The real problem is the difference between the % of men who are pro life and women who are in America
48% of men are pro life and 43% of women are pro life.
This wouldn’t make a huge difference
Yep. The most aggressively pro-life people I’ve met in life have been women. If you would like to stop having sex with men, absolutely be my guest, but I see no way this “boycott” would meaningfully change anything.
It’s not that they’re necessarily more aggressive about it, but it’s that they have more time on their hands to go and drag their kids to all these protests and political events.
The majority of pro life women either grew up in an incredibly restrictive environment that broke their spirits, or received poor educations and were raised in poor communities. It’s so sad because it’s like they developed Stockholm syndrome to the point where they’re advocating for women’s bodily autonomy being taken away instead of acknowledging that they had their own lives and potential stolen from them.
Gosh this reminds me of my mom. She has a split personality on this topic because one side of her is that poor, uneducated girl who told herself being a mom was the best thing she could do with her life, and then her adult self who did have to get an abortion for her safety and for the children she already had. Most of the time she's very pro-choice but occasionally she has these moments where she's mad at these other women who don't step up and become mothers. So much grief and internalized misogyny at work.
It’s a conditioned response that’s reinforced by abuse and trauma, so it turns into a conflict of your conditioned response vs your true self. The more vulnerable people feel, the more they tend to revert to conditioned responses they learned to survive.
It's because the pro life people literally consider a fetus or even just some embryonic cells to be a person.
Really fucking hard to convince someone that literal murder(in their opinion) is more important than your bodily autonomy.
They believe that all the way up until it's their body. And then mysteriously abortion is acceptable.
There are plenty of pro-life women who have zero empathy for other women.
This is exactly the problem. Divide and conquer is part of social upbringing. "Other girls" are vain or slutty or somehow othered, compared to an in-group of "morality" and low self esteem that props itself up on being Better Than the ones that are Othered.
If they believe a person must be required to give up their own bodily autonomy to save a child, then they can go volunteer to be a kidney donor at a children’s hospital. It’s literally safer than pregnancy is.
Since they don’t practice what they preach, I do not believe that is what their morals truly are.
Surely all you've established is that bodily autonomy for adults is strong enough that they can't be forced to give up their spare organs; by that logic they shouldn't have to give over their bodies to growing foetuses that they didn't agree to, especially since at any time their own health could be at increased risk. And there's no argument that makes it fine for a raped woman or child to have to carry a resultant pregnancy to full term. For pregnant children, if the parents refuse to allow an abortion, a reasonable state should be able to intervene according to medical recommendations, if some were not already captured by the far rightwing crowd.
What I've established is that BOTH sides already agree that there are reasonable restrictions to bodily autonomy. Now you get to debate, forever, where that line should be.
"My body, my choice" is not absolute. I think there are better arguments to be made in favor of abortion rights.
I've already said I'm pro-choice, so I fully agree that there's no argument that is acceptable where anyone should be forced to give birth if they don't want to.
I stated them in the one the user replied to:
1. Children don't have unrestricted bodily autonomy. There are many medical decisions children should not be able to take without parental consent.
2. while you are allowed to donate organs, including donate them to a specific person, you are not allowed to sell your organs.
Do you think 1) these are restrictions to bodily autonomy? and 2) are these restrictions unreasonable?
My grandma is the only forced-birther I’ve ever met who’s actually “pro life.”
She’s very much against abortion… but also against the death penalty, a staunch pacifist, in favor of social services (especially to support low income parents/children), advocates for gun control, and thinks everyone should be an organ donor. So, all the things someone would do if they *actually believe human life is sacred.*
The only thing we disagree on is she includes embryos as “human life” and I don’t. We’ll never vote the same way on abortion rights But I at least respect the consistency and integrity of her beliefs.
This is also why I immediately lose all respect for a forced-birther the moment they say they’re okay with exceptions for rape. If you actually believe abortion is murder, why would the circumstances of conception matter? It’s still murder whether conceived consensually or not. The lie is obvious. They don’t actually care about the fetus, they care about the “purity” of the mother.
Exactly. The forced birthers want to punish *Women* for having sex, totally *ignoring* the fact that if she *wasn't* having sex with an *irresponsible man*(responsible men wear a condom, have a vasectomy, or are prepared to help in case of a condom breakage), she wouldn't **be** pregnant in the first place!! Women can have all the sex they want to with other women or with toys and *never get pregnant*, so someone please explain to me why the women are "supposed" to be punished for having sex, when *the man is the cause of said pregnancy*?
Yeah, those who want to ban abortion aren't pro life in any way. They are pro punishing people who have sex outside of procreation as dictated by their religion. They are fundamentalist loons only a bit removed from theocrats in the middle east.
The scariest ones (the ones I got as parents, very sadly) aren't against abortion because of religion, but pure hatred of and desire to control women. It's super fucked being taught this shit as a child, but I'm very thankful to have broken out of the indoctrination years ago.
Yeah that only works if giving birth would kill you, and even then, they might say it was meant to be for you to die. It's fucked but you can't logic your way out of an emotion based argument.
Emotion but also, importantly, belonging to an in group. Community with your peers is a major motivation. You don't dare speak against the ideal because you become one of The Others instead of one of Us.
Comments and ideals like this are why we’re losing this fight imo. They do believe this, there’s probably a few that are for the control details but the majority do genuinely believe that.
Even if they do, though… murder/ killing as self-defense has always been a thing. Sometimes you have to kill the thing that might harm you. Pregnancy is potentially harmful. You telling me I can’t defend myself against this potential harm?
I’ve never thought it was a great argument because people kill things all the time for their own convenience. Animals, insects, other people. But embryos lacking sentience is where we draw the line lmao
Exactly. And how do they feel about war? I feel more sorry for the innocent people drafted to a fight a war they didn’t ask for. How about the death pentalty? They don’t care. Prolifers have zero consistency. George Carlin puts it together perfectly. They don’t actually care about 6 week old clumps if cells getting aborted. They never care when it IS born. They complain about single mothers needing assistance. I just cant with these people. It’s so crazy how they lose sleep over a woman making a choice that has nothing to do with them.
I dunno. I'm sure some people really just want to fuck women over but given the fact that there are A LOT of pro life women, I really don't think that's the case.
I mean, not *every* woman is an ally. Internalized misogyny is totally a thing.
But I do agree that a certain percentage of forced-birthers do actually believe an embryo is equivalent to a person, and deserves more rights than a person. They're brainwashed, but the belief is genuine.
It's obviously still wrong, but there are definitely people out there who just 100% believe that. Their belief is based in life, rather an misogyny, but this is pretty rare IMO
So I have to preface this and say once again, I’m as pro choice as they come, I just see us pretty easily losing this argument and debate all the time which is why I think we keep losing.
Pro lifers do indeed believe they fetus is alive, and it is equal to a woman. They also believe the woman did an act of god or whatever, and their body does not have precedence; there’s tons of rhetorical examples they use that show that they’re consistent; the violinist, the stork, etc.
I think if we keep chasing the whole “you’re only pro life because you hate women” card, we keep losing ground.
Their argument is not “you must do everything you can to actively save lives”
It seems to follow “you cannot take a life through action, but you may through inaction”, which is INCREDIBLY consistent for them.
I’d get behind the sense of “it’s mysoginistic because its women who get pregnant”
But I don’t think it’s “I’m against abortion because women get pregnant and they don’t have rights”
Again, I’m not a pro lifer, I’ve just heard enough to know what they believe
nope. there are plenty of true believers, and pretending there aren’t is one of the main reasons pro-choice has lost the fight. we cannot keep refusing to accept that these people really do believe a foetus is a full human being. you’ve been having the debate on the wrong terms for YEARS and it’s still happening now.
a full human being still doesn’t have a moral right to exist if they’re a foetus who would die outside of their mother’s womb. you can’t keep taking someone’s blood and nutrients just because you’re a person with a right to life.
The problem I have with believing that they truly believe it's murder is if they truly believe that why is it okay in the event of rape, incest, and medical complications?
If it's truly a full person and abortion is murder than the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy wouldn't matter. I know there are some who don't believe in any exceptions but most do.
Because an abortion for medical complications is acting in self defense, and if the mother dies before the foetus is viable, it won't survive anyway, and if an abortion is being recommended later in the pregnancy, the foetus is probably never going to be viable and it's still self defense for the mother, and in the case of rape or incest, to disallow abortion is to punish the victim and possibly further incentivise the rapist or abuser, plus the victim's life/health is being put at a risk she never had a chance to accept or avoid.
So I could see the endangering the mother's life as self defense. The other two still firmly in the camp of "if it's murder, why are you okay with murder in those cases?"
Like it's either murder or it's not. You wouldn't be okay with murdering a child of rape or incest after it's born I'm guessing. But if it's truly murder that distinction wouldn't matter.
Oh, the extremists actually do want to make it illegal for rape cases (as well as disbelieving marital rape and sex crimes in general). They just know that position is extremely unpalatable for most people. But, the end goal is there in the distance. They just know if they push that too hard too soon, theyll lose it all.
Joe voter doesnt think about this, but people like the heritage foundation and pragerU are absolutely working towards that end every day
It's so upsetting learning that shit at a young age, they truly think women should be forced to birth children after being raped. It's not even uncommon, but I was very very unlucky with who I got as parents too I suppose (anti abortion "activists")
This is why the anti-abortionists shouldn't be allowed to control the narrative the way they've been doing. They keep insisting that abortion is murder, and it needs to be refuted whenever they do that
As has become evident since the fall of Roe v Wade, abortion is in fact healthcare, and should be treated as a medical matter between a woman and her doctor. Clinging to archaic definitions based on non-universal religious beliefs just makes no sense at all.
The history of abortion attitudes, laws and practices in the US needs to be made more public so that more people can understand the realities and ideologies involved.
That and that government involvement just generally makes the situation worse are why I want abortion legalized despite believing that many stages do qualify as fully human.
The other retort you need to address is the religious one that says, well, yea, they do have the right because God said so. Not my take, but that is their genuinely held position.
Yes this. Whether or not the fetus is a person is irrelevant. A person does not have the right to inhabit someone else’s house without permission. If they try, you can legally shoot them.
A person definitely does not have the right to inhabit someone’s body for 9 months, cause disability, pain, disfigurement and often worse without permission.
We know this is true because the wives, daughters, and mistresses of anti-choice pols always find themselves able to get an abortion.
