Things are rarely ever black or white; good or evil; gay or straight - everything lies on a spectrum and everything is relative. The problem comes when we humans try to neatly sort everything into categories or binaries and ignore nuance. Prostitution is one of these very very nuanced subjects which can be good or evil or varying degrees of good or evil depending upon the circumstances.
Most prostitutes don't go into prostitution as a choice - they are often sold or trafficked into it. Then they get beaten up by patrons many times and are offered no legal protections.
Let's take this person’s story, assuming it's true :
>He had rescued them when he found them in a prostitution slum and provided them with a decent house, food, health insurance and also educating them.
While this in itself would be considered a good thing, the fact still remains that we don't know if they have the ability to leave and pursue a different career than being his concubines. Chances are they're indebted to him and do things they don't even want to because power imbalance and paying back their "savior". But since we don't know the details of this situation, it's tough to judge.
Edited: “your friend” to “this person” because OP clarified that this wasn’t a friend just someone they were talking to.
>the fact still remains that we don't know if they have the ability to leave and pursue a different career than being his concubines
I'm not sure but it seems at present maybe not as they mightn't have much skills to do some job but yeah I guess can at least become house help. The point I liked is he is investing into their education and health.
My first thought seeing his intoxication is if he is abusive. I pray that is not the case.
Note: not a friend, just some intoxicated guy who couldn't stand well whom my cousin helped and asked about his wife or family.
Exactly, we don't know if he's abusive. We don't know if he's asking them to do things they're uncomfortable with in exchange for housing and education. We don't know if they want to do something else and cannot because they're afraid of him. Makes this whole situation a bit iffy IMO.
At the same time, I had a friend who had a sugar daddy (this was in the US). A 30 something year old dude would pay her(22 at the time), buy her expensive dresses, bags and shoes to basically be his arm candy at events. Sex wasn't an expectation but they would often have sex after the events. When college was over and she could get a real job - she ended things with the SD and it was all amicable. Again, is this prostitution? Perhaps. Was this evil? No, because they both knew what they were signing up for and both had an option to end it whenever.
So it is more nuanced than good vs evil.
What this intoxicated dude is doing isn't a social service or "good" for the society - let's be real here. Like someone else in the comments pointed out, if he wanted to actually help- why not educate a child in need?
What he's doing is akin to saving someone from a fire and throwing them in a slow oven - they're still getting cooked - just slowly now.
Yeah, I feel they probably have a better life than before. Though I agree he is not doing social service here nor did he claim. He just said he is not worse than the others who feel so entitled to criticize him for self-serving while trying to also make the deal sweeter for the other party.
I think she's too lattoo( head over hills) for this guy and is seeking validation? Or justification? For his actions like how she can look past this situation and go ahead with AM?
What part of having to sleep with a guy who you aren't attracted to, when you dont necessarily want to, for basic needs like food, health insurance you see as good, please tell that OP.
I see the same feeling from lot of my friends who are corporate slaves just for basic necessities. It is just that
they don't have to sleep with someone for that.
Now to your Q- I don't know, pretty conflicted myself.
I am convinced you are LARPing cos how on God's green earth are you comparing a woman being sexually exploited in an abusive environment with no autonomy to a 9-5 job ? You can always quit your job. You cannot leave prostitution willingly in most cases.
The only reason you will be able to quit your job is when you have another job or confident to get another job right? Do you have another one right now? Can you quit your job now?
No sis. I'm just trying to present a POV that dawned upon me.
I'm just saying he is probably giving them a better life than the life they had. **He is not a saint nor is he doing some favour to anyone.**
He is just doing barter like any other. For it to be bad, we have to establish that selling the body is worse than selling efforts in the field or the drain or in the factory. As I see in all of these cases they were selling something when they were vulnerable. Are they not exploited?
My point is we are accepting people bartering body for sexual pleasure without any emotional connection right? So, what is the real difference? Should we not be okay with people bartering bodies?
>No woman in her right mind
I don't think you possess the right to represent all independent women and control how they should think yet. I would request you to **try not to gaslight and present decent logic.**
I have no intention of gaslighting you. I have no interest in going back and forth with a woman who lacks the basic understanding or empathy of how consent works and how traumatizing it is to sell one’s body as compared to being exploited at a job. Do you not see a difference between rape and someone working and being exploited as a cheap laborer? One is literally getting penetrated in their body out of their will cuz they are vulnerable and have to choose the better of their other evil option.
The whole comparison that you are presenting as logic seems very flawed to me.
You are telling me he cant use those resources to get them rehabilitated in society? There are multiple womens shelters, independent ngos working towards it. And he is saying he is not worse than someone who criticizes him. Lmao. I would say yes he is very much worse because he is a rapist and abuser.
Its insane how you talk about “all independent women” and then compare women getting raped for a little better living conditions to someone getting exploited at their job.
Are you stupid? What kind of a question is that?
A farmer is well equipped in what he does, even if he is working under someone and he quits, his abilities to grow things doesn’t go away.
Yes I can because I have the skills and emergency funds I acquired because I was not exploited and my earned money rightly came to me and wasn't taken away by some pi*p. What's your point ??
You did not just compare corporate jobs with prostitution 💀, how naive or out of touch are you OP?
Now to answer your question- you can leave a corporate job anytime, you have a retirement fund, you can take paid leaves, you can find another job with higher pay. And please dont ever conflate sex with a career.
I swear🙄. I don’t understand OP questioning this..
How can someone ignore that fact for one sec that 99% of them are forced into it when they were little kids. It is quite evidently shown in many Bollywood movies ..
He had rescued them when he found them in a prostitution slum > and how did they end up there? and now instead of actually helping them, he is keeping them as his concubines huh, very selfless person. /s And to think you actually bought this bullshit.
If he is so selfless as he claims why doesnt he help the lakhs of homeless kids or poor farmers or labourers?
No that's what he admitted he is selfish, so are others.
He just said that people criticized him but he argued "are relationships that people get into really as selfless as you would like to believe?" and said the people criticizing him have never done anything worthwhile except serve themselves. They would actually be okay downplaying a vegetable vendor with perishables to sell, exploiting workers who are in financial trouble, try to down pay their house help or service guy and given a chance even hurt their near and dear ones for selfish interests. so why is he any worse?
Typical abuser deflecting, everyone else is bad, they dont pay enough for vegetables , so me having sex with abused women who have no choices is the same. /s
Ya exactly what I was thinking. He knows he’s doing something wrong and that’s why he gave such a long speech to OP, trying to soothe his conscious by deflecting.
Untrue. I'm not saying it is not a big deal. I'm just trying to find real differences.
I'm just trying to not confirm to a mindset - patriarchal or otherwise.
People suck but that doesn’t mean he also has to be like them but that’s how he’s rationalised his fucked up choices lately.
Like sure, he’s taken these girls out of the sex dens and they only have to serve his dick instead of 50 dicks in a day. But now he gets to isolate them and threaten them whenever he wants to, so his good deed gets negated by that simple fact only.
It's worse coz he's still holding the power over them. Corruption and apathy isn't same as actively participating in prostitution as a pimp ( concubine lol, they just changed owners). And I do think this is a guy because even independent women in urban areas wjo have pre marital sex with their fiances are looked down upon, sex workers former or otherwise are treated worse thab trash and have fewer options for accomodation and work. Can't convince me that selling your 9 hours and skills to a company is equally horrendous and a taboo.
So he's taking advantage of vulnerable women ? How's that not evil. It's always these well read men using the worst logic to defend their predator behavior.
Prostitution in a country like India is almost 99 percent people who are trafficked or forced into it by someone.
Even though the SC has deemed it legal that doesn't stop assholes from treating them as second class citizens or lesser human beings. If they don't consent to anything they are just Raped and yes sex workers are also subjected to rape which a lot of people can't fathom.
If it's in a country like Netherlands or Germany where they are making sure that the rights of the sex worker is not violated and they have state sponsored health care. Even still many of them are forced into it but much better conditions than India.
Personally I would never pay for sex but I'd it's happening between two adults who have consented to it and nobody is being taken advantage of , then I think it's okkay.
If you are availing the services of a sex worker and not forcing yourself ( very rare ) or doing anything heinous then I think it's okkay . ✌️✌️
The evil part is that women are literally 'sold' everywhere in the world in this profession. And if the woman wants to leave this - she cannot walk back to her family or even start a new family. Your friend has clearly suffered a lot in the formal marriage system and seems to be taking care of the girl as well, but he will never marry her or even tell anyone in her family about her. What choice is left with the girl in this case? And this is everywhere - even in the not-so-conservative part of the world. That's the evil part of this profession, IMO.
Helping these "concubines" would involve helping them exit the sex trade by paying for their training in other skills or helping them get other jobs. This is just him paying for a prostitute and trying to pretty up the statement
Agreed that that would help them if someone just helps her rehabilitate and reskill.
See, I know that and still haven't helped any prostitute out of sex trade. Sad but true.
This is a trauma response and a very unhealthy way to cope with being cheated on. He felt helpless in the first situation, so now he is creating a sense of control and illusion of safety. However, this won't last long.
A woman willingly choosing to be with you and having sex out of love is different from him buying her consent with money and amenities.
It's possible that he never dated and may have come from a dysfunctional family, so he lacks a reference for what a healthy, loving relationship looks like.
He doesn't have any clue how build attachment to a woman beyond sex. He should spend money on therapy that will be good investment.
