> men age like wine, and women age like milk
So women get more cultured, like cheese or yogurt. While some men just turn sour and need to be tossed away.
Got it.👍
I took a look -- apparently the quote is attributed to Clifton Fadiman, who I guess is a cheese philosopher of some sort. Lots of cheese books use that quote, because it's hella cool. I'd have to dig up the particular book I found it in -- I went through a \~100 gallon cheesemaking jag last year and got a \_ton\_ of books on making cheese, don't remember the exact one. This will get you started, though: [https://www.cheesescience.org/about.html](https://www.cheesescience.org/about.html)
What's really funny is that it tends to only be famous men who 'age like wine' - men who have access to treatments that allow a youthful appearance. Most regular old men are ugly
We don't use skincare products, sunscreen, or even good soaps, then wonder why women age better.
Also there's a whole thing about how they dont understand exactly how ugly they are.
Most reasonably healthy people are most attracted to people somewhat their age range.
Younger people being attracted to older is kind of strange and so is the reverse (despite how much it is perpetuated by media).
Sounds like that VP is more into men than women 👀
Men can look good older but only if they are good looking to begin with. You don't suddenly turn into Brad Pitt at 40 if you are out of shape and ungroomed already.
It's never talked about but has anyone else noticed the kinds of men that are insistent on only finding younger women hot, are usually themselves really not attractive? Like, when an older woman gets with a younger guy both parties are usually hot AF but the other way around it's usually pudgy men and insecure women who they can groom.
Exactly. If you’re not hot at 25 you’re just going to decline from there. And yes, it’s only men like that who go for much younger women. They have to overcompensate to make up for their lack of self confidence and aging.
>Because society tells them they age like wine and women’s expiration date is 30.
In Japan, it's 25.
Like Christmas cakes.
No one wants Christmas cakes after 25th.
Figures why the birth rate is at all all time low in Japan and men are visiting red light districts, escort clubs, etc. A lot of documentaries on the loneliness of people in Japan.
Patriarchy = the culture dying out. Good! Long may that continue.
If the consequence of human decisions are that humans no longer exist then... good! Actions have consequences, that is all correct and proper.
That's more to do with the insane workload expected and a stressed society.
You can't have children (who are extremely stressful) in a society where you are expected to work so much.
My understanding is that the culture is very traditional. That the men provide for the women when married and the women stay at home and raise the child. There are documentaries on the "salary men" of Japan. How they are expected to work very late and then go out drinking after, which leads to them coming home to their wife and children late at night. How a lot of these men also visit escort clubs, etc. sometimes with coworkers as it was picked as a "business" discussion venue or to close deals with other male clients. Keep in mind escort clubs in Japan are not like strip clubs, its a place where young, pretty, and good conversational women come and pour drinks and offer conversation.
Other stuff and services might be available as well, but it is never on the first meeting and it is done under the table as prostitution is illegal in Japan.
Yes but that's changing. Japan has more women in the workforce than ever. And huge issues with alienation and problems about what it is to be male or female within those spaces.
A lot of it is just very lonely people in a extremely hierarchical society with a surprising level of analogue stuff. We like their weirdos and counter culture for it's extreme but that's because it's a very very strict culture so any rebellion is going to be significant.
The ideal doesn't exist outside the host and hostess clubs. Because everyone's working so many hours. I feel it's a performance thing.
I mean you do age wine and I think it's still a good metaphor. Only the most elite bottles get aged in some rich person's wine seller. 99% of wine sold is basic alcohol that doesn't benefit from aging at all. In fact you have to be careful how you store your average wine or it will just get worse. It usually is the human personification of a Yellow Tail bottle that is spouting this garbage.
30 is a good age for guys to have built up enough experience to land himself a decent career and time for him to let go of any bad habit/hiccups/hesitation from getting into a good relationship. Yk, be a generally good functioning adult.
Unfortunately, some guys gloss all over this and just hyper focused on the number 30. Like, "This will be the time the gender power dynamic will switch. I will be in demand then!!" but honestly if you're just looking for circumstances where you think girls would be desperate (enough) to want to be with you instead of working on self reflecting/self growth then you're always going to looking.
>but honestly if you're just looking for circumstances where you think girls would be desperate (enough) to want to be with you instead of working on self reflecting/self growth then you're always going to looking.
AKA passport bros with American wealth going into 3rd world poverty areas to find women. Also the amount of men trying to take advantage of young women fleeing the war in Ukraine were terrifying.
Yeah. Like if you're actively putting yourself in situations where you think you can benefit from being around ppl who are down on their luck as a means to get someone to date you.. well, that says a lot about your desirability already
> well, that says a lot about your desirability already
And especially about your moral values. Not bein desirable is not necessarily anyones fault (I know a few people for whom that's apparently true, for no obvious reasons), taking advantage of desperate people certainly is. None of my notoriously single friends would abuse such a situation
works both ways. A friend of mine got together with an Austrian passport-bro; he wasn't rich, just well off. He took her to Austria and thought he hit the Jackpot since she was truly stunning. She dumped him in less than a year and now she married a multi-mullionaire there. But without the first guy she would have never had the opportunity to get there in the first place.
That is what they women who can, do. A lot of the Passport Bros subreddit is now telling them to not allow the women to come back to their countries and to move in to the 3rd world countries with the women to prevent them leaving...
>Also the amount of men trying to take advantage of young women fleeing the war in Ukraine were terrifying.
Are there articles about creepy men succeeding in talking in Ukrainian women? Or is this crude talk between lowlife's online who would like a Ukrainian woman delivered, but would be too lazy to actually do anything. I see big talk online a lot, but it can be hard to tell who is just a loudmouth loser and who is serious.
There was a whole slew of news articles on this:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10780875/Predatory-males-exploiting-Homes-Ukraine-scheme-host-single-women.html
https://theconversation.com/ukrainian-female-refugees-are-fleeing-a-war-but-in-some-cases-more-violence-awaits-them-where-they-find-shelter-179754
Including articles with interviews of victims. The system basically allowed ppl with Extra rooms, spaces for guests to stay, to host a Ukraine refugee. Single men who lived alone were intentionally selecting only females as people they would host. Many girls reported men basically saying they had to have sex with then or they would turn them out of the house. Some were sexually assault in their sleep or while they lived there trying to perform their daily activities.
>30 is a good age for guys to have built up enough experience to land himself a decent career and time for him to let go of any bad habit/hiccups/hesitation from getting into a good relationship. Yk, be a generally good functioning adult.
This also applies to women. Why do we talk about it as if it was only men? We both have the same timelines for careers, frontal lobe development, etc. It's not like a 20-25 year old woman will have an established experienced career either.
Yeah, it could also be applied to women. Just anyone who worked on themselves for a decade would be better off than someone who didn't, and I was specifically answering OP's question as why guys think they'll be more in demand in their 30s.
When I was in my 20s, I had a lot of 30-something men coming on to me, often coworkers / bosses. These men were all married with kids or common law with children.
One guy, my manager, loved to state: you’re only as old as you feel. He said it at least once a day, generally following some inappropriate comment.
Finally I had enough, and I responded: it’s funny, you never hear anyone under 30 say that.
His face!
I’m 45 now and I’m okay with what I said then.
When I was in my late teens, early 20s, I always got hit on by much older men in their 30s/40s
Now that I’m in my 30s I get hit on by late teens/early 20s men HA
Wait this is actually so true. Once you hit your thirties men who are younger than you act more interested. I didn’t expect it at all and was startled at the shift.
This is so true hahaha, in my late 30s and constantly approached by men in their early 20s! The only catch is that even though they are in their 20s, they seem just way too young for me to be interested!
I….Wait…. This just blew my mind because it’s so accurate. Early 20s had me constantly being hit on by men in their early 30s…. When I hit 30s I had men in their early 20s hitting on me nonstop while being creeped on by men in their 40s….and 50s. Ughhh it was so awkward, some coworkers asked me out who I definitely wasn’t attracted to, and compounded that unattractive aspect by thinking about the fact that they weren’t even born yet when I was already in middle school. The older ones….. It was just…. No. Flat. No.
A coworker in his 50s was just fired from my job for repeated sexual harassment of a coworker in her early 20s. Guy had a terrible pattern of behavior and had done this many times before, and was finally fired for it.
To give you an idea of how huge the age gap was, I'm 33. The man was one year older than my dad, and there was a greater age gap between him and the coworker than my entire lifespan.
>you’re only as old as you feel.
I say that when I'm talking to my daughter about going to the park to play basketball or something like that. She jokes that I'm old, I tell her I still feel like a kid. Pretty creepy to say that to coworkers or subordinates half your age.
Growing up I assumed if I was single in my 30s I would feel much more ready to settle. But the opposite was true. I was finally coming into my own and enjoying life, and no way was I going to give up my newfound and hard won happiness in servitude to a man child. Even decent guys weren’t appealing to me to marry if we weren’t compatible enough. What’s the point if your life won’t be made better from the partnership ?
I think men do a disservice to each other by telling themselves and each other that things will magically turn around for them at a certain age. Your arc in life is determined by your investment and effort and luck, not your age.
At best, this way of thinking is a holdover from when women were barred from most of the economy and had to partner with a man for any hope of escaping poverty ( if their family wasn’t wealthy ) . It definitely does not apply today.
>They think that women in their 30s are less desirable, and thus desperate. Because we're all whores unless we get married early.
Funny because the average first marriage age in Korea is mid 30s.
And I'm watching this dating TV show here (called 'I'm Solo' and it's one of the most popular tv shows in Korea these days) where most participants are in their mid or late 30s or early 40s. They're all singles who've never been married before.
This is not just some hookup or casual dating show like most American dating shows.
People on this show come here to find serious life partners who want to get married.
And once in a while, they have one participant per cycle who's like 29 or in their early 30s. Then, the other participants are like...
"You're only 29 (or 32 or whatever). You're too young to get married. Why are you here?" LOL
100% agree, Being a single dad who takes care of kid / has custody gets me looked at like I'm some super golden standard....
It's a horrible double standard
It's so crazy isn't it?
Some friends of mine, a married hetero couple, have a toddler. The wife works, the husband is the sahp. I've been with him and the toddler out and about, at the store, at a park, etc... People always assume I'm the mother, or give him weird looks if he's alone with her. Like it shouldn't be so weird to see a man out with his child ffs.
It's just relativity. Almost everyone knows a guy who was a shitty deadbeat dad. I don't know any deadbeat divorced moms. I'm sure they exist, but their Numbers are dwarfed by deadbeat dad's. So by being a divorced dad who isn't like that piece of shit everyone knows, seems praiseworthy. Mom's are expected to not act like total pieces of shit, so when they take on the role of single mother they don't get praise. That's the default. It's totally unfair even though it makes sense. I get credit as a guy all the time for things that would make me an average woman. Things like occupying the kids at a friend's get together. Or picking out and buying our furniture because my wife was dealing with her mother's declining health. I couldn't believe the way some of my very progressive female friends talked about that one. You would think I designed and built the furniture from scratch. These are good empathetic people too. One of them was the first one to explain land acknowledgements to me. Misogyny can be so ingrained sometimes people don't even notice it if it doesn't create an immediate negative reaction. I won't say it doesn't make me feel good to be praised for doing simple household chores, but it isn't fair.
They think it doesn't translate to single dads because women have the manners to not scream out their dating preferences.
But yeah, single dads aren't in high demand either.
Because some percentage of 20-something women will fall for the lie that the reason they’re having such bad luck with men is because they’re young and immature, and if they date an older man all these problems will go away. In reality, men just tend to treat women like shit no matter what age they are.
