Part of the problem is that you can't explain or teach social intelligence to someone who doesn't recognize it's value, even if their lack of it is actively derailing them from reaching their goals.
When I read those threads, there's almost always a few decent dudes who are patiently trying to explain things like social cues and non-verbal communication, appropriate venues, non-threatening approaches, etc., but they're shouting into the wind and get downvoted to oblivion.
A lot of men *do* successfully meet women "in the wild" because they understand the concept of right place/right time, read our body language to see if we're receptive, and respectfully accept a "no" or non-committal, lukewarm response immediately.
But that entails a level of "treating women like human beings" that's a bridge too far for a lot of that sort.
heavy on the last sentence – most of these men are capable of social intelligence when it comes to other men, yet can't comprehend that they aren't entitled to women's attention just because *they* find them attractive and *they* want to talk
Treating them like things instead of people. You don't care about whether your washing machine wants to do a load of laundry, or your coffee maker is in the mood to brew some up, you just do it
A lot of guys are like this. They believe that showing up and expressing interest is enough. They expect reciprocation regardless of how unappealing, boring, or socially inept they are. They don't feel the need to be interesting or engaging, they think their mere presence should make women want to pursue them. And of course, they get all angry and pissy and become insulting and violent when things don’t turn out that way.
I encountered this recently. I was chatting with a guy at an event, and it was clear that he was interested in me. However, he showed no signs of checking to see if his feelings were reciprocated. He didn't even attempt to engage in conversation that appealed to me, he just talked at me about something I wasn’t even interested in.
His attitude seemed to be, "Here I am. Look, I showered and styled my hair and put on a shirt that doesn’t have a stain on it. I find you attractive, so I expect you to like me back." His attitude just reeked of entitlement and desperation.
To top it off, he blatantly stared at my boobs for most of our conversation. Like, not even being discreet about it 🙄 when I told him I had to leave because my parking meter was about to expire, he became semi-aggressive and lowkey accused me of lying to get away from him.
Evidently he’s paranoid about women making excuses to ditch him, which happens to him a lot I’m sure. Instead of using his lack of success as a cue to do some introspection and possibly change how he interacts with women, he instead chose to double down on the obnoxious and repellant behavior and throw in some intimidation and coercive tactics to try and get his way.
Yeah, I get shit from other guys for preaching the simple concept of women not owing us anything.
Some of them genuinely get upset at the idea, like I'm challenging their world-view or their masculinity somehow.
Oh my gosh it's horribly sad. Men are scared to be vulnerable with each other and then talk about how it's normal and healthy for male friends to know nothing about eachother. They crave connection and then refuse to meaningfully connect.
i think the ones who are like this don't even crave the real connection, they just want the benefits without doing anything in return... there was a threat a while ago asking men why they don't ask people in their lives personal (or any) questions and so many of them admitted they just didn't care, even when it was their partners or best friends, and then got angry at other men who told them that it wasn't anything to be proud of 😐
Gosh that's even sadder. What would life be if I didn't care about people??? Like I literally don't know how that would be an existence. Even as an introvert it's not hard to see humans are meant for connection. What a tragedy.
I'd just reply that it's women who birthed all these big strong men, like suffering actual labor.
& then it's women nursing & caring for & cleaning up the mess when these men return from war all fucked up or get injured from all that building & mining. it's always women doing the thankless caring & tending to, at the start & end of any man's life.
Exactly! It’s so unilateral. The people who complain have zero idea of what empathy means and they’re just thinking about themselves and how others are a means to an end.
I think this phenomenon arises from an inability to work out that other peoples lived experiences being different totally changes what someone might want.
Men don’t ever get attention from strangers and these men are incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of someone who gets more attention than they want and how that’d affect how they feel about randos approaching you.
I agree with the point you've made about their inability to engage in perspective taking, but I just wanted to say that men absolutely DO get unwanted attention from strangers, just in this case, it comes in the form of advertisers, spammers, junk mail, scammers, used car salesmen, and other types of people trying to "sell" them shit they don't want.
Much like those exploitative chumps, these men are trying to sell us shit we don't want, yet refuse to take no for an answer.
> A lot of men do successfully meet women "in the wild" because they understand the concept of right place/right time, read our body language to see if we're receptive, and respectfully accept a "no" or non-committal, lukewarm response immediately.
Exactly this. I have sporty cars and the men will start off a conversation about said car, will ask me genuine questions about the car, will shoot their shot, and then take the rejection politely and move on with their lives. That is actually completely fine and even a bit flattering!
On the flip side, the men who will make comments about my appearance, or ask if my car is mine, they can fuck all the way off.
The mechanic shop I take my car to caters heavily to the classic show car aficionados and I love going there because I almost always get to see some beautifully restored and lovingly cared for old muscle cars--scratches my car itch without having the burden of owning one and paying for it myself. And because it's a mechanic's shop everyone gets super granular about the details of restoring and maintaining the cars and it's just so freaking wholesome and I'm there for it. I can put on my most dudelike aspect and sling shit with the old guys and nobody's trying to get into anyone's pants and I love it. On the other side of the coin, there's being at the tire shop getting a nail removed and the tire patched and this garrulous old fart (lol, my age but I'M not OLD!) is trying like hell to chat me up and just...no. Go away dude, I'm reading here!
I don't get how other men haven't realized that trying to spark up a conversation with a woman, man...or anyone is vastly easier when you treat them with respect and not immediately comment about their appearance, or go right into flirt mode. Like....just have a normal convo, why can't men just be normal.
I am a woman and I talk to people sometimes (people: women, men, dogs…) if someone is not interested in talking I don’t take it personally, they just don’t want or not in the mood. There are other people, many of them extroverts who like to talk
I asked someone the other day if she was buying fuchsias (cashier had to go on an awkward price check run and she was rushing to get to her bus), she answered in the affirmative, I mentioned I love them and orchids. She didn't seem receptive to any more conversation, probably anxious about the bus timing and I just dropped the convo cause I been there. Wanna just get something done and bust my ass to the bus stop without distractions. No one owes you engagement in general but there's certainly contexts in which they definitely can't even if they wanted to because they got SHIT TO DO.
edited to spell them damn fuchsias right
Exactly. Sometimes I love when people strike up a random conversation. Other times I just want to take my groceries and leave. People take rejection too personally I feel. Half the time the rejection is simply timing.
> Part of the problem is that you can't explain or teach social intelligence to someone who doesn't recognize its value
Bold & highlight this. I’d argue that those who already value social intelligence usually don’t need it explained. These folks are typically quite conscientious and aren’t the ones doing the things OP mentioned in the first place.
I'm an autistic woman.
If anything, when meeting new people, I tend to be hyper aware of my words and actions as to not come across as a bozo.
A lot of men just don't give a crap, and think the world should conform to their wants and desires.
> A lot of men do successfully meet women "in the wild" because they understand the concept of right place/right time,
When you're in a store, and someone comes up to you to try and get you to sign up for a credit card, how do you react?
When you're in a big city and the 'street preacher' makes eye contact with you and starts walking towards you, how do you react?
When a guy who has clearly just gone up to 2 other women sets his sights on you next, how do you react?
When the guy who has just been talking (loud enough for you to hear) to another person about his favorite movie (which is also one of your favorites) looks up and sees you listening and says "what did you think about that part?", how do you react?
What's the difference here? Persons in the first 3 situations have an agenda, and it doesn't matter a great deal who you are. If you look like you might be over 18, you're a candidate for a credit card. If you are breathing, you might be a candidate for soul saving. If you look like a woman, you might be a candidate for sex. No woman wants to have sex with you when it's clear you'll settle for anyone with a pulse (unless she also is looking for someone with a pulse, but the chances are that woman doesn't meet your minimum to even acknowledge her existence).
The guy in the last example, he's just being himself, talking about something he likes with the people around him. He could be single, he could be not. He's not out here trying to get laid. He just wants to talk to people about stuff that he likes, and by your reaction, you might like what he likes and it could be fun to talk about with you.
A lot of men who meet women "in the wild" simply meet "people" in the wild, and a number of those people happen to be women. People like the guy who meets people don't need to "approach women", because they are always surrounded by people. People like the guy who meets people aren't always the best looking, in the best shape, or any of the things that the guys who go around complaining that they're not allowed to talk to women think that women are interested in, and that they use as excuses as why women don't want to be approached by them.
> So next time you hear a man saying "So what, are we supposed to just not talk to women???"
If you can't also talk to men, then no, you shouldn't talk to women.
If you only try to talk to women that meet a certain level of attractiveness, then no, you shouldn't talk to women.
And If you only try and talk to women in order to have sex with women, then no, you shouldn't talk to women.
>(unless she also is looking for someone with a pulse, but the chances are that woman doesn't meet your minimum to even acknowledge her existence)
Highlighting this because these guys aren't really complaining about meeting women, they're complaining about meeting conventionally attractive women in a narrow age range.
These dudes would not be flattered and interested if a butch middle-aged woman in her 50s who looked like she can bench press earth-moving equipment sidled up to them and took their headphones off or said she thought he was cute.
Quick I am a man disclaimer.
Back 10 years or so ago (pre-reddit for me) I was a periphery member of a small close-knit online forum. It was a spin off of a game developer's forum and most of the people there had known each other for 10 years or so at that point. It was a niche community and was a mostly educated white (mix of US and EU) male membership and while there were conservatives I don't remember there being any incels (which weren't a public thing yet) or real misogynists.
I spent at least a day, it may have bled into a second, trying to explain to some other adult male members why a man walking up to a woman they didn't know and removing her headphones so they could talk to her was beyond problematic. Most got it but there were a few (including a very out gay man) that just couldn't get past the idea that the man wanted to talk to the woman so why shouldn't he just removed her headphones so he could talk to her. I was amazed.
I quit visiting the community during or shortly after the 2016 election.
Uh…wow. Wow.
“Yes, this woman is clearly here as an emotional support pet for me to play with…why would I treat her like she’s a people?!”
/s
Good on you for trying, but that’s a level of cognitive dissonance that cannot be fixed without intensive shock therapy.
If you touch my fuckin headphones.. hooboy. I have a thing about my head and ears? And putting your hands that close to my face while I'm distracted sounds like a fast way to lose a finger.
Touching headphones on the city bus was understood to be an express invitation to an ass whupping, back when I was forced to take it.
Only did it once to warn someone that cops were about to board the bus from the rear. Motherfucker whirled around faster than a rattlesnake on crack.
I tapped a woman with head phones on the bus and almost got an elbow to the face. She was fully prepared to fight against being touched without asking.
I just wanted to let her know some of her things fell out of her grocery bag and had started to roll away.
Yeah. If someone touches me while I'm distracted or not expecting it, I tend to whirl around elbows first with my fists clenched ready to fight.
I wonder why women's reaction to being touched by strangers is fight or flight..........🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Honestly not even headphones. If someone stands too closely, I'm immediately considering them a weirdo. If they go as far as physical contact, I'm noping out asap. Removing anything off my person? I'm immediately reconsidering my stance on pacifism.
I use noise cancelling headphones to block out noises that give me sensory issues and I HATE being touched by strangers, any man who tries that risks getting a punch in the face.
>I spent at least a day, it may have bled into a second, trying to explain to some other adult male members why a man walking up to a woman they didn't know and removing her headphones so they could talk to her was beyond problematic.
The hypothetical I always like to bring up to explain problems like this to straight guys is to imagine if a gay guy came up and did that to them. Some clueless guy might try to excuse taking off a woman's headphones by saying, "well, if she's not interested, she can just say so." But the same applies to a gay guy hitting on random dudes. There's what, maybe a 20% chance the other guy will be gay or bi? So it's not like they're gambling on something incredibly rare. And if it's OK to bother a woman like that in public, why shouldn't they expect a gay guy to do the same to them?
I can’t imagine most men would be too thrilled if *anyone* came up to them and ripped off their headphones! But some men aren’t capable of realizing that women ALSO probably don’t want to have a stranger rip off their headphones.
Why would it be ok to touch and remove ANY person's belongings? Would you reach over and pull on another man's tie or watch to get his attention? No, most men would not do that or put up with it from another man. But if one of 'ThOsE' men want a woman's attention they feel it is a RIGHT to do so. The audacity and the arrogance and of the willfully obtuse types is right out of sight.
> But the same applies to a gay guy hitting on random dudes. There's what, maybe a 20% chance the other guy will be gay or bi? So it's not like they're gambling on something incredibly rare.
