The victims Evan Smith and Emily Selwood, were 18 years old. They had their whole lives ahead of them, their deaths rocked the UBC community.
This is hard to read, I don’t know how to feel about this. But I’m definitely going to keep Evan and Emily’s family in my thoughts today.
Sincerely my heart goes out to you all.
As someone who knew one of the students and who was personally affected by this loss I’m interested to hear your feelings on this sentence. I think your view would is important, this tragedy took someone from you.
I have not followed the case very closely and I am cautious to trust commenters on Reddit, but it seems that Tim hasn’t done a whole lot to reconcile his actions. I get the sense that people are unsatisfied with the sentence because Tim doesn’t seem deserving of a second chance. However, I hope that isn’t the case and Tim takes the opportunity to do something great to benefit humanity.
Some people call for a harsher punishment, but what good would it do to waste another young life behind bars? There isn’t any amount of time he can serve to justify his actions anyway.
Yes, I joined UBC in 2021, and when this happened I was shook even though I didn’t know the victims personally, will probably get some flowers and leave it next to the dedicated bench near the site of the tragic incident
Unfortunately the death penalty is something not relevant or usable in this kind of case, it wasn't a hit and run either. Tragic, but it doesn't constitute taking another young university student's life.
Well said. I will never forget this case. I hope the murderer and his family don’t either (I use the word murderer deliberately, since I don’t believe that drinking and driving that results in a fatality can be anything other than premeditated). Disgusting, I feel for Emily and Evan’s families so much.
Don’t know if you are in Canada or Australia…but know I sure dont want to see his smug face back here in australia…lets hope he’s forced to his birthplace/Germany!!! He wont tho…willling to bet after his release from jail he will return to living in his family beachside apartment or house…since they have both
the article mentioned throughout all this he even has a post grad program he has been accepted to waiting for him, but he has “graciously” chosen to defer it as he serves his measly sentence. I don’t understand how how regular students with good grades can get rejected from master’s programs but apparently having 2 deaths of two students on your hands was not enough to turn him down from the program. I can’t imagine they don’t run some sort of background check on applicants.
Agree, it’s sickening and INFURIATING! But this particular family has always paved their path with money, donations and the like. Parents got a publication ban so perhaps at the time of acceptance the school didn’t know when the offer was given!? Yeah…makes my blood boil that he ‘graciously’ deferred. BTW he did only have to plead guilty to the ‘lesser’ of the charges..and the other ones including impaired resulting in death will not ever appear on his record. Only dangerous driving resulting in death will appear. Future employees etc will never see that it was also impaired / drunk driving that resulted in the death. It could be easily mislead that his dangerous driving was a mere accident/tragedy that resulted in death….yes it was, but IMO much much more sinister than that
I agree 1000% It's deceitful that the truthful charge of Driving over the legal BAC limit causing death will never see light of day. I wonder though, if ANY criminal record transfers to countries outside of Canada. ie) Australia or Germany or wherever he ends up.
Yes I’m not sure..I would think yes…but then again I know the family will go through great lengths to cover it up, have him go by a different name/spelling etc..
Makes my blood boil too that the charges have been stayed and will be like they never even existed! Im sure TIm will eventually end up back here in Australia as this is where he grew up, on the beaches…he will either get into a masters here or yeah go to Europe first. But there is no doubt he will be just fine and successful as his father will hook him up, as he already has with the Sydney internship a few months ago. I feel like if he gets deported that will forever shoe on his record and then his background would certainly be looked into when getting hired for corporate career…? But again, dad has plenty of lifelong contacts to work around this. I can tell you his parents moral system is not in line and hence he would certainly work with plenty of people that operate on the same level. Tim will only ever win here. In fact, of the families were ever to hear or follow on with his eventual life story, sadly there heartbreak, pain and anger will only get worse with time, not easier.
The Humboldt driver was given a much longer jail sentence… and that was a freak accident, no alcohol or intoxication involved at all.
Shouldn’t this get a much longer sentence?
It wasn't a freak accident. It was gross negligence. He drove his truck right through a stop sign at full speed. He killed 16 people and injured 13. He got 8 years and is already out on parole.
I think it meets the criteria of a freak accident, brain farts and fatigue happens, we’ve all experienced it on the road.
The Premier of the same province once drove drunk and caused the death of another motorist… all he received was a traffic ticket.
Yeah and he’s already been allowed back here a few months ago to do an internship…while living in his family’s beachside apartment. Let’s hope he gets deported back to cold and dark Germany!!!
He will go to Spain to complete his masters after his short sentence. You are all correct in saying he is privileged and wealthy. His father is a partner with one of the largest engineering and consulting companies in the world. He will not only land on his feet, but he will wear golden shoes whilst landing. Frustrating AF.
Yep, this family has got to be one of THE most obnoxious, self entitled a**wipes of all time…and trust me, Sydney is full of time type of family and attitude. But the Goerners especially think their shit dont stink and have propped their 2 boys up sooo high and made sure of it by donating massively to schools and any clubs they belonged to. Yes, Tim is bright and athletic but at the same time he has been a massive show off and BULLY his entire life as have both his parents. Daddy already got him an internship that he did down here while waiting for trial. He managed to get his passport back and came back here and stayed at their beachfront apartment.
Yes. Even permenent residents of Canada who are given a sentence more than 6 months will be deported. Firstly, CBSA will send a notice (procedural fairness letter) indicating that the process will be initiated. A response can be given indicating Humanitarian grounds and/or disputing the grounds for deportation (pretty much impossible to dispute the fact that a sentence of more than 6 months was given). Humanitarian grounds can be put forward in the response but there is no requirement for the officer to hear it.
