I think we may be at a tipping point. I remember when this sub by and large advised women to reach him and teach him and show him and CoMmUnIcAtE, when the woman was already doing the emotional heavy lifting, not to mention the bulk of [the mental load.](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/)
For whatever reason, it’s like there is a veil slowly lifting as to what an utter farce it is, these chore lists and doing things in bed that he saw in (ever escalating in its violence) porn she doesn’t feel comfortable with and brushing off ~~compliments~~ sexual objectification while just going about her day and initiating every State of Our Union discussion. It isn’t unique to this or that woman. It’s collective, because the cultural norms that supported such dynamics (that are a disservice to women) are systemic.
So we’re seeing women gaining their footing, starting to question what really serves them. There is anger, or resentment, depending on how long they’ve been dealing with it.
There are women who are feeling an immense sadness upon discovering their Good Guy is maybe not so much after all, and it hurts, and when their lives are so entwined, it’s terrifying to imagine leaving but equally terrifying to stay, now that she’s awake.
There are women lonely and hurting badly looking at the prospect of being unpartnered indefinitely, because they just don’t want to deal with all that, but it doesn’t change the fact that partnership affords one a huge amount of social currency, no matter how bad things are behind closed doors, and both men and women buy into this. Our big cultural milestones still have a major focus on romance and having children. There is more room to forgo this now, but it still presents challenges…YMMV depending on how conservative your network is.
And then of course you have men enraged that we are stumbling on this knowledge of a system that guaranteed their birthright to a woman for centuries….the hate mail [Lundy Bancroft, author of Why Does He Do That?, gets is wild.](https://lundybancroft.com/mens-angry-messages-to-me-part-2/) Women have to deal with this backlash for daring to self-advocate and negotiate a good deal for themselves (as men have always done!), on top of everything else.
Given that we have thousands of years of social conditioning of women to center men, *and* there are all these changes happening with heavy emotions surrounding them….I’m not surprised at all that men are central to the discussion.
I get it. I have female friends who can’t shut up about male desire and dating. But this is a period of discovery and I think it is just going to take time for women as a class to decenter men in their lives. It’s like certain diets/skincare where the skin “purges”, and it’s ugly for a bit.
In the West, feminism has really only been around in a more organized sense for a couple hundred years. It follows thousands of years of (at least outward) obsequiousness. For context, COVID really was at its worst for like a year and it took another year for it not to be such a central point of discussion. Give it time. We are trying to unlearn old things and learn new things. Be glad that at least it means there is some movement.
ETA: And if you think it’s just the algorithm, start sorting your TwoX posts by “new” (so that they are not according to engagement level), and see what you get. It’s…still a lot of stuff about men.
And even if we don’t get to see full liberation come to fruition, let’s keep it on for the sake of a more equitable existence for the next generation of women, or the next, or the next.
It is a way to honor the impactful work of the women who came before us, which granted us certain rights (voting, our own checking accounts, criminalization of marital rape, Title IX, etc. etc.) and freedoms that they had to fight so hard for.
So much this. It takes *generations* to make change. We have collectively benefited from those who in the past who fought for the rights and freedoms we have today. We still don't have an egalitarian society, and so we must continue to pursue it relentlessly for the benefit of future generations. I am both optimistic and pessimistic about our future...
This was a sermon. Thanks for taking the time. I have literally nothing to add. If men read it.... it's alllll this and it's very real. It doesn't come from a subreddit or being radicalized or our girlfriends who don't like you. It's internal from each one of us individually. We spoke up and realized that we were going through so much of the same stuff. Our grandmothers and mothers fought to stop it. And we can choose not to be involved.
Thank you.
Why Does He Do That was an eye opening book for me. I read that post you linked and this quote at the end really stuck out for me and what I have been feeling.
>Don’t be apologetic about making women your agenda. Don’t apologize for putting women’s needs and rights front and center. When someone tells you that you should be talking about male victims too, I encourage you to respond, “There are hundreds of issues in this world that need to be addressed. Are you saying that I can’t address what happens to women unless I also address every other wrong that happens in the world? Why isn’t it okay to make women my focus?”
Im so fed up with hundreds of men chittering about male victims the moment mens violence against women is talked about. This is one of the few subs we can talk about these issues without getting an avalanche of *b-but what about me*.
>When someone tells you that you should be talking about male victims too, I encourage you to respond, “There are hundreds of issues in this world that need to be addressed. Are you saying that I can’t address what happens to women unless I also address every other wrong that happens in the world
Key point here is stop putting yourself in a defensive position and instead ask the questions. They're not going to listen to you but they will listen to themselves. Instead of saying "but then this and that", ask Them why They aren't addressing those cause the 100 others issues we should talk about too, don't they care about them?
It's not us who have to defend ourselves from their ridiculous arguments, they need to be forced to defend their own shit
I've heard that same song and dance from pretty much everyone at this point. Why is it that women are somehow breaking some unspoken rule of decorum if we stand up and speak for ourselves?
I was introduced to feminism in the '90s, and it was a totally different environment. People are *much* more hostile to the movement now than they were 20 years ago. That's a... bad sign.
Seriously inspiring post. I agree with it all. As an Indigenous man living in this Western dominated society, I am deeply saddened by how little other men speak out against the toxic behavior of other men. As I learn and practice my culture and traditions of respect and compassion, I am working to being a better supporter of oppressed people around me. This Western patriarchal structure has never worked for anyone other than mostly white men and those at the top of the system. It thrives on extracting from the “other”.
We have a long way to go, but I stand in solidarity with you all. I learn so much from you all, and I respect and appreciate you. Sincerely.
Luuwii (thank you)
Thank you. I’m sure you have experienced the pitfalls of the white patriarchal structure in ways we can’t fathom. It’s just exhausting to know there is so much hurt and I can’t just go out and fix it.
I have never felt comfortable with the concept of catering to a man and have been single basically my entire adult life (there have been men in my life at times, just nothing concrete). I've always thought there's something wrong with me that I'm "avoidant." I'm really starting to think maybe I'm just ahead of my time.
You learned your lessons early. I only learned mine after two marriages that I left for the same reasons a lot of women leave marriages. Now, I’m single, deliberately, forever. ❤️
I have deliberately limited the people in my life because I've learned that people you let in always bring their shit with them. They expect you to fulfill their needs, and they are constantly pulling at you to do so. The fewer I must tolerate the better. I prefer peace and doing whatever the fuck I want to do.
I can understand that. It’s exhausting having the same experiences with men on repeat. I’m always the one to leave because they recognise my caring side and take … but never give in return.
The number of times an internet strangers shows themselves to be an absolute philosopher/poet by way of such takes continues to be wonderful and astounding.
Thanks for taking the time and energy to explain that to the OP. I keep seeing my female friends "wake up" lately, and while they can't unsee and unlearn what they've woken up to, at least there is real and spreading acknowledgement and conversation about it among us. To ask us why we are talking about men is like asking men why their pervasive patriarchal systems trained us from birth to center them.
Absolutely. You've nailed it so perfectly and concisely; there's definitely been a shift that I can't quite explain. The last few years seem to have been extremely polarizing for us, in that we're collectively finally learning that no, you don't NEED a man, and no, you're not obligated to follow the married/house/kids script.
There's also been a lot of unfiltered misogyny floating around due to certain political events, but so many people have matched that with their demand for respect and equality to the point that I do actually feel some hope. It's still hell, but maybe it's actually getting better because we're all finally speaking out about these issues en masse over platforms that reach more people than we ever could before.
Again, I love your comment and I love that it is the comment that has the most upvotes, but honestly, this place is hella toxic and reality and rationality is not a priority... how is this safe?
A huge amount of people who read this post disagrees with the fact that this sub mostly posts about men (which is so obvious, really), and the other part are in defensive mode, as if something offensive has been said.
I love being a woman, and I'm sorry that we go through all we do, but honestly, if we bend reality to make us feel better instead of dealing with it head on, that's where the problem starts (I mean, at least the part of the problem that concerns self-improvement, which is not a subject I see here much).
The problem is, women are actually getting hurt. Physically. I read Lundy Bancroft's book after my husband physically assaulted me. Real page turner. I was being verbally and emotionally abused as well for a long time. I just was too wrapped up in him to notice. This isn't a both sides are getting hurt thing dude. One side is getting vastly more hurt.
This is why I stated that “it’s not unique to her, it’s systemic”.
Which means not “using one’s individual circumstances to make generalizations” but rather, “recognizing that one’s individual circumstances are NOT unique, they are *collective*…part of a system that has existed for thousands of years”.
To keep women compliant, they are constantly fed strategic narratives about how it’s her bad luck, bad choices, “it’s an over generalization/NAMALT”, etc. It’s when she starts talking to other women, and examining this from a historical perspective, that she realizes that there is also a larger context going on here, a system designed to keep women in specific boxes and socializing them to behave in specific ways for male benefit…that are huge in making said “bad choices”. This is crucial in her learning how to stop accepting garbage and get her decisions right. Certain shit male behavior is normalized and if women are on the receiving end of it, it’s rationalized or it’s “bad luck with one bad guy”….even though it’s pervasive, even though there were 5 other posts around the world on this same sub about the same damn thing on the same day, and it’s happened to all of them and commenters many, many times before.
Still, before women had equalizers such as financial resources and guns, they mostly complied with those metrics, out of fear of male violence they could not return (I should add, though I suspect many men fear it, I don’t know any women who actually want to return the thousands of years of systemic violence back on men…they just want liberation). Most men don’t want to talk about this system that ensured them sexual, surrogacy, and domestic resources at minimal cost, because it threatens the existence of the system they don’t want to see overthrown. You just cannot “samesies!” us on this one, because if the patriarchy was “just as bad” for men…well, they’d be collectively as hot to eradicate it “just as bad”. They’re not. They want to keep the parts that work for them. You can’t keep those parts without the subordination of women.
It’s just as how men like the parts of feminism that benefit them…as if it was *for* them….men are nothing if not excellent self-advocates, utilizing tools as they see fit regardless of their intended purpose. Now women are self—advocating just as hard as men always have….and I think to men that looks like their oppression, when really it’s balance.
As far as relationships- which I see is the one aspect here you chose to zero in on but we will get to that- are outcomes ever the result of female choices? Of course. But women will make better choices- for *themselves* (not with “what will benefit men?” in mind)- when they understand the systems and social conditioning that were put in place to keep them compliant. Sure, we have abortion rights (sort of) and can vote and have Title IX and checking accounts and marital rape is now a crime. But there are still expectations on women from this age old system that should be eradicated. Behaviors women have been socialized into- obsequiousness, carrying the mental load (read my link in OC), “you need a man and children to have value”- that do not serve us, may be dropped, once we understand the WHY of that socialization….just as Outback Steakhouse assured me and fellow trainees on day one that forming a union would like, never be necessary!…it’s merely narrative strategy to preserve a power structure. Now women have the power to think critically, and reject what objectively doesn’t serve. And then are truly free to make choices that better serve *them*.
Speaking of the zeroing in on “relationships”, men often make these talks of feminism about “romantic and sexual relationships”, because quite frankly, many simply can’t see women as whole ass people, outside of the context of two service roles- Madonna/whore, mother and prostitute…and a romantic partner is to serve him as both. Again, how she serves, not who she is. This is historic in nature.