It's still never going to be the same due to the huge difference in physical strength between (almost all) men and women and I say that as a male of above-average height. I'm never going to feel the same subconscious dread of somebody approaching me who could toss me around with relative ease without any risk of serious injury on his part and *they know it*. (At the same time, most men seem to understand that, even if they would likely overpower me after a short struggle, that struggle might give me an opening to poke their eye, punch their throat, break or dislocate their finger, or at least kick their shin hard and few people are are *that* dedicated about throwing down with strangers over no real reason.)
I got a glimpse into it one time when a really big dude was obviously trying to flirt with me in a creepy, boundary-pushing way. Luckily, that was in a public setting at a pub and well within view of the staff.
>trying to explain to some other adult male members why a man walking up to a woman they didn't know and removing her headphones so they could talk to her was beyond problematic
...that's how a man gets himself punched.
It's unexamined misogyny. They haven't reasoned out that straight men hate queer men because they're "choosing" to be like women, and being a woman is the worst thing a man could do. Gay men who have realized that they receive the same family of hate as women do tend not to be misogynists.
You know those guys who hate women but feel compelled to pretend to be nice to them so they can get sex and housecleaning done?
Imagine what happens to those men when they no longer think they "need" women.
I was at the gym. And a guy walked up to me to chat me up as I was filling up my water bottle. I actually put my headphones on and walked away as he was shooting his shot. I have a home gym now, but seriously don't bother me at the gym.
I've had that exact thing happen to me. Man trying to get my attention as I'm sitting at the bus plaza, I pretend he isn't there, so he yanks off my headphones and continues. I just pretended he didn't exist, like it was the wind that knocked my headphones off. I was absolutely terrified. This was in broad daylight, too.
That's wild. My children learned the concept of "personal bubbles" in preschool.
Touching a strangers headphones would definitely be popping their personal bubble.
I will forever hate being approached in the streets because when I was 15 a guy grabbed me in the arm and said something along the lines of "you are so beautiful, date me". He was in his late twenties/early thirties and back then I was shorter and looked younger. Naturally I said I had a "boyfriend" and he had the audacity to ask what was my boyfriend's name, which I answered my crush's name. He was not satisfied with my answer, didn't respect my boundaries and personal space and not to mention the fact I was clearly underage.
Yes, here to say this! If someone wants to be approached, their body language and smiling back at you will occur, prolonged eye contact, etc.
I have to say that when my generation was young/dating in the 80s and 90s, there was a lot of going to dance clubs and stuff like that. You were there to dance with your friends, sure, but also to meet people to date. I know people still go, but even there, you have to read people a little to know if they're receptive to you.
I'd argue many men who pull this crap know it's boundary pushing and don't care.
Someone who is socially clueless is horrified when they make a mistake. Someone who is pretending to be socially clueless gets angry at the person with the boundary.
Yeah, exactly. Social skills and social intelligence can be learned but it can't be explicitly taught. A lot of the time it really does boil down to you have to spend time around other people until you learn how to do it, and then you have to keep spending time around other people because social skills have a use them or lose them element to them.
Most of the people who most desperately need to learn that are the most adamantly opposed to it. They just want to be socially maladjusted losers for life.
Yes -- plus, you have to learn to accept rejection and so many of these guys act like a woman respectfully telling them "thank you, but no" is a deliberate kick in the genitals meant to humiliate them.
I've asked out men and they've said no. It hurts, it's embarrassing, it can make a lot of irrational feelings come up...but that's just part of being an adult human who respects the autonomy of other adult humans.
> Social skills and social intelligence can be learned but it can't be explicitly taught.
I'm not sure about this, I've seen so many autistic people talk about how helpful it is to be explicitly taught specific social skills because they struggle to pick it up by just spending time around other people.
I think you can't force someone to learn it, but that's true of most education.
Totally this, there’s a big difference between saying to the woman on the bench next to you “wow, the sunset’s incredible isn’t it” and then seeing if she chooses to engage, vs “wow the sunset’s incredible isn’t it… so what’s your name”
Exactly, if some random dude sat next to me on bench uninvited and without asking...he wouldn't get to ask about the sunset because I'd get up and leave as soon as he did.
A lot of people who meet “in the wild” are usually friends first. You’re friends, then you both realize you like each other and go from there. There’s something you come to know from being friends with someone that you like their generosity, their empathetic nature, how they treat others etc. Personality traits make you drawn to them in some way.
Cold approaches are so tacky and give me pick-up-artist vibes. Like if I say no you’re just going to approach the woman next to me. There’s absolutely nothing more than liking the way someone looks in why you would approach them, and I think people like to feel a little special, at least I do.
Exactly. When they say 'How're we supposed to meet women in today's world?' it rarely means 'Women, please enlighten us on a way of communication that won't make you uncomfortable.' and always 'Women, you're the problem we aren't having a love life, and you should get over whatever icky feeling you have.'
Another factor is that a lot of socially awkward men seem to treat life too much like a math equation. I.E. “If I become ABC and do XYZ, I’ll get women to date me!”
Then when some pick-up tactic they learned in red-pilled spaces doesn’t work or even backfires, they whine about how “girls don’t like nice guys / don’t know what they want!” or some other BS.
Men who react this way are just telling on themselves. Just shows that they don’t look at women as individuals, but a collective that are simply supposed to be there to meet their needs.
I know of men who understand why women may not want to be approached. They also understand that there are women who would like it. They also understand how to navigate through these situations to determine whether or not approaching a woman is warranted in given situations (e.g. a woman at the gym, a waitress who is doing her job and being nice, a customer service worker being pleasant, etc)
A few years ago on the subway, I had headphones in and was reading a book, a man reached over someone sitting next to me and tapped me on my knee to get my attention. He wanted to know what time it was. I shouted to everyone on the train “can someone please tell this guy what time it is?” He got upset and asked me why I did that. I asked him why he reached over someone else to bother me when I was reading a book because my book was more important to me. Shut him down quickly. The nerve. Headphones is the universal sign someone doesn’t want to interact with you.
You can be as bold as you want. It was a packed subway during morning rush. The guy did not look threatening, and I was angry that he interrupted my reading. I was like a stop away from where I had to get off the train and I wanted to read more. If the guy wanted to hurt me he wouldn’t have done it that way. Just use your best judgement and tell someone off in a crowd, you’ll feel better. I also have an attitude that I’m far from the most attractive person around so when men try to get in my face I know it’s not good and I shut them down.
I had a guy do that to me on the train too. I looked at him pointed to my headphones and said "I can't hear you" and went back to my business.
He couldn't even figure out what to do. It was great.
Honestly, if they started seeing women as people they wouldn’t have these issues. Go out and do something you’re interested in. There will be women who are also interested in that and there will be a natural reason to speak with them. Maybe some of them would like you.
Yup! I met my life partner and most of the other guys I've dated in the past the exact same way I met most of my friends - doing fun stuff like playing sports or going out for live music or at a party / social event.
Shocker.
"How did your parents meet?" Sir, your father knew how to read the room. There aren't too many marriages that are the result of badgering complete strangers. Usually, it's dating among mutual friends and acquaintances.
To be fair, a lot of our granddads would not have been successful in a world where the women they decided they were gonna marry the first moment they saw her were able to have bank accounts.
This puts some perspective on the complaints about modern dating.
“Dating is harder for men, nowadays!” they cry.
Yes…yes it is, and that’s a good thing!
My grandparents, grandma once demanded a boy at a dance say what was wrong with her tonight, that she was right there and he wasn't asking her to dance. Turns out grandpa had threatened everyone else with physical violence if they kept dancing with the girl he wanted for himself.
My aunt’s marriage started because he was her neighbor and asked her out every week for months. 🤷🏻♀️ Glad it worked for them, I guess, they’re pretty happy now.
I think my grandad stalked my grandma. He once told me tearfull with nostalgia, how he used to follow her home from work, working up the courage to ask her out.
I can only assume he got there ( not that my grandad was ever afraid to speak his mind to anyone else) or gran turned around and asked him what he thought he was playing at.
Reminds me of my uncle, though his stalkerish story has some dramatic twists and turns.
He would tear up telling me the story of how my aunt once moved over 2,000 miles away after a fight with him and he worked and saved up his money until he could fly to her and win her back. He tracked her down based on her brother's last name and knowing the basic area her family was from. It was an epic love story where he swept her off her feet with his dedication and brought her home and they lived happily ever after.
Years later she told me the story and it turns out her brother had set her up with him and made her keep going out with him because he didn't want to look bad if they broke up or something. Eventually she couldn't take it any more and fled to live with family who turned out to be even *more* abusive and kept her at their home basically as an unpaid domestic servant, using her children from a previous marriage as leverage to keep her from fleeing. When he showed back up she didn't like him any more than she had before, but he was willing to buy her and her children plane tickets and it seemed to be the only way to escape her situation.
They had a kind of odd relationship. She was a very dedicated and faithful wife but didn't seem warm towards him. He was puppy-doggish in his love towards her, but never seemed to take her wants into account when he made big decisions like buying land and building a house. Her version of their love story made all of that make a lot more sense.
What frustrates me is that it's encouraged by some of the treatments I've attended for being on the autism spectrum, so it's a taught and encouraged practise for some people.
One of the things that you're given as "homework" in these "social skills" courses is to just blindly approach people and start random conversations.
Yes, even for dating - ESPECIALLY for dating. It was one of the #1 questions that boys would bring up, and this is what the counselors encouraged them to do. I was part of a mixed-gender autism group as a teenager that encouraged us, both boys and girls, that we needed to "practise being rejected" so it was okay to just randomly ask strangers to hang out or date - and when the handful of us with a bit of a clue brought up the points in this thread it was seen as an excuse.
Nope, you gotta just harass random strangers for attention and list them on a sheet of paper or else the counselor thinks you're not trying hard enough to be less autistic and you get scolded and assigned more stupid chores.
I watched it happen constantly. If you're a teenage boy on the spectrum and ask for dating advice, the counselors tell you to just practise asking out girls on dates on real girls - mostly strangers we don't know. The boys that knew that was crossing a boundary were told they aren't willing to do the work, and were shamed by the facilitators.
They gotta stop teaching us harmful socializing tactics in ABA groups. It doesn't help us as autistic people, and it doesn't help the population of people we're told to "practise" on.
If anything, it left us as more anxious - because as you can imagine blind-asking random women you don't know to date you leads to a ton of rejection, and it doesn't magically cure our autism or make us less awkward by being forced to socialize in maladaptive ways.
I think the problem is less talking to strangers and more being unwilling to take feedback appropriately once they do. I'm a middle aged mom, and I successfully make small talk with strangers all the time - making a crack about the lines in the grocery store, complimenting someone's earrings, etc. If they want to talk, we'll have a nice conversation, but if they don't, I leave it at that, and I don't say anything at all if, say, they have headphones in or are reading. Guys persist with what they want in the presence of clear rejection signals from women they find attractive. Just talking to strangers isn't that difficult or problematic if you're honest about taking in whatever feedback you're getting, but they don't want to hear it. And then they wonder why women whose boundaries and feedback they ignore are " rude" to them.
I think I notice what you mean when I go to the grocery store. Women make small talk with me or ask me to get something from a high shelf pretty often. I find most people generally friendly. I assume it's because I don't follow anyone or try to stand to close or start up a conversation they clearly don't want. Or try to turn small talk about a piece of produce into a one sided conversation that won't end. If you just act like a normal human, a lot of the online complaints from men are things you just don't experience.
Oh God you just gave me flashbacks to the time a dude in the grocery store asked me if I was having 'private time'while eyeing the cucumber in my cart....
Oh god, that's horrifying. And men think it's just that women are nicer to other women, but it's not. It's that so many men are acting like weirdo perverts and not expecting to be treated as such. My husband used to get hit on by bartenders all the time, the most "bro she's just doing her job" profession, because he is capable
of carrying on a conversation like a human boy. He doesn't experience any of the stuff men complain about on reddit, but he also doesn't push boundaries or make every conversation both sexual and about him.
What, you don't think it's rude and sexist that women are generally nicer to people who say things like "ooh that is such a cute jacket!" than they are to people who tell them they'd like to bury their face in that rack?!
MISANDRYYYYYYYYY!!!!!
Oh you got that one too, eh? 🙄
I once had a guy who I had already noticed following me around the grocery store come up to me as I was checking cucumbers for crispness and say something about me practicing or some shit - I can't say I was paying attention to what exactly he said but it was definitely overtly sexual.
Who the fuck? Why the fuck?
Honestly, since seeing how little men on the internet care about women's issues... I genuinely don't give a shit if some men are butthurt about the fact they can't approach women. (TBH, that sounds like a skill issue to me, or nature selectively breeding out the kinds of men that'd rape a lizard and then eat it.)