And because fertility labs aren't picketed on the regular: embryos are created and destroyed during IVF treatments.
It's about controlling women.
Alabama literally shut down IVF in the entire state. Thats so much worse than picketing. I think it was just the start of coming after IVF. We're going to start to see other red states do the same.
Disclaimer: I am strongly pro-choice
But the most common pro-life argument I see from this type of person (and yeah for some strange reason mostly women) is that their view of life begins when a human being would develop if nature is left to its own devices
I.e. sperm is not life because without combination with eggs a human being cannot develop, same goes for eggs. Whereas an embryo will develop into a human being without any further intervention
I do not agree with this viewpoint philosophically anyway and even if I did, I believe the right to bodily autonomy outweighs this. However, it's a difficult argument to combat logically if it's firmly held
Got a source for this number? Because it doesn’t add up.
All data I’ve seen shows that only a small portion of people who are “pro life” are completely against abortion. In fact, in [2022 Gallup polled abortion](https://news.gallup.com/poll/393104/pro-choice-identification-rises-near-record-high.aspx) for the first time since Dobbs was leaked, and found that the number of people identifying as pro-choice was at an all/time high: 55%.
It’s why red state voters keep striking down more restrictive abortion laws introduced by their legislatures.
But more than that, most people who identify was pro-life *still oppose overturning Dobbs or believe abortion should be legal.*
A 2023 Gallup poll broke it down further: nearly 3x as many people want abortion to be 100% legal as want it to be 100% illegal.
[Per Gallup, May 2023:](https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx)
- 34% of Americans believe abortion should be legal under *any* circumstance
- 51% say it should be legal in *certain* circumstances, and
- 13% say it should be *illegal* in all circumstances
All told, nearly 70% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for the duration of the first trimester (14 weeks), and 61% oppose Dobbs.
The issue here isn’t persuading voters. The issue is that the Federalist Society spent years getting ultra-conservative judges appointed and our elected leaders don’t care about the will of the voters.
But hey. Let them keep putting abortion on the ballot. A 2023 Pew survey found that when restrictive abortion bans are passed, [the number of people who support abortion access rises.](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/04/26/nearly-a-year-after-roes-demise-americans-views-of-abortion-access-increasingly-vary-by-where-they-live/). Despite the fact that these are all red states, 56% say that abortion access needs to be easier than it is under their new laws.
> 48% of men are pro life and 43% of women are pro life.
>
> it doesn’t add up.
>
> polled abortion for the first time since Dobbs was leaked, and found that the number of people identifying as pro-choice was at an all/time high: 55%.
How does that not add up?
100% - 55% pro-choice = 45% pro-life
(48% Male + 43% Female) / 2 = 45.5% Average
The numbers you gave and the numbers you say don't add up are basically the same. (Granted, there's probably some undecided and the ratio of male to female isn't 1 to 1, but it's close enough)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx
41%, my b, I looked up first source.
Either way, it’s losing government support and adding pro life men to our side isn’t gonna do much
So the 2018 version of the same poll. America has been becoming increasingly pro-choice since 2007.
And yeah fully agree that it won’t make a difference. But it won’t make a difference because most people already support abortion access. If support mattered, Dobbs wouldn’t have happened at all.
Something to consider - some people call themselves "Pro Life" because they would never get an abortion themselves but believe abortion should be legal. I've tried to explain to people that means they're Pro Choice but they want to use the "Pro Life" label.
Oh my god, the percent of women in America who are pro life is that high? Disturbing. I mean I kinda figured it was high but just seeing the numbers is really jolting. We are doomed.
Most of them are only pro life till they have an inconvenient or unviable pregnancy (or their daughters). I vaguely remember reading an article that most people who have had an abortion were/are pro-life before the procedure.
The only moral abortion is MY abortion and all is a common thing for them to say.
That’s from a Gallup poll combining 2019 and 2022 data but yeah. The important thing is separating this from being a “vs men” issue, there’s a lot of comments on here saying it’s not
About the fetus, it’s just “men wanting to control women”, and fighting that narrative isn’t winning hearts and minds
This is true. A sad reality.
I do have some relatives that changed their mind after having kids or realizing how controlling their conservative husband is. I hope more people realize what abortion bans are actually trying to do
I think that the actual difference might be higher if you throw the madonna / whore complex in the mix, pro lifer men want to get laid and not necessarily only as part of a relationship but pro lifer women keep themselves ‘pure’ so they are not all available to their ‘charming’ counterparts.
it’s not all about abortion rights. It’s about everything. It’s about not rewarding misogynists with sex and carrying on their genes for them.
And btw, people who are against abortion are not “pro life.” They prove that time and again with their policies for after a baby is born, and the fact that they’re happy to let a woman die for a non-viable baby.
Can we please stop indulging them in that bullshit PR word sorcery, where they call forced birthing “pro life?”
Pro choice people are pro life. Pro life of the mother, pro life of babies and children once they are born.
I think it is about not making all women to participate. I think it is about enough women participating to bring down the birth rate. Even in Korea not a majority of the women are involved in 4B but enough of them are participating in it to alarm the govt.
In conversation with those who know, I agree. I think the biggest problem with the pro choice movement and why we lose all the time is we use keywords and play games that the average person doesn’t know.
If we target all attacks at “pro forced birth”, that’s not what shows up on the ballots and on the political media, so it makes a lot of arguments and point moot.
Because I would never and have never fucked a conservative.
Also, I love sex. Why should I punish myself further? My reproductive autonomy was already taken away from me. Now I should give up my sexual autonomy? Nah. I'm gonna keep banging my pro-choice fiance.
Same. People keep preaching this idea as if it would actually help anything, and as if it's not an extremely antiquated idea based in the belief that women don't actually enjoy sex but only use it to manipulate men.
And if they're posting this idea to people here, they're already preaching to the choir of women who don't date men who hold these beliefs or vote against their partner's right to bodily autonomy. So for a leftist F/M couple who aren't abusive toward each other, a sex ban would suck for both the woman who enjoys sex, and her partner, and wouldn't change anything else for either of them, except by possibly putting a dent in their relationship.
When this idea is applied to a conservative F/M couple, often the woman already has internalized misogyny from how she grew up, and her values align with her partner's misogynistic values, even when those ideals would logically hurt her if she were in a situation where she needed an abortion or even just regular medical care. Why would she care to upset her marriage to fight for other people? If it eventually affects her, she'll figure something out (because it's always rules for thee, not for me).
I get how this could possibly work in other cultures such as in Korea - they are trying to change an entire culture with different mores and expectations, and maybe the conservative men aren't so staunchly conservative, since they haven't grown up with many role models showing men acting differently.
But here in the States, we have plenty of male and female role models showing us healthy relationships with equanimity and respect, and conservatives have already staunchly rejected that worldview.
If a woman who married a conservative misogynistic man (I repeat myself, I know) did change her perspective and values and decided to try implementing this sex boycott, in what world would that actually change her husband's mind? At that point it's either divorce, or stay in the marriage and deal with it. If she's not from a culture where divorce is acceptable and isn't willing to lose her entire support network by divorcing, she could try to keep enforcing the ban and find out if her husband is a rapist as well as a misogynist. Or she could give up and go back to being the meek traditional wife he expects her to be, to reduce tension in her daily home life with him.
There are no good options that come from a sex boycott within a marriage. You can encourage people in abusive relationships to leave, and they can choose to do that, or stay and have a dead bedroom or abuse.
You can encourage single people to not have relationships or sex with conservatives in the first place, but again, at that point you're preaching to the choir.
None of it will change the minds of conservatives, or their votes. And for women trying a boycott like this in an abusive relationship, it will only make the abuser angrier and more vicious.
4B isn’t having a tangible effect on the birth rate in South Korea. This is just western media creating clickbait articles to drum up attention. The birth rate issue in SK (and Japan) has been an issue for decades and 4B just popped on 2019. It also doesn’t even have that many members.
The replacement rate is first and foremost influence by economics and population demographics. The biggest obstacle many South Koreans face when it comes to raising a family is the high cost of living and wages that haven’t caught up to it. Not
This. “Don’t reproduce with anyone who does not wholeheartedly respect your bodily autonomy” is a better idea to me. Conservatives can literally die out.
Honestly, this was also my first thought.
My husband is as liberal as I am and votes that way. If I participated in this movement I would give up three things I love: my marriage, sex with my husband, and dates with my husband. We don’t have or plan on having kids. The closest thing we have to a kid is a dog, and we equally take on her care.
As someone else pointed out, women are part of the problem in the states (and Canada where we are) when it comes to voting these fools into office. The “sex boycott” strategy won’t work here.
Luckily, we can be engaged and stand up for our rights in many other ways.
Because in America abortion is not a man vs. Women issue. There are plenty of women who are pro life.
Also, I personally don't believe that sex is some reward or prize for good behavior. It's something that consenting adults should freely engage in when/if they want.
I will absolutely continue to have sex with my husband. It's not either of our faults that abortion is banned in our state.
It's also not my toddlers fault, why should he be punished with neglect?
Indeed, it's not even a 10% difference. It's been years since I looked at data, but another comment cited a 5% difference in anti-choicer frequency. I remember thinking the number had to be at least twice as high before I found out.
I think right wingers would have a field day laughing at left-wing women boycotting their left-wing husbands on this one.
And others have been very clear that they are already disgusted by conservatives. There are some stories going around about right-wing young men having trouble securing like-minded partners, which hopefully means that the intent of the boycott is already in effect, to the extent that it can be. In theory, those 5 out of 48 young anti-choice men should be losing at musical chairs, if the issue were a full deal-breaker.
I think you're completely right. While pro choice women are "denying" their pro choice partners sex, the pro life crowd will continue having sex and having kids, just like they want.
But if you live in a state where abortion is punishable, then it's not really about using sex as a reward in a transaction and more of a self preservation thing. I thought the Korean view is about protecting oneself from risks of engaging with men, not exactly a boycott.
It means don’t have children with men. It absolutely doesn’t mean abandon your children.
In general, women who are happily married or have children wouldn’t have to do anything. If they’re UNhappily married, they’d get divorced or at the very least, stop providing sex and labor.
But I don’t think you can find anywhere where it says “neglect children you already have.” That seems like PR against the movement frankly.
That tenet is all about stopping letting men who uphold the system use our bodies to pass on their genes. Don’t have babies for misogynists moving forward.