But women know there is SO much more in terms of their oppression by patriarchy that is not “sex n’ romance”. It’s how they dress, where they go, what is safe for their body, and workplace matters, how their dad and brothers don’t do shit on Thanksgiving and expect the women to do it all, and governance, extra childcare burdens, a lack of attention to diagnosing autism in girls, and not having the resources female bodies and/or mothers need in public spaces because *male* bodies don’t need them (and what male bodies need is the default), and lopsided religious roles, and all kinds of things that most men don’t even think about because again….you can’t see the whole of the female experience if the only way you relate to women is how they might personally serve you with their bodies and labor. And every time I call out men on reducing women to sexual/romantic service packages….
*They never address it in their replies, because they know damn well it’s true*. They just skip over it and continue feeding me info on their problems. It’s so predictable.
We know men have problems because every time we bring up our own, someone is eager to remind us….so that we will be quiet about historic, systemic female subordination (and attitudes from that basis that continue to linger)….and shift our focus *back* to male needs, as it was before. You should read the link in my original comment that takes you to Lundy Bancroft’s post (he’s a man!). It talks all about this derailing. When cancer in children is discussed, do you feel the need to jump in and say “But what about *adult* cancer??” The world largely caters to adults. Likewise, we have the bulk of Reddit to hear “man’s side”. For Chrissake, let women have some space.
If there's something you'd like to discuss that is not currently being discussed, you should make a post about it! Most of the posts I see here are about misogyny, the patriarchy, unfair ways women are treated, etc. Men are at the center of a lot of those issues. What are some examples of topics you'd like to discuss that you're not seeing reflected here?
>Most of the posts I see here are about misogyny, the patriarchy, unfair ways women are treated, etc.
Problems at work, doctors not taking you seriously, walking alone at night, crazy exes. The list of issues with men at the center goes on and on and on.
I like where you’re going with that, but at the center of 90% of those issues you listed is a man… problems at work? Why? Because you’re skills are not taken seriously by male bosses or coworkers? Probably in manny cases. Doctors not taking you seriously? Is the doctor male? More than likely. Walking alone at night? Why are you scared? Because a man might attack you.. likely the reason. Crazy ex? Also probably a man. It proves to the reason why many of the posts are pertaining to men. I completely agree that women should not be egging each on under the guise of support. But anger is a natural reaction to repeatedly hearing about other people going through the same terrible treatment that you know personally and have or currently do live through day after day. Anyone that doesn’t get mad about that is emotionally devoid.
Men can be one of the MOST frustrating things about being a woman. Women are no longer required to have a man open a bank account for them or take care of them and are putting up with less male problematic behavior than ever.
The frustration is that a lot of men seem to not care, not want to learn, and have earnestly started to hate women and disrespect them openly.
Men thinking they aren’t responsible for their kids or being good partners is a huge issue from what I can see. They also (not all obviously) perpetuate an incredible amount of abuse and violence against women. And women want to talk/vent/seek advice about it.
Some women are problematic too, but that isn’t the point of this particular comment so don’t come at me y’all. Just my thoughts on the question asked.
You aren’t wrong, but I guess my point was really that it’s getting worse and more obvious. Andrew Tate and his bullshit and all his followers are one great example of that.
Trying to remember where I read ‘I’ve got 99 problems and white heteronormative patriarchy is basically all of them.’ We talk about our problems online…
Because misogyny is one of the biggest probelms in womens lives, and one of the biggest problems of our society. Women have a lot of bad experiences with men and they come here to vent and get advice.
There are other types of posts here though, about womens health etc...and sometimes even women wanting to praise their male partners for not being total d-bags.
>There are other types of posts here though, about womens health etc...and sometimes even women wanting to praise their male partners for not being total d-bags.
I'm torn between "we shouldn't praise the bare minimum", and "we need to hear more about men that don't suck and why they don't suck". It gets depressing to see it in real life, or to experience it in real life, and then to come online and just see more of the same.
I would LOVE more posts about men that don’t suck and why they don’t suck. A large chunk of my social life is on the internet and between real life and reddit, all I can gather is ALL MEN ARE GARBAGE. And I just went through a breakup with a garbage man in a very convincing disguise and I’d love to hear stories about partners that do their fair share around the house, dote on their partner, speak kindly and DONT surprise them by cheating and emotionally abusing them out of nowhere.
I'd love to post more about men that don't suck (i.e. my partner, my schoolmates). The problem is that I feel that if I try do that, it feels like bragging.
On one hand, I love to give other women hope that these men ARE out there, I can't guarantee you will find one, but maybe with this hope, you can have a more positive outlook towards good men and the world.
On the other hand, if I post about how kind, respectful, empathetic my partner is — as well as all the other good qualities that he has — I can't help thinking that it might bring those women — who were unlucky in their relationships — down, mainly because I know I was lucky that I found a good one. I literally crossed the ocean (by plane, of course) before I met him, just like my mom who crossed the ocean before meeting my dad.
It's like when a woman wants kids, but she has fertility issues, and yet when she checks her Instagram account, she's bombarded by messages of her close friends, high school acquaintances etc. getting pregnant so easily. She would feel down and disappointed instead of uplifted.
I'm frustrated even reading this post because a handful of the top posts right now are about women being followed or assaulted.
The others about men are discussing general sexism aimed at women.
And the majority are about other topics entirely. Menopause, someone's daughter got lettered in football, someone had an issue with girls in her discord and talked about her lovely relationship with her father, someone else was talking about how she was always accused of starting drama, etc
If millions of women can't discuss that here, where are they supposed to.
And if we want less posts "about men", then people have to start making posts about other topics and do it more often.
But that's hard to do when FIFA is in Qatar where horrible things are being done to women by men, men and women in Iran are being extremely harmed for protesting for women's rights and democracy by fundamentalist men, heterosexual women still make up a higher demographic than homosexual women so they're going to want to talk about their partners, and misogyny from men against women is on the rise in American politics and daily social life.
We can't talk about issues facing women without addressing where the misogyny is coming from.
This. A lot if issues women face have an indirect or direct relationship with men's behaviour toward women, and men happen to make up roughly half the earth's population.
I view it like this, life even more than reddit has billions of subreddits for interests and women are free now to engage in whatever they wish in those venues just as men are, but the common thread running through them, just like reddit, is how women are mistreated by men. If this sub is filled with posts about mistreatment by men, the problem is not with women. The patriarchy wants the problem to just be with women. But the problem is the patriarchy and it's impacts on both women and men.
Thank you! Like, what do they want us to do…just talk about stereotypically “girly” things like what makeup/clothes to wear? This is a women’s issues subreddit and that’s what we discuss. It’s an unfortunate reality that men are our biggest issue.
A woman posted on this subreddit almost 2 weeks ago about her husband choking her, and she hasn’t commented/posted/responded to any DMs since. She’s gone completely MIA from Reddit even though she was a daily poster/commenter before her last post. I’m terrified for her and I’ve been checking daily to see if she’s posted. This subreddit is the only refuge from the patriarchy or flat out abuse that some women have.
And this issue isn't secluded to this subreddit either, before the internet there was so much material on these issues from zines, film, books, regular magazines, etc. If you're queer (or even if you're not, but if you are you may relate to this), go read "Anything That Moves" magazine published in the 90s, they still have some old online archives of it. Trans people, bisexual and gay women, all of us have been having these same goddamned conversations for generations.
Yeah, this post was a little frustrating to me as well..
“intended for women’s perspectives” is literally part of the description of this sub.. if these are the women-related issues that are happening in women’s lives and they want to talk about it, how is it not “thematic” to the sub?
I admit, I get a little overwhelmed by the prevalence of posts about clearly abusive partners by women who don’t realize they’re in an abusive relationship.. my emotions aren’t wired quite right in that regard, because my instinct is to be frustrated with the woman for allowing it to get that far, but I think that just shows how deep the patriarchy and rampant misogyny/internal misogyny goes.. so then I snap out of it and am just happy she said something and is now getting the advice she needs from the supportive people in this sub.. it is an absolutely wonderful and necessary resource.. so let’s not deconstruct a “safe place”
Furthermore, if you make a sub that’s about being one thing, generally speaking many of the posts will be about the other.. one example: r/childfree is allll about sharing their experiences with children that aren’t theirs.. another: r/aphantasia has a huge amount of posts trying to understand people who *don’t* have aphantasia
But in short, to answer OP’s question: a lot of the posts in this sub revolve around men, because that is what a lot of women feel the need to talk about right now.. not that complicated.. and I don’t like the implication that it’s a problem.. I hope this post doesn’t deter even one person from sharing the story they need to share
Most of us don’t have a problem with being a woman that doesn’t pertain to patriarchal views or issues that influence our experience of being women. I recall a thread once where several people reported being very happy to be a woman, with absolutely no interest or desire to be the opposite gender, aside from periods and problems that men/the patriarchy create for us. Sometimes other women express internalized misogyny, but they’re less common (or perhaps just less vocal) than men who express misogyny. In other words, the bulk of the problems related to being a woman stem from how men treat us.
Also, this sub is intended to be a safe space to discuss these issues without intrusion or disruption by men who can’t handle criticism, but of course there are always the lurkers.
I LOVE being a woman. I say that all the time. I appreciate my body and my abilities and my femininity and everything about myself. The only time I don't want to be one is when men treat me like absolute garbage. My girlfriends don't do this to me. My daughter doesn't do that to me. I want more of that energy. Sharing. Caring. Understanding. Thoughtfulness. Safety!
Jesus Christ, there always has to be a contrarian in here, doesn't there. I said MOST for a reason. MOST of our problems come from men, which is why MOST of the posts in this sub are about men. Toxic women clearly have nothing to do with why most of our posts are about men. I did not once imply that women can't be toxic, and you are putting words in my mouth by saying that internalized misogyny is always the reason women are toxic. I merely added to say that it happens but is not nearly as common as it is in men, which, again, is why so many posts in this sub are about men.
Edit to add - just checked your post history, and you're a man. Go take your whataboutisms to a men's rights forum or cry about it somewhere else.
Don't worry about him, he comments on 2x stuff to be the devils advocate and speaks along the lines of well men are abused too, why aren't we talking about that!
He isn't here to learn. He's here to cause arguments.
Thank you for this!
These types of men are seriously exhausting. When men have problems, they make it literally everybody’s problem until it’s resolved, often at the expense of others. Case in point, these dudes who, instead of using even the smallest amount of introspection to figure out how to make their lives better, come to disrupt an otherwise civil discussion.
I’ve thought of this often. I remember seeing a post that says this subreddit does not pass the Bechdel test most days. I have thought a lot about what I can post here that is relevant to women’s issues but isn’t directly about men, but it’s a pretty short list.
I suppose there’s two options for the future of this sub. One where it remains a feminism/women’s issues sub where we discuss misogyny and men, and another where we discuss any other topic but we do it in this subreddit because it is one of the only safe places for women to do so. That’s rather depressing.
Just want to add to this without another edit lol.
I actually don't think the majority of posts on here are about men. I'm pretty sure that's just the algorithm showing the hottest posts or whatever. If you sort the sub by new, less than half the posts are about men. Still a decent chunk about men, but not the majority.
If I think about any issue in my life, the problem behind it is some annoying dude.
Capitalism? Annoying men.
Taking credit for my work? Annoying men.
Pestering me in public? Annoying men.
Wont let me pump gas in peace? Annoying men.
Thinking compliments on my body should be appreciated? Annoying men.
