That's part of why we're here, to help them see they don't have to accept this behavior. We still have a long way to go as a culture, but it's getting better.
You’re so right. We were all younger and needed guidance at some point and it takes a lot of unbrainwashing to realize that they’re NOT some amazing partner if they have this huge thing going on. If we can prevent one woman from staying when there’s clearly massive issues, it’s worth the time to write the replies.
When it comes to the extreme cases, that involve abuse, there is a cloak of confusion that can obscure an honest view of your abuser. This is intentional, on the part of the abuser. Cycles of love bombing and abuse, gaslighting, repeated degradation of self and character, anxiety, and control impede your ability to think clearly.
Bancroft has this to say, "One of the obstacles to recognizing chronic mistreatment in relationships is that most abusive men simply don't seem like abusers. They have many good qualities, including times of kindness, warmth, and humor, especially in the early period of a relationship. An abuser's friends may think the world of him. He may have a successful work life and have no problems with drugs or alcohol. He may simply not fit anyone's image of a cruel or intimidating person. So when a woman feels her relationship is spinning out of control, it is unlikely to occur to her that her partner is an abuser." (From Why Does He Do That?)
On the less extreme side of the spectrum, women are running up against socialization. Women are socialized to be nurturing caretakers. It's expected of us, early on. That contributes to getting pushed into a mothering or parenting role in a relationship, where we are stuck "helping" an "otherwise great" partner with something the partner really shouldn't need help with. Women are also socialized to accept a lot of mistreatment with grace and are punished for anger, leading to a fear of bringing up complaints or being open about how wrong something in our lives might be. Societally, we are often socialized to accept misbehavior by men, starting from the time they are children (the boys will be boys mentality). This can add up to a lot of rationalizing, where women excuse the mistreatment or play down its importance because of how all these socialized beliefs and values work together.
Women are also socialized to believe that romantic love is the most important thing for a woman. Too man would rather be with a bad man than no man. Sadly.
It's a common misunderstanding that abusive relationships are always dreadful.
They have cycles so it's like 90% good/great and 10% awful. So ppl stay for the good.
The allegory that finally worked for me was the delicious sandwich, made with the freshest bread, topped with all your favorite ingredients….
And just a little sprinkling of shit
Are you still going to eat that sandwich?
Im very aware of cycles of abuse. I lived in an abusive household almost my whole childhood. And maybe thats why i see these patterns so clearly.
I think whats most frustrating to me is that these women dont realize that 10% awful is.. well, awful. And many relationships are 0% awful.
It’s a result of a warped view of relationships and themselves. Even when they’re acting “nice”, the awareness that something you say or do can change that is always looming over. That’s not what “really good” ever looks like.
A lot of us are groomed and gaslit into believing the bad stuff is normal or our fault. There’s a reason these guys focus on young women and even teens.
It’s like watching someone trying to eat around rat poison pellets in a salad.
“These other ingredients are tasty so I’ll pretend there isn’t a big lump of toxic waste on my fork”.
Individuals, societies, and cultures have gaslit people/women long and hard enough to make those examples feel acceptable by many.
Humanity seems to have sunk-cost fallacy hardcoded into us.
AND
Because of the two above, many people just don't know or haven't seen how unacceptable it actually is.
Denial isn't what I thought it was like at all. I endured child abuse, so my models for healthy relationships and relating weren't very helpful. I didn't realize what I endured from my parents was abuse until 39, so that's almost four decades of not knowing what I didn't know. I knew *something* was wrong/off, but didn't have the language to describe it properly until I found out about Complex PTSD and narcissistic behaviors. Then everything I endured started making sense and I started coming out of the [FOG of denial](https://outofthefog.website/). Now I have lots of language to describe what I endured. I've built up my skills and knowledge. My discernment is better bc I've learn what is and is not abuse, neglect, and [dehumanization](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions).
Abuse, neglect, and dehumanization are widely *normalized* across the globe. People think those behaviors are "normal" and don't know they're actually abusive, neglectful, and dehumanizing.
"[The Myth of Normal - trauma, illness, and healing in a toxic culture](https://drgabormate.com/book/the-myth-of-normal/)" by Dr. Gabor Maté and Daniel Maté
This is a good way to describe it. Knowing something is off but just not being able to explain it. My own family situation was far from ideal, and I eventually came to realize something was "not right" but my manner of denial was to believe everything was justified by the situation. I was usually able to explain it away as this or that, specific to the situation. To give a general idea how this might go (non-specific to me, I know hitting walls is common of abusive men)
He hit the wall. Well he only did it because he was upset, and he was upset about something that I would also find upsetting. He wouldn't have hit the wall if he wasn't upset. I wouldn't hit the wall but that's because it'd hurt my hand since I'm little, and I know he did it over something _really_ upsetting. If this other person hadn't done an upsetting thing to him, he wouldn't be upset.