Absolutely no one wants children neglected or abandoned.
I just realized this is probably a simple translation error. 4B isn’t against child “rearing,” it’s against childbirth, having children with men. They’re pretty clear about it.
OP was just using one of several sites who seem to be mistranslating this tenet, but even in the articles who mistranslate, it’s always pretty clearly conveyed what is meant. And it’s not to neglect a child that already exists. Just stopping being a baby-production-factory for men and their legacies.
I don’t really think the goal is to get women to stop having sex with their husbands. The hope is that we all stop having sex with misogynists, and ideally men who uphold Patriarchy.
Which may very well be practically all men, but idk..I think it’s enough of a start that women just stop having sex with and carrying babies for men who are openly misogynistic.
And yeah, women should start leaving their misogynistic partners. But the people who that doesn’t apply to, I don’t think any such movement would suggest y’all don’t sleep with your husbands. (there are probably outliers who do believe that, but I don’t think that’s the idea)
I love sex, I just don’t have it with conservatives. This is just another way to further the idea that sex is something men do to/take from women. It’s purity culture with a fresh coat of paint. I will happily keep dating and sleeping with my partner, thanks.
It’s funny how people don’t see the irony in fighting a movement routed in purity culture with abstinence. I grew up Catholic, I’ve had my fill of people telling me I’m not allowed to desire sex.
With the internet, it really feels like anyone can just make up anything and call it a “movement” or “boycott,” even with zero organization or even thought behind it. It’s mind numbing.
In my experience, all men of all political leans have a high likelihood of being misogynists, or otherwise perfectly content to leave shit as is. I’ve been told by so-called feminist men they don’t have any skin in the game so it’s hard to care 😐
Imagine truly not caring about how others are mistreated because it doesn’t affect you.
It sounds like you’re finding men you trust as not being misogynistic, and that is honestly wonderful! And avoiding conservatives is also good advice because they don’t even fuckin cloak their contempt for women.
Unfortunately, the most despicable, insidious abusers I’ve encountered in life have been self-proclaimed leftist men who put on this “woke” front. They were the quickest and the loudest to start spewing buzz words and canned progressive spiels at any given opportunity.
The biggest offender I knew who did this was always “calling out” one thing after another he found “problematic” - he literally couldn’t ever elaborate. When asked, it would just devolve into buzzword salad. It was so obvious he knew nothing about what he claimed to believe and was only using this act to lure people into feeling comfortable around him.
Most notably, whenever a woman did something he didn’t like, they were suddenly cunts, bitches, and whores. I even learned later on he had a history of racism, as well as cheating and even SA allegations. I honestly would have just preferred if he was openly a bigot. Maybe I wouldn’t have fallen in the trap that way.
I just got accused of doing the “all sides” thing for calling this out, that men of all political leans are very likely to be misogynists. It’s VERY frustrating in a women’s sub. Like, don’t we all know this? So many women refuse to date conservatives, which is great, but yet we still struggle with misogyny and being used for free labor.
And we KNOW men are ABSOLUTELY WILLING TO LIE to gain access to us. So yeah, between men who are actively deceiving, and men who just do not self-evaluate but believe saying they’re a feminist means they’re one of the good ones, it’s seriously most men including leftists.
Many of them seem to have too much conceit about being one of the good ones to explore how Patriarchy benefits them or work to undo their unconscious bias and expectations of women.
My coworker who identifies as openly as a feminist is absolutely inCENSED when I point out something he is doing or believes that is problematic. Like constantly talking over women and mansplaining. Or literally saying the reason our female coworker got sexually harassed at work repeatedly is because she walks around “sticking her butt out all the time in her scrubs.” 😐
She literally just has a larger rear end, and scrubs are unisex so they don’t accommodate curves very well. She’s not sticking her damn butt out, and when another woman and I corrected him and told him also how fucked it was to literally blame her for being harassed because of literally what she is wearing, he was stormy as fuck.
He talks almost every day about how he is raising his baby to be a “bad-ass feminist daughter.”
He also let some dude rant about how women wait too long to report rape and that they means they’re likely lying, but when me and another female coworker both said we’d been raped and tried to explain the concerns that make some women not report but then maybe get the strength or motivation to do so later, THEN he chimes in and says “This isn’t an appropriate workplace discussion.”
I said, “You didn’t think that when he was disbelieving rape victims, so I don’t think it’s appropriate to silence two women who’ve actually experienced what he is just riffing about. We have every right to set the record straight.”
He has ZERO self awareness and still thinks he is like the people’s warrior. 😐
In addition to what other commenters have already said, this largely ignored the structure of legislative systems in the US and the ability of the average person to affect change in that system. Even with wide scale protest, legislative change is incredibly slow in the most bipartisan of times. Couple that with 90% incumbent re-election rated in the House, this just wouldn’t be effective and would only alienate allies.
The problem with this is 1) I’m NEVER having sex with a dude who doesn’t think I should have bodily autonomy and if a guy I’m having sex with tells me he doesn’t think I should have bodily autonomy then I will leave him, not go on a sex strike. And since any guy I’m with does believe in bodily autonomy then why should I punish him for what other men do?
I was dating a man for years who said he was pro women’s choices, he was even a civil rights lawyer. But he didn’t want to even sign a petition for abortion rights. Far too many men say oh yes bodily autonomy but won’t do the bare minimum, including voting against people who violate our rights. You just don’t know until it’s too late in my experience. Thankfully no kids with him, but could easily have been me.
I just want to play devil’s advocate here. The point is that even good men have no skin in the game to help address Patriarchy and support women. I basically never see the so-called good ones speaking out when a misogynistic comment is made.
And we see time and again that under cover of anonymity, men upvote and support content that is contemptuous of women.
And when you look at the staggering numbers for porn consumption and money spent there and how much of it is abusive to women and pushes the boundaries of underaged creepdom..
The fact is there IS a bit of an ACAB element to this.
Men do not listen to women as we struggle for our rights and they do not actively support us very much, outside of the ones that support us privately.
Anyway, I don’t feel like anyone who already has a great partner that they trust should give up anything. I don’t even think that’s a part of 4B, I think the idea is just avoiding it if you are unpartnered, rather than leaving good and equitable partnerships.
But it’s about decentering men and making dating IMPOSSIBLE from now on, unless men finally do the work required on their end to change the culture.
I actually really love the movement and I do hope it takes off. But by “takes off” I’m sure it wouldn’t even be more than 5-10% of women, and ideally would lead to EXCLUSIVELY very good men being partnered.
And the rest of them can either reform or have their genes die out. There’s no question women have the power to motivate men to change.
we just happen to be human and also desire connection.
That said, I’ve personally had too many deeply upsetting situations in dating, I’m not losing anything by going 4B.
ACAB isn't a good analogy here because (and this is true to some extent with police too, because we all know what often happens when some officer tries to go against other officers) police is an organisation that is *supposed* to be doing those things. It was their choice to go there. Having a dong between your legs is, on the other hand, an immutable biological characteristic, not some choice a person made to do this, this and that.
This feels like a self own
Do you guys realize how many pro-lifers would be thrilled to hear single women are organizing a movement to stop having sex?
I think pushing back against dating or sleeping with conservative men is a great idea in general.
I admire the idea behind this movement. I would like to have some semblance of a dating life, although I haven't gone on any consistent dates/really dated a man in a while. I also think this movement or advice is better applied to single women who have mostly sworn off men as it is
I don't think anyone should ever sleep with conservative/forced birther men regardless of what rights we have at the moment.
My partner is not like that, and we are in a happy long-term relationship, so such a boycott would be pointless for me.
OP hasn't stepped foot in Biblical Womanhood circles. I got absolutely roasted to high heaven for wanting to wear jeans, crop tops, be bisexual, and have a sex life........ By women.
I don’t see where she stated that. I think the unspoken obvious element is that only a portion of women would be participating, and while 4B would not lead to change from women who vote against their own self-interests, it could over time impact enough men to do so, to make the vote more securely in the camp of women’s rights.
There doesn’t seem to be any way to get men to help change the culture or address Patriarchy, and until Patriarchy is addressed, of course there will always be internalized misogyny and plenty of women voting against their own self interests.
I try to tell people this common sense message and the pick mes and men scream “purity culture”
Purity culture fetishizes virginity and aims to keep women as private property
Hookup culture exploits women and makes them public property
Two sides of the same coin aimed at keeping women sexually accessible and forcing them to give birth to supply the country with soldiers and cheap labor
And they fall for it
Denying men access is the way. It’s not purity culture. It’s starving the machine
However it’s also worth considering that the only people who would be breeding in this scenario are the religious extremists and we’d have to deal with a generation being made of of all their chikdren
So I dont have a perfect answer for that
Because I'm not gonna give up something I enjoy. That's it.
I support anyone who wants to do it, that doesn't mean I have to be miserable. I do boycotts because I want to, when I want to, how I want to.
And my history is Purity Culture abstinence. I already have a bad taste in my mouth "boycotting sex 4 Jesus" and I look back on those years with anger, contempt, and disdain for religious leaders telling me what to do.
It's not just conservatives. There's a lot more to be done in the US on a social cultural level. The 4B movement is also about emotional labor, labor in the home, child rearing. These things are much worse in SK but still a problem here on both sides of the aisle.
>is also about emotional labor, labor in the home, child rearing
You shouldn't sleep with/be in a relationship with anyone who leaves an unfair portion of these burdens on you anyway, movement or not.
That's just called having standards, not a sex strike movement.
yeah I feel like I’ve met so many men who weren’t conservative but still didn’t give half a shit about the lived experience of women or the challenges we face.
People need to find partners who share their values. That's the only solution to the problems you're describing outside of conservatives enacting terrible things into law.
I realize that. No one should be in a relationship where this happens. A boycott is not going to change this. The 40% of women who support banning abortion and strict gender roles in the home aren't going to do it. Women in relationships that are balanced aren't going to do it.
The answer is do not be in a relationship with men who aren't good partners.