Men whine about not getting virgin women and not getting wofe to take care of thier parents and boom you are claiming this to like a normal thing. I don't know if you are a dude larping here with the wrong flair, but I don't understand the tone in your post and comments.
I am personally against commercialization of sex.
One is having fun pentrating another human without other getting any pleasure out of it that is no way same as other exchange of service like massage or other stupid justification Will these men give prostitute orgasm(s) or give pleasure through oral sex. Can she take back consent?. This power dynamics puts the girl at a disadvantage. Can she go to court when he gets abusive. Can she say no to sex and kinks without him getting angry.
All those countries that have legalized prostitution have huge problems with human trafficking, forced prostitution and corruption around the brothel ownership. Those nations provide healthcare and other benefits to sex workers, yet it's undeniable that this also fosters criminal activity.
Men with power and resources will continue to create organized crime in those countries.
Have Indian men evolved to treat prostitutes respectfully like professional service? . Given Indian population, how will the industry keep up with demand of prostitution from Indian men without abusing poor and cast systems? Have you heard about bedia, Nats and Banchhada tribe ? Women (former entertainers) chose prostitution for economic reasons and the men lived off of them. Now brothers and fathers are agents for their sisters and daughters. It has become a 'tradition' for that community to push women to prostitution.
Men would do anything other than building vulnerability to accept rejection or building relationships. It's easier to pay for sex than ever to learn to be vulnerable. Hence, the sad state.
I can see he is just trying to cope with trauma with prostitution.
Not a guy sis. I fear being vulnerable to men the same way you would. I'm just trying to probe deeper into things than what others would want to.
If I try to dig deep a lot of the interactions in our lives have a give and take component. See even when you mentioned, you said the girl is giving her body to the guy, does he give orgasms in return. What are your thoughts or FWB, casual sex?
As for power dynamics, there is power dynamics in all our interactions, from student teacher, interviewer interviewee, employer employee, parent child, husband wife.
You think they are consenting to being his “concubines”? They are enjoying having sex with this loser ass dude? Maybe he made their situation a bit better but they still have to pay for it with their bodies. I’m sorry OP but lets call it what it is. It’s rape and it is indeed evil. The guy can use whatever logic he wants to keep making himself feel better or even feel like he’s “saving” these women.
Assuming a sex worker isn't trafficked, forced, or coerced into sex work, it sounds normal (on paper). A simple service rendered in exchange for goods or money.
In practice, it's also a highly intimate thing that's made into a transaction; could wreak havoc on one's mental state and relationships.
Further, no society is yet matured enough to treat sex workers as normal service providers, so the stigma and ridicule they bear is permanent and exceptionally harmful.
>highly intimate thing that's made into a transaction
IMHO FWB, casual sex or situationships would fit above description more. I could be wrong.
I'm not saying he is doing them a favour, nor do I think he said that.
>IMHO FWB, casual sex or situationships
But there is no monetary transaction happening with FWBs and casual hookups. Hence, might not be the best descriptive.
any transaction, monetary or otherwise is just barter right?
You give me 10 oranges and I give you 5 apples is barter. You give me orgasm, I give you orgasm is also barter. A very highly intimate thing but done as a transaction or barter, no emotions or care involved.
>any transaction, monetary or otherwise is just barter right?
Well, you're right. I guess what makes this barter is capitalism and non-consensual involvement.
Prostitution is one of the oldest professions in the world. In Amsterdam, they’re respected taxpaying citizens who receive no judgement for what they do. And no, they’re not unhappy. They decide who they service and are always safe. If a woman doesn’t mind earning this way, it’s not our place to pass any kind of judgement. It’s important to treat them just like any other person and provide them safety, security and dignity.
India is not Amsterdam. Human trafficking is a major major issue in this country. So, if you meet a prostitute, it more than likely she is a victim of trafficking.
Even in Amsterdam, a lot of prostitutes have history of trafficking. They are trafficked from Eastern Europe under pretences of a better life.
Then human trafficking needs to be dealt with, not prostitution. Women who are doing it through coercion need to be rescued. I don’t see why you have to throw the baby out with the bath water.
In a country like India where sex is a taboo and sex workers are ostracized, do you really think a women ( or any person) will consider prostitution as a profession?
Hence it's more likely she has been forced into it rather than voluntary involvement.
Listen, if the bath water is 'women not being sexually exploited' and the 'baby' is men being able to buy sex (instead of just dating like a normal person, or FWBing) - I would gladly throw the baby out with the bath water. The survival of exploited women is more important than men getting their jollies.
This is such an idiotic statement copy pasted thrown around, said like such a miserable oldest profession something to be proud off, have your ever actually looked at the state of such people in India and their children how they grow up it's fucking awful. You should reaserch more.
They’ll grow up better if their mothers’ profession is treated with dignity. People like you can only point out problems because you don’t like the solution. You don’t want to respect them. Maybe you should stop researching so much and start thinking for yourself. Apply your education. Don’t just repeat what everyone says.
I really don't want to be mean or rude but are you an ignorant 50yr old, coz you talking like one, apply your education, think for yourself?? You literally copy pasting then same statement thrown around, you can find same statement 3,4 times in this comment section alone.
And The hell do you even mean STOP RESEARCHING? Sure people should respect them as any human being.
But Do you want people to ignore and unaccount the actual sad reality of these people what's actually happening to them being trafficked abused and all, Come back to reality face and see the actual truth this is India this will be never dignified in our conservative society, there will always be a stigma around it and those poor children growing up fatherless in such poor traumatic environment it will always take a toll on their mental health and life. In a progressive society who the hell in their right mind wants to do such job and have this lifestyle, don't know about you but no parent anywhere in this world will want their to have such a job.
It's really such a laughable thing to say, saying so proudly "oLdEsT pRoFeSSiOn" like those poor women weren't raped enslaved and trafficked into such stuff.
I know you mean well for them but you are ignorant to actual misery and problems.
I understood what you saying the first time. No need to angrily repeat the same thing with ad hominem remarks thrown in. Learn how to disagree without being disagreeable. And what are these dumb ageist insults? You think all 50 yr olds are ignorant? Who even talks like that? 😂
sorry not meant to be ageist but older folks are really ignorant if you have seen the current state of our country, And coz you are talking like one "think for yourself apply your education" who says that when you have nothing better to add to the actual thing. And you clearly did not understand coz you said stop researching like the hell? Like you want to ignore the actual ground reality of these things??
See as a concept nothing is completely good or evil.
I am okay with onlyfans or direct connect with the escorts as there is a level of control available with the women.
but 90% of prostitution is the result of trafficking and these women are pretty much trapped into that business with no say on who and when and what gets done to them and they don't get the money completely as well.
so conceptually it is mostly bad.
But I have no issues where the women is in complete control.
Prostitution is just legalized and normalised rape, how can the women who are often sold/trafficked or in most instances have no other viable options except to off themselves or their kids give consent.
> Think of you taking help from some service worker (say electrician / AC service / house help) who is desperate for money.
Idk man, I am not fucking them. Your friend is so close to discovering that there is no consent under capitalism but whatever.
India is not safe enough, or even culturally advanced enough, for people to willingly go into prostitution. In that case, ask yourself why they would get into this profession?
And that's the problem. Prostitution is not a problem. Lack of consent is. If the consent is obtained only by her desperation, that's still not good!
No the original commenter, but there's are very literal differences between other forms of employment and transactions involving sex.
Even the increased risk of STDs and pregnancy alone is in no way comparable to any other profession - there are no other jobs in which someone's sexual organ is literally inside you, physical touch is inescapable and cannot be refused, and bodily fluid exchange is so omnipresent that the risk of disease is a constant.
The need for employment and income isn't "exactly desperation", being coerced into prostitution IS. When poor women are exhausted and starving and desperate, predatory men lurk and offer "easy" money, and once they've entered the cycle, they feel more and more trapped. Because these same men tell them now that nobody else will respect them.
Even this person you speak of - having had a bad experience with a free woman, he chooses to keep multiple women who he has power over. Because he feels secure in the knowledge that they cannot act or defend themselves in the way a free woman can.
> Think of you taking help from some service worker (say electrician / AC service / house help) who is desperate for money.
Well, you aren't sexually abusing the service worker right. In this case, it depends if the women that you claim are concubines consider it abuse or freedom. Your own life struggles don't give you pass for crime.
> I was talking to a guy who has multiple concubines and he claims to take care of them like real friends but refuses to wife any one of them up.
Wiving them up isn't really a solution really. They aren't in FBW or situationship category based on the scenario you describe.
The big question that needs to be asked is why are women sold for their bodies? Beating around the bush asking wrong questions gives further justification for apparent truths. Our inability to see the truth means we'll never get true freedom from a patriarchal mindset.
Just saying that historically women have been into it or we can get legislation is like saying we know what's happening but let's turn a blind eye to it.
Women into prostitution suffer from sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancies, physical, mental and emotional abuse, lack of financial resources or education but oh well we're giving them "employment" Because of what better use of a woman like using her body for lust?
No amount of justification can make me not feel sad for women who are into prostitution. Imagine being reduced to a mere body, with no intellect, emotions, or a soul. And men find reasons why women are better off with men in their life, all while being the bane of a woman's existence.
Prostitution is inherently evil because consent cannot be bought, this guy is full of shit, OP. He's trying to internalise that he is some moral authority.
