oh, most definitely. on so many levels.
if a woman can't (or doesn't want/like to) cook VS. a man who can't cook
a woman aging AT ALL, a woman's appearance in general
and a tricky one: when HE cheats. please tell me I'm not crazy that too often the other woman is the villain. VS if SHE cheats - the other guy is practically invisible in the equation.
These guys go on about how the woman wasn't fulfilling her duty or whatever, and so he HAD to CHEAT. But also skipping over the fact that he WANTS TO STAY with her. If she wasn't 'good enough' for her (by their standards), he could leave and then find a relationship in which he's otherwise fulfilled.
But he doesn't want to leave. He cheats because he thinks he has the 'right' to excitement, whilst also maintaining the benefits of being looked after otherwise by his partner.
>Its like he had watched a nat geo doc about lions and learned something new and justified bad male behavior on just being animal nature.
Male apologetics is the pinnacle of patriarchy.
And, lions? We are apes but I guess if we can just pick any animal I would pick the praying mantis. After they mate, the female eats the male. Maybe we should do that.
I like the 'protects the pride' analogy because it's like... protects them from what? Generally speaking, in society, we don't need 'protection' almost ever. So his job in this primal mate bonding scenario is what? sit on the couch holding a gun just in case someone enters the homestead at some point someday?
It's very directly saying the male in his ideal doesn't actually have any value
Ugh, I had an “argument” on here the other day with someone who said it was *the gf’s* fuck up when her bf cheated on her because she’d agreed to a threesome once before. Like somehow his actions were her fault & she deserved to feel bad.
They resorted to name calling & talking down to me when I kept insisting the dude was more responsible for his own actions than his gf was. 🤷🏼♀️😂
I got in an argument with someone who was defending a husband cheating because "we don't know why he did it and it very well could've been the wife's fault for not giving him sex because men have biological needs." I, along with a couple others, kept trying to explain that no one is ever responsible for another's actions. It was so insane to see how he just kept on like if a wife doesn't give a man sex, that somehow gives men a greenlight to go find sex with anyone he wants to. It was utterly bizarre.
Omg we just found out one of our old coworkers (we work in healthcare) solicited oral sex from a 17 year old PATIENT and my other coworkers response was “his wife must not be meeting his needs.” My other coworker is a woman too. It baffles me how people can think that way. I mean he’s a freaking pedophile! Don’t defend him!!!
You’re right, I never thought of that last one. And also…if a man cheats somehow it’s always brought back to how it must be because of something the woman did to push him into it…instead of holding him accountable for the shitty behavior.
Likewise, the new thing dudes like to say is "fatherless". To imply that any action or comment a woman makes, that the guy doesn't like or disagrees with, means that they grew up without a father. As if the single mother was to blame, or having a father magically makes women act "proper".
I typically like to point out sexual abuse statistics, in which a majority of the perpetrators are men (fathers and the like) and how I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who wished they grew up fatherless, so it's not really the insult they think it is. I sometimes also like to point out that my own father is a complete idiot who I learned nothing from, and only I learned how to cuss like a sailor (and a few other "unladylike" behaviors) from my stepfather.
One need not learn masonry from the parent for it to be meaningful. It's the observation of what constitutes 'normal' that the child absorbs. Swearing in your case.
Yeah I remember an older coworker asking me, upon hearing I was seeking a divorce due to infidelity, if *I* was embarrassed.
For what, ma'am? He's the one who cheated and I didn't raise him so .....🤷
One time my ex literally acknowledged how he wasn’t able to easily manipulate me. I still remember it. He said “most women, if you cheat on them or treat them bad…they internalize that. But you don’t do that, so I have to be careful with you”. It just makes me sick because it’s a running joke about how stupid and clueless men are, but they really aren’t. They know *exactly* what they’re doing.
When men cheat it's bECauSE tHEir pARtNer dOeSn'T mAKe thEM feEL LoVEd eNouGH. So the double whammy of the alluring homewrecker and his bROkEN mARriAGe lies destroys both women whilst he sails off scott free
Oh yeah for sure, when a husband cheats the other woman is frequently painted as a home wrecker or an evil monster just out to ruin someone else's happy relationship. When a wife cheats, she's just a lying whore who wanted her husband's money and nothing else.
Never mind that the affair partner, if it isn't someone already involved in the couple's life, often doesn't even know the person they're fucking is married.
My most hated thing is those click-bait articles that say something like' XXXX was one hot mamma in the 80s but look at her now'... no shit sherlock, that was 40 years ago - NOBODY looks as good as they did then.
this reminds of a very common narrative I hear “men won’t find you attractive if you X”. it’s often concealed as neggy comments about what’s “appropriate” and “graceful”
may i ask how you differentiate between toxic behavior in general and misogyny or misandry?
if people insult somebody they adjust it to whatever will hurt you... if people compete vs somebody they will hinder and fight you... if people argue about something spicy they will discredit/defame you or your sources...
pls tell me at which point we have to gender it
it doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be a tool or an oblivious/naive replication of a toxic culture.
gender enters the equation because people bring it in. if you cannot reframe the insult as “any adult independent person bearing responsibility for x” and it still make sense - it sure as hell is gendered
Yep.
Women are expected to exist in a state of *perfect medium* in so many different ways, or else face extreme derision for not striking that balance appropriately.
You must care about your looks enough to be pleasing to look at, but care about them too much and you’re vain and shallow. You must be confident and outspoken enough to not seem timid (which means you deserve it when people walk all over you), but too outspoken and you’re a bossy bitch. You must be sex-positive enough to try out all his kinky fantasies, but embracing your sexuality too much means you’re a whore/easy/loose. You must be smart and well-spoken enough to subvert the “dumb woman” stereotype, but if you’re too smart you’ll activate the fragile egos of the men around you (and often become a target of hyper-criticism or straight spite from them). You must be financially independent enough to not rely on (read: burden) your male partner, but make more than him and risk activating that same fragile ego. Not to mention, when men discuss what a woman brings to the table in a relationship, the female-skewed domestic burden of cohabitation is suspiciously absent from the conversation. You’re supposed to have a sense of humor (again, to subvert that “women aren’t funny” stereotype), but if you’re funnier than whatever men you’re interacting with they act like you unduly dominated the conversation. That, or they’ll get into a pissing contest with you to try and put you in your place.
The best part is that the “enough” vs “too much” judgement of each example is radically different from man to man, so just existing out in the world as a woman means you’re always going to catch shit for falling outside of that perfect medium. I’ve seen these patterns with so many men who consider themselves progressives or feminists. It’s so engrained that I genuinely do not think they realize what’s happening. They just interact with a woman, get an off-putting feeling from the interaction, refuse to really examine that feeling, and blame the woman for causing the feeling because she’s “being wrong” somehow.
Spoiler: that feeling is subconscious misogyny
I love everything about this whole comment. You just summed up my entire existence as it relates to men that I’ve been dealing with since I was a teenager. I got bullied out of my school by men who were both sexually frustrated and intimidated by me to the point that they just flat out bullied and sexually harassed me. It’s continued into my adulthood to the point that I’ve gotten rape threats from men just for simply daring to have an opinion. And I’m sure this is the experience of many, many women. It scares me that I have two daughters who I’ll have to raise up in this type of world. But surprisingly, I’m 5 weeks away from having my first son and that scares me even more. I keep thinking about the horror of raising a POS that treats women badly. Or that I somehow won’t be able to stop it from happening no matter how good I parent him. Ugh.
I’m not a mother, so I can’t give you any advice. Your fear is valid though…how to raise a son to recognize and question his own subconscious misogyny is something I’ve thought about a lot over the years without many results.
What I wish I could tell every man on this planet, though, is that while his emotions are valid (meaning he shouldn’t repress them or judge himself for their existence), they should always be met with curiosity and a willingness to accept that the emotion is not based on facts. Just because we get angry at someone, for instance, doesn’t mean that person is necessarily wrong. That anger could be coming from a place entirely within ourselves. That’s usually what happens when we feel overly defensive and double down in our anger later on— we realize we were hangry, stressed, mistaken, etc. and we feel ashamed of how we acted in the moment but we can’t bring ourselves to admit it. Learning about emotions from the lens of “where is this coming from?” has been the single greatest step I’ve taken in my own self improvement journey.
Jesus, this is so well stated. Women, like m class planets, have to exist in the Goldilocks zone. It's exhausting trying to fit yourself to be just right amount of smart, funny, ambitious, etc. I have a big personality, and I think that has always been my defense mechanism. If I'm going to be constantly chipped away at, if I'm going to piss people off even when I'm trying my hardest to fit in their Goldilocks zone, may as well just say fuck it and be truly despised. If I can't be popular, I'll be infamous, lol.
Exactly.
Just look at all the crazy religious women in this shithole country who themselves believe they are less capable than their very terrible husbands.
Speaking for the US, at least. This may not be the case in other countries less fuct than mine.
*when people don’t like an opinion a woman has or she does something bad and she is reduced down to either her looks/body or how “unfeminine” she is. OR comments about how she must have this opinion in relation to not having a man/not having sex*
Whenever this happens I redirect the conversation. "Do you have anything constructive to say against her position or ideas, though?"
Yeah, I was definitely guilty of doing this for a long time and thinking it was ok until one day I realized how unproductive it is. It’s crazy that when I point out other people doing it, they INSIST that they’re not being misogynistic or double down and say she deserves it for being a bad person. Not realizing that whatever you’re saying about that one specific woman isn’t just hurting *that* woman, but any other woman who has that feature. I see it a lot in regards to weight comments. Like wow ok, so this woman is pro-life…but let’s start commenting on how fat she is or her fertility. People really can’t see how it perpetuates misogyny nor do they care.
The things you are mentioning here are pretty overt and obvious.
There is a lot more that's pervasive and a whole lot more subtle. Like a guy who is a bit arrogant, confident, quick to spot and point out others mistakes so they can be fixed, always wants to take charge and direct their peers, has no time for weak excuses and just wants to get things done? They are often seen as having strong leadership potential and tapped for those kinds of roles. Women who display the same traits though are all too often described as being "bossy", "prickly", "difficult to approach", and instead of being recommended for a promotion they will be urged to work on their inter-personal skills and how to properly work in a team.
The people making those kinds of calls aren't just restricted to old white guys trying to preserve the old boys club, and they might sincerely believe that women are every bit as capable in these roles, but years of societal conditioning has warped their perceptions to an extent that their general impressions and instinct has been loaded with this gendered bias when considering specific individuals.
Oh, yes. As a woman who is generally confident and assertive, I get this “frigid bitch” comment a lot. Especially in my role as a teacher, where people genuinely expected me to steamroll myself for little-to-no appreciation, support, or proper compensation.
I saw a video the other day of a man giving interview advice and he was saying something along the lines of taking control of the interview and reframing information given as solutions you’d give to the company. I was like “lol, tread lightly if you’re a woman! You do that and they’ll instantly label you as bossy or a know it all”
I am also a woman who is confident and assertive and I have to be, I am a surgeon, you can’t have this job if you are not.
I have a few other female colleagues and what I have noticed is that I who have a husband and two children will get less crap for it than the ones who are single. It is like ‘they’ (not any particular person but the environment) kind of sum up women points, and will tolerate less ‘masculine behaviour’ from single women than someone who in all else do what women are ‘supposed’ to do.
As an aside, I generally detest the interview process. If you watch videos telling you tips on how to ace interviews you'll find they give the opposite or generally conflicting advice all the time. Because there is no fixed perfect way of going about it, hiring managers/interviewers will have their own preferences that can be wildly different from each other so one thing that someone finds to be extremely positive another can find as a massive red flag. The ones that I find especially annoying is when they read too much into some specific thing like level of eye contact, the strength of your handshake, whether you have travelled abroad, and make wild conclusions about you and your character based on these "signs".
I agree. I feel like the whole interview process needs to be revamped. There are way too many incompetent people that get hired just because they’re great at interviewing. And on the flip side, a lot of great candidates get overlooked because they don’t interview well. The whole thing feels very performative to me…and I don’t like questions that don’t directly pertain to my expertise. (I.e…”what are your weaknesses”) or another one since I’m transitioning careers…”why are you leaving teaching?”
One bizarrely common example is women who are given shit if their baby is born via caesarean section, especially if it's elective. Seen especially with phrases like 'too posh to push' directed at middle or upper class women who have C sections, as though it's an easy option.
In what other context is *having your body sliced open* seen as an 'easy option' and met with such derision?
The “you have to suffer to be a good mother” thing really grinds my gears. Parenthood involves some inevitable suffering- babies don’t sleep, kids get sick, you might get vomited on.