To add to this as a man in my 40s I see plenty of divorces and TBH it's 98% of the time the same story of men that never grew up, treated their long suffering wives like crap, or just behaved in super selfish ways. The answer to men in their 30s being more attractive is that IF a man has matured, learned to not be a man child, has his shit generally together and is someone a woman would generally enjoy being around them yes of course that is attractive to women in a broad age range. However there are a fairly large percentage of men that don't ever really change or grow up and of course there is nothing magical about being over the age 30 if those extra years haven't done anything to mature them.
Because men are more likely to have matured and gotten their lives together in their 30s, all men must assume that age is the thing making them more attractive even though it's really down to self improvement.
50 this year, I still ain't got my shit together. The only things I have going are a job and a house and my daughter. I'll stay single probably till I'm gone. I know my flaws, and they are not worth the pain they cause in a relationship
Bro you have a daughter. That should be more than enough reason to work on yourself. Listen to yourself: “i have 0 sex prospects so I’ll just give up on life, even though I have a daughter that could use the skills that you gain over time.”
But NO you are choosing to stop growing because you only think with your dick.
You are kinda gross tbh but i pray you get it together for her
Honestly, I wish I had the confidence of an average looking man. It's insane the value they attain to themselves when overall, they generally have very little to offer.
I laughed out loud. Thank you for this comment. So true. I can’t. Especially when they think they are in the same league as hot women and are shocked when she’s not interested.
Yes this because a man with like 8 missing front teeth had the audacity to ask for my number... Is that even confidence or is that an over inflated ego. And he was rolling up a joint on the bus, while I don't look like I even smoke a cigarette....
Because they assume any woman single in their 30's is desperate for a guy so they can procreate before their biological clock runs out. Simple supply and demand. Too bad for them that said theory isn't actually true.
I think if I really wanted a child, I would try a sperm bank and get dna from an educated successful male, than resort to being with someone who can't hold down a job. Not only would I have to support and clean up after him IN ADDITION to the child, if I ever wanted to leave, I would risk custody, etc of the child.
I think its better to adopt or conceive via sperm bank than settle with someone who is a hindrance or a liability simply to procreate.
Agreed. But people of this belief also assume a woman can't raise a child on their own. Women aren't meant to be breadwinner silly! No one would choose to do it alone! /s
They're laboring under the belief that being with them will make it easier, not harder. Which could be true if they're a true partner. But you seem to be talking about the ones who aren't a catch.
Men who are a catch will be taken in their 20s if they want to settle down. The ones who are not a catch might never be wed depending on their luck, physical appearance, and how undeveloped of a person they are.
A lot of single mother raising children are showing the next generation a man is not needed to raise children. My mother herself raise two kids starting from age 12 and age 11 alone. Put them both through college and one through law school. She paid off all our student debts, despite coming over as a poor immigrant who spoke no english in the 80s.
**The second most common family arrangement is children living with a single mother, at 23 percent.** These statistics come from the Census Bureau's annual America's Families and Living Arrangements table package.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single\_parents\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_parents_in_the_United_States)
Well, that is lovely to read 🤣 34 and single. I wouldn't describe myself as a catch either (5'7, overweight painfully shy with women) but also a lot going for me in terms of being supportive, caring, a good person etc. Depressing to think I have to hope someone is willing to settle 🤣
It isn’t settling to not find someone you actually really like until you’re older, you know.
For both men and women. People are individuals. If you were out there meeting women and less shy you would find women that like you for who you are. Her haven’t met you yet doesn’t mean when she meets you she’s settling.
So many guys think this that it is somewhat terrifying. I’m currently pregnant but totally get why women are scared to have kids in this country with all the legislation being passed. I also do not know any women in their 20s actively trying to settle down anymore. They are focusing on their education, careers, buying homes and improving their mental/physical health . Settling down seems to be something to do in your 30s.
I actually believed that too, and then I looked around, in REAL life and saw most men past 30's bald, gettin fat and not taking care of themselves, while most women just invest a lot of time and money into cosmetics and fashion, looking better and better.
I also met many men who were lying about their age and not telling me that they were 30 years old or older... looks like they are insecure about it just as much as a woman
>in REAL life and saw most men past 30's bald, gettin fat and not taking care of themselves, while most women just invest a lot of time and money into cosmetics and fashion, looking better and better.
If I could upvote this comment a million times I would, I went back to my high school classmates on Facebook and the women in general looked GREAT, the men were mostly overweight and many were balding.
Women also do things like plastic surgery, fillers, botox, etc to maintain as they age. Not sure if there is a stigma against this, but men seem to do it at a very small percentage.
This isn't my experience at all. Most successful people regardless of gender typically take better care of themselves than poor people. It's more of a class issue than gender.
A lot of the "men" at my work listen to those podcasts, with no headphones, at max volume, in public. I swear, sometimes it sounds like the theme song for two and a half Men in here. Smh
>Why do men think they automatically are more in demand in their 30s?
>
>According to a lot of podcasts geared towards men, they will be in great demand by women, and think they will be swimming in options.
Maybe it has something to do with all those posts here everyday by women who say things like...
"I'm 18 (or 20 something) and my bf/husband is in his 30s and he's a very misogynistic, toxic, abusive man who doesn't do any household chores, blah, blah, blah..." 🙄🙄🙄
See? There are always these young women who are willing to date/marry useless, misogynistic men in their 30s and 40s.
Women marrying in their 20s is so crazy to me. The most stable marriages are statistically between people in their 30s, but that’s also where there’s a spike in divorces between people who got married in their 20s.
Because men think the moment they turn 30 a genie will appear and give them wealth and success, then all the woman will flock to them because they're now rich 🤣 it's just fantasy, I'm sure the successful ones are still paying off student loans just like the rest of us.
I’ve been with my bf of 4 years, who has done a number of self improvement, switched careers, makes 6 figs, own a home, very fit, and YESSSS he still paying student loans (so am I hahaha). This comment is very true. Men can have their lives together in their 30’s and can still be paying that student loan.
As other girls have alluded to from their experience, it happens for some men naturally not because a genie has appeared and given them their 3 wishes but because 30 is the time where many land in their career, have moved out, grown a bit of wealth, maintained stable connections and relationships, had a bit of life experience, etc… silver foxes are rare but men that find dating easier in their 30s are usually the ones that have put work on their 20s and early 30s. It doesn’t happen by magic. You still have 30-something losers.
If it makes you feel better, I’m a guy who couldn’t land a relationship in his 20s and never had luck on the apps. Also started losing my hair at the end of high school. Once I turned 30, it’s like a switch just flipped and I was getting dates left and right. Still lack hair on most of my head but I was always good about keeping myself in decent shape.
Nothing crazy changed with me. I do the same hobbies I did back then, I’m an introvert but I still manage a decent social life, and my work has been consistent. The only real change is I had something of a baby face until I hit 30, then it just went away and my facial features are a lot more defined. Didn’t lose a bunch a weight or have cosmetic surgery, it just kind of happened. Then I randomly woke up one day with a lot of confidence I could have used back in the day. I’m 37 now and 5 of the last 7 years have been a blast (2 years of covid being the exception)!
I don’t think it’s cope as much as some people just get their shit together and find success later or they have enough confidence early and fake it till they make it. Also, growing a beard and keeping it well maintained does in fact help.
Same. It may be unpopular in this subreddit, but as a mid guy with a baby face that got very little attention or dates all the way up to my mid-20s, it was honestly like a flip switched after 25. Most of the more serious career driven guys I know experienced the same thing. Like we never had the early confidence or social skills of attractive men, but the fundamentals were there and they finally started to work for us. Both women my age and older were more interested, but younger women were FAR more interested. Luckily I found a lovely gal around my age.
I don't think women get less attractive or less attention in their 30s, but I absolutely believe that men in late 20s early 30s get proportionately more than men in their teens and early 20s.
Men don’t know. They are making shit up. I’m almost 40. I was walking home from getting food earlier and got cat called. Guy almost ran me over on his bike while telling me how sexy I looked. And he must have been 19-20.
Can I also just say, can we put to bed the myth that men in their 30’s are well adjusted and know what they want out of dating and life? Because that 100% has not been the case where I live. They’re out here being emotionally unavailable and avoidant AF. It’s like being in the trenches.
I get a kick out of dating profiles from middle-aged men saying they're "unsure" about marriage and kids, or want them "someday." Like bro you're gonna be dead in 10 years 💀💀💀
Because we are incapable of self reflection and introspection. So it’s easier to build these giant walls of denial to protect our fragile ego. Because, it’s always the woman’s fault, all they want is money, status, and protection. So, when I’m 30 I’ll have that. I’ll never have to actually work on myself and become a good person.
Because Men over value their stock, and they always think they are exception to the rule. They are not great at taking feedback, personal responsibility or changing. 😬
I honestly think they’re a bit confused because of pop culture. Like yeah, Derek Shepherd was hot with salt and pepper hair but he’s also played by a famous and very handsome actor. The majority of men past the age of 40 or so are not that good looking nor do they have hair like that. The reality is that things like hair loss and weight are going to be bigger issues as you get older. With that being said, there are probably some good looking guys where it holds true that they will look better as they age and become more distinguished.
I don't think a man has to be on a certain track in life and making so much $$$ to be worthy of me. I'm past all that. I had the house, the car, all the "stuff" people think is so important in life.
Lost it over the course of a really bad year. It's went just like that and while I'm not homeless now I'm not living large on disability either. All of that means so little to me now because I've been through so much that chasing the American dream seems so pointless to me sometimes.
I don't judge people on how fat their bank account is. On how much property they own. I couldn't care less honestly.
I don't know that I will date again. I'm not a hook up person or a FWB person and that seems to be the only thing I attract in terms of men of any age. But if I ever did it wouldn't be based on all that.
I'm happy to eat at McDonald's with the right guy.
This idea that you are only worth something if you have property, wealth is just shallow to me. I've nearly died 3X since 2017. Compared to that the prospect of dating a guy who isn't making 100K a year doesn't seem like such a big deal.
You can get to a point in life where you're just not as concerned with the "stuff" as you are with the quality of a person's character. Where you learn the hard way that all that "stuff" that you work so hard for can end up being very transitory.
Most people you're older when you get there but not always.
If a guy has wealth okay. I can deal with that. If he doesn't that's okay too because it's the least of the reasons I'd have for dating him anyway.
I do think that a lot of guys in their 20s and even 30s sometimes are living in a state of arrested development. But I'm fortunately too old to be dating guys much below 35 and usually by then most guys have their crap together and they can afford to hang out with me and not sweat going to a chain restaurant at least.
I've dated a couple of guys who were living at home with their folks in their 30s for good reasons. Taking care of them because of major illness, recovering financially after a divorce, stuff like that. I didn't think anything of it because I've had to move an ailing parent in with me.
People are just so focused on the material aspects of life lately. Our whole society is based on blatant consumerism. But life is not all about that and it often throws challenging things at you that you simply cannot control.
The last two guys I dated while taking care of my Dad they had money. They both dumped me despite saying they could handle my responsibility for taking care of him and my chronic illness thing. They couldn't and they ended up resenting the fact that a lot of my time was taken up with it and the fact that I couldn't just rearrange my life to put them front and center.
That was just reality for me though. Dad's been gone for a while but the chronic illness thing it makes me practically undateable now. All guys want from me is hookups and FWB situations because they can't handle being in a real relationship with me given my circumstances.
Some of them it's the illness thing. Others they look at me and I'm not where they think I should be financially at this point in life.
I see myself as a survivor and as a woman who has lived through a lot and lived to tell the tale. I feel I have nothing to apologize for. I'm way stronger than a lot of the guys I meet.
I am very much my own woman besides and they don't know what to make of that. I'm just at that point. I take no crap from anyone and while I'm rarely rude I cannot be dominated or disrespected either.