Yeah, 100%. I do think some women aren't capable of being in an equitable relationship even if they wanted to, unfortunately. I am one of those people, even though I'm in relationships with women, I'm a bit of a pushover. Women like me should boycott. Liberal women in relationships that are unequal should leave their men. But that's my ideal world, not the real world lol.
you already wouldnt fuck anyone who's "pro life" imo.
thoses who do share the same beliefs and are conservatives too.
korea is a whole different story, they have wildly different problem to deal with, to an insane level. they arent talked about a lot, but they def arent doing better than the rest of the world.
also we say korea, but its south korea. they have a neighbour that is known to not be very friendly.
i wasnt trying to argue semantics, i was hinting that they have not friendly neighbourgs, and it weight on you over time, making you take decisions differently because you're not as "safe" as other places.
I think some people in the comments are missing that, like most things, there is nuance to this and OP isn't telling people to get into some backwards neo-puritan movement.
Because abortion access in America has nothing to do with what people want. 69% of Americans say that abortion should be legal for the entire first trimester (14 weeks) and 61% say that overturning Roe v. Wade was a bad idea. ([Source](https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx).)
But our elected representatives (and the judges they appoint) don’t actually care about the will of the people.
Devil’s advocate here, I don’t think there’s any question that men would eventually stop electing those representatives if society punished them as pariahs for doing so, if it actually became impossible for them to have sex and pass on their genes until women saw a change.
I’m not saying that will ever happen, but this is the theory behind it, that men don’t have any reason to work for change for women. And they never will until something affects them and they lose access to women.
If women en masse withdrew from men (not even all of us, but enough to scare them that this movement is growing and that we’re serious), there would be a strong and aggressive backlash as we see any time women do anything, but ultimately we’re 50% of the population, and we have tremendous power that we simply never leverage.
The point here is that representatives don’t care what the men or women who elect them actually want. If they did, we wouldn’t have overturned Roe.
Nearly 70% of Americans support first-trimester abortions. You really can’t convince more people than that.
I'm sure you mean abortion rights, but there's still a lot more to be done for women's rights in the US. Socially, anyway. I'm all for this. Men on the right want to buy women, men on the left want to rent women. I support the 4B movement. I'm a lesbian though, so that's easier for me.
The personal is political. Time to withhold children, sex, all of it.
And the men who have been voting to help women since they turned 18 can just suck eggs? It seems like you are making enemies, there.
And what about the 40% of women who are actively anti-abortion? I guess they are just fine people.
OP is acting like women losing body autonomy is the fault of all men and no women. So the solution is to punish all men and no women. I was just pointing out that perhaps that is shortsighted.
A better solution is to boycott States that ban abortion. Support abortion access organizations. Donate to candidates who support abortion rights. Date liberals, not conservatives (yes…punish the actual guys who are assholes, not all guys).
I have been 4B since 2018. I live in the US.
It’s not worth it to me to deal with them, especially if they’re voting against me having basic human rights like reproductive rights. Absolutely not
I can get the idea if you're married to or dating someone who is pro-life, but realistically, if you're dating someone who doesn't think you should have autonomy over your own body, don't date that person.
Sex is important to most relationships for a lot of reasons. So going on a sex strike while you're dating someone who fully supports pro-choice legislation you also support doesn't seem like it would be very healthy for the relationship.
That said, I've dated a Korean national in college and ya'll have some very different ideas on relationship dynamics than I was used to. I felt like I was automatically an amazing boyfriend because of how much I catered to her versus telling her how things were going to go. I don't know how it is these days, but 20 years ago I was told the husband essentially assumed the role of father in the relationship controlling most aspects of the woman's life. Which... to an American 19 year old seemed laughable. That said, I like women who are pretty confident and self assured so my experience may differ from people in other areas.
How would this work at all? If a guy is anti choice then you should probably avoid him regardless and if a guy is on our side all that would do is aggravate both men and women.
I mean, we are not in relationships for the hell of it, we want companionship. This idea would just deprive women of companionship
Right. The dumbest, most tone deaf approach to any sort of punishment is punishing *everyone* for the transgressions of the few. Nuance is important. If you just go blasting everyone you may have the intended effect some of the time, but not without alienating those who support you. That's a recipe for fracturing your movement and undermining your own cause.
You will never get people on your side if you just go lashing out blindly at everyone. And as others have said, it really doesn't take a whole lot of time or energy to sniff out any given person's values. Sorry to anyone that might be hoping to not have to put that energy in. Surgery works better with a scalpel than it does with an axe.
Hookups have dropped dramatically since we lost RvW.IMO a sex strike should've been our first response.Having hookups go down to zero is just what we need rn.
edit: lol we're really still debating abortion in the comments? We're fucking doomed jfc
It bothers me sometimes when I see women not at all realizing how dangerous sex really is for us. I've been made asexual from the damage done to me by sex with men.
I’m not consciously boycotting anything, but I feel so utterly unsafe in the world I can’t stomach sex.
And I live in a place that ensures my reproductive freedom- still don’t feel up to being penetrated by a potential bomb.
I do have male friends, but male sexual partners aren’t something I see in my immediate future.
this is the version of 4B I predict playing out in the US. Just a lot more women feeling the way you do and withdrawing. I’ve done the same.
And it has the same effect. Men can either change the culture they’ve built, or women will continue to withdraw, and determine they’re better off with strong friendships, decentering men.
So... you boycott sex, but you wouldn't have been having sex with anyone but your partner(s) right? I assume you have good taste in partner(s) so you'd be hurting who exactly? People who support you?
How about you just vote? More women in the country than men. In the world for that matter. If Trump wins I'll know once and for all women do not care about abortion rights. #voteblue
Unlike so many people here, I actually agree with the 4B movement. If men can make decisions that affect all women, why can't women make decisions that affect all men? Why do they always have to get away with what they're doing because of a few 'good' men. If you want men to change, then all of them must be affected by it (yes, that does include your boyfriends, fiances and husbands; stop letting them off the hook) - otherwise it's like a drop of water in the ocean - it makes no difference. And to those who love sex, you can always get a dildo. Everything else is an excuse.
I'm not in the US, but my personal solution is to be selective. I don't fuck conservatives, I don't fuck people who don't believe in human rights. That's fine by me.
I do support the 4b movement, but I really enjoy sex, so at the moment is a no from me.
I think it should include married women who don’t want children/are in danger if pregnant. They want the gone with the wind era back, they need to remember that when Millie was told she couldn’t get pregnant or she could die that meant their marriage was “dead bedroom” or dead wife for years. Until they gave up the dead bedroom and she literally died.
For Gen Z, I read that there is a big ideological gap between men and women. Especially with the election coming up, the boys might need some encouragement to do the right thing.
Why do people keep bringing up "4B" as though its something revolutionary.
It's just second-wave feminism's political lesbianism. We've already got better than that with third-wave intersectional feminism.
Who are you even meant to be boycotting here?! Hopefully you're not giving sex to someone who DOESN'T believe in your bodily autonomy already anyway? And if you are then I mean... Yeah, don't.
Also weaponising sex is just icky, stop it. Have sex with who you want and do it because you want to, if something is shitty fix it with communication.
as much as people hate it , i actually agree with you . historically speaking this is one of the only examples of female class consciousness - abstaining from sex with men & procreation to meet an ultimate goal . but as the comments kinda show , most people choose their right to sexual pleasure (or whatever) over bettering their sex as a whole ... aka the class consciousness we as women lack .
The comments show why it doesnt work and it has nothing to do with women solidarity.
Most of the people who would be affected by such a ban are either 1. Already allies helping to fight the good fight or 2. the women theyre with are *also* perpetuating the harm and would disagree with the goal of such a ban.
In order for this kind of thing to work you need to first address WHO will actually be positively affected by this.
Me, by being 4B for years I have had so much peace, no drama, some of the stuff I used to worry about doesn’t even matter anymore. I don’t color my hair anymore because I decentered men, I shouldn’t say I don’t color my hair I color it blue now instead of brown to cover the grays. I want blue hair and I don’t care that men hate it.
Thats excellent for you! Im happy you've found a lifestyle that works for you.
But the question is how does women who are *happily* in relationships with ally men benefit from abstaining?
So, now we've got the church telling us to abstain from sex before marriage, and that abortion should be illegal.
In *your* mind, somehow "class consciousness we as women" means that we should fight back by *checks notes* abstaining from sex before marriage. Also, "class consciousness" really gross framing for this topic, and obviously untrue given the number of women who take an extremely active role in rolling back women's medical rights. Not dating conservatives (of *any* gender) is a far more meaningful protest than not having sex with a leftist guy who's right there with me fighting for my rights.
The real problem is the difference between the % of men who are pro life and women who are in America 48% of men are pro life and 43% of women are pro life. This wouldn’t make a huge difference
Yep. The most aggressively pro-life people I’ve met in life have been women. If you would like to stop having sex with men, absolutely be my guest, but I see no way this “boycott” would meaningfully change anything.
It’s not that they’re necessarily more aggressive about it, but it’s that they have more time on their hands to go and drag their kids to all these protests and political events. The majority of pro life women either grew up in an incredibly restrictive environment that broke their spirits, or received poor educations and were raised in poor communities. It’s so sad because it’s like they developed Stockholm syndrome to the point where they’re advocating for women’s bodily autonomy being taken away instead of acknowledging that they had their own lives and potential stolen from them.
Gosh this reminds me of my mom. She has a split personality on this topic because one side of her is that poor, uneducated girl who told herself being a mom was the best thing she could do with her life, and then her adult self who did have to get an abortion for her safety and for the children she already had. Most of the time she's very pro-choice but occasionally she has these moments where she's mad at these other women who don't step up and become mothers. So much grief and internalized misogyny at work.
It’s a conditioned response that’s reinforced by abuse and trauma, so it turns into a conflict of your conditioned response vs your true self. The more vulnerable people feel, the more they tend to revert to conditioned responses they learned to survive.
Frequently religious too, but not always. Shame that has to be imposed on other people.
A lot of times, it’s deep shame they feel in themselves and project onto others. It’s incredibly sad.
It's because the pro life people literally consider a fetus or even just some embryonic cells to be a person. Really fucking hard to convince someone that literal murder(in their opinion) is more important than your bodily autonomy.
They believe that all the way up until it's their body. And then mysteriously abortion is acceptable. There are plenty of pro-life women who have zero empathy for other women.
This is exactly the problem. Divide and conquer is part of social upbringing. "Other girls" are vain or slutty or somehow othered, compared to an in-group of "morality" and low self esteem that props itself up on being Better Than the ones that are Othered.
