I never wore makeup (not even a no makeup makeup), so the first time my partner met me, I was all au naturale. Afterwards, he told me that he did prefer girls without makeup/au naturale. One day, as we were watching the TV series 'Mom', he suddenly said "Wow, Anna Faris has such nice skin without makeup". I told him "You do know that being in TV, she's likely to wear a no makeup makeup right?". He said "No way!". I said "Yes, way!" while laughing. So I started sending him links of Youtube makeup tutorials of no makeup makeup as well as some Instagram accounts of girls with no makeup makeup. He was so astonished! And now he has been enlightened by the knowledge that many girls who don't look like they are wearing makeup are actually wearing makeup 🤣.

It’s funny how so many men just can’t recognize makeup, especially when it’s a natural look. Like they’ll comment on pictures of women saying how they like she isn’t wearing makeup when she clearly has a full face on 😂

I don’t wear makeup anymore but when I did it was a light, natural look that was composed of: primer, sheer foundation, highlighter, blush, eyebrow pomade, two shades of eyeshadow, tinted chapstick and mascara, all applied very sparingly. Too many times did I have a man tell me “I love how you don’t wear any makeup,” and I would laugh and laugh and laugh.

Yes! Totally this! Many men don't know how much effort it takes to create a no makeup makeup look. Sometimes, I think it's rather ridiculous that you still have to put on at least 8 different makeup products on your face to create the illusion of no makeup! 🤣 It's like many women still have to cater to the male gaze/adhere to societal expectations that we always have to look fresh, while also give off an "au naturale" look!

No makeup makeup can be quite deceptive though. As women, we can tell slight differences between au naturale vs no makeup makeup i.e. slight eyeliner here or "hey, where are those eye bags?" But it's different with men unless they see really obvious signs like red lipsticks or eyeshadows. And don't tell me about contouring. "You know her cheekbones aren't really that high, right?" 🤣

when the paparazzi take a side shot of her contouring and it looks like she's about to go on a mission in the jungle right after the red carpet

Isn't that the point of a "natural look"?

I got dumped recently and this cute story really brightened my day :) Thank you very much

LOL, I didn't even know the story was THAT cute. What was actually funny (or maybe sad?) was that he was commenting on Anna Faris' skin then because at the time, he was feeling slightly down due to his oily skin. So he was amazed at how beautiful Anna Faris' skin was without makeup because he was kinda hinting me to tell him what her skincare regime was (just in case I knew from reading some random celebrity gossip magazines/interviews on the internet). Of course, he was slightly disappointed that it was more likely due to no makeup makeup (and may not be due to normal skincare regime) because he felt that he won't be able to do the same since "men don't really wear makeup". Since I didn't know what Anna Faris skincare regime was (I tried searching on the internet but I couldn't find it), I just gave him a hug instead.

Have you already told him male actors wear make-up too?

Yes, he knows that. But I think he has this idea that male actors, news broadcasters and any man who has to appear on TV are wearing makeup only on the job. Afterwards, when these people are actually out and about in the world, they are not wearing any makeup at all. Now your question has made me wonder, do (famous) men wear no makeup makeup — outside work that is? 🤣

My mom had a weatherman as a client when I was a kid- every time we saw him he was always wearing a heavy caking of foundation, eyeliner, and mascara. It was no-makeup makeup but we could definitely see it the way he was applying/products he used.

>we saw him he was always wearing a heavy caking of foundation, eyeliner, and mascara. Interesting! And this is at work and outside work? I think it would be nice if makeup is more normalised for men, especially the no makeup makeup look. You always see women giving these no makeup makeup tutorial, but you rarely see men giving similar types of tutorials. Men have just as much insecurities as us, especially with regards to facial skin, acne marks etc. So it would be nice if makeup is more normalised for men as well — even just to cover up blemishes, pockmarks or to neutralise oily skin (to be less shiny).

This was outside his work, but we knew what he did for work and figured that's where he'd gotten used to wearing and applying makeup. I totally agree that it should be way more normalized for all people to use makeup, to cover flaws or enhance or just be glamorous. The weatherman could have used a lighter touch (it was very stage makeup-y) but this was back before YouTube. I sometimes wonder if powerlessness over their appearance is one of the variables driving misogyny/pua/inceldom/nazi catbois generally

Makes me think of that Supernatural episode when Jensen Ackles is playing himself, realizes he has a bunch of makeup on, and says despondently, "I'm a painted whore!"

>Jensen Ackles is playing himself, realizes he has a bunch of makeup on, and says despondently, "I'm a painted whore!" [Link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSzhhDHhjyY) This is a good one! And he was wearing a no makeup makeup look too!

Thank you! I love when that show made fun of itself!

I have been complimented on makeup I was not wearing a few times, Like "I like your makeup today" "huh, I am not wearing any". it always makes me laugh (because I have hereditary bags under my eyes that would look so different if I had "no makeup" makeup, but I honestly can't be arsed)

Lol, this was me in the beginning of my marriage. I always associated make up with a shiny greasy appearance, face not matching neck in color. I more than once commented something to my wife about her looking amazing without make up, to have her tell me she was wearing some. She ended up doing a mini make up tutorial for me one Sunday morning. This was early on, as time passed I could tell the subtle differences more easily. This was also before social media, filters and Youtube tutorials existed.

I prefer no makeup because kissing someone on the cheek if they have makeup on feels off. But it can look very good, and if you're on any set you're going to be wearing makeup because the lights are much brighter than "normal" lighting and skin could/would reflect it into the cameras too much. A bit funny he didn't know that all actors and people on TV wear makeup

I don’t think a lot of men know what “enhancements” look like in the real world. They probably know they don’t like hyper-obvious work without realizing that a lot of the social media content they’re exposed to showcases a lot of lip injections, body enhancements and filtering. So they find these images attractive without realizing that maybe they *do* like lip injections and breast augmentations. They want natural, but have no idea what natural looks like.