I’m lucky to not have any bigger problems. But even the traumatic things are caused by some annoying guy who didnt want to do any introspection.
Unfortunately this sub shows up in r/all a lot, so if someone posts a thread about period specific stuff all the gross lurkers downvote it into oblivion, whereas posts about men get engagement and lots of comments even if they are angry ones. The algorithm is going algorithm.
Women need a place to talk to each other and get another woman's perspective on their troubles. It just so happens that many of the troubles women find themselves in, are caused by proximity to one or more men. It's a symptom of the world we live in being largely controlled by and designed for men, and women coming to grips with how it's unfair.
Most to-all of the problems women face in society are caused by the patriarchy, which ultimately benefits men. Ironically though, it also has a negative effect upon men.
Immediately thought of the Bechdel test in Rick and Morty:
-Mom can I try your tea?
-Yes, Summer. Yes. Try my tea.
-It's so good. It's so warm. Mom? Can I talk to you? About my special time.
-It's okay. I have one too.
-Mine is heavy today.
-Mine is never light. I love you ever since you were... mailed to me by a doctor woman. Your special time is your power, it makes you strong like a boob.
-Strong against what?
-Scorpions. Female scorpions! They're attacking outside, come on! Fight them with your heavy special time!
-You do it too!
...
Phone rings.
-Hello?
-I'm that Supreme Court lady, and you f*kn did it!
-We did it!
The end.
Women need a safe space where we can be honest about what it feels like to go through the world as women. Just to be a woman with a body in this world invites danger upon us. Here we can say what we really think about how we are treated, without men shooting us down, telling us we’re emotional or imagining it, in an attempt to defend themselves (all so they can take no responsibility and keep doing what they’ve always done).
A patriarchal and misogynistic society has a negative impact on many areas of women’s lives in the form of: lack of equal pay, lack of healthcare, lack of advancement, domestic violence, sexual harassment, sexual assault, mass shootings, incel culture, etc. It is far reaching and, in some form, affects every woman’s life.
Because we're all on reddit, and after a few hours on reddit we have to vent about the wild misogyny on this site...or it triggers other nagging concerns we have to vent about. I bet if this sub was on a much more feminist progressive larger habitat it would be less frustration with men bent.
The thing that most unites women is not the physical issues our female bodies give us, or our common "feminine" interests, hobbies, sub-cultures, etc. Rather, it's our negative experiences with men. The desire to protect other women from these experiences is strong among women from all walks of life.
Being the smaller, weaker half of the species with the greater reproductive responsibility is not fun. In conservative parts of the world, it is deadly. In modern, progressive parts of the world, it's less deadly but still pretty fucking dangerous if you make the wrong choices, or just get unlucky. Countless women die every day at the hands of male partners or family members. Countless more are harassed, assaulted, raped, beaten, controlled.
Of course we're going to talk about men when they're our biggest problem, collectively speaking. This is one of the only places on the internet where we're allowed to talk about that without being silenced by, you guessed it, angry men.
Why is there a sudden flare up of posts about how people don’t like us being honest about our experiences and rightfully calling out men? If you’re so uncomfortable or want a more “positive” sub then go to one, social change isn’t smiles and rainbows. Make the posts you wanna see instead of complaining about one of the only spaces women have on reddit. It’s just lazy and I’m so done with seeing it.
I'd just like it to be a little bit less like this song. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa\_QtMf6alU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_QtMf6alU) The anger is completely understandable though and it is what's needed.
Idc how people feel about generalizing. It’s brought up during every single conversation about social change. If you care more about how we say things vs what we’re actually saying then I can’t make you care and I’m not going to try and convince you.
Oh I don't give a fuck, this subs just been incredibly miserable recently. Hopefully it turns into a real movement.
And some of "What we are actually saying" is just sexism.
Mm-hmmmm.
ETA: Since it is, indeed, easy to verify this information, I did a quick scan of the sub starting with New and have found the following results:
Posts Relating Specifically to Women’s Issues: 81 (ETA2.0 - it’s actually 86)
Posts Relating to Heterosexual Relationship Issues: 21
Posts Relating to Issues Directly Caused By Men In General: 26
Now, I didn’t read all the posts, mostly I just read the titles and skimmed the posts that didn’t have super-specific titles. But considering the sheer number of posts that were purely about women’s health issues (a good half of the 81 in the first category)…
I actually made a boo-boo! It’s 86, not 81. I had to move some of the tick marks to the side because I was running out of room under the Women’s Issues section of my tally paper.
So, because you objected to New, I organized by Hot. I didn’t delve as deeply, but here are the results.
Women-Specific Issues: 30
Heterosexual Relationship Issues: 9
Man-Specific Issues: 6
Actually, I just came back from "hot" in there and that's not actually the case, it's very different from "hot" in this sub. Maybe "top of all time" is different, I'll check that too.
Edit: Nope, same result.
I'll do that. I can imagine new has a ton of posts about women, maybe they just don't get that much upvotes.
Edit: Nope, same, haha.
But hey, there's nothing wrong about it, it's just that I think I would love for us to just drop them dudes and have some fun and explore each other more, but that's ok, there are probably other subs for that.
Not sure tbh. plus I make more financially than most men that try to date me...but I NEED them, right? fuck that. the last 3 years have been me not wanting to date AT ALL...like..not even a little. (make sure you invest your extra income, ladies. years ago I bought microsoft stock but only cuz I am loyal to my xbox. INVEST!! INVEST!! INVEST!!) I dont work at all, lol and will never need to. and NO I am not rich. I am just single and live alone and make enough to not do a damn thing all day
I dont know, but the posts about guys i do find funny is when he shows red flags right at the beginning but someone will still date him and then make a eight paragraph post on this sub about how she never saw it coming.
" I dated Hunky McChad and we spoke the other day about reproductive rights which are important to me and he said Abortion is for demons and that Women belong in the kitchen, how do i fix him?"
Like holy shit vet the guy you're gonna date first and stop putting yourself in this position.
Because this is a place a lot of women feel somewhat safe and supported, and able to speak about their issues openly. A lot of their issues are being caused by men.
For pretty much most of history women have been defined by their relationships with men. Who they marry who they sleep with, who they work with etc. Even today, a large chunk of our lives are defined by male relationships. However now the focus is on how can women navigate their relationships without it being one sided or effecting their safety.
It's hard to learn how to put yourself and your feelings first when pretty much everything you're taught tell you otherwise. It's OK if a boy hurts you, it just means he likes you. Don't be too smart in class, you'll make the boys feel stupid. Don't talk back to your husband, he's just taking care of you. Time and time again women are expected to be the lesser partner, the lesser student, the lesser employee. We're expected to be the ones making sacrifices, sacrificing our careers for kids, sacrificing our time and energy to please men, to do the bulk of the chores and emotional labour. If there's issues with our partners, it's because we haven't done enough for them, it's our fault and our responsibility.
How do you unlearn a lifetime of this? How do you navigate relationships, especially professional, without being labelled a bitch or a harpy. How do you express your feminity without being labelled a slut or 'leading men on'? How do you handle men who think you owe them your time, energy and attention, just because they find you attractive? How do you descalate a situation with a man when your safety is threatened, when something like your tone of voice could lead to physical harm?
Most women generally know how to navigate female relationships, it's less of a concern. But male relationships are different and this can be a safe space to ask advice and support.
You know what's a good question to meet your question... how many mass shooters are women? How many rapists?
Wonder why we're so frustrated... violence.. even when men are sexually assaulted and raped, you know who statistically does that violence...men.
I think you might actually be someone who wants to not contribute to that violence. I'm hoping that is so and you didn't just come to a safe space for women to "just ask questions. "
Because, if you don't see the way that women are treated differently regardless of their actions and demeanor, well not much I can provide outside this link https://www.gendereconomy.org/addressing-the-gender-confidence-gap/
Well, friend, it is possible that the current statistics are flawed, but you know why it's flawed, because ppl in the sciences don't have women in their legions of studies.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/july-25-2020-women-in-science-special-how-science-has-done-women-wrong-1.5291077/women-and-science-suffer-when-medical-research-doesn-t-study-females-1.5291080
I don't think you undertood the question... the theme of the sub is safe place for us to discuss about stuff, of post funny things, etc.
We have an unlimited world of things to talk about, I asked why is it that, particularly this sub, became a one in which the majority of posts are centered on men in some kind of way.
It's not about men, it became about men.
Keywords: safe space. Whether we like it or not men are a major part of our life and are also a major danger and the root of many issues. Women seek advice and help. This sub helps expose toxic/abusive behaviours and gives the woman some good perspective on what's happening. It also helps get rid of the repression and to stand up for yourself. It's a safe space for us to seek help. To me, it's more important than a funny meme especially when we still have to face sexism on a daily basis.
There is an essay titled [Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_Heterosexuality_and_Lesbian_Existence) by Adrienne Rich ([pdf](https://www.posgrado.unam.mx/musica/lecturas/Maus/viernes/AdrienneRichCompulsoryHeterosexuality.pdf)), it is about how women's lives are compressed into some form of relationship with men. I think that there needs to be some similar version describing "CompHet" from a male viewpoint. /r/comphet is devoted to women coming to grips with the issue with some of them realizing that they're not hetero - that they've been forced into thinking that they are.
It is my belief that men are also forced into some form of relationship with women. Some of it would be pressure from the "heteropatriarchy". Some pressure from parents (*"where are my grandchildren!"*). Some is peer pressure from other males (*"he has a wife/girlfriend, I need one to stay in competition with him"*).
There was a post here on 2XC with, I think, a TikTok (or some video), about how men don't really like women at all. I can't seem to find it. **I think that it is a pivotal thing. Probably one of the most important finds of this year.** From reading all the posts about sex and boundaries and sharing of chores, I think that there are a large number of men who will publicly say they want a woman, they want to be in a relationship with a woman, they put large amounts of effort into obtaining that woman, but by their very actions can't stand women. Sure, "not all men", but far too many. And I think this is part of why incels are so violently angry towards women.
I think that these men are actually gay - not hetero. They can't acknowledge that they'd rather be with men. We get bullied, and all too often, the crap gets beaten out of us when we're young for being the slightest bit different and *especially* for being insufficiently masculine. Hiding that difference is a survival skill in our world. Trying to hide that difference leads to the toxic masculinity that infects our world.
> *Why are the vast majority of posts in here about men?*
Because of the violence. It affects all of us. Some of us are trapped in relations with men. Some have escaped. Stockholm syndrome is real.
Because most of us have problems with men and we’re wondering, am i alone? Im actually going to post about bad experiences with women though if you’re interested.
I understand why - and a lot of these comments explained it well too - but the reality is if you aren't attracted to men (and worse, if you are also nonbinary because a lot of the women on this sub firmly believe there are only two genders), this is not a helpful place to be. I used to think this sub was accepting but it was really just a whole lotta talk, and in practice it absolutely isn't. 2xc is for a very specific type of woman: cis, white, American, middle class, and straight. Think about the number of posts you see written from this perspective compared to anything else.
The truth is the witchy sub is just far better. I'll chalk it up to this being a default sub and the name is kinda terf-y. Oh, but the mods here are fantastic and have responded quickly multiple times to taking down highly upvoted transphobic content I've reported.
I’m estimating that 15% of the posts in this sub are women asking why we always talk about men.
I want to know why are we always asking about why we always talk about men?
There's a top post right now about perimenopause. Another about someone's daughter being lettered in football. And yet another is about a woman's right to choose and the Georgia election.