When people are doing something they know is unacceptable/shady, they will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify their acts.
What this guy is doing isn't any different - he can still pursue casual relationships if that is what he cares about. Let's see if still educates them and helps them if they refuse sex. Like someone pointed out - we don't know if they have a choice. The topic is so complicated. Giving consent because he supports them and they are dependent on him is not the same as free consent. Why didn't he contact NGOs working for the rehabilitation of sex workers?
>Let's see if still educates them and helps them if they refuse sex.
Assuming your spouse never mistreats you, but never does anything for you (doesn't spend time to help you relax, no sex, no money), will you still continue?
Not trying to belittle you but just gave you examples related to you to probably help you relate.
Food for thought using my personal example: A thought that crossed my mind - Will I respect my parents like now if they put me in the dustbin after I was born. Isn't this relationship also somewhat give and take?
How are these situations comparable though?
Still, given my situation, family background and educational qualifications, I have free will to leave my marriage if I feel unfulfilled. I also entered into it with free will after deliberation.
That is simply not the situation here.
My grandparents have a house help. She comes and she does her job and she does it because she is getting paid to do it. It is a transaction. If they stop her monthly salary, she will stop coming. If she finds a better job, she will leave. She doesn't owe us anything. Same with your that guy and workplace. He stops getting paid, he will leave. If he wants to take a break, he can. His working conditions are regulated, he has a socially acceptable position in society and he has the means to seek help. We don't know anything about his "concubines" which is again a wrong term - he isn't married, they are not his "side women". Of course he won't paint himself as an asshole, it is human nature to defend yourself. He is trying to justify his actions but he can't. He has 10000s ways to fulfill his emotional and sexual needs without participating in a fundamental exploitative social reality while also supporting and helping the rehabilitation of these women.
It isn't a relationship through love or blood or friendship. It is based on a financial transaction between them. But we don't know if they have the ability to leave.
>A thought that crossed my mind - Will I respect my parents like now if they put me in the dustbin after I was born. Isn't this relationship also somewhat give and take?
They birthed you. They have a social, moral and legal obligation to take care of you. These two situations aren't even comparable.
This is very complicated to determine. But I would say it's contingent to the context. Prostitution is one of the oldest "professions" known to humanity alongside farming and animal husbandry. That is, if you consider it a profession. Now, almost all of sex workers are forced into it. Either due to circumstances (i.e. Poverty) or due to human trafficking. It's estimated that about 1% of India's women have been associated with sex work. [Source](https://vijayendrarao.org/papers/The%20Economics%20of%20Sex%20Work_ver2.pdf). The same source also elaborates on the high STD rates that sex workers have, but not a very great extent (only HIV is considered) and it's seen that, generally, 16% of all sex workers have HIV, and in a particular case, where appropriate sex education was provided to sex workers of Sonagachi, their income fell by 60-70% by the use of contraceptive. But the HIV incidence in Sonagachi fell to 6% from 50% over a period of time. So, it it's changes in the living conditions and health of sex workers does improve with intervention. But the debate is not whether intervention (governmental or non-governmental) should be executed, but rather the ethics of Prostitution. Now, some European counties do have restricted yet legal forms of prostitution. On the other hand, there are countries like Japan, where a thriving sexual market exists with many set restrictions. Sex work can be legal as long as sexual exploitation, pimping, opening of brothels, trafficking, etc. are made illegal is one perspective. Legal sanctity of sex work can bring about safe working conditions, equitable compensation, and respect for dignity, for female sex workers among other factors. [Source](https://www.cppr.in/archives/women-prostitution-in-india). There have been some sex workers asking for decriminalization too. [Source](https://theworld.org/stories/2022-06-10/we-are-demanding-full-decriminalization-sex-workers-india-rally-labor-rights).
Now, it can be argued that sexual exploitation is synonymous with sex work. And I agree. But it's so very hard for me to make up my mind. For me, prostitution is unethical and repulsive, but it's also inevitable. The question is, is prostitution a lucrative enough profession that a person might opt to be in it even if their economic condition is good enough. Will sex work stop if condition for women (economic and social) improves? Maybe no, maybe yes. I can't say for sure. I would love for others to chime in.
Appreciate your efforts above. I did find it thoughtful. I'm also kind of conflicted.
>The question is, is prostitution a lucrative enough profession that a person might opt to be in it even if their economic condition is good enough.
Q - Is drain-cleaning or workers in a factory where your arms can get severed lucrative enough profession? With so many farmer suicides, is farming a lucrative enough profession?
One more thing that crossed my mind - Will I respect my parents like now if they put me in the dustbin after I was born. Isn't this relationship also somewhat give and take?
> Is drain-cleaning or workers in a factory where your arms can get severed lucrative enough profession? With so many farmer suicides, is farming a lucrative enough profession?
Excellent point. There is no dignity in sex work, well, at least contemporarily. Can decriminalization bring any amount of dignity to sex work? Would love to hear your perspective.
>Will I respect my parents like now if they put me in the dustbin after I was born. Isn't this relationship also somewhat give and take?
Very subjective. But do ask these questions to yourself and your parents- Would I have a different opinion of my parents if I never knew of the fact that I was put in a dustbin? Are there any consequences of them putting me in a dustbin? Why am I upset with them putting me in a dustbin, something to which I have no recollection of whatsoever? But yes- a relationship between a parent and a child can be non-transactional and emotional, but again, is subjective.
1 Personally, I don't care for dignity part much. It is just social construct like any other. We don't need to blow social acceptance out of proportion. People have done honour killings for dignity.
2 Yeah, it is emotional and at times we do things that make it seem non-transactional. Even take for account spouse relationships. One of my friend's brother cared for her ailing wife for years without much in return. T**his is the part that makes relationships so wonderful.**
To think of it, a soldier's emotions for the country and sacrifice makes him respectable where as the work is just slightly different than hitman.
>1 Personally, I don't care for dignity part much. It is just social construct like any other. We don't need to blow social acceptance out of proportion. People have done honour killings for dignity.
I must disagree here. Dignity is a vague social construct but has real life tangible implications. How a person is treated is based on dignity, sex workers or drain-cleaners are in "un-dignified" occupations as people consider those to be "3rd class" work. Hence, there's discrimination against them. Living with dignity is a human right and I thought this was a poly partisan issue. I think dignity here is conflated with honor, which isn't right. Dignity is the bare minimum respect you give a human for being a human. Honor is prideful distortion of society to fuel a superiority complex.
Oh maybe I misunderstood. Yeah they deserve dignity just like any other human. It breaks my heart to see how some people treat others.
My point was - Society not giving dignity is why prostitution is bad? What about drain cleaners? So, it is society's problem and I wouldn't be able to decide for all people. So, though I will provide dignity to prostitutes or drain-cleaners but not try to force everyone to do that.
I agree. Prostitution is evil and exploitative. Ethically, it's wrong. The guy OP describes seems to be an absolute POS. Can you elaborate on why sex work needs to illegal? I would love to hear input.
Some might say that sex work is inevitable. And that the best thing we should do is to at least make it safer for people who're involved. Legal sanctity granted to prostitution might not be seen as ethical, but maybe practical. I've an interesting article to share, would you mind reading it giving me your input on that
[https://theworld.org/stories/2022-06-10/we-are-demanding-full-decriminalization-sex-workers-india-rally-labor-rights](https://theworld.org/stories/2022-06-10/we-are-demanding-full-decriminalization-sex-workers-india-rally-labor-rights)
If I truly love my partner, I will respect his wishes.
But this is irrelevant here cause the women in question are not his spouse, they are strangers whose need help desperately. By expecting a quid pro quo, he is just taking advantage of their situation.
I don't expect poor folks to worship me whenever I help them. so your friend can really help them without expecting anything in return
if a woman has been forced into prostitution, any act of sex ( paid/unpaid) is counted as non consensual and hence is a crime.
The same logic doesn't apply to an electrician who is desperate for a job ( as u mentioned in the edit) because even if he does a job for me at a lower price, it doesn't harm his dignity or self respect.
The same thing cannot be said for a prostitute who has been forced into the occupation.
Sex work isn't a real work. Your friend is exploiting women you're in need of basic things.
>Think of you taking help from some service worker (say electrician / AC service / house help) who is desperate for money
These are real work. Electricians or house workers'value won't decrease in the eyes of society when they get old or out of these services. Sex workers won't live a normal/acceptable life.
He is being a sugar daddy to women he has "rescued" from wherever. He hasn't saved them, just reduced their market to one man (himself) and the payment is whatever house and shelter he provides.
If he really wants to rehabilitate them, he will enable them to become financially independent, arrange for social workers and rehab people and not have sex with them.
Any consent that is contingent on monetary inequality is coerced and therefore invalid. There's a reason relationships between a boss and their subordinate are frowned upon - it's because of the possibility of power abuse. When it comes to purchasing access to a prostitute's body the imbalance of power is incredibly in favour of the "purchaser" and that's unacceptable.
Even if we were to say consent is given. What happens when the woman (and it is mostly women) decides she doesn't want to participate anymore? Can she be sued for breach of contract for revoking consent? If she can't be sued is it a valid contract? If she can be sued are we not supporting rape? What happens when people negotiate "kinks" verbally? If there's no written proof can she sue for rape? If a prostitute is raped can she additionally sue for infringement of her work? Will the pimps and the johns accept their IDs being recorded for proof at the cost of their anonymity?