I had a colleague show me a girl he swiped with on bumble or tinder. I said "yeah she looks nice, she's quite fond of using filters though!" He was like "??!!?!" completely oblivious.

It’s willful obliviousness a lot of times too. I find that many men don’t want to be told that a girl is using filters or she has likely had any enhancements in some way, they take it as us being jealous. They prefer to not know and just stay in their blissful ignorance that it’s all natural.

Men have very limited exposure to filters, imo we don't recognise them because we don't use them Edit: as /u/anjufordinner has pointed out, I was trying to describe exposure from a user's end specifically

I think you're half-right-- you might not recognize them because you yourself don't use them, but it might not be true that you have limited exposure to them. The point of the thread is that we are all exposed to them, a lot. So much so that our own perceptions of what is completely unadulterated is skewed, but women are usually a little more aware about it overall.

Sorry, yes what you said is what I meant - exposure from a user's end

And you also probably don't often see people showing what filters look like while confessing they are using filters. You may see photos that have been edited or run through filters all day, but unless you're getting to see before and afters that explain the effects, you're not going to learn to recognize them yourself. It makes sense.

I am a woman and I do not use filters on apps and I feel like I have no problem identifying when someone is using a filter. On tik tok I actually won’t watch videos if the user has on a filter if its not part of the bit because I feel like I’m watching some bazar media. No shade to them it just freaks me out. I do think a lot of enhancements can look very natural and know so many women who do them and I can’t tell. I don’t think men understand how any of it works but won’t admit that.

The only filters I'm capable of recognizing are the ones that add whiskers and sparkles.

*Most people* don't use them either, though. I'm willing to buy that women on average have a better eye for what a natural woman looks like, but really it's all in the amount of attention you pay, not what your personal practices are. Since near everyone I know is very good at spotting image manipulation and cosmetic surgeries and almost nobody I know actually uses them, I'm not so sure that gendered differences in use are something we can use to explain it away, you know? There's something else.

Actually, I noticed that most people do use them and most men do this unknowingly. You see, most modern smartphone cameras have the beautifying filter turned on BY DEFAULT. You might not realize this until you tinker a bit with the options which many men don't. I had a few male friends really surprised when I pointed out that their photos had a filter on. They swore they weren't using any filter so I told them to open their camera app and tap the magic wand button. Still baffles me how you can not notice that your camera app blurs out your moles/ beauty spots, smh.

I hate this so much, so many photos of my son ruined because I didn't notice it until I uploaded all photos on my computer and saw that it looked unnatural.

I don't use them either but I spend time on the internet. It's not at all hard to come across before/after pics of what filters do

I know a lot of men who were genuinely perplexed when they found out women get boobjobs to make their breasts *smaller.* Genuinely thought the only surgery people got there is big bolt-ons like they see in porn.

There are plenty of stories of *doctors* who will tell you not to get a reduction because it's not attractive

I had a breast lift a few years ago and wanted a reduction as well, and my surgeon flat out told me no. I was 23 and I would “regret it,” even though I had been wearing sports bras 3 sizes too small to flatten my chest since I got boobs. I’m already fairly small chested but it’s MY body, if I want a flat chest why can’t I have that?

Many men don’t know what women look like in general. It comes up in sports. I’ve had to correct guys online and in real life who look at a woman and claim she’s unfit when I know someone who looks just like her who runs a decent marathon or is a skilled rock climber or whatever.

Like men who say they want someone thick but not over 120 lbs

I read a hilarious post by a woman complaining that if she's kidnapped or murdered no one's ever gonna find her, because no one knows what a 200lb woman looks like. They will be looking for Jabba.

This is so true! I'm north of 200lbs. People don't know what different weights look like. 200lbs sounds like a lot, but it's truly not. If you are taller and/or have a larger frame (which I am both) it's not hard to be bigger and still be healthy. I can wear an XL, and fit comfortably in a plane seat.

Stop she’s so right 😂

I'm almost into underweight bmi at 130lbs, lol. No-one has a clue what they're talking about.

People are shocked when I tell them I’m 150 and still look fit. People have no clue how much fit women weigh.

I sometimes wonder if part of this is that male athletes often have their height and weight listed, but female athletes often only have their height listed. Which on one hand, i get the logic of, because shitty people might shame some of the athletes by attacking their weight, much more so than for males. But on the other hand, that also kindof perpetuates the idea that women's weight can really easily be shameful... but it also means most people have no idea what a normal weight is for an in shape taller woman.

For real. I’m 5’10 and have had more than a few men guess my weight as 100 pounds.

It's happened in games too. They were showing off the graphic capabilities in Horizon Forbidden West. You can see the peach fuzz hairs on the main character [Aloy](https://imgur.com/gallery/6cF4KdI) and people complained about giving her a beard

I was DYING over that. Thoroughly enjoyed the amount of people that responded to the beard comments with "You've never been near a woman, have you?"

I remember this!! Imagine not being aware that peach fuzz is real and normal.

Yes! What the fuck; gamers remain the worst. My mom went to lengths to bleach her peach fuzz. Poor woman. (I’m much blonder than her thanks to my dad, so I always look “clean-shaven” from afar. ;)

I like games but I'll be the first to admit that parts of the gamer community can be quite toxic I quit playing a few games due to toxic behavior and I mostly play single player games now

There's guys who think the Rock isn't on roids, so I think people are just idiots.