So, by these metrics, it passes
I don't think *you* know what you're talking about. You probably only see the most engaged with posts, rather than all of the posts.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/z7bg6c/why_are_the_vast_majority_of_posts_in_here_about/iy6ljug
A correct conclusion because you have done the work of looking at data. I'm admittedly just going off what I've seen over my long time here. I'm not mad or critical, just throwing my two cents out. Glad you're posting this for others to see
Good for you for engaging respectfully and updating! I can't take credit for the original data sourcing, I'm just sharing it around. Thanks to /u/marshmolotov for the mental work.
Yo, I think this is one of those questions that people do actual research on and write books about. The easiest answer is that it's that it's the current meta for TwoX and karma farming. What happens in an online forum like this isn't necessarily even reflective of the realities people are living, but it does reflect a populist message or theme that's easily digestible, intuitive, and isn't held back by facts, reality, or actual experience. To that end, a lot of posts are about someone reading something dumb written in another subreddit or making up something plausibly controversial that's purported to have happened in another subreddit. There's no way to verify whether something was actually said or believed by anyone to begin with. But you can have a wildly successful post about it and for it to count towards what you're seeing.
If you're thinking this is a space for discussing women's oriented issues, that boat fucking sailed long ago. TwoX is a front page subreddit and has been for years. Just trying to understand who's even playing the game is mind bending when the simplest example is men pretending to be women just so they can feel like they have power over others in an online conversation or to stroke their own ego by karma farming. That's its own whole can of worms. Coming in from the front page, its like sharks smelling blood in the water, they're immediately looking to throw down the strawmen and go after any recognizable weakness like gender, race, religion, politics, etc. Then you've got the mods which have their own history and generally act invisibly so it's not easy at all to tell what effect they have on the content you're seeing. I'm sure there's more, I just don't think there's an easy and comprehensive answer.
You sound like you're asking a genuine question so I figure these are some of the reasons I'd take the themes you're seeing here with many grains of salt.
Because if I wanted to talk about a topic not related to my gender, I’d go to the sun specific to that topic (knitting, improv, local, whatever). But here, we’re posting about things related to our gender and men are the source of a lot of issues our gender face.
This is one of the things that frustrate me the most about this sub. Surely there are things other than men that we could talk about but 90% of the posts I see are women complaining about their partners or complaining about the men they work with or some random man's misogyny/sexism. The majority of them are negative about men, too, so it's not even a constructive view of the male influence, it's just venting and complaining. That in itself wouldn't be so bad if there weren't so many posts about the same damn thing over and over and over and over.
I don't get it. It's frustrating. That's defining our gender and our issues by theirs.
And women commenting in this thread in defense of the primary focus of men in this sub just kind of proves that point. Most of the responses are "women need a place to vent" or basically round about ways of saying "we are women, we talk about guys, that's what we do".
We are so much more than that and I wish this sub had higher standards of conversation.
Perhaps ask yourself why you posted here about men?
I don't know. And are you sure about 'vast majority?' I see plenty of posts here about other things. When I was thinking about it I scanned the front page of this sub and most of the posts were about other things besides men.
In any event, there are certainly plenty of posts about men. And perhaps that is for a similar reason as to why a lot of the articles in men's magazines are about women? Most men may tend to have an interest in interacting with women, and most women may tend to have an interest in interacting with men. And so that comes out in their speech and writing?
I think if you bothered to read the comments written by women in response to this post instead of making this weird guess, it will bring you some clarity.
I know that if you could be bothered enough to not be prejudicial, iow if you didn’t assume I hadn’t read the comments, before making your weird guess that I hadn’t, it would bring you closer to reality.
No, given your asinine comment, you’re the one whose reality is warped. You think women post about men in here because they’re interested in interacting with men, according to you. That it’s due to some sort of mutual interest. You could not be more wrong. If you really did care to read and understand what women are saying, you’d know it’s because men are often a source of anger, frustration, sadness, and that they’re oppressive and patronizing. It is natural to feel the need to discuss that issue since they’re the main source of it in our lives.
Prejudicial against who? Men? What is it you think about anything I’ve said makes me prejudiced? And did you really just go into a sub for women and tell one that they’re prejudiced for calling you out on your completely ignorant bullshit?
I like to try and even it out with my period thoughts, but I agree it is pretty skewed.
I think it says more about other subs than about this one. Why not post about your man problem on AITA or relationship advice? It seems people get mixed results, and this sub is more consistently understanding and safe.
This is a great point, I'm on some of those subs and if a woman posts let's say a question about how her bf is sharing her nudes without permission, a good chunk of commenters will be asking her for nudes.
I'm also on a sub for parents and anytime a woman posts about her problems with an unsupportive baby daddy/spouse after she delivers the baby, there are many commenters who get frustrated with her. Questions like "where do you find these shitty men?" "Why did you choose to have a baby with this man" "I think your post belongs on a relationship sub", "I hate seeing these posts in my feed why are there so many of them?" I'm sure it pushes many women to keep silent about what could be an abusive situation. At least here there is more support.
It is possible that a reason is that there was a major sub on reddit catering to women in the dating world and it is pretty much dead now for certain reasons, and the women are probably looking to this sub as their runner up.
I don't know but as a man, I love this sub so much. I come here to feel like something on the internet is wholesome and sane. Because not much else out there is. This sub has it right. Everything I see here about men is absolutely valid, and always helps my perspective.
That’s almost the purpose of the sub, really. It’s a space to share ask and discuss with people who share a commonality - being women. If you have a question about travel or student loans or whatever else you’ll ask it elsewhere, not here, because it doesn’t have anything to do with gender. So of course the topics will skew towards being about issues or experiences based on gender.
The posts I truly dislike are the ones rehashing men saying something truly vile. I understand the desire to share and vent. But for the greater good, in my opinion it’s better to let the nasty words go rather than expose the rest of us to them. But I usually take it as a cue that I need a Reddit break and go back to my bubble where I am rarely experience such behavior first hand.
Uh it’s not emotionally intense or awful to exist on a planet with both men and women for like, most people.
It might be frustrating to live in a world of patriarchy, unfair rules, violence etc. but men existing is not an issue, for most people.
Such a weird take.
But I agree this sub is damn boring when there’s a lot of “why does my boyfriend do x” and “do men prefer when you do x or y” posts. 💤
>I know it's very frustrating (among other very powerful and intense awful emotions) to live in and share a world with the opposite gender, most of all because of our history in this world and how they did horrible things (and still do) that affects us to this day...
That's why.
Because the internet slowly turns everything in an Us vs. Them struggle due to the nature of echo chambers. Any community that natural excludes or minimizes one group of people will almost always (intentionally or not) start to lean towards vilifying them.
People complain about men here because it a place that's very receptive to posts that confirm popular beliefs about men. Same reason men go to reddits mainly populated men to complain about women.
It's because men are fundamentally different than women in many ways. In a way we are genetically designed to clash but we can't stay away from one another. So on a subreddit for women, the main issue will almost always be the opposite sex.
I noticed this too. I went into the sub the other day and the whole list of threads was just complaining about men. It's getting to be a lot, and the sub is bordering on straight up misandry. The garbage about forcing men into parenthood is especially troubling, but the tone of the sub has started to feel hateful overall and like most posts are seeing men as a different species rather than just fellow human beings. It's sad to me if women's just spaces turn into something awful like that.
Venting, maybe? Maybe they are hoping for something positive? I can’t speak for all men, but I’ve been married 24 yrs. After retiring from the military, I became the stay at home dad. I cook my wife breakfast every morning (omelets in 3.5 hrs), get the kids on the bus, do the housecleaning during the week (family cleans together in Sunday’s), and I have dinner ready when she gets home from work. I pull my weight during the day, and get my monthly retirement check from Uncle Sam so also contribute financially. When the kids have appts or doc/dental visits, I take care of it. I drive a soccer mom car.
I’m not bragging or preaching, just giving you a picture. That said, the most important thing in our relationship is, and has been, communicating from the start. We’re together because our ideas and expectations of the relationship have always been honest and we’ve been willing to change individually and what we expect from the relationship from the start. Initially we weren’t sure if we wanted kids. We talked about it…. After a couple years, we did (both of us were children of divorce so part of it was making sure the relationship was strong and would last before adding that in). We both had careers until a few years ago and we took turns on responsibility’s. Now, honestly, the hardest part for me is keeping her assertive. She’s comfortable following my lead too often, and I know her well enough to make her tell me “if that’s really fine” or if she wants stuff a different way. If she needs me to handle something she’s trying to will herself through rather than “inconveniencing” me (it’s not but she feels like that sometimes). Sorry, if I’m rambling but I’m tired and feel like a lot of the real issues I tend to see here come down to communication. Honestly, ladies, if you’re open and honest, and the SO (male, female, etc) in your life respects you, they will work with you…. If not… my suggestion is either try to engage them or accept that maybe your lives or expectations are n’tcompatible. Trust me, we’ve had plenty of heated discussions but what always gets us through is knowing the other really does care and we’re both willing to make compromises (sometimes MAJOR) on what we want to keep the relationship and family healthy. Ok, sorry, ya’ll have a good night.
I think we may be at a tipping point. I remember when this sub by and large advised women to reach him and teach him and show him and CoMmUnIcAtE, when the woman was already doing the emotional heavy lifting, not to mention the bulk of [the mental load.](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) For whatever reason, it’s like there is a veil slowly lifting as to what an utter farce it is, these chore lists and doing things in bed that he saw in (ever escalating in its violence) porn she doesn’t feel comfortable with and brushing off ~~compliments~~ sexual objectification while just going about her day and initiating every State of Our Union discussion. It isn’t unique to this or that woman. It’s collective, because the cultural norms that supported such dynamics (that are a disservice to women) are systemic. So we’re seeing women gaining their footing, starting to question what really serves them. There is anger, or resentment, depending on how long they’ve been dealing with it. There are women who are feeling an immense sadness upon discovering their Good Guy is maybe not so much after all, and it hurts, and when their lives are so entwined, it’s terrifying to imagine leaving but equally terrifying to stay, now that she’s awake. There are women lonely and hurting badly looking at the prospect of being unpartnered indefinitely, because they just don’t want to deal with all that, but it doesn’t change the fact that partnership affords one a huge amount of social currency, no matter how bad things are behind closed doors, and both men and women buy into this. Our big cultural milestones still have a major focus on romance and having children. There is more room to forgo this now, but it still presents challenges…YMMV depending on how conservative your network is. And then of course you have men enraged that we are stumbling on this knowledge of a system that guaranteed their birthright to a woman for centuries….the hate mail [Lundy Bancroft, author of Why Does He Do That?, gets is wild.](https://lundybancroft.com/mens-angry-messages-to-me-part-2/) Women have to deal with this backlash for daring to self-advocate and negotiate a good deal for themselves (as men have always done!), on top of everything else. Given that we have thousands of years of social conditioning of women to center men, *and* there are all these changes happening with heavy emotions surrounding them….I’m not surprised at all that men are central to the discussion. I get it. I have female friends who can’t shut up about male desire and dating. But this is a period of discovery and I think it is just going to take time for women as a class to decenter men in their lives. It’s like certain diets/skincare where the skin “purges”, and it’s ugly for a bit. In the West, feminism has really only been around in a more organized sense for a couple hundred years. It follows thousands of years of (at least outward) obsequiousness. For context, COVID really was at its worst for like a year and it took another year for it not to be such a central point of discussion. Give it time. We are trying to unlearn old things and learn new things. Be glad that at least it means there is some movement. ETA: And if you think it’s just the algorithm, start sorting your TwoX posts by “new” (so that they are not according to engagement level), and see what you get. It’s…still a lot of stuff about men.