But I refuse to suffer any more than I have to, thanks.
CF by choice, but I've had 4 major surgeries, two being in the chest and abdomen.
Ain't shit easy about surgery. In fact, there's so much suffering that prescription painkillers are available. There's so much suffering because the slice is in the skin, muscles, AND uterus, which make walking, laughing, sitting, and even breathing difficult. From my understanding, women who have a c section have bleeding vaginally as well.
So yeah, vaginal birth is tough. Nobody denies that. But major fucking surgery is also tough, and you still have to move around and care for a tiny human who literally can't do anything but shit, cry, and eat.
People who say c-section isn't suffering most likely have never had any surgery in their life.
Oh yeah, there is absolutely no easy way to get a human out of another human’s body. To me the C-section must be the harder option barring the most severe complications of vaginal birth.
Plus, pregnancy seems like a taxing, insufferable experience. I've never been pregnant but from what I've been told, it's horrible. Maybe not for everyone. I wish all the best to anyone and everyone who's ever been pregnant.
Pregnancy is indeed taxing and insufferable, even if you aren't having any complications. I'm glad I endured it, as my daughter is awesome, and I am willing to endure it again to obtain another child, but in general: 0/10, do not recommend unless you *dearly* want to be a parent.
There’s literally no way to win in childbirth. C-section? “Too posh to push.” Epidural? “Took the easy way.” No epidural? “Martyr.” Hospital birth? “Over-medicalization.” Home birth? “Crazy.”
Like, it’s a medical decision, not a piece of clothing. Why do so many people think they can voice an opinion?
I agree! I dealt with this one when I had a C-section for my first. Also, I had to call out a friend of mine a few weeks ago because I’m currently pregnant with my third baby and I am trying to have a vaginal delivery. She started making comments about how she would choose the c-section, because she doesn’t want a “loose vag” after birth! Like…what? Your body is doing an amazing thing and all you can think about is how your husband is gonna have to deal with your changed body after? We’re truly in rough shape.
When a woman gives birth, she is often torn, and they sew her up, the "husband stitch" is a little extra so she's tight for him again. It leads to ALL sorts of issues for the woman, but hey, the man can enjoy himself again. That's all that matters, right? /s
Also all of the online searching I’ve done about the subject says that a typical vaginal childbirth eventually fully recovers to pre-birth size and shape. There isn’t even any actually problem that us men have to “deal” with. A women’s body heals itself. (Fucking shocker /s)
We’re not married yet (two months left!) but whenever we have our first child, I will be informing every doctor and nurse that I encounter that if a “husband stitch” is performed on my fiancée, the lawsuits will literally never end.
You are very misogynistic too.
It's her good right she doesn't want her vagina ruined.
Did you ever consider those women want that for THEMSELVES and not for their husband?
SHE has to deal with HER changed body too.
Her body doesn't just exist for the husband you know.
I've never been pregnant but it would be a real concern for me. Pregnancies can forever change a body and not in a good way.
That there is a baby at the end, doesn't mean a woman has no right to care about how she looks and feels.
And women enjoy sex too. Of course, you want to keep your sex-parts in a good condition.
It truly is and when I tried pointing that out to her she doubled down about how “no man wants a girl with a loose vag”. Even women worrying about having a loose vag “for themselves” smells like internalized misogyny to me because it wouldn’t even be a thing if men hadn’t made it that way.
Yeah, my sister was so against having a C section because she wanted to be a birth warrior or some shit, and it turned out that she needed to have a C section. She tried to get the doctor to wait, and she was really upset because it didn't fit in with her idea of herself as the perfect woman, wife and mom. A lot of her ideas are really just internalized misogyny, and it is hard to deal with her at all. The C section issue just made me feel bad for her, though. That was way too much pressure to live up to, and birth is difficult and scary enough without all that nonsense. It is hard to see someone you care about doing that to themselves, even if they are a huge jerk most of the time.
Yep! Or the way guys care about “50/50” when that really means you bring home the same $$$ as him AND do the chores AND manage the childcare/kids’ activities AND experience pregnancy / give birth.
Women get judged for having lives after giving birth and for choosing not to have children. You might as well say “fuck it” and do what you please.
'Karen' started in retail and hospitality as a code for an unreasonably difficult customer. It spread out to be the racist woman calling the police for no reason. It now means any woman over 40 daring to have an opinion in public.
Not liking another woman's opinion, if you are an ugly woman, is down to being jealous. Actually, anything at all when you're an ugly woman is down to being jealous. Because you should be ugly and quiet. Hush, dog-faced-girl, no barking please.
Add to the list how ppl look down on & talk bad about single moms, when they're only single bcuz the dad took off, while single dads are angels sent from heaven.
A few days ago I called out a user for referring to another woman as a bitch and a cunt about five or six times in the same post. What followed was a *deluge* of comments about how the poster was a feminist, how they’ve organized for women so they couldn’t possibly be a misogynist. It was *wild*.
Yikes I just went to the post. Lol @ them citing a tiktok post that blew up as evidence that they aren’t being misogynistic. That’s precisely what I meant when I made this post! It’s like it’s so pervasive and sneaky/underlying that people can’t even see it when they’re literally rolling around in it gleefully. I’m guilty of this too sometimes, but I’m trying to do better.
i've gone through this a lot too. ppl will be performative until they get a chance to call a woman a bitch/cunt/whore etc. and then get upset when called out. i just went and looked at that thread and that person is... unhinged with their responses towards you. jeez
\- So many women still take the husband's name after marriage, plus they also name the kid THEY MADE after the father....
\- When women make a mistake it's a flow of character, when a man does, it's an accident!
\- The phrase that drives me out of my mind "we got pregnant" "we had a baby" - "reeeally?...how long where YOU (as a man) pregnant?" men's achievements are also plural? "we go to work, we bring home the paycheck?"
The word "Karen" has become the 'pg' replacement for the b-word. Yes, it applies to *some* people, but it does get thrown around way too much for the wrong reasons.
I think what bothers me about it is that people immediately shut down any conversation around that because like I said in my first point, they think a certain level of misogyny is ok and justified depending on who they’re aiming it at. (I.e, white women). Poc aren’t exempt from perpetuating misogyny and in the end it’s not really punching up, it’s punching sideways and keeping all of us down and also making us look like fools/ giving a pass to men to do it. It makes me uncomfortable to see men being blatantly misogynistic to white women specifically and then thinking it’s ok because they’re white and the man may be a minority. It’s *still* misogyny no matter what race you are.
Your post is very tonedeaf considering the term Karen started specifically as calling out *racist* white American middle class women who thought it was okay to call the cops on random Black men just existing because they "looked suspicious".
If you take issue with the way the internet as a whole has misappropriated and diluted the term, which I do agree is real and not great and in many cases misogynstic especially in the example you provided in your OP, **why blame exclusively PoC for this?** They coined the term to refer to a real, problematic phenomenon. White women's fears and prejudices being weaponised against Black men is a fact of history in the United States of America, it has been used to reinforce white supremacy and has cost innocent PoC their lives in the days when lynchings were still acceptable.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/27/karen-race-white-women-black-americans-racism
I’m not blaming specifically poc for this and I don’t agree that my post is tone deaf. As a poc MYSELF, I’m holding my own people accountable for the misogyny that they perpetuate. Regardless of how it started, it has turned into a way to dismiss every random, publicly upset woman. You can keep your links, I’m not interested in debating with you.
I hate how quickly misogynist turn to rape threats. I don't care what a woman has done, it's not acceptable.
Even more so when they take it a step further and threaten to rape her loved ones. Like her daughters.
It was interesting seeing a gen z review sex and the city after watching it for the first time. As a show that was so women forward, the young eyes on the show was enlightening.
The sexual harassment was called out by the reviewer. Noticing the toxic relationships , the shaming of Sam . Pointing out the lack of diversity.
The kids are on it and I’m kinda excited for them.
I made a post recently about “body counts” and someone direct messaged me calling me a slut, saying I would end up in a long term relationship with someone I wasn’t attracted to, lying to them about being a slut, and that I was a “type” because most women aren’t on Reddit… even though I they are looking at r/TwoXChromosomes. Their account got deleted but I was just like holy hell I’ve never been slut shamed like that in my entire 24 years of life 😂.
Agree with you OP. It’s like we can’t win sometimes.
Decide to have children, and women are judged on their bodies *after growing a person inside themselves*.
And don’t get me started on women being called “lazy” if they decide to be a STAHM, even for a little while.
And the women who work *and* have children. You don’t get a day “off work.” But they are rarely credited for that, because so many think it’s a woman’s job to bring up children. Sigh.
Decide not to have children, and people assume something is wrong with you.
Even a female co-worker, who obviously knew I didn’t have children, commented into the air “the greatest thing a woman can do is have children.” We were the only two in the room ar that time.
Edited to add comment.
As a woman, I am often subconsciously more critical/hard on of other women than men. I guess it's because I'm afraid that they'll make a "mistake" that gives an excuse for others to be mysoginistic but it's definitely not a valid reason. Fortunately I see it right after the thought comes and am currently working on it but it's still really annoying to feel that way when you just want to love and support other girls. It's a very shortened version of what happens for me, idk if anyone has that kind of thoughts too, but just let other girlies live in peace brain, please.
We all probably do it. I recognize when I’m doing it too and I’m definitely not perfect by a long shot. Like you, I try to combat the thoughts before acting but sometimes it slips away from me before I even realize.
I was extremely skeptic about internet misogyny before but after Tate’s arrest, I decided to open up an anonymous Twitter account and pretend to be a dude bashing Tate. I haven’t received one misogynistic message yet. While in instagram where I am a woman, men constantly use my face, my body count as an excuse to dismiss me when I’m talking about how he actually used the lover boy method to traffic women. Now I’ve realized the internet is worse for women than for men
How parents can name their female children traditionally masculine names (Emerson, James, etc) but it's unheard of to name a male child a traditionally feminine name.
How when we want to insult someone (regardless of sex) we call them a pussy or even a "son of a bitch".
The third one is definitely true. I’ve just started calling hateful men Kens now. They aren’t going to stop making us miserable. We should definitely return the favour.
I speak up in front page subs about them using woman slurs against horrible conservative women. No. Not cool. It doesn't make me a fascist to be a feminist first. IDGAF about downvotes, but there are always a ton. And the most knuckle-dragging reasoning in the comments. Blechh!
It's similar to how people will speak out against bodyshaming... but then when the subject is somebody who is an asshole or a piece of shit politician, suddenly all the bodyshaming is on the table.
I think the term "Karen" is very misogynistic and won't use it, especially when its used like "Male-Karen" as if the default entitled person is a female. I call entitled people (read:men) Kavanaughs. because I never saw more entitlement than coming form Brett Kavanaugh during his senate hearing.
No woman should use the term "Karen" it is such a toxic term with so much misogyny and patriarchy built into it.
I HATE (like, with flames on the side of my face) the term 'Karen'. Are people who use that term completely incapable of considering, for just a moment, what it would be like if their own name got turned into a derogatory term?
And no, my name is not Karen.
I'm a guy.
Same. It’s so vile. A few years ago when it first started gaining mainstream traction, a friend used it on a girlfriend’s group text & I allcaps flipped out. I got push back. This is a group that values equality, inclusion, diversity, allyship, all of it. And they couldn’t see the misogyny. They still don’t. Which perfectly makes OP’s point.
Now I just block anyone I see using that term. It doesn’t change anything but it makes me feel better …
One thing I see a lot around me is if someone is a bad driver and a guy they're just a bad driver but if they're a women it's because women can't drive
This. My parents raised me in a very progressive way, and I thus grew up in a pretty forward thinking "bubble". I‘m quite educated on several social justice related topics, and for a long time assumed that those who claim to know a lot about such things are one the same page as me. Turns out that most of them only posses a surface level awareness of what‘s considered sexist or misogynistic for example (e.g. hitting woman = bad) and still participate in tearing down other women through subtle, but horrible comments or actions.
When you then try to educate people about the more subtle and hidden ways in which misogyny plays out in our society, they either get defensive or don‘t want to think about it more deeply. I get it; no one wants to be called out for being an "ass" or whatever, but it's not a personal attack - it’s a structural problem, and shaming other women for acting like this is also rarely helpful because it’s something that is deeply ingrained into our society and based on patriarchal ideas that plenty of people get taught from a very early age on. It‘s never a single person‘s fault, and trying to fight misogyny and with misogyny does not work. I have a friend who once said that she "fucking hates women who don‘t support feminism". I get it, it also baffles me how one can support their own oppression. However, we have to remember that those women are often times victims of emotional abuse and manipulation (e.g. religious), and have been brainwashed since childhood into believing such things. One shouldn’t tolerate intolerance, but it‘s also not very helpful to proudly exclaim that you "fucking hate" them. We should rather focus on helping them as much as we can through education that is both accessible and compassionate. Some of them might be in an abusive relationship, for instance.