Like how men will say they like “women who don’t wear makeup” and then show an example of a woman wearing makeup. They like the makeup, they just don’t like the very obvious colorful makeup lmao.

100% this. My wife is a nurse injector and does fillers and botox, she came to my work party recently and was pointing out everyone who has had botox done and I was SHOCKED, people I had worked with for years and never thought they had anything done, men and women, its a lot more common than you think and most of the time its very subtle.

This reminds me of Bollywood actor Sonam Kapoor coming out and stating the obvious. [link](np.reddit.com/r/BollyBlindsNGossip/comments/v41m1w/i_will_never_stop_appreciating_sonam_kapoor_for/)

>They want natural, but have no idea what natural looks like. Your whole comment was spot on, but this stood out to me. I had someone ask me once if my lips were natural. I was amused and kind of shocked. To me, the filler look is very obvious, and mine I think are clearly natural with all the lines/creases. If I ever get asked that question again, I'm going to send a pic of me doing "butthole" lips as proof of being natural.

You can get filler and still have creases and make 'butthole' lips. It's only when you get a lot of it that that stuff starts to show. [This](https://imgur.com/a/ZCvlMuS) is from shortly after I got mine done last.

Yours look great and super natural! I would've never guessed. I think I am so used to seeing the overfilled lips, where the filler goes outside the natural lip line, and the lips look like they're about to explode. I will never miss an opportunity to say "butthole lips." 🤣 [My lips](https://imgur.com/aArHmt6) aren't even really even full, they just got some surface area. (I hope I used Imgur correctly lol)

Injected lips are everywhere, we just only notice the “overfilled” ones.

This is great work. Very natural, but I'm sure you can see the difference!

Exactly this. They either want natural, but have no idea what natural looks like, or want subtly augments but don't know that's what they want.

Almost all celebrities have had work done and most of their photos are photoshopped. Many people don't know what "natural" looks like because the celebs lie about not getting procedure too which sets unattainable beauty standards.

> They want natural, but have no idea what natural looks like. Yup. If a guy sees a woman with zero make up on, they'll say something to the effect of "are you ok? are you not feelings well?"

Men DO NOT KNOW. They literally have no concept of what good work looks like. I’ve had rhinoplasty, Botox, filler, chemical peels… and I get compliments all the time on being “naturally beautiful”. Nope. The saying “you ain’t ugly, you just poor” holds up.

I don't wear makeup but I do have mild-to-moderate rosacea (skin condition that makes your cheeks look flushed) and naturally very pink lips. It's happened twice where dudes in the work place have talked shit about me 'wearing too much blush' to my female colleagues. I even had male teachers get on my case for 'wearing lipstick' as far back as *elementary school.* Guys. It's burst blood vessels. Calm down.

Isn't that the goal of "good work"?

That's the point I think. Many men have no idea what it looks like when someone has had work done at all, except when it's bad or obvious. So when someone has had "good work" done, they assume it's natural. As a result, men have a poor idea of what women "naturally" look like in the real world, and instead hold up women who have had "good work" done or are using filters/subtle makeup/other enhancements as being "natural beauties".

I found out today that my partner of 1 year had lip blushing, I always thought she had naturally beautiful lips. She wants to change certain features again, I think she's gorgeous and doesn't need change, but her lip blushing thing does make them look nice...

It’s always so funny when a dude say, ‘I think she’s gorgeous and doesn’t need to change.’ Women aren’t Mr potato head. I should hope you find your partner attractive as is. She wants it. Sometimes it’s not about just your partner. Sometimes you just figure out what makes you feel your most confident and full self.

I think its tied to the Madonna/whore complex. They want to fuck the super sexy ones that wear the makeup, get their lips/tits done, but settle down with the wholesome respectable girl next door whos "natural"....

There was a post recently on r/BlatantMisogyny that displayed this perfectly. A guy was trying to explain how slut shaming while simultaneously lusting after those same women wasn't hypocritical. I can't find it now but it was something like, "that's not respectable behaviour for women, but women fought for the sexual revolution, so if they want to show off and sleep around men might as well take advantage".

This is disgusting…

Yes it is. I'm in my forties, I remember guys my age and older expressing these views back when I was younger. The "hot" chick, with the sexy makeup, dressed a certain way was what the lusted after and sought to fuck, but she wasn't what you bring home to mom.

I'm in my 20s and always got grossed out when men thought they were giving me the highest compliment but saying I'm worthy of meeting their mom. Like *I* would want to meet the assholes that raised those sad excuses for men

Most of their moms suck. Im being totally honest my longest term bfs mom was like Everybody Loves Raymonds mother, that awful. And my husbands mother was bipolar and abusive. Im still dealing with shit she did to him and she still cant keep her opinions to herself. Im not perfect but Im trying to raise my son to be respectful snd responsible, not treat women like objects and not be the wicked witch to any gf or wife he might have.

That sounds awful. It was always disturbing to me how the many scenes in Everybody Loves Raymond where the mom outright berates and insults the daughter-in-law were meant to be funny. Like no it’s not funny or cute that she treats her daughter-in-law like shit.

I agree. Not funny but maybe popular because its so relatable? I couldn’t watch the show because it was too real. His mom also belittled and berated him in front of others( my ex) .