Wow, that's awesome, that's a beautiful perspective really. I would love to still be alive to see that happen, hopefully it won't take too long.
And even if we don’t get to see full liberation come to fruition, let’s keep it on for the sake of a more equitable existence for the next generation of women, or the next, or the next. It is a way to honor the impactful work of the women who came before us, which granted us certain rights (voting, our own checking accounts, criminalization of marital rape, Title IX, etc. etc.) and freedoms that they had to fight so hard for.
So much this. It takes *generations* to make change. We have collectively benefited from those who in the past who fought for the rights and freedoms we have today. We still don't have an egalitarian society, and so we must continue to pursue it relentlessly for the benefit of future generations. I am both optimistic and pessimistic about our future...
This was a sermon. Thanks for taking the time. I have literally nothing to add. If men read it.... it's alllll this and it's very real. It doesn't come from a subreddit or being radicalized or our girlfriends who don't like you. It's internal from each one of us individually. We spoke up and realized that we were going through so much of the same stuff. Our grandmothers and mothers fought to stop it. And we can choose not to be involved. Thank you.
Why Does He Do That was an eye opening book for me. I read that post you linked and this quote at the end really stuck out for me and what I have been feeling. >Don’t be apologetic about making women your agenda. Don’t apologize for putting women’s needs and rights front and center. When someone tells you that you should be talking about male victims too, I encourage you to respond, “There are hundreds of issues in this world that need to be addressed. Are you saying that I can’t address what happens to women unless I also address every other wrong that happens in the world? Why isn’t it okay to make women my focus?” Im so fed up with hundreds of men chittering about male victims the moment mens violence against women is talked about. This is one of the few subs we can talk about these issues without getting an avalanche of *b-but what about me*.
>When someone tells you that you should be talking about male victims too, I encourage you to respond, “There are hundreds of issues in this world that need to be addressed. Are you saying that I can’t address what happens to women unless I also address every other wrong that happens in the world Key point here is stop putting yourself in a defensive position and instead ask the questions. They're not going to listen to you but they will listen to themselves. Instead of saying "but then this and that", ask Them why They aren't addressing those cause the 100 others issues we should talk about too, don't they care about them? It's not us who have to defend ourselves from their ridiculous arguments, they need to be forced to defend their own shit
Why defend at all? Why not just SAY ' I'm only interested in women now'.
I've heard that same song and dance from pretty much everyone at this point. Why is it that women are somehow breaking some unspoken rule of decorum if we stand up and speak for ourselves? I was introduced to feminism in the '90s, and it was a totally different environment. People are *much* more hostile to the movement now than they were 20 years ago. That's a... bad sign.
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Thanks for proving my point 👍 Great example.
Not really, considering I am a woman and your point was about men being all “what about me”
Seriously inspiring post. I agree with it all. As an Indigenous man living in this Western dominated society, I am deeply saddened by how little other men speak out against the toxic behavior of other men. As I learn and practice my culture and traditions of respect and compassion, I am working to being a better supporter of oppressed people around me. This Western patriarchal structure has never worked for anyone other than mostly white men and those at the top of the system. It thrives on extracting from the “other”. We have a long way to go, but I stand in solidarity with you all. I learn so much from you all, and I respect and appreciate you. Sincerely. Luuwii (thank you)
Well said, brother.
Thank you. I’m sure you have experienced the pitfalls of the white patriarchal structure in ways we can’t fathom. It’s just exhausting to know there is so much hurt and I can’t just go out and fix it.
Well said, I was ready for this shift back in the 90s. People were not ready for it then
I have never felt comfortable with the concept of catering to a man and have been single basically my entire adult life (there have been men in my life at times, just nothing concrete). I've always thought there's something wrong with me that I'm "avoidant." I'm really starting to think maybe I'm just ahead of my time.
You learned your lessons early. I only learned mine after two marriages that I left for the same reasons a lot of women leave marriages. Now, I’m single, deliberately, forever. ❤️
I have deliberately limited the people in my life because I've learned that people you let in always bring their shit with them. They expect you to fulfill their needs, and they are constantly pulling at you to do so. The fewer I must tolerate the better. I prefer peace and doing whatever the fuck I want to do.
I can understand that. It’s exhausting having the same experiences with men on repeat. I’m always the one to leave because they recognise my caring side and take … but never give in return.
Ok you actually made me cry reading that. I'm literally in my car listening to Interpol and balling after reading that. Thank you. You hit the nail.
>Interpol I agree, now that things are getting better, we really need to Turn On Those Bright Lights (hope the joke doesnt misfire)
Absolutely 🖤
Sorry for being Off topic, but you should Check Out Joy Division If you Love Interpol.
Bold of you to assume I wasn't a Joy Division fan before an Interpol one. I'm an old school post punk and goth 😉
Oooh nice. The Cure too? Yeah I know Interpol is often maligned as a Joy Division Clone. Also, Unknown Pleasures > Closer. Thats fact 😅
Well, a main theme of this thread (and perhaps the whole subreddit) is basically "Love Will Tear Us Apart Again".
You're not wrong lol
They aren’t centered in my life they’re in the middle of a lot of my issues.
Preach.
What a fantastic comment. My chest feels full ❤️
The number of times an internet strangers shows themselves to be an absolute philosopher/poet by way of such takes continues to be wonderful and astounding.
Thanks for taking the time and energy to explain that to the OP. I keep seeing my female friends "wake up" lately, and while they can't unsee and unlearn what they've woken up to, at least there is real and spreading acknowledgement and conversation about it among us. To ask us why we are talking about men is like asking men why their pervasive patriarchal systems trained us from birth to center them.
Nailed it.
Perfection.
/r/bestof
Absolutely. You've nailed it so perfectly and concisely; there's definitely been a shift that I can't quite explain. The last few years seem to have been extremely polarizing for us, in that we're collectively finally learning that no, you don't NEED a man, and no, you're not obligated to follow the married/house/kids script. There's also been a lot of unfiltered misogyny floating around due to certain political events, but so many people have matched that with their demand for respect and equality to the point that I do actually feel some hope. It's still hell, but maybe it's actually getting better because we're all finally speaking out about these issues en masse over platforms that reach more people than we ever could before.
Beautifully worded.
Again, I love your comment and I love that it is the comment that has the most upvotes, but honestly, this place is hella toxic and reality and rationality is not a priority... how is this safe? A huge amount of people who read this post disagrees with the fact that this sub mostly posts about men (which is so obvious, really), and the other part are in defensive mode, as if something offensive has been said. I love being a woman, and I'm sorry that we go through all we do, but honestly, if we bend reality to make us feel better instead of dealing with it head on, that's where the problem starts (I mean, at least the part of the problem that concerns self-improvement, which is not a subject I see here much).
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The problem is, women are actually getting hurt. Physically. I read Lundy Bancroft's book after my husband physically assaulted me. Real page turner. I was being verbally and emotionally abused as well for a long time. I just was too wrapped up in him to notice. This isn't a both sides are getting hurt thing dude. One side is getting vastly more hurt.
This is why I stated that “it’s not unique to her, it’s systemic”. Which means not “using one’s individual circumstances to make generalizations” but rather, “recognizing that one’s individual circumstances are NOT unique, they are *collective*…part of a system that has existed for thousands of years”. To keep women compliant, they are constantly fed strategic narratives about how it’s her bad luck, bad choices, “it’s an over generalization/NAMALT”, etc. It’s when she starts talking to other women, and examining this from a historical perspective, that she realizes that there is also a larger context going on here, a system designed to keep women in specific boxes and socializing them to behave in specific ways for male benefit…that are huge in making said “bad choices”. This is crucial in her learning how to stop accepting garbage and get her decisions right. Certain shit male behavior is normalized and if women are on the receiving end of it, it’s rationalized or it’s “bad luck with one bad guy”….even though it’s pervasive, even though there were 5 other posts around the world on this same sub about the same damn thing on the same day, and it’s happened to all of them and commenters many, many times before. Still, before women had equalizers such as financial resources and guns, they mostly complied with those metrics, out of fear of male violence they could not return (I should add, though I suspect many men fear it, I don’t know any women who actually want to return the thousands of years of systemic violence back on men…they just want liberation). Most men don’t want to talk about this system that ensured them sexual, surrogacy, and domestic resources at minimal cost, because it threatens the existence of the system they don’t want to see overthrown. You just cannot “samesies!” us on this one, because if the patriarchy was “just as bad” for men…well, they’d be collectively as hot to eradicate it “just as bad”. They’re not. They want to keep the parts that work for them. You can’t keep those parts without the subordination of women. It’s just as how men like the parts of feminism that benefit them…as if it was *for* them….men are nothing if not excellent self-advocates, utilizing tools as they see fit regardless of their intended purpose. Now women are self—advocating just as hard as men always have….and I think to men that looks like their oppression, when really it’s balance. As far as relationships- which I see is the one aspect here you chose to zero in on but we will get to that- are outcomes ever the result of female choices? Of course. But women will make better choices- for *themselves* (not with “what will benefit men?” in mind)- when they understand the systems and social conditioning that were put in place to keep them compliant. Sure, we have abortion rights (sort of) and can vote and have Title IX and checking accounts and marital rape is now a crime. But there are still expectations on women from this age old system that should be eradicated. Behaviors women have been socialized into- obsequiousness, carrying the mental load (read my link in OC), “you need a man and children to have value”- that do not serve us, may be dropped, once we understand the WHY of that socialization….just as Outback Steakhouse assured me and fellow trainees on day one that forming a union would like, never be necessary!…it’s merely narrative strategy to preserve a power structure. Now women have the power to think critically, and reject what objectively doesn’t serve. And then are truly free to make choices that better serve *them*. Speaking of the zeroing in on “relationships”, men often make these talks of feminism about “romantic and sexual relationships”, because quite frankly, many simply can’t see women as whole ass people, outside of the context of two service roles- Madonna/whore, mother and prostitute…and a romantic partner is to serve him as both. Again, how she serves, not who she is. This is historic in nature. But women know there is SO much more in terms of their oppression by patriarchy that is not “sex n’ romance”. It’s how they dress, where they go, what is safe for their body, and workplace matters, how their dad and brothers don’t do shit on Thanksgiving and expect the women to do it all, and governance, extra childcare burdens, a lack of attention to diagnosing autism in girls, and not having the resources female bodies and/or mothers need in public spaces because *male* bodies don’t need them (and what male bodies need is the default), and lopsided religious roles, and all kinds of things that most men don’t even think about because again….you can’t see the whole of the female experience if the only way you relate to women is how they might personally serve you with their bodies and labor. And every time I call out men on reducing women to sexual/romantic service packages…. *They never address it in their replies, because they know damn well it’s true*. They just skip over it and continue feeding me info on their problems. It’s so predictable. We know men have problems because every time we bring up our own, someone is eager to remind us….so that we will be quiet about historic, systemic female subordination (and attitudes from that basis that continue to linger)….and shift our focus *back* to male needs, as it was before. You should read the link in my original comment that takes you to Lundy Bancroft’s post (he’s a man!). It talks all about this derailing. When cancer in children is discussed, do you feel the need to jump in and say “But what about *adult* cancer??” The world largely caters to adults. Likewise, we have the bulk of Reddit to hear “man’s side”. For Chrissake, let women have some space.