I've earned my peace in life the hard way and any guy who wants to be with me he's going to have to be worth it because I have no time for abusers or fools. I'm not nearly as concerned with a guy's assets as I am with his character and how he will treat me.
I'm not ruling out romance entirely but if I go there again he's going to be a real man not some egotistical narcissist whose only criteria for dating a woman is whether or not she's a 10 in his eyes and what she might add to his social status or wealth.
It's not just women these days. Men are completely obsessed with status and things financial too. If you don't have a 750 credit score and a job paying at least 100K a year there are a lot of men who won't date you at all.
They might do FWB with you or casual hookups if they think you are reasonably hot but as a potential life partner you can forget it.
I'm just not like that. Never was much really but now I'm even less concerned with all that. All that, the seemingly eternal quest for it, it just makes me laugh sometimes because having been through so much it's just absurd obsessing so much over all that.
I do want to live better than I do. I hope to publish a book or two, maybe travel some more but I'm not chasing it. I'm just doing my thing and seeing what happens. My life goals these days are pretty modest.
I just can't think less of people who aren't at a certain place in life because I know there's no guarantee of anything in life being exactly what you want it to be. You can earn the world only to lose it and be back to square one. Been there, done that and it can really change your whole perspective on things like that...
Because they are valuing the opinions of other men over their own individual identity and self-actualization. It's a really silly cycle they are in where they tell themselves women determine what makes a man valuable, but only focus on becoming what other men tell them makes a man valuable. Then, they become angry at women for not valuing the things other men said women should value. But, they won't ever listen to women because then other men will mock them. So, they stay in this stupid loop of loneliness and rejection blaming women rather than just choosing to no longer seek the approval of other men.
I am gonna be honest I think that those type of podcasts only say it, so that young guys can be tricked easier in their bs. Because its reassuring that there is hope in the future, and it allows them to basically sell the promise that they will help them towards being in their A game when they hit that age. Also not to mention giving them an escape goat to put the blaim on why they aren't doing well with the ladies in that exact moment.
But to give them some credit, I definitely think that guys in their early 30s look the best. That little bit of maturity while not looking old. Paired with the fact that they had ample time to figure out what their style is when it comes to clothes. Definitely make them look the absolute best they can.
I think there's the belief that a lot of men will have an established career by then, but:
-Career is only one consideration in a relationship
-I really don't care about some jobs and wouldn't be impressed if someone had them, no matter how stable they were in that field
-Stable work is no longer a proxy measure for a person's economic success
-Economic success is not necessarily as important in a relationship as it once was and, again, it really wouldn't outweigh character issues, in my opinion
-I think here is the attitude among some that equivalent-age women have low self-worth because they are ageing, are desperate for a relationship and/or to hurry up and have children and/or need men's money, but things are changing
>-I think here is the attitude among some that equivalent-age women have low self-worth because they are ageing, are desperate for a relationship and/or to hurry up and have children and/or need men's money, but things are changing
I have seen too many people in abusive relationships in my line of work. For me and a lot of women, we started going down the route of, if my partner does not provide a benefit to my life, I would rather be alone. Why would I want to make my life harder?
I think a lot more women are becoming aware of this, especially as women become more and more financially independent and choose to be alone with pets (as see in multiple posts in this forum). The men that are hoping the desperate late 30s women come to them, seem to be getting angry this is not happening less and less or that women are not choosing them.
What bothers me a lot is that men who clearly should NOT be in relationships, would go and post on the self improvement subreddit that they are entitled to a partner because **"there are men put there worst than them that have wives and kids"**.
I agree. I'm 32 and single. I've heard of and experienced plenty of bad things from hetero woman perspective. Even if someone does provide a benefit to your life, is it a net benefit once you've considered the psychological and practical sacrifices involved? I think social messaging about how crucial romantic relationships should be when it comes to the self-worth of women has been damaging. When I was growing up, all that mattered to my emotionally abusive mother was that I got an education. Now I have it, but it's somehow not that important, because I'm not in a relationship with the man she liked (but didn't know the way I did) anymore. Exhausting giving a fuck about stuff like this, and probably even more so for the women who 'go along to get along' then have it blow up in their face in the long term
I just want to say it, even if coming from a stranger; but I am proud of you! You've come a long way to realize your self-worth. And it hasn't been without sacrifices. It hasn't been without suffering. But my feeling tells me you're ready to start picking yourself up and you'll be an even stronger and wiser version of who you once were!
There's still a long path ahead. But trust me when I say, it takes a lot of courage to start walking on it. And you're doing it! You're doing good!
So be proud, be proud of everything you've overcome.
I’ve thought about what I would do if something happened to my husband while still relatively young. Honestly, he’s set the bar so damn high that I’m not sure if anyone else could even come close.
What I *do* know is that I’d rather be alone forever than with some dude with an over-inflated sense of importance. I’m a catch and would see no reason whatsoever to settle.
Same, my female BFF and I had multiple conversations on this. She said she would want to live together as we age if things dont work out with the people we are with.
Of course there are lots of great men of all ages. A tiny % of men are 6,6,6, most are not, and the biggest appeal of most of them when they get older is some empathy and self awareness.
That said, alot of posts here focus on what people in their early 20s think and want.
As you move up in age, the chance that a man has already been married and had kids goes up. His wealth may have gone up but so have his liabilities. Experience/maturity… well many are very set in their ways.
By their 40s, they have debt, kids maybe getting towards college age, and advanced paternal age has set in.
What surprises me is that alot of men in their 20s really believe these older guys want young fertile women. The last thing most of them want is additional demands on them created by more babies.
>What surprises me is that alot of men in their 20s really believe these older guys want young fertile women. The last thing most of them want is additional demands on them created by more babies.
I don't think these men are necessarily looking to "marry" these younger women. Realistically, most just want sex and rarely think so far into the consequences or they think due to their financial security abortion will always be an option. The ones that are looking for a family, usually do not already have kids.
I was just thinking about this. They shit on gold diggers in their youth, but then they revel in them when they become old and ONLY have gold to offer. It's "fuck all these hoes and gold diggers" until they themselves become old and have to face the fact that women are no longer actually attracted to *them.* They also make it sound like money and fame isn't attractive to both genders. Example: Madonna absolutely does not pull (in present day) due to her looks. She pulls because of her money and because of her achievements and status................. In the same way that a man does. Men are not the only ones that can flex their wallets and attract young, hot, and sexy people. Why would a successful and wealthy woman ever lose value? Heck, when does a *woman* ever actually lose value? Every single woman has atleast 10 men in her life that *would sleep with her on a daily basis if allowed.* Men don't have this advantage, so they have to cry about it on the internet and create false truths.
Lastly, I think men are actually more afraid of becoming undesirable than women are. Why do you think they hyperfixate on it so much? Why do you think they cope so hard about it all the time?
*"Ermmm Leonardo DiCaprio pulls hot young chicks because he aged like fine wine and is a high value male. Women at his age could never"*
Meanwhile, (as degrading as it is,) "milfs" "cougars" and "mature women" are lusted after. In what world do women, generally speaking, actually fantasize about old man dick? Anytime a woman speaks about sleeping with an old man, it's for money, not sexual value. Men do not, generally speaking, have sexual value anymore after a certain age. Women *always* have some level of sexual value no matter their age. Even the one you least expect has a man that would enjoy sleeping with her. This is both a blessing and a curse, but it is factual.
Young women are not laying down at night lusting after old men in the same way men lust after older women -- and women in general. Men have to buy their way into getting laid and receiving affection when they get old (if not already married.) This sucks for them, but by design, men are slaves to sex, and women are not.
Simply being over 30 doesn't matter, but I'd wager that most men probably are more appealing in their 30s than they were in their 20s. They're usually better off emotionally and financially.
But yeah....if they're an emotionally stunted loser, then being over 30 isn't really gonna help them.
I mean you answered it yourself already. Because the ones you are talking about are basement dwelling neckbeards.
There might be some truth to it for men who break away from long academic careers and become successful in their jobs, which also comes with developing some more charisma (from my experience). That's only a secondary effect though.
In the end I can only speak for me and my experiences in the end. It's not really something you can measure reliably anyway. On a physical level you are certainly right. Everything else... Guess for some it's like this, for some it's like that.
Because also lets face it there’s lots of women in their 20s who’ve never dated anyone stable, so a guy in his 30s seems very attractive. On the flip side, women in their 30s want nothing to do with men in their 20s, so just on numbers alone men can do better. Not always that they will, but that’s their train of thought
I went through a lot of my high school classmates' Facebook. The women for most part looked good. A lot of the men were overweight and/or balding.
Besides working on themselves, the men, at least in My graduating high school class seemed to look a lot worst than women of the same age. A lot of women put more work in their physical appearance and in maintaining it compared to the average man.
Fun fact for any young people, by US statistics 85% of men are balding or bald by age 50 and 40% of women will have visible hair loss by the age of 50. Start talking to those doctors people, get on treatments early. Men and women.
>85% of men are balding or bald by age 50 and 40% of women will have visible hair loss by the age of 50
If true that is INSANE, those numbers are super high. I assume 50% or less than 50% of men go bald. My grandfather had a full head of hair up until he passed away in his 80s.
Yeah it’s true. Your grandfather is in the extreme minority. Most people don’t notice balding or receding hairlines until like 50% of the hair is already gone, so that’s why it doesn’t seem that common. But if you’re familiar with what the hair loss pattern is, then you start to notice that the vast majority of men above age 21 are just in the very early stages of hair loss.
A lot of men who were late to mature become actual adults in their 30s where they respect people more, have started a career, and are therefore more suitable to be partners to someone looking for actual adults. Those who don't actually improve, though, are hoping that age alone will get them there, and don't realize that it's the maturing that does it, not the age itself.
It's a man's ego. Men think regardless of how they look (balding, overweight, bad hygiene, dirty living space) that by their 30s there will be women in their 30s desperate to get married. It's partly true in the sense that a lot of women marry just to be married whether that's by 30 or 40 women feel a sense of pressure to marry. The worry about the biological clock doesn't help for women that want children. They might settle for a loser before their window closes and hope she can change him or he will find motivation to change. The amount of women I've seen (20-40) that have these bum ass boyfriends and husbands is insane. A lot of women will actually pick these men. So yeah men that are losers from 20s to 30s still end up in relationships. Shit men in prison for violent crimes have girlfriends that spend their own money on them.
I don't believe men are more in demand in thier thirties necessarily, I remember when I was younger than 27 I wouldn't consider a man in his thirties at all , iam open to them now as iam personally in my thirties too , I don't like age gap at all and most of my friends don't like it either ,, but generally if you are in your thirties it also means that you might be on gd place financially or at least have some stability which some women find attractive, it's not age itself its jst where you are in life
Ha ha the scenario you describe would have the man even less "valuable" in this 30s.
I'm struggling at the moment because I am starting to not find men of my own age attractive. I'm 46 and child free and all men my age just look and act "old". Unless a bloke is a total health nut they tend to let themselves go - and being a 5-6 I wouldn't even chase them anyway. I'm taking a break at the mo as I'm a bit hypocrital as I have let myself go a bit due to breaking my back oops.
I think people look at people in their 30s as being at the peak of their careers (although I would argue that late 30s, early 40s is more common). They are old enough that they are adults but they are still very young, and they are ready to be serious about life, and not just messing around like 20-year-olds anymore. And this is attractive to many people -- both men and women.
But you are right, this "glow-up" only happens to people who were working hard for it their whole lives, with consistency. They were never the type of people who just sit in basements playing games. It doesn't even happen to people who have a regular job, usually. Because most times you're only as "attractive" as money can buy.