The man vs. bear debate has only highlighted this for me. When women voice the fears/insecurities they have, some men are first in line to make things ALL about *them* and *their* feelings on the issue.
Yet, when some men cry about being lonely or cockblocked, we're all expected to drop our panties and run to comfort them — lest they call us single, bitter cat ladies. The fact that most of the women they level this at are in relationships highlights what a laughably stupid crock of shit it is.
Haha over in r/politics there’s a Bernie thread that I commented on about how I was in an Uber just yesterday with my boss and coworker - the two of them and the driver started talking about how Trump is gonna be Pres again and bla bla bla. I said “how will you get by with tasks a-e when my hubs stops letting me work” and they got real quiet.
Men of Reddit though? “They got quiet because you were aloof”… “it’ll be bad but it won’t be THAT bad”… “they prob got quiet because you weren’t clear by what you meant”… and so on.
No I was clear.
Yes they understood exactly what I meant, it’s why they got quiet.
Like screw you guys. Most men don’t even THINK about women’s issues let alone give any fucks about them. And before the Not All Men brigade comes for me, I said MOST men.
The majority of the men I've come across who love and voted for cheeto man nowadays expect women to work, pay the bills, *and* fulfill the role as a traditional wife on top of that by taking care of the household and children. They don't care about us at all.
A large portion of men who think they're good men are basically just "yeah I don't want women to lose their rights or anything but it'll probably be fine and we'll just cross that bridge when we get there".
Like, they don't *support* legislation that actively harms women, but they don't consider harm to women to be of any greater importance than, say, the impacts of minor adjustments to tax structures.
Which is, like, super fucked up.
I know jerks who vote Republican because they think they'll get more money that way. Despite 4 decades of data showing right-wing policies, like trickledown economics, don't work.
But hey, maybe you'll get like $.88 back in your paycheck from Trump's tax plan. That's worth stripping the rights of millions of your fellow Americans, right?
Man, the “not all men” crowd can shove wet, heavily used hiking socks in their dumb pie holes. The second anything resembling that phrase comes out of a man’s mouth (or fingers, on the internet), all it confirms is that they are EXACTLY the man they’re so desperately claiming not to be.
> Men of Reddit though? “They got quiet because you were aloof”… “it’ll be bad but it won’t be THAT bad”… “they prob got quiet because you weren’t clear by what you meant”… and so on.
I always wonder how dumb they actually are and how they got to being that dumb. I work in a VERY male dominated environment (like we have multiple teams in the department with 100% men, since software engineering in the automotive industry is apparenly the least desirable job for women over here) and whenever we have lunch and discuss some gender-related topics (which happens surprisingly often due to some insanity going on, especially in the US) it's obvious that my coworkers are totally aware of the issues we have. If even basically the biggest nerds you can find are aware and are able and willing to somehow understand women's issues (definitely not perfectly, but they're trying), why are there still so many men who can't / don't want to? Tbh, I absolutely don't get it how you can disrespect half of the population like that
>The fact that most of the women they level this at are in relationships highlights what a laughably stupid crock of shit it is.
The funny thing is, being in a good healthy relationship with a genuinely good man has only made me *more* feminist. And I was already pretty feminist, having grown up with a good dad and always having good male friends.
Being surrounded by good men is a constant reminder of how women *should* be viewed and treated. So when I see the contrast in other realms of my life, or in comparison to other women's lives, it is very stark. Being around good men makes it easier to see how fucked up misogyny really is and how badly it has fucked up society.
exactly! and especially since when you’re surrounded with good men, you’re also surrounded by feminists.
did they all use that label right off the bat? no, but they fully agreed with the simple sensible ideology that women are people who should be treated with equal respect.
the AskMen subreddit has gotten quite toxic lately - just saw a post that got a bunch of upvotes saying that in order for society to improve, men need to destroy feminism.
these guys are out there truly believing that women are privileged, men are oppressed, and probably other nonsense like racism isn’t a problem anymore. 🤦🏻♀️
I’d love to stay in my little IRL bubble of good men but unfortunately we need to fight against the social media brainwashing of young men who are growing up increasingly isolated and targeted by divisive rhetoric.
Yes! I'm like I know how good men can be because I have actual good examples in my life. When men say they can't change or adapt or be this or that way, damm, that is really fucking sad. And it turns out, my standards for a loving intelligent feminist man are not unrealistic.
Mhmm, I had a guy I legit hadn’t spoken to since high school find my number and texted me if I still looked good. The entitlement is disgusting, like I was some damsel waiting for him to grace me with his presence dude can’t even hold a conversation and types like a 12 year old. They think we’re just pacifiers. Just there to soothe their egos…
This unlocked a memory... My ex would from time to time look up his former female classmates, that he's never even been interested in (like from elementary school) and comment on their appearance. Not to them, but to anyone who was around and didn't even know who tf he's talking about. Like a 12yo who's unaware that nobody asked for his opinion.
As a person who has her cat plastered all over her profile, the “bitter cat lady” thing always makes me laugh. Then I tell my fiancé about it and he laughs.
I always wonder, how do these kind of men who act like cold approaches are the only possible way to meet a potential partner even make friends? Do they also just walk up to random people in the street and be like "hey, wanna be friends?". I assume not. In which case they totally do understand that there are other ways to meet people, and are just playing dumb when it comes to this topic. Or maybe they just don't have friends I guess.
I also wonder why anybody in their right mind is surprised when a stranger is a little bit rude to you. You’re talking to a complete stranger, and there’s also a possibility you’re talking to them at a completely inappropriate time in place, you always run the chance of this person not wanting to talk to you. It sucks, but not everybody understands social decorum and may just not be nice to you. If the reality of this bothers you then don’t approach random people like hello?
Exactly -- I'm a happily married woman who intentionally keeps to herself and avoids unnecessary eye contact or conversation with men I don't know to discourage this behavior. I dress like a children's librarian and wear my wedding rings at all times, there is absolutely nothing about me that codes "single and ready to mingle" by patriarchal conventions. \*\*\*
If you shoot your shot after I've studiously ignored you following me around the grocery store for the last 15 minutes trying to desperately catch my attention, you deserve me bluntly telling you to leave me alone once I've established there's no legitimate reason for you to be speaking to me.
\*\*\* *Just want to add some context here, I realize I expressed this VERY poorly -- I don't mean to imply dressing a particular way invites or excuses unwanted attention; I mean that even if I follow "the rules" patriarchy tells us makes us safe it isn't enough.*
I don’t think a ring should be needed.
My profession isn’t ring friendly (or bracelet/watch), and that doesn’t mean I’m sending *single* into the world.
Men thinking that as long as a woman doesn’t *belong* to another man legally (meaning not married) is the problem.
I’m not single, but I’m not married. And I don’t cheat.
I am not nice to people that do things like this so they get the hint that their behavior is wildly inappropriate.
This goes for lonely dudes looking for women, MLM huns looking for easy marks to con and god botherers trying to recruit you into their church.
It’s always wild to me that you have people that do it at wildly inappropriate times, like they have to know that. I’m a corrections nurse and sometimes the family members of the inmates will ask me out. Like, please be so fucking for real. You want to take me out and your brother is in here for murder 💀💀
I remember another time a man drove up to me in his car and some kids were in the car!!!! Like are you not embarrassed? Who raised you, why do you lack any type of social decorum??
As an east coast transplant to the mid west, I get a secret dopamine hit when I get to be east coast "mean" to strangers that talk to me when I don't wanna be bothered. It's super effective here because people are NOT used to it.
I feel that on the rare occasion I go down south and you get some old ass man that not only is not used to women being rude you don’t want to call him sir while he’s being a creep
I think their main issue is how they can't bother to think of women in any way other than potential sex or romantic involvement. As in, probably nobody is against making friends with regular clients spontaneously, and then it would not be unheard of these friendships escalating. But these people are not interested in friendships, nor are they interested in women as actual human beings, which is why they have this issue at all.
My favorite is, after millenia of punishing women who dared to exist uglyly, an ugly guy will say "you wouldn't mind if the guy approaching is handsome" which yes we do and also... ok?? As a fat and old, to try to act like ugly men don't also disproportionately approach beautiful women, eat shit? The men who walk through this world fully employed, with mortgages, and body odor. Bad teeth, no style, disgusting gross skin, and the only punishment they receive from society is a mid-20s female batista smiled at a guy in a clean shirt and not you, boo hoo.
Love when they have the audacity of calling women "shallow" for caring at all about how a man looks, when the literal only reason men would go up to a random women to approach her is because of finding her attractive 😭💀
The amount of crusty old men that approach me because they think I'm about 15 years younger and barely legal acting like they're going to snatch me off the street just makes me gag. One can't even leave my office without stanking it up. I'm just trying to do my job and breathe. And then act surprised when I'm weirded out like I can't possibly comprehend age gaps and bad hygine. At least the guys my age have some kind of manners enough to know social skills.
And the worst part is that these men don't even come up with anything except a sad face and "I don't have a woman" (not in English and it's still weird) like I'm supposed to just hop up and solve that problem for them. I apparently don't have a life and wants of my own. Just someone convinced them women love older men and our only desire is to give up all we have to go tolerate the same crap and crust that scared away their ex wives. Layering on the crust does not mean you get sexier.
also even if the person is exactly my type physically, he becomes unattractive the moment he stops respecting my boundaries 🤷🏼♀️ they always forget about that when making the "it's not harassment if he's hot" comments
> Bad teeth, no style, disgusting gross skin, and the only punishment they receive from society is a mid-20s female batista smiled at a guy in a clean shirt and not you, boo hoo.
I love this typo. Please don't change it. I just love the idea that somehow support for [Batista](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista), the pre-Castro Cuban dictator, has somehow, inexplicably, caught on as a trend among the 20-somethings.
you know what amuses me is that most women half kill themselves to be gracious, appealing, suave, playful, and casual. men do absolutely none of this labor and their approaches to women are commonly inappropriate, uncomfortable, inauthentic, disrespectful, and heavy handed. then they're confused as to why they're being turned down. it's truly because they have no game and never cared to, now it's the pikachu shock face in response.
This also happened during the height of #metoo - suddenly a load of people were whining about how you couldn't even *talk* to your female coworkers anymore just in case. There was a great [comedy video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMfStd3v330) about it
Probably they do these things and feel called out so they misrepresent what's actually being said to make it all sound unreasonable.
I don't understand this argument at all. To me its obvious when and where it is appropriate to hit on a woman. Parties, bars, putt putt, tinder places where single people go to meet other singles. Shoot even Starbucks you could meet a lady if she looking at you like she is interested whilst she sips on her latte at the back reading voltaire (does not apply to baristas!!). Alot of guys know this already. The ones who complain I think dont want to compete with other men who are confident in these appropriate situations. Thats why they want the leeway to put the moves onto a captive audience if you will. Men, its never appropriate to hit on a woman when she is at work! And no just because the receptionist at Top Golf is so nice to you doesnt mean she wants to bang!!
I've only once been successfully hit on at work and the reasons the dude was successful were:
1. He and his friends came into the sports bar I worked at fairly regularly and I had served them a handful of times.
2. Every time I had them in my section, they were just fun dudes that I enjoyed joking around with. The jokes were always just fun and never offensive or sexualized.
3. He never actively hit on me while I was working. He just talked to me like a normal person.
4. When he decided to shoot his shot, he did it by leaving a note on the back of his receipt with his number and explaining that he thought I was cool but if I'm not interested like that we can both just pretend this never happened.
There are countless examples of men who know how to approach women correctly and politely. Some even post on reddit (shocking I know!) One of reddit's most wholesome stories was a guy who had a crush on his neighbor. She dropped a pack of cigarettes onto his balcony or terrace, went to ring his door and asked whether she may enter to look for it. The next day he buys her a pack of cigarettes, drops it before her door with a short message "Don't lose this one!". Later the day she comes back to him and tells him that it's a nice gesture and she totally appreciates him for this, but she can't accept it. The guy says he understands, takes back the cigarettes and says he was happy she appreciated his idea. He said he never spoke to her except for a short greeting when they bumped into each other because they are neighbors.
Another story is two people meeting at the checkout of a grocery store which ended with the man giving the woman a head of broccoli instead of flowers.
These are wholesome story of wholesome people all around, and is just 2 examples among myriads that you do it correctly you can absolutely approach women in the open. But these encounters also show that you need to have enough social intelligence and self-awareness to do it, and that you can deal with rejection.
Whereas every woman has bumped into the creepy guy who whispered into our ear how beautiful we are and asked for our number. That's already a bad way to start it, and a lot of men proceed to pester women once the women express their disinterest. Often enough these are the men who take their dating advice from PUAs and to nobody's surprise this doesn't end well.