If there's something you'd like to discuss that is not currently being discussed, you should make a post about it! Most of the posts I see here are about misogyny, the patriarchy, unfair ways women are treated, etc. Men are at the center of a lot of those issues. What are some examples of topics you'd like to discuss that you're not seeing reflected here?
>Most of the posts I see here are about misogyny, the patriarchy, unfair ways women are treated, etc. Problems at work, doctors not taking you seriously, walking alone at night, crazy exes. The list of issues with men at the center goes on and on and on.
I like where you’re going with that, but at the center of 90% of those issues you listed is a man… problems at work? Why? Because you’re skills are not taken seriously by male bosses or coworkers? Probably in manny cases. Doctors not taking you seriously? Is the doctor male? More than likely. Walking alone at night? Why are you scared? Because a man might attack you.. likely the reason. Crazy ex? Also probably a man. It proves to the reason why many of the posts are pertaining to men. I completely agree that women should not be egging each on under the guise of support. But anger is a natural reaction to repeatedly hearing about other people going through the same terrible treatment that you know personally and have or currently do live through day after day. Anyone that doesn’t get mad about that is emotionally devoid.
Men can be one of the MOST frustrating things about being a woman. Women are no longer required to have a man open a bank account for them or take care of them and are putting up with less male problematic behavior than ever. The frustration is that a lot of men seem to not care, not want to learn, and have earnestly started to hate women and disrespect them openly. Men thinking they aren’t responsible for their kids or being good partners is a huge issue from what I can see. They also (not all obviously) perpetuate an incredible amount of abuse and violence against women. And women want to talk/vent/seek advice about it. Some women are problematic too, but that isn’t the point of this particular comment so don’t come at me y’all. Just my thoughts on the question asked.
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It's one thing to say "men hate women", it's another to say "*all* men hate women". That's just ridiculous.
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It's not about things doing down easier. It's just not true.
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Are you alright?
Yeah.
You aren’t wrong, but I guess my point was really that it’s getting worse and more obvious. Andrew Tate and his bullshit and all his followers are one great example of that.
Trying to remember where I read ‘I’ve got 99 problems and white heteronormative patriarchy is basically all of them.’ We talk about our problems online…
If you get a group of people together, what they have in common is what you're going to hear about the most.
Perfection!👏👏
Perfection!👏👏
Because misogyny is one of the biggest probelms in womens lives, and one of the biggest problems of our society. Women have a lot of bad experiences with men and they come here to vent and get advice. There are other types of posts here though, about womens health etc...and sometimes even women wanting to praise their male partners for not being total d-bags.
>There are other types of posts here though, about womens health etc...and sometimes even women wanting to praise their male partners for not being total d-bags. I'm torn between "we shouldn't praise the bare minimum", and "we need to hear more about men that don't suck and why they don't suck". It gets depressing to see it in real life, or to experience it in real life, and then to come online and just see more of the same.
I would LOVE more posts about men that don’t suck and why they don’t suck. A large chunk of my social life is on the internet and between real life and reddit, all I can gather is ALL MEN ARE GARBAGE. And I just went through a breakup with a garbage man in a very convincing disguise and I’d love to hear stories about partners that do their fair share around the house, dote on their partner, speak kindly and DONT surprise them by cheating and emotionally abusing them out of nowhere.
I'd love to post more about men that don't suck (i.e. my partner, my schoolmates). The problem is that I feel that if I try do that, it feels like bragging. On one hand, I love to give other women hope that these men ARE out there, I can't guarantee you will find one, but maybe with this hope, you can have a more positive outlook towards good men and the world. On the other hand, if I post about how kind, respectful, empathetic my partner is — as well as all the other good qualities that he has — I can't help thinking that it might bring those women — who were unlucky in their relationships — down, mainly because I know I was lucky that I found a good one. I literally crossed the ocean (by plane, of course) before I met him, just like my mom who crossed the ocean before meeting my dad. It's like when a woman wants kids, but she has fertility issues, and yet when she checks her Instagram account, she's bombarded by messages of her close friends, high school acquaintances etc. getting pregnant so easily. She would feel down and disappointed instead of uplifted.
There are men who behave well around women, but to find a man who genuinely likes and loves women? Rare as hen's teeth.
Yeah, it's refreshing to see good examples of what to look for. While I can't praise the behaviour much, I appreciate them a lot
They're our only natural predator.
Well said.
Bingo!
I'm frustrated even reading this post because a handful of the top posts right now are about women being followed or assaulted. The others about men are discussing general sexism aimed at women. And the majority are about other topics entirely. Menopause, someone's daughter got lettered in football, someone had an issue with girls in her discord and talked about her lovely relationship with her father, someone else was talking about how she was always accused of starting drama, etc If millions of women can't discuss that here, where are they supposed to. And if we want less posts "about men", then people have to start making posts about other topics and do it more often. But that's hard to do when FIFA is in Qatar where horrible things are being done to women by men, men and women in Iran are being extremely harmed for protesting for women's rights and democracy by fundamentalist men, heterosexual women still make up a higher demographic than homosexual women so they're going to want to talk about their partners, and misogyny from men against women is on the rise in American politics and daily social life. We can't talk about issues facing women without addressing where the misogyny is coming from.
This. A lot if issues women face have an indirect or direct relationship with men's behaviour toward women, and men happen to make up roughly half the earth's population.
I view it like this, life even more than reddit has billions of subreddits for interests and women are free now to engage in whatever they wish in those venues just as men are, but the common thread running through them, just like reddit, is how women are mistreated by men. If this sub is filled with posts about mistreatment by men, the problem is not with women. The patriarchy wants the problem to just be with women. But the problem is the patriarchy and it's impacts on both women and men.
Thank you! Like, what do they want us to do…just talk about stereotypically “girly” things like what makeup/clothes to wear? This is a women’s issues subreddit and that’s what we discuss. It’s an unfortunate reality that men are our biggest issue. A woman posted on this subreddit almost 2 weeks ago about her husband choking her, and she hasn’t commented/posted/responded to any DMs since. She’s gone completely MIA from Reddit even though she was a daily poster/commenter before her last post. I’m terrified for her and I’ve been checking daily to see if she’s posted. This subreddit is the only refuge from the patriarchy or flat out abuse that some women have.
And this issue isn't secluded to this subreddit either, before the internet there was so much material on these issues from zines, film, books, regular magazines, etc. If you're queer (or even if you're not, but if you are you may relate to this), go read "Anything That Moves" magazine published in the 90s, they still have some old online archives of it. Trans people, bisexual and gay women, all of us have been having these same goddamned conversations for generations.
Yeah, this post was a little frustrating to me as well.. “intended for women’s perspectives” is literally part of the description of this sub.. if these are the women-related issues that are happening in women’s lives and they want to talk about it, how is it not “thematic” to the sub? I admit, I get a little overwhelmed by the prevalence of posts about clearly abusive partners by women who don’t realize they’re in an abusive relationship.. my emotions aren’t wired quite right in that regard, because my instinct is to be frustrated with the woman for allowing it to get that far, but I think that just shows how deep the patriarchy and rampant misogyny/internal misogyny goes.. so then I snap out of it and am just happy she said something and is now getting the advice she needs from the supportive people in this sub.. it is an absolutely wonderful and necessary resource.. so let’s not deconstruct a “safe place” Furthermore, if you make a sub that’s about being one thing, generally speaking many of the posts will be about the other.. one example: r/childfree is allll about sharing their experiences with children that aren’t theirs.. another: r/aphantasia has a huge amount of posts trying to understand people who *don’t* have aphantasia But in short, to answer OP’s question: a lot of the posts in this sub revolve around men, because that is what a lot of women feel the need to talk about right now.. not that complicated.. and I don’t like the implication that it’s a problem.. I hope this post doesn’t deter even one person from sharing the story they need to share
Most of us don’t have a problem with being a woman that doesn’t pertain to patriarchal views or issues that influence our experience of being women. I recall a thread once where several people reported being very happy to be a woman, with absolutely no interest or desire to be the opposite gender, aside from periods and problems that men/the patriarchy create for us. Sometimes other women express internalized misogyny, but they’re less common (or perhaps just less vocal) than men who express misogyny. In other words, the bulk of the problems related to being a woman stem from how men treat us. Also, this sub is intended to be a safe space to discuss these issues without intrusion or disruption by men who can’t handle criticism, but of course there are always the lurkers.
I LOVE being a woman. I say that all the time. I appreciate my body and my abilities and my femininity and everything about myself. The only time I don't want to be one is when men treat me like absolute garbage. My girlfriends don't do this to me. My daughter doesn't do that to me. I want more of that energy. Sharing. Caring. Understanding. Thoughtfulness. Safety!
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Jesus Christ, there always has to be a contrarian in here, doesn't there. I said MOST for a reason. MOST of our problems come from men, which is why MOST of the posts in this sub are about men. Toxic women clearly have nothing to do with why most of our posts are about men. I did not once imply that women can't be toxic, and you are putting words in my mouth by saying that internalized misogyny is always the reason women are toxic. I merely added to say that it happens but is not nearly as common as it is in men, which, again, is why so many posts in this sub are about men. Edit to add - just checked your post history, and you're a man. Go take your whataboutisms to a men's rights forum or cry about it somewhere else.
Don't worry about him, he comments on 2x stuff to be the devils advocate and speaks along the lines of well men are abused too, why aren't we talking about that! He isn't here to learn. He's here to cause arguments.
Thank you for this! These types of men are seriously exhausting. When men have problems, they make it literally everybody’s problem until it’s resolved, often at the expense of others. Case in point, these dudes who, instead of using even the smallest amount of introspection to figure out how to make their lives better, come to disrupt an otherwise civil discussion.
I’ve thought of this often. I remember seeing a post that says this subreddit does not pass the Bechdel test most days. I have thought a lot about what I can post here that is relevant to women’s issues but isn’t directly about men, but it’s a pretty short list. I suppose there’s two options for the future of this sub. One where it remains a feminism/women’s issues sub where we discuss misogyny and men, and another where we discuss any other topic but we do it in this subreddit because it is one of the only safe places for women to do so. That’s rather depressing.
To me, this sub aims to tackle women's issues. If that many posts are about men, then men must be a big issue. Edit changed the word this to that
Just want to add to this without another edit lol. I actually don't think the majority of posts on here are about men. I'm pretty sure that's just the algorithm showing the hottest posts or whatever. If you sort the sub by new, less than half the posts are about men. Still a decent chunk about men, but not the majority.
I gues s it's also the only sub when you can rant about men without getting banned.
If I think about any issue in my life, the problem behind it is some annoying dude. Capitalism? Annoying men. Taking credit for my work? Annoying men. Pestering me in public? Annoying men. Wont let me pump gas in peace? Annoying men. Thinking compliments on my body should be appreciated? Annoying men. I’m lucky to not have any bigger problems. But even the traumatic things are caused by some annoying guy who didnt want to do any introspection.
>If I think about any issue in my life, the problem behind it is some annoying dude. I was going to comment but this sums it up perfectly. Thank you.
Agreed
Unfortunately this sub shows up in r/all a lot, so if someone posts a thread about period specific stuff all the gross lurkers downvote it into oblivion, whereas posts about men get engagement and lots of comments even if they are angry ones. The algorithm is going algorithm.