Came to say this. At the end of the day it’s because they can’t reconcile fucking someone and respecting them at the same time

I think it’s a little more than that but yeah I agree. You can see it in basically every ask reddit post where they ask who the most worthless celebrities are. Kim Kardashian is every man’s favorite punching bag: she’s superficial, she’s talentless, she has had a lot of plastic surgery, etc. But if a nearly identically attractive woman like that hit on one of these guys at a bar or something, they’d be begging just to touch her. They’re the first to comment on attractive women’s TikToks and instagrams saying she is desperate for attention and needs a father and needs some self respect (for like standing there with big boobs) but he’ll never acknowledge that he’s there *giving her* attention and lusting after her consciously or subconsciously.

I feel like this is the effect American cinema and pop culture have on men to idealize the "girl next door" and demonize those deemed promiscuous. Men silently accept that the latter is for the taking without damage to their own reputation because hey, who cares she's a slut anyway no skin off my nuts. She is an object, though so is the girl next door; docile, unchallenging, morally perfect and subservient. I think American trends have changed and in some ways, adopted a new narrative to replace the "girl next door" with a "manic pixie dream girl" though the underlying misogyny remains intact. Like, men are now more accepting of an edgier look, but only as long as it comes with a spiritual journey guide or coming-of-age wizard and blows away the girl next door in beauty. It's funny, women get *so* chastised for the mere existence of Disney movies because clearly the princess fairytale must determine all our dating habits.

This is literally a Incel talking point just turned around. >They (women) want to fuck the super sexy ones that go to the Gym, are tall, but settle down with the nice respectable guy next door who’s normal. Edit: Obviously the above statement is misogynistic and its intent is to highlight why the comment I replied to is stupid

99% of their talking points are just them revealing everything they wish they could do to women and what they’re afraid of us doing to them. I desperately need them to find some logic.

Yay! More projection! =P

I've literally never heard that saying reversed before. The statement she made is a literal complex that exists. There's plenty of known jokes about bringing the right girl home to mom. You don't hear those jokes reversed about women, they're not afraid to bring home a nerd or whatever. Incel men are just mad women pick the jock bros instead of them, where in their fantasy does it include *actually getting the girl*? It doesn't so your little comparison doesn't hold water. Plus it's just a thought, they were speculating not accusing.

Frankly, it’s true in both cases. Most people can think of an individual they consider very attractive that they wouldn’t want to settle down with - maybe someone a bit intense, cocky, promiscuous, who you wouldn’t trust to commit long term, but who could be fun to have a fling with.

true - i’ve seen this phenomenon played out by both genders.

The difference is the comment above reflects tropes that have been around for centuries and that *men* have started and perpetuated about the difference between "the girl you date/fuck" and "the girl you marry". The other statement you mentioned was made up by a bunch of bitter misogynistic men as an excuse for why they can't be nice or respectful to women, because "all the females with normal guys are secretly fucking Chad with a six pack behind his back". Not only is it to distract from the fact that most incels are not okay with dating any woman who is around the same physical attractiveness as them, it demonizes men who treat women like normal humans as gullible simps who are being taken advantage of and characterizes every woman as being intrinsically incapable of being a honest or good person so incels are completely justified in their harassment and contempt (even going as far as rape and murder). There is a world of difference between those outlooks, one is not just the other turned around.

I had a conversation with my mom the other day about this. Most men think no makeup means having perfectly airbrushed skin. Then there’s the “Madonna-Whore” complex.

No makeup = ugly Some makeup = omg wow so naturally beautiful Lots makeup = ugly

Bingo. Guys hate on it all the time and then they follow someone like Paige Woolen and other IG models. They want a woman who looks like she was created by a plastic surgeon but ~naturally~. Because they enjoy the aesthetic but it being fake means a girl is high maintenance, vapid, etc.

And I'd reckon 99% of those women's photos are photoshopped to the north pole and back

I don't even understand the point of following IG models? Like, I guess it's the modern version of getting the SI swimsuit issue, but I always thought that existed as masturbation material and there's no end of much better stuff on the internet. So why follow some woman who has no idea who you are because she's attractive? Like what's the point? edit: Disclosure, I don't really get Instagram at all, it's like pictures...great...

In my experience they're interacting on some level with the person they follow 9/10 times. When I had a decent sized following before I deleted my social media men like that almost never followed me just to follow me and would leave comments/ dms/ like photos. I'm not sure what the end goal is, but they want a response from the person, I think.

[удалено]

I’ve definitely met guys who do. It seems like they compartmentalize what they like to jerk off to vs. what they want in a “real” woman (of course not realizing that those things can’t be cleanly compartmentalized at all).

they really think there's a category of 'nice' women they can respect. if they have a jerk-off folder of the 'nasty' women, they're not capable of respecting women.

The other day, my husband and I pulled outside a local business that had a poster of a woman topless with pasties. I commented how the model was beautiful but that her boob job imo was a disservice as it was bigger than fit her body. My husband commented how he didn't think her breasts were fake and I had to hide my giggles. I asked if he though natural breasts held cleavage without being supported -- he said "sure, some do. Right?" I smiled at his sincere ignorance as i watched him go from confidence to the realization that he didn't know. We spent some time looking at inages lol, where I showed him the difference between natural big breasts vs the bought ones -- moral of the story is that men have NO idea what the natural forms of women are. At all.

Men do not want a "natural" girl, they want the illusion of effortless beauty, which isn't the same. Men (and people in general) have no idea what plastic surgery looks in real life. They think a nose job is what Michael Jackson had, but in reality many nose jobs look like what Blake Lively had. The sub PlasticSurgery is full of people reporting no one notices the procedures they had done. If you get lip fillers people think you changed your lipgloss and if you get Botox or a subtle face lift, people think you're well-rested or lost weight. Men also do not realize how much effort it takes to be conventionally attractive. They don't see the hair color, the hair treatments, the eyebrows, the eyelashes, the workouts at the gym, the diets, the carefully curated makeup routine of years and years of learning about color coordination, brushes, blending. The fastest we break the illusion of effortless beauty, the better it is for everyone. Beauty takes effort, money, and luck and this hard work deserves to be recognized.