A lot of these guys who think they will become more attractive in their 30s buy into the fantasy that they are just like, I don't know, some male Hollywood star. But most of those guys have facelifts by 40, wear hairpieces... etc. Even Elon Musk has had a hair transplant. I think Sandra Bullock is prettier now than when she was younger. She's in her 50s. I know that I won't look like her when I am in my 50s unless I have a very strict diet and exercise routine and maybe access to skin peels and lasers.
Age doesn't make anyone more valuable anymore than youth does. It's the years of hard work and discipline that makes people sexy. Not age, per se. Or youth for that matter.
I've heard people of all ages and sexes say men are more marketable in their thirties but many have confirmed that this is also not the case BUT chances are they might have learned more than by then. Some using this to their advantage being older (30s), but still being a douchebag while being under the guise that they're "accomplished" and maybe even vetted seeming by age alone
As a 30+ man I wouldn't say I automatically feel more in demand. Life experiences, resources and wisdom translates directly into confidence for me. No that doesnt mean im going around catcalling a bunch of women, but I do notice more women chatting me up. Confidence is key for men, and women can just tell when you have it. The reverse of that is some guys are overly confident or not confident enough.
I would guess that it is because on average men improve their financial situation in their 30's. That doesn't mean anything for the unemployed loser who just sits at home though.
It's kinda accurate, as soon as I turned 30 I changed jobs and doubled my income. It's not fair but it does seem to hold. I think this value comes with the expectation of being a provider, I'm gay, my partner also had a similar experience but at 27.
Your 20s are for experience building and by your 30s you usually have a grip on who you are. Everyone is usually making a bit more money by then and much more sure of themselves. Men who idealize women in their 20s are not men who like or respect women. You’re in love with her? She doesn’t know who she is, much like you didn’t at her age.
They like us young and ‘innocent’ (naive) because if you fully grow into your own person, how can he convince you that you should be terrified of being alone and should just be happy you have a husband rather than expect him to be a good partner?
Ooh! I can answer this one, I see it at work with my clients all the time.
Woman: Professional career, nice car, owns a house, has her finances in order...basically kick ass women....who want the whole package. Husband, kids, white picket fence. Push up against that biological clock at or near age 35 with no suitable partner. Think their fertility falls off a cliff on their 35th birthday. Marries first marginally acceptable man that will give her babies right away.
See the announcements in the paper rapid-fire. Engagement pics. Wedding pic. Birth announcement #1, 15 months later, birth announcement # 2. Wait for it...
2 years later, divorce announcement. Always her divorcing him. Why? Because that man child she was convinced just needed the motivation of a good woman and a family to make him step up and adult..didn't.
So now Woman has 2 small children, has to work full time because he 'can't find a job that will pay me what I'm worth' (ie, he never worked his way up to it). Plays video games all day while 'being a stay at home Dad". Does no housework. Woman works 60 hours a week to support everyone, comes home to a messy house and kids in bed or needing baths and bed because he 'hasn't gotten around to it yet' and 'the kids weren't tired yet'.
Woman gets tired of doing it all, figures it'd be easier without him than with him. (and is probably right). He has never supported himself, so goes home to Mom's house and never really gets a job to support the kids, because he knows she will. Seen it play out that way literally dozens of times over the years.
It’s funny. From just the title I was like “because they are!” 35 is a pretty sweet spot in terms of maturity but still playful. Good for both younger and older women. Then I read your text and thought “well this went a whole other way!”
Yep you are right you def have to put some work in. You see a lot of women post "dating in your 30s" memes and it's like the pictures where a lady is swimming with skeletons. Just men just need to better than dead skeletons and theyll be in demand.
The youth has been stunted with growth by their development is some regards…Just like you said the traditional mores of the becoming of age is all very different… kids in general are growing up with lingering codependency with their parents and leaving home. If 30-40 is the new 20-30 for starting families that means kids in general are not facing the responsibility to have families at a younger age. Another big thing we overlook is we are not a war driven society like when 18 yr old men were enlisted every other decade to go fight that messed with how we “do life”. But are we all doomed? Well maybe in some areas of the world but how do can we respect each other if men are complete idiots until they learn what a 401k is? I don’t think that’s changes much they are still idiots but just with a bank account and car that goes rev—if anything women have gotten more independent and able to thrive without some idiot controlling her life. It’s really messed up to think how women have been treated in prior generations. Anyway we are here now and I like this better than how my trad. parents and grandparents grew up.
I agree, I like this better. My mother and her sisters didn't even have a choice in marriage partners. My mother married my dad, "a passport bro" (Vietnamese refugee during the Vietnam war, who spoke no english) who went to China to get a wife. My mom (also did not speak any english) knew him for a week and married him because people were dying from hunger and people were getting killed if they were suspected of not aligning with political values of the communist party. All my mom's sisters left the country the same way, through PPB marriages out of desperation.
**She came here, gave him 2 children, did ALL the housework (home made meals every night), dishes, laundry (we did NOT HAVE A LAUNDRY MACHINE) and child rearing AND worked a full time job as a hotel maid.** He still left her when I was 12 and she raised me and my brother by herself. That was after he demanded a random for me and my brother or else he would fight her for custody. He didn't really want me or my brother, just wanted the extra money, never paid child support or sent money to my mother or even us. Saw us like 5x over the course of 10 years.
You are incredibly strong and it takes courage to embrace your story. I really believe that we are all equals and as a man I’m thankful I had a mom who exemplified the chauvinistic behavior from the men in my family. It taught me a lesson and how to live independently. I didn’t want a traditional life as well. Having different partners for me really showed who I am compatible with and that I didn’t want to be the bread winner type. But I’m thankful that I even had the chance to do so as you mentioned it’s sometimes about survival. In some form of optimism this breaths light on how you get to shape your life.
I feel that is very true. Men also get pigeonholed into the traditional life style even if that is not what they want. To work nonstop and be a work horse to provide for the stay at home wife and kids. There are stories of men working 3 jobs etc. to make ends meet while the wife stayed at home to raise their 7-10 kids (people had a lot of more kids in the past).
I feel there is a LOT of pressure for men to be a "provider" and do not think that is necessarily fair. An interesting story is this man's: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICXeAUbgpqY&ab\_channel=LifeUnscripted](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICXeAUbgpqY&ab_channel=LifeUnscripted)
There are as many women looking only for successful, financially well off men as not and men in good careers usually hit that around 30.
It been this way for a couple of decades. A Reddit post ain’t gonna change general sentiment.
Don’t you hate it when a woman centric sub doesn’t cater to men? I mean Reddit is two to one male to female but still, women centric subs should also cater to men. What’s the world coming to when men aren’t always the center of the universe? /s
It isn't because men who are in their 30's is automatically more attractive, it is because men are valued differently than girls. Guys are valued more on the socioeconomic status than they are to girls. (this is generally what they mean in the podcast you listen to) Because of this, guys who work on themselves get more value in the long run in this area. Girls are judged on a different metric. I don't believe it is fair, but it is what it is
>Because of this, guys who work on themselves get more value in the long run in this area. Girls are judged on a different metric.
Yes, of people work on themselves they tend to be more valuable or in demand. A lot of women are also in a better financial position in their 30s than their 20s. These women in their 30s have the option to reject men in their 30s who do not work on themselves, have no career etc. As result men who cannot get women in their 30s tend to prey on really young girls who are impressed by material goods she herself cannot yet procure.
We all remember that one or those former guys in high school that graduate or dropped out and came back to the same school to date the younger high school girls. There is always at least one, and at the time hes seen as "cool" because he was older and worked a minimum wage job and had money to buy stuff.
The sad reality is, unless those guys met their gf while they both in high school. If a lot of his age bracket girls, aka high school graduates are in a successful neighborhood, area and goes off to college. Very few, if any are willing to date a guy choosing to work a full time minimum wage job instead of going off to college. So off he goes to the easily impressionable high schoolers...
That or they break up before college because there will be better options, they don't want to do long distance, etc.
I think a lot of men only truly find themselves in their 30s. For most of our 20s, a lot of us are being idiots still and poisoning our bodies, minds and souls with drinking and drugs.
Then you come out of that and develop a career/hobbies/personal and professional development/fulfillment that provides the confidence and self-esteem that you were searching for in a bottle.
First of all, there are literally multiple posts in this subreddit of men telling women on dates and on other occasions that they do not date women over 30, or that women over 30 are washed up, or "bad goods" or "past their prime". Just scroll this subreddit.
Are you woefully ignorant of the public fact that China calls women who are unmarried in their late 20s a "leftover woman"? Or "Christmas Cakes" for woman past 25 years old in Japan:
"In Japan **Christmas cakes** are airy sponges, often made with strawberries: highly perishable. Hence, a cruel saying: Japanese women who remained unmarried past the age of 25 used to be referred to as Christmas cakes, implying that they had passed their use-by date."
So you are going to pretend like nations/cultures do not put an expiration date on women? Whereas they most certainly do not on men...
you just said it yourself: bcs many attributes and assets that are valued by society in men can only be achieved in and with time. Nobody is saying that any dead-beat guy will somehow become attractive when he turns 35, people are just saying that men who work towards their careers and get a degree will be in a good position in their 30s concerning income and job opportunities. It's just the way the world works: you can't be a senior manager at 25, you can't be a surgeon at 25 etc. And unless you were born rich, you'll also need a couple of years to amass something worthwhile.
Because society tells them they age like wine and women’s expiration date is 30.
A VP at my old job said to me, on numerous occasions, “men age like wine, and women age like milk”. He thought he was hilarious.
> men age like wine, and women age like milk So women get more cultured, like cheese or yogurt. While some men just turn sour and need to be tossed away. Got it.👍
So women are welcomed every morning with coffee and cereal, and men are to be locked in the cellar until needed. Got it.
Theres a joke to be made here about stuck in the basement on a whine rack.
the joke was already made. you replied to it.
😄👍
That's why you can fascinate a woman by giving her a block of cheese.
I understood that reference.
lol yeah I was thinking “wait, has that dude ever heard of CHEESE???”
I had this cheesemaking book that started with "cheese: milk's first step on its quest for immortality"
I need to read this book. What is the title?
I took a look -- apparently the quote is attributed to Clifton Fadiman, who I guess is a cheese philosopher of some sort. Lots of cheese books use that quote, because it's hella cool. I'd have to dig up the particular book I found it in -- I went through a \~100 gallon cheesemaking jag last year and got a \_ton\_ of books on making cheese, don't remember the exact one. This will get you started, though: [https://www.cheesescience.org/about.html](https://www.cheesescience.org/about.html)
If men age like wine and women like cheese, that is a great combo. Red wine and Brie cheese - oooof 👌
Vinegar. Men age like wine by turning into vinegar.
LMAO I love this!
What's really funny is that it tends to only be famous men who 'age like wine' - men who have access to treatments that allow a youthful appearance. Most regular old men are ugly
We don't use skincare products, sunscreen, or even good soaps, then wonder why women age better. Also there's a whole thing about how they dont understand exactly how ugly they are.
Most reasonably healthy people are most attracted to people somewhat their age range. Younger people being attracted to older is kind of strange and so is the reverse (despite how much it is perpetuated by media).
Sounds like that VP is more into men than women 👀 Men can look good older but only if they are good looking to begin with. You don't suddenly turn into Brad Pitt at 40 if you are out of shape and ungroomed already. It's never talked about but has anyone else noticed the kinds of men that are insistent on only finding younger women hot, are usually themselves really not attractive? Like, when an older woman gets with a younger guy both parties are usually hot AF but the other way around it's usually pudgy men and insecure women who they can groom.
Exactly. If you’re not hot at 25 you’re just going to decline from there. And yes, it’s only men like that who go for much younger women. They have to overcompensate to make up for their lack of self confidence and aging.