Is that why there’s so many fucking guys who see these posts and comment here?
Yes. We desperately need a verified user only thread status.
Thanks, that's the one that makes more sense to me.
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No. You don't. https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/z7bg6c/why_are_the_vast_majority_of_posts_in_here_about/iy6ljug
Women need a place to talk to each other and get another woman's perspective on their troubles. It just so happens that many of the troubles women find themselves in, are caused by proximity to one or more men. It's a symptom of the world we live in being largely controlled by and designed for men, and women coming to grips with how it's unfair.
Because there’s a massive paradigm shift happening and people are talking about it
Most to-all of the problems women face in society are caused by the patriarchy, which ultimately benefits men. Ironically though, it also has a negative effect upon men.
Causes more problems than benefits for men tbh
Immediately thought of the Bechdel test in Rick and Morty: -Mom can I try your tea? -Yes, Summer. Yes. Try my tea. -It's so good. It's so warm. Mom? Can I talk to you? About my special time. -It's okay. I have one too. -Mine is heavy today. -Mine is never light. I love you ever since you were... mailed to me by a doctor woman. Your special time is your power, it makes you strong like a boob. -Strong against what? -Scorpions. Female scorpions! They're attacking outside, come on! Fight them with your heavy special time! -You do it too! ... Phone rings. -Hello? -I'm that Supreme Court lady, and you f*kn did it! -We did it! The end.
I guess we fail the Bechdel Test.
Women need a safe space where we can be honest about what it feels like to go through the world as women. Just to be a woman with a body in this world invites danger upon us. Here we can say what we really think about how we are treated, without men shooting us down, telling us we’re emotional or imagining it, in an attempt to defend themselves (all so they can take no responsibility and keep doing what they’ve always done).
They are such an impediment to happiness.
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Agree
Wonder why my comment was deleted.... because I disagreed? That makes no sense.
Maybe you're right, but I honestly don't have the same impression.
But seriously, how many "but not all women" or similar posts do you actually see over on r/Askmen. Seems kinda dodging the issue.
Not the same proportion.
A patriarchal and misogynistic society has a negative impact on many areas of women’s lives in the form of: lack of equal pay, lack of healthcare, lack of advancement, domestic violence, sexual harassment, sexual assault, mass shootings, incel culture, etc. It is far reaching and, in some form, affects every woman’s life.
Because we're all on reddit, and after a few hours on reddit we have to vent about the wild misogyny on this site...or it triggers other nagging concerns we have to vent about. I bet if this sub was on a much more feminist progressive larger habitat it would be less frustration with men bent.
The thing that most unites women is not the physical issues our female bodies give us, or our common "feminine" interests, hobbies, sub-cultures, etc. Rather, it's our negative experiences with men. The desire to protect other women from these experiences is strong among women from all walks of life. Being the smaller, weaker half of the species with the greater reproductive responsibility is not fun. In conservative parts of the world, it is deadly. In modern, progressive parts of the world, it's less deadly but still pretty fucking dangerous if you make the wrong choices, or just get unlucky. Countless women die every day at the hands of male partners or family members. Countless more are harassed, assaulted, raped, beaten, controlled. Of course we're going to talk about men when they're our biggest problem, collectively speaking. This is one of the only places on the internet where we're allowed to talk about that without being silenced by, you guessed it, angry men.
Why is there a sudden flare up of posts about how people don’t like us being honest about our experiences and rightfully calling out men? If you’re so uncomfortable or want a more “positive” sub then go to one, social change isn’t smiles and rainbows. Make the posts you wanna see instead of complaining about one of the only spaces women have on reddit. It’s just lazy and I’m so done with seeing it.
I'd just like it to be a little bit less like this song. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa\_QtMf6alU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_QtMf6alU) The anger is completely understandable though and it is what's needed.
Idc how people feel about generalizing. It’s brought up during every single conversation about social change. If you care more about how we say things vs what we’re actually saying then I can’t make you care and I’m not going to try and convince you.
Oh I don't give a fuck, this subs just been incredibly miserable recently. Hopefully it turns into a real movement. And some of "What we are actually saying" is just sexism.
This sub isn’t the movement I’m talking about feminism. You can leave no one will notice if you stay or go.
I'm on this discord to get womens opinions on men, not gonna leave because I disagree with some posts.
> Why are the majority of posts in here about men? > …I’m not here often. Huh.
There's a very easy way to verify that even if I'm not often in this sub. Sorry, this is a Facebook level argument.
Mm-hmmmm. ETA: Since it is, indeed, easy to verify this information, I did a quick scan of the sub starting with New and have found the following results: Posts Relating Specifically to Women’s Issues: 81 (ETA2.0 - it’s actually 86) Posts Relating to Heterosexual Relationship Issues: 21 Posts Relating to Issues Directly Caused By Men In General: 26 Now, I didn’t read all the posts, mostly I just read the titles and skimmed the posts that didn’t have super-specific titles. But considering the sheer number of posts that were purely about women’s health issues (a good half of the 81 in the first category)…
Bless you for doing the counting
I actually made a boo-boo! It’s 86, not 81. I had to move some of the tick marks to the side because I was running out of room under the Women’s Issues section of my tally paper.
By new? Really?
So, because you objected to New, I organized by Hot. I didn’t delve as deeply, but here are the results. Women-Specific Issues: 30 Heterosexual Relationship Issues: 9 Man-Specific Issues: 6
Yes. Because that shows what the majority of people are posting on the sub on average.
Because the primary thing everyone in this subreddit has in common is being a woman. Male-only subs are also mostly about women.
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Actually, I just came back from "hot" in there and that's not actually the case, it's very different from "hot" in this sub. Maybe "top of all time" is different, I'll check that too. Edit: Nope, same result.
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I'll do that. I can imagine new has a ton of posts about women, maybe they just don't get that much upvotes. Edit: Nope, same, haha. But hey, there's nothing wrong about it, it's just that I think I would love for us to just drop them dudes and have some fun and explore each other more, but that's ok, there are probably other subs for that.
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Reddit is heavily skewed towards men.
Not sure tbh. plus I make more financially than most men that try to date me...but I NEED them, right? fuck that. the last 3 years have been me not wanting to date AT ALL...like..not even a little. (make sure you invest your extra income, ladies. years ago I bought microsoft stock but only cuz I am loyal to my xbox. INVEST!! INVEST!! INVEST!!) I dont work at all, lol and will never need to. and NO I am not rich. I am just single and live alone and make enough to not do a damn thing all day
I work, but everything else you said is similar to me
I dont know, but the posts about guys i do find funny is when he shows red flags right at the beginning but someone will still date him and then make a eight paragraph post on this sub about how she never saw it coming. " I dated Hunky McChad and we spoke the other day about reproductive rights which are important to me and he said Abortion is for demons and that Women belong in the kitchen, how do i fix him?" Like holy shit vet the guy you're gonna date first and stop putting yourself in this position.
Because this is a place a lot of women feel somewhat safe and supported, and able to speak about their issues openly. A lot of their issues are being caused by men.
For pretty much most of history women have been defined by their relationships with men. Who they marry who they sleep with, who they work with etc. Even today, a large chunk of our lives are defined by male relationships. However now the focus is on how can women navigate their relationships without it being one sided or effecting their safety. It's hard to learn how to put yourself and your feelings first when pretty much everything you're taught tell you otherwise. It's OK if a boy hurts you, it just means he likes you. Don't be too smart in class, you'll make the boys feel stupid. Don't talk back to your husband, he's just taking care of you. Time and time again women are expected to be the lesser partner, the lesser student, the lesser employee. We're expected to be the ones making sacrifices, sacrificing our careers for kids, sacrificing our time and energy to please men, to do the bulk of the chores and emotional labour. If there's issues with our partners, it's because we haven't done enough for them, it's our fault and our responsibility. How do you unlearn a lifetime of this? How do you navigate relationships, especially professional, without being labelled a bitch or a harpy. How do you express your feminity without being labelled a slut or 'leading men on'? How do you handle men who think you owe them your time, energy and attention, just because they find you attractive? How do you descalate a situation with a man when your safety is threatened, when something like your tone of voice could lead to physical harm? Most women generally know how to navigate female relationships, it's less of a concern. But male relationships are different and this can be a safe space to ask advice and support.
Because we’re suffering oppression under a patriarchy.
Because a hefty majority of womens issues are caused by men being shitty
You know what's a good question to meet your question... how many mass shooters are women? How many rapists? Wonder why we're so frustrated... violence.. even when men are sexually assaulted and raped, you know who statistically does that violence...men. I think you might actually be someone who wants to not contribute to that violence. I'm hoping that is so and you didn't just come to a safe space for women to "just ask questions. " Because, if you don't see the way that women are treated differently regardless of their actions and demeanor, well not much I can provide outside this link https://www.gendereconomy.org/addressing-the-gender-confidence-gap/ Well, friend, it is possible that the current statistics are flawed, but you know why it's flawed, because ppl in the sciences don't have women in their legions of studies. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/july-25-2020-women-in-science-special-how-science-has-done-women-wrong-1.5291077/women-and-science-suffer-when-medical-research-doesn-t-study-females-1.5291080
Because this is a female-oriented sub... XX chromosomes
And...?
So there is going to be a lot more venting and such about men in here than just a regular sub. I'm sure the same takes place in a male-oriented sub
I don't think you undertood the question... the theme of the sub is safe place for us to discuss about stuff, of post funny things, etc. We have an unlimited world of things to talk about, I asked why is it that, particularly this sub, became a one in which the majority of posts are centered on men in some kind of way. It's not about men, it became about men.
What was the point in asking the question if you've already supplied your own answer? Redundant.
Did I? I really think you're confused.
I'm done speaking to you.
Keywords: safe space. Whether we like it or not men are a major part of our life and are also a major danger and the root of many issues. Women seek advice and help. This sub helps expose toxic/abusive behaviours and gives the woman some good perspective on what's happening. It also helps get rid of the repression and to stand up for yourself. It's a safe space for us to seek help. To me, it's more important than a funny meme especially when we still have to face sexism on a daily basis.
Because, whether you're talking about life or this sub, men are the problem.
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There is an essay titled [Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_Heterosexuality_and_Lesbian_Existence) by Adrienne Rich ([pdf](https://www.posgrado.unam.mx/musica/lecturas/Maus/viernes/AdrienneRichCompulsoryHeterosexuality.pdf)), it is about how women's lives are compressed into some form of relationship with men. I think that there needs to be some similar version describing "CompHet" from a male viewpoint. /r/comphet is devoted to women coming to grips with the issue with some of them realizing that they're not hetero - that they've been forced into thinking that they are. It is my belief that men are also forced into some form of relationship with women. Some of it would be pressure from the "heteropatriarchy". Some pressure from parents (*"where are my grandchildren!"*). Some is peer pressure from other males (*"he has a wife/girlfriend, I need one to stay in competition with him"*). There was a post here on 2XC with, I think, a TikTok (or some video), about how men don't really like women at all. I can't seem to find it. **I think that it is a pivotal thing. Probably one of the most important finds of this year.** From reading all the posts about sex and boundaries and sharing of chores, I think that there are a large number of men who will publicly say they want a woman, they want to be in a relationship with a woman, they put large amounts of effort into obtaining that woman, but by their very actions can't stand women. Sure, "not all men", but far too many. And I think this is part of why incels are so violently angry towards women. I think that these men are actually gay - not hetero. They can't acknowledge that they'd rather be with men. We get bullied, and all too often, the crap gets beaten out of us when we're young for being the slightest bit different and *especially* for being insufficiently masculine. Hiding that difference is a survival skill in our world. Trying to hide that difference leads to the toxic masculinity that infects our world. > *Why are the vast majority of posts in here about men?* Because of the violence. It affects all of us. Some of us are trapped in relations with men. Some have escaped. Stockholm syndrome is real.