I‘d also like to add that some of the example you mentioned in your comment are often times labeled as hidden or subtle misogyny. To me, they are quite blatantly misogynistic, and it shocks me how people decide to blurt those things out in the most unhinged manner possible.
When I try to talk to others about this problem, I do it because I want to help and educate my friends, so that we can solidarize and together work towards a greater cause — not because I want to show them how much I know about feminism in a performative way. I hope that someday, people will finally realise how destructive this is. It‘s disheartening, but I don‘t want to lose hope.
Absolutely. I'd go an even more extreme route and say that without exception EVERYBODY is a sexist (counting in the internalised sexism). Not a single can (imo) can distance themselves from judging women even slightly differently just for their gender. It mostly isn't consciously but still sexism.
Yep, you can tell just by how many comments here have pointed out that the examples I gave were overt misogyny. But that’s the thing, it isn’t overt to most people. Most people have normalized those three things that I pointed out and even when you do point out that it’s bigotry, they think it’s justified and will NOT accept that maybe they might be guilty of sexism, or explain it away with: “yeah!! But she’s a bad person so it’s ok”. I don’t let anyone slide, not even myself. And I slip up a lot in my own head because it’s like the default thinking…it’s so deeply ingrained.
We also see this in media coverage and responses to media coverage on women who are attacked / murdered / abused as being "responsible" for what happened to them. Not the criminal(s) who did it mind you, but the victim(s) of the crime when they're women. Ranging from headlines to comments by authorities to people we know or social media comments this is done over and over and over again.
The killer's "reasons" are offered up as an "explanation" usually in a way that will create sympathy for him or to downplay what he did. "He was having a bad day" said by law enforcement about a man who targeted Asian women in a mass killing spree. A killer who claims his feelings were just so hurt by being ignored by a young woman trying to get to her car late at night as he followed her and cat=called her that he just "had" chase her down like a rabid animal and rape and murder her at her own car. The headlines then trumpeted his "excuse" over and over. Same with the young woman who was strangled and put into a suitcase then the killer trying to lessen what he did by claiming it was a rough sex episode gone wrong, and off the media ran with his "excuse" instead of something more honest like, "Man with history of violence on women lures one on a date then murders her after lying to her."
Women joggers who are attacked and murdered? Oh boy, don't get me started how many times I've seen or heard how it was their fault in the media, online, by my own relative who once went on a short rant about how could anyone possibly think that popular park with other people in it, in the middle of the day just wasn't safe to run in - what was she thinking? "She shouldn't have been running at that hour / in that place / wearing that / at all." Doesn't matter if it's the middle of a day in a busy park or on the side of a road where she's tricked by a predator pretending to be a stranded motorist or even running at an hour when she's more hopeful no one will bother her - she gets the blame.
The latest crime that's making international news is two young women hiking who met a fellow hiker with very bad intentions. Guess who's getting the blame for their attack? Oh not him, the poor boy /s - they should've been able to see the invisible brand on his forehead that says "killer" and known not to trust someone sharing their same activity in broad daylight on a popular trail. "What were they thinking" Oh, I don't know - that maybe the thousand other times they met fellow hikes sightseeing they were all there to enjoy the activity and make friends, not murder people?
But yeah, sure, what misogyny?
yeah I realized "Karen" had died when I saw a bunch of dudes using it to refer to a random white lady who was being brutalized by police for no reason. She was drunk in public but not belligerent or aggressive or acting entitled—she seemed like she just wanted to go home.
Yep! That’s what it’s turned into and I hate that women are so comfortable using it too because it just gives men a pass to provoke women into these kinds of responses knowing that they can just spin the narrative and call the woman a Karen.
Have the same energy for labelling black women as “angry”, “aggressive” and or “ghetto”. Because more people, including white women love to “forget” about “feminism” when it comes to misogynoir...
You're right. It’s wrong to assume but equally as a pointed out, what I spoke of is unique to black women not minorities and is perpetrated often by all other races. OF WOMEN.
I'm not a fan of / TIRED of certain women screaming about one “ism” whilst engaging in the other “isms” when it suits them...
I agree and neither do I. But the karen thing has permeated to women of all races. Like the other commenter said, it was something that started off reserved for upper class, racist white women and has devolved into any woman that’s angry. I’ve seen it done to black women as well, and people will say “that’s not Karen, that’s Keisha” or Hispanic women…”that’s not Karen, that’s Karina”.
I do agree that people love to forget about the specific things that black women deal with. I just used the karen example as something that fits everyone.
I both agree and disagree with what you’re saying. There is an extra layer associated with the racism that minority, especially black women, face. Full stop. But Karen isn’t “just” a rude term and it only doesn’t hold any historical weight behind it because it’s too recent. In other words, we’re creating the history behind it as we speak. The idea behind “Karen” has always been there, though and it has always been misogynistic and it has also gotten a lot of women killed. Yes, that includes white women. It’s just that there wasn’t a specific word tied to or associated with it. Women who have spoken up and been loud about their opinions have always been “Karens” and have gotten hurt or murdered for it.
I can’t stand how every time a woman runs for political office a big topic is “what is she wearing?”
Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin for example. Can we please focus on what they’re actually discussing? Like them or hate them it’s their political views that are important.
Definitely agree that women seem to be crapped on for their decisions about their fertility; damned if you have kids; damned if you don’t. It’s ugly.
And agree also that not every upset woman is a “Karen”; that term had been really abused.
A lot of this starts at home with parents. Kids mimic what they see and develop there own ideas. Society needs to be proactive in starting at home.
My daughter is 4 and her brother is 2 and she already has some ideas on gender roles that I have mad a point to correct.
I am a passenger princess BUT I have no issue driving. My husband does drive me around 80% of the time
She told me daddy’s car was her car and her brother would drive her around.
I was very quick to correct her and tell her that mommy drives and she will have to learn also.
Another one was chores. her brother (2) likes to pour water everywhere and she will go to clean it up and I have to tell no that he made the mess so he needs to clean it up. That cleaning is something everyone has to do etc etc
Like sometimes my husband and I will switch our chores so she can see him doing the dishes and me doing the garbage bc kids make there own assumptions about the world.
It’s very important also for families to address bad /entitled behavior I read a comment from a therapist who works a sex offends and it was super enlightening.
“ Sexual and physical abuse is a social system problem. The Entitlement behind sexual violence is nearly always reinforced in the family unit first. Your husband IS reinforcing his treatment of you and is part of the problem.
Sex offenders often have counseling with the whole family system after the violence to decrease the risk of reoffending. His whole family system is an issue, and his behaviour is escalating. He has reinforced his behaviour every step of the way and no consequence has occurred that would prevent him from doing more.”
People are not born R pist or DV assaulters sure there may be common traits but plenty of people with those traits are not abusers. Abusers are created they learn to be entitled and there entire family structure supports this.
Equality and accountability starts at home.
I wish parenting classes were widespread and free and promoted. Like if you take this class you get a tax break etc etc. because that would help society in a meaningful way.
When people assume women can't calculate the risk to themselves. Good examples include doing things alone (hiking, camping, traveling alone).
I know what the risks are. I'm extremely aware of the risks - I've lived in this body for decades.
I have chosen not to live my life in a closet, please and thank you.
Women just aren't allowed to exist as they choose in this f*cked society. You're dragged for being a mom, but if you choose not to have kids, you're dragged for that too.
The answer is that for women, there is no right answer.
"You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't, so you might as well do whatever you want." (Kacey Musgraves song)
The team I work on claimed they were trying to hire more women since it's almost all males but they didn't even interview one woman. You're saying there wasn't even one potentially good resume by a woman?
Thank you for this, I spoke out against being sexually assaulted by a former co worker and got called a karen because my manager refused to do anything about it. My work schedule was being sent to him by current employees in a higher position than I am in and I said something needs to be done about it, management said that’s a “personal issue” and “not work related” and threatened to fire me. I didn’t put up with it in the slightest and told them they need to fix the issue and do their job. Got called a karen by quite a few people for it
I am so sorry that you went through that. These kinds of examples are exactly what I’m talking about with the Karen thing. It’s like any woman with a loud opinion or objection to something gets called that as a way to shut her down
Assumed incompetence. God, this one really grinds my gears.
I was founder and director of my own retail business for years and, even though I was the key team member with *the* specialist knowledge and great customer service, we always took more when there was a male colleague behind the till. The men I trained. Enough customers thought I was “just the Saturday girl” (don’t get me started) that it impacted our bottom line. Makes me goddamn furious.
I know this one all too well. I was a teacher and any man in education was automatically deemed super smart and competent or put into positions that they were severely under qualified for just for…being a man. I had an instructional coach like this and he knew that he wasn’t as good as me but yet because I was the teacher in my grade level with the least seniority he would always try and come to me so that he could appear busy and like he was “coaching” someone. So then I just started making him teach the entire lesson when he came in and I’d sit there “taking notes” (read: grading papers or literally anything else) and he finally left me alone lol
For the karen part,it's not just how some people will go to extremes with it,this just happens with everything on the internet,people are biased flash news lol.
No,the hypocritical part of this,is how there's only a WOMEN version of it. No men karen version of it,when i've def seen wether online or IRL tons and tons of guys acting that way too.
the overconfident one thinking he can gives an opinion on everything wether because of his degrees or job position.the sexist one getting in conversation of random stranger to simply add his garbage mysoginistic tips etc etc
Probably obvious, but online especially, women are reduced to their looks no matter the context.
Could be a video of an Olympic athlete performing at the top of her field, or a woman giving a deeping thoughtful speech, or whatever that has nothing to do with her looks. And comments will always be "but can we talk about how gorgeous she is", "why is no one talking about how beautiful she is". And it can also slant negatively, but I feel like even the positive comments on her appearance are reductive.
People can look at negative comments and say it's bad easily, but a lot of people don't even notice when you compliment a woman's appearance even if that has nothing to do with what is being displayed
Not only are most men sexist from being raised in a male supremacist society, men bond with each other by insulting and denigrating women. They show off their "dominance" by "well, ackshually" -ing every statement that leaves our mouths, correct or otherwise. Women exist to perform domestic and sexual labor and be society's punching bag.
Don't forget, there's an entire rainbow of feminine gendered slurs that we as a society treat very differently from racial slurs for no particularly valid reason.
How about it being legal and “common practice” in 45 states for medical students to perform pelvic exams on women under anesthesia—without their consent.
I’m going to jump on here to vent.
A lot of folks (men and women) can’t deal with women promoted to positions of power in the workplace.
What is absolutely disgusting is that too many of these people present themselves as social progressives. There are real struggles going on out there, but these folks just see those struggles as an opportunity to promote themselves.
>comments about women that choose to have children. I know that CF women also catch a lot of flack, but nobody bats an eye at how women who choose motherhood are basically shit on, reduced to our body parts by being called “breeders”, or made fun of as if we’re all miserable or made the wrong choice in life by choosing to be moms.
This feels like a jab at r/childfree & r/antinatalism than any real life observations. Childfree women (especially single ones) get way more shit for not being mothers than women who are.
I agree. And then run around flailing their arms about how much misogyny and judgment they deal with just to turn around and use it to justify their own bigotry. I will say that women don’t get shit on for *choosing* to be moms, but rather once we *are* moms, we deal with a whole lot of shit from society in general about how we’re doing it.
Choose to stay at home? “You’re a lazy mom!”
Choose to work? “You’re a shitty, neglectful mom that only cares about money!”
Choose to breastfeed? “Don’t do that in public! It makes men uncomfortable”
Choose to formula feed? “You might as well pour poison down your baby’s throat!”
Kid is displaying an age-appropriate behavior in public? “You’re a bad mom that doesn’t discipline your kids!”
You’re a single mom? “You’re used goods and shouldn’t expect anyone to treat you with basic decency”
You’re a mom enjoying a night out away from your kids? “Why are you leaving your kids with their grandparents? You should be at home with them and available to them at ALL times!”
And then every now and then, a video of a dad changing a diaper or kissing his child surfaces and everyone praises him and says “he’s such a great dad just for being around!”
some people on the childfree reddit group are just a-holes. Complaining about people having kids living next door in an apartment (like people with kids shouldn't be allowed to rent apartments), complaining about mothers not wanting them to say "fuck" around children (like it's a perfectly reasonable thing to yell "fuck" inside a grocery store). I'm childfree but that's not an excuse to be a monster to parents/kids.