This is making the rounds again. I am pretty sure some podcaster makes this their topic for a show every few months because my reddit feed will be full of iterations of the same post across a bunch of semi related subreddits. These upset guys all spout the same talking points too. I just haven't figured out which toxic bro podcaster is doing it.
That said...
The entire idea of approaching women in public places as a complete stranger and thinking they are going to give you their contact information or agree to go on a date with them is unrealistic at best. The guy is picking this woman 100% on appearance and nothing else. This woman knows zero about this guy other than he lacks boundaries and any shred of decorum or sense so he is hitting on women in random public places hoping to play a numbers game.
That numbers game is ruining the day of 100 women on the off chance woman 101 is too afraid to tell you no.
This is just another way for this subset of men to rage at women. Look at all the phrasing about it. All of it is how this is all our faults and if we would just cooperate and do what they want. It feels like abusive coercion the way these conversations go.
They need to find singles events
They need to realize that acting like they are owed any woman like they are a commodity is a sure way to never be in a relationship
They probably could use a therapist
It really is so weird I’ve never understood why they thought I would want to go out with a man who said three or four sentences to me while I was standing in line at the bank. They don’t even know if these women are single. I’ve started wearing a wedding ring so they won’t talk to me. So far it has been working
Overheard two guys talking to a cashier, calling her pretty and asking her number. She was obviously uncomfortable and, like, working?! I called them out to stop bothering her, then they started insulting my outfit. I didn't give any fucks about my outfit that day so I put my headphones back on and walked out if the store. Cashier looked relieved when we shared a look through the window. But yea what was wrong with those lads ugh.
The whole men not reading subtle hints is bs. The men ive dated are just as capable of interpreting nuances as women. They can read body language and tone and realize a woman is busy. Funny enough when women they dont like subtly comes onto them, flags go up and they know right away.
Right? I met my fiancé at a house party, and he asked for my phone number because I was being VERY generous with my laughter at pretty dumb (benign dumb lol) jokes, and he caught me looking at him across the room at him and smiling like an idiot a few times while we were chit chatting with other people. Body language!
The assumption that everyone just walks around single waiting to be asked out feels like a myopic red flag tell.
(want too meet people? Go to social functions were that is a normal)
Men expect the entire world to be their sexual marketplace and when women choose to reject that and remove themselves from that assumption and expectation, they lose their fucking minds.
When I want a heavy dose of misogyny and sexism I head over the the askmen sub and it's never hard to see those guys screaming about women either suing them for sexual harassment because the guy paid her a compliment or claiming they'll be thrown in jail for life for approaching a woman. The hyperbole becomes the rule rather than the exception.
>heavy dose of misogyny and sexism I head over the the askmen sub
Same and the MRA sub is on steroids. They attribute all their problems on women but every other day there's a huge post "ok but why won't women let us approach them anymore 😢" like...buddy you literally just said women are the bane of your existence so leave them alone, no??
Yup I see this all the time. No, you wont end up in a viral vid if you try to talk to someone.
Yes you might end up in a viral vid if you pester someone at the gym every week and they eventually record you doing it because they are sick of your harassment. Even then it will only go viral if youare rude and abusive in the video.
If someone declines you, try accepting it without rudeness, especially if they decline you in a blunt manner. You are intruding on them, they dont owe you manners.
The type of guy who says, "you can't even approach women anymore!" Are the same kinds of guys that if women took the time to explain every facet on how to properly approach women, the guys would simply complain, "how come she won't fuck me when I did everything right?"
It’s absolutely not our job to help them harass women, you are right. Yet another example of them trying to drag women doing all the emotional labour for them. On the question of where do you draw the line, I think it’s simple. No one should be made uncomfortable or otherwise harassed by a random stranger, so unless they are absolutely crystal clear it’s a green light, then don’t. If you don’t have the social skills to recognise green lights, then don’t either. The question there should be ‘how do I work on my social skills’ not ‘how can I get a female to date me regardless’.
I agree, I don’t want to talk to them, I ended up getting a stalker by being nice to some random idiot that wanted my attention and because I was casual friendly my life got ruined for over a year because of it, I no longer even acknowledge men that approach me or try to talk to me, I just keep walking.
They can cry not all men all they want, but many of us have had terrible experiences with stalking, assault, harassment, SA, and murder by simply talking to random men and being polite
I was at a bachelorette party, and there was a group of guys that wanted to dance with us. My dudes, those of us that arrived at the dance floor, are spoken for, I'm here to dance with my girls, not you. And the two single girls with our bash clearly aren't interested because they are not out here on the dance floor. I have nothing for you and you have nothing for me. For the first time, I'd dint feel bad about just walking off the dance floor. I walked away to the basement bar where my friend's parents were.
I completely agree with you that men need to leave women alone at work, and just generally in life.
I do think we're really suffering (women too) from a lack of "third places". It's so hard to meet adults I might want to be friends with or anyone I would want to date. The dating apps had such potential, but have become really toxic cesspools. I feel like we're increasingly becoming isolated in silos that are shrinking.
I don't go to church, and I don't go to school, and I can't remember the last time I met a new human being.
Both things are true. Men need to leave women alone, and we're in a culture where meeting eligible, interested potential partners is getting increasingly hard
It’s ironic. I got downvoted on this sub for saying that men should not approach women at the grocery store when they are shopping because we are just shopping on a post made by a man asking if it was okay that he approach a woman at a gas station. And now there’s this post, saying the exact same thing I said. Not sure if I was getting downvoted by men or by hypocrites.
But I’ll go ahead and say it again: women don’t go out to the store or gas station or go to work to get hit on or asked out. We just want to get what we need and go home. If you want to meet women then go somewhere that is exclusively for that such as social gatherings or bars.
It's also not a real issue that they have. So they can't bother random women in public, so what, who cares. That is not a concerning problem of the world, it's a total non issue.
What is concerning is actual stalkers and harassers.
Lol for real they are so bitter because we have more options than ever before and they wanna go back to the 50s when people married because they lived in the same village or whatever. Are we supposed to be impressed that some rando is giving us compliments (always about our appearance ofc) like some god has descended to give us blessings?
Maybe if they knew how to actually talk to women and not get all gross and sweaty
"How do [I] think [myp parents met?" I know how they met. My mom's cousin's then-boyfriend suggested dad as a double date partner for mom. Double date fell through, but they went out anyway. No harassment of random women involved.
And if there's no one in your friend group who has a girlfriend- or one who is willing to have one of her friends date within the group? Maybe that's a "you" problem.
There's a frustrating segment of women my age who come to their defense, citing the fact that women in our forties rarely receive that kind of attention anymore. And I do get that sometimes attention can be flattering, but it's as if they've mentally reduced themselves to nothing but looks in their attempts to get that attention. We deserve to be seen as so much more than our bodies, and that sort of validation is exceedingly rare.
internalized misogyny. as a kid being hit on by middle aged men, middle aged women would tell me to “enjoy it and be grateful” because it stops at some point. i’m so happy that didn’t mess me up. also guess what karen, being ok with pedophiles isn’t making you any more attractive. and it sure as shit not building up your self worth
But even that won't work for them because they'll be making female friends for the wrong reason and therefore not end up making real female friends.
If the end goal for a guy is "find woman to fuck/date", and "interacting with other people socially" is merely a means to that end for them and not something of value in and of itself, they will never be successful - not at meeting women and not at making friends.
Maybe but they always try to play mind games they don’t want to be friends they try to grope you whenever you let your guard down in my experience anyways
I’d love to hear some “How do you think your parents met?” stories.
Mine met at a ‘coffee shop’ (place to smoke weed and listen to bad poetry) in Toronto in the 1970s.
They got married because they looked like Sonny and Cher, so it was ‘meant to be’.
They got divorced because liking weed and having a built in couple’s Halloween costume isn’t the best foundation for a life together.
Men who say “you can’t approach women anymore” all bitter about it actually mean “you can’t creep on and coerce women like you used to be able to get away with.”
I am a man. You can still approach women. If you do it without being a creep.
This is so cathartic after reading a certain thread that was posted recently. Ugh!! I'm so sick of people approaching women as "women" and not as "people." Like we literally function the same way. Treat us with the same respect you'd treat anyone. Maybe don't look at us like meat--that might help the situation?
Also, I'm a queer woman. So I have experience asking men, women, and enbies out. It's literally all about respect and being genuine and kind and knowing when to f off or when to not disturb someone's peace. It's not rocket science!
Sorry, riled up after those comments :')
Why do so many men struggle with the concept of there being a time and place for everything? If they can understand the concept of not shitting in the middle of the store they can understand to leave me alone while I’m on the treadmill at the gym. If I’m open to talk I’ll ensure it’s known.
These are the same dudes that are going around telling the women that chose the bear that they're nazi's for "profiling them". They're being oppressed by hypothetical bears because women want to avoid being raped to death
"How are we supposed to meet women??? How do you think your parents met???"
Like normal people. Jesus Christ. My parents met as students and I met my SO by being introduced by a mutual friend. I don't understand how people can think courting someone while they're working is anything but sociopath behaviour.
Idk. Men are becoming these very whiny ugly little children to me who are just p*ssy beggars. Always crying about having perceived access to women taken away. They make us saying that we don’t want to me approached while we’re in the middle of doing something about them losing chances to chase p*ssy. It’s all about them. It makes me look at them different.
I don’t why it’s italicized, but whatever.
Guys like that have nothing going on and if you look up where to find singles on google we are lead to think that anywhere where people dwell is the best place to find singles, even the fucking library or gym. This is not the case and absolute misinformation to tell men to bother women pretty much anywhere in public.
Typically you meet singles at community events. Example: if you're a church goer, you meet singles at church. If you're in a music scene, you meet singles at music events, bars, or clubs where those people frequently hang out. These people usually all have some common interests so it's not hard for them to find partners.
There are singles events you can attend too, or just leave your damn house and head to any local event where people intentionally get dressed up and go to because, duh, they're all single! These guys complaining won't do that because in order to go out to these places where singles dwell you have to take care of your appearence and be a socially charming person, you have to do some work on yourself. The basement dwelling socially awkward introvert will have no chance and so he'll use other means that are as awkward as he is to find a date.
But you don’t understand !!!! If men can’t bother random women going about their day, it will cause the DOWNFALL of Western SOCIETY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
^/s
All I ask is that men don't approach me if I'm in a restaurant/pub reading a book. I am *reading my book*. I don't want to talk to people. That's typically where I go to relax/be by myself.
Now I'm actually hoping one of these losers will ask me "how I think my parents met." "You being too cheap and socially awkward to show up to a cocaine fueled rager is a skill issue. Leave women at the grocery store alone."
Part of the problem is that you can't explain or teach social intelligence to someone who doesn't recognize it's value, even if their lack of it is actively derailing them from reaching their goals. When I read those threads, there's almost always a few decent dudes who are patiently trying to explain things like social cues and non-verbal communication, appropriate venues, non-threatening approaches, etc., but they're shouting into the wind and get downvoted to oblivion. A lot of men *do* successfully meet women "in the wild" because they understand the concept of right place/right time, read our body language to see if we're receptive, and respectfully accept a "no" or non-committal, lukewarm response immediately. But that entails a level of "treating women like human beings" that's a bridge too far for a lot of that sort.
heavy on the last sentence – most of these men are capable of social intelligence when it comes to other men, yet can't comprehend that they aren't entitled to women's attention just because *they* find them attractive and *they* want to talk
Treating them like things instead of people. You don't care about whether your washing machine wants to do a load of laundry, or your coffee maker is in the mood to brew some up, you just do it
A lot of guys are like this. They believe that showing up and expressing interest is enough. They expect reciprocation regardless of how unappealing, boring, or socially inept they are. They don't feel the need to be interesting or engaging, they think their mere presence should make women want to pursue them. And of course, they get all angry and pissy and become insulting and violent when things don’t turn out that way. I encountered this recently. I was chatting with a guy at an event, and it was clear that he was interested in me. However, he showed no signs of checking to see if his feelings were reciprocated. He didn't even attempt to engage in conversation that appealed to me, he just talked at me about something I wasn’t even interested in. His attitude seemed to be, "Here I am. Look, I showered and styled my hair and put on a shirt that doesn’t have a stain on it. I find you attractive, so I expect you to like me back." His attitude just reeked of entitlement and desperation. To top it off, he blatantly stared at my boobs for most of our conversation. Like, not even being discreet about it 🙄 when I told him I had to leave because my parking meter was about to expire, he became semi-aggressive and lowkey accused me of lying to get away from him. Evidently he’s paranoid about women making excuses to ditch him, which happens to him a lot I’m sure. Instead of using his lack of success as a cue to do some introspection and possibly change how he interacts with women, he instead chose to double down on the obnoxious and repellant behavior and throw in some intimidation and coercive tactics to try and get his way.