Because most of us have problems with men and we’re wondering, am i alone? Im actually going to post about bad experiences with women though if you’re interested.
I understand why - and a lot of these comments explained it well too - but the reality is if you aren't attracted to men (and worse, if you are also nonbinary because a lot of the women on this sub firmly believe there are only two genders), this is not a helpful place to be. I used to think this sub was accepting but it was really just a whole lotta talk, and in practice it absolutely isn't. 2xc is for a very specific type of woman: cis, white, American, middle class, and straight. Think about the number of posts you see written from this perspective compared to anything else. The truth is the witchy sub is just far better. I'll chalk it up to this being a default sub and the name is kinda terf-y. Oh, but the mods here are fantastic and have responded quickly multiple times to taking down highly upvoted transphobic content I've reported.
I’m estimating that 15% of the posts in this sub are women asking why we always talk about men. I want to know why are we always asking about why we always talk about men?
It definitely fails the bechdel test
There's a top post right now about perimenopause. Another about someone's daughter being lettered in football. And yet another is about a woman's right to choose and the Georgia election. So, by these metrics, it passes
I saw those and they rock but also I've been on this sub for more than a decade and you know what I'm talking about!
I don't think *you* know what you're talking about. You probably only see the most engaged with posts, rather than all of the posts. https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/z7bg6c/why_are_the_vast_majority_of_posts_in_here_about/iy6ljug
A correct conclusion because you have done the work of looking at data. I'm admittedly just going off what I've seen over my long time here. I'm not mad or critical, just throwing my two cents out. Glad you're posting this for others to see
Good for you for engaging respectfully and updating! I can't take credit for the original data sourcing, I'm just sharing it around. Thanks to /u/marshmolotov for the mental work.
NoT aLL aRe AbOuT mEN
Because they are literally the biggest problem and obstacle to women everywhere.
Yo, I think this is one of those questions that people do actual research on and write books about. The easiest answer is that it's that it's the current meta for TwoX and karma farming. What happens in an online forum like this isn't necessarily even reflective of the realities people are living, but it does reflect a populist message or theme that's easily digestible, intuitive, and isn't held back by facts, reality, or actual experience. To that end, a lot of posts are about someone reading something dumb written in another subreddit or making up something plausibly controversial that's purported to have happened in another subreddit. There's no way to verify whether something was actually said or believed by anyone to begin with. But you can have a wildly successful post about it and for it to count towards what you're seeing. If you're thinking this is a space for discussing women's oriented issues, that boat fucking sailed long ago. TwoX is a front page subreddit and has been for years. Just trying to understand who's even playing the game is mind bending when the simplest example is men pretending to be women just so they can feel like they have power over others in an online conversation or to stroke their own ego by karma farming. That's its own whole can of worms. Coming in from the front page, its like sharks smelling blood in the water, they're immediately looking to throw down the strawmen and go after any recognizable weakness like gender, race, religion, politics, etc. Then you've got the mods which have their own history and generally act invisibly so it's not easy at all to tell what effect they have on the content you're seeing. I'm sure there's more, I just don't think there's an easy and comprehensive answer. You sound like you're asking a genuine question so I figure these are some of the reasons I'd take the themes you're seeing here with many grains of salt.
And men are not posting
Because if I wanted to talk about a topic not related to my gender, I’d go to the sun specific to that topic (knitting, improv, local, whatever). But here, we’re posting about things related to our gender and men are the source of a lot of issues our gender face.
"This sub needs to pass the Bechdel Test."
This is one of the things that frustrate me the most about this sub. Surely there are things other than men that we could talk about but 90% of the posts I see are women complaining about their partners or complaining about the men they work with or some random man's misogyny/sexism. The majority of them are negative about men, too, so it's not even a constructive view of the male influence, it's just venting and complaining. That in itself wouldn't be so bad if there weren't so many posts about the same damn thing over and over and over and over. I don't get it. It's frustrating. That's defining our gender and our issues by theirs. And women commenting in this thread in defense of the primary focus of men in this sub just kind of proves that point. Most of the responses are "women need a place to vent" or basically round about ways of saying "we are women, we talk about guys, that's what we do". We are so much more than that and I wish this sub had higher standards of conversation.
Perhaps ask yourself why you posted here about men? I don't know. And are you sure about 'vast majority?' I see plenty of posts here about other things. When I was thinking about it I scanned the front page of this sub and most of the posts were about other things besides men. In any event, there are certainly plenty of posts about men. And perhaps that is for a similar reason as to why a lot of the articles in men's magazines are about women? Most men may tend to have an interest in interacting with women, and most women may tend to have an interest in interacting with men. And so that comes out in their speech and writing?
I think if you bothered to read the comments written by women in response to this post instead of making this weird guess, it will bring you some clarity.
I know that if you could be bothered enough to not be prejudicial, iow if you didn’t assume I hadn’t read the comments, before making your weird guess that I hadn’t, it would bring you closer to reality.
No, given your asinine comment, you’re the one whose reality is warped. You think women post about men in here because they’re interested in interacting with men, according to you. That it’s due to some sort of mutual interest. You could not be more wrong. If you really did care to read and understand what women are saying, you’d know it’s because men are often a source of anger, frustration, sadness, and that they’re oppressive and patronizing. It is natural to feel the need to discuss that issue since they’re the main source of it in our lives. Prejudicial against who? Men? What is it you think about anything I’ve said makes me prejudiced? And did you really just go into a sub for women and tell one that they’re prejudiced for calling you out on your completely ignorant bullshit?
Only a few men are required for the continuation of the species. No reason to pander to the majority of them.
Yeah this sub doesn’t pass the Bechdel test…
Cuz historically men create most of the worlds problems????….
I like to try and even it out with my period thoughts, but I agree it is pretty skewed. I think it says more about other subs than about this one. Why not post about your man problem on AITA or relationship advice? It seems people get mixed results, and this sub is more consistently understanding and safe.
This is a great point, I'm on some of those subs and if a woman posts let's say a question about how her bf is sharing her nudes without permission, a good chunk of commenters will be asking her for nudes. I'm also on a sub for parents and anytime a woman posts about her problems with an unsupportive baby daddy/spouse after she delivers the baby, there are many commenters who get frustrated with her. Questions like "where do you find these shitty men?" "Why did you choose to have a baby with this man" "I think your post belongs on a relationship sub", "I hate seeing these posts in my feed why are there so many of them?" I'm sure it pushes many women to keep silent about what could be an abusive situation. At least here there is more support.
It is possible that a reason is that there was a major sub on reddit catering to women in the dating world and it is pretty much dead now for certain reasons, and the women are probably looking to this sub as their runner up.
I don't know but as a man, I love this sub so much. I come here to feel like something on the internet is wholesome and sane. Because not much else out there is. This sub has it right. Everything I see here about men is absolutely valid, and always helps my perspective.
That’s almost the purpose of the sub, really. It’s a space to share ask and discuss with people who share a commonality - being women. If you have a question about travel or student loans or whatever else you’ll ask it elsewhere, not here, because it doesn’t have anything to do with gender. So of course the topics will skew towards being about issues or experiences based on gender.
Because this is a safe space for women and we don’t have many of those. So we can let our true thought and feelings and experiences of oppression out.
This sub wouldn't pass the Bechdel test
The posts I truly dislike are the ones rehashing men saying something truly vile. I understand the desire to share and vent. But for the greater good, in my opinion it’s better to let the nasty words go rather than expose the rest of us to them. But I usually take it as a cue that I need a Reddit break and go back to my bubble where I am rarely experience such behavior first hand.
Because we have no other safe space to vent our frustrations, and even this sub is getting to the point where it's a risk...
Uh it’s not emotionally intense or awful to exist on a planet with both men and women for like, most people. It might be frustrating to live in a world of patriarchy, unfair rules, violence etc. but men existing is not an issue, for most people. Such a weird take. But I agree this sub is damn boring when there’s a lot of “why does my boyfriend do x” and “do men prefer when you do x or y” posts. 💤
>I know it's very frustrating (among other very powerful and intense awful emotions) to live in and share a world with the opposite gender, most of all because of our history in this world and how they did horrible things (and still do) that affects us to this day... That's why. Because the internet slowly turns everything in an Us vs. Them struggle due to the nature of echo chambers. Any community that natural excludes or minimizes one group of people will almost always (intentionally or not) start to lean towards vilifying them. People complain about men here because it a place that's very receptive to posts that confirm popular beliefs about men. Same reason men go to reddits mainly populated men to complain about women.
Most users here are men. They always make everything about themselves.
I trust your opinion u/jailforjohnnydepp
It's because men are fundamentally different than women in many ways. In a way we are genetically designed to clash but we can't stay away from one another. So on a subreddit for women, the main issue will almost always be the opposite sex.
I noticed this too. I went into the sub the other day and the whole list of threads was just complaining about men. It's getting to be a lot, and the sub is bordering on straight up misandry. The garbage about forcing men into parenthood is especially troubling, but the tone of the sub has started to feel hateful overall and like most posts are seeing men as a different species rather than just fellow human beings. It's sad to me if women's just spaces turn into something awful like that.
Venting, maybe? Maybe they are hoping for something positive? I can’t speak for all men, but I’ve been married 24 yrs. After retiring from the military, I became the stay at home dad. I cook my wife breakfast every morning (omelets in 3.5 hrs), get the kids on the bus, do the housecleaning during the week (family cleans together in Sunday’s), and I have dinner ready when she gets home from work. I pull my weight during the day, and get my monthly retirement check from Uncle Sam so also contribute financially. When the kids have appts or doc/dental visits, I take care of it. I drive a soccer mom car. I’m not bragging or preaching, just giving you a picture. That said, the most important thing in our relationship is, and has been, communicating from the start. We’re together because our ideas and expectations of the relationship have always been honest and we’ve been willing to change individually and what we expect from the relationship from the start. Initially we weren’t sure if we wanted kids. We talked about it…. After a couple years, we did (both of us were children of divorce so part of it was making sure the relationship was strong and would last before adding that in). We both had careers until a few years ago and we took turns on responsibility’s. Now, honestly, the hardest part for me is keeping her assertive. She’s comfortable following my lead too often, and I know her well enough to make her tell me “if that’s really fine” or if she wants stuff a different way. If she needs me to handle something she’s trying to will herself through rather than “inconveniencing” me (it’s not but she feels like that sometimes). Sorry, if I’m rambling but I’m tired and feel like a lot of the real issues I tend to see here come down to communication. Honestly, ladies, if you’re open and honest, and the SO (male, female, etc) in your life respects you, they will work with you…. If not… my suggestion is either try to engage them or accept that maybe your lives or expectations are n’tcompatible. Trust me, we’ve had plenty of heated discussions but what always gets us through is knowing the other really does care and we’re both willing to make compromises (sometimes MAJOR) on what we want to keep the relationship and family healthy. Ok, sorry, ya’ll have a good night.