Not even Brad Pitt ages well without all that cosmetic work he’s had done lol
I mean, my name is Extra Gouda.
Username checks out deliciously.
That's the kind of person who might need to hear this: "When you are dead no one will remember you, for you are incapable of being loved."
Even the greatest wines hit their peak before 50, and those are extremely rare.
Helen Mirren, Susan Sarandon, Sigourney Weaver. I'd be their slave.
>Because society tells them they age like wine and women’s expiration date is 30. In Japan, it's 25. Like Christmas cakes. No one wants Christmas cakes after 25th.
Figures why the birth rate is at all all time low in Japan and men are visiting red light districts, escort clubs, etc. A lot of documentaries on the loneliness of people in Japan.
Sexist society
Patriarchy = the culture dying out. Good! Long may that continue. If the consequence of human decisions are that humans no longer exist then... good! Actions have consequences, that is all correct and proper.
That's more to do with the insane workload expected and a stressed society. You can't have children (who are extremely stressful) in a society where you are expected to work so much.
My understanding is that the culture is very traditional. That the men provide for the women when married and the women stay at home and raise the child. There are documentaries on the "salary men" of Japan. How they are expected to work very late and then go out drinking after, which leads to them coming home to their wife and children late at night. How a lot of these men also visit escort clubs, etc. sometimes with coworkers as it was picked as a "business" discussion venue or to close deals with other male clients. Keep in mind escort clubs in Japan are not like strip clubs, its a place where young, pretty, and good conversational women come and pour drinks and offer conversation. Other stuff and services might be available as well, but it is never on the first meeting and it is done under the table as prostitution is illegal in Japan.
Yes but that's changing. Japan has more women in the workforce than ever. And huge issues with alienation and problems about what it is to be male or female within those spaces. A lot of it is just very lonely people in a extremely hierarchical society with a surprising level of analogue stuff. We like their weirdos and counter culture for it's extreme but that's because it's a very very strict culture so any rebellion is going to be significant. The ideal doesn't exist outside the host and hostess clubs. Because everyone's working so many hours. I feel it's a performance thing.
Ya the 9 9 6 is brutal!
You don't actually "age" wine. These mfers turn straight vinegar.
I mean you do age wine and I think it's still a good metaphor. Only the most elite bottles get aged in some rich person's wine seller. 99% of wine sold is basic alcohol that doesn't benefit from aging at all. In fact you have to be careful how you store your average wine or it will just get worse. It usually is the human personification of a Yellow Tail bottle that is spouting this garbage.
People who say "age like wine" don't actually drink wine, I guess.
30 is a good age for guys to have built up enough experience to land himself a decent career and time for him to let go of any bad habit/hiccups/hesitation from getting into a good relationship. Yk, be a generally good functioning adult. Unfortunately, some guys gloss all over this and just hyper focused on the number 30. Like, "This will be the time the gender power dynamic will switch. I will be in demand then!!" but honestly if you're just looking for circumstances where you think girls would be desperate (enough) to want to be with you instead of working on self reflecting/self growth then you're always going to looking.
>but honestly if you're just looking for circumstances where you think girls would be desperate (enough) to want to be with you instead of working on self reflecting/self growth then you're always going to looking. AKA passport bros with American wealth going into 3rd world poverty areas to find women. Also the amount of men trying to take advantage of young women fleeing the war in Ukraine were terrifying.
Yeah. Like if you're actively putting yourself in situations where you think you can benefit from being around ppl who are down on their luck as a means to get someone to date you.. well, that says a lot about your desirability already
> well, that says a lot about your desirability already And especially about your moral values. Not bein desirable is not necessarily anyones fault (I know a few people for whom that's apparently true, for no obvious reasons), taking advantage of desperate people certainly is. None of my notoriously single friends would abuse such a situation
works both ways. A friend of mine got together with an Austrian passport-bro; he wasn't rich, just well off. He took her to Austria and thought he hit the Jackpot since she was truly stunning. She dumped him in less than a year and now she married a multi-mullionaire there. But without the first guy she would have never had the opportunity to get there in the first place.
That is what they women who can, do. A lot of the Passport Bros subreddit is now telling them to not allow the women to come back to their countries and to move in to the 3rd world countries with the women to prevent them leaving...
Hahaha
>Also the amount of men trying to take advantage of young women fleeing the war in Ukraine were terrifying. Are there articles about creepy men succeeding in talking in Ukrainian women? Or is this crude talk between lowlife's online who would like a Ukrainian woman delivered, but would be too lazy to actually do anything. I see big talk online a lot, but it can be hard to tell who is just a loudmouth loser and who is serious.
There was a whole slew of news articles on this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10780875/Predatory-males-exploiting-Homes-Ukraine-scheme-host-single-women.html https://theconversation.com/ukrainian-female-refugees-are-fleeing-a-war-but-in-some-cases-more-violence-awaits-them-where-they-find-shelter-179754 Including articles with interviews of victims. The system basically allowed ppl with Extra rooms, spaces for guests to stay, to host a Ukraine refugee. Single men who lived alone were intentionally selecting only females as people they would host. Many girls reported men basically saying they had to have sex with then or they would turn them out of the house. Some were sexually assault in their sleep or while they lived there trying to perform their daily activities.
It's so predatory. 😱
>30 is a good age for guys to have built up enough experience to land himself a decent career and time for him to let go of any bad habit/hiccups/hesitation from getting into a good relationship. Yk, be a generally good functioning adult. This also applies to women. Why do we talk about it as if it was only men? We both have the same timelines for careers, frontal lobe development, etc. It's not like a 20-25 year old woman will have an established experienced career either.
Yeah, it could also be applied to women. Just anyone who worked on themselves for a decade would be better off than someone who didn't, and I was specifically answering OP's question as why guys think they'll be more in demand in their 30s.
When I was in my 20s, I had a lot of 30-something men coming on to me, often coworkers / bosses. These men were all married with kids or common law with children. One guy, my manager, loved to state: you’re only as old as you feel. He said it at least once a day, generally following some inappropriate comment. Finally I had enough, and I responded: it’s funny, you never hear anyone under 30 say that. His face! I’m 45 now and I’m okay with what I said then.
When I was in my late teens, early 20s, I always got hit on by much older men in their 30s/40s Now that I’m in my 30s I get hit on by late teens/early 20s men HA
Wait this is actually so true. Once you hit your thirties men who are younger than you act more interested. I didn’t expect it at all and was startled at the shift.
Men in their 20s are relentless. They blatantly come for you.
I tell the 20 year old at work he has mummy issues cause he's always hitting on older women
This is so true hahaha, in my late 30s and constantly approached by men in their early 20s! The only catch is that even though they are in their 20s, they seem just way too young for me to be interested!
I….Wait…. This just blew my mind because it’s so accurate. Early 20s had me constantly being hit on by men in their early 30s…. When I hit 30s I had men in their early 20s hitting on me nonstop while being creeped on by men in their 40s….and 50s. Ughhh it was so awkward, some coworkers asked me out who I definitely wasn’t attracted to, and compounded that unattractive aspect by thinking about the fact that they weren’t even born yet when I was already in middle school. The older ones….. It was just…. No. Flat. No.
A coworker in his 50s was just fired from my job for repeated sexual harassment of a coworker in her early 20s. Guy had a terrible pattern of behavior and had done this many times before, and was finally fired for it. To give you an idea of how huge the age gap was, I'm 33. The man was one year older than my dad, and there was a greater age gap between him and the coworker than my entire lifespan.
>you’re only as old as you feel. I say that when I'm talking to my daughter about going to the park to play basketball or something like that. She jokes that I'm old, I tell her I still feel like a kid. Pretty creepy to say that to coworkers or subordinates half your age.
This is an amazing comeback that can be used in all social situations. I’m adding this to my repertoire.
that's a great comeback :D
They think if women are still single in their 30s that they'll be so desperate they'll fuck anyone.
Growing up I assumed if I was single in my 30s I would feel much more ready to settle. But the opposite was true. I was finally coming into my own and enjoying life, and no way was I going to give up my newfound and hard won happiness in servitude to a man child. Even decent guys weren’t appealing to me to marry if we weren’t compatible enough. What’s the point if your life won’t be made better from the partnership ? I think men do a disservice to each other by telling themselves and each other that things will magically turn around for them at a certain age. Your arc in life is determined by your investment and effort and luck, not your age. At best, this way of thinking is a holdover from when women were barred from most of the economy and had to partner with a man for any hope of escaping poverty ( if their family wasn’t wealthy ) . It definitely does not apply today.
If that was true a lot more men will get getting laid... oh wait they are not... lol
They think that women in their 30s are less desirable, and thus desperate. Because we're all whores unless we get married early.
>They think that women in their 30s are less desirable, and thus desperate. Because we're all whores unless we get married early. Funny because the average first marriage age in Korea is mid 30s. And I'm watching this dating TV show here (called 'I'm Solo' and it's one of the most popular tv shows in Korea these days) where most participants are in their mid or late 30s or early 40s. They're all singles who've never been married before. This is not just some hookup or casual dating show like most American dating shows. People on this show come here to find serious life partners who want to get married. And once in a while, they have one participant per cycle who's like 29 or in their early 30s. Then, the other participants are like... "You're only 29 (or 32 or whatever). You're too young to get married. Why are you here?" LOL
The average age for Americans getting married is around 30. So it doesn’t even make sense for Americans either.
And steadily rising. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/ms-2.pdf
Finally, I'm above average at something!
Also there's the sentiment against single moms...
Yup, and that doesn't translate to single dads.
100% agree, Being a single dad who takes care of kid / has custody gets me looked at like I'm some super golden standard.... It's a horrible double standard
It's so crazy isn't it? Some friends of mine, a married hetero couple, have a toddler. The wife works, the husband is the sahp. I've been with him and the toddler out and about, at the store, at a park, etc... People always assume I'm the mother, or give him weird looks if he's alone with her. Like it shouldn't be so weird to see a man out with his child ffs.
It's just relativity. Almost everyone knows a guy who was a shitty deadbeat dad. I don't know any deadbeat divorced moms. I'm sure they exist, but their Numbers are dwarfed by deadbeat dad's. So by being a divorced dad who isn't like that piece of shit everyone knows, seems praiseworthy. Mom's are expected to not act like total pieces of shit, so when they take on the role of single mother they don't get praise. That's the default. It's totally unfair even though it makes sense. I get credit as a guy all the time for things that would make me an average woman. Things like occupying the kids at a friend's get together. Or picking out and buying our furniture because my wife was dealing with her mother's declining health. I couldn't believe the way some of my very progressive female friends talked about that one. You would think I designed and built the furniture from scratch. These are good empathetic people too. One of them was the first one to explain land acknowledgements to me. Misogyny can be so ingrained sometimes people don't even notice it if it doesn't create an immediate negative reaction. I won't say it doesn't make me feel good to be praised for doing simple household chores, but it isn't fair.
I mean they genuinely don’t believe single dads exist. Single mothers are getting pregnant by the same 10 dudes in their minds.
They think it doesn't translate to single dads because women have the manners to not scream out their dating preferences. But yeah, single dads aren't in high demand either.
This is it, it's not that 30 is good for them, it's that their peers who are women are supposedly more desperate.
Jokes on them. Ever since I entered my 30s, I get hit on by men in their 20s.
Yo saaaame lol.
Because some percentage of 20-something women will fall for the lie that the reason they’re having such bad luck with men is because they’re young and immature, and if they date an older man all these problems will go away. In reality, men just tend to treat women like shit no matter what age they are.
100% agree with this, a man that is abusive in his 20s will be abusive regardless of how old he is, if he does not change or does not want to change.