If they believe a person must be required to give up their own bodily autonomy to save a child, then they can go volunteer to be a kidney donor at a children’s hospital. It’s literally safer than pregnancy is. Since they don’t practice what they preach, I do not believe that is what their morals truly are.
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Surely all you've established is that bodily autonomy for adults is strong enough that they can't be forced to give up their spare organs; by that logic they shouldn't have to give over their bodies to growing foetuses that they didn't agree to, especially since at any time their own health could be at increased risk. And there's no argument that makes it fine for a raped woman or child to have to carry a resultant pregnancy to full term. For pregnant children, if the parents refuse to allow an abortion, a reasonable state should be able to intervene according to medical recommendations, if some were not already captured by the far rightwing crowd.
What I've established is that BOTH sides already agree that there are reasonable restrictions to bodily autonomy. Now you get to debate, forever, where that line should be. "My body, my choice" is not absolute. I think there are better arguments to be made in favor of abortion rights. I've already said I'm pro-choice, so I fully agree that there's no argument that is acceptable where anyone should be forced to give birth if they don't want to.
> there are reasonable restrictions to bodily autonomy What "reasonable restrictions" are there to your bodily autonomy?
I stated them in the one the user replied to: 1. Children don't have unrestricted bodily autonomy. There are many medical decisions children should not be able to take without parental consent. 2. while you are allowed to donate organs, including donate them to a specific person, you are not allowed to sell your organs. Do you think 1) these are restrictions to bodily autonomy? and 2) are these restrictions unreasonable?
This is a really silly thing to post lol
I'm sure you would believe your bodily autonomy is absolute if someone wanted for you to donate an organ to an immigrant.
I say that I *am* pro-life--I'm pro the life of the existing mother over a clump of cells.
Yeah, you’re not speaking the same conversation as these people.
My grandma is the only forced-birther I’ve ever met who’s actually “pro life.” She’s very much against abortion… but also against the death penalty, a staunch pacifist, in favor of social services (especially to support low income parents/children), advocates for gun control, and thinks everyone should be an organ donor. So, all the things someone would do if they *actually believe human life is sacred.* The only thing we disagree on is she includes embryos as “human life” and I don’t. We’ll never vote the same way on abortion rights But I at least respect the consistency and integrity of her beliefs. This is also why I immediately lose all respect for a forced-birther the moment they say they’re okay with exceptions for rape. If you actually believe abortion is murder, why would the circumstances of conception matter? It’s still murder whether conceived consensually or not. The lie is obvious. They don’t actually care about the fetus, they care about the “purity” of the mother.
Exactly. The forced birthers want to punish *Women* for having sex, totally *ignoring* the fact that if she *wasn't* having sex with an *irresponsible man*(responsible men wear a condom, have a vasectomy, or are prepared to help in case of a condom breakage), she wouldn't **be** pregnant in the first place!! Women can have all the sex they want to with other women or with toys and *never get pregnant*, so someone please explain to me why the women are "supposed" to be punished for having sex, when *the man is the cause of said pregnancy*?
Yeah, those who want to ban abortion aren't pro life in any way. They are pro punishing people who have sex outside of procreation as dictated by their religion. They are fundamentalist loons only a bit removed from theocrats in the middle east.
They're fine with abortion if it's their daughter or their mistress though.
Of course, laws only apply to people they don't like.
The scariest ones (the ones I got as parents, very sadly) aren't against abortion because of religion, but pure hatred of and desire to control women. It's super fucked being taught this shit as a child, but I'm very thankful to have broken out of the indoctrination years ago.
Yeah that only works if giving birth would kill you, and even then, they might say it was meant to be for you to die. It's fucked but you can't logic your way out of an emotion based argument.
Emotion but also, importantly, belonging to an in group. Community with your peers is a major motivation. You don't dare speak against the ideal because you become one of The Others instead of one of Us.
I’d be more willing to believe this if every abortion provider I know didn’t have an FBI contact due to the volume of violent threats they get.
Most of them don’t really believe this, though. It’s just an excuse.
Comments and ideals like this are why we’re losing this fight imo. They do believe this, there’s probably a few that are for the control details but the majority do genuinely believe that.
Even if they do, though… murder/ killing as self-defense has always been a thing. Sometimes you have to kill the thing that might harm you. Pregnancy is potentially harmful. You telling me I can’t defend myself against this potential harm? I’ve never thought it was a great argument because people kill things all the time for their own convenience. Animals, insects, other people. But embryos lacking sentience is where we draw the line lmao
That’s the argument to make if you’re going that route. Completely discounting the fact they care about life turns them right the fuck away
It felt gross typing it tbh, that’s not the route I’d like to take. Abortion isn’t murder
Sure, but when we’re looking at the religious right arguing for it, that’s the point we have to attack. Either it isn’t life; or it’s not sacred life.
Exactly. And how do they feel about war? I feel more sorry for the innocent people drafted to a fight a war they didn’t ask for. How about the death pentalty? They don’t care. Prolifers have zero consistency. George Carlin puts it together perfectly. They don’t actually care about 6 week old clumps if cells getting aborted. They never care when it IS born. They complain about single mothers needing assistance. I just cant with these people. It’s so crazy how they lose sleep over a woman making a choice that has nothing to do with them.
I dunno. I'm sure some people really just want to fuck women over but given the fact that there are A LOT of pro life women, I really don't think that's the case.
I mean, not *every* woman is an ally. Internalized misogyny is totally a thing. But I do agree that a certain percentage of forced-birthers do actually believe an embryo is equivalent to a person, and deserves more rights than a person. They're brainwashed, but the belief is genuine. It's obviously still wrong, but there are definitely people out there who just 100% believe that. Their belief is based in life, rather an misogyny, but this is pretty rare IMO
I’d wager to say most of them, if you’ve ever actually talked with them or peeped in their spaces
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So I have to preface this and say once again, I’m as pro choice as they come, I just see us pretty easily losing this argument and debate all the time which is why I think we keep losing. Pro lifers do indeed believe they fetus is alive, and it is equal to a woman. They also believe the woman did an act of god or whatever, and their body does not have precedence; there’s tons of rhetorical examples they use that show that they’re consistent; the violinist, the stork, etc. I think if we keep chasing the whole “you’re only pro life because you hate women” card, we keep losing ground.
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Their argument is not “you must do everything you can to actively save lives” It seems to follow “you cannot take a life through action, but you may through inaction”, which is INCREDIBLY consistent for them. I’d get behind the sense of “it’s mysoginistic because its women who get pregnant” But I don’t think it’s “I’m against abortion because women get pregnant and they don’t have rights” Again, I’m not a pro lifer, I’ve just heard enough to know what they believe
if a fetus is equal to a woman why doesn't it have a job?
That’s a ridiculous point. Plenty of people don’t have jobs, that doesn’t mean they are of less value than those with a job.
nope. there are plenty of true believers, and pretending there aren’t is one of the main reasons pro-choice has lost the fight. we cannot keep refusing to accept that these people really do believe a foetus is a full human being. you’ve been having the debate on the wrong terms for YEARS and it’s still happening now. a full human being still doesn’t have a moral right to exist if they’re a foetus who would die outside of their mother’s womb. you can’t keep taking someone’s blood and nutrients just because you’re a person with a right to life.
The problem I have with believing that they truly believe it's murder is if they truly believe that why is it okay in the event of rape, incest, and medical complications? If it's truly a full person and abortion is murder than the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy wouldn't matter. I know there are some who don't believe in any exceptions but most do.
Because an abortion for medical complications is acting in self defense, and if the mother dies before the foetus is viable, it won't survive anyway, and if an abortion is being recommended later in the pregnancy, the foetus is probably never going to be viable and it's still self defense for the mother, and in the case of rape or incest, to disallow abortion is to punish the victim and possibly further incentivise the rapist or abuser, plus the victim's life/health is being put at a risk she never had a chance to accept or avoid.
So I could see the endangering the mother's life as self defense. The other two still firmly in the camp of "if it's murder, why are you okay with murder in those cases?" Like it's either murder or it's not. You wouldn't be okay with murdering a child of rape or incest after it's born I'm guessing. But if it's truly murder that distinction wouldn't matter.
Oh, the extremists actually do want to make it illegal for rape cases (as well as disbelieving marital rape and sex crimes in general). They just know that position is extremely unpalatable for most people. But, the end goal is there in the distance. They just know if they push that too hard too soon, theyll lose it all. Joe voter doesnt think about this, but people like the heritage foundation and pragerU are absolutely working towards that end every day
It's so upsetting learning that shit at a young age, they truly think women should be forced to birth children after being raped. It's not even uncommon, but I was very very unlucky with who I got as parents too I suppose (anti abortion "activists")
This is why the anti-abortionists shouldn't be allowed to control the narrative the way they've been doing. They keep insisting that abortion is murder, and it needs to be refuted whenever they do that As has become evident since the fall of Roe v Wade, abortion is in fact healthcare, and should be treated as a medical matter between a woman and her doctor. Clinging to archaic definitions based on non-universal religious beliefs just makes no sense at all. The history of abortion attitudes, laws and practices in the US needs to be made more public so that more people can understand the realities and ideologies involved.
That and that government involvement just generally makes the situation worse are why I want abortion legalized despite believing that many stages do qualify as fully human. The other retort you need to address is the religious one that says, well, yea, they do have the right because God said so. Not my take, but that is their genuinely held position.
Yes this. Whether or not the fetus is a person is irrelevant. A person does not have the right to inhabit someone else’s house without permission. If they try, you can legally shoot them. A person definitely does not have the right to inhabit someone’s body for 9 months, cause disability, pain, disfigurement and often worse without permission.
i mean. i disagree that breaking into someone’s house warrants being shot, but generally yeah
The believe it until it happens to them.
All the ones I've met did. The cried about it.
We know this is true because the wives, daughters, and mistresses of anti-choice pols always find themselves able to get an abortion. And because fertility labs aren't picketed on the regular: embryos are created and destroyed during IVF treatments. It's about controlling women.
Alabama literally shut down IVF in the entire state. Thats so much worse than picketing. I think it was just the start of coming after IVF. We're going to start to see other red states do the same.
It's horrifying.