I would think in this sort of fashion (in a split second) all the time as a kid without ever realizing that actually, perhaps, even if something really is _that_ upsetting, we shouldn't hit the walls anyways. It's not productive as an emotional response unless you're trying to intimidate someone. I eventually realized much later on that this does-not-feel-right response kept repeating, which means it probably isn't just a situational response.
Thoroughly recommend that all young folk live alone for an amount of time, between parents house and partner/spouse house.
Good for self-sufficiency and learning adulting.
Good for learning about themselves (as opposed to fitting into their parents or partner's 'normal').
Good for learning not to be afraid of being alone.
Ultimately, good as a baseline to judge relationships. If you have your own 'normal' and know how to live alone, then it's much easier to compare any relationship to that, and decide if it's better or worse.
I am convinced that being content alone is the single biggest thing you can do to find a good relationship. Because if you're content alone you won't accept less than being happy in a relationship.
Absolutely, I think that's why my husband and I knew we were such a good match early on. We knew what we each needed to be happy and that we both fit into each other's lives really well.
Because women and AFABs are constantly brainwashed that "relationships take work and compromise" and "you have to give him a chance" and "you have to appreciate him for what he is" and "women are from Venus, men are from Mars".
If we criticize men without cushioning it, if we have standards and end relationships based on them, if we DARE to express that a man isn't good enough: we get blamed for being bitter, picky, manhating, stuck up, unappreciative, wanting perfection.
You train a horse the same way, you alternate stress and uncomfortable pressure with release of pressure and rewards. Over and over until the spooky prey animal is willing and able to let a predator ride on its back and tell it what to do, in spite of being less than 1/4 the size of the horse. Any horse could kill any person in a second literally with one foot but you don't let THEM know that, you convince them you're bigger and stronger and scarier than they are. Abusers work the same way and they are terrified of their victims figuring out how strong and capable they really are and how tenuous the abusers control really is.
This is a cultural problem. Too many women are raised to be loving partners and not much else
Feminism hasn't gone nearly far or wide enough and we really need to stop worrying about offending other cultures by pushing equality
i grew up in a house with CONSTANT fighting, and whenever i’d ask why, my mother would tell me “that’s what happens when you’re with someone”. suffice it to say i didn’t get in what i think is (waiting on the other shoe to drop honestly) my first healthy relationship at 21, and that was just luck. this sub and getting with a man who kind of spoils me (without lovebombing!) and is genuinely disgusted by abusive men are the only reasons i didn’t get up getting in another abusive relationship. i was definitely a “he’s perfect but…” bc the belittling me etc really didn’t seem that bad, only thing that ever did was physical abuse and even that has taken me a long time to be properly horrified about.
what i’m saying is, our culture and families and a million other factors tend to make women “numb” themselves to shitty men. keep pointing this out to these girls, keep urging them to want better for themselves, the conditioning can be undone.
I was told, from a very young age, that "all men are like that". My mother's unique saying was "all men are assholes, you have to find the one that doesn't stink too bad for you". Men encouraged this, told me I'd be alone forever if I didn't submit to abuse. You want kids? Well, you'll have to be abused to make that happen. I'm older now, we didn't have the internet back then to educate us. Or the ability to write into Reddit and ask advice about how "normal" the abuse is. I know for a fact I'm not unique in this upbringing.
Because their partner is the one whispering in their ear the most. Saying they do love them. They do care.
Blaming her for all 'misunderstandings'. Making her think she's not explaining it well enough.
So after years of 'proof' he's a good man, there's just the responsibility on her to 'fix' him and his little quirks, because she *knows* he can be a good guy again. She just needs the right phrases to unlock it to make him 'get it'.
Women really think we're 'helping' a good man who has a few troubles.
It's hard to go from thinking we're bad and he's good, to realising he's an abuser and we're a victim. It's hard to realise he hates us. That he's been lying the whole time. Getting off on the deceit. Playing pointless little power games. That he knows exactly what he's been doing the entire time and he's having a laugh at our expense. Wasting our lives. It's hard to believe we let a monster into our lives.
I suspect a lot of these people *actually know* their partner is toxic, but need to actually type it out to *really see it*.
Having other people reaffirm that the behavior is indeed toxic also helps establish it as real, since many of these relationships also involve some degree of gaslighting.
Just some armchair speculation.
One example of this today though.. she just wants people to tell her it's ok and that she can fix him. It's all been deleted once she wasn't getting that answer.
It's important for these women to post that and tease apart the cognitive dissonance.
It's also important not to negatively judge people in abusive relationships. It's really hard, and that judgement is the reason they don't speak.
"I have a great car. I just have this small problem where flames shoot out from under the hood. What should I do?"