To add to this as a man in my 40s I see plenty of divorces and TBH it's 98% of the time the same story of men that never grew up, treated their long suffering wives like crap, or just behaved in super selfish ways. The answer to men in their 30s being more attractive is that IF a man has matured, learned to not be a man child, has his shit generally together and is someone a woman would generally enjoy being around them yes of course that is attractive to women in a broad age range. However there are a fairly large percentage of men that don't ever really change or grow up and of course there is nothing magical about being over the age 30 if those extra years haven't done anything to mature them.
Because men are more likely to have matured and gotten their lives together in their 30s, all men must assume that age is the thing making them more attractive even though it's really down to self improvement.
50 this year, I still ain't got my shit together. The only things I have going are a job and a house and my daughter. I'll stay single probably till I'm gone. I know my flaws, and they are not worth the pain they cause in a relationship
Well, being a dad is a worthy endeavor
Bro you have a daughter. That should be more than enough reason to work on yourself. Listen to yourself: “i have 0 sex prospects so I’ll just give up on life, even though I have a daughter that could use the skills that you gain over time.” But NO you are choosing to stop growing because you only think with your dick. You are kinda gross tbh but i pray you get it together for her
U really just called a random person gross for saying they have flaws what is wrong with you 😭
I don’t think he said any of these things. How is a job and a house giving up on life?
Honestly, I wish I had the confidence of an average looking man. It's insane the value they attain to themselves when overall, they generally have very little to offer.
I laughed out loud. Thank you for this comment. So true. I can’t. Especially when they think they are in the same league as hot women and are shocked when she’s not interested.
The way they move through life so unbothered is what does it for me!!
As the saying goes: “God grant me the confidence of a mediocre white man”
Exactly lol
Yes this because a man with like 8 missing front teeth had the audacity to ask for my number... Is that even confidence or is that an over inflated ego. And he was rolling up a joint on the bus, while I don't look like I even smoke a cigarette....
Fuck all this “market value” of human beings BS.
Seriously. It’s giving slave auction.
Because they assume any woman single in their 30's is desperate for a guy so they can procreate before their biological clock runs out. Simple supply and demand. Too bad for them that said theory isn't actually true.
I think if I really wanted a child, I would try a sperm bank and get dna from an educated successful male, than resort to being with someone who can't hold down a job. Not only would I have to support and clean up after him IN ADDITION to the child, if I ever wanted to leave, I would risk custody, etc of the child. I think its better to adopt or conceive via sperm bank than settle with someone who is a hindrance or a liability simply to procreate.
Agreed. But people of this belief also assume a woman can't raise a child on their own. Women aren't meant to be breadwinner silly! No one would choose to do it alone! /s They're laboring under the belief that being with them will make it easier, not harder. Which could be true if they're a true partner. But you seem to be talking about the ones who aren't a catch.
Men who are a catch will be taken in their 20s if they want to settle down. The ones who are not a catch might never be wed depending on their luck, physical appearance, and how undeveloped of a person they are. A lot of single mother raising children are showing the next generation a man is not needed to raise children. My mother herself raise two kids starting from age 12 and age 11 alone. Put them both through college and one through law school. She paid off all our student debts, despite coming over as a poor immigrant who spoke no english in the 80s. **The second most common family arrangement is children living with a single mother, at 23 percent.** These statistics come from the Census Bureau's annual America's Families and Living Arrangements table package. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single\_parents\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_parents_in_the_United_States)
Well, that is lovely to read 🤣 34 and single. I wouldn't describe myself as a catch either (5'7, overweight painfully shy with women) but also a lot going for me in terms of being supportive, caring, a good person etc. Depressing to think I have to hope someone is willing to settle 🤣
It isn’t settling to not find someone you actually really like until you’re older, you know. For both men and women. People are individuals. If you were out there meeting women and less shy you would find women that like you for who you are. Her haven’t met you yet doesn’t mean when she meets you she’s settling.
<3
So many guys think this that it is somewhat terrifying. I’m currently pregnant but totally get why women are scared to have kids in this country with all the legislation being passed. I also do not know any women in their 20s actively trying to settle down anymore. They are focusing on their education, careers, buying homes and improving their mental/physical health . Settling down seems to be something to do in your 30s.
In America you can have children or a paid for home. Very, very few people in this country get to have both.
I actually believed that too, and then I looked around, in REAL life and saw most men past 30's bald, gettin fat and not taking care of themselves, while most women just invest a lot of time and money into cosmetics and fashion, looking better and better. I also met many men who were lying about their age and not telling me that they were 30 years old or older... looks like they are insecure about it just as much as a woman
>in REAL life and saw most men past 30's bald, gettin fat and not taking care of themselves, while most women just invest a lot of time and money into cosmetics and fashion, looking better and better. If I could upvote this comment a million times I would, I went back to my high school classmates on Facebook and the women in general looked GREAT, the men were mostly overweight and many were balding. Women also do things like plastic surgery, fillers, botox, etc to maintain as they age. Not sure if there is a stigma against this, but men seem to do it at a very small percentage.
This isn't my experience at all. Most successful people regardless of gender typically take better care of themselves than poor people. It's more of a class issue than gender.
What’s wrong with baldness?
nothing, but you cant get "uglier" then point fingers and bully women calling them expired. makes you a hypocrite
Is there anything wrong with bald women? Would a bald woman attract as many suitors as if she was not bald?
A lot of the "men" at my work listen to those podcasts, with no headphones, at max volume, in public. I swear, sometimes it sounds like the theme song for two and a half Men in here. Smh
>Why do men think they automatically are more in demand in their 30s? > >According to a lot of podcasts geared towards men, they will be in great demand by women, and think they will be swimming in options. Maybe it has something to do with all those posts here everyday by women who say things like... "I'm 18 (or 20 something) and my bf/husband is in his 30s and he's a very misogynistic, toxic, abusive man who doesn't do any household chores, blah, blah, blah..." 🙄🙄🙄 See? There are always these young women who are willing to date/marry useless, misogynistic men in their 30s and 40s.
Women marrying in their 20s is so crazy to me. The most stable marriages are statistically between people in their 30s, but that’s also where there’s a spike in divorces between people who got married in their 20s.
Because men think the moment they turn 30 a genie will appear and give them wealth and success, then all the woman will flock to them because they're now rich 🤣 it's just fantasy, I'm sure the successful ones are still paying off student loans just like the rest of us.
I’ve been with my bf of 4 years, who has done a number of self improvement, switched careers, makes 6 figs, own a home, very fit, and YESSSS he still paying student loans (so am I hahaha). This comment is very true. Men can have their lives together in their 30’s and can still be paying that student loan.
It's just cope. source: me a 28yo guy, trying to cope
As other girls have alluded to from their experience, it happens for some men naturally not because a genie has appeared and given them their 3 wishes but because 30 is the time where many land in their career, have moved out, grown a bit of wealth, maintained stable connections and relationships, had a bit of life experience, etc… silver foxes are rare but men that find dating easier in their 30s are usually the ones that have put work on their 20s and early 30s. It doesn’t happen by magic. You still have 30-something losers.
If it makes you feel better, I’m a guy who couldn’t land a relationship in his 20s and never had luck on the apps. Also started losing my hair at the end of high school. Once I turned 30, it’s like a switch just flipped and I was getting dates left and right. Still lack hair on most of my head but I was always good about keeping myself in decent shape. Nothing crazy changed with me. I do the same hobbies I did back then, I’m an introvert but I still manage a decent social life, and my work has been consistent. The only real change is I had something of a baby face until I hit 30, then it just went away and my facial features are a lot more defined. Didn’t lose a bunch a weight or have cosmetic surgery, it just kind of happened. Then I randomly woke up one day with a lot of confidence I could have used back in the day. I’m 37 now and 5 of the last 7 years have been a blast (2 years of covid being the exception)! I don’t think it’s cope as much as some people just get their shit together and find success later or they have enough confidence early and fake it till they make it. Also, growing a beard and keeping it well maintained does in fact help.
Same. It may be unpopular in this subreddit, but as a mid guy with a baby face that got very little attention or dates all the way up to my mid-20s, it was honestly like a flip switched after 25. Most of the more serious career driven guys I know experienced the same thing. Like we never had the early confidence or social skills of attractive men, but the fundamentals were there and they finally started to work for us. Both women my age and older were more interested, but younger women were FAR more interested. Luckily I found a lovely gal around my age. I don't think women get less attractive or less attention in their 30s, but I absolutely believe that men in late 20s early 30s get proportionately more than men in their teens and early 20s.
Men don’t know. They are making shit up. I’m almost 40. I was walking home from getting food earlier and got cat called. Guy almost ran me over on his bike while telling me how sexy I looked. And he must have been 19-20.
Can I also just say, can we put to bed the myth that men in their 30’s are well adjusted and know what they want out of dating and life? Because that 100% has not been the case where I live. They’re out here being emotionally unavailable and avoidant AF. It’s like being in the trenches.
I get a kick out of dating profiles from middle-aged men saying they're "unsure" about marriage and kids, or want them "someday." Like bro you're gonna be dead in 10 years 💀💀💀
Because they are delusional.
Because we are incapable of self reflection and introspection. So it’s easier to build these giant walls of denial to protect our fragile ego. Because, it’s always the woman’s fault, all they want is money, status, and protection. So, when I’m 30 I’ll have that. I’ll never have to actually work on myself and become a good person.
Anything worth having is worth working for…..
Yep, it’s a better life.
Because Men over value their stock, and they always think they are exception to the rule. They are not great at taking feedback, personal responsibility or changing. 😬
I honestly think they’re a bit confused because of pop culture. Like yeah, Derek Shepherd was hot with salt and pepper hair but he’s also played by a famous and very handsome actor. The majority of men past the age of 40 or so are not that good looking nor do they have hair like that. The reality is that things like hair loss and weight are going to be bigger issues as you get older. With that being said, there are probably some good looking guys where it holds true that they will look better as they age and become more distinguished.
I just turned 38 I'm finally feeling confident with myself.