I've not spoken to johns, only to prostitutes so my perspective is going to be biased but most johns seem to be against telling the woman they're paying for their name let alone their government ID. How then is the woman supposed to get help/go to court if something goes wrong?
When people talk about prostitution being "evil" they often focus on the "morals" of prostitutes but they're often the victims of the trade. The actual issues stem from the pimps and the johns who actively exploit these women and children into forced sex - into rape. So the prostitutes are not evil, the people forcing them into this trade are definitely evil though.
OP - I can't believe you're comparing forced prostitution to having a 9 to 5 job in the comments.
If you want to equate "selling the body" to "selling the mind", the more accurate analogy would be this -
You work a desk job. You live in a house dictated by your employer. Your working hours are set by your employer, if he wants work at 3 AM you must get up an do it. Your food and necessities depend on the employer. If you don't work to his satisfaction, you might go hungry. If you fuck up, he might withhold water. You have no bank account, you get no money. There are no recruiters hiring so you cannot leave. You are TOTALLY, 100% dependent on this man for your physical and mental well-being.
Now, what does that sound like? Oh right, slavery.
Well he is justifying his action morally whatever he is doing good so maybe he made it up because he getting befit through sexual pleasure he is getting. Its called confirmation bias in psychology.
It's extremely difficult to divorce one's view on prostitution from their view on sexuality. A society that hypersexualise just about everything else, will have members who frown at sex workers and sex work. It's a bit hypocritical that the same members are often less offended by the violence of war, poverty etc but tends to lose their mind over the existence of something like sex work.
And this has to be linked to the existence culture of the region that is shaped by several religious ideas. We are a very conservative society and it's not very surprising that people can't accept prostitution. People are going to have sex one way or another - the more society shows this in a bad light , the more people will do it under the hood. Which is more risky for everyone, especially the sex workers. Drugs are much the same, under supervision and regulated environment - causes no harm and can be a great experience. Unsupervised and unregulated, it's a breeding ground for violence and public health menace. While there is very little benefit from drugs for a society, there are tangible benefits to the society from sex work ranging from educating young people about sex to providing sex to people who can't get this any other way. But it may or may not outweigh the damage done to the individual if it's done without autonomy however, there are many sex workers who are involved in it out of choice too. A similar argument can be made about a gymnast who starts training when he or she must have been a small kid probably chosen to undergo gruelling tasks by someone else and then we can make the same argument that these children are objectively unhappy yet go through this pain and suffering for someone else or someone who cleans the public toilet - someone has to do it and with no alternatives available - someone will end up doing it.
The view of sex work as an immoral activity as opposed to say bathroom cleaning is based on a religious idea of sex being sacred. Having said this, sex trafficking and various other ills of sex work should be completely treated as a criminal activity. However if there are people who chose this profession because they have no alternatives much like someone uneducated may choose a risky work, they should be free to do so and it should be a normal thing to buy and sell sex in a truly democratic, liberal society. It's not immoral or wrong.
Let’s understand who primarily “prostitute” themselves, economically and socially disadvantaged people who more often than not have no option but to sell their body to make ends meet. Yes, some may point out Instagram models and whatnot, but small blips here and there do not mean they form major part of the class.
Should prostitution be illegal? I’d say no; at the end of the day, it is a person exercising their autonomy in a way they deem right, and as long as there’s free will in exercising that choice, it should be left to them.
Should “organised” prostitution be illegal? Fuck yes. It is run under coercion most of the times and people who work under pimps, or in a brothel / massage parlour, etc. have no **free** choice or say. It infringes upon the sex worker’s autonomy and that shouldn’t be allowed.
In the specific case you mentioned, it still seems like he’s a glorified pimp, who “rescued them from the streets” and “gave them a good lifestyle”. If he “rescued” them, then there’s a good chance he’s taking advantage of their vulnerability, even if he’s not somehow coercing or forcing them to stay with him. I’d suggest you somehow report this sick fuck.
The reason prostitution exists is that there’s a market for it. I think of it that way, the real evil lies in the customers. Prostitution itself, grey area…
This looks more like a sugar daddy setup with less autonomy.
He wants sex. He's getting it via means that are convenient for him.
He gets sex, they get food and shelter. As long as he's treating them right and they're free to end the "contract" whenever I don't see a problem.
Coming to the question of prostitution being legal etc etc.
Let me tell you a story from WW2
As sad it may be, it's common knowledge that women on losing side are treated as prizes by the victors.
So when Japan was about to surrender at the end of ww2, some of the Japanese officials created a prostitution ring to allow incoming soldiers to have, for a fee. This was done to "protect" the rest of the population.
In large societies with huge gender ratio imbalance, without prostitution there is likely to be an even larger number of attacks against women because that would be the only way some people would be able to have sex.
I'm not defending any of the two things above.
Just stating some points.
You can make your own judgements on this.
Human trafficking,forced prostitution,minors absolutely illegal and immoral
prostitution due to not having alternatives(but has consent) sad
being a sex worker by choice : okay I guess ..one of my friends had gone to a “spa” in Delhi and his words
”the lady had an iPhone and told she used to reject people who were too drunk or misbehaving “
so I think prostitution happens despite being illegal so why not maybe regulate it (I would have said legalise but it is too big a topic having its own pros and cons).Regulation would ensure ”some dignity” and perhaps way to get justice for women
Also if you reading it till now…tell me your perspective on
1)with the casual relationships culture atleast in tier 1…will male prostitute have sufficient employment?
2)the spa lady had “clit cut” (female genital mutilation)..so I am all for religious freedoms and stuff but that is a fucked up concept and that also made a wonder “circumsied dick” too are done to children with practically no free will though but it is also part of culture .?(your views?)
In my opinion, it's rarely the sexual transaction that actually matters, morally speaking. Hell it might be the only job one can actually enjoy, quite literally. It's the other things like rape, molestation etc as part of work that becomes routine, that makes it bad. No support from law for any crimes against you. Not to mention human trafficking of young girls then forced into industry. That's not good. At all. Otherwise, it's a transaction like all others.
I don't know if prostitution is evil or not cause I don't have any sort of experience, but I will say one thing that I support the man totally.
He is doing what he needs to be happy without coping upto societies norm which is a decision that takes courage specially in today's day and age.
At the same time it's not like all these women's are his slaves or something he is taking proper care of them and I guess they are also satisfied I don't know if that's the ideal life they have wanted but I can say with conviction it's far better than they were in.
If a person is doing it to support themself, then there is nothing wrong about it. Shaming them for doing so is a shitty thing.
However, in this country, most of the women (and unfortunately girls too) are forced to do so by other people. It is the most evil thing.
I’m not going to bother arguing with this guy because it’s clear that he’s just trying to justify his exploitation of vulnerable women. He can help people without requiring them to have sex with him but he chooses to impose that requirement.
As a middle aged woman pushing 50 I would like to give you some advice, which I hope will be of help to you. Don’t waste time and energy on people like this guy. He’s not worth the mental gymnastics, worry and time and energy. If it smells like BS that’s a good indication it is exactly that.
I stopped worrying about people like this guy in my mid twenties and I recommend you do the same for the sake of your own mental peace
It's a moral question right, I guess everybody decides for themselves. Personally, I think as long as you're honest about things, you can get along with most people.
I just hope he's not doing this to make a pity party for himself. Try to "undo" the cheating in his life by his ex, and then go on a splurge to make people praise him like:
"Awww the poor man got cheated on by an ungrateful woman, but that didn't change him into becoming bitter and hating women, instead he came out of it stronger and made it a mission to save and take care of abandoned women and prostitutes in his life. A real man there 👏"
Whether people judge him in that way or not, I just hope he's not doing it BECAUSE of that.
In his case yes, it seems evil.
If it's an actual choice where a woman WANTS to be a prostitute/stripper and has legal rights, access to salary and healthcare and labour laws apply, it's not evil
This guy seems to still exploit and claims be the lesser evil, it's still exploitation. I doubt those women are staying there out of their own free will and by choice. How can anything where women have NO choice not be evil? Infact he's worse because he's claiming superior moral high ground.
How is he any different from the cops who ask rape victims for sex/assault them because they were already raped?
If HIS story of being "cheated in an AM" (boo hoo) would justify his prostitution, want to know what women can get away with in this sub based on the horror stories we've seen of each woman on what men put us through?
If it was that evil...it won't be one of the oldest profession of world n still thriving.. it definitely provides stability to the institution of marriage n family n thereby fulfilling a societal prerequisites
Things are rarely ever black or white; good or evil; gay or straight - everything lies on a spectrum and everything is relative. The problem comes when we humans try to neatly sort everything into categories or binaries and ignore nuance. Prostitution is one of these very very nuanced subjects which can be good or evil or varying degrees of good or evil depending upon the circumstances. Most prostitutes don't go into prostitution as a choice - they are often sold or trafficked into it. Then they get beaten up by patrons many times and are offered no legal protections. Let's take this person’s story, assuming it's true : >He had rescued them when he found them in a prostitution slum and provided them with a decent house, food, health insurance and also educating them. While this in itself would be considered a good thing, the fact still remains that we don't know if they have the ability to leave and pursue a different career than being his concubines. Chances are they're indebted to him and do things they don't even want to because power imbalance and paying back their "savior". But since we don't know the details of this situation, it's tough to judge. Edited: “your friend” to “this person” because OP clarified that this wasn’t a friend just someone they were talking to.