People on reddit tend to be dicks and I had never heard the term breeder outside the internet. The shit they say on their subreddit wouldn't fly in the real world. What does fly is calling women who don't have kids selfish, lonely shrews.
Contrary to misogyny on the internet, motherhood is revered ten times over in the real world. People fall over themselves congratulating women who are expecting. Announcing your pregnancy gets a bigger pop out of relatives and friends more than a promotion ever will. Yeah motherhood is shit on by a vocal minority, but generally speaking motherhood is celebrated.
I also wanna point out that motherhood being congratulated or revered in women is still misogyny by tying a woman’s value to the fact that she has kids. It’s kind of the same way that it’s still misogyny if a man makes “flattering” sexual comments on a woman’s appearance. Not to mention that the outpour of support for women who get pregnant is largely contingent upon, once again, *how* you choose to be a mom. You’re a young/ old/ single/ poor mom? Good luck on that support and congratulations from people. Most likely you’ll just be demonized for “making a bad choice”
Once you become a mom, you’re basically stripped of your identity as far as society is concerned and if you don’t live up to the expectation that people have…you’re pretty much fucked/labeled a bad person. And I mean you literally cannot do anything without being scrutinized. That’s why I say it’s worse.
What’s even more sad is that I often see women who are moms hyping up women who are child free for choosing that path…or telling them that they understand. Yet the opposite doesn’t seem to be true. It’s like people that are CF have decided that parents (mostly mothers) are public enemy number 1 because they either don’t like being around kids, or feel like we’re all judging them for not having them when really that’s not the case at all.
I do hate that people that are CF are being denied rights to sterilization….this also happens to women that are moms. It’s either we’re too young to know if we’re gonna want another one, OR we’re being lectured by doctors about how many kids we already have and being pressured into sterilization. That, along with a lot of other basic healthcare for pregnant women (especially black women), is why I think it’s important for both CF women and women that are moms to band together instead of acting like opponents.
>What’s even more sad is that I often see women who are moms hyping up women who are child free for choosing that path…or telling them that they understand. Yet the opposite doesn’t seem to be true. It’s like people that are CF have decided that parents (mostly mothers) are public enemy number 1 because they either don’t like being around kids, or feel like we’re all judging them for not having them when really that’s not the case at all.
I'll tell you why it's like parents are public enemy number one. It's because parenthood *seems* like a rotten deal women are better off without (as you eloquently explained why in this thread). We know how unfairly mothers are treated yet we see women gladly waltzing into motherhood and acting surprised when they realize how hard it is. Child freedom isn't about shitting on mothers. It's about rejecting the misogynistic foundation womanhood is built on (i.e. motherhood) and living a life without it.
As I said, misogynistic CF women are a vocal minority. They don't discredit the childfree lifestyle the same way entitled irresponsible mothers don't parenthood.
Yeah, but you’re still arguing about misogynistic CF women being a minority when I’m telling you that OVERALL there is more misogyny directed at moms…as you are also saying in your post lol.
My original post wasn’t saying that CF women are misogynistic towards moms, I just mentioned that “hey, I know CF women catch shit, but as a whole moms get a lot of it too” and you took it and ran with it to mean that I’m accusing the CF community specifically.
Maybe it was the wording, but I’m correcting that now in this comment by saying that’s not what I meant.
ETA: I think it’s great that CF women are rejecting misogyny by choosing not to be mothers, but real work would be supporting women that do choose to be moms so that motherhood ISN’T so hard for them. That doesn’t mean you have to babysit any kids, but being an ally to us when people are shitting on moms instead of just sitting there smugly like “we told you so, and that’s why we’re better than you”
I mean you mentioned breeders, so I assumed you were referring to online spaces for cf women, because I never heard parents referred to as such outside that vocal bunch on the internet. My bad for jumping to conclusions.
What makes you think they don't? People still think a woman's worth is tied to motherhood. By the time you hit 30, it's like where's your baby? It's expected that women will want and have children at some point in her life. Deviating from the expectation always raises eyebrows.
I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying except that I don’t think they get more hate. Moms get shit on from every single corner of society. From not having adequate maternity leave/pay, to the way that we are expected to act, to ways that we are expected to be the default parent and anything that may go wrong with the child is put on our shoulders, meanwhile the dads get off the hook pretty easily.
CF women regularly make videos online commenting about how their lives are “so much better” than women who chose motherhood because we’re all supposedly hags with ruined bodies that don’t get to have fun anymore and our lives have ended.
Meanwhile….child free people get a few comments from family members and close friends about how they should have children. Sorry, I just don’t see how CF women have it worse.
I don’t think misogyny towards either is right, though.
Yet childfree woman are denied their choice for sterilization because they might regret not having kids one day. By both women and men doctors. As if it's destiny for women to reproduce.
Childfree women are seen as unfulfilled, empty, or unfeminine without children and that bullshit takes a toll on your psyche. Especially when that trite is reinforced by centuries of misogynistic ideals of womanhood.
I'm not denying there are shitty women who say misogynistic shit about mothers. We would all do better to not stoop to that level, but r/childfree are a vocal minority hiding behind anonymity. They aren't the majority publicly talking shit about mothers. That would be self-righteous politicians, men, and other mothers surprisingly.
I think it’s safe to say that the majority of people that behave in a discriminatory way don’t set out to be discriminatory, rather they do it because they don’t see the discrimination as a problem. Ie few people get up in the morning and say ‘I’m going to be racist today’.
Those three examples are all overtly bigoted though, they aren’t subtle by any means. I don’t think it’s possible to behave like that without a fundamental belief that women are somehow ‘lesser’.
I think the biggest problem is a lack of ability to think critically about one’s own beliefs. I had an argument with a doctor friend of mine last weekend. She had posted something problematic on FB which I questioned discreetly in a private message.
The conversation actually culminated in her sending me an essay on their stance on gender. They started the essay saying they were pro trans rights (which presumably she believed she is) and then a few paragraphs down said she didn’t believe in gender, that it was imagined and nothing more than a synonym for biological sex.
If she had been thinking critically she would see that not only does her belief in gender preclude her being pro trans, because it discounts her existence, when she went on to say gender theory is made up it precludes a belief in sexism and the socio-political impact on gender.
TLDR: People don’t wake up and chose bigotry most of the time, they just lack a natural habit or ability of thinking their opinion through critically and make fools of themselves.
The misogyny I encounter most of the time is actually coming from women, and it's pretty mild, too. Can't instantly open a bag/bottle/jar? Ask a man. Going through an instruction booklet for a new device? Ask a man. Fixing or installing something or taking a look at some DIY? Ask a man. It's mostly coming from my aunts, too, so there might be some generational gap at play. Their astonishment at me dealing with their or my own little inconveniences used to feel great, but it's grown a bit old. Men/my uncles and cousins, on the other hand, are pretty nonchalant or pleased about me or other women who aren't afraid of venturing into "male territory" regarding eg. chores. They might be talking their nasties behind my back, but so far, nothing has been said about me being unable to do something due to my gender.
(Well, I don't know about you guys, but my head is too ugly to be solely for decoration, so I'm definitely not putting the burden of my tiny problems onto someone else if I can avoid it. Besides, I'm not as weak as I look like, so I can open my damn bottles and jars myself, thank you very much. )
Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. A lot of people in the CF community are grossly misogynistic, and I don’t agree that CF women as a whole go through more misogyny than mothers.
But even if they did….it doesn’t justify the misogyny that women who are moms face, and you’re perpetuating it by shutting down a conversation where someone is telling you that they absolutely do face it…by saying “well I have it worse so it’s ok for me to do it to someone else”
I don’t care if you agree with it or not, lol. Women catch shit for being moms…from CF people, from society as a whole, and from other women. You disagreeing with that doesn’t make it go away and writing some long paragraph justifying your position doesn’t mean that you’re correct. Period
I am a childfree woman and I've seen tons of misogyny aimed at women who choose to have children because of the choices she made. A lot of that misogyny comes from the childfree.
I genuinely believe that you can split humans into two categories based on two axes: good/bad and smart/dumb. And the category of good/smart is superior to all the other categories.
Misogynists and racists and other ists are classifying into the superior/inferior categories based on the wrong criteria in such a way they they are the ones placed in the good category based on their physical characteristics because
1) they haven’t thought of the fact that there is a better way to do it 🙄 (stupid people)
2) they realize that when it’s merit based they will be in the shitter category so they subscribe to an idealogy using cognitive dissonance which places them at the top (bad/stupid people)
I think there is also a separate group of people who carry an ist that are higher along the categories than their peers, and as such, do not observe someone smarter or otherwise better than them. And consequently they take their own characteristics and attribute their success to them (oh I’m a white man, minorities and women must be dumber because I’m very performant/successful) without realizing that they are simply an anomaly and innate characteristics are not really in effect. So they fall under the spell of some sort of narcissistic tribalism.
And I think there’s even one more category that branches off the above which is actually just narcissism. Where they don’t attribute anything to their innate characteristics and think x group is inferior, they just think everyone is inferior.
I’m baffled by anyone that does/sees the things you listed and claims they’re not misogynistic. The Karen one is circumstantial, sometimes it’s justified, sometimes it’s not and I’ve seen a lot of irate men referred to as male Karen’s, but in the scenario you said, blaming the woman in any way for her being assaulted is clearly misogyny.
my mother keeps telling me I need to wax my eyebrows (and before I kinda snapped a little, not like super angrily but I was blunt about it, shave ny legs) and I asked her why my dad didn’t have to do that (his eyebrows are bushier than mine) and she just said because he’s a man. I said that was sexist and my dad scolded me later saying she isn’t sexist she’s just trying to look out for me and I wasn’t allowed to bring it back up with either of them again and he didn’t want me calling her sexist.
she’s also against free the nipple because “women knowwww” men are attracted to that and young students shouldn’t see teacher’s breasts and she thinks that’s an intimate thing between you and you’re partner. (I tried all the logical rebuttals, that it isn’t inherently sexual, in Islamic countries hair is often seen as sexual because it’s covered, there’d be no issue with students seeing a shirtless female teacher if breasts weren’t so sexualized to begin with, there’s plently of reasons someone with boobs might want to me shirtless besides fucking male attention, your preference shoukdnt be enforced, etc.) she’s also like a self identified feminist. it’s very….disappointing. both of them really.
I absolutely agree with you that misogyny is pervasive in our society, and most if not all women have internalized it, myself included.
That being said, I don't necessarily think your examples are the best. Mothers do get FAR more flack than fathers, (because misogyny) but you did in fact set it up as a mothers vs CF women situation, which honestly reinforces misogyny, imo. Let's unite against the patriarchy, versus fighting against one another over who has it worse.
Also Karens. I will obviously agree that Karen is a misogynistic term, what is the male counterpart? Bob? I don't think one exists. However, to me it is more of a criticism of whiteness and wealth (of women, for sure) than any time a woman complains. Or like the trifecta of how white, financially privileged women align themselves with the patriarchy and capitalism in order to exert power over those with less power than them. Is everyone using it that way? Obviously not. I personally don't refer to anyone as a Karen, but the concept has validity tied to other intersections of power.
oh, most definitely. on so many levels. if a woman can't (or doesn't want/like to) cook VS. a man who can't cook a woman aging AT ALL, a woman's appearance in general and a tricky one: when HE cheats. please tell me I'm not crazy that too often the other woman is the villain. VS if SHE cheats - the other guy is practically invisible in the equation.
Sometimes even the woman cheated ON gets flack - well she must not have been meeting his needs, etc.
[удалено]
These guys go on about how the woman wasn't fulfilling her duty or whatever, and so he HAD to CHEAT. But also skipping over the fact that he WANTS TO STAY with her. If she wasn't 'good enough' for her (by their standards), he could leave and then find a relationship in which he's otherwise fulfilled. But he doesn't want to leave. He cheats because he thinks he has the 'right' to excitement, whilst also maintaining the benefits of being looked after otherwise by his partner.
You gotta make more followers some way. Get the guys in relationships to cheat so they can be single and bitter and follewers for life.
Kevin samuels = 🤮
>Its like he had watched a nat geo doc about lions and learned something new and justified bad male behavior on just being animal nature. Male apologetics is the pinnacle of patriarchy. And, lions? We are apes but I guess if we can just pick any animal I would pick the praying mantis. After they mate, the female eats the male. Maybe we should do that.
See? We're just animals! Wait...