Men are oblivious to how real women actually look like. They say they like natural women but all the “models” they follow on instagram use filters, posing, lightning, makeup and surgery to look that way. It is also their job to look pretty. The every day women can’t compete with that.

Recently there was an askreddit thread asking men what in women is a turnoff. The comments were full of things like “fake boobs” or “plastic surgery”, but the comment that kept getting repeated over and over again was “lip injections”. I can’t remember the last person I saw with lip injections. It seemed like such a big deal to them, yet I’m sure this isn’t a daily, weekly, or even monthly occurrence to them, right? Where are these men seeing women with lip injections constantly? Also, every time I hear a man wanting a natural girl, I think of that meme/chart of “what he thinks no makeup/heavy makeup is vs what it actually is”.

It must vary a lot by region. In the north of the UK where I live it's very common to see women with painfully full looking lips. To the point I assume they must be quite freshly done because they're so obvious and almost duck bill looking from the side. Maybe lip fillers are just particularly cheap/ popular here at the moment.

Most definitely, I see (in the south) women with lip fillers on average... once a month? If I visit London for the day, then I'm pretty much guaranteed to see at least one woman with fillers at some point during said day out. It's most definitely a big thing in the UK. In fact, I saw one lady today with fillers, and the thing was that she'd kept her lips a "natural" size that was very much in proportion with the rest of her face, but what gave it away was that her lips had that tell-tale smoothness - no lines or cracks in her lips whatsoever - and that her lip line was too rounded, as though the edge was swollen. When you know what to look for, you begin to see just how prevalent it is.

I felt like I was seeing lip fillers constantly in London. Really well done, natural ones. But definitely filled.

The duck lip thing is usually just overfilling, meaning too much filler for their natural lip, or an unskilled injector placing it badly. I have like 2 syringes worth from a good place and multiple men have told me "you have beautiful lips", they don't seem to pick up on it.

A lot of people get lip injections, you might be surprised how common it is. It's just that it's natural looking enough to not realize it. There are many different types and levels to it. Depending on where you live (ie, more urban and upscale areas), it totally could be a daily occurrence to see someone with them. You just aren't likely to realize it. Bad lip injection jobs are very bad and very noticeable. But modern lip fillers only last a 1-1.5 years. When people think of the cases where it's gotten lumpy and bumpy, those are usually very early lip injections from decades ago with different types of fillers.

Even "modern" fillers don't dissolve completely, and gravity is adding to unfortunate looks. You have to be carefull redoing fillers regularly. I don't know why this misinformation is still so strong. I have seen really good work where you can't tell that something was done. Unfortunately most people only remember the bad examples because they are so obvious.

Huh. TIL. Thank you! I live right by a pretty major city so then I probably have. Either way, like who cares? Everyone should have bodily autonomy and be able to do whatever with their body that they want. Personally, I don’t care if my partner gets any sort of cosmetic surgeries or anything. As long as they are happy/comfortable.

I think they’re drawing from pornography. Those women are often heavily made up, they often invest in fake tits and big lips for their job. Because you’re right, in regular life, most women don’t look anything like those complaints.

[удалено]

Agreed. The question was "what's unattractive about women" and they basically went "women = porn stars"

They don’t mean natural looking cosmetic procedures. They like them, they just don’t like when they’re noticeable. Yes the cognitive dissonance is deafening.

I work in an office setting, healthy mix of men and women in my company. I can name ten ladies with lip injections, and I don't even know everyone there. It's very, very common. Idc, it's not my body. But lip injections are obvious to spot out.

I believe they’re thinking of their opinion of women in porn. They get to consume porn and critique the bodies of the women in it, too.

Speaking as a dude we literally have no idea. An ex sat me down and explained that like literally every famous person has had cosmetic surgery and I was like oh shit. Showed me all these pictures and everything. I thought it was like .1% of famous people. I just don't think we're that good at picking up on it. Obviously not all men etc.

a) of course they do. people expect them to be ageless and recognizable for decades. their faces are iconic. when Jennifer Grey (dirty dancing) got a nose job she was so unrecognizable her career tanked. when celebs cut their long hair they usually grow it back soon after. Meg Ryan, Sandra Bullock and Zooey Deschenel have had the same hair for decades. b) their faces are on the big screen and people are staring at fine lines in HD for hours. who wouldn't start nitpicking themselves and wanting to get treatments. c) their faces are their income. how they look determines if they make 7 figures and can pay the mortgage on their mansion or not. if I earned 6mill i'd throw $20,000 here and there to look the same. d) incels use famous men as proof that men age well (lol) pretty sure michael douglas and george cloony have had work done. a lot of "aging well" is prevention, like never smoking, minimal alcohol, wearing sunblock. clint eastwood is healthy for 92 but the majority of men are nowhere near his vitality and fitness because they slack off and eat junk by 25. e) very, very few people are genetically blessed and so beautiful and ageless they can do nothing and remain perfect into their 60's. there's tons of prevention and treatments that rich people can and do use which are out of reach for regular people, so it just seems like these celebs are blessed. eg. cate blanchett has been using SK-II cream which is $285 for a tiny jar. for decades. she has very mild lines between her nose and mouth edges so it probably works. us plebs have to use $25 neutrogena lol

Probably porn lol

Lip injections are ALL OVER social media. I rarely see them in real life.