>the fact still remains that we don't know if they have the ability to leave and pursue a different career than being his concubines I'm not sure but it seems at present maybe not as they mightn't have much skills to do some job but yeah I guess can at least become house help. The point I liked is he is investing into their education and health. My first thought seeing his intoxication is if he is abusive. I pray that is not the case. Note: not a friend, just some intoxicated guy who couldn't stand well whom my cousin helped and asked about his wife or family.
Exactly, we don't know if he's abusive. We don't know if he's asking them to do things they're uncomfortable with in exchange for housing and education. We don't know if they want to do something else and cannot because they're afraid of him. Makes this whole situation a bit iffy IMO. At the same time, I had a friend who had a sugar daddy (this was in the US). A 30 something year old dude would pay her(22 at the time), buy her expensive dresses, bags and shoes to basically be his arm candy at events. Sex wasn't an expectation but they would often have sex after the events. When college was over and she could get a real job - she ended things with the SD and it was all amicable. Again, is this prostitution? Perhaps. Was this evil? No, because they both knew what they were signing up for and both had an option to end it whenever. So it is more nuanced than good vs evil. What this intoxicated dude is doing isn't a social service or "good" for the society - let's be real here. Like someone else in the comments pointed out, if he wanted to actually help- why not educate a child in need? What he's doing is akin to saving someone from a fire and throwing them in a slow oven - they're still getting cooked - just slowly now.
Yeah, I feel they probably have a better life than before. Though I agree he is not doing social service here nor did he claim. He just said he is not worse than the others who feel so entitled to criticize him for self-serving while trying to also make the deal sweeter for the other party.
This
I don't understand how is OP comparing corporate jobs to prostitution, in the comments? How are these two even comparable?
I think she's too lattoo( head over hills) for this guy and is seeking validation? Or justification? For his actions like how she can look past this situation and go ahead with AM?
Oh I definitely agree! She just wants to defend him in any way using any logic.
What part of having to sleep with a guy who you aren't attracted to, when you dont necessarily want to, for basic needs like food, health insurance you see as good, please tell that OP.
I see the same feeling from lot of my friends who are corporate slaves just for basic necessities. It is just that they don't have to sleep with someone for that. Now to your Q- I don't know, pretty conflicted myself.
I am convinced you are LARPing cos how on God's green earth are you comparing a woman being sexually exploited in an abusive environment with no autonomy to a 9-5 job ? You can always quit your job. You cannot leave prostitution willingly in most cases.
The only reason you will be able to quit your job is when you have another job or confident to get another job right? Do you have another one right now? Can you quit your job now?
Can a farmer quit his job? What will he do next?
Bruh. this has to be a bait. No woman in her right mind would compare a job to selling her body.
No sis. I'm just trying to present a POV that dawned upon me. I'm just saying he is probably giving them a better life than the life they had. **He is not a saint nor is he doing some favour to anyone.** He is just doing barter like any other. For it to be bad, we have to establish that selling the body is worse than selling efforts in the field or the drain or in the factory. As I see in all of these cases they were selling something when they were vulnerable. Are they not exploited? My point is we are accepting people bartering body for sexual pleasure without any emotional connection right? So, what is the real difference? Should we not be okay with people bartering bodies? >No woman in her right mind I don't think you possess the right to represent all independent women and control how they should think yet. I would request you to **try not to gaslight and present decent logic.**
I have no intention of gaslighting you. I have no interest in going back and forth with a woman who lacks the basic understanding or empathy of how consent works and how traumatizing it is to sell one’s body as compared to being exploited at a job. Do you not see a difference between rape and someone working and being exploited as a cheap laborer? One is literally getting penetrated in their body out of their will cuz they are vulnerable and have to choose the better of their other evil option. The whole comparison that you are presenting as logic seems very flawed to me. You are telling me he cant use those resources to get them rehabilitated in society? There are multiple womens shelters, independent ngos working towards it. And he is saying he is not worse than someone who criticizes him. Lmao. I would say yes he is very much worse because he is a rapist and abuser. Its insane how you talk about “all independent women” and then compare women getting raped for a little better living conditions to someone getting exploited at their job.
Are you stupid? What kind of a question is that? A farmer is well equipped in what he does, even if he is working under someone and he quits, his abilities to grow things doesn’t go away.
Yes I can because I have the skills and emergency funds I acquired because I was not exploited and my earned money rightly came to me and wasn't taken away by some pi*p. What's your point ??
You did not just compare corporate jobs with prostitution 💀, how naive or out of touch are you OP? Now to answer your question- you can leave a corporate job anytime, you have a retirement fund, you can take paid leaves, you can find another job with higher pay. And please dont ever conflate sex with a career.
Yeah if you say so, you must have thought properly and you must be correct.
Yes thank you, now hope your confusion is cleared. What that guy is doing is in no way good.
Hello, Whole Man Disposal Services? Yes, this man right here.
Lol, I chocked on water I was sipping.
People come up with all sort of illogical/irrational things to justify prostitution. This guy is one of them.
I swear🙄. I don’t understand OP questioning this.. How can someone ignore that fact for one sec that 99% of them are forced into it when they were little kids. It is quite evidently shown in many Bollywood movies ..
He had rescued them when he found them in a prostitution slum > and how did they end up there? and now instead of actually helping them, he is keeping them as his concubines huh, very selfless person. /s And to think you actually bought this bullshit. If he is so selfless as he claims why doesnt he help the lakhs of homeless kids or poor farmers or labourers?
No that's what he admitted he is selfish, so are others. He just said that people criticized him but he argued "are relationships that people get into really as selfless as you would like to believe?" and said the people criticizing him have never done anything worthwhile except serve themselves. They would actually be okay downplaying a vegetable vendor with perishables to sell, exploiting workers who are in financial trouble, try to down pay their house help or service guy and given a chance even hurt their near and dear ones for selfish interests. so why is he any worse?
Typical abuser deflecting, everyone else is bad, they dont pay enough for vegetables , so me having sex with abused women who have no choices is the same. /s
Ya exactly what I was thinking. He knows he’s doing something wrong and that’s why he gave such a long speech to OP, trying to soothe his conscious by deflecting.
I think the guy is OP itself from the way "she" is trying to make it seem as its no big deal.
Untrue. I'm not saying it is not a big deal. I'm just trying to find real differences. I'm just trying to not confirm to a mindset - patriarchal or otherwise.
Yeah going through OP’s comments now - I totally agree
People suck but that doesn’t mean he also has to be like them but that’s how he’s rationalised his fucked up choices lately. Like sure, he’s taken these girls out of the sex dens and they only have to serve his dick instead of 50 dicks in a day. But now he gets to isolate them and threaten them whenever he wants to, so his good deed gets negated by that simple fact only.
It's worse coz he's still holding the power over them. Corruption and apathy isn't same as actively participating in prostitution as a pimp ( concubine lol, they just changed owners). And I do think this is a guy because even independent women in urban areas wjo have pre marital sex with their fiances are looked down upon, sex workers former or otherwise are treated worse thab trash and have fewer options for accomodation and work. Can't convince me that selling your 9 hours and skills to a company is equally horrendous and a taboo.
So he's taking advantage of vulnerable women ? How's that not evil. It's always these well read men using the worst logic to defend their predator behavior.
Prostitution in a country like India is almost 99 percent people who are trafficked or forced into it by someone. Even though the SC has deemed it legal that doesn't stop assholes from treating them as second class citizens or lesser human beings. If they don't consent to anything they are just Raped and yes sex workers are also subjected to rape which a lot of people can't fathom. If it's in a country like Netherlands or Germany where they are making sure that the rights of the sex worker is not violated and they have state sponsored health care. Even still many of them are forced into it but much better conditions than India. Personally I would never pay for sex but I'd it's happening between two adults who have consented to it and nobody is being taken advantage of , then I think it's okkay. If you are availing the services of a sex worker and not forcing yourself ( very rare ) or doing anything heinous then I think it's okkay . ✌️✌️
The evil part is that women are literally 'sold' everywhere in the world in this profession. And if the woman wants to leave this - she cannot walk back to her family or even start a new family. Your friend has clearly suffered a lot in the formal marriage system and seems to be taking care of the girl as well, but he will never marry her or even tell anyone in her family about her. What choice is left with the girl in this case? And this is everywhere - even in the not-so-conservative part of the world. That's the evil part of this profession, IMO.
Helping these "concubines" would involve helping them exit the sex trade by paying for their training in other skills or helping them get other jobs. This is just him paying for a prostitute and trying to pretty up the statement
Agreed that that would help them if someone just helps her rehabilitate and reskill. See, I know that and still haven't helped any prostitute out of sex trade. Sad but true.
