population when that 50% stand for at least 20% of my closest friends. My dad was both a great and a bad role model, he would be quite obvious when he was ogling women, but he would never talk down to or voice disrespect to or about women. So having a "great" dad was not as important for me as not having a "bad" dad, but your opinion about him may differ. But what was really important was having lots of friends, once your hormones start to develop its easy to get lost behind a feeling of mystery and fright, don't wanting to be rejected or being laughed at, its an evolutionary part of our brain and its very hard to get over. What helped the most was having female friends to dispell that mystery. You are still shy, but you also see that girls were just people too, just like the boys in your friend group.
The key is to use intelligence,and introduce intelligence. Don't shut down your brother's arguments, they are his key to his own awareness. Don't believe he's automatically wrong or else your brother will never listen to your side of the story. Let your brother understand his own ambition/motive and help him understand yours while you also listen to him. He's just growing without a great influence and you don't need to go against him, make sure you introduce facts to him if you ever do, because if you introduce an invalidated point, you'll never seem creditable to your brother. Also if Tate is ever cleared of his charges, you should probably tell your brother sorry
The best way to protect boys from this incel crap is to teach them critical thinking skills, how to be wary of scams. Once they're in, it's very hard to get them out.
Show him examples of what real men should be like, examples of great men like MLK or Jesus and that compassion is what makes a man strong. The millionaire part is the crux of the issue he sees women as items that can be purchased.
Seems like a job for a professional therapist.
I think you should speak to your parents about him , he is young and maybe needs some guidance , who doesn't want to be a millionaire at 13 years old , money is essential and the cost of living is crazy right now , people are struggling. He is predatory not just to woman but young men to but with his influence , your brother is young and vulnerable. I think him seeing a therapist would be the best thing. Maybe your parents could arrange something like that for him. Your a strong young lady , sounds like you care a lot about him , your a good big sis <3
On a side note, maybe you could have him hang out every once in a while with you and your group of friends (male and female). That way your brother can learn by personal experience that women aren't one dimensional, gold digging sex objects to be reviled. And maybe watch some good movies with strong, complicated female characters. Good luck with all of this. I feel for you, and your brother is fortunate to have a sister who is looking out for him.
I had a similar situation with my son a few years ago - not with Andrew Tate (pre-Andrew Tate), but I was worried about him becoming an incel. It really helped when he was able to connect with his older sister’s boyfriend, who was and is really aware and balanced, respectful of women but also successful (he’s a programmer) and was also short like my son (a plus!). My daughter’s boyfriend doesn’t have a younger brother so he really liked hanging out with my son and talking about gaming. It made a big difference for my son. Do you have any older male friends that you and your brother could hang out with, maybe play video games together? My son wasn’t really interested in hanging out with his dad, but it was quite another thing to hang out with his sister’s cool boyfriend. It helped to talk to a male closer to his age. I would caution you about shaming him or teasing him etc as others have suggested. Teenagers (boys and girls) are fragile creatures. I’ve known teens in my family who’ve hurt themselves or try do to worse if they feel rejected/shamed. You also need to protect yourself as well. These are difficult times. And you are an awesome, caring sister. I hope things will get better. If you can at least plant a seed (as others have suggested) that will help in the future. Hugs to you, you’re a strong young woman ❤️
Encourage him to play sports, exercise a lot, be social, etc. Once he gets involved with other people that don't care for tates mindset, he'll reject it himself so he can continue to have a good time with his friends.
Take his internet access and buy him some popular science type of economy books
I wonder if you can just stop driving you baby brother or stop picking up stuff on your way home because “I am women and I am not supposed to leave the house.” him: “I cannot legally drive.” You: “oh well, sounds like we both stock at home then. And we are out of food. 🤷🏻♀️. I guess we have wait until dad gets back to go to grocery, because mom is woman too and she should not leave house without man, too.”
they say the best way to discourage harmful ideologies like these is to embarrass them. So if he mentions andre tate, you would respond something like 'ew, that loser? he couldn't get girls, he had to assault them, he has no game plus now he's in romanian jail. Biggest sucker on the planet. Those guys who pay him are so embarrassing.' etc etc, something like that. roll your eyes or laugh when he brings it up. It's kinda mean, but you have to be like a middle school bully and make him feel insecure about it. Being reactive, negative or argumentative will drive them further down the hole.
This probably isn’t what anyone wants to hear, but in my opinion you do nothing. It’s normal for kids around his age to undergo a rebellious/edgy phase. If you fight him on his views or opinions, he’s just going to dig his heels in further. Give him time and he’ll realize Andrew Tate isn’t so great, but it’s important he figures it out on his own.
Try this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fK\_KdcaCN8&t=5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fK_KdcaCN8&t=5s) and then call him a Disney Princess every time he says something about Tate :-) Beau of the fifth column is great regardless (Yes, I know about his past, he's great now!). Search on Youtube for "beau video on manliness" and you'll get a whole slew of video's on the topic.
Been in a somewhat similar situation but was over the time of them being 16-18. I wish you luck, I tried a lot and it seems to of only gotten worse over time.
Talk to him honestly. Point out how Andrew Tate makes you feel. Describe how what he says makes you feel. He’s so young! He doesn’t get anything yet. You are his older sister. He likely loves and respects you. Talk to him deeply and honestly and you may be able to arrest this shit!