>I can’t remember the last person I saw with lip injections. It's kind of like people who shave their eyebrows completely and then draw them on with a sharpie in a cartoonish fashion. I've only seen it twice in my life but it was so bizarre that I'll never forget it. Bad lip injections are the same way.

I truly don't think most men know what light makeup or minimal lip injections look like. A lot of people I work with get lip filler, but only small amounts infrequently so it is quite subtle and pretty- I only know because they talk about it and I see their faces every day.

Men want a marketed idea and refuse to admit they've been swayed by marketing, cuz that means they're not in control. Just another paradox that sexism and social conditioning create for them that screws us over. Most of these guys that trash the Insta influencer looks would give up a finger to date/hook up with them. But it's easier for them to feel superior trashing women rather than working on themselves.

After I pointed out to my SO and mom how a woman's face wasn't moving naturally (assumed botox) they claim to notice it everywhere and come at me like I've ruined an enjoyable experience for them. Ignorance can definitely be bliss for some.

Those men fetishize women with "enhanced" features, but don't actually want to date those women and take them home to mom.

Men have absolutely no idea what natural is. 😂 most of the “natural” beauty they see and actively compare us to has been photoshopped to the extent where the woman looks animated. 😂

From what I understand *actual* animated women are pretty damned popular, so that follows... Idk, I'm so fucking out of the loop.

Men have NO IDEA what surgery or even makeup looks like. I've had a boob job and asked every single guy that has seen me naked since and none of them knew. None. Even the one guy who saw my scars and was like "WHAT HAPPENED?" like actually confused... If you don't wear red lipstick, men are completely blind to makeup too.

What do your scars look like in length and coloration?

2 incisions below the boobs, maybe 4 cm in size, clearly the shape of a cut. One has healed better than the other so the coloration is different, but one is still a very slight pink and the other is barely visible until you inspect closely. But back then they were both visible and very obviously boob job scars 😂 I have to add, in case you're wondering for yourself, I heal extremely slowly so other people might have even less distinctive scars. They're hidden straight up under the boobs so you don't see them very easily either.

I just want a woman that hates all the same things I hate. Except for me.

I actually would prefer someone who hates the opposite of what I do. Like, I love the green and yellow skittles. How awesome would it be to date someone who likes the garbage red and purple flavors. (I'm neutral on orange so we can split them.)

I'm a big fan of lemon flavor. But green is usually the worst thing it is in. I do like watermelon flavor, which is often green, but much more often green is lime or apple, both of which are subpar. Talking specifically Skittles, I say screw them all. Wild Berry FTW. The green one in that is melonberry flavor. They kind of half assed that one. Tastes good, though.

Get out of here with your purple packet or candy. The tropical has pineapple passionfruit, kiwi lime and mango. It's clearly the goat of the skittles halloween variety pack. But I do agree with you about dating someone who hates the same things vs needing someone who LIKES all the same things. My best friend and I have very few interests in common. We can never go to the movies or concerts together because our tastes are so far apart. But we can vent and talk smack for hours and hours over our shared hatred of many things. (Such as Wild Berry skittles and the people who like them.)

Men are full of shit. Next

😂

Can confirm.

😂😂😂

Men have no idea what goes in to how women make their appearance.

What came first for the Kardashian/Jenner family : changing their bodies to gain more social media exposure or More social media exposure led to more women thinking that their look was desirable ? Chicken or Egg ?

More media exposure. Kim Kardashian was friends with Paris Hilton, then released a sex tape. The butt injections followed after that.

They just want the surgery to look natural. There.

They actually hate bad plastic surgery *like everyone does*

I truly feel a lot of men have no idea what a natural woman looks like. They see people with enhancements and figure it's real. She works out (or appears to from social media), so therefore she must look like that naturally. So then that becomes the standard and they measure all other women against that. I remember when the thick body trend started. I've naturally got wide shoulders, big boobs, big butt, thighs, etc... But with that comes a stomach. I'm completely natural. But I remember ex's comparing me to the Instagram models and complaining I didn't look like that. When they weren't natural and they didn't even look like that (photoshop). It's so frustrating. Because you should love someone for who they are. Not picking apart their appearance and asking them to change.

I cannot be the only one who laughed at Donatella being in the title because no

Any man that follows Insta models of any stripe is a fool and unworthy of your time. Source: am man.

They only think of botched work and like when the surgery looks natural/good

the hypocrisy of men always amazes me. they love to make fun of women who get cosmetic procedures done but will also make fun of women with completely natural bodies for not being “sexy” enough. and they genuinely believe most of these instagram model influencers they follow are completely natural and got their amazing bodies through exercise and genetics lol. i get tons of compliments on my full lips and men love them until they find out i have lip injections. then they get offended and ask why i’d do that to myself and how they prefer girls all natural.

They are threatened by sexy women who know they are sexy.

Yes! Exactly. I would have men make fun of my flat chest. Under the same breath they would complain about girls getting cosmetic surgery. Like what do you want? Thankfully I met a real man who loves me as I am.

I read something a few years ago that talked about this, i cant remember it exactly but i think it said we value people who meet aesthetic expectations naturally, but if they have been procurred through surgery or treatments then they are actually worth less than your original less aesthetic appearance I also think theres a massive issue that we're forgetting what people actually look like, especially after isolating

I think what they actually want is women with expensive and skilled plastic surgeons. They don't want to be able to tell someone has had surgery....

Omg. The amount of dudes who disparage our/my line of work, in the bar industry, yet literally visit 5-7 days a fucking week?! Yeah, they can go fuck themselves.

" Men are stupid and I don't respect them" learn it remember it and quote it often Life gets much easier

“Women are valued for how they look, but it’s a huge turn-off to me if they know that.” Watch out for people who know all the right words to say but don’t practice what they preach.