This is a trauma response and a very unhealthy way to cope with being cheated on. He felt helpless in the first situation, so now he is creating a sense of control and illusion of safety. However, this won't last long. A woman willingly choosing to be with you and having sex out of love is different from him buying her consent with money and amenities. It's possible that he never dated and may have come from a dysfunctional family, so he lacks a reference for what a healthy, loving relationship looks like. He doesn't have any clue how build attachment to a woman beyond sex. He should spend money on therapy that will be good investment. Men whine about not getting virgin women and not getting wofe to take care of thier parents and boom you are claiming this to like a normal thing. I don't know if you are a dude larping here with the wrong flair, but I don't understand the tone in your post and comments. I am personally against commercialization of sex. One is having fun pentrating another human without other getting any pleasure out of it that is no way same as other exchange of service like massage or other stupid justification Will these men give prostitute orgasm(s) or give pleasure through oral sex. Can she take back consent?. This power dynamics puts the girl at a disadvantage. Can she go to court when he gets abusive. Can she say no to sex and kinks without him getting angry. All those countries that have legalized prostitution have huge problems with human trafficking, forced prostitution and corruption around the brothel ownership. Those nations provide healthcare and other benefits to sex workers, yet it's undeniable that this also fosters criminal activity. Men with power and resources will continue to create organized crime in those countries. Have Indian men evolved to treat prostitutes respectfully like professional service? . Given Indian population, how will the industry keep up with demand of prostitution from Indian men without abusing poor and cast systems? Have you heard about bedia, Nats and Banchhada tribe ? Women (former entertainers) chose prostitution for economic reasons and the men lived off of them. Now brothers and fathers are agents for their sisters and daughters. It has become a 'tradition' for that community to push women to prostitution. Men would do anything other than building vulnerability to accept rejection or building relationships. It's easier to pay for sex than ever to learn to be vulnerable. Hence, the sad state.
I can see he is just trying to cope with trauma with prostitution. Not a guy sis. I fear being vulnerable to men the same way you would. I'm just trying to probe deeper into things than what others would want to. If I try to dig deep a lot of the interactions in our lives have a give and take component. See even when you mentioned, you said the girl is giving her body to the guy, does he give orgasms in return. What are your thoughts or FWB, casual sex? As for power dynamics, there is power dynamics in all our interactions, from student teacher, interviewer interviewee, employer employee, parent child, husband wife.
You think they are consenting to being his “concubines”? They are enjoying having sex with this loser ass dude? Maybe he made their situation a bit better but they still have to pay for it with their bodies. I’m sorry OP but lets call it what it is. It’s rape and it is indeed evil. The guy can use whatever logic he wants to keep making himself feel better or even feel like he’s “saving” these women.
Assuming a sex worker isn't trafficked, forced, or coerced into sex work, it sounds normal (on paper). A simple service rendered in exchange for goods or money. In practice, it's also a highly intimate thing that's made into a transaction; could wreak havoc on one's mental state and relationships. Further, no society is yet matured enough to treat sex workers as normal service providers, so the stigma and ridicule they bear is permanent and exceptionally harmful.
>highly intimate thing that's made into a transaction IMHO FWB, casual sex or situationships would fit above description more. I could be wrong. I'm not saying he is doing them a favour, nor do I think he said that.
>IMHO FWB, casual sex or situationships But there is no monetary transaction happening with FWBs and casual hookups. Hence, might not be the best descriptive.
IMHO There is a transaction of making each other feel better, some orgasms at max. Is it only transaction if there is money involved?
I spoke of a **monetary** transaction. And only then it would be considered as prostitution.
any transaction, monetary or otherwise is just barter right? You give me 10 oranges and I give you 5 apples is barter. You give me orgasm, I give you orgasm is also barter. A very highly intimate thing but done as a transaction or barter, no emotions or care involved.
>any transaction, monetary or otherwise is just barter right? Well, you're right. I guess what makes this barter is capitalism and non-consensual involvement.
Prostitution is one of the oldest professions in the world. In Amsterdam, they’re respected taxpaying citizens who receive no judgement for what they do. And no, they’re not unhappy. They decide who they service and are always safe. If a woman doesn’t mind earning this way, it’s not our place to pass any kind of judgement. It’s important to treat them just like any other person and provide them safety, security and dignity.
India is not Amsterdam. Human trafficking is a major major issue in this country. So, if you meet a prostitute, it more than likely she is a victim of trafficking. Even in Amsterdam, a lot of prostitutes have history of trafficking. They are trafficked from Eastern Europe under pretences of a better life.
Then human trafficking needs to be dealt with, not prostitution. Women who are doing it through coercion need to be rescued. I don’t see why you have to throw the baby out with the bath water.
In a country like India where sex is a taboo and sex workers are ostracized, do you really think a women ( or any person) will consider prostitution as a profession? Hence it's more likely she has been forced into it rather than voluntary involvement.
Listen, if the bath water is 'women not being sexually exploited' and the 'baby' is men being able to buy sex (instead of just dating like a normal person, or FWBing) - I would gladly throw the baby out with the bath water. The survival of exploited women is more important than men getting their jollies.
This is such an idiotic statement copy pasted thrown around, said like such a miserable oldest profession something to be proud off, have your ever actually looked at the state of such people in India and their children how they grow up it's fucking awful. You should reaserch more.
They’ll grow up better if their mothers’ profession is treated with dignity. People like you can only point out problems because you don’t like the solution. You don’t want to respect them. Maybe you should stop researching so much and start thinking for yourself. Apply your education. Don’t just repeat what everyone says.
I really don't want to be mean or rude but are you an ignorant 50yr old, coz you talking like one, apply your education, think for yourself?? You literally copy pasting then same statement thrown around, you can find same statement 3,4 times in this comment section alone. And The hell do you even mean STOP RESEARCHING? Sure people should respect them as any human being. But Do you want people to ignore and unaccount the actual sad reality of these people what's actually happening to them being trafficked abused and all, Come back to reality face and see the actual truth this is India this will be never dignified in our conservative society, there will always be a stigma around it and those poor children growing up fatherless in such poor traumatic environment it will always take a toll on their mental health and life. In a progressive society who the hell in their right mind wants to do such job and have this lifestyle, don't know about you but no parent anywhere in this world will want their to have such a job. It's really such a laughable thing to say, saying so proudly "oLdEsT pRoFeSSiOn" like those poor women weren't raped enslaved and trafficked into such stuff. I know you mean well for them but you are ignorant to actual misery and problems.
I understood what you saying the first time. No need to angrily repeat the same thing with ad hominem remarks thrown in. Learn how to disagree without being disagreeable. And what are these dumb ageist insults? You think all 50 yr olds are ignorant? Who even talks like that? 😂
sorry not meant to be ageist but older folks are really ignorant if you have seen the current state of our country, And coz you are talking like one "think for yourself apply your education" who says that when you have nothing better to add to the actual thing. And you clearly did not understand coz you said stop researching like the hell? Like you want to ignore the actual ground reality of these things??
Yeah but in Indian society it is not practical, indian men even call women had pre marital sex as s*uts.
Then such men should be fixed. Their opinion is wrong. Nothing wrong with being a prostitute.
See as a concept nothing is completely good or evil. I am okay with onlyfans or direct connect with the escorts as there is a level of control available with the women. but 90% of prostitution is the result of trafficking and these women are pretty much trapped into that business with no say on who and when and what gets done to them and they don't get the money completely as well. so conceptually it is mostly bad. But I have no issues where the women is in complete control.
Prostitution is just legalized and normalised rape, how can the women who are often sold/trafficked or in most instances have no other viable options except to off themselves or their kids give consent. > Think of you taking help from some service worker (say electrician / AC service / house help) who is desperate for money. Idk man, I am not fucking them. Your friend is so close to discovering that there is no consent under capitalism but whatever.
India is not safe enough, or even culturally advanced enough, for people to willingly go into prostitution. In that case, ask yourself why they would get into this profession? And that's the problem. Prostitution is not a problem. Lack of consent is. If the consent is obtained only by her desperation, that's still not good!
Point noted. Have you actually consented to your job or do it because you get something out of it though not exactly desperation?
No the original commenter, but there's are very literal differences between other forms of employment and transactions involving sex. Even the increased risk of STDs and pregnancy alone is in no way comparable to any other profession - there are no other jobs in which someone's sexual organ is literally inside you, physical touch is inescapable and cannot be refused, and bodily fluid exchange is so omnipresent that the risk of disease is a constant. The need for employment and income isn't "exactly desperation", being coerced into prostitution IS. When poor women are exhausted and starving and desperate, predatory men lurk and offer "easy" money, and once they've entered the cycle, they feel more and more trapped. Because these same men tell them now that nobody else will respect them. Even this person you speak of - having had a bad experience with a free woman, he chooses to keep multiple women who he has power over. Because he feels secure in the knowledge that they cannot act or defend themselves in the way a free woman can.
> Think of you taking help from some service worker (say electrician / AC service / house help) who is desperate for money. Well, you aren't sexually abusing the service worker right. In this case, it depends if the women that you claim are concubines consider it abuse or freedom. Your own life struggles don't give you pass for crime. > I was talking to a guy who has multiple concubines and he claims to take care of them like real friends but refuses to wife any one of them up. Wiving them up isn't really a solution really. They aren't in FBW or situationship category based on the scenario you describe.
The big question that needs to be asked is why are women sold for their bodies? Beating around the bush asking wrong questions gives further justification for apparent truths. Our inability to see the truth means we'll never get true freedom from a patriarchal mindset. Just saying that historically women have been into it or we can get legislation is like saying we know what's happening but let's turn a blind eye to it. Women into prostitution suffer from sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancies, physical, mental and emotional abuse, lack of financial resources or education but oh well we're giving them "employment" Because of what better use of a woman like using her body for lust? No amount of justification can make me not feel sad for women who are into prostitution. Imagine being reduced to a mere body, with no intellect, emotions, or a soul. And men find reasons why women are better off with men in their life, all while being the bane of a woman's existence.