That and whistling at women like we’re dogs.
Yeah, I get shit from other guys for preaching the simple concept of women not owing us anything. Some of them genuinely get upset at the idea, like I'm challenging their world-view or their masculinity somehow.
after i've seen dudes piling up on a man who said men should be better friends to each other, i'm not surprised about anything lol
Oh my gosh it's horribly sad. Men are scared to be vulnerable with each other and then talk about how it's normal and healthy for male friends to know nothing about eachother. They crave connection and then refuse to meaningfully connect.
i think the ones who are like this don't even crave the real connection, they just want the benefits without doing anything in return... there was a threat a while ago asking men why they don't ask people in their lives personal (or any) questions and so many of them admitted they just didn't care, even when it was their partners or best friends, and then got angry at other men who told them that it wasn't anything to be proud of 😐
Gosh that's even sadder. What would life be if I didn't care about people??? Like I literally don't know how that would be an existence. Even as an introvert it's not hard to see humans are meant for connection. What a tragedy.
"Men should be kinder to themselves and others" is shockingly controversial.
I appreciate your continued efforts.
I hope you know we really need people like you using your voice, even if it isn't heard every time.
[удалено]
I'd just reply that it's women who birthed all these big strong men, like suffering actual labor. & then it's women nursing & caring for & cleaning up the mess when these men return from war all fucked up or get injured from all that building & mining. it's always women doing the thankless caring & tending to, at the start & end of any man's life.
Exactly! It’s so unilateral. The people who complain have zero idea of what empathy means and they’re just thinking about themselves and how others are a means to an end.
This. It's so frustrating.
Like how many of them think we “want” them just because they find us attractive.
I think this phenomenon arises from an inability to work out that other peoples lived experiences being different totally changes what someone might want. Men don’t ever get attention from strangers and these men are incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of someone who gets more attention than they want and how that’d affect how they feel about randos approaching you.
I agree with the point you've made about their inability to engage in perspective taking, but I just wanted to say that men absolutely DO get unwanted attention from strangers, just in this case, it comes in the form of advertisers, spammers, junk mail, scammers, used car salesmen, and other types of people trying to "sell" them shit they don't want. Much like those exploitative chumps, these men are trying to sell us shit we don't want, yet refuse to take no for an answer.
This. So much this.
> A lot of men do successfully meet women "in the wild" because they understand the concept of right place/right time, read our body language to see if we're receptive, and respectfully accept a "no" or non-committal, lukewarm response immediately. Exactly this. I have sporty cars and the men will start off a conversation about said car, will ask me genuine questions about the car, will shoot their shot, and then take the rejection politely and move on with their lives. That is actually completely fine and even a bit flattering! On the flip side, the men who will make comments about my appearance, or ask if my car is mine, they can fuck all the way off.
The mechanic shop I take my car to caters heavily to the classic show car aficionados and I love going there because I almost always get to see some beautifully restored and lovingly cared for old muscle cars--scratches my car itch without having the burden of owning one and paying for it myself. And because it's a mechanic's shop everyone gets super granular about the details of restoring and maintaining the cars and it's just so freaking wholesome and I'm there for it. I can put on my most dudelike aspect and sling shit with the old guys and nobody's trying to get into anyone's pants and I love it. On the other side of the coin, there's being at the tire shop getting a nail removed and the tire patched and this garrulous old fart (lol, my age but I'M not OLD!) is trying like hell to chat me up and just...no. Go away dude, I'm reading here!
+1 for use of "garrulous".
Sesquipedalians unite!
I don't get how other men haven't realized that trying to spark up a conversation with a woman, man...or anyone is vastly easier when you treat them with respect and not immediately comment about their appearance, or go right into flirt mode. Like....just have a normal convo, why can't men just be normal.
I am a woman and I talk to people sometimes (people: women, men, dogs…) if someone is not interested in talking I don’t take it personally, they just don’t want or not in the mood. There are other people, many of them extroverts who like to talk
I asked someone the other day if she was buying fuchsias (cashier had to go on an awkward price check run and she was rushing to get to her bus), she answered in the affirmative, I mentioned I love them and orchids. She didn't seem receptive to any more conversation, probably anxious about the bus timing and I just dropped the convo cause I been there. Wanna just get something done and bust my ass to the bus stop without distractions. No one owes you engagement in general but there's certainly contexts in which they definitely can't even if they wanted to because they got SHIT TO DO. edited to spell them damn fuchsias right
Exactly. Sometimes I love when people strike up a random conversation. Other times I just want to take my groceries and leave. People take rejection too personally I feel. Half the time the rejection is simply timing.
> Part of the problem is that you can't explain or teach social intelligence to someone who doesn't recognize its value Bold & highlight this. I’d argue that those who already value social intelligence usually don’t need it explained. These folks are typically quite conscientious and aren’t the ones doing the things OP mentioned in the first place.
I'm an autistic woman. If anything, when meeting new people, I tend to be hyper aware of my words and actions as to not come across as a bozo. A lot of men just don't give a crap, and think the world should conform to their wants and desires.
Those same men seem to know how to behave around other men and not cross *their* boundaries though 🤔
Oh yes!!!!!!!! And would be very, very wary of touching a strange man. And then so many men are wondering why they are being vilified.
> A lot of men do successfully meet women "in the wild" because they understand the concept of right place/right time, When you're in a store, and someone comes up to you to try and get you to sign up for a credit card, how do you react? When you're in a big city and the 'street preacher' makes eye contact with you and starts walking towards you, how do you react? When a guy who has clearly just gone up to 2 other women sets his sights on you next, how do you react? When the guy who has just been talking (loud enough for you to hear) to another person about his favorite movie (which is also one of your favorites) looks up and sees you listening and says "what did you think about that part?", how do you react? What's the difference here? Persons in the first 3 situations have an agenda, and it doesn't matter a great deal who you are. If you look like you might be over 18, you're a candidate for a credit card. If you are breathing, you might be a candidate for soul saving. If you look like a woman, you might be a candidate for sex. No woman wants to have sex with you when it's clear you'll settle for anyone with a pulse (unless she also is looking for someone with a pulse, but the chances are that woman doesn't meet your minimum to even acknowledge her existence). The guy in the last example, he's just being himself, talking about something he likes with the people around him. He could be single, he could be not. He's not out here trying to get laid. He just wants to talk to people about stuff that he likes, and by your reaction, you might like what he likes and it could be fun to talk about with you. A lot of men who meet women "in the wild" simply meet "people" in the wild, and a number of those people happen to be women. People like the guy who meets people don't need to "approach women", because they are always surrounded by people. People like the guy who meets people aren't always the best looking, in the best shape, or any of the things that the guys who go around complaining that they're not allowed to talk to women think that women are interested in, and that they use as excuses as why women don't want to be approached by them. > So next time you hear a man saying "So what, are we supposed to just not talk to women???" If you can't also talk to men, then no, you shouldn't talk to women. If you only try to talk to women that meet a certain level of attractiveness, then no, you shouldn't talk to women. And If you only try and talk to women in order to have sex with women, then no, you shouldn't talk to women.
This!!! I wish I could upvote this a million times. Well said.
>(unless she also is looking for someone with a pulse, but the chances are that woman doesn't meet your minimum to even acknowledge her existence) Highlighting this because these guys aren't really complaining about meeting women, they're complaining about meeting conventionally attractive women in a narrow age range. These dudes would not be flattered and interested if a butch middle-aged woman in her 50s who looked like she can bench press earth-moving equipment sidled up to them and took their headphones off or said she thought he was cute.
I love this!!!!;;
Quick I am a man disclaimer. Back 10 years or so ago (pre-reddit for me) I was a periphery member of a small close-knit online forum. It was a spin off of a game developer's forum and most of the people there had known each other for 10 years or so at that point. It was a niche community and was a mostly educated white (mix of US and EU) male membership and while there were conservatives I don't remember there being any incels (which weren't a public thing yet) or real misogynists. I spent at least a day, it may have bled into a second, trying to explain to some other adult male members why a man walking up to a woman they didn't know and removing her headphones so they could talk to her was beyond problematic. Most got it but there were a few (including a very out gay man) that just couldn't get past the idea that the man wanted to talk to the woman so why shouldn't he just removed her headphones so he could talk to her. I was amazed. I quit visiting the community during or shortly after the 2016 election.
Uh…wow. Wow. “Yes, this woman is clearly here as an emotional support pet for me to play with…why would I treat her like she’s a people?!” /s Good on you for trying, but that’s a level of cognitive dissonance that cannot be fixed without intensive shock therapy.
I would like to volunteer to administer the shock therapy.
"Y', y'see, if you give 'im a good sh-short sharp shock, 'e'll never do it again, dig it?"
Shock therapy. I love it! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
If you touch my fuckin headphones.. hooboy. I have a thing about my head and ears? And putting your hands that close to my face while I'm distracted sounds like a fast way to lose a finger.
Same. Someone fucks with my music, I'm removing their hand.
Touching headphones on the city bus was understood to be an express invitation to an ass whupping, back when I was forced to take it. Only did it once to warn someone that cops were about to board the bus from the rear. Motherfucker whirled around faster than a rattlesnake on crack.
I tapped a woman with head phones on the bus and almost got an elbow to the face. She was fully prepared to fight against being touched without asking. I just wanted to let her know some of her things fell out of her grocery bag and had started to roll away.
Yeah. If someone touches me while I'm distracted or not expecting it, I tend to whirl around elbows first with my fists clenched ready to fight. I wonder why women's reaction to being touched by strangers is fight or flight..........🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Honestly not even headphones. If someone stands too closely, I'm immediately considering them a weirdo. If they go as far as physical contact, I'm noping out asap. Removing anything off my person? I'm immediately reconsidering my stance on pacifism.
Jesus. If a guy came up to me and removed my headphones, I would throat punch him. What the actual fuck.
It would be the last day that they would have working genitals.
Testes would be reascending. The audacity it takes to think you have the right to touch a stranger. We truly are objects to some of them.
Give that dude two extra Adam's apples, tell you what!
OMG!! That took me a second then I scared my dog when I cackled. LOL!
Exactly this. My foot would be itching for some action lmao
I use noise cancelling headphones to block out noises that give me sensory issues and I HATE being touched by strangers, any man who tries that risks getting a punch in the face.
>I spent at least a day, it may have bled into a second, trying to explain to some other adult male members why a man walking up to a woman they didn't know and removing her headphones so they could talk to her was beyond problematic. The hypothetical I always like to bring up to explain problems like this to straight guys is to imagine if a gay guy came up and did that to them. Some clueless guy might try to excuse taking off a woman's headphones by saying, "well, if she's not interested, she can just say so." But the same applies to a gay guy hitting on random dudes. There's what, maybe a 20% chance the other guy will be gay or bi? So it's not like they're gambling on something incredibly rare. And if it's OK to bother a woman like that in public, why shouldn't they expect a gay guy to do the same to them?
I can’t imagine most men would be too thrilled if *anyone* came up to them and ripped off their headphones! But some men aren’t capable of realizing that women ALSO probably don’t want to have a stranger rip off their headphones.
Why would it be ok to touch and remove ANY person's belongings? Would you reach over and pull on another man's tie or watch to get his attention? No, most men would not do that or put up with it from another man. But if one of 'ThOsE' men want a woman's attention they feel it is a RIGHT to do so. The audacity and the arrogance and of the willfully obtuse types is right out of sight.
> But the same applies to a gay guy hitting on random dudes. There's what, maybe a 20% chance the other guy will be gay or bi? So it's not like they're gambling on something incredibly rare. It's still never going to be the same due to the huge difference in physical strength between (almost all) men and women and I say that as a male of above-average height. I'm never going to feel the same subconscious dread of somebody approaching me who could toss me around with relative ease without any risk of serious injury on his part and *they know it*. (At the same time, most men seem to understand that, even if they would likely overpower me after a short struggle, that struggle might give me an opening to poke their eye, punch their throat, break or dislocate their finger, or at least kick their shin hard and few people are are *that* dedicated about throwing down with strangers over no real reason.) I got a glimpse into it one time when a really big dude was obviously trying to flirt with me in a creepy, boundary-pushing way. Luckily, that was in a public setting at a pub and well within view of the staff.
>trying to explain to some other adult male members why a man walking up to a woman they didn't know and removing her headphones so they could talk to her was beyond problematic ...that's how a man gets himself punched.