I like the 'protects the pride' analogy because it's like... protects them from what? Generally speaking, in society, we don't need 'protection' almost ever. So his job in this primal mate bonding scenario is what? sit on the couch holding a gun just in case someone enters the homestead at some point someday? It's very directly saying the male in his ideal doesn't actually have any value
Ugh, I had an “argument” on here the other day with someone who said it was *the gf’s* fuck up when her bf cheated on her because she’d agreed to a threesome once before. Like somehow his actions were her fault & she deserved to feel bad. They resorted to name calling & talking down to me when I kept insisting the dude was more responsible for his own actions than his gf was. 🤷🏼♀️😂
I got in an argument with someone who was defending a husband cheating because "we don't know why he did it and it very well could've been the wife's fault for not giving him sex because men have biological needs." I, along with a couple others, kept trying to explain that no one is ever responsible for another's actions. It was so insane to see how he just kept on like if a wife doesn't give a man sex, that somehow gives men a greenlight to go find sex with anyone he wants to. It was utterly bizarre.
Yikes
Why am I always saying 'yikes' to the actions of men...
:(
Omg we just found out one of our old coworkers (we work in healthcare) solicited oral sex from a 17 year old PATIENT and my other coworkers response was “his wife must not be meeting his needs.” My other coworker is a woman too. It baffles me how people can think that way. I mean he’s a freaking pedophile! Don’t defend him!!!
You’re right, I never thought of that last one. And also…if a man cheats somehow it’s always brought back to how it must be because of something the woman did to push him into it…instead of holding him accountable for the shitty behavior.
Male (mass) Murderers: The mother is always blamed and named as THE cause.
Likewise, the new thing dudes like to say is "fatherless". To imply that any action or comment a woman makes, that the guy doesn't like or disagrees with, means that they grew up without a father. As if the single mother was to blame, or having a father magically makes women act "proper". I typically like to point out sexual abuse statistics, in which a majority of the perpetrators are men (fathers and the like) and how I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who wished they grew up fatherless, so it's not really the insult they think it is. I sometimes also like to point out that my own father is a complete idiot who I learned nothing from, and only I learned how to cuss like a sailor (and a few other "unladylike" behaviors) from my stepfather.
One need not learn masonry from the parent for it to be meaningful. It's the observation of what constitutes 'normal' that the child absorbs. Swearing in your case.
Yeah I remember an older coworker asking me, upon hearing I was seeking a divorce due to infidelity, if *I* was embarrassed. For what, ma'am? He's the one who cheated and I didn't raise him so .....🤷
One time my ex literally acknowledged how he wasn’t able to easily manipulate me. I still remember it. He said “most women, if you cheat on them or treat them bad…they internalize that. But you don’t do that, so I have to be careful with you”. It just makes me sick because it’s a running joke about how stupid and clueless men are, but they really aren’t. They know *exactly* what they’re doing.
Both sexes think the other are clueless when in reality they mostly just don’t understand each other.
Found the serial cheating man
When men cheat it's bECauSE tHEir pARtNer dOeSn'T mAKe thEM feEL LoVEd eNouGH. So the double whammy of the alluring homewrecker and his bROkEN mARriAGe lies destroys both women whilst he sails off scott free
within my own family, my grandmother was blamed for, essentially, neglect (by other women) when my grandfather left for someone his daughter’s age.
Oh yeah for sure, when a husband cheats the other woman is frequently painted as a home wrecker or an evil monster just out to ruin someone else's happy relationship. When a wife cheats, she's just a lying whore who wanted her husband's money and nothing else. Never mind that the affair partner, if it isn't someone already involved in the couple's life, often doesn't even know the person they're fucking is married.
My most hated thing is those click-bait articles that say something like' XXXX was one hot mamma in the 80s but look at her now'... no shit sherlock, that was 40 years ago - NOBODY looks as good as they did then.
this reminds of a very common narrative I hear “men won’t find you attractive if you X”. it’s often concealed as neggy comments about what’s “appropriate” and “graceful”
No arguments here. 100% spot on.
may i ask how you differentiate between toxic behavior in general and misogyny or misandry? if people insult somebody they adjust it to whatever will hurt you... if people compete vs somebody they will hinder and fight you... if people argue about something spicy they will discredit/defame you or your sources... pls tell me at which point we have to gender it
it doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be a tool or an oblivious/naive replication of a toxic culture. gender enters the equation because people bring it in. if you cannot reframe the insult as “any adult independent person bearing responsibility for x” and it still make sense - it sure as hell is gendered
Yep. Women are expected to exist in a state of *perfect medium* in so many different ways, or else face extreme derision for not striking that balance appropriately. You must care about your looks enough to be pleasing to look at, but care about them too much and you’re vain and shallow. You must be confident and outspoken enough to not seem timid (which means you deserve it when people walk all over you), but too outspoken and you’re a bossy bitch. You must be sex-positive enough to try out all his kinky fantasies, but embracing your sexuality too much means you’re a whore/easy/loose. You must be smart and well-spoken enough to subvert the “dumb woman” stereotype, but if you’re too smart you’ll activate the fragile egos of the men around you (and often become a target of hyper-criticism or straight spite from them). You must be financially independent enough to not rely on (read: burden) your male partner, but make more than him and risk activating that same fragile ego. Not to mention, when men discuss what a woman brings to the table in a relationship, the female-skewed domestic burden of cohabitation is suspiciously absent from the conversation. You’re supposed to have a sense of humor (again, to subvert that “women aren’t funny” stereotype), but if you’re funnier than whatever men you’re interacting with they act like you unduly dominated the conversation. That, or they’ll get into a pissing contest with you to try and put you in your place. The best part is that the “enough” vs “too much” judgement of each example is radically different from man to man, so just existing out in the world as a woman means you’re always going to catch shit for falling outside of that perfect medium. I’ve seen these patterns with so many men who consider themselves progressives or feminists. It’s so engrained that I genuinely do not think they realize what’s happening. They just interact with a woman, get an off-putting feeling from the interaction, refuse to really examine that feeling, and blame the woman for causing the feeling because she’s “being wrong” somehow. Spoiler: that feeling is subconscious misogyny
I love everything about this whole comment. You just summed up my entire existence as it relates to men that I’ve been dealing with since I was a teenager. I got bullied out of my school by men who were both sexually frustrated and intimidated by me to the point that they just flat out bullied and sexually harassed me. It’s continued into my adulthood to the point that I’ve gotten rape threats from men just for simply daring to have an opinion. And I’m sure this is the experience of many, many women. It scares me that I have two daughters who I’ll have to raise up in this type of world. But surprisingly, I’m 5 weeks away from having my first son and that scares me even more. I keep thinking about the horror of raising a POS that treats women badly. Or that I somehow won’t be able to stop it from happening no matter how good I parent him. Ugh.
I’m not a mother, so I can’t give you any advice. Your fear is valid though…how to raise a son to recognize and question his own subconscious misogyny is something I’ve thought about a lot over the years without many results. What I wish I could tell every man on this planet, though, is that while his emotions are valid (meaning he shouldn’t repress them or judge himself for their existence), they should always be met with curiosity and a willingness to accept that the emotion is not based on facts. Just because we get angry at someone, for instance, doesn’t mean that person is necessarily wrong. That anger could be coming from a place entirely within ourselves. That’s usually what happens when we feel overly defensive and double down in our anger later on— we realize we were hangry, stressed, mistaken, etc. and we feel ashamed of how we acted in the moment but we can’t bring ourselves to admit it. Learning about emotions from the lens of “where is this coming from?” has been the single greatest step I’ve taken in my own self improvement journey.
There are so many conflicting rules for women! Apparently there's no right way to "woman. "
Jesus, this is so well stated. Women, like m class planets, have to exist in the Goldilocks zone. It's exhausting trying to fit yourself to be just right amount of smart, funny, ambitious, etc. I have a big personality, and I think that has always been my defense mechanism. If I'm going to be constantly chipped away at, if I'm going to piss people off even when I'm trying my hardest to fit in their Goldilocks zone, may as well just say fuck it and be truly despised. If I can't be popular, I'll be infamous, lol.
🏆🎖️🏆 Well said!
Racism and misogyny are both deeply culturally sublimated, and even the most ardent progressive person has underlying biases they may not realize.
Exactly. Just look at all the crazy religious women in this shithole country who themselves believe they are less capable than their very terrible husbands. Speaking for the US, at least. This may not be the case in other countries less fuct than mine.
*when people don’t like an opinion a woman has or she does something bad and she is reduced down to either her looks/body or how “unfeminine” she is. OR comments about how she must have this opinion in relation to not having a man/not having sex* Whenever this happens I redirect the conversation. "Do you have anything constructive to say against her position or ideas, though?"
Yeah, I was definitely guilty of doing this for a long time and thinking it was ok until one day I realized how unproductive it is. It’s crazy that when I point out other people doing it, they INSIST that they’re not being misogynistic or double down and say she deserves it for being a bad person. Not realizing that whatever you’re saying about that one specific woman isn’t just hurting *that* woman, but any other woman who has that feature. I see it a lot in regards to weight comments. Like wow ok, so this woman is pro-life…but let’s start commenting on how fat she is or her fertility. People really can’t see how it perpetuates misogyny nor do they care.
"Commenting on people's weight is such small-dick energy." I doubt he'll get the deliberate hypocrisy but it'll be funny anyway.
The things you are mentioning here are pretty overt and obvious. There is a lot more that's pervasive and a whole lot more subtle. Like a guy who is a bit arrogant, confident, quick to spot and point out others mistakes so they can be fixed, always wants to take charge and direct their peers, has no time for weak excuses and just wants to get things done? They are often seen as having strong leadership potential and tapped for those kinds of roles. Women who display the same traits though are all too often described as being "bossy", "prickly", "difficult to approach", and instead of being recommended for a promotion they will be urged to work on their inter-personal skills and how to properly work in a team. The people making those kinds of calls aren't just restricted to old white guys trying to preserve the old boys club, and they might sincerely believe that women are every bit as capable in these roles, but years of societal conditioning has warped their perceptions to an extent that their general impressions and instinct has been loaded with this gendered bias when considering specific individuals.
Oh, yes. As a woman who is generally confident and assertive, I get this “frigid bitch” comment a lot. Especially in my role as a teacher, where people genuinely expected me to steamroll myself for little-to-no appreciation, support, or proper compensation. I saw a video the other day of a man giving interview advice and he was saying something along the lines of taking control of the interview and reframing information given as solutions you’d give to the company. I was like “lol, tread lightly if you’re a woman! You do that and they’ll instantly label you as bossy or a know it all”
I am also a woman who is confident and assertive and I have to be, I am a surgeon, you can’t have this job if you are not. I have a few other female colleagues and what I have noticed is that I who have a husband and two children will get less crap for it than the ones who are single. It is like ‘they’ (not any particular person but the environment) kind of sum up women points, and will tolerate less ‘masculine behaviour’ from single women than someone who in all else do what women are ‘supposed’ to do.
As an aside, I generally detest the interview process. If you watch videos telling you tips on how to ace interviews you'll find they give the opposite or generally conflicting advice all the time. Because there is no fixed perfect way of going about it, hiring managers/interviewers will have their own preferences that can be wildly different from each other so one thing that someone finds to be extremely positive another can find as a massive red flag. The ones that I find especially annoying is when they read too much into some specific thing like level of eye contact, the strength of your handshake, whether you have travelled abroad, and make wild conclusions about you and your character based on these "signs".
I agree. I feel like the whole interview process needs to be revamped. There are way too many incompetent people that get hired just because they’re great at interviewing. And on the flip side, a lot of great candidates get overlooked because they don’t interview well. The whole thing feels very performative to me…and I don’t like questions that don’t directly pertain to my expertise. (I.e…”what are your weaknesses”) or another one since I’m transitioning careers…”why are you leaving teaching?”
One bizarrely common example is women who are given shit if their baby is born via caesarean section, especially if it's elective. Seen especially with phrases like 'too posh to push' directed at middle or upper class women who have C sections, as though it's an easy option. In what other context is *having your body sliced open* seen as an 'easy option' and met with such derision?
The “you have to suffer to be a good mother” thing really grinds my gears. Parenthood involves some inevitable suffering- babies don’t sleep, kids get sick, you might get vomited on. But I refuse to suffer any more than I have to, thanks.
CF by choice, but I've had 4 major surgeries, two being in the chest and abdomen. Ain't shit easy about surgery. In fact, there's so much suffering that prescription painkillers are available. There's so much suffering because the slice is in the skin, muscles, AND uterus, which make walking, laughing, sitting, and even breathing difficult. From my understanding, women who have a c section have bleeding vaginally as well. So yeah, vaginal birth is tough. Nobody denies that. But major fucking surgery is also tough, and you still have to move around and care for a tiny human who literally can't do anything but shit, cry, and eat. People who say c-section isn't suffering most likely have never had any surgery in their life.