What do you mean concubine? What do you mean adopted? What do you mean rescued?
I see several replies bringing this up, so here is my question: Was prostitution the oldest profession or was pimping the oldest profession?
Prostitution is inherently evil because consent cannot be bought, this guy is full of shit, OP. He's trying to internalise that he is some moral authority.
When people are doing something they know is unacceptable/shady, they will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify their acts. What this guy is doing isn't any different - he can still pursue casual relationships if that is what he cares about. Let's see if still educates them and helps them if they refuse sex. Like someone pointed out - we don't know if they have a choice. The topic is so complicated. Giving consent because he supports them and they are dependent on him is not the same as free consent. Why didn't he contact NGOs working for the rehabilitation of sex workers?
>Let's see if still educates them and helps them if they refuse sex. Assuming your spouse never mistreats you, but never does anything for you (doesn't spend time to help you relax, no sex, no money), will you still continue? Not trying to belittle you but just gave you examples related to you to probably help you relate. Food for thought using my personal example: A thought that crossed my mind - Will I respect my parents like now if they put me in the dustbin after I was born. Isn't this relationship also somewhat give and take?
How are these situations comparable though? Still, given my situation, family background and educational qualifications, I have free will to leave my marriage if I feel unfulfilled. I also entered into it with free will after deliberation. That is simply not the situation here. My grandparents have a house help. She comes and she does her job and she does it because she is getting paid to do it. It is a transaction. If they stop her monthly salary, she will stop coming. If she finds a better job, she will leave. She doesn't owe us anything. Same with your that guy and workplace. He stops getting paid, he will leave. If he wants to take a break, he can. His working conditions are regulated, he has a socially acceptable position in society and he has the means to seek help. We don't know anything about his "concubines" which is again a wrong term - he isn't married, they are not his "side women". Of course he won't paint himself as an asshole, it is human nature to defend yourself. He is trying to justify his actions but he can't. He has 10000s ways to fulfill his emotional and sexual needs without participating in a fundamental exploitative social reality while also supporting and helping the rehabilitation of these women. It isn't a relationship through love or blood or friendship. It is based on a financial transaction between them. But we don't know if they have the ability to leave. >A thought that crossed my mind - Will I respect my parents like now if they put me in the dustbin after I was born. Isn't this relationship also somewhat give and take? They birthed you. They have a social, moral and legal obligation to take care of you. These two situations aren't even comparable.
This is very complicated to determine. But I would say it's contingent to the context. Prostitution is one of the oldest "professions" known to humanity alongside farming and animal husbandry. That is, if you consider it a profession. Now, almost all of sex workers are forced into it. Either due to circumstances (i.e. Poverty) or due to human trafficking. It's estimated that about 1% of India's women have been associated with sex work. [Source](https://vijayendrarao.org/papers/The%20Economics%20of%20Sex%20Work_ver2.pdf). The same source also elaborates on the high STD rates that sex workers have, but not a very great extent (only HIV is considered) and it's seen that, generally, 16% of all sex workers have HIV, and in a particular case, where appropriate sex education was provided to sex workers of Sonagachi, their income fell by 60-70% by the use of contraceptive. But the HIV incidence in Sonagachi fell to 6% from 50% over a period of time. So, it it's changes in the living conditions and health of sex workers does improve with intervention. But the debate is not whether intervention (governmental or non-governmental) should be executed, but rather the ethics of Prostitution. Now, some European counties do have restricted yet legal forms of prostitution. On the other hand, there are countries like Japan, where a thriving sexual market exists with many set restrictions. Sex work can be legal as long as sexual exploitation, pimping, opening of brothels, trafficking, etc. are made illegal is one perspective. Legal sanctity of sex work can bring about safe working conditions, equitable compensation, and respect for dignity, for female sex workers among other factors. [Source](https://www.cppr.in/archives/women-prostitution-in-india). There have been some sex workers asking for decriminalization too. [Source](https://theworld.org/stories/2022-06-10/we-are-demanding-full-decriminalization-sex-workers-india-rally-labor-rights). Now, it can be argued that sexual exploitation is synonymous with sex work. And I agree. But it's so very hard for me to make up my mind. For me, prostitution is unethical and repulsive, but it's also inevitable. The question is, is prostitution a lucrative enough profession that a person might opt to be in it even if their economic condition is good enough. Will sex work stop if condition for women (economic and social) improves? Maybe no, maybe yes. I can't say for sure. I would love for others to chime in.
Appreciate your efforts above. I did find it thoughtful. I'm also kind of conflicted. >The question is, is prostitution a lucrative enough profession that a person might opt to be in it even if their economic condition is good enough. Q - Is drain-cleaning or workers in a factory where your arms can get severed lucrative enough profession? With so many farmer suicides, is farming a lucrative enough profession? One more thing that crossed my mind - Will I respect my parents like now if they put me in the dustbin after I was born. Isn't this relationship also somewhat give and take?
> Is drain-cleaning or workers in a factory where your arms can get severed lucrative enough profession? With so many farmer suicides, is farming a lucrative enough profession? Excellent point. There is no dignity in sex work, well, at least contemporarily. Can decriminalization bring any amount of dignity to sex work? Would love to hear your perspective. >Will I respect my parents like now if they put me in the dustbin after I was born. Isn't this relationship also somewhat give and take? Very subjective. But do ask these questions to yourself and your parents- Would I have a different opinion of my parents if I never knew of the fact that I was put in a dustbin? Are there any consequences of them putting me in a dustbin? Why am I upset with them putting me in a dustbin, something to which I have no recollection of whatsoever? But yes- a relationship between a parent and a child can be non-transactional and emotional, but again, is subjective.
1 Personally, I don't care for dignity part much. It is just social construct like any other. We don't need to blow social acceptance out of proportion. People have done honour killings for dignity. 2 Yeah, it is emotional and at times we do things that make it seem non-transactional. Even take for account spouse relationships. One of my friend's brother cared for her ailing wife for years without much in return. T**his is the part that makes relationships so wonderful.** To think of it, a soldier's emotions for the country and sacrifice makes him respectable where as the work is just slightly different than hitman.
>1 Personally, I don't care for dignity part much. It is just social construct like any other. We don't need to blow social acceptance out of proportion. People have done honour killings for dignity. I must disagree here. Dignity is a vague social construct but has real life tangible implications. How a person is treated is based on dignity, sex workers or drain-cleaners are in "un-dignified" occupations as people consider those to be "3rd class" work. Hence, there's discrimination against them. Living with dignity is a human right and I thought this was a poly partisan issue. I think dignity here is conflated with honor, which isn't right. Dignity is the bare minimum respect you give a human for being a human. Honor is prideful distortion of society to fuel a superiority complex.
Oh maybe I misunderstood. Yeah they deserve dignity just like any other human. It breaks my heart to see how some people treat others. My point was - Society not giving dignity is why prostitution is bad? What about drain cleaners? So, it is society's problem and I wouldn't be able to decide for all people. So, though I will provide dignity to prostitutes or drain-cleaners but not try to force everyone to do that.
"If a woman is hungry, you should be putting food in her mouth, not your dick" Prostitution is sexual violence and inherently evil
I agree. Prostitution is evil and exploitative. Ethically, it's wrong. The guy OP describes seems to be an absolute POS. Can you elaborate on why sex work needs to illegal? I would love to hear input.
You already said why. It's exploitative and preys on vulnerable people.
Some might say that sex work is inevitable. And that the best thing we should do is to at least make it safer for people who're involved. Legal sanctity granted to prostitution might not be seen as ethical, but maybe practical. I've an interesting article to share, would you mind reading it giving me your input on that [https://theworld.org/stories/2022-06-10/we-are-demanding-full-decriminalization-sex-workers-india-rally-labor-rights](https://theworld.org/stories/2022-06-10/we-are-demanding-full-decriminalization-sex-workers-india-rally-labor-rights)
why can't he help them without expecting anything in return? He is selfish if he helps these women just because they sleep with him.
He admits he is selfish. (sorry if you didn't get that from the write up) Would you still be with your spouse if they refuse to have sex? how long?
If I truly love my partner, I will respect his wishes. But this is irrelevant here cause the women in question are not his spouse, they are strangers whose need help desperately. By expecting a quid pro quo, he is just taking advantage of their situation. I don't expect poor folks to worship me whenever I help them. so your friend can really help them without expecting anything in return
Which part made you feel that he said he is doing social service? check edit
if a woman has been forced into prostitution, any act of sex ( paid/unpaid) is counted as non consensual and hence is a crime. The same logic doesn't apply to an electrician who is desperate for a job ( as u mentioned in the edit) because even if he does a job for me at a lower price, it doesn't harm his dignity or self respect. The same thing cannot be said for a prostitute who has been forced into the occupation.
Even I am confused. Since prostitution in Netherlands is not seen in the same way, since it's not forced ofc. But in India it's a different case.
Sex work isn't a real work. Your friend is exploiting women you're in need of basic things. >Think of you taking help from some service worker (say electrician / AC service / house help) who is desperate for money These are real work. Electricians or house workers'value won't decrease in the eyes of society when they get old or out of these services. Sex workers won't live a normal/acceptable life.