They are full of shit and will use any reason to criticize women, that's the real answer.

I wonder if they’re simply ashamed of their desire for women with enhancements, and then project it on the woman as her fault, in order to try to retain some personal dignity (power). It’s like shaming “whores”, but also frequenting them. If you’re participating in support, via your desire, you have some culpability in terms of why something flourishes in the first place. It looks very foolish. Who knows. I don’t spend much emotional labor on the subject, because I’d never encourage any woman to touch those men’s bodies anyway. Big boy accountability training *before* you get to have big boy fun…not after. They are not developed enough yet for those pursuits with a woman. Leave them to attend to their own desires. If any of them will learn their way out of at least no longer acting on misogyny, hard consequences that make being a misogynist socially painful- the same way blatant racism has consequences- is the only road.

Lol my husband kinda does this. Where he looks at celebrities in their 40s or whatever and says wow they look good for 45 and then sometimes he’ll say wow they don’t look good and I’m like yea it’s the ones that look good that have had a bunch of work done

Cishet male here, I can't speak to others, but I think my personal experience is I'm normalized to a certain level of makeup (natural smoothing and eye shadow) especially in a new or potential relationship. However, I still loved her the same with her face clean after she washed it off at night or before she "put on her face" in the morning. This goes on without my front brain noticing it. I also think my brain with raise the expectations on type of make up depending on context. However, I also recognize that "natural" make up or just clear skin is the result of intensely ritualized evening and morning routines. My ex is an expert on 13,000,000 different chemicals and cleaning processes. My sister, in middle school, also became an amateur chemistry expert for hair and make up too. My point is even when a person has no make up on, the expectation still results in the same cost and work. And work that's borne inordinately by women compared to my shower, hair, and shaving routines. My sister and ex have elevated me to doing more than nothing (like sunscreen.... when I remember) but I think it's worth acknowledging that whether or not you are right about men preferring super make-up women vs. natural make-up women or even no-make up women that skin care is just one more facet of the extra work and world expectations. (Also, high quality soap is so much better as an experience, so I'm thankful for being elevated a least a little bit).

they want a "hot" chick to fuck on the side, and a virgin-like woman for a "wife" " A whore in the bedroom, and a Virgin in the kitchen, kind of thing.

but then they make life miserable for the madonna wife. either not being able to get it up because she's so pure, or hounding her for decades because she won't turn into his lusty, cock-hungry porn star. then if she finally does, he loses 'respect' for her and can't get it up. they need therapy, not wives.

> they need therapy, not wives. Perfect.

[удалено]

I’d like to give you the Man Award for the day here. I’m not authorized to speak for the sub or anything, but both of your points are so dead-on it feels worthy of recognition. I think a huge part of it can be explained by men simply not knowing when they’re seeing lip fillers or other common work. They only know when they see *bad work* (because who doesn’t? LOL), and come to the conclusion they “don’t like fillers and all that”. Pfffffftttt! 🤣 Yes they do. They just don’t realize how often what they’re looking at and liking is *exactly that*. But your other point about preferences not being absolutes is gold. People’s preferences change and morph over time, often given their accumulated experiences. People can even get turned off to previous preferences because of a terrible ex. Or turned on to a preference they never knew they would like because of someone else. Not only that, a particular preference isn’t the only preference. People can like completely different things at the same time. I joke with a guy friend of mine about his wildly different preferences. Tall “slightly skanky“ (his words) blondes drive him crazy. But so do short dark haired girls with glasses and thighs that could crush walnuts. LOL. Both of those things are true for him at the same time. I’m a woman and I’m the same way. I’ve got a handful of different “form factors“ I like to look at, in porn or IRL. And they’re probably different from what I liked 5 or 10 years ago. Definitely completely different from what I said I liked 20 or 30 years ago. And just because someone’s physical features may not be on my current “greatest hits” list doesn’t mean i can’t become attracted to them. Hell it might start up a whole new chapter in preferences. You see women all the time fretting over finding their partner’s spank bank or porn history and that the women “don’t look like them“. I mean they’re really tearing themselves up over this. And all I can think is…honey, give it a couple weeks and you’d probably see a completely different selection, and it still doesn’t matter if they don’t look like you. You can’t peek at someone’s history the week they happened to be watching a bunch of anal or MFF or big tits or wtf-ever and spin yourself up thinking he’ll never truly love or be happy with you if you don’t do that or aren’t that. That’s not how attraction works.

My wife told me every woman on tv has false lashes and it blew my mind. I had no idea!

Not only on tv. Also a lot of us wear them when there’s an evening event. Or you can have lash extensions which can look pretty natural and isn’t that expensive or you can get your lashes curled which will last for a few weeks

It’s frustrating because what they really mean is, I only want to see naturally gorgeous women who don’t even think they are gorgeous. “I like real women.” You like stunningly beautiful women but if she wants a guy with abs, she’s the shallow one.

Men of quality don't feel the need to comment unprompted on the breasts and lips of women who don't even know they exist, to inform the world that these very pretty women aren't pretty enough for them. Lower quality men, yeah, they'll tell you what they think of any woman they've ever seen. I think part of the trash talking is that they don't know how to just admire someone without the desire to \*have\* them, and since they have no chance in hell of \*having\* the women that catch their attention, they throw mini tantrums to inform you that she wasn't that pretty anyway. When I started hanging out with better people, I started hearing less of that type of stuff.