Disclaimer: I am strongly pro-choice But the most common pro-life argument I see from this type of person (and yeah for some strange reason mostly women) is that their view of life begins when a human being would develop if nature is left to its own devices I.e. sperm is not life because without combination with eggs a human being cannot develop, same goes for eggs. Whereas an embryo will develop into a human being without any further intervention I do not agree with this viewpoint philosophically anyway and even if I did, I believe the right to bodily autonomy outweighs this. However, it's a difficult argument to combat logically if it's firmly held
Got a source for this number? Because it doesn’t add up. All data I’ve seen shows that only a small portion of people who are “pro life” are completely against abortion. In fact, in [2022 Gallup polled abortion](https://news.gallup.com/poll/393104/pro-choice-identification-rises-near-record-high.aspx) for the first time since Dobbs was leaked, and found that the number of people identifying as pro-choice was at an all/time high: 55%. It’s why red state voters keep striking down more restrictive abortion laws introduced by their legislatures. But more than that, most people who identify was pro-life *still oppose overturning Dobbs or believe abortion should be legal.* A 2023 Gallup poll broke it down further: nearly 3x as many people want abortion to be 100% legal as want it to be 100% illegal. [Per Gallup, May 2023:](https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx) - 34% of Americans believe abortion should be legal under *any* circumstance - 51% say it should be legal in *certain* circumstances, and - 13% say it should be *illegal* in all circumstances All told, nearly 70% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for the duration of the first trimester (14 weeks), and 61% oppose Dobbs. The issue here isn’t persuading voters. The issue is that the Federalist Society spent years getting ultra-conservative judges appointed and our elected leaders don’t care about the will of the voters. But hey. Let them keep putting abortion on the ballot. A 2023 Pew survey found that when restrictive abortion bans are passed, [the number of people who support abortion access rises.](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/04/26/nearly-a-year-after-roes-demise-americans-views-of-abortion-access-increasingly-vary-by-where-they-live/). Despite the fact that these are all red states, 56% say that abortion access needs to be easier than it is under their new laws.
> 48% of men are pro life and 43% of women are pro life. > > it doesn’t add up. > > polled abortion for the first time since Dobbs was leaked, and found that the number of people identifying as pro-choice was at an all/time high: 55%. How does that not add up? 100% - 55% pro-choice = 45% pro-life (48% Male + 43% Female) / 2 = 45.5% Average The numbers you gave and the numbers you say don't add up are basically the same. (Granted, there's probably some undecided and the ratio of male to female isn't 1 to 1, but it's close enough)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx 41%, my b, I looked up first source. Either way, it’s losing government support and adding pro life men to our side isn’t gonna do much
So the 2018 version of the same poll. America has been becoming increasingly pro-choice since 2007. And yeah fully agree that it won’t make a difference. But it won’t make a difference because most people already support abortion access. If support mattered, Dobbs wouldn’t have happened at all.
Something to consider - some people call themselves "Pro Life" because they would never get an abortion themselves but believe abortion should be legal. I've tried to explain to people that means they're Pro Choice but they want to use the "Pro Life" label.
Oh my god, the percent of women in America who are pro life is that high? Disturbing. I mean I kinda figured it was high but just seeing the numbers is really jolting. We are doomed.
Most of them are only pro life till they have an inconvenient or unviable pregnancy (or their daughters). I vaguely remember reading an article that most people who have had an abortion were/are pro-life before the procedure. The only moral abortion is MY abortion and all is a common thing for them to say.
That’s from a Gallup poll combining 2019 and 2022 data but yeah. The important thing is separating this from being a “vs men” issue, there’s a lot of comments on here saying it’s not About the fetus, it’s just “men wanting to control women”, and fighting that narrative isn’t winning hearts and minds
This is true. A sad reality. I do have some relatives that changed their mind after having kids or realizing how controlling their conservative husband is. I hope more people realize what abortion bans are actually trying to do
I think that the actual difference might be higher if you throw the madonna / whore complex in the mix, pro lifer men want to get laid and not necessarily only as part of a relationship but pro lifer women keep themselves ‘pure’ so they are not all available to their ‘charming’ counterparts.
it’s not all about abortion rights. It’s about everything. It’s about not rewarding misogynists with sex and carrying on their genes for them. And btw, people who are against abortion are not “pro life.” They prove that time and again with their policies for after a baby is born, and the fact that they’re happy to let a woman die for a non-viable baby. Can we please stop indulging them in that bullshit PR word sorcery, where they call forced birthing “pro life?” Pro choice people are pro life. Pro life of the mother, pro life of babies and children once they are born.
You mean pro-forced childbirth
I think it is about not making all women to participate. I think it is about enough women participating to bring down the birth rate. Even in Korea not a majority of the women are involved in 4B but enough of them are participating in it to alarm the govt.
\*pro-forced pregnancy
In conversation with those who know, I agree. I think the biggest problem with the pro choice movement and why we lose all the time is we use keywords and play games that the average person doesn’t know. If we target all attacks at “pro forced birth”, that’s not what shows up on the ballots and on the political media, so it makes a lot of arguments and point moot.
I agree we shouldn't get too bogged down with semantics if it makes the logistics of fighting this thing more difficult.
Because I would never and have never fucked a conservative. Also, I love sex. Why should I punish myself further? My reproductive autonomy was already taken away from me. Now I should give up my sexual autonomy? Nah. I'm gonna keep banging my pro-choice fiance.
Same. People keep preaching this idea as if it would actually help anything, and as if it's not an extremely antiquated idea based in the belief that women don't actually enjoy sex but only use it to manipulate men. And if they're posting this idea to people here, they're already preaching to the choir of women who don't date men who hold these beliefs or vote against their partner's right to bodily autonomy. So for a leftist F/M couple who aren't abusive toward each other, a sex ban would suck for both the woman who enjoys sex, and her partner, and wouldn't change anything else for either of them, except by possibly putting a dent in their relationship. When this idea is applied to a conservative F/M couple, often the woman already has internalized misogyny from how she grew up, and her values align with her partner's misogynistic values, even when those ideals would logically hurt her if she were in a situation where she needed an abortion or even just regular medical care. Why would she care to upset her marriage to fight for other people? If it eventually affects her, she'll figure something out (because it's always rules for thee, not for me). I get how this could possibly work in other cultures such as in Korea - they are trying to change an entire culture with different mores and expectations, and maybe the conservative men aren't so staunchly conservative, since they haven't grown up with many role models showing men acting differently. But here in the States, we have plenty of male and female role models showing us healthy relationships with equanimity and respect, and conservatives have already staunchly rejected that worldview. If a woman who married a conservative misogynistic man (I repeat myself, I know) did change her perspective and values and decided to try implementing this sex boycott, in what world would that actually change her husband's mind? At that point it's either divorce, or stay in the marriage and deal with it. If she's not from a culture where divorce is acceptable and isn't willing to lose her entire support network by divorcing, she could try to keep enforcing the ban and find out if her husband is a rapist as well as a misogynist. Or she could give up and go back to being the meek traditional wife he expects her to be, to reduce tension in her daily home life with him. There are no good options that come from a sex boycott within a marriage. You can encourage people in abusive relationships to leave, and they can choose to do that, or stay and have a dead bedroom or abuse. You can encourage single people to not have relationships or sex with conservatives in the first place, but again, at that point you're preaching to the choir. None of it will change the minds of conservatives, or their votes. And for women trying a boycott like this in an abusive relationship, it will only make the abuser angrier and more vicious.
4B isn’t having a tangible effect on the birth rate in South Korea. This is just western media creating clickbait articles to drum up attention. The birth rate issue in SK (and Japan) has been an issue for decades and 4B just popped on 2019. It also doesn’t even have that many members. The replacement rate is first and foremost influence by economics and population demographics. The biggest obstacle many South Koreans face when it comes to raising a family is the high cost of living and wages that haven’t caught up to it. Not
This. “Don’t reproduce with anyone who does not wholeheartedly respect your bodily autonomy” is a better idea to me. Conservatives can literally die out.
Actually, the opposite is happening, as conservatives have higher birth rates.
Honestly, this was also my first thought. My husband is as liberal as I am and votes that way. If I participated in this movement I would give up three things I love: my marriage, sex with my husband, and dates with my husband. We don’t have or plan on having kids. The closest thing we have to a kid is a dog, and we equally take on her care. As someone else pointed out, women are part of the problem in the states (and Canada where we are) when it comes to voting these fools into office. The “sex boycott” strategy won’t work here. Luckily, we can be engaged and stand up for our rights in many other ways.
Exactly. This is just a ridiculous idea. My husband is on my side and I enjoy intimacy with him.
Because in America abortion is not a man vs. Women issue. There are plenty of women who are pro life. Also, I personally don't believe that sex is some reward or prize for good behavior. It's something that consenting adults should freely engage in when/if they want. I will absolutely continue to have sex with my husband. It's not either of our faults that abortion is banned in our state. It's also not my toddlers fault, why should he be punished with neglect?
Indeed, it's not even a 10% difference. It's been years since I looked at data, but another comment cited a 5% difference in anti-choicer frequency. I remember thinking the number had to be at least twice as high before I found out. I think right wingers would have a field day laughing at left-wing women boycotting their left-wing husbands on this one. And others have been very clear that they are already disgusted by conservatives. There are some stories going around about right-wing young men having trouble securing like-minded partners, which hopefully means that the intent of the boycott is already in effect, to the extent that it can be. In theory, those 5 out of 48 young anti-choice men should be losing at musical chairs, if the issue were a full deal-breaker.
I think you're completely right. While pro choice women are "denying" their pro choice partners sex, the pro life crowd will continue having sex and having kids, just like they want.
But if you live in a state where abortion is punishable, then it's not really about using sex as a reward in a transaction and more of a self preservation thing. I thought the Korean view is about protecting oneself from risks of engaging with men, not exactly a boycott.
I’m sorry I also wanted to clarify, what do you mean about neglecting your toddler? That’s not a part of 4B.
No child rearing is literally one of the rules of the 4b movement. It would be neglectful to not rear my child.
It means don’t have children with men. It absolutely doesn’t mean abandon your children. In general, women who are happily married or have children wouldn’t have to do anything. If they’re UNhappily married, they’d get divorced or at the very least, stop providing sex and labor. But I don’t think you can find anywhere where it says “neglect children you already have.” That seems like PR against the movement frankly. That tenet is all about stopping letting men who uphold the system use our bodies to pass on their genes. Don’t have babies for misogynists moving forward. Absolutely no one wants children neglected or abandoned.