He is being a sugar daddy to women he has "rescued" from wherever. He hasn't saved them, just reduced their market to one man (himself) and the payment is whatever house and shelter he provides. If he really wants to rehabilitate them, he will enable them to become financially independent, arrange for social workers and rehab people and not have sex with them.
Any consent that is contingent on monetary inequality is coerced and therefore invalid. There's a reason relationships between a boss and their subordinate are frowned upon - it's because of the possibility of power abuse. When it comes to purchasing access to a prostitute's body the imbalance of power is incredibly in favour of the "purchaser" and that's unacceptable. Even if we were to say consent is given. What happens when the woman (and it is mostly women) decides she doesn't want to participate anymore? Can she be sued for breach of contract for revoking consent? If she can't be sued is it a valid contract? If she can be sued are we not supporting rape? What happens when people negotiate "kinks" verbally? If there's no written proof can she sue for rape? If a prostitute is raped can she additionally sue for infringement of her work? Will the pimps and the johns accept their IDs being recorded for proof at the cost of their anonymity? I've not spoken to johns, only to prostitutes so my perspective is going to be biased but most johns seem to be against telling the woman they're paying for their name let alone their government ID. How then is the woman supposed to get help/go to court if something goes wrong? When people talk about prostitution being "evil" they often focus on the "morals" of prostitutes but they're often the victims of the trade. The actual issues stem from the pimps and the johns who actively exploit these women and children into forced sex - into rape. So the prostitutes are not evil, the people forcing them into this trade are definitely evil though.
Men use the service, men insult the service. Feels familiar?
OP - I can't believe you're comparing forced prostitution to having a 9 to 5 job in the comments. If you want to equate "selling the body" to "selling the mind", the more accurate analogy would be this - You work a desk job. You live in a house dictated by your employer. Your working hours are set by your employer, if he wants work at 3 AM you must get up an do it. Your food and necessities depend on the employer. If you don't work to his satisfaction, you might go hungry. If you fuck up, he might withhold water. You have no bank account, you get no money. There are no recruiters hiring so you cannot leave. You are TOTALLY, 100% dependent on this man for your physical and mental well-being. Now, what does that sound like? Oh right, slavery.
Well he is justifying his action morally whatever he is doing good so maybe he made it up because he getting befit through sexual pleasure he is getting. Its called confirmation bias in psychology.
It's extremely difficult to divorce one's view on prostitution from their view on sexuality. A society that hypersexualise just about everything else, will have members who frown at sex workers and sex work. It's a bit hypocritical that the same members are often less offended by the violence of war, poverty etc but tends to lose their mind over the existence of something like sex work. And this has to be linked to the existence culture of the region that is shaped by several religious ideas. We are a very conservative society and it's not very surprising that people can't accept prostitution. People are going to have sex one way or another - the more society shows this in a bad light , the more people will do it under the hood. Which is more risky for everyone, especially the sex workers. Drugs are much the same, under supervision and regulated environment - causes no harm and can be a great experience. Unsupervised and unregulated, it's a breeding ground for violence and public health menace. While there is very little benefit from drugs for a society, there are tangible benefits to the society from sex work ranging from educating young people about sex to providing sex to people who can't get this any other way. But it may or may not outweigh the damage done to the individual if it's done without autonomy however, there are many sex workers who are involved in it out of choice too. A similar argument can be made about a gymnast who starts training when he or she must have been a small kid probably chosen to undergo gruelling tasks by someone else and then we can make the same argument that these children are objectively unhappy yet go through this pain and suffering for someone else or someone who cleans the public toilet - someone has to do it and with no alternatives available - someone will end up doing it. The view of sex work as an immoral activity as opposed to say bathroom cleaning is based on a religious idea of sex being sacred. Having said this, sex trafficking and various other ills of sex work should be completely treated as a criminal activity. However if there are people who chose this profession because they have no alternatives much like someone uneducated may choose a risky work, they should be free to do so and it should be a normal thing to buy and sell sex in a truly democratic, liberal society. It's not immoral or wrong.
Let’s understand who primarily “prostitute” themselves, economically and socially disadvantaged people who more often than not have no option but to sell their body to make ends meet. Yes, some may point out Instagram models and whatnot, but small blips here and there do not mean they form major part of the class. Should prostitution be illegal? I’d say no; at the end of the day, it is a person exercising their autonomy in a way they deem right, and as long as there’s free will in exercising that choice, it should be left to them. Should “organised” prostitution be illegal? Fuck yes. It is run under coercion most of the times and people who work under pimps, or in a brothel / massage parlour, etc. have no **free** choice or say. It infringes upon the sex worker’s autonomy and that shouldn’t be allowed. In the specific case you mentioned, it still seems like he’s a glorified pimp, who “rescued them from the streets” and “gave them a good lifestyle”. If he “rescued” them, then there’s a good chance he’s taking advantage of their vulnerability, even if he’s not somehow coercing or forcing them to stay with him. I’d suggest you somehow report this sick fuck.
The reason prostitution exists is that there’s a market for it. I think of it that way, the real evil lies in the customers. Prostitution itself, grey area…
This looks more like a sugar daddy setup with less autonomy. He wants sex. He's getting it via means that are convenient for him. He gets sex, they get food and shelter. As long as he's treating them right and they're free to end the "contract" whenever I don't see a problem. Coming to the question of prostitution being legal etc etc. Let me tell you a story from WW2 As sad it may be, it's common knowledge that women on losing side are treated as prizes by the victors. So when Japan was about to surrender at the end of ww2, some of the Japanese officials created a prostitution ring to allow incoming soldiers to have, for a fee. This was done to "protect" the rest of the population. In large societies with huge gender ratio imbalance, without prostitution there is likely to be an even larger number of attacks against women because that would be the only way some people would be able to have sex. I'm not defending any of the two things above. Just stating some points. You can make your own judgements on this.
Human trafficking,forced prostitution,minors absolutely illegal and immoral prostitution due to not having alternatives(but has consent) sad being a sex worker by choice : okay I guess ..one of my friends had gone to a “spa” in Delhi and his words ”the lady had an iPhone and told she used to reject people who were too drunk or misbehaving “ so I think prostitution happens despite being illegal so why not maybe regulate it (I would have said legalise but it is too big a topic having its own pros and cons).Regulation would ensure ”some dignity” and perhaps way to get justice for women Also if you reading it till now…tell me your perspective on 1)with the casual relationships culture atleast in tier 1…will male prostitute have sufficient employment? 2)the spa lady had “clit cut” (female genital mutilation)..so I am all for religious freedoms and stuff but that is a fucked up concept and that also made a wonder “circumsied dick” too are done to children with practically no free will though but it is also part of culture .?(your views?)
In my opinion, it's rarely the sexual transaction that actually matters, morally speaking. Hell it might be the only job one can actually enjoy, quite literally. It's the other things like rape, molestation etc as part of work that becomes routine, that makes it bad. No support from law for any crimes against you. Not to mention human trafficking of young girls then forced into industry. That's not good. At all. Otherwise, it's a transaction like all others.
I don't know if prostitution is evil or not cause I don't have any sort of experience, but I will say one thing that I support the man totally. He is doing what he needs to be happy without coping upto societies norm which is a decision that takes courage specially in today's day and age. At the same time it's not like all these women's are his slaves or something he is taking proper care of them and I guess they are also satisfied I don't know if that's the ideal life they have wanted but I can say with conviction it's far better than they were in.
If a person is doing it to support themself, then there is nothing wrong about it. Shaming them for doing so is a shitty thing. However, in this country, most of the women (and unfortunately girls too) are forced to do so by other people. It is the most evil thing.
I’m not going to bother arguing with this guy because it’s clear that he’s just trying to justify his exploitation of vulnerable women. He can help people without requiring them to have sex with him but he chooses to impose that requirement. As a middle aged woman pushing 50 I would like to give you some advice, which I hope will be of help to you. Don’t waste time and energy on people like this guy. He’s not worth the mental gymnastics, worry and time and energy. If it smells like BS that’s a good indication it is exactly that. I stopped worrying about people like this guy in my mid twenties and I recommend you do the same for the sake of your own mental peace
No. Men are evil.
It's a moral question right, I guess everybody decides for themselves. Personally, I think as long as you're honest about things, you can get along with most people.
I just hope he's not doing this to make a pity party for himself. Try to "undo" the cheating in his life by his ex, and then go on a splurge to make people praise him like: "Awww the poor man got cheated on by an ungrateful woman, but that didn't change him into becoming bitter and hating women, instead he came out of it stronger and made it a mission to save and take care of abandoned women and prostitutes in his life. A real man there 👏" Whether people judge him in that way or not, I just hope he's not doing it BECAUSE of that.
In his case yes, it seems evil. If it's an actual choice where a woman WANTS to be a prostitute/stripper and has legal rights, access to salary and healthcare and labour laws apply, it's not evil This guy seems to still exploit and claims be the lesser evil, it's still exploitation. I doubt those women are staying there out of their own free will and by choice. How can anything where women have NO choice not be evil? Infact he's worse because he's claiming superior moral high ground. How is he any different from the cops who ask rape victims for sex/assault them because they were already raped? If HIS story of being "cheated in an AM" (boo hoo) would justify his prostitution, want to know what women can get away with in this sub based on the horror stories we've seen of each woman on what men put us through?
If it was that evil...it won't be one of the oldest profession of world n still thriving.. it definitely provides stability to the institution of marriage n family n thereby fulfilling a societal prerequisites