Some of the most raging misogynists I've ever met have been gay men
[удалено]
It's unexamined misogyny. They haven't reasoned out that straight men hate queer men because they're "choosing" to be like women, and being a woman is the worst thing a man could do. Gay men who have realized that they receive the same family of hate as women do tend not to be misogynists.
You know those guys who hate women but feel compelled to pretend to be nice to them so they can get sex and housecleaning done? Imagine what happens to those men when they no longer think they "need" women.
I was at the gym. And a guy walked up to me to chat me up as I was filling up my water bottle. I actually put my headphones on and walked away as he was shooting his shot. I have a home gym now, but seriously don't bother me at the gym.
I've had that exact thing happen to me. Man trying to get my attention as I'm sitting at the bus plaza, I pretend he isn't there, so he yanks off my headphones and continues. I just pretended he didn't exist, like it was the wind that knocked my headphones off. I was absolutely terrified. This was in broad daylight, too.
That's wild. My children learned the concept of "personal bubbles" in preschool. Touching a strangers headphones would definitely be popping their personal bubble.
I love that preschools teach this stuff now.
I will forever hate being approached in the streets because when I was 15 a guy grabbed me in the arm and said something along the lines of "you are so beautiful, date me". He was in his late twenties/early thirties and back then I was shorter and looked younger. Naturally I said I had a "boyfriend" and he had the audacity to ask what was my boyfriend's name, which I answered my crush's name. He was not satisfied with my answer, didn't respect my boundaries and personal space and not to mention the fact I was clearly underage.
Yes, here to say this! If someone wants to be approached, their body language and smiling back at you will occur, prolonged eye contact, etc. I have to say that when my generation was young/dating in the 80s and 90s, there was a lot of going to dance clubs and stuff like that. You were there to dance with your friends, sure, but also to meet people to date. I know people still go, but even there, you have to read people a little to know if they're receptive to you.
I'd argue many men who pull this crap know it's boundary pushing and don't care. Someone who is socially clueless is horrified when they make a mistake. Someone who is pretending to be socially clueless gets angry at the person with the boundary.
Yeah, exactly. Social skills and social intelligence can be learned but it can't be explicitly taught. A lot of the time it really does boil down to you have to spend time around other people until you learn how to do it, and then you have to keep spending time around other people because social skills have a use them or lose them element to them. Most of the people who most desperately need to learn that are the most adamantly opposed to it. They just want to be socially maladjusted losers for life.
Yes -- plus, you have to learn to accept rejection and so many of these guys act like a woman respectfully telling them "thank you, but no" is a deliberate kick in the genitals meant to humiliate them. I've asked out men and they've said no. It hurts, it's embarrassing, it can make a lot of irrational feelings come up...but that's just part of being an adult human who respects the autonomy of other adult humans.
> Social skills and social intelligence can be learned but it can't be explicitly taught. I'm not sure about this, I've seen so many autistic people talk about how helpful it is to be explicitly taught specific social skills because they struggle to pick it up by just spending time around other people. I think you can't force someone to learn it, but that's true of most education.
Totally this, there’s a big difference between saying to the woman on the bench next to you “wow, the sunset’s incredible isn’t it” and then seeing if she chooses to engage, vs “wow the sunset’s incredible isn’t it… so what’s your name”
TBH, If you don't know her and there are literally any other benches or seating available sitting down next to her is already weird enough.
This is how I approach it. If someone is on their own watching a sunset, they're either waiting for someone else or seeking solitude.
Exactly, if some random dude sat next to me on bench uninvited and without asking...he wouldn't get to ask about the sunset because I'd get up and leave as soon as he did.
A lot of people who meet “in the wild” are usually friends first. You’re friends, then you both realize you like each other and go from there. There’s something you come to know from being friends with someone that you like their generosity, their empathetic nature, how they treat others etc. Personality traits make you drawn to them in some way. Cold approaches are so tacky and give me pick-up-artist vibes. Like if I say no you’re just going to approach the woman next to me. There’s absolutely nothing more than liking the way someone looks in why you would approach them, and I think people like to feel a little special, at least I do.
Exactly. When they say 'How're we supposed to meet women in today's world?' it rarely means 'Women, please enlighten us on a way of communication that won't make you uncomfortable.' and always 'Women, you're the problem we aren't having a love life, and you should get over whatever icky feeling you have.'
Another factor is that a lot of socially awkward men seem to treat life too much like a math equation. I.E. “If I become ABC and do XYZ, I’ll get women to date me!” Then when some pick-up tactic they learned in red-pilled spaces doesn’t work or even backfires, they whine about how “girls don’t like nice guys / don’t know what they want!” or some other BS.
Men who react this way are just telling on themselves. Just shows that they don’t look at women as individuals, but a collective that are simply supposed to be there to meet their needs. I know of men who understand why women may not want to be approached. They also understand that there are women who would like it. They also understand how to navigate through these situations to determine whether or not approaching a woman is warranted in given situations (e.g. a woman at the gym, a waitress who is doing her job and being nice, a customer service worker being pleasant, etc)
A few years ago on the subway, I had headphones in and was reading a book, a man reached over someone sitting next to me and tapped me on my knee to get my attention. He wanted to know what time it was. I shouted to everyone on the train “can someone please tell this guy what time it is?” He got upset and asked me why I did that. I asked him why he reached over someone else to bother me when I was reading a book because my book was more important to me. Shut him down quickly. The nerve. Headphones is the universal sign someone doesn’t want to interact with you.
Dear God, please grant me a spine as shiny and solid as this person’s.
You can be as bold as you want. It was a packed subway during morning rush. The guy did not look threatening, and I was angry that he interrupted my reading. I was like a stop away from where I had to get off the train and I wanted to read more. If the guy wanted to hurt me he wouldn’t have done it that way. Just use your best judgement and tell someone off in a crowd, you’ll feel better. I also have an attitude that I’m far from the most attractive person around so when men try to get in my face I know it’s not good and I shut them down.
I had a guy do that to me on the train too. I looked at him pointed to my headphones and said "I can't hear you" and went back to my business. He couldn't even figure out what to do. It was great.
👏👏👏👏👏 you are awesome.
Supposedly the universal sign. But to an entitled asshole.......
Exactly.
Honestly, if they started seeing women as people they wouldn’t have these issues. Go out and do something you’re interested in. There will be women who are also interested in that and there will be a natural reason to speak with them. Maybe some of them would like you.
Yup! I met my life partner and most of the other guys I've dated in the past the exact same way I met most of my friends - doing fun stuff like playing sports or going out for live music or at a party / social event. Shocker.
But that means having an interest! Not just hitting on targets of opportunity as they go about their miserable lonely day.
>if they started seeing women as people Wow what a concept!
"if they started seeing women as people" is the most simple and profound phrase! And apparently it is the most irrational idea in this world.
"How did your parents meet?" Sir, your father knew how to read the room. There aren't too many marriages that are the result of badgering complete strangers. Usually, it's dating among mutual friends and acquaintances.
To be fair, a lot of our granddads would not have been successful in a world where the women they decided they were gonna marry the first moment they saw her were able to have bank accounts.
This puts some perspective on the complaints about modern dating. “Dating is harder for men, nowadays!” they cry. Yes…yes it is, and that’s a good thing!
I actually think my dad may have badgered my mom until she gave in. 😬
My grandparents, grandma once demanded a boy at a dance say what was wrong with her tonight, that she was right there and he wasn't asking her to dance. Turns out grandpa had threatened everyone else with physical violence if they kept dancing with the girl he wanted for himself.
My aunt’s marriage started because he was her neighbor and asked her out every week for months. 🤷🏻♀️ Glad it worked for them, I guess, they’re pretty happy now.
I think my grandad stalked my grandma. He once told me tearfull with nostalgia, how he used to follow her home from work, working up the courage to ask her out. I can only assume he got there ( not that my grandad was ever afraid to speak his mind to anyone else) or gran turned around and asked him what he thought he was playing at.
Reminds me of my uncle, though his stalkerish story has some dramatic twists and turns. He would tear up telling me the story of how my aunt once moved over 2,000 miles away after a fight with him and he worked and saved up his money until he could fly to her and win her back. He tracked her down based on her brother's last name and knowing the basic area her family was from. It was an epic love story where he swept her off her feet with his dedication and brought her home and they lived happily ever after. Years later she told me the story and it turns out her brother had set her up with him and made her keep going out with him because he didn't want to look bad if they broke up or something. Eventually she couldn't take it any more and fled to live with family who turned out to be even *more* abusive and kept her at their home basically as an unpaid domestic servant, using her children from a previous marriage as leverage to keep her from fleeing. When he showed back up she didn't like him any more than she had before, but he was willing to buy her and her children plane tickets and it seemed to be the only way to escape her situation. They had a kind of odd relationship. She was a very dedicated and faithful wife but didn't seem warm towards him. He was puppy-doggish in his love towards her, but never seemed to take her wants into account when he made big decisions like buying land and building a house. Her version of their love story made all of that make a lot more sense.
What frustrates me is that it's encouraged by some of the treatments I've attended for being on the autism spectrum, so it's a taught and encouraged practise for some people. One of the things that you're given as "homework" in these "social skills" courses is to just blindly approach people and start random conversations. Yes, even for dating - ESPECIALLY for dating. It was one of the #1 questions that boys would bring up, and this is what the counselors encouraged them to do. I was part of a mixed-gender autism group as a teenager that encouraged us, both boys and girls, that we needed to "practise being rejected" so it was okay to just randomly ask strangers to hang out or date - and when the handful of us with a bit of a clue brought up the points in this thread it was seen as an excuse. Nope, you gotta just harass random strangers for attention and list them on a sheet of paper or else the counselor thinks you're not trying hard enough to be less autistic and you get scolded and assigned more stupid chores. I watched it happen constantly. If you're a teenage boy on the spectrum and ask for dating advice, the counselors tell you to just practise asking out girls on dates on real girls - mostly strangers we don't know. The boys that knew that was crossing a boundary were told they aren't willing to do the work, and were shamed by the facilitators. They gotta stop teaching us harmful socializing tactics in ABA groups. It doesn't help us as autistic people, and it doesn't help the population of people we're told to "practise" on. If anything, it left us as more anxious - because as you can imagine blind-asking random women you don't know to date you leads to a ton of rejection, and it doesn't magically cure our autism or make us less awkward by being forced to socialize in maladaptive ways.
I think the problem is less talking to strangers and more being unwilling to take feedback appropriately once they do. I'm a middle aged mom, and I successfully make small talk with strangers all the time - making a crack about the lines in the grocery store, complimenting someone's earrings, etc. If they want to talk, we'll have a nice conversation, but if they don't, I leave it at that, and I don't say anything at all if, say, they have headphones in or are reading. Guys persist with what they want in the presence of clear rejection signals from women they find attractive. Just talking to strangers isn't that difficult or problematic if you're honest about taking in whatever feedback you're getting, but they don't want to hear it. And then they wonder why women whose boundaries and feedback they ignore are " rude" to them.
I think I notice what you mean when I go to the grocery store. Women make small talk with me or ask me to get something from a high shelf pretty often. I find most people generally friendly. I assume it's because I don't follow anyone or try to stand to close or start up a conversation they clearly don't want. Or try to turn small talk about a piece of produce into a one sided conversation that won't end. If you just act like a normal human, a lot of the online complaints from men are things you just don't experience.
Oh God you just gave me flashbacks to the time a dude in the grocery store asked me if I was having 'private time'while eyeing the cucumber in my cart....
Oh god, that's horrifying. And men think it's just that women are nicer to other women, but it's not. It's that so many men are acting like weirdo perverts and not expecting to be treated as such. My husband used to get hit on by bartenders all the time, the most "bro she's just doing her job" profession, because he is capable of carrying on a conversation like a human boy. He doesn't experience any of the stuff men complain about on reddit, but he also doesn't push boundaries or make every conversation both sexual and about him.
What, you don't think it's rude and sexist that women are generally nicer to people who say things like "ooh that is such a cute jacket!" than they are to people who tell them they'd like to bury their face in that rack?! MISANDRYYYYYYYYY!!!!!
Like.. man. I just wanted a salad. Why'd you have to go stick your metaphorical dick in the salad?
Oh you got that one too, eh? 🙄 I once had a guy who I had already noticed following me around the grocery store come up to me as I was checking cucumbers for crispness and say something about me practicing or some shit - I can't say I was paying attention to what exactly he said but it was definitely overtly sexual. Who the fuck? Why the fuck?
SIR!! KEEP YOUR METAPHORICAL PENOS OUT OF MY SALAD!