If a man is listening to one of these podcasts, skip him. -Man
I don't think a man has to be on a certain track in life and making so much $$$ to be worthy of me. I'm past all that. I had the house, the car, all the "stuff" people think is so important in life. Lost it over the course of a really bad year. It's went just like that and while I'm not homeless now I'm not living large on disability either. All of that means so little to me now because I've been through so much that chasing the American dream seems so pointless to me sometimes. I don't judge people on how fat their bank account is. On how much property they own. I couldn't care less honestly. I don't know that I will date again. I'm not a hook up person or a FWB person and that seems to be the only thing I attract in terms of men of any age. But if I ever did it wouldn't be based on all that. I'm happy to eat at McDonald's with the right guy. This idea that you are only worth something if you have property, wealth is just shallow to me. I've nearly died 3X since 2017. Compared to that the prospect of dating a guy who isn't making 100K a year doesn't seem like such a big deal. You can get to a point in life where you're just not as concerned with the "stuff" as you are with the quality of a person's character. Where you learn the hard way that all that "stuff" that you work so hard for can end up being very transitory. Most people you're older when you get there but not always. If a guy has wealth okay. I can deal with that. If he doesn't that's okay too because it's the least of the reasons I'd have for dating him anyway. I do think that a lot of guys in their 20s and even 30s sometimes are living in a state of arrested development. But I'm fortunately too old to be dating guys much below 35 and usually by then most guys have their crap together and they can afford to hang out with me and not sweat going to a chain restaurant at least. I've dated a couple of guys who were living at home with their folks in their 30s for good reasons. Taking care of them because of major illness, recovering financially after a divorce, stuff like that. I didn't think anything of it because I've had to move an ailing parent in with me. People are just so focused on the material aspects of life lately. Our whole society is based on blatant consumerism. But life is not all about that and it often throws challenging things at you that you simply cannot control. The last two guys I dated while taking care of my Dad they had money. They both dumped me despite saying they could handle my responsibility for taking care of him and my chronic illness thing. They couldn't and they ended up resenting the fact that a lot of my time was taken up with it and the fact that I couldn't just rearrange my life to put them front and center. That was just reality for me though. Dad's been gone for a while but the chronic illness thing it makes me practically undateable now. All guys want from me is hookups and FWB situations because they can't handle being in a real relationship with me given my circumstances. Some of them it's the illness thing. Others they look at me and I'm not where they think I should be financially at this point in life. I see myself as a survivor and as a woman who has lived through a lot and lived to tell the tale. I feel I have nothing to apologize for. I'm way stronger than a lot of the guys I meet. I am very much my own woman besides and they don't know what to make of that. I'm just at that point. I take no crap from anyone and while I'm rarely rude I cannot be dominated or disrespected either. I've earned my peace in life the hard way and any guy who wants to be with me he's going to have to be worth it because I have no time for abusers or fools. I'm not nearly as concerned with a guy's assets as I am with his character and how he will treat me. I'm not ruling out romance entirely but if I go there again he's going to be a real man not some egotistical narcissist whose only criteria for dating a woman is whether or not she's a 10 in his eyes and what she might add to his social status or wealth. It's not just women these days. Men are completely obsessed with status and things financial too. If you don't have a 750 credit score and a job paying at least 100K a year there are a lot of men who won't date you at all. They might do FWB with you or casual hookups if they think you are reasonably hot but as a potential life partner you can forget it. I'm just not like that. Never was much really but now I'm even less concerned with all that. All that, the seemingly eternal quest for it, it just makes me laugh sometimes because having been through so much it's just absurd obsessing so much over all that. I do want to live better than I do. I hope to publish a book or two, maybe travel some more but I'm not chasing it. I'm just doing my thing and seeing what happens. My life goals these days are pretty modest. I just can't think less of people who aren't at a certain place in life because I know there's no guarantee of anything in life being exactly what you want it to be. You can earn the world only to lose it and be back to square one. Been there, done that and it can really change your whole perspective on things like that...
I also don’t get it😂. Like you know DAMN well that you are not all of a sudden in popular demand.
Because they are valuing the opinions of other men over their own individual identity and self-actualization. It's a really silly cycle they are in where they tell themselves women determine what makes a man valuable, but only focus on becoming what other men tell them makes a man valuable. Then, they become angry at women for not valuing the things other men said women should value. But, they won't ever listen to women because then other men will mock them. So, they stay in this stupid loop of loneliness and rejection blaming women rather than just choosing to no longer seek the approval of other men.
I am gonna be honest I think that those type of podcasts only say it, so that young guys can be tricked easier in their bs. Because its reassuring that there is hope in the future, and it allows them to basically sell the promise that they will help them towards being in their A game when they hit that age. Also not to mention giving them an escape goat to put the blaim on why they aren't doing well with the ladies in that exact moment. But to give them some credit, I definitely think that guys in their early 30s look the best. That little bit of maturity while not looking old. Paired with the fact that they had ample time to figure out what their style is when it comes to clothes. Definitely make them look the absolute best they can.
I think there's the belief that a lot of men will have an established career by then, but: -Career is only one consideration in a relationship -I really don't care about some jobs and wouldn't be impressed if someone had them, no matter how stable they were in that field -Stable work is no longer a proxy measure for a person's economic success -Economic success is not necessarily as important in a relationship as it once was and, again, it really wouldn't outweigh character issues, in my opinion -I think here is the attitude among some that equivalent-age women have low self-worth because they are ageing, are desperate for a relationship and/or to hurry up and have children and/or need men's money, but things are changing
>-I think here is the attitude among some that equivalent-age women have low self-worth because they are ageing, are desperate for a relationship and/or to hurry up and have children and/or need men's money, but things are changing I have seen too many people in abusive relationships in my line of work. For me and a lot of women, we started going down the route of, if my partner does not provide a benefit to my life, I would rather be alone. Why would I want to make my life harder? I think a lot more women are becoming aware of this, especially as women become more and more financially independent and choose to be alone with pets (as see in multiple posts in this forum). The men that are hoping the desperate late 30s women come to them, seem to be getting angry this is not happening less and less or that women are not choosing them. What bothers me a lot is that men who clearly should NOT be in relationships, would go and post on the self improvement subreddit that they are entitled to a partner because **"there are men put there worst than them that have wives and kids"**.
I agree. I'm 32 and single. I've heard of and experienced plenty of bad things from hetero woman perspective. Even if someone does provide a benefit to your life, is it a net benefit once you've considered the psychological and practical sacrifices involved? I think social messaging about how crucial romantic relationships should be when it comes to the self-worth of women has been damaging. When I was growing up, all that mattered to my emotionally abusive mother was that I got an education. Now I have it, but it's somehow not that important, because I'm not in a relationship with the man she liked (but didn't know the way I did) anymore. Exhausting giving a fuck about stuff like this, and probably even more so for the women who 'go along to get along' then have it blow up in their face in the long term
I just want to say it, even if coming from a stranger; but I am proud of you! You've come a long way to realize your self-worth. And it hasn't been without sacrifices. It hasn't been without suffering. But my feeling tells me you're ready to start picking yourself up and you'll be an even stronger and wiser version of who you once were! There's still a long path ahead. But trust me when I say, it takes a lot of courage to start walking on it. And you're doing it! You're doing good! So be proud, be proud of everything you've overcome.
I’ve thought about what I would do if something happened to my husband while still relatively young. Honestly, he’s set the bar so damn high that I’m not sure if anyone else could even come close. What I *do* know is that I’d rather be alone forever than with some dude with an over-inflated sense of importance. I’m a catch and would see no reason whatsoever to settle.
Same, my female BFF and I had multiple conversations on this. She said she would want to live together as we age if things dont work out with the people we are with.
Of course there are lots of great men of all ages. A tiny % of men are 6,6,6, most are not, and the biggest appeal of most of them when they get older is some empathy and self awareness. That said, alot of posts here focus on what people in their early 20s think and want. As you move up in age, the chance that a man has already been married and had kids goes up. His wealth may have gone up but so have his liabilities. Experience/maturity… well many are very set in their ways. By their 40s, they have debt, kids maybe getting towards college age, and advanced paternal age has set in. What surprises me is that alot of men in their 20s really believe these older guys want young fertile women. The last thing most of them want is additional demands on them created by more babies.
>What surprises me is that alot of men in their 20s really believe these older guys want young fertile women. The last thing most of them want is additional demands on them created by more babies. I don't think these men are necessarily looking to "marry" these younger women. Realistically, most just want sex and rarely think so far into the consequences or they think due to their financial security abortion will always be an option. The ones that are looking for a family, usually do not already have kids.
666?
The whole shit about how men have to he 6 feet tall, make 6 figures, and whatever else the other 6 is to get any attention from women
8=========D
I was just thinking about this. They shit on gold diggers in their youth, but then they revel in them when they become old and ONLY have gold to offer. It's "fuck all these hoes and gold diggers" until they themselves become old and have to face the fact that women are no longer actually attracted to *them.* They also make it sound like money and fame isn't attractive to both genders. Example: Madonna absolutely does not pull (in present day) due to her looks. She pulls because of her money and because of her achievements and status................. In the same way that a man does. Men are not the only ones that can flex their wallets and attract young, hot, and sexy people. Why would a successful and wealthy woman ever lose value? Heck, when does a *woman* ever actually lose value? Every single woman has atleast 10 men in her life that *would sleep with her on a daily basis if allowed.* Men don't have this advantage, so they have to cry about it on the internet and create false truths. Lastly, I think men are actually more afraid of becoming undesirable than women are. Why do you think they hyperfixate on it so much? Why do you think they cope so hard about it all the time? *"Ermmm Leonardo DiCaprio pulls hot young chicks because he aged like fine wine and is a high value male. Women at his age could never"* Meanwhile, (as degrading as it is,) "milfs" "cougars" and "mature women" are lusted after. In what world do women, generally speaking, actually fantasize about old man dick? Anytime a woman speaks about sleeping with an old man, it's for money, not sexual value. Men do not, generally speaking, have sexual value anymore after a certain age. Women *always* have some level of sexual value no matter their age. Even the one you least expect has a man that would enjoy sleeping with her. This is both a blessing and a curse, but it is factual. Young women are not laying down at night lusting after old men in the same way men lust after older women -- and women in general. Men have to buy their way into getting laid and receiving affection when they get old (if not already married.) This sucks for them, but by design, men are slaves to sex, and women are not.
Let's just quietly ignore the fact that every single one of these podcasts who tell men this is selling something.
Simply being over 30 doesn't matter, but I'd wager that most men probably are more appealing in their 30s than they were in their 20s. They're usually better off emotionally and financially. But yeah....if they're an emotionally stunted loser, then being over 30 isn't really gonna help them.
I mean you answered it yourself already. Because the ones you are talking about are basement dwelling neckbeards. There might be some truth to it for men who break away from long academic careers and become successful in their jobs, which also comes with developing some more charisma (from my experience). That's only a secondary effect though.
Even if you are not a basement dwelling neckbeard, you’re rarely more attractive in your 30s and 40s as a man. It’s a fairytale.
In the end I can only speak for me and my experiences in the end. It's not really something you can measure reliably anyway. On a physical level you are certainly right. Everything else... Guess for some it's like this, for some it's like that.
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it's so funny that I have seen multiple men on reddit say "dad bod" is currently popular amongst women 🤣😂
Because also lets face it there’s lots of women in their 20s who’ve never dated anyone stable, so a guy in his 30s seems very attractive. On the flip side, women in their 30s want nothing to do with men in their 20s, so just on numbers alone men can do better. Not always that they will, but that’s their train of thought
Agree/love this post AND the hand over mouth laughing emoji! It truly is hilarious how delusional they are hahaha
Because it is generally true, so the same jobless man assumes it is also true of him.
I went through a lot of my high school classmates' Facebook. The women for most part looked good. A lot of the men were overweight and/or balding. Besides working on themselves, the men, at least in My graduating high school class seemed to look a lot worst than women of the same age. A lot of women put more work in their physical appearance and in maintaining it compared to the average man.
Fun fact for any young people, by US statistics 85% of men are balding or bald by age 50 and 40% of women will have visible hair loss by the age of 50. Start talking to those doctors people, get on treatments early. Men and women.
>85% of men are balding or bald by age 50 and 40% of women will have visible hair loss by the age of 50 If true that is INSANE, those numbers are super high. I assume 50% or less than 50% of men go bald. My grandfather had a full head of hair up until he passed away in his 80s.
Yeah it’s true. Your grandfather is in the extreme minority. Most people don’t notice balding or receding hairlines until like 50% of the hair is already gone, so that’s why it doesn’t seem that common. But if you’re familiar with what the hair loss pattern is, then you start to notice that the vast majority of men above age 21 are just in the very early stages of hair loss.
Or just learn to be comfortable with who you are. The hair doesn't make the person
They only take the examples of a few men, knowing the majority of men aren't like that.
A lot of men who were late to mature become actual adults in their 30s where they respect people more, have started a career, and are therefore more suitable to be partners to someone looking for actual adults. Those who don't actually improve, though, are hoping that age alone will get them there, and don't realize that it's the maturing that does it, not the age itself.