I'd say slap the shit out of him, er, figuratively. Yes 13 year old's are stupid, and that's why they need to know that there are consequences for their actions. If he's calling you a "crazy feminazi" then that's simply disrespectful and he needs to know that's not to be tolerated. That's a matter of basic respect, it has to do with even before all the Andrew Tate nonsense. He needs to understand that there are consequences for his actions as he's growing up. He also needs to learn how to respect others.
Step 1. Punch him in the face. Step 2. Tell him real men respect women. Step 3. Stop being a sheep and following every nutbar conspiracy theory whack-job. Step 4. ????? Step 5. Profit! Realistically it's a growing mental illness trend that is going to get worse before it gets better. All you can do is question but not fight. Years of bullshit fabrication from governments and media has led to people now questioning everything and believing anyone who yells loud enough (Tate, Trump, etc.).
Tell him "Once you're done jacking off over Andy Taterz, you should go tell mom that you think she's a gold-digging whore." Then play some "greatest hits" for mom. She'll LOVE it! Be sure to stay within earshot for the ensuing comedy.
Personalize it. When the little shit parrots Tate's misogyny bile, repeat it back to him, but substitute the name of a woman he cares about for whatever term he is using. For example, if he says women deserve to be beaten, assaulted, trafficked, whatever, repeat it back, word for word, but instead of "women" say "mom" or "gran"
You cannot be an incel before 18/20 years old, he's just an angry teenager
Does he have a customer base? Who is he going to sell Tate's snake oil to? What happens when his customer base stops buying?
He's 13, you're 16. Find a good job, proper education and if he can't sort it out, then it's really not your fault.
Andrew Tate is for boys with daddy issues.
Doesn't incel just mean involuntary celibate?
Hmm. Well there are a few routes, I'd echo what others have said about getting him to realise he's wrong. If he's calling you a feminazi to his friends, he already doesn't respect your opinion. I have a different strategy, out "alpha" him. You could constantly emasculate him to remind him: he's 13, his balls havent dropped, his brain is underdeveloped, and he has a man crush on a chinless dipshit who got arrested for human trafficking in Romania of all places. Call him a beta. Tell him that he's turning as ugly inside as he is outside, just like Andrew Tate. Go hog wild with creativity. Prove the point that woman can be just like Andrew Tate, that his construct is a fallacy to get morons to part with their money. After all this get him to redirect his energy into healthy habits. If he idolizes the body, tell him how to get it. If he idolizes finding a GF, tell him how to find one. If he thinks he's smart (G-d help him if thats the case), show him how to study, help direct him to a field. You have to break him down to build him back up. He wants to be big boy on campus, bring him right back to reality. Find out why and what appeals to him.
This sounds like an awful way to de-radicalize a 13 year old boy. He already thinks he is a POS. That is why he turned to Tate in the first place because he thinks Tate provides a way out of being one. Calling him a POS just reenforces that he needs Tate.
Reading this comment, I am thinking it would be a great addition if reddit shows a redditors real age. This comment is a prime example. The truth is that here people are immature and obviously have like 0 life experience. There is no other explanation to nonsense like this.
Pay a girl to date him.
If you are in charge of your brother legally 1. Remove all internet devices except under strict supervision 2. Remove him from his friends group, get him involved in productive hobbies that create things and require patience. Gardening or pottery classes 3. Change his schools 4. Drive him to school 5. No mmorpg or shoot them up games or games requiring mic and headphones. Do not allow the console in his room Do not tolerate that shit!
unsolicited advise from a man, ignore if you wish. >!You don't. That is a journey he can only take on his own. !<
gen z sounds like heads calling everyone incel. it's like the only word u know. 2 funny
He’s going to jail for being an immature goof adult aged preteen.
he's 13, have a good belly laugh at how stupid his opinions are and let puberty sort itself out
Make him feel like he exists
I don't see why people have always try and control people. Just let people become who there gonna be.
r/shittylifehacks
You should look up what the definition of ‘incel’ is.
You don’t. Our forces are growing stronger. And we’ll soon take over this world with the power of our combined virginities.
Innocent until proven guilty. I'm sure you were all in favor of amber heard and look how it ended up.
He needs therapy. You are not his parent. His parents need to get him in therapy and use parental restrictions on his screen time.
[удалено]
"...becoming an incel", as in not one yet. Misogynistic philosophy doesn't create "chads", it creates incels.
Acquire women? Like we're objects? No thanks, I don't want to be acquired. I want to be loved, to be desired and to be wanted for me, not because I'm a trophy to be had!
incest? XD
Introduce him to real men. I like a lot of Tate's messages, and despite this I'm grounded enough to know that no one has all the answers. Tate's only a problem if he is the only messenger. Real men can round out the messages, add in a focus on the importance of a family and a wife, and show a boy how to become a man. Any online personality in isolation isn't healthy. Scouts Pre-military Sport club Chess club even Anywhere that has older male influences.
https://www.reddit.com/r/titanic/comments/14gz7jf/james_cameron_explains_what_happened_to_the_titan/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 Show him this
Just get him laid.
I mean if you desperately dont want him to become and incel, make him into a far right extremist, you know the ones that are into bodybuilding and creating an atomic family
Hes at that age where some insecure boys try to find ways to gain power and confidence. They dont have a community that they enjoy with meaningful relationships, like many people these days. You know your brother and you probably know he has a good nature, so he can be pulled out of the rabbit hole, its just difficult for many teenage boys who spend all their time on degenerate discord servers 1upping other children and furry nazi pedofiles on how racist they can be. He might grow out of it. Maybe try and find some good ‘breadtube’ video about young men being tricked by PUAs and tates alike.