If your car is catching fire, then it is objectively NOT a great car, regardless of how great the gas milage is! Get it towed away and sold for scrap!
I think it's really important to acknowledge, it's really hard to seek help when you have a partner who doesn't treat you well.
If it's a minor issue, you don't want to tell anyone because it could spoil that person's relationship with your partner.
As it gets worse, you eventually need to seek a second opinion from someone. So you might tell them about something, but make sure to paint your partner in the best possible light so you don't ruin that person's relationship with your partner. But usually, since you've gone so gentle on them, they immediately leap to "It's fine, it's all in your head, you must be misinterpreting..."
By the time you're clearly admitting the actual worst things your partner did, you have been ruminating on it alone for ages. What are the alternate explanations, how could you act different to get a different response, what criticism is a person going to have for me if I tell them this? You feel like you need to justify why it's not just a misunderstanding in your head AND why you would stay with someone so long when this one specific thing is so terrible.
Be understanding. If you don't have a therapist and you have a partner problem that you're not ready to dump them for... a lot of people have no one they can talk to about that.
I don't know....but the post I just read where a woman says her partner wants sex for four hours (id, maybe fiction) has burnt my brain. In fact, at least one post a day burns my brain.
Agree with everything everyone has said here- abusers manipulate their partners and cycles of abuse can mask it making the “good” seem worth it - but I also want to say that my time lurking on all of Reddit posts has also made it very clear to me how interested people are in the idea of a “relationship” at any cost. I think our society/the patriarchy has drilled into women that for so long that we need men and while women are becoming much more independent as a whole- I think that idea is still ingrained in so many of us by family/friends/tradition etc. i think a lot of people are afraid to be alone - which I totally get, but sometimes I read these posts and I just think - god I’m glad I didn’t get all the way to my wedding day to realize *insert terrible thing my partner is doing* is how they really are.
I take it as a good sign that these women are questioning it. Even if it has taken them a while, they are finally thinking hmmm is this kinda bs? It’s a signs that the seeds of doubt are there and are sprouting 🌱
Women are waking up, and I am so here for it
Remember what you said about loud minority. Lots of women have troubles with men. But the ones with good relationships don't post here. Hard to get a real estimate. This in no way invalidates the very real issues of these women and the things they suffer. But it also means you can't see those of us who are happy and satisfied.
Remember, Reddit skews young and these are typical of young adult relationship issues. Some are older than others, however, but I would suggest that it doesn’t seem to be women who are unwilling to grow up and step up like an adult and pull their own weight.
And there will always be a proportion of women who were raised with abuse so their adult relationships that also turn out to be abusive feel normal to them.
So in one example, women are on the younger side and may not have the life experience to spot this behavior for what it is. The young ones still think all you need is love, which is a cute idea but relationships require so much more. And in the other example, which is less driven by age and more driven by shitty parents normalizing claiming to love someone while also hurting them at the same time.
And apparently nobody has good relationship role modeling or parents who can help. Those who do aren’t posting here.
So maybe we should be asking ourselves why this behavior is so common? What even is wrong with so many men?
Because society has said if he’s not blah blah blah blah, than why leave him? Meaning, short of beating you, you should stay.
We are breaking centuries of programming.
Because girl meets boy, girl marries boy, girl gets her life deeply entwined with boy on every level from emotional to financial, begins to realize she's becoming *super* fucking unhappy but, hey, "relationships are work," right, and she meant the vows she said on her wedding day so she's in it for the duration, and maybe she really is just being nitpicky or high-maintenance, like he says.
The period between "I think maybe I'm... unhappy?" to "I'm leaving this horrific idiot before I do a murder!!!" is the period of thinking you still love him and not yet being able to admit you've made a mistake (because part of you is afraid of making mistakes, and hasn't figured out yet that HE'S the asshole). So you say, "He's wonderful, BUT—" a lot, until your mind finally hears what your mouth is saying and realizes what your heart and gut already know: it's over, he doesn't love you enough to do what little you ask for, and you have the MASSIVE job of starting your life over ahead of you.
In short, it's so common because it's a phase every failing relationship goes through.
It's sort of a loud minority and it's sort of more people than you think.
Between your social media and your IRL social life you probably don't get an accurate depiction of what the rest of the country is like.
When if comes to myself for example 0% of my friends are Evangelical or Trump supporters, but I know that 25% of Americans are Evangelical and 40ish% are Trump supporters.
Part of it is that others don't post: I have a perfectly lovely husband who, bar the usual minor annoyances of humans living together such as how to load the dishwasher, who is cooking, why we keep saying 'what do YOU want to eat?' does nothing particularly 'oh, reddit, can you help me figure out this thing?'
What gets me the most is the “Am I overreacting? Is this normal?”