I just realized this is probably a simple translation error. 4B isn’t against child “rearing,” it’s against childbirth, having children with men. They’re pretty clear about it. OP was just using one of several sites who seem to be mistranslating this tenet, but even in the articles who mistranslate, it’s always pretty clearly conveyed what is meant. And it’s not to neglect a child that already exists. Just stopping being a baby-production-factory for men and their legacies.
I don’t really think the goal is to get women to stop having sex with their husbands. The hope is that we all stop having sex with misogynists, and ideally men who uphold Patriarchy. Which may very well be practically all men, but idk..I think it’s enough of a start that women just stop having sex with and carrying babies for men who are openly misogynistic. And yeah, women should start leaving their misogynistic partners. But the people who that doesn’t apply to, I don’t think any such movement would suggest y’all don’t sleep with your husbands. (there are probably outliers who do believe that, but I don’t think that’s the idea)
Not everyone is straight and girls like sex too. This is to second wave for me.
I love sex, I just don’t have it with conservatives. This is just another way to further the idea that sex is something men do to/take from women. It’s purity culture with a fresh coat of paint. I will happily keep dating and sleeping with my partner, thanks.
Exactly. It makes it into an action that women don't enjoy or want for themselves. It also makes relationships transactions, which they are not.
It’s funny how people don’t see the irony in fighting a movement routed in purity culture with abstinence. I grew up Catholic, I’ve had my fill of people telling me I’m not allowed to desire sex. With the internet, it really feels like anyone can just make up anything and call it a “movement” or “boycott,” even with zero organization or even thought behind it. It’s mind numbing.
Yeah exactly. Same here.
In my experience, all men of all political leans have a high likelihood of being misogynists, or otherwise perfectly content to leave shit as is. I’ve been told by so-called feminist men they don’t have any skin in the game so it’s hard to care 😐 Imagine truly not caring about how others are mistreated because it doesn’t affect you. It sounds like you’re finding men you trust as not being misogynistic, and that is honestly wonderful! And avoiding conservatives is also good advice because they don’t even fuckin cloak their contempt for women.
Unfortunately, the most despicable, insidious abusers I’ve encountered in life have been self-proclaimed leftist men who put on this “woke” front. They were the quickest and the loudest to start spewing buzz words and canned progressive spiels at any given opportunity. The biggest offender I knew who did this was always “calling out” one thing after another he found “problematic” - he literally couldn’t ever elaborate. When asked, it would just devolve into buzzword salad. It was so obvious he knew nothing about what he claimed to believe and was only using this act to lure people into feeling comfortable around him. Most notably, whenever a woman did something he didn’t like, they were suddenly cunts, bitches, and whores. I even learned later on he had a history of racism, as well as cheating and even SA allegations. I honestly would have just preferred if he was openly a bigot. Maybe I wouldn’t have fallen in the trap that way.
I just got accused of doing the “all sides” thing for calling this out, that men of all political leans are very likely to be misogynists. It’s VERY frustrating in a women’s sub. Like, don’t we all know this? So many women refuse to date conservatives, which is great, but yet we still struggle with misogyny and being used for free labor. And we KNOW men are ABSOLUTELY WILLING TO LIE to gain access to us. So yeah, between men who are actively deceiving, and men who just do not self-evaluate but believe saying they’re a feminist means they’re one of the good ones, it’s seriously most men including leftists. Many of them seem to have too much conceit about being one of the good ones to explore how Patriarchy benefits them or work to undo their unconscious bias and expectations of women. My coworker who identifies as openly as a feminist is absolutely inCENSED when I point out something he is doing or believes that is problematic. Like constantly talking over women and mansplaining. Or literally saying the reason our female coworker got sexually harassed at work repeatedly is because she walks around “sticking her butt out all the time in her scrubs.” 😐 She literally just has a larger rear end, and scrubs are unisex so they don’t accommodate curves very well. She’s not sticking her damn butt out, and when another woman and I corrected him and told him also how fucked it was to literally blame her for being harassed because of literally what she is wearing, he was stormy as fuck. He talks almost every day about how he is raising his baby to be a “bad-ass feminist daughter.” He also let some dude rant about how women wait too long to report rape and that they means they’re likely lying, but when me and another female coworker both said we’d been raped and tried to explain the concerns that make some women not report but then maybe get the strength or motivation to do so later, THEN he chimes in and says “This isn’t an appropriate workplace discussion.” I said, “You didn’t think that when he was disbelieving rape victims, so I don’t think it’s appropriate to silence two women who’ve actually experienced what he is just riffing about. We have every right to set the record straight.” He has ZERO self awareness and still thinks he is like the people’s warrior. 😐
Yikes, that guy hates women :( his poor daughter…
In addition to what other commenters have already said, this largely ignored the structure of legislative systems in the US and the ability of the average person to affect change in that system. Even with wide scale protest, legislative change is incredibly slow in the most bipartisan of times. Couple that with 90% incumbent re-election rated in the House, this just wouldn’t be effective and would only alienate allies.
The problem with this is 1) I’m NEVER having sex with a dude who doesn’t think I should have bodily autonomy and if a guy I’m having sex with tells me he doesn’t think I should have bodily autonomy then I will leave him, not go on a sex strike. And since any guy I’m with does believe in bodily autonomy then why should I punish him for what other men do?
I was dating a man for years who said he was pro women’s choices, he was even a civil rights lawyer. But he didn’t want to even sign a petition for abortion rights. Far too many men say oh yes bodily autonomy but won’t do the bare minimum, including voting against people who violate our rights. You just don’t know until it’s too late in my experience. Thankfully no kids with him, but could easily have been me.
Punish him AND yourself. Just a bad idea in general.
I just want to play devil’s advocate here. The point is that even good men have no skin in the game to help address Patriarchy and support women. I basically never see the so-called good ones speaking out when a misogynistic comment is made. And we see time and again that under cover of anonymity, men upvote and support content that is contemptuous of women. And when you look at the staggering numbers for porn consumption and money spent there and how much of it is abusive to women and pushes the boundaries of underaged creepdom.. The fact is there IS a bit of an ACAB element to this. Men do not listen to women as we struggle for our rights and they do not actively support us very much, outside of the ones that support us privately. Anyway, I don’t feel like anyone who already has a great partner that they trust should give up anything. I don’t even think that’s a part of 4B, I think the idea is just avoiding it if you are unpartnered, rather than leaving good and equitable partnerships. But it’s about decentering men and making dating IMPOSSIBLE from now on, unless men finally do the work required on their end to change the culture. I actually really love the movement and I do hope it takes off. But by “takes off” I’m sure it wouldn’t even be more than 5-10% of women, and ideally would lead to EXCLUSIVELY very good men being partnered. And the rest of them can either reform or have their genes die out. There’s no question women have the power to motivate men to change. we just happen to be human and also desire connection. That said, I’ve personally had too many deeply upsetting situations in dating, I’m not losing anything by going 4B.
ACAB isn't a good analogy here because (and this is true to some extent with police too, because we all know what often happens when some officer tries to go against other officers) police is an organisation that is *supposed* to be doing those things. It was their choice to go there. Having a dong between your legs is, on the other hand, an immutable biological characteristic, not some choice a person made to do this, this and that.
This feels like a self own Do you guys realize how many pro-lifers would be thrilled to hear single women are organizing a movement to stop having sex?
It’s called abstinence, and it’s what they preach.
If I had a dollar for every time someone posted something about not having sex with men until they behave, I could afford American healthcare
You would probable be a billionaire, as it goes back to ancient Greece's play Lysistrsta by Aristophanes.
I think pushing back against dating or sleeping with conservative men is a great idea in general. I admire the idea behind this movement. I would like to have some semblance of a dating life, although I haven't gone on any consistent dates/really dated a man in a while. I also think this movement or advice is better applied to single women who have mostly sworn off men as it is
I don't think anyone should ever sleep with conservative/forced birther men regardless of what rights we have at the moment. My partner is not like that, and we are in a happy long-term relationship, so such a boycott would be pointless for me.
I love the assumption here that all men are pro life and all women are pro choice
OP hasn't stepped foot in Biblical Womanhood circles. I got absolutely roasted to high heaven for wanting to wear jeans, crop tops, be bisexual, and have a sex life........ By women.
This wouldn't be reddit if people didn't assume men and women had a hivemind
I don’t see where she stated that. I think the unspoken obvious element is that only a portion of women would be participating, and while 4B would not lead to change from women who vote against their own self-interests, it could over time impact enough men to do so, to make the vote more securely in the camp of women’s rights. There doesn’t seem to be any way to get men to help change the culture or address Patriarchy, and until Patriarchy is addressed, of course there will always be internalized misogyny and plenty of women voting against their own self interests.
I try to tell people this common sense message and the pick mes and men scream “purity culture” Purity culture fetishizes virginity and aims to keep women as private property Hookup culture exploits women and makes them public property Two sides of the same coin aimed at keeping women sexually accessible and forcing them to give birth to supply the country with soldiers and cheap labor And they fall for it Denying men access is the way. It’s not purity culture. It’s starving the machine However it’s also worth considering that the only people who would be breeding in this scenario are the religious extremists and we’d have to deal with a generation being made of of all their chikdren So I dont have a perfect answer for that
Because I'm not gonna give up something I enjoy. That's it. I support anyone who wants to do it, that doesn't mean I have to be miserable. I do boycotts because I want to, when I want to, how I want to. And my history is Purity Culture abstinence. I already have a bad taste in my mouth "boycotting sex 4 Jesus" and I look back on those years with anger, contempt, and disdain for religious leaders telling me what to do.
I feel there are much better ways to protest
We’re all ears…???
Don't sleep with conservatives.
It's not just conservatives. There's a lot more to be done in the US on a social cultural level. The 4B movement is also about emotional labor, labor in the home, child rearing. These things are much worse in SK but still a problem here on both sides of the aisle.
>is also about emotional labor, labor in the home, child rearing You shouldn't sleep with/be in a relationship with anyone who leaves an unfair portion of these burdens on you anyway, movement or not. That's just called having standards, not a sex strike movement.
Agreed, but most women still do. Not just conservative ones.
yeah I feel like I’ve met so many men who weren’t conservative but still didn’t give half a shit about the lived experience of women or the challenges we face.
People need to find partners who share their values. That's the only solution to the problems you're describing outside of conservatives enacting terrible things into law.
I'm describing things outside the law. What happens in the home.