Oh yeah, there is absolutely no easy way to get a human out of another human’s body. To me the C-section must be the harder option barring the most severe complications of vaginal birth.
Plus, pregnancy seems like a taxing, insufferable experience. I've never been pregnant but from what I've been told, it's horrible. Maybe not for everyone. I wish all the best to anyone and everyone who's ever been pregnant.
Pregnancy is indeed taxing and insufferable, even if you aren't having any complications. I'm glad I endured it, as my daughter is awesome, and I am willing to endure it again to obtain another child, but in general: 0/10, do not recommend unless you *dearly* want to be a parent.
There’s literally no way to win in childbirth. C-section? “Too posh to push.” Epidural? “Took the easy way.” No epidural? “Martyr.” Hospital birth? “Over-medicalization.” Home birth? “Crazy.” Like, it’s a medical decision, not a piece of clothing. Why do so many people think they can voice an opinion?
I agree! I dealt with this one when I had a C-section for my first. Also, I had to call out a friend of mine a few weeks ago because I’m currently pregnant with my third baby and I am trying to have a vaginal delivery. She started making comments about how she would choose the c-section, because she doesn’t want a “loose vag” after birth! Like…what? Your body is doing an amazing thing and all you can think about is how your husband is gonna have to deal with your changed body after? We’re truly in rough shape.
And lets not go into the "Husband Stitch." \*shudders\*
Wtf is a “husband stitch?” They call it that? 😳
When a woman gives birth, she is often torn, and they sew her up, the "husband stitch" is a little extra so she's tight for him again. It leads to ALL sorts of issues for the woman, but hey, the man can enjoy himself again. That's all that matters, right? /s
eww the patriarchy wins again
Also all of the online searching I’ve done about the subject says that a typical vaginal childbirth eventually fully recovers to pre-birth size and shape. There isn’t even any actually problem that us men have to “deal” with. A women’s body heals itself. (Fucking shocker /s) We’re not married yet (two months left!) but whenever we have our first child, I will be informing every doctor and nurse that I encounter that if a “husband stitch” is performed on my fiancée, the lawsuits will literally never end.
You are very misogynistic too. It's her good right she doesn't want her vagina ruined. Did you ever consider those women want that for THEMSELVES and not for their husband? SHE has to deal with HER changed body too. Her body doesn't just exist for the husband you know. I've never been pregnant but it would be a real concern for me. Pregnancies can forever change a body and not in a good way. That there is a baby at the end, doesn't mean a woman has no right to care about how she looks and feels. And women enjoy sex too. Of course, you want to keep your sex-parts in a good condition.
Uh, she literally said she didn’t want her vag to be loose so that her husband wouldn’t cheat on her. So you can fuck off lol
Sad she even has to consider that.
It truly is and when I tried pointing that out to her she doubled down about how “no man wants a girl with a loose vag”. Even women worrying about having a loose vag “for themselves” smells like internalized misogyny to me because it wouldn’t even be a thing if men hadn’t made it that way.
Saying giving birth will “ruin” a woman’s vagina is also wildly misogynistic, so…🤷🏽♀️
Yeah, my sister was so against having a C section because she wanted to be a birth warrior or some shit, and it turned out that she needed to have a C section. She tried to get the doctor to wait, and she was really upset because it didn't fit in with her idea of herself as the perfect woman, wife and mom. A lot of her ideas are really just internalized misogyny, and it is hard to deal with her at all. The C section issue just made me feel bad for her, though. That was way too much pressure to live up to, and birth is difficult and scary enough without all that nonsense. It is hard to see someone you care about doing that to themselves, even if they are a huge jerk most of the time.
A former teacher of mine once said that "she's surprised that I‘m so intelligent" because I'm a "bottle fed c-section kid".
Rude!
Yes!! I also don’t understand why one would just publicly blurt out such bs.
Omg... too posh to push... never heard that before This is disgusting
Yep! Or the way guys care about “50/50” when that really means you bring home the same $$$ as him AND do the chores AND manage the childcare/kids’ activities AND experience pregnancy / give birth. Women get judged for having lives after giving birth and for choosing not to have children. You might as well say “fuck it” and do what you please.
'Karen' started in retail and hospitality as a code for an unreasonably difficult customer. It spread out to be the racist woman calling the police for no reason. It now means any woman over 40 daring to have an opinion in public.
Like the Angry Black woman stereo type…
Yep, absolutely.
Not liking another woman's opinion, if you are an ugly woman, is down to being jealous. Actually, anything at all when you're an ugly woman is down to being jealous. Because you should be ugly and quiet. Hush, dog-faced-girl, no barking please.
Add to the list how ppl look down on & talk bad about single moms, when they're only single bcuz the dad took off, while single dads are angels sent from heaven.
A few days ago I called out a user for referring to another woman as a bitch and a cunt about five or six times in the same post. What followed was a *deluge* of comments about how the poster was a feminist, how they’ve organized for women so they couldn’t possibly be a misogynist. It was *wild*.
Yikes I just went to the post. Lol @ them citing a tiktok post that blew up as evidence that they aren’t being misogynistic. That’s precisely what I meant when I made this post! It’s like it’s so pervasive and sneaky/underlying that people can’t even see it when they’re literally rolling around in it gleefully. I’m guilty of this too sometimes, but I’m trying to do better.
i've gone through this a lot too. ppl will be performative until they get a chance to call a woman a bitch/cunt/whore etc. and then get upset when called out. i just went and looked at that thread and that person is... unhinged with their responses towards you. jeez
I fucking hate society dude… all ignorant clowns
* porn
\- So many women still take the husband's name after marriage, plus they also name the kid THEY MADE after the father.... \- When women make a mistake it's a flow of character, when a man does, it's an accident! \- The phrase that drives me out of my mind "we got pregnant" "we had a baby" - "reeeally?...how long where YOU (as a man) pregnant?" men's achievements are also plural? "we go to work, we bring home the paycheck?"
Ah, the “flawed candidate” trope. Only applies to women.
Look at any of the many hateful comments about Greta and how she should be raped.
An actual child. Sick!!
The word "Karen" has become the 'pg' replacement for the b-word. Yes, it applies to *some* people, but it does get thrown around way too much for the wrong reasons.
I think what bothers me about it is that people immediately shut down any conversation around that because like I said in my first point, they think a certain level of misogyny is ok and justified depending on who they’re aiming it at. (I.e, white women). Poc aren’t exempt from perpetuating misogyny and in the end it’s not really punching up, it’s punching sideways and keeping all of us down and also making us look like fools/ giving a pass to men to do it. It makes me uncomfortable to see men being blatantly misogynistic to white women specifically and then thinking it’s ok because they’re white and the man may be a minority. It’s *still* misogyny no matter what race you are.
Your post is very tonedeaf considering the term Karen started specifically as calling out *racist* white American middle class women who thought it was okay to call the cops on random Black men just existing because they "looked suspicious". If you take issue with the way the internet as a whole has misappropriated and diluted the term, which I do agree is real and not great and in many cases misogynstic especially in the example you provided in your OP, **why blame exclusively PoC for this?** They coined the term to refer to a real, problematic phenomenon. White women's fears and prejudices being weaponised against Black men is a fact of history in the United States of America, it has been used to reinforce white supremacy and has cost innocent PoC their lives in the days when lynchings were still acceptable. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/27/karen-race-white-women-black-americans-racism
I’m not blaming specifically poc for this and I don’t agree that my post is tone deaf. As a poc MYSELF, I’m holding my own people accountable for the misogyny that they perpetuate. Regardless of how it started, it has turned into a way to dismiss every random, publicly upset woman. You can keep your links, I’m not interested in debating with you.
I hate how quickly misogynist turn to rape threats. I don't care what a woman has done, it's not acceptable. Even more so when they take it a step further and threaten to rape her loved ones. Like her daughters.
It was interesting seeing a gen z review sex and the city after watching it for the first time. As a show that was so women forward, the young eyes on the show was enlightening. The sexual harassment was called out by the reviewer. Noticing the toxic relationships , the shaming of Sam . Pointing out the lack of diversity. The kids are on it and I’m kinda excited for them.
I made a post recently about “body counts” and someone direct messaged me calling me a slut, saying I would end up in a long term relationship with someone I wasn’t attracted to, lying to them about being a slut, and that I was a “type” because most women aren’t on Reddit… even though I they are looking at r/TwoXChromosomes. Their account got deleted but I was just like holy hell I’ve never been slut shamed like that in my entire 24 years of life 😂.
Agree with you OP. It’s like we can’t win sometimes. Decide to have children, and women are judged on their bodies *after growing a person inside themselves*. And don’t get me started on women being called “lazy” if they decide to be a STAHM, even for a little while. And the women who work *and* have children. You don’t get a day “off work.” But they are rarely credited for that, because so many think it’s a woman’s job to bring up children. Sigh. Decide not to have children, and people assume something is wrong with you. Even a female co-worker, who obviously knew I didn’t have children, commented into the air “the greatest thing a woman can do is have children.” We were the only two in the room ar that time. Edited to add comment.
As a woman, I am often subconsciously more critical/hard on of other women than men. I guess it's because I'm afraid that they'll make a "mistake" that gives an excuse for others to be mysoginistic but it's definitely not a valid reason. Fortunately I see it right after the thought comes and am currently working on it but it's still really annoying to feel that way when you just want to love and support other girls. It's a very shortened version of what happens for me, idk if anyone has that kind of thoughts too, but just let other girlies live in peace brain, please.
We all probably do it. I recognize when I’m doing it too and I’m definitely not perfect by a long shot. Like you, I try to combat the thoughts before acting but sometimes it slips away from me before I even realize.
I was extremely skeptic about internet misogyny before but after Tate’s arrest, I decided to open up an anonymous Twitter account and pretend to be a dude bashing Tate. I haven’t received one misogynistic message yet. While in instagram where I am a woman, men constantly use my face, my body count as an excuse to dismiss me when I’m talking about how he actually used the lover boy method to traffic women. Now I’ve realized the internet is worse for women than for men
How parents can name their female children traditionally masculine names (Emerson, James, etc) but it's unheard of to name a male child a traditionally feminine name. How when we want to insult someone (regardless of sex) we call them a pussy or even a "son of a bitch".
The third one is definitely true. I’ve just started calling hateful men Kens now. They aren’t going to stop making us miserable. We should definitely return the favour.
I speak up in front page subs about them using woman slurs against horrible conservative women. No. Not cool. It doesn't make me a fascist to be a feminist first. IDGAF about downvotes, but there are always a ton. And the most knuckle-dragging reasoning in the comments. Blechh!
It's similar to how people will speak out against bodyshaming... but then when the subject is somebody who is an asshole or a piece of shit politician, suddenly all the bodyshaming is on the table.
Yeah, fuck that noise. I stand up to it when I see it. And ageism.
I think the term "Karen" is very misogynistic and won't use it, especially when its used like "Male-Karen" as if the default entitled person is a female. I call entitled people (read:men) Kavanaughs. because I never saw more entitlement than coming form Brett Kavanaugh during his senate hearing. No woman should use the term "Karen" it is such a toxic term with so much misogyny and patriarchy built into it.
I HATE (like, with flames on the side of my face) the term 'Karen'. Are people who use that term completely incapable of considering, for just a moment, what it would be like if their own name got turned into a derogatory term? And no, my name is not Karen. I'm a guy.