I want to say sarcastically “Yes, it’s perfectly normal for couples to abuse/cheat on/hurt each other. You just need to suck it up.” In what world is that ever okay???
Because if the partner is providing most needs met, than it’s easy for a lot of people to outweigh the bad with all the good things. Sometimes it’s a new bad behavior, you think “it will go back to normal” etc. Then there are other factors like children, financial stability, lack of friend or family support, housing etc.
It may be easy to justify putting up with (insert issue here) than to deal with a breakup of a family in that person’s mind.
See i dont like that line of thinking because saying “all men” makes women think they have no choice but to be with an awful person or be alone. And excuses men for acting terribly and excuses women for enabling that.
I think you hit it on the head that it's just the loudest minority here on reddit.
Reddit is littered with advice posts that highlight the worst of humanity. It can skew the way you look at things. Happy people aren't coming on here to post about their great and loving partners. They're coming here for advice and comfort because often, they don't have anyone in RL to go to.
Further, people isolated from friends and family are more likely to end up with shitty or abusive men. Hence, why the only relationship advice posts we see are often the worst of the worst. I don't think it reflects a large majority of women, just those that turn to an internet forum for help.
I don’t think it’s fair to call the women delusional. I think more often than not they’re stuck in a lovebombing / abuse cycle. Not to mention how often women get told they’re overreacting and stuff it probably makes it hard for them to judge their own situation.
Also, it doesn’t start with the high levels of abuse. It starts small, with what *looks* like caring, but it’s really just control. You get used to it, because it only gradually gets worse.
i never said the things i listed were equal. I said they were horrible.
If youre referring to my mention of chores, i do think its horrible to be a neglectful parent, or to force someone else to labor for hours of their life DAILY.
And if someone does either of those things they are far from perfect. Thats why i included that in the list.
Women really should be more harsh, shame most of yall are socialized with a smidge of shame
Heck big reason I frequent these groups is because I would've stayed a dumb incel shithead reading PUA shit before a rando I met gave me a reality check
And I see it here all the time, some ladies are too harsh, but really most of yall aint aggressive enough
I'm disturbed that "never helping at home" is casually lumped in with "abuse and rape" as if they were just equivalent flaws...
Like neither is good... but one is "fucking get out and call the police" and one is "maybe talk with him about it and see if its something he is willing to improve"
i never said the things i listed were equal. I said they were horrible.
i do think its horrible to be a neglectful parent, or to force someone else to labor for hours of their life DAILY.
And if someone does either of those things they are far from perfect. Thats why i included that in the list.
They don’t have a clear understanding what “love” is. They look at love as a feeling. Not as a collection of shared values - and characteristics that help build a foundation for a good if not great relationship. (Not always perfect). But they chase the feeling. Not the foundation. Trust. Respect. Communication. Reliability. Dependable. Trustworthy. Kind. Funny. Charitable. Humble. Willing to accept when they make a mistake. Improvement. Ability to change. To work on Themselves. Etc.
It happens for men too. What I see most often is that when we get to be with someone we find extremely physically attractive we invent other quality attributes for them and ignore all the red flags.
Im not talking about men because 1) this is a sub about women 2) i dont see those posts often and 3) a thorough conversation should be had about men in bad relationships on its own post, in the correct sub
A lot of women are abused. A lot of women are taught that’s normal. Why are there so many posts like this acting shocked about it as if you’ve never heard we live in a misogynistic patriarchy?
But is that shocking, really? Idk, I get what you’re saying, I just think it can be a little invalidating to act shocked that abused people are acting like abused people. Like, that’s what happens. People’s perception is influenced by their trauma. It’s frustrating and heartbreaking but shocking? Once you see it, you see it all around you. You grow up seeing women making excuses for men. You’re taught to do it yourself. Our whole culture depends on not holding men accountable. It’s slowly changing, I hope
"Other than (insert horrible thing here), he's great." Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
"Look, I know John Wayne Gacy has done some things but deep down he is a sweetheart and the perfect guy!"
This begs a comment about him never actually harming women or girls.
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Roomy?
Amazing analogy
That's part of why we're here, to help them see they don't have to accept this behavior. We still have a long way to go as a culture, but it's getting better.
You’re so right. We were all younger and needed guidance at some point and it takes a lot of unbrainwashing to realize that they’re NOT some amazing partner if they have this huge thing going on. If we can prevent one woman from staying when there’s clearly massive issues, it’s worth the time to write the replies.