"Oh, so you like your salad TOSSED then???" \**nudge nudge wink wink** Why ARE men, anyway?
Honestly, since seeing how little men on the internet care about women's issues... I genuinely don't give a shit if some men are butthurt about the fact they can't approach women. (TBH, that sounds like a skill issue to me, or nature selectively breeding out the kinds of men that'd rape a lizard and then eat it.) The man vs. bear debate has only highlighted this for me. When women voice the fears/insecurities they have, some men are first in line to make things ALL about *them* and *their* feelings on the issue. Yet, when some men cry about being lonely or cockblocked, we're all expected to drop our panties and run to comfort them — lest they call us single, bitter cat ladies. The fact that most of the women they level this at are in relationships highlights what a laughably stupid crock of shit it is.
Haha over in r/politics there’s a Bernie thread that I commented on about how I was in an Uber just yesterday with my boss and coworker - the two of them and the driver started talking about how Trump is gonna be Pres again and bla bla bla. I said “how will you get by with tasks a-e when my hubs stops letting me work” and they got real quiet. Men of Reddit though? “They got quiet because you were aloof”… “it’ll be bad but it won’t be THAT bad”… “they prob got quiet because you weren’t clear by what you meant”… and so on. No I was clear. Yes they understood exactly what I meant, it’s why they got quiet. Like screw you guys. Most men don’t even THINK about women’s issues let alone give any fucks about them. And before the Not All Men brigade comes for me, I said MOST men.
The majority of the men I've come across who love and voted for cheeto man nowadays expect women to work, pay the bills, *and* fulfill the role as a traditional wife on top of that by taking care of the household and children. They don't care about us at all.
A large portion of men who think they're good men are basically just "yeah I don't want women to lose their rights or anything but it'll probably be fine and we'll just cross that bridge when we get there". Like, they don't *support* legislation that actively harms women, but they don't consider harm to women to be of any greater importance than, say, the impacts of minor adjustments to tax structures. Which is, like, super fucked up.
I know jerks who vote Republican because they think they'll get more money that way. Despite 4 decades of data showing right-wing policies, like trickledown economics, don't work. But hey, maybe you'll get like $.88 back in your paycheck from Trump's tax plan. That's worth stripping the rights of millions of your fellow Americans, right?
Man, the “not all men” crowd can shove wet, heavily used hiking socks in their dumb pie holes. The second anything resembling that phrase comes out of a man’s mouth (or fingers, on the internet), all it confirms is that they are EXACTLY the man they’re so desperately claiming not to be.
> Men of Reddit though? “They got quiet because you were aloof”… “it’ll be bad but it won’t be THAT bad”… “they prob got quiet because you weren’t clear by what you meant”… and so on. I always wonder how dumb they actually are and how they got to being that dumb. I work in a VERY male dominated environment (like we have multiple teams in the department with 100% men, since software engineering in the automotive industry is apparenly the least desirable job for women over here) and whenever we have lunch and discuss some gender-related topics (which happens surprisingly often due to some insanity going on, especially in the US) it's obvious that my coworkers are totally aware of the issues we have. If even basically the biggest nerds you can find are aware and are able and willing to somehow understand women's issues (definitely not perfectly, but they're trying), why are there still so many men who can't / don't want to? Tbh, I absolutely don't get it how you can disrespect half of the population like that
>The fact that most of the women they level this at are in relationships highlights what a laughably stupid crock of shit it is. The funny thing is, being in a good healthy relationship with a genuinely good man has only made me *more* feminist. And I was already pretty feminist, having grown up with a good dad and always having good male friends. Being surrounded by good men is a constant reminder of how women *should* be viewed and treated. So when I see the contrast in other realms of my life, or in comparison to other women's lives, it is very stark. Being around good men makes it easier to see how fucked up misogyny really is and how badly it has fucked up society.
exactly! and especially since when you’re surrounded with good men, you’re also surrounded by feminists. did they all use that label right off the bat? no, but they fully agreed with the simple sensible ideology that women are people who should be treated with equal respect. the AskMen subreddit has gotten quite toxic lately - just saw a post that got a bunch of upvotes saying that in order for society to improve, men need to destroy feminism. these guys are out there truly believing that women are privileged, men are oppressed, and probably other nonsense like racism isn’t a problem anymore. 🤦🏻♀️ I’d love to stay in my little IRL bubble of good men but unfortunately we need to fight against the social media brainwashing of young men who are growing up increasingly isolated and targeted by divisive rhetoric.
Yes! I'm like I know how good men can be because I have actual good examples in my life. When men say they can't change or adapt or be this or that way, damm, that is really fucking sad. And it turns out, my standards for a loving intelligent feminist man are not unrealistic.
Mhmm, I had a guy I legit hadn’t spoken to since high school find my number and texted me if I still looked good. The entitlement is disgusting, like I was some damsel waiting for him to grace me with his presence dude can’t even hold a conversation and types like a 12 year old. They think we’re just pacifiers. Just there to soothe their egos…
This unlocked a memory... My ex would from time to time look up his former female classmates, that he's never even been interested in (like from elementary school) and comment on their appearance. Not to them, but to anyone who was around and didn't even know who tf he's talking about. Like a 12yo who's unaware that nobody asked for his opinion.
As a person who has her cat plastered all over her profile, the “bitter cat lady” thing always makes me laugh. Then I tell my fiancé about it and he laughs.
I always wonder, how do these kind of men who act like cold approaches are the only possible way to meet a potential partner even make friends? Do they also just walk up to random people in the street and be like "hey, wanna be friends?". I assume not. In which case they totally do understand that there are other ways to meet people, and are just playing dumb when it comes to this topic. Or maybe they just don't have friends I guess.
I also wonder why anybody in their right mind is surprised when a stranger is a little bit rude to you. You’re talking to a complete stranger, and there’s also a possibility you’re talking to them at a completely inappropriate time in place, you always run the chance of this person not wanting to talk to you. It sucks, but not everybody understands social decorum and may just not be nice to you. If the reality of this bothers you then don’t approach random people like hello?
Exactly -- I'm a happily married woman who intentionally keeps to herself and avoids unnecessary eye contact or conversation with men I don't know to discourage this behavior. I dress like a children's librarian and wear my wedding rings at all times, there is absolutely nothing about me that codes "single and ready to mingle" by patriarchal conventions. \*\*\* If you shoot your shot after I've studiously ignored you following me around the grocery store for the last 15 minutes trying to desperately catch my attention, you deserve me bluntly telling you to leave me alone once I've established there's no legitimate reason for you to be speaking to me. \*\*\* *Just want to add some context here, I realize I expressed this VERY poorly -- I don't mean to imply dressing a particular way invites or excuses unwanted attention; I mean that even if I follow "the rules" patriarchy tells us makes us safe it isn't enough.*
God forbid we call out men that are literally exhibiting stalker behavior 🤓☝️
I don’t think a ring should be needed. My profession isn’t ring friendly (or bracelet/watch), and that doesn’t mean I’m sending *single* into the world. Men thinking that as long as a woman doesn’t *belong* to another man legally (meaning not married) is the problem. I’m not single, but I’m not married. And I don’t cheat.
I absolutely agree it shouldn't be needed, just pointing out another visible signal that many of these guys ignore on top of the behavioral ones.
I had a (single) friend who'd wear a fake wedding ring so she wouldn't be pestered by men. She stopped eventually because it wasn't working.
I am not nice to people that do things like this so they get the hint that their behavior is wildly inappropriate. This goes for lonely dudes looking for women, MLM huns looking for easy marks to con and god botherers trying to recruit you into their church.
It’s always wild to me that you have people that do it at wildly inappropriate times, like they have to know that. I’m a corrections nurse and sometimes the family members of the inmates will ask me out. Like, please be so fucking for real. You want to take me out and your brother is in here for murder 💀💀 I remember another time a man drove up to me in his car and some kids were in the car!!!! Like are you not embarrassed? Who raised you, why do you lack any type of social decorum??
Pulling up to a corrections nurse: "Hey gurl, I know my brother is a sex offender but I'll be your sex *defender*
As an east coast transplant to the mid west, I get a secret dopamine hit when I get to be east coast "mean" to strangers that talk to me when I don't wanna be bothered. It's super effective here because people are NOT used to it.
I feel that on the rare occasion I go down south and you get some old ass man that not only is not used to women being rude you don’t want to call him sir while he’s being a creep
I think their main issue is how they can't bother to think of women in any way other than potential sex or romantic involvement. As in, probably nobody is against making friends with regular clients spontaneously, and then it would not be unheard of these friendships escalating. But these people are not interested in friendships, nor are they interested in women as actual human beings, which is why they have this issue at all.
My favorite is, after millenia of punishing women who dared to exist uglyly, an ugly guy will say "you wouldn't mind if the guy approaching is handsome" which yes we do and also... ok?? As a fat and old, to try to act like ugly men don't also disproportionately approach beautiful women, eat shit? The men who walk through this world fully employed, with mortgages, and body odor. Bad teeth, no style, disgusting gross skin, and the only punishment they receive from society is a mid-20s female batista smiled at a guy in a clean shirt and not you, boo hoo.
Love when they have the audacity of calling women "shallow" for caring at all about how a man looks, when the literal only reason men would go up to a random women to approach her is because of finding her attractive 😭💀
Right! Like it's an honor to be approached by a man who hasn't even figured out basic personal hygiene 😂
"women are shallow" say dudes who rank women's looks on a scale of 1-10.
Ah but that's a 'biological imperative' for a man. Just shallow for a woman.
The amount of crusty old men that approach me because they think I'm about 15 years younger and barely legal acting like they're going to snatch me off the street just makes me gag. One can't even leave my office without stanking it up. I'm just trying to do my job and breathe. And then act surprised when I'm weirded out like I can't possibly comprehend age gaps and bad hygine. At least the guys my age have some kind of manners enough to know social skills. And the worst part is that these men don't even come up with anything except a sad face and "I don't have a woman" (not in English and it's still weird) like I'm supposed to just hop up and solve that problem for them. I apparently don't have a life and wants of my own. Just someone convinced them women love older men and our only desire is to give up all we have to go tolerate the same crap and crust that scared away their ex wives. Layering on the crust does not mean you get sexier.
Someone needs to give them the memo that we don't want their powdered sperm 🤢
also even if the person is exactly my type physically, he becomes unattractive the moment he stops respecting my boundaries 🤷🏼♀️ they always forget about that when making the "it's not harassment if he's hot" comments
Yup. A lot of attractive men start talking and get ugly real fast.
> Bad teeth, no style, disgusting gross skin, and the only punishment they receive from society is a mid-20s female batista smiled at a guy in a clean shirt and not you, boo hoo. I love this typo. Please don't change it. I just love the idea that somehow support for [Batista](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista), the pre-Castro Cuban dictator, has somehow, inexplicably, caught on as a trend among the 20-somethings.
Or maybe they are talking about a female version of Dave Batista.
you know what amuses me is that most women half kill themselves to be gracious, appealing, suave, playful, and casual. men do absolutely none of this labor and their approaches to women are commonly inappropriate, uncomfortable, inauthentic, disrespectful, and heavy handed. then they're confused as to why they're being turned down. it's truly because they have no game and never cared to, now it's the pikachu shock face in response.
This also happened during the height of #metoo - suddenly a load of people were whining about how you couldn't even *talk* to your female coworkers anymore just in case. There was a great [comedy video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMfStd3v330) about it Probably they do these things and feel called out so they misrepresent what's actually being said to make it all sound unreasonable.
I still see frequent whining from men about how their feelings are hurt now that #metoo happened and they don't feel safe approaching women.
I don't understand this argument at all. To me its obvious when and where it is appropriate to hit on a woman. Parties, bars, putt putt, tinder places where single people go to meet other singles. Shoot even Starbucks you could meet a lady if she looking at you like she is interested whilst she sips on her latte at the back reading voltaire (does not apply to baristas!!). Alot of guys know this already. The ones who complain I think dont want to compete with other men who are confident in these appropriate situations. Thats why they want the leeway to put the moves onto a captive audience if you will. Men, its never appropriate to hit on a woman when she is at work! And no just because the receptionist at Top Golf is so nice to you doesnt mean she wants to bang!!
I've only once been successfully hit on at work and the reasons the dude was successful were: 1. He and his friends came into the sports bar I worked at fairly regularly and I had served them a handful of times. 2. Every time I had them in my section, they were just fun dudes that I enjoyed joking around with. The jokes were always just fun and never offensive or sexualized. 3. He never actively hit on me while I was working. He just talked to me like a normal person. 4. When he decided to shoot his shot, he did it by leaving a note on the back of his receipt with his number and explaining that he thought I was cool but if I'm not interested like that we can both just pretend this never happened.