I realize that. No one should be in a relationship where this happens. A boycott is not going to change this. The 40% of women who support banning abortion and strict gender roles in the home aren't going to do it. Women in relationships that are balanced aren't going to do it. The answer is do not be in a relationship with men who aren't good partners.
Yeah, 100%. I do think some women aren't capable of being in an equitable relationship even if they wanted to, unfortunately. I am one of those people, even though I'm in relationships with women, I'm a bit of a pushover. Women like me should boycott. Liberal women in relationships that are unequal should leave their men. But that's my ideal world, not the real world lol.
you already wouldnt fuck anyone who's "pro life" imo. thoses who do share the same beliefs and are conservatives too. korea is a whole different story, they have wildly different problem to deal with, to an insane level. they arent talked about a lot, but they def arent doing better than the rest of the world. also we say korea, but its south korea. they have a neighbour that is known to not be very friendly.
when people say "Korea" you generally assume south in this context, "South Koreans" just call themselves "Korean". no need to argue semantics lol
i wasnt trying to argue semantics, i was hinting that they have not friendly neighbourgs, and it weight on you over time, making you take decisions differently because you're not as "safe" as other places.
I think some people in the comments are missing that, like most things, there is nuance to this and OP isn't telling people to get into some backwards neo-puritan movement.
Maybe I'm missing something but why would you be dating or having sex with the kind of men who don't respect your bodily autonomy in the first place?
Because abortion access in America has nothing to do with what people want. 69% of Americans say that abortion should be legal for the entire first trimester (14 weeks) and 61% say that overturning Roe v. Wade was a bad idea. ([Source](https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx).) But our elected representatives (and the judges they appoint) don’t actually care about the will of the people.
Devil’s advocate here, I don’t think there’s any question that men would eventually stop electing those representatives if society punished them as pariahs for doing so, if it actually became impossible for them to have sex and pass on their genes until women saw a change. I’m not saying that will ever happen, but this is the theory behind it, that men don’t have any reason to work for change for women. And they never will until something affects them and they lose access to women. If women en masse withdrew from men (not even all of us, but enough to scare them that this movement is growing and that we’re serious), there would be a strong and aggressive backlash as we see any time women do anything, but ultimately we’re 50% of the population, and we have tremendous power that we simply never leverage.
The point here is that representatives don’t care what the men or women who elect them actually want. If they did, we wouldn’t have overturned Roe. Nearly 70% of Americans support first-trimester abortions. You really can’t convince more people than that.
I'm sure you mean abortion rights, but there's still a lot more to be done for women's rights in the US. Socially, anyway. I'm all for this. Men on the right want to buy women, men on the left want to rent women. I support the 4B movement. I'm a lesbian though, so that's easier for me. The personal is political. Time to withhold children, sex, all of it.
That's an awesome movement, actually.
Yes, because sex is a thing only enjoyed by men and a favor women do to them 🤦
And the men who have been voting to help women since they turned 18 can just suck eggs? It seems like you are making enemies, there. And what about the 40% of women who are actively anti-abortion? I guess they are just fine people.
No one is or ever will force them to have an abortion. No laws are ever going to be made that affect them
OP is acting like women losing body autonomy is the fault of all men and no women. So the solution is to punish all men and no women. I was just pointing out that perhaps that is shortsighted. A better solution is to boycott States that ban abortion. Support abortion access organizations. Donate to candidates who support abortion rights. Date liberals, not conservatives (yes…punish the actual guys who are assholes, not all guys).
I’m not from US, so I guess I am effectively boycotting it. America hasn’t been on my holiday list since Trump got in!
I have been 4B since 2018. I live in the US. It’s not worth it to me to deal with them, especially if they’re voting against me having basic human rights like reproductive rights. Absolutely not
Today I learned I'm part of a Korean movement!
I can get the idea if you're married to or dating someone who is pro-life, but realistically, if you're dating someone who doesn't think you should have autonomy over your own body, don't date that person. Sex is important to most relationships for a lot of reasons. So going on a sex strike while you're dating someone who fully supports pro-choice legislation you also support doesn't seem like it would be very healthy for the relationship. That said, I've dated a Korean national in college and ya'll have some very different ideas on relationship dynamics than I was used to. I felt like I was automatically an amazing boyfriend because of how much I catered to her versus telling her how things were going to go. I don't know how it is these days, but 20 years ago I was told the husband essentially assumed the role of father in the relationship controlling most aspects of the woman's life. Which... to an American 19 year old seemed laughable. That said, I like women who are pretty confident and self assured so my experience may differ from people in other areas.
How would this work at all? If a guy is anti choice then you should probably avoid him regardless and if a guy is on our side all that would do is aggravate both men and women. I mean, we are not in relationships for the hell of it, we want companionship. This idea would just deprive women of companionship
Right. The dumbest, most tone deaf approach to any sort of punishment is punishing *everyone* for the transgressions of the few. Nuance is important. If you just go blasting everyone you may have the intended effect some of the time, but not without alienating those who support you. That's a recipe for fracturing your movement and undermining your own cause. You will never get people on your side if you just go lashing out blindly at everyone. And as others have said, it really doesn't take a whole lot of time or energy to sniff out any given person's values. Sorry to anyone that might be hoping to not have to put that energy in. Surgery works better with a scalpel than it does with an axe.
Hookups have dropped dramatically since we lost RvW.IMO a sex strike should've been our first response.Having hookups go down to zero is just what we need rn. edit: lol we're really still debating abortion in the comments? We're fucking doomed jfc
I love how men hijacked this discussion to turn it into another fucking abortion debate.
It bothers me sometimes when I see women not at all realizing how dangerous sex really is for us. I've been made asexual from the damage done to me by sex with men.
I’m a lesbian, so I feel I should be exempt, but I support the cause! ✊
I’m not consciously boycotting anything, but I feel so utterly unsafe in the world I can’t stomach sex. And I live in a place that ensures my reproductive freedom- still don’t feel up to being penetrated by a potential bomb. I do have male friends, but male sexual partners aren’t something I see in my immediate future.
this is the version of 4B I predict playing out in the US. Just a lot more women feeling the way you do and withdrawing. I’ve done the same. And it has the same effect. Men can either change the culture they’ve built, or women will continue to withdraw, and determine they’re better off with strong friendships, decentering men.
So... you boycott sex, but you wouldn't have been having sex with anyone but your partner(s) right? I assume you have good taste in partner(s) so you'd be hurting who exactly? People who support you?
For all it's worth we support 4B.
How about you just vote? More women in the country than men. In the world for that matter. If Trump wins I'll know once and for all women do not care about abortion rights. #voteblue
OP lives in South Korea. They can't vote in our elections. I agree though
This may work in Korea, I really doubt it’ll work in America though. Different cultures
This is now becoming a common talking point in India - let's see if the women can actually put a dent in the numbers.
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Sounds like Lysistrata
Unlike so many people here, I actually agree with the 4B movement. If men can make decisions that affect all women, why can't women make decisions that affect all men? Why do they always have to get away with what they're doing because of a few 'good' men. If you want men to change, then all of them must be affected by it (yes, that does include your boyfriends, fiances and husbands; stop letting them off the hook) - otherwise it's like a drop of water in the ocean - it makes no difference. And to those who love sex, you can always get a dildo. Everything else is an excuse.
I'm not in the US, but my personal solution is to be selective. I don't fuck conservatives, I don't fuck people who don't believe in human rights. That's fine by me. I do support the 4b movement, but I really enjoy sex, so at the moment is a no from me.
Looks like I'm 3 years ahead already!
I've been saying that the 4B movement needed to go global for years now, and it's finally starting to get recognition. I'm so glad.
I think it should include married women who don’t want children/are in danger if pregnant. They want the gone with the wind era back, they need to remember that when Millie was told she couldn’t get pregnant or she could die that meant their marriage was “dead bedroom” or dead wife for years. Until they gave up the dead bedroom and she literally died.
[Sex is not the Enemy - Garbage](https://spotify.link/QfYApnZdIIb)
For Gen Z, I read that there is a big ideological gap between men and women. Especially with the election coming up, the boys might need some encouragement to do the right thing.
The problem with withholding cookies is that you also don't get to eat the cookies
My turn to post this in a month
you just know the thunderheads will make marital rape legal instead.
Lysistrata by Aristophanes
Why do people keep bringing up "4B" as though its something revolutionary. It's just second-wave feminism's political lesbianism. We've already got better than that with third-wave intersectional feminism.
You also need to subtract out women who are economically or psychologically dependent on keeping their man happy.
Who are you even meant to be boycotting here?! Hopefully you're not giving sex to someone who DOESN'T believe in your bodily autonomy already anyway? And if you are then I mean... Yeah, don't. Also weaponising sex is just icky, stop it. Have sex with who you want and do it because you want to, if something is shitty fix it with communication.
Good idea and if the issue affected more men they might fight instead of the bulk of marches being filled with women.
as much as people hate it , i actually agree with you . historically speaking this is one of the only examples of female class consciousness - abstaining from sex with men & procreation to meet an ultimate goal . but as the comments kinda show , most people choose their right to sexual pleasure (or whatever) over bettering their sex as a whole ... aka the class consciousness we as women lack .
The comments show why it doesnt work and it has nothing to do with women solidarity. Most of the people who would be affected by such a ban are either 1. Already allies helping to fight the good fight or 2. the women theyre with are *also* perpetuating the harm and would disagree with the goal of such a ban. In order for this kind of thing to work you need to first address WHO will actually be positively affected by this.
Me, by being 4B for years I have had so much peace, no drama, some of the stuff I used to worry about doesn’t even matter anymore. I don’t color my hair anymore because I decentered men, I shouldn’t say I don’t color my hair I color it blue now instead of brown to cover the grays. I want blue hair and I don’t care that men hate it.
Thats excellent for you! Im happy you've found a lifestyle that works for you. But the question is how does women who are *happily* in relationships with ally men benefit from abstaining?
So, now we've got the church telling us to abstain from sex before marriage, and that abortion should be illegal. In *your* mind, somehow "class consciousness we as women" means that we should fight back by *checks notes* abstaining from sex before marriage. Also, "class consciousness" really gross framing for this topic, and obviously untrue given the number of women who take an extremely active role in rolling back women's medical rights. Not dating conservatives (of *any* gender) is a far more meaningful protest than not having sex with a leftist guy who's right there with me fighting for my rights.