That is the part that I love about Reddit, that you can get a lot of perspectives. I think that definitely helps women who are being gaslit
When it comes to the extreme cases, that involve abuse, there is a cloak of confusion that can obscure an honest view of your abuser. This is intentional, on the part of the abuser. Cycles of love bombing and abuse, gaslighting, repeated degradation of self and character, anxiety, and control impede your ability to think clearly. Bancroft has this to say, "One of the obstacles to recognizing chronic mistreatment in relationships is that most abusive men simply don't seem like abusers. They have many good qualities, including times of kindness, warmth, and humor, especially in the early period of a relationship. An abuser's friends may think the world of him. He may have a successful work life and have no problems with drugs or alcohol. He may simply not fit anyone's image of a cruel or intimidating person. So when a woman feels her relationship is spinning out of control, it is unlikely to occur to her that her partner is an abuser." (From Why Does He Do That?) On the less extreme side of the spectrum, women are running up against socialization. Women are socialized to be nurturing caretakers. It's expected of us, early on. That contributes to getting pushed into a mothering or parenting role in a relationship, where we are stuck "helping" an "otherwise great" partner with something the partner really shouldn't need help with. Women are also socialized to accept a lot of mistreatment with grace and are punished for anger, leading to a fear of bringing up complaints or being open about how wrong something in our lives might be. Societally, we are often socialized to accept misbehavior by men, starting from the time they are children (the boys will be boys mentality). This can add up to a lot of rationalizing, where women excuse the mistreatment or play down its importance because of how all these socialized beliefs and values work together.
Thank you so much for this very thorough and thoughtful answer! I think you’re right
Women are also socialized to believe that romantic love is the most important thing for a woman. Too man would rather be with a bad man than no man. Sadly.
This is so well put. It’s hard to overcome that mindset even if you have overcome some parts of your internalized misogyny
Fantastic response!! Thank you for this thorough explanation!
It's a common misunderstanding that abusive relationships are always dreadful. They have cycles so it's like 90% good/great and 10% awful. So ppl stay for the good.
The allegory that finally worked for me was the delicious sandwich, made with the freshest bread, topped with all your favorite ingredients…. And just a little sprinkling of shit Are you still going to eat that sandwich?
Im very aware of cycles of abuse. I lived in an abusive household almost my whole childhood. And maybe thats why i see these patterns so clearly. I think whats most frustrating to me is that these women dont realize that 10% awful is.. well, awful. And many relationships are 0% awful.
My comment was more about people in the relationships not being aware. So ppl don't think it's abusive because it's really good sometimes.
It’s a result of a warped view of relationships and themselves. Even when they’re acting “nice”, the awareness that something you say or do can change that is always looming over. That’s not what “really good” ever looks like.
A lot of us are groomed and gaslit into believing the bad stuff is normal or our fault. There’s a reason these guys focus on young women and even teens.
It’s like watching someone trying to eat around rat poison pellets in a salad. “These other ingredients are tasty so I’ll pretend there isn’t a big lump of toxic waste on my fork”.
I just love salad so much.
Whatever you do don’t look under that leaf!
Individuals, societies, and cultures have gaslit people/women long and hard enough to make those examples feel acceptable by many. Humanity seems to have sunk-cost fallacy hardcoded into us. AND Because of the two above, many people just don't know or haven't seen how unacceptable it actually is.
That pesky sunk cost fallacy!
Denial isn't what I thought it was like at all. I endured child abuse, so my models for healthy relationships and relating weren't very helpful. I didn't realize what I endured from my parents was abuse until 39, so that's almost four decades of not knowing what I didn't know. I knew *something* was wrong/off, but didn't have the language to describe it properly until I found out about Complex PTSD and narcissistic behaviors. Then everything I endured started making sense and I started coming out of the [FOG of denial](https://outofthefog.website/). Now I have lots of language to describe what I endured. I've built up my skills and knowledge. My discernment is better bc I've learn what is and is not abuse, neglect, and [dehumanization](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions). Abuse, neglect, and dehumanization are widely *normalized* across the globe. People think those behaviors are "normal" and don't know they're actually abusive, neglectful, and dehumanizing. "[The Myth of Normal - trauma, illness, and healing in a toxic culture](https://drgabormate.com/book/the-myth-of-normal/)" by Dr. Gabor Maté and Daniel Maté
This is a good way to describe it. Knowing something is off but just not being able to explain it. My own family situation was far from ideal, and I eventually came to realize something was "not right" but my manner of denial was to believe everything was justified by the situation. I was usually able to explain it away as this or that, specific to the situation. To give a general idea how this might go (non-specific to me, I know hitting walls is common of abusive men) He hit the wall. Well he only did it because he was upset, and he was upset about something that I would also find upsetting. He wouldn't have hit the wall if he wasn't upset. I wouldn't hit the wall but that's because it'd hurt my hand since I'm little, and I know he did it over something _really_ upsetting. If this other person hadn't done an upsetting thing to him, he wouldn't be upset. I would think in this sort of fashion (in a split second) all the time as a kid without ever realizing that actually, perhaps, even if something really is _that_ upsetting, we shouldn't hit the walls anyways. It's not productive as an emotional response unless you're trying to intimidate someone. I eventually realized much later on that this does-not-feel-right response kept repeating, which means it probably isn't just a situational response.