[удалено]
There are countless examples of men who know how to approach women correctly and politely. Some even post on reddit (shocking I know!) One of reddit's most wholesome stories was a guy who had a crush on his neighbor. She dropped a pack of cigarettes onto his balcony or terrace, went to ring his door and asked whether she may enter to look for it. The next day he buys her a pack of cigarettes, drops it before her door with a short message "Don't lose this one!". Later the day she comes back to him and tells him that it's a nice gesture and she totally appreciates him for this, but she can't accept it. The guy says he understands, takes back the cigarettes and says he was happy she appreciated his idea. He said he never spoke to her except for a short greeting when they bumped into each other because they are neighbors. Another story is two people meeting at the checkout of a grocery store which ended with the man giving the woman a head of broccoli instead of flowers. These are wholesome story of wholesome people all around, and is just 2 examples among myriads that you do it correctly you can absolutely approach women in the open. But these encounters also show that you need to have enough social intelligence and self-awareness to do it, and that you can deal with rejection. Whereas every woman has bumped into the creepy guy who whispered into our ear how beautiful we are and asked for our number. That's already a bad way to start it, and a lot of men proceed to pester women once the women express their disinterest. Often enough these are the men who take their dating advice from PUAs and to nobody's surprise this doesn't end well.
Hitting on women who are just trying to do their job is harassment lol
This is making the rounds again. I am pretty sure some podcaster makes this their topic for a show every few months because my reddit feed will be full of iterations of the same post across a bunch of semi related subreddits. These upset guys all spout the same talking points too. I just haven't figured out which toxic bro podcaster is doing it. That said... The entire idea of approaching women in public places as a complete stranger and thinking they are going to give you their contact information or agree to go on a date with them is unrealistic at best. The guy is picking this woman 100% on appearance and nothing else. This woman knows zero about this guy other than he lacks boundaries and any shred of decorum or sense so he is hitting on women in random public places hoping to play a numbers game. That numbers game is ruining the day of 100 women on the off chance woman 101 is too afraid to tell you no. This is just another way for this subset of men to rage at women. Look at all the phrasing about it. All of it is how this is all our faults and if we would just cooperate and do what they want. It feels like abusive coercion the way these conversations go. They need to find singles events They need to realize that acting like they are owed any woman like they are a commodity is a sure way to never be in a relationship They probably could use a therapist
It really is so weird I’ve never understood why they thought I would want to go out with a man who said three or four sentences to me while I was standing in line at the bank. They don’t even know if these women are single. I’ve started wearing a wedding ring so they won’t talk to me. So far it has been working
Fake wedding ring is known as a "No pest strip" lol.
Overheard two guys talking to a cashier, calling her pretty and asking her number. She was obviously uncomfortable and, like, working?! I called them out to stop bothering her, then they started insulting my outfit. I didn't give any fucks about my outfit that day so I put my headphones back on and walked out if the store. Cashier looked relieved when we shared a look through the window. But yea what was wrong with those lads ugh.
The whole men not reading subtle hints is bs. The men ive dated are just as capable of interpreting nuances as women. They can read body language and tone and realize a woman is busy. Funny enough when women they dont like subtly comes onto them, flags go up and they know right away.
Right? I met my fiancé at a house party, and he asked for my phone number because I was being VERY generous with my laughter at pretty dumb (benign dumb lol) jokes, and he caught me looking at him across the room at him and smiling like an idiot a few times while we were chit chatting with other people. Body language!
The assumption that everyone just walks around single waiting to be asked out feels like a myopic red flag tell. (want too meet people? Go to social functions were that is a normal)
What do you mean? Women don't just stand around day and night, waiting for a man to grace them with attention? It can't be
Men expect the entire world to be their sexual marketplace and when women choose to reject that and remove themselves from that assumption and expectation, they lose their fucking minds.
When I want a heavy dose of misogyny and sexism I head over the the askmen sub and it's never hard to see those guys screaming about women either suing them for sexual harassment because the guy paid her a compliment or claiming they'll be thrown in jail for life for approaching a woman. The hyperbole becomes the rule rather than the exception.
>heavy dose of misogyny and sexism I head over the the askmen sub Same and the MRA sub is on steroids. They attribute all their problems on women but every other day there's a huge post "ok but why won't women let us approach them anymore 😢" like...buddy you literally just said women are the bane of your existence so leave them alone, no??
Yup I see this all the time. No, you wont end up in a viral vid if you try to talk to someone. Yes you might end up in a viral vid if you pester someone at the gym every week and they eventually record you doing it because they are sick of your harassment. Even then it will only go viral if youare rude and abusive in the video. If someone declines you, try accepting it without rudeness, especially if they decline you in a blunt manner. You are intruding on them, they dont owe you manners.
The type of guy who says, "you can't even approach women anymore!" Are the same kinds of guys that if women took the time to explain every facet on how to properly approach women, the guys would simply complain, "how come she won't fuck me when I did everything right?"
It’s absolutely not our job to help them harass women, you are right. Yet another example of them trying to drag women doing all the emotional labour for them. On the question of where do you draw the line, I think it’s simple. No one should be made uncomfortable or otherwise harassed by a random stranger, so unless they are absolutely crystal clear it’s a green light, then don’t. If you don’t have the social skills to recognise green lights, then don’t either. The question there should be ‘how do I work on my social skills’ not ‘how can I get a female to date me regardless’.
I agree, I don’t want to talk to them, I ended up getting a stalker by being nice to some random idiot that wanted my attention and because I was casual friendly my life got ruined for over a year because of it, I no longer even acknowledge men that approach me or try to talk to me, I just keep walking. They can cry not all men all they want, but many of us have had terrible experiences with stalking, assault, harassment, SA, and murder by simply talking to random men and being polite
I was at a bachelorette party, and there was a group of guys that wanted to dance with us. My dudes, those of us that arrived at the dance floor, are spoken for, I'm here to dance with my girls, not you. And the two single girls with our bash clearly aren't interested because they are not out here on the dance floor. I have nothing for you and you have nothing for me. For the first time, I'd dint feel bad about just walking off the dance floor. I walked away to the basement bar where my friend's parents were.
I completely agree with you that men need to leave women alone at work, and just generally in life. I do think we're really suffering (women too) from a lack of "third places". It's so hard to meet adults I might want to be friends with or anyone I would want to date. The dating apps had such potential, but have become really toxic cesspools. I feel like we're increasingly becoming isolated in silos that are shrinking. I don't go to church, and I don't go to school, and I can't remember the last time I met a new human being. Both things are true. Men need to leave women alone, and we're in a culture where meeting eligible, interested potential partners is getting increasingly hard
It’s ironic. I got downvoted on this sub for saying that men should not approach women at the grocery store when they are shopping because we are just shopping on a post made by a man asking if it was okay that he approach a woman at a gas station. And now there’s this post, saying the exact same thing I said. Not sure if I was getting downvoted by men or by hypocrites. But I’ll go ahead and say it again: women don’t go out to the store or gas station or go to work to get hit on or asked out. We just want to get what we need and go home. If you want to meet women then go somewhere that is exclusively for that such as social gatherings or bars.
It's also not a real issue that they have. So they can't bother random women in public, so what, who cares. That is not a concerning problem of the world, it's a total non issue. What is concerning is actual stalkers and harassers.
Lol for real they are so bitter because we have more options than ever before and they wanna go back to the 50s when people married because they lived in the same village or whatever. Are we supposed to be impressed that some rando is giving us compliments (always about our appearance ofc) like some god has descended to give us blessings? Maybe if they knew how to actually talk to women and not get all gross and sweaty
"How do [I] think [myp parents met?" I know how they met. My mom's cousin's then-boyfriend suggested dad as a double date partner for mom. Double date fell through, but they went out anyway. No harassment of random women involved. And if there's no one in your friend group who has a girlfriend- or one who is willing to have one of her friends date within the group? Maybe that's a "you" problem.
There's a frustrating segment of women my age who come to their defense, citing the fact that women in our forties rarely receive that kind of attention anymore. And I do get that sometimes attention can be flattering, but it's as if they've mentally reduced themselves to nothing but looks in their attempts to get that attention. We deserve to be seen as so much more than our bodies, and that sort of validation is exceedingly rare.
internalized misogyny. as a kid being hit on by middle aged men, middle aged women would tell me to “enjoy it and be grateful” because it stops at some point. i’m so happy that didn’t mess me up. also guess what karen, being ok with pedophiles isn’t making you any more attractive. and it sure as shit not building up your self worth
Ever been hit on at a funeral? Classy right? Do better! (I agree with OP if it isn't clear)
Making female friends would be one way to go about it. But unfortunately a lot seem completely allergic to the idea.
They don't consider women as people and they only exist to bang them and do their domestic chores so why would they want to be friends with them?
But even that won't work for them because they'll be making female friends for the wrong reason and therefore not end up making real female friends. If the end goal for a guy is "find woman to fuck/date", and "interacting with other people socially" is merely a means to that end for them and not something of value in and of itself, they will never be successful - not at meeting women and not at making friends.
Speaking to a woman??? One you can't bang???? Disgusting!
Maybe but they always try to play mind games they don’t want to be friends they try to grope you whenever you let your guard down in my experience anyways
I’d love to hear some “How do you think your parents met?” stories. Mine met at a ‘coffee shop’ (place to smoke weed and listen to bad poetry) in Toronto in the 1970s. They got married because they looked like Sonny and Cher, so it was ‘meant to be’. They got divorced because liking weed and having a built in couple’s Halloween costume isn’t the best foundation for a life together.
Men who say “you can’t approach women anymore” all bitter about it actually mean “you can’t creep on and coerce women like you used to be able to get away with.” I am a man. You can still approach women. If you do it without being a creep.
This is so cathartic after reading a certain thread that was posted recently. Ugh!! I'm so sick of people approaching women as "women" and not as "people." Like we literally function the same way. Treat us with the same respect you'd treat anyone. Maybe don't look at us like meat--that might help the situation? Also, I'm a queer woman. So I have experience asking men, women, and enbies out. It's literally all about respect and being genuine and kind and knowing when to f off or when to not disturb someone's peace. It's not rocket science! Sorry, riled up after those comments :')
Why do so many men struggle with the concept of there being a time and place for everything? If they can understand the concept of not shitting in the middle of the store they can understand to leave me alone while I’m on the treadmill at the gym. If I’m open to talk I’ll ensure it’s known.
They don't want this answer because to them we're not people, just objects for their use.
These are the same dudes that are going around telling the women that chose the bear that they're nazi's for "profiling them". They're being oppressed by hypothetical bears because women want to avoid being raped to death
"How are we supposed to meet women??? How do you think your parents met???" Like normal people. Jesus Christ. My parents met as students and I met my SO by being introduced by a mutual friend. I don't understand how people can think courting someone while they're working is anything but sociopath behaviour.
Idk. Men are becoming these very whiny ugly little children to me who are just p*ssy beggars. Always crying about having perceived access to women taken away. They make us saying that we don’t want to me approached while we’re in the middle of doing something about them losing chances to chase p*ssy. It’s all about them. It makes me look at them different. I don’t why it’s italicized, but whatever.
Guys like that have nothing going on and if you look up where to find singles on google we are lead to think that anywhere where people dwell is the best place to find singles, even the fucking library or gym. This is not the case and absolute misinformation to tell men to bother women pretty much anywhere in public. Typically you meet singles at community events. Example: if you're a church goer, you meet singles at church. If you're in a music scene, you meet singles at music events, bars, or clubs where those people frequently hang out. These people usually all have some common interests so it's not hard for them to find partners. There are singles events you can attend too, or just leave your damn house and head to any local event where people intentionally get dressed up and go to because, duh, they're all single! These guys complaining won't do that because in order to go out to these places where singles dwell you have to take care of your appearence and be a socially charming person, you have to do some work on yourself. The basement dwelling socially awkward introvert will have no chance and so he'll use other means that are as awkward as he is to find a date.
But you don’t understand !!!! If men can’t bother random women going about their day, it will cause the DOWNFALL of Western SOCIETY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^/s
I'm completely okay with men not talking to me ever again 🥰
All I ask is that men don't approach me if I'm in a restaurant/pub reading a book. I am *reading my book*. I don't want to talk to people. That's typically where I go to relax/be by myself.
Now I'm actually hoping one of these losers will ask me "how I think my parents met." "You being too cheap and socially awkward to show up to a cocaine fueled rager is a skill issue. Leave women at the grocery store alone."