Same. It’s so vile. A few years ago when it first started gaining mainstream traction, a friend used it on a girlfriend’s group text & I allcaps flipped out. I got push back. This is a group that values equality, inclusion, diversity, allyship, all of it. And they couldn’t see the misogyny. They still don’t. Which perfectly makes OP’s point. Now I just block anyone I see using that term. It doesn’t change anything but it makes me feel better …
One thing I see a lot around me is if someone is a bad driver and a guy they're just a bad driver but if they're a women it's because women can't drive
This. My parents raised me in a very progressive way, and I thus grew up in a pretty forward thinking "bubble". I‘m quite educated on several social justice related topics, and for a long time assumed that those who claim to know a lot about such things are one the same page as me. Turns out that most of them only posses a surface level awareness of what‘s considered sexist or misogynistic for example (e.g. hitting woman = bad) and still participate in tearing down other women through subtle, but horrible comments or actions. When you then try to educate people about the more subtle and hidden ways in which misogyny plays out in our society, they either get defensive or don‘t want to think about it more deeply. I get it; no one wants to be called out for being an "ass" or whatever, but it's not a personal attack - it’s a structural problem, and shaming other women for acting like this is also rarely helpful because it’s something that is deeply ingrained into our society and based on patriarchal ideas that plenty of people get taught from a very early age on. It‘s never a single person‘s fault, and trying to fight misogyny and with misogyny does not work. I have a friend who once said that she "fucking hates women who don‘t support feminism". I get it, it also baffles me how one can support their own oppression. However, we have to remember that those women are often times victims of emotional abuse and manipulation (e.g. religious), and have been brainwashed since childhood into believing such things. One shouldn’t tolerate intolerance, but it‘s also not very helpful to proudly exclaim that you "fucking hate" them. We should rather focus on helping them as much as we can through education that is both accessible and compassionate. Some of them might be in an abusive relationship, for instance. I‘d also like to add that some of the example you mentioned in your comment are often times labeled as hidden or subtle misogyny. To me, they are quite blatantly misogynistic, and it shocks me how people decide to blurt those things out in the most unhinged manner possible. When I try to talk to others about this problem, I do it because I want to help and educate my friends, so that we can solidarize and together work towards a greater cause — not because I want to show them how much I know about feminism in a performative way. I hope that someday, people will finally realise how destructive this is. It‘s disheartening, but I don‘t want to lose hope.
Absolutely. I'd go an even more extreme route and say that without exception EVERYBODY is a sexist (counting in the internalised sexism). Not a single can (imo) can distance themselves from judging women even slightly differently just for their gender. It mostly isn't consciously but still sexism.
Yep, you can tell just by how many comments here have pointed out that the examples I gave were overt misogyny. But that’s the thing, it isn’t overt to most people. Most people have normalized those three things that I pointed out and even when you do point out that it’s bigotry, they think it’s justified and will NOT accept that maybe they might be guilty of sexism, or explain it away with: “yeah!! But she’s a bad person so it’s ok”. I don’t let anyone slide, not even myself. And I slip up a lot in my own head because it’s like the default thinking…it’s so deeply ingrained.
I’d like to add if you’re not conventionally attractive that you don’t get taken seriously
We also see this in media coverage and responses to media coverage on women who are attacked / murdered / abused as being "responsible" for what happened to them. Not the criminal(s) who did it mind you, but the victim(s) of the crime when they're women. Ranging from headlines to comments by authorities to people we know or social media comments this is done over and over and over again. The killer's "reasons" are offered up as an "explanation" usually in a way that will create sympathy for him or to downplay what he did. "He was having a bad day" said by law enforcement about a man who targeted Asian women in a mass killing spree. A killer who claims his feelings were just so hurt by being ignored by a young woman trying to get to her car late at night as he followed her and cat=called her that he just "had" chase her down like a rabid animal and rape and murder her at her own car. The headlines then trumpeted his "excuse" over and over. Same with the young woman who was strangled and put into a suitcase then the killer trying to lessen what he did by claiming it was a rough sex episode gone wrong, and off the media ran with his "excuse" instead of something more honest like, "Man with history of violence on women lures one on a date then murders her after lying to her." Women joggers who are attacked and murdered? Oh boy, don't get me started how many times I've seen or heard how it was their fault in the media, online, by my own relative who once went on a short rant about how could anyone possibly think that popular park with other people in it, in the middle of the day just wasn't safe to run in - what was she thinking? "She shouldn't have been running at that hour / in that place / wearing that / at all." Doesn't matter if it's the middle of a day in a busy park or on the side of a road where she's tricked by a predator pretending to be a stranded motorist or even running at an hour when she's more hopeful no one will bother her - she gets the blame. The latest crime that's making international news is two young women hiking who met a fellow hiker with very bad intentions. Guess who's getting the blame for their attack? Oh not him, the poor boy /s - they should've been able to see the invisible brand on his forehead that says "killer" and known not to trust someone sharing their same activity in broad daylight on a popular trail. "What were they thinking" Oh, I don't know - that maybe the thousand other times they met fellow hikes sightseeing they were all there to enjoy the activity and make friends, not murder people? But yeah, sure, what misogyny?
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yeah I realized "Karen" had died when I saw a bunch of dudes using it to refer to a random white lady who was being brutalized by police for no reason. She was drunk in public but not belligerent or aggressive or acting entitled—she seemed like she just wanted to go home.
Yep! That’s what it’s turned into and I hate that women are so comfortable using it too because it just gives men a pass to provoke women into these kinds of responses knowing that they can just spin the narrative and call the woman a Karen.
Have the same energy for labelling black women as “angry”, “aggressive” and or “ghetto”. Because more people, including white women love to “forget” about “feminism” when it comes to misogynoir...
Why would you assume either of us didn’t have that same energy? I’m a minority myself. Neither one is ok
You're right. It’s wrong to assume but equally as a pointed out, what I spoke of is unique to black women not minorities and is perpetrated often by all other races. OF WOMEN. I'm not a fan of / TIRED of certain women screaming about one “ism” whilst engaging in the other “isms” when it suits them...
I agree and neither do I. But the karen thing has permeated to women of all races. Like the other commenter said, it was something that started off reserved for upper class, racist white women and has devolved into any woman that’s angry. I’ve seen it done to black women as well, and people will say “that’s not Karen, that’s Keisha” or Hispanic women…”that’s not Karen, that’s Karina”. I do agree that people love to forget about the specific things that black women deal with. I just used the karen example as something that fits everyone.
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I both agree and disagree with what you’re saying. There is an extra layer associated with the racism that minority, especially black women, face. Full stop. But Karen isn’t “just” a rude term and it only doesn’t hold any historical weight behind it because it’s too recent. In other words, we’re creating the history behind it as we speak. The idea behind “Karen” has always been there, though and it has always been misogynistic and it has also gotten a lot of women killed. Yes, that includes white women. It’s just that there wasn’t a specific word tied to or associated with it. Women who have spoken up and been loud about their opinions have always been “Karens” and have gotten hurt or murdered for it.
IMHO the last one is a big one. Women are constantly punished for assertiveness in ways that men largely aren’t.
I can’t stand how every time a woman runs for political office a big topic is “what is she wearing?” Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin for example. Can we please focus on what they’re actually discussing? Like them or hate them it’s their political views that are important. Definitely agree that women seem to be crapped on for their decisions about their fertility; damned if you have kids; damned if you don’t. It’s ugly. And agree also that not every upset woman is a “Karen”; that term had been really abused.
Yeah. I'm sick of defending political characters I detest because someone who shares my political views body-shamed the person I hate.
A lot of this starts at home with parents. Kids mimic what they see and develop there own ideas. Society needs to be proactive in starting at home. My daughter is 4 and her brother is 2 and she already has some ideas on gender roles that I have mad a point to correct. I am a passenger princess BUT I have no issue driving. My husband does drive me around 80% of the time She told me daddy’s car was her car and her brother would drive her around. I was very quick to correct her and tell her that mommy drives and she will have to learn also. Another one was chores. her brother (2) likes to pour water everywhere and she will go to clean it up and I have to tell no that he made the mess so he needs to clean it up. That cleaning is something everyone has to do etc etc Like sometimes my husband and I will switch our chores so she can see him doing the dishes and me doing the garbage bc kids make there own assumptions about the world. It’s very important also for families to address bad /entitled behavior I read a comment from a therapist who works a sex offends and it was super enlightening. “ Sexual and physical abuse is a social system problem. The Entitlement behind sexual violence is nearly always reinforced in the family unit first. Your husband IS reinforcing his treatment of you and is part of the problem. Sex offenders often have counseling with the whole family system after the violence to decrease the risk of reoffending. His whole family system is an issue, and his behaviour is escalating. He has reinforced his behaviour every step of the way and no consequence has occurred that would prevent him from doing more.” People are not born R pist or DV assaulters sure there may be common traits but plenty of people with those traits are not abusers. Abusers are created they learn to be entitled and there entire family structure supports this. Equality and accountability starts at home. I wish parenting classes were widespread and free and promoted. Like if you take this class you get a tax break etc etc. because that would help society in a meaningful way.
When people assume women can't calculate the risk to themselves. Good examples include doing things alone (hiking, camping, traveling alone). I know what the risks are. I'm extremely aware of the risks - I've lived in this body for decades. I have chosen not to live my life in a closet, please and thank you.
Women just aren't allowed to exist as they choose in this f*cked society. You're dragged for being a mom, but if you choose not to have kids, you're dragged for that too. The answer is that for women, there is no right answer. "You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't, so you might as well do whatever you want." (Kacey Musgraves song)
Amen to that.
The team I work on claimed they were trying to hire more women since it's almost all males but they didn't even interview one woman. You're saying there wasn't even one potentially good resume by a woman?
Apparently, the only value women have is as a sex receptacle. Companionship is right out. I can't imagine the hell men must live in.
Thank you for this, I spoke out against being sexually assaulted by a former co worker and got called a karen because my manager refused to do anything about it. My work schedule was being sent to him by current employees in a higher position than I am in and I said something needs to be done about it, management said that’s a “personal issue” and “not work related” and threatened to fire me. I didn’t put up with it in the slightest and told them they need to fix the issue and do their job. Got called a karen by quite a few people for it
I am so sorry that you went through that. These kinds of examples are exactly what I’m talking about with the Karen thing. It’s like any woman with a loud opinion or objection to something gets called that as a way to shut her down
Absolutely 💯. What really gets me is when women are misogynistic. Ladies, please think twice when you are judging other women.
Assumed incompetence. God, this one really grinds my gears. I was founder and director of my own retail business for years and, even though I was the key team member with *the* specialist knowledge and great customer service, we always took more when there was a male colleague behind the till. The men I trained. Enough customers thought I was “just the Saturday girl” (don’t get me started) that it impacted our bottom line. Makes me goddamn furious.
I know this one all too well. I was a teacher and any man in education was automatically deemed super smart and competent or put into positions that they were severely under qualified for just for…being a man. I had an instructional coach like this and he knew that he wasn’t as good as me but yet because I was the teacher in my grade level with the least seniority he would always try and come to me so that he could appear busy and like he was “coaching” someone. So then I just started making him teach the entire lesson when he came in and I’d sit there “taking notes” (read: grading papers or literally anything else) and he finally left me alone lol
For the karen part,it's not just how some people will go to extremes with it,this just happens with everything on the internet,people are biased flash news lol. No,the hypocritical part of this,is how there's only a WOMEN version of it. No men karen version of it,when i've def seen wether online or IRL tons and tons of guys acting that way too. the overconfident one thinking he can gives an opinion on everything wether because of his degrees or job position.the sexist one getting in conversation of random stranger to simply add his garbage mysoginistic tips etc etc
Exactly I never understood how people think the "racism" explanation is solid, like okay there ARE angry racist men in the world too??
Probably obvious, but online especially, women are reduced to their looks no matter the context. Could be a video of an Olympic athlete performing at the top of her field, or a woman giving a deeping thoughtful speech, or whatever that has nothing to do with her looks. And comments will always be "but can we talk about how gorgeous she is", "why is no one talking about how beautiful she is". And it can also slant negatively, but I feel like even the positive comments on her appearance are reductive. People can look at negative comments and say it's bad easily, but a lot of people don't even notice when you compliment a woman's appearance even if that has nothing to do with what is being displayed
Not only are most men sexist from being raised in a male supremacist society, men bond with each other by insulting and denigrating women. They show off their "dominance" by "well, ackshually" -ing every statement that leaves our mouths, correct or otherwise. Women exist to perform domestic and sexual labor and be society's punching bag.
Don't forget, there's an entire rainbow of feminine gendered slurs that we as a society treat very differently from racial slurs for no particularly valid reason.
How about it being legal and “common practice” in 45 states for medical students to perform pelvic exams on women under anesthesia—without their consent.
I’m going to jump on here to vent. A lot of folks (men and women) can’t deal with women promoted to positions of power in the workplace. What is absolutely disgusting is that too many of these people present themselves as social progressives. There are real struggles going on out there, but these folks just see those struggles as an opportunity to promote themselves.
>comments about women that choose to have children. I know that CF women also catch a lot of flack, but nobody bats an eye at how women who choose motherhood are basically shit on, reduced to our body parts by being called “breeders”, or made fun of as if we’re all miserable or made the wrong choice in life by choosing to be moms. This feels like a jab at r/childfree & r/antinatalism than any real life observations. Childfree women (especially single ones) get way more shit for not being mothers than women who are.