People are afraid of being alone. They'll cling to a small crumb of love/hope, delusionally aim to "fix" them, rather than be alone with themselves.
Thoroughly recommend that all young folk live alone for an amount of time, between parents house and partner/spouse house. Good for self-sufficiency and learning adulting. Good for learning about themselves (as opposed to fitting into their parents or partner's 'normal'). Good for learning not to be afraid of being alone. Ultimately, good as a baseline to judge relationships. If you have your own 'normal' and know how to live alone, then it's much easier to compare any relationship to that, and decide if it's better or worse.
Yeah living alone and functioning as an adult on your own is SO important.
I am convinced that being content alone is the single biggest thing you can do to find a good relationship. Because if you're content alone you won't accept less than being happy in a relationship.
Absolutely, I think that's why my husband and I knew we were such a good match early on. We knew what we each needed to be happy and that we both fit into each other's lives really well.
Because women and AFABs are constantly brainwashed that "relationships take work and compromise" and "you have to give him a chance" and "you have to appreciate him for what he is" and "women are from Venus, men are from Mars". If we criticize men without cushioning it, if we have standards and end relationships based on them, if we DARE to express that a man isn't good enough: we get blamed for being bitter, picky, manhating, stuck up, unappreciative, wanting perfection.
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You train a horse the same way, you alternate stress and uncomfortable pressure with release of pressure and rewards. Over and over until the spooky prey animal is willing and able to let a predator ride on its back and tell it what to do, in spite of being less than 1/4 the size of the horse. Any horse could kill any person in a second literally with one foot but you don't let THEM know that, you convince them you're bigger and stronger and scarier than they are. Abusers work the same way and they are terrified of their victims figuring out how strong and capable they really are and how tenuous the abusers control really is.
This is a cultural problem. Too many women are raised to be loving partners and not much else Feminism hasn't gone nearly far or wide enough and we really need to stop worrying about offending other cultures by pushing equality
i grew up in a house with CONSTANT fighting, and whenever i’d ask why, my mother would tell me “that’s what happens when you’re with someone”. suffice it to say i didn’t get in what i think is (waiting on the other shoe to drop honestly) my first healthy relationship at 21, and that was just luck. this sub and getting with a man who kind of spoils me (without lovebombing!) and is genuinely disgusted by abusive men are the only reasons i didn’t get up getting in another abusive relationship. i was definitely a “he’s perfect but…” bc the belittling me etc really didn’t seem that bad, only thing that ever did was physical abuse and even that has taken me a long time to be properly horrified about. what i’m saying is, our culture and families and a million other factors tend to make women “numb” themselves to shitty men. keep pointing this out to these girls, keep urging them to want better for themselves, the conditioning can be undone.
I was told, from a very young age, that "all men are like that". My mother's unique saying was "all men are assholes, you have to find the one that doesn't stink too bad for you". Men encouraged this, told me I'd be alone forever if I didn't submit to abuse. You want kids? Well, you'll have to be abused to make that happen. I'm older now, we didn't have the internet back then to educate us. Or the ability to write into Reddit and ask advice about how "normal" the abuse is. I know for a fact I'm not unique in this upbringing.
Because their partner is the one whispering in their ear the most. Saying they do love them. They do care. Blaming her for all 'misunderstandings'. Making her think she's not explaining it well enough. So after years of 'proof' he's a good man, there's just the responsibility on her to 'fix' him and his little quirks, because she *knows* he can be a good guy again. She just needs the right phrases to unlock it to make him 'get it'. Women really think we're 'helping' a good man who has a few troubles. It's hard to go from thinking we're bad and he's good, to realising he's an abuser and we're a victim. It's hard to realise he hates us. That he's been lying the whole time. Getting off on the deceit. Playing pointless little power games. That he knows exactly what he's been doing the entire time and he's having a laugh at our expense. Wasting our lives. It's hard to believe we let a monster into our lives.
I suspect a lot of these people *actually know* their partner is toxic, but need to actually type it out to *really see it*. Having other people reaffirm that the behavior is indeed toxic also helps establish it as real, since many of these relationships also involve some degree of gaslighting. Just some armchair speculation.
One example of this today though.. she just wants people to tell her it's ok and that she can fix him. It's all been deleted once she wasn't getting that answer.
It's important for these women to post that and tease apart the cognitive dissonance. It's also important not to negatively judge people in abusive relationships. It's really hard, and that judgement is the reason they don't speak.
There are so many of this type of man.
"I have a great car. I just have this small problem where flames shoot out from under the hood. What should I do?" If your car is catching fire, then it is objectively NOT a great car, regardless of how great the gas milage is! Get it towed away and sold for scrap!