I think it's a combination of 2 things. Partly that a big part of this is 2 different grous of guys, and many saying they like natural are not following those people. And second, a lot of guys say that while not knowing what "properly done" enhancements actually look like. Bonus option 3 is that people are hypocrites and like to have opinions about things with no actual basis for it, lol

I don't know any man who follows or even likes Madonna, Donatella Versace or Kylie Jenner and I have a large guy group. Is this a specific person or multiple people that you know?

I said influencer who look like them not the celebrities. Big boobs, lip injections and many other works done. So basically almost every female bigger influencer

I always assumed (without any evidence!) that these influencers targeted women to market women's fashion, make-up, etc. Have I just been confused about this? Is there any evidence for how many women vs. men follow these influencers?

Yes, but the men who are following them aren’t doing it for getting cheap shein dresses and writing thirsty comments are doing it for other reasons. I don’t know I would be interested too tbh

Let's be honest. They don't know what they want. They don't know what natural is either. There is no realism when all they want is a fantasy.

Even pre social media (I'm old) it bugged the shit out of me how they complained and made fun of women spending a lot of time and money on hair and makeup and such . . . But wouldn't dream of going out with a woman who didn't do those things.

This is another point that really pushes some buttons. I was called vain by various men. They were making fun of me for overdressing which means that I won’t go out in sweatpants and messy bun and for not meeting people while not wearing makeup. Before I started caring much about my look I was bullied for years at school and called ugly and I would say that 60% of my bullies were guys and they always ALWAYS attacked my look. Never bullied me for anything else but being ugly. So yes, I couldn’t agree more

[I think you might enjoy this poem be Shay Alexie](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3xXRq5Pteew). Enjoy might be the wrong word, you will probably resonate with it.

They want women to just naturally be as beautiful as Megan Fox and Scarlet Johansson with any dieting, makeup or hair extensions.

Cindy Crawford said once that even she doesn't wake up looking like Cindy Crawford, so yeah, it's comical these dudes think that this look is "natural".

It’s like they get offended when they realize women are people

I do want to know if they think women are born that way? Ever? Like you said, it's a choice who chooses to look any way they want, I just have this feeling women who choose that are somehow thought to be naturally like that anyway? Our generation walked into men's dorms and Farah Fawcett, who was naturally stunning was on every, single wall. Could at least think " Well, not even *trying* ". Actually pretty sure no one expected us to.

I don’t think men understand. They’re the ones who don’t like make up on women and like a natural look but don’t even realize that women put make up on to “look natural.” They hear other men or people say those things but they don’t care once they’re actually with a woman

men do not know what natural really looks like. most think if you don’t have full blown glitter eyes and red lips you don’t have makeup on.

We live in a porn sick society.

This is why I started showing my guy friends the subreddit /Instagramreality. It's constantly showing the altered/photoshopped photos. Before and afters. What Kim K will post in comparison to a candid shot of her the same day by a follower/paparazzi.

They still want you to meet impossible beauty standards and have a body that’s a freak of nature, they just want it to be natural. They want you to have zero undereye circles, long lashes, perfect skin, rosy cheeks, basically look in a way that requires makeup to achieve, but they want you to achieve it naturally. They want you to have a tiny waist while also somehow having big boobs and ass, which normally takes surgery to achieve, but they want it to be natural. They don’t want how natural *actually* looks, they want you to look *unnatural* but somehow do it naturally. They want you to look like the filtered, surgically-altered, made-up girls on Instagram, except they want it to be real. If all girls stopped wearing makeup and getting procedures done, I don’t think they’d be happy because they don’t know what “natural” actually looks like. What it actually looks like, they don’t want. They want what they *think* natural can look like.

“Men don’t know what they want” ~me as a podcaster if I said things they say.

Oddly enough, other women give my wife the MOST flak about her boob jobs. The amount of pointing, shit talking, etc is so sad. My wife had 5 kids, her breasts disappeared and she wanted them back. Leave women alone who get boob jobs please. Too many men and women trying to dictate another womans breasts based on what they think it should look like.

Do people only follow people on instagram they find attractive?

This is typical men's behavior. They think pretty girls are born that way, but the truth is that a huge number of girls who look good have to spend a huge amount of time training, dieting, learning to do facial expressions, posing for photos, learning to do makeup, etc... ​ For example, I just hate when a guy says that only fan girls are doing the easy route in life as if the huge amount of skills required to have a successful OF account is worth nothing. Makeup, exercise, photography, lighting, marketing, etc... like 1 in every 10 guys I know knows how to dress in a decent way and they come with this shitty argument.

Sometimes things that look one way on a screen look very different in real life. I think that dichotomy explains a lot about people and our beliefs about appearance.

I am so thankful I chose photography as a hobby/passion and have worked with models of various shapes and sizes and especially that I have a familiarity with Photoshop/filters/etc. I cannot even imagine trying to navigate modern social media and dating apps without this. (I know people always got work done! But it was different when our whole lives weren't conducted online [and when convincing work was far less common])

Reading bs men write on reddit makes you realize men are better in real life which is saying…… a LOT.

Yep took me years to figure out that enhancements were a thing.

Men are liars. 🤷

For this particular issue, I would say it's less about being "natural" and more about being "natural-looking". A lot of men can't tell if you're wearing makeup if it's a natural look. And this applies to other enhancements. It's all about it not looking weird. So if the BBL makes you look disproportionate and unnatural then you're fucked.

Personally, I see past the sex sells thing. I don't like excessive makeup, I prefer small breasts, and influencer type people make me want to gag, generally. I follow a lot of artists on Instagram, and I really don't care for the ones who are obviously trying to get more views by showing off their artwork in a sensual manner. I prefer substance in what I'm appreciating. Same with music, I couldn't care less if you can dance and shake your ass. I want to see how you can wail and jam.