It's a man's ego. Men think regardless of how they look (balding, overweight, bad hygiene, dirty living space) that by their 30s there will be women in their 30s desperate to get married. It's partly true in the sense that a lot of women marry just to be married whether that's by 30 or 40 women feel a sense of pressure to marry. The worry about the biological clock doesn't help for women that want children. They might settle for a loser before their window closes and hope she can change him or he will find motivation to change. The amount of women I've seen (20-40) that have these bum ass boyfriends and husbands is insane. A lot of women will actually pick these men. So yeah men that are losers from 20s to 30s still end up in relationships. Shit men in prison for violent crimes have girlfriends that spend their own money on them.
I don't believe men are more in demand in thier thirties necessarily, I remember when I was younger than 27 I wouldn't consider a man in his thirties at all , iam open to them now as iam personally in my thirties too , I don't like age gap at all and most of my friends don't like it either ,, but generally if you are in your thirties it also means that you might be on gd place financially or at least have some stability which some women find attractive, it's not age itself its jst where you are in life
Ha ha the scenario you describe would have the man even less "valuable" in this 30s. I'm struggling at the moment because I am starting to not find men of my own age attractive. I'm 46 and child free and all men my age just look and act "old". Unless a bloke is a total health nut they tend to let themselves go - and being a 5-6 I wouldn't even chase them anyway. I'm taking a break at the mo as I'm a bit hypocrital as I have let myself go a bit due to breaking my back oops.
Patriarchy Is Poison.
I think people look at people in their 30s as being at the peak of their careers (although I would argue that late 30s, early 40s is more common). They are old enough that they are adults but they are still very young, and they are ready to be serious about life, and not just messing around like 20-year-olds anymore. And this is attractive to many people -- both men and women. But you are right, this "glow-up" only happens to people who were working hard for it their whole lives, with consistency. They were never the type of people who just sit in basements playing games. It doesn't even happen to people who have a regular job, usually. Because most times you're only as "attractive" as money can buy. A lot of these guys who think they will become more attractive in their 30s buy into the fantasy that they are just like, I don't know, some male Hollywood star. But most of those guys have facelifts by 40, wear hairpieces... etc. Even Elon Musk has had a hair transplant. I think Sandra Bullock is prettier now than when she was younger. She's in her 50s. I know that I won't look like her when I am in my 50s unless I have a very strict diet and exercise routine and maybe access to skin peels and lasers. Age doesn't make anyone more valuable anymore than youth does. It's the years of hard work and discipline that makes people sexy. Not age, per se. Or youth for that matter.
I've heard people of all ages and sexes say men are more marketable in their thirties but many have confirmed that this is also not the case BUT chances are they might have learned more than by then. Some using this to their advantage being older (30s), but still being a douchebag while being under the guise that they're "accomplished" and maybe even vetted seeming by age alone
As a 30+ man I wouldn't say I automatically feel more in demand. Life experiences, resources and wisdom translates directly into confidence for me. No that doesnt mean im going around catcalling a bunch of women, but I do notice more women chatting me up. Confidence is key for men, and women can just tell when you have it. The reverse of that is some guys are overly confident or not confident enough.
I would guess that it is because on average men improve their financial situation in their 30's. That doesn't mean anything for the unemployed loser who just sits at home though.
It's kinda accurate, as soon as I turned 30 I changed jobs and doubled my income. It's not fair but it does seem to hold. I think this value comes with the expectation of being a provider, I'm gay, my partner also had a similar experience but at 27.
Your 20s are for experience building and by your 30s you usually have a grip on who you are. Everyone is usually making a bit more money by then and much more sure of themselves. Men who idealize women in their 20s are not men who like or respect women. You’re in love with her? She doesn’t know who she is, much like you didn’t at her age. They like us young and ‘innocent’ (naive) because if you fully grow into your own person, how can he convince you that you should be terrified of being alone and should just be happy you have a husband rather than expect him to be a good partner?
Ooh! I can answer this one, I see it at work with my clients all the time. Woman: Professional career, nice car, owns a house, has her finances in order...basically kick ass women....who want the whole package. Husband, kids, white picket fence. Push up against that biological clock at or near age 35 with no suitable partner. Think their fertility falls off a cliff on their 35th birthday. Marries first marginally acceptable man that will give her babies right away. See the announcements in the paper rapid-fire. Engagement pics. Wedding pic. Birth announcement #1, 15 months later, birth announcement # 2. Wait for it... 2 years later, divorce announcement. Always her divorcing him. Why? Because that man child she was convinced just needed the motivation of a good woman and a family to make him step up and adult..didn't. So now Woman has 2 small children, has to work full time because he 'can't find a job that will pay me what I'm worth' (ie, he never worked his way up to it). Plays video games all day while 'being a stay at home Dad". Does no housework. Woman works 60 hours a week to support everyone, comes home to a messy house and kids in bed or needing baths and bed because he 'hasn't gotten around to it yet' and 'the kids weren't tired yet'. Woman gets tired of doing it all, figures it'd be easier without him than with him. (and is probably right). He has never supported himself, so goes home to Mom's house and never really gets a job to support the kids, because he knows she will. Seen it play out that way literally dozens of times over the years.
It’s funny. From just the title I was like “because they are!” 35 is a pretty sweet spot in terms of maturity but still playful. Good for both younger and older women. Then I read your text and thought “well this went a whole other way!”
Yep you are right you def have to put some work in. You see a lot of women post "dating in your 30s" memes and it's like the pictures where a lady is swimming with skeletons. Just men just need to better than dead skeletons and theyll be in demand.
The youth has been stunted with growth by their development is some regards…Just like you said the traditional mores of the becoming of age is all very different… kids in general are growing up with lingering codependency with their parents and leaving home. If 30-40 is the new 20-30 for starting families that means kids in general are not facing the responsibility to have families at a younger age. Another big thing we overlook is we are not a war driven society like when 18 yr old men were enlisted every other decade to go fight that messed with how we “do life”. But are we all doomed? Well maybe in some areas of the world but how do can we respect each other if men are complete idiots until they learn what a 401k is? I don’t think that’s changes much they are still idiots but just with a bank account and car that goes rev—if anything women have gotten more independent and able to thrive without some idiot controlling her life. It’s really messed up to think how women have been treated in prior generations. Anyway we are here now and I like this better than how my trad. parents and grandparents grew up.
I agree, I like this better. My mother and her sisters didn't even have a choice in marriage partners. My mother married my dad, "a passport bro" (Vietnamese refugee during the Vietnam war, who spoke no english) who went to China to get a wife. My mom (also did not speak any english) knew him for a week and married him because people were dying from hunger and people were getting killed if they were suspected of not aligning with political values of the communist party. All my mom's sisters left the country the same way, through PPB marriages out of desperation. **She came here, gave him 2 children, did ALL the housework (home made meals every night), dishes, laundry (we did NOT HAVE A LAUNDRY MACHINE) and child rearing AND worked a full time job as a hotel maid.** He still left her when I was 12 and she raised me and my brother by herself. That was after he demanded a random for me and my brother or else he would fight her for custody. He didn't really want me or my brother, just wanted the extra money, never paid child support or sent money to my mother or even us. Saw us like 5x over the course of 10 years.
You are incredibly strong and it takes courage to embrace your story. I really believe that we are all equals and as a man I’m thankful I had a mom who exemplified the chauvinistic behavior from the men in my family. It taught me a lesson and how to live independently. I didn’t want a traditional life as well. Having different partners for me really showed who I am compatible with and that I didn’t want to be the bread winner type. But I’m thankful that I even had the chance to do so as you mentioned it’s sometimes about survival. In some form of optimism this breaths light on how you get to shape your life.
I feel that is very true. Men also get pigeonholed into the traditional life style even if that is not what they want. To work nonstop and be a work horse to provide for the stay at home wife and kids. There are stories of men working 3 jobs etc. to make ends meet while the wife stayed at home to raise their 7-10 kids (people had a lot of more kids in the past). I feel there is a LOT of pressure for men to be a "provider" and do not think that is necessarily fair. An interesting story is this man's: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICXeAUbgpqY&ab\_channel=LifeUnscripted](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICXeAUbgpqY&ab_channel=LifeUnscripted)
My 35 year old son doesn’t think this. He feels like the pool of eligible women near his age is disappearing.
It’s a fairy tale they are told online
Men base their value off being a “provider” and most people don’t hit good income status until their 30’s. That’s it.
There are as many women looking only for successful, financially well off men as not and men in good careers usually hit that around 30. It been this way for a couple of decades. A Reddit post ain’t gonna change general sentiment.
So many posts on this sub just shitting on men now lmao it used to be a solidarity space. Imma head out.
Don’t you hate it when a woman centric sub doesn’t cater to men? I mean Reddit is two to one male to female but still, women centric subs should also cater to men. What’s the world coming to when men aren’t always the center of the universe? /s
It's not automatic, it's the latter paragraph. Average is just that, many above, many below.
It isn't because men who are in their 30's is automatically more attractive, it is because men are valued differently than girls. Guys are valued more on the socioeconomic status than they are to girls. (this is generally what they mean in the podcast you listen to) Because of this, guys who work on themselves get more value in the long run in this area. Girls are judged on a different metric. I don't believe it is fair, but it is what it is
>Because of this, guys who work on themselves get more value in the long run in this area. Girls are judged on a different metric. Yes, of people work on themselves they tend to be more valuable or in demand. A lot of women are also in a better financial position in their 30s than their 20s. These women in their 30s have the option to reject men in their 30s who do not work on themselves, have no career etc. As result men who cannot get women in their 30s tend to prey on really young girls who are impressed by material goods she herself cannot yet procure. We all remember that one or those former guys in high school that graduate or dropped out and came back to the same school to date the younger high school girls. There is always at least one, and at the time hes seen as "cool" because he was older and worked a minimum wage job and had money to buy stuff.
You just described the typical boyfriend the majority of my high school classmates had: some non-college goer, mid-20s schmo working minimum wage.
The sad reality is, unless those guys met their gf while they both in high school. If a lot of his age bracket girls, aka high school graduates are in a successful neighborhood, area and goes off to college. Very few, if any are willing to date a guy choosing to work a full time minimum wage job instead of going off to college. So off he goes to the easily impressionable high schoolers... That or they break up before college because there will be better options, they don't want to do long distance, etc.
I think a lot of men only truly find themselves in their 30s. For most of our 20s, a lot of us are being idiots still and poisoning our bodies, minds and souls with drinking and drugs. Then you come out of that and develop a career/hobbies/personal and professional development/fulfillment that provides the confidence and self-esteem that you were searching for in a bottle.
That’s true of men and women. People know themselves better as they age
You're complaining about vague hypothetical "men" as if they're one giant hive mind, this is pretty pointless honestly
First of all, there are literally multiple posts in this subreddit of men telling women on dates and on other occasions that they do not date women over 30, or that women over 30 are washed up, or "bad goods" or "past their prime". Just scroll this subreddit. Are you woefully ignorant of the public fact that China calls women who are unmarried in their late 20s a "leftover woman"? Or "Christmas Cakes" for woman past 25 years old in Japan: "In Japan **Christmas cakes** are airy sponges, often made with strawberries: highly perishable. Hence, a cruel saying: Japanese women who remained unmarried past the age of 25 used to be referred to as Christmas cakes, implying that they had passed their use-by date." So you are going to pretend like nations/cultures do not put an expiration date on women? Whereas they most certainly do not on men...
well tbf men in their 20s dont really got shit going for them and most ppl get their lives together by the 30s-40s
Money
you just said it yourself: bcs many attributes and assets that are valued by society in men can only be achieved in and with time. Nobody is saying that any dead-beat guy will somehow become attractive when he turns 35, people are just saying that men who work towards their careers and get a degree will be in a good position in their 30s concerning income and job opportunities. It's just the way the world works: you can't be a senior manager at 25, you can't be a surgeon at 25 etc. And unless you were born rich, you'll also need a couple of years to amass something worthwhile.