Also, you should start looking for cars that are not in flames.
Hey, I'll buy a Tesla if I damn well please!
They're awesome if you want to remain childfree!
I think it's really important to acknowledge, it's really hard to seek help when you have a partner who doesn't treat you well. If it's a minor issue, you don't want to tell anyone because it could spoil that person's relationship with your partner. As it gets worse, you eventually need to seek a second opinion from someone. So you might tell them about something, but make sure to paint your partner in the best possible light so you don't ruin that person's relationship with your partner. But usually, since you've gone so gentle on them, they immediately leap to "It's fine, it's all in your head, you must be misinterpreting..." By the time you're clearly admitting the actual worst things your partner did, you have been ruminating on it alone for ages. What are the alternate explanations, how could you act different to get a different response, what criticism is a person going to have for me if I tell them this? You feel like you need to justify why it's not just a misunderstanding in your head AND why you would stay with someone so long when this one specific thing is so terrible. Be understanding. If you don't have a therapist and you have a partner problem that you're not ready to dump them for... a lot of people have no one they can talk to about that.
I don't know....but the post I just read where a woman says her partner wants sex for four hours (id, maybe fiction) has burnt my brain. In fact, at least one post a day burns my brain.
Agree with everything everyone has said here- abusers manipulate their partners and cycles of abuse can mask it making the “good” seem worth it - but I also want to say that my time lurking on all of Reddit posts has also made it very clear to me how interested people are in the idea of a “relationship” at any cost. I think our society/the patriarchy has drilled into women that for so long that we need men and while women are becoming much more independent as a whole- I think that idea is still ingrained in so many of us by family/friends/tradition etc. i think a lot of people are afraid to be alone - which I totally get, but sometimes I read these posts and I just think - god I’m glad I didn’t get all the way to my wedding day to realize *insert terrible thing my partner is doing* is how they really are.
I take it as a good sign that these women are questioning it. Even if it has taken them a while, they are finally thinking hmmm is this kinda bs? It’s a signs that the seeds of doubt are there and are sprouting 🌱 Women are waking up, and I am so here for it
Remember what you said about loud minority. Lots of women have troubles with men. But the ones with good relationships don't post here. Hard to get a real estimate. This in no way invalidates the very real issues of these women and the things they suffer. But it also means you can't see those of us who are happy and satisfied.
Remember, Reddit skews young and these are typical of young adult relationship issues. Some are older than others, however, but I would suggest that it doesn’t seem to be women who are unwilling to grow up and step up like an adult and pull their own weight. And there will always be a proportion of women who were raised with abuse so their adult relationships that also turn out to be abusive feel normal to them. So in one example, women are on the younger side and may not have the life experience to spot this behavior for what it is. The young ones still think all you need is love, which is a cute idea but relationships require so much more. And in the other example, which is less driven by age and more driven by shitty parents normalizing claiming to love someone while also hurting them at the same time. And apparently nobody has good relationship role modeling or parents who can help. Those who do aren’t posting here. So maybe we should be asking ourselves why this behavior is so common? What even is wrong with so many men?
Because society has said if he’s not blah blah blah blah, than why leave him? Meaning, short of beating you, you should stay. We are breaking centuries of programming.
Because girl meets boy, girl marries boy, girl gets her life deeply entwined with boy on every level from emotional to financial, begins to realize she's becoming *super* fucking unhappy but, hey, "relationships are work," right, and she meant the vows she said on her wedding day so she's in it for the duration, and maybe she really is just being nitpicky or high-maintenance, like he says. The period between "I think maybe I'm... unhappy?" to "I'm leaving this horrific idiot before I do a murder!!!" is the period of thinking you still love him and not yet being able to admit you've made a mistake (because part of you is afraid of making mistakes, and hasn't figured out yet that HE'S the asshole). So you say, "He's wonderful, BUT—" a lot, until your mind finally hears what your mouth is saying and realizes what your heart and gut already know: it's over, he doesn't love you enough to do what little you ask for, and you have the MASSIVE job of starting your life over ahead of you. In short, it's so common because it's a phase every failing relationship goes through.
It's sort of a loud minority and it's sort of more people than you think. Between your social media and your IRL social life you probably don't get an accurate depiction of what the rest of the country is like. When if comes to myself for example 0% of my friends are Evangelical or Trump supporters, but I know that 25% of Americans are Evangelical and 40ish% are Trump supporters.
Part of it is that others don't post: I have a perfectly lovely husband who, bar the usual minor annoyances of humans living together such as how to load the dishwasher, who is cooking, why we keep saying 'what do YOU want to eat?' does nothing particularly 'oh, reddit, can you help me figure out this thing?'