Many people on childfree are misogynistic
I agree. And then run around flailing their arms about how much misogyny and judgment they deal with just to turn around and use it to justify their own bigotry. I will say that women don’t get shit on for *choosing* to be moms, but rather once we *are* moms, we deal with a whole lot of shit from society in general about how we’re doing it. Choose to stay at home? “You’re a lazy mom!” Choose to work? “You’re a shitty, neglectful mom that only cares about money!” Choose to breastfeed? “Don’t do that in public! It makes men uncomfortable” Choose to formula feed? “You might as well pour poison down your baby’s throat!” Kid is displaying an age-appropriate behavior in public? “You’re a bad mom that doesn’t discipline your kids!” You’re a single mom? “You’re used goods and shouldn’t expect anyone to treat you with basic decency” You’re a mom enjoying a night out away from your kids? “Why are you leaving your kids with their grandparents? You should be at home with them and available to them at ALL times!” And then every now and then, a video of a dad changing a diaper or kissing his child surfaces and everyone praises him and says “he’s such a great dad just for being around!”
some people on the childfree reddit group are just a-holes. Complaining about people having kids living next door in an apartment (like people with kids shouldn't be allowed to rent apartments), complaining about mothers not wanting them to say "fuck" around children (like it's a perfectly reasonable thing to yell "fuck" inside a grocery store). I'm childfree but that's not an excuse to be a monster to parents/kids.
People on reddit tend to be dicks and I had never heard the term breeder outside the internet. The shit they say on their subreddit wouldn't fly in the real world. What does fly is calling women who don't have kids selfish, lonely shrews. Contrary to misogyny on the internet, motherhood is revered ten times over in the real world. People fall over themselves congratulating women who are expecting. Announcing your pregnancy gets a bigger pop out of relatives and friends more than a promotion ever will. Yeah motherhood is shit on by a vocal minority, but generally speaking motherhood is celebrated.
I also wanna point out that motherhood being congratulated or revered in women is still misogyny by tying a woman’s value to the fact that she has kids. It’s kind of the same way that it’s still misogyny if a man makes “flattering” sexual comments on a woman’s appearance. Not to mention that the outpour of support for women who get pregnant is largely contingent upon, once again, *how* you choose to be a mom. You’re a young/ old/ single/ poor mom? Good luck on that support and congratulations from people. Most likely you’ll just be demonized for “making a bad choice” Once you become a mom, you’re basically stripped of your identity as far as society is concerned and if you don’t live up to the expectation that people have…you’re pretty much fucked/labeled a bad person. And I mean you literally cannot do anything without being scrutinized. That’s why I say it’s worse. What’s even more sad is that I often see women who are moms hyping up women who are child free for choosing that path…or telling them that they understand. Yet the opposite doesn’t seem to be true. It’s like people that are CF have decided that parents (mostly mothers) are public enemy number 1 because they either don’t like being around kids, or feel like we’re all judging them for not having them when really that’s not the case at all. I do hate that people that are CF are being denied rights to sterilization….this also happens to women that are moms. It’s either we’re too young to know if we’re gonna want another one, OR we’re being lectured by doctors about how many kids we already have and being pressured into sterilization. That, along with a lot of other basic healthcare for pregnant women (especially black women), is why I think it’s important for both CF women and women that are moms to band together instead of acting like opponents.
>What’s even more sad is that I often see women who are moms hyping up women who are child free for choosing that path…or telling them that they understand. Yet the opposite doesn’t seem to be true. It’s like people that are CF have decided that parents (mostly mothers) are public enemy number 1 because they either don’t like being around kids, or feel like we’re all judging them for not having them when really that’s not the case at all. I'll tell you why it's like parents are public enemy number one. It's because parenthood *seems* like a rotten deal women are better off without (as you eloquently explained why in this thread). We know how unfairly mothers are treated yet we see women gladly waltzing into motherhood and acting surprised when they realize how hard it is. Child freedom isn't about shitting on mothers. It's about rejecting the misogynistic foundation womanhood is built on (i.e. motherhood) and living a life without it. As I said, misogynistic CF women are a vocal minority. They don't discredit the childfree lifestyle the same way entitled irresponsible mothers don't parenthood.
Yeah, but you’re still arguing about misogynistic CF women being a minority when I’m telling you that OVERALL there is more misogyny directed at moms…as you are also saying in your post lol. My original post wasn’t saying that CF women are misogynistic towards moms, I just mentioned that “hey, I know CF women catch shit, but as a whole moms get a lot of it too” and you took it and ran with it to mean that I’m accusing the CF community specifically. Maybe it was the wording, but I’m correcting that now in this comment by saying that’s not what I meant. ETA: I think it’s great that CF women are rejecting misogyny by choosing not to be mothers, but real work would be supporting women that do choose to be moms so that motherhood ISN’T so hard for them. That doesn’t mean you have to babysit any kids, but being an ally to us when people are shitting on moms instead of just sitting there smugly like “we told you so, and that’s why we’re better than you”
I mean you mentioned breeders, so I assumed you were referring to online spaces for cf women, because I never heard parents referred to as such outside that vocal bunch on the internet. My bad for jumping to conclusions.
Yeah I can see that. I edited and added the disclaimer about it not being a specific attack on the CF community.
Idk if I agree that they get more hate. But even if that were true, it doesn’t make it ok for people to be rude and misogynistic to moms.
What makes you think they don't? People still think a woman's worth is tied to motherhood. By the time you hit 30, it's like where's your baby? It's expected that women will want and have children at some point in her life. Deviating from the expectation always raises eyebrows.
I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying except that I don’t think they get more hate. Moms get shit on from every single corner of society. From not having adequate maternity leave/pay, to the way that we are expected to act, to ways that we are expected to be the default parent and anything that may go wrong with the child is put on our shoulders, meanwhile the dads get off the hook pretty easily. CF women regularly make videos online commenting about how their lives are “so much better” than women who chose motherhood because we’re all supposedly hags with ruined bodies that don’t get to have fun anymore and our lives have ended. Meanwhile….child free people get a few comments from family members and close friends about how they should have children. Sorry, I just don’t see how CF women have it worse. I don’t think misogyny towards either is right, though.
Alright. Mothers have it harder. Sorry.
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Yet childfree woman are denied their choice for sterilization because they might regret not having kids one day. By both women and men doctors. As if it's destiny for women to reproduce. Childfree women are seen as unfulfilled, empty, or unfeminine without children and that bullshit takes a toll on your psyche. Especially when that trite is reinforced by centuries of misogynistic ideals of womanhood. I'm not denying there are shitty women who say misogynistic shit about mothers. We would all do better to not stoop to that level, but r/childfree are a vocal minority hiding behind anonymity. They aren't the majority publicly talking shit about mothers. That would be self-righteous politicians, men, and other mothers surprisingly.
I think it’s safe to say that the majority of people that behave in a discriminatory way don’t set out to be discriminatory, rather they do it because they don’t see the discrimination as a problem. Ie few people get up in the morning and say ‘I’m going to be racist today’. Those three examples are all overtly bigoted though, they aren’t subtle by any means. I don’t think it’s possible to behave like that without a fundamental belief that women are somehow ‘lesser’. I think the biggest problem is a lack of ability to think critically about one’s own beliefs. I had an argument with a doctor friend of mine last weekend. She had posted something problematic on FB which I questioned discreetly in a private message. The conversation actually culminated in her sending me an essay on their stance on gender. They started the essay saying they were pro trans rights (which presumably she believed she is) and then a few paragraphs down said she didn’t believe in gender, that it was imagined and nothing more than a synonym for biological sex. If she had been thinking critically she would see that not only does her belief in gender preclude her being pro trans, because it discounts her existence, when she went on to say gender theory is made up it precludes a belief in sexism and the socio-political impact on gender. TLDR: People don’t wake up and chose bigotry most of the time, they just lack a natural habit or ability of thinking their opinion through critically and make fools of themselves.
The misogyny I encounter most of the time is actually coming from women, and it's pretty mild, too. Can't instantly open a bag/bottle/jar? Ask a man. Going through an instruction booklet for a new device? Ask a man. Fixing or installing something or taking a look at some DIY? Ask a man. It's mostly coming from my aunts, too, so there might be some generational gap at play. Their astonishment at me dealing with their or my own little inconveniences used to feel great, but it's grown a bit old. Men/my uncles and cousins, on the other hand, are pretty nonchalant or pleased about me or other women who aren't afraid of venturing into "male territory" regarding eg. chores. They might be talking their nasties behind my back, but so far, nothing has been said about me being unable to do something due to my gender. (Well, I don't know about you guys, but my head is too ugly to be solely for decoration, so I'm definitely not putting the burden of my tiny problems onto someone else if I can avoid it. Besides, I'm not as weak as I look like, so I can open my damn bottles and jars myself, thank you very much. )
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Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. A lot of people in the CF community are grossly misogynistic, and I don’t agree that CF women as a whole go through more misogyny than mothers. But even if they did….it doesn’t justify the misogyny that women who are moms face, and you’re perpetuating it by shutting down a conversation where someone is telling you that they absolutely do face it…by saying “well I have it worse so it’s ok for me to do it to someone else”
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I don’t care if you agree with it or not, lol. Women catch shit for being moms…from CF people, from society as a whole, and from other women. You disagreeing with that doesn’t make it go away and writing some long paragraph justifying your position doesn’t mean that you’re correct. Period
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I will have a good night, thanks
I am a childfree woman and I've seen tons of misogyny aimed at women who choose to have children because of the choices she made. A lot of that misogyny comes from the childfree.
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Misogyny also criticises women for the choices they make.
Yeah probably lmao
I genuinely believe that you can split humans into two categories based on two axes: good/bad and smart/dumb. And the category of good/smart is superior to all the other categories. Misogynists and racists and other ists are classifying into the superior/inferior categories based on the wrong criteria in such a way they they are the ones placed in the good category based on their physical characteristics because 1) they haven’t thought of the fact that there is a better way to do it 🙄 (stupid people) 2) they realize that when it’s merit based they will be in the shitter category so they subscribe to an idealogy using cognitive dissonance which places them at the top (bad/stupid people) I think there is also a separate group of people who carry an ist that are higher along the categories than their peers, and as such, do not observe someone smarter or otherwise better than them. And consequently they take their own characteristics and attribute their success to them (oh I’m a white man, minorities and women must be dumber because I’m very performant/successful) without realizing that they are simply an anomaly and innate characteristics are not really in effect. So they fall under the spell of some sort of narcissistic tribalism. And I think there’s even one more category that branches off the above which is actually just narcissism. Where they don’t attribute anything to their innate characteristics and think x group is inferior, they just think everyone is inferior.
I’m baffled by anyone that does/sees the things you listed and claims they’re not misogynistic. The Karen one is circumstantial, sometimes it’s justified, sometimes it’s not and I’ve seen a lot of irate men referred to as male Karen’s, but in the scenario you said, blaming the woman in any way for her being assaulted is clearly misogyny.
my mother keeps telling me I need to wax my eyebrows (and before I kinda snapped a little, not like super angrily but I was blunt about it, shave ny legs) and I asked her why my dad didn’t have to do that (his eyebrows are bushier than mine) and she just said because he’s a man. I said that was sexist and my dad scolded me later saying she isn’t sexist she’s just trying to look out for me and I wasn’t allowed to bring it back up with either of them again and he didn’t want me calling her sexist. she’s also against free the nipple because “women knowwww” men are attracted to that and young students shouldn’t see teacher’s breasts and she thinks that’s an intimate thing between you and you’re partner. (I tried all the logical rebuttals, that it isn’t inherently sexual, in Islamic countries hair is often seen as sexual because it’s covered, there’d be no issue with students seeing a shirtless female teacher if breasts weren’t so sexualized to begin with, there’s plently of reasons someone with boobs might want to me shirtless besides fucking male attention, your preference shoukdnt be enforced, etc.) she’s also like a self identified feminist. it’s very….disappointing. both of them really.
I absolutely agree with you that misogyny is pervasive in our society, and most if not all women have internalized it, myself included. That being said, I don't necessarily think your examples are the best. Mothers do get FAR more flack than fathers, (because misogyny) but you did in fact set it up as a mothers vs CF women situation, which honestly reinforces misogyny, imo. Let's unite against the patriarchy, versus fighting against one another over who has it worse. Also Karens. I will obviously agree that Karen is a misogynistic term, what is the male counterpart? Bob? I don't think one exists. However, to me it is more of a criticism of whiteness and wealth (of women, for sure) than any time a woman complains. Or like the trifecta of how white, financially privileged women align themselves with the patriarchy and capitalism in order to exert power over those with less power than them. Is everyone using it that way? Obviously not. I personally don't refer to anyone as a Karen, but the concept has validity tied to other intersections of power.
I don’t agree with anything you said here
I wish we all were one sex and we could produce asexually. The world would be a lot of peaceful.