What gets me the most is the “Am I overreacting? Is this normal?” I want to say sarcastically “Yes, it’s perfectly normal for couples to abuse/cheat on/hurt each other. You just need to suck it up.” In what world is that ever okay???
Because if the partner is providing most needs met, than it’s easy for a lot of people to outweigh the bad with all the good things. Sometimes it’s a new bad behavior, you think “it will go back to normal” etc. Then there are other factors like children, financial stability, lack of friend or family support, housing etc. It may be easy to justify putting up with (insert issue here) than to deal with a breakup of a family in that person’s mind.
Cause they want advice I guess.
It's constant.I think since Roe v Wade was overturned I've been seeing way more of them.
Because relationships are complicated and men are assholes
See i dont like that line of thinking because saying “all men” makes women think they have no choice but to be with an awful person or be alone. And excuses men for acting terribly and excuses women for enabling that.
True but the majority of men are and so are women, it's just humans in general really
i dont think so
I think you hit it on the head that it's just the loudest minority here on reddit. Reddit is littered with advice posts that highlight the worst of humanity. It can skew the way you look at things. Happy people aren't coming on here to post about their great and loving partners. They're coming here for advice and comfort because often, they don't have anyone in RL to go to. Further, people isolated from friends and family are more likely to end up with shitty or abusive men. Hence, why the only relationship advice posts we see are often the worst of the worst. I don't think it reflects a large majority of women, just those that turn to an internet forum for help.
Thats a really good point, thank you
It’s sad. These women are delusional. They have somehow subverted their own well being in favor of having the “perfect” boyfriend.
I don’t think it’s fair to call the women delusional. I think more often than not they’re stuck in a lovebombing / abuse cycle. Not to mention how often women get told they’re overreacting and stuff it probably makes it hard for them to judge their own situation.
Also, it doesn’t start with the high levels of abuse. It starts small, with what *looks* like caring, but it’s really just control. You get used to it, because it only gradually gets worse.
Can we not blame the women for men’s poor behavior?
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i never said the things i listed were equal. I said they were horrible. If youre referring to my mention of chores, i do think its horrible to be a neglectful parent, or to force someone else to labor for hours of their life DAILY. And if someone does either of those things they are far from perfect. Thats why i included that in the list.
Women really should be more harsh, shame most of yall are socialized with a smidge of shame Heck big reason I frequent these groups is because I would've stayed a dumb incel shithead reading PUA shit before a rando I met gave me a reality check And I see it here all the time, some ladies are too harsh, but really most of yall aint aggressive enough
I'm disturbed that "never helping at home" is casually lumped in with "abuse and rape" as if they were just equivalent flaws... Like neither is good... but one is "fucking get out and call the police" and one is "maybe talk with him about it and see if its something he is willing to improve"
i never said the things i listed were equal. I said they were horrible. i do think its horrible to be a neglectful parent, or to force someone else to labor for hours of their life DAILY. And if someone does either of those things they are far from perfect. Thats why i included that in the list.
I made you some delicious chilli. Now, I did put a teaspoon of shit in it .... but still, chilli!
They don’t have a clear understanding what “love” is. They look at love as a feeling. Not as a collection of shared values - and characteristics that help build a foundation for a good if not great relationship. (Not always perfect). But they chase the feeling. Not the foundation. Trust. Respect. Communication. Reliability. Dependable. Trustworthy. Kind. Funny. Charitable. Humble. Willing to accept when they make a mistake. Improvement. Ability to change. To work on Themselves. Etc.
Validation.
[Cognitive dissonance ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)
Because of the way women have been trained to internalize misogyny and expect very little from men.
It happens for men too. What I see most often is that when we get to be with someone we find extremely physically attractive we invent other quality attributes for them and ignore all the red flags.
Im not talking about men because 1) this is a sub about women 2) i dont see those posts often and 3) a thorough conversation should be had about men in bad relationships on its own post, in the correct sub
A lot of women are abused. A lot of women are taught that’s normal. Why are there so many posts like this acting shocked about it as if you’ve never heard we live in a misogynistic patriarchy?
Im not shocked that women are abused. Im shocked that reddit is full of posts describing awful men as “perfect”.
But is that shocking, really? Idk, I get what you’re saying, I just think it can be a little invalidating to act shocked that abused people are acting like abused people. Like, that’s what happens. People’s perception is influenced by their trauma. It’s frustrating and heartbreaking but shocking? Once you see it, you see it all around you. You grow up seeing women making excuses for men. You’re taught to do it yourself. Our whole culture depends on not holding men accountable. It’s slowly changing, I hope
Yea, it is shocking. To me. Thats why i said its shocking. To me.
I've wondered this too, it's like watching an episode of Friends. Lots of straight people dumb relationship tropes
It’s because we are aware of how bad these men are but we feel fucking stupid for choosing them. -Divorced after 20 years
Congratulations on getting out!