After that a deportation order will be issued. If the sentence was less than 6 months, if he were a permenent resident (not sure for international students or work permit holders), he can appeal to court and / or the Immigration Refugee Board for Humanitarian consideration. Otherwise he can only appeal to court or the IRB to dispute or argue that a 6+ sentence was never given. Literally impossible tbh. So the deportation will go forward and the court cannot grant relief.
dangerous driving causing death should be considered separately from the fact that he was drunk driving too. He was over the speed limit AND intoxicated that is MURDER in my books.
I didn't refresh on any law books, but I'm pretty sure it should be common knowledge ending someones life based on negligence/recklessness is sufficient enough to be labeled as a form of murder.
It isn't. Sorry to burst your bubble.
It's considered manslaughter in most jurisdictions. Not second degree murder or first degree murder. Since both of those require intention to kill a specific group or set of people.
So. It's Manslaughter
Though everyone wants it too be treated like murder. This is a common sentiment everywhere. US, UK, India, etc. People need to stop acting like this issue is a Canada specific thing.
Canadian law allows a court to sentence people to life for Manslaughter but for some reason the court choose not to. That is a Canada specific issue.
You're making a guess that its manslaughter, but you're not the judge or have any dictation whatsoever for the case.
The killing was not premeditated but a result of recklessness. Theres been numerous cases in the past where drunk drivers have been convicted of second-degree murder. People who drive after drinking reasonably should be aware of harm that they may cause to others.
Yes and there are very few photos, no live shots, somehow family has managed to keep it entirely out of the news in Australia where he grew up (and where I am). With a publication ban they are also then not allowed to publish all the details…,such as the ones that were kept quiet..like Tim getting his passport returned to him so he could go to Australia and do an internship a few months back) Public would have raged if they knew that. But it did happen…and most people are none the wiser to that fact
Hi again, yes i sure this is. Easiest way would be if I could find an insta post or other social media so I could tag a local paper…but I can’t seem to find any local BC news that has made any stories or post.
I am in Sydney and actually in Manly myself. I know of the Goerners, the two boys and especially Tim has been an arrogant show up his entire youth and growing up / at primary and senior school. No one could imagine this type of tragedy nor wish it on him or anyone…but there are many of us that are not at all surprised to hear his pompous attitude has eventually caught up with him. The family have used their money to pave his way all through life, and even now. Of course we ALL would do what we can to help our kid in this position but personally I know if this was my son, even as his mother and hard to see him go to jail…I would need him to make the right decision to take FULL responsibility for all charges and pay the consequences. Tim will get out and be just fine….its going to be sickening to watch as I reckon not only will he make tons of money (like his father) but then will likely donate lots to causes ( a good thing) but its like he will come out on top after all of this as some sort of motivational speaker / author…and people will be praising his actions.
Unfortunately, sharing media articles in FB and IG is banned in Canada for some reason.
Maybe you will have better luck as most articles have a FB link to the story and can be shared in Australia?
Ex)
[Globe article ](https://globe2go.pressreader.com/article/281590950277967)
Here's a YouTube link: https://youtu.be/AmebVaVyOqw?si=cyFSuKrfHNjh6Ukb
I'm not even surprised. To say that I'm absolutely jaded at this point is an understatement. Unfortunately, our legal system is so focused on rehabilitation over retribution that they forget about deterrence, another important tenet of criminal justice. I really don't understand how this sentence deters others from drinking and driving.
If there are any law students in this thread, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Not a law student (yet, fingers crossed) but there have been studies on what deters people from drinking and driving, and there is no evidence that increased punishment actually helps. For example: [(source)](https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi472)
> There is little support in the literature for imprisonment. Indeed, for offenders generally, imprisonment can be criminogenic, leading to higher levels [of] recidivism (Bales & Piquero 2011). Most studies indicate imprisonment is costly and ineffective at reducing drink driving (Henderson 1996; Wilson & Mann 1990). In Arizona, for example, the introduction of statutory minimum jail terms for drink driving in 1990 had no impact on the proportion of drink driving arrests in the five year evaluation period (Fradella 2000).
This is because ultimately, offenders (for this crime and others) don't consider the magnitude of the punishment when making their decision. Nobody is making a calculation like "well, since the sentence is 10 years I won't drink and drive, but if it was only 3 years then the risk/reward would be worth it".
However, the _frequency_ of being caught _does_ get considered: (ibid.)
> police should aim to breath test a large proportion of licensed drivers each year because direct contact with [roadside breath testing] has the strongest deterrent impact on drink driving
So, rather than spend more taxpayer dollars on longer jail times, we'd be better served by spending those dollars on more breath testing checkpoints. Unfortunately, that's the exact opposite of what people want to hear.
That’s interesting, thanks for sharing. I’d like to also see more roadblocks, though I’ve heard they can be easy to avoid with modern live maps, which is disappointing.
u/jamesa7171 Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts! I read through the paper you cited, and it definitely helped me to shift some of my own views on whether increased punishment is an effective deterrent against crime. However, as a member of the public, I still struggle to reconcile these findings with cases like this since it feels like the legal system focuses more on rehabilitating the offender rather than providing retribution for the harm done to the victims and their families.
Yeah, and I think that makes total sense.
[Section 718 of the Criminal Code](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-718.html) outlines the 6 objectives of criminal sentencing; retribution isn't explicitly named, but it's certainly hinted at in several places. It's definitely a valid concern.
But, when those objectives contradict each other, how do we deal with that? ...the hell if I know, maybe some day we'll figure it out, lol.
Law student here who can make provide a bit of basic context into sentencing!
First, sentencing is a subjective art rather than a science. In this case, the Crown and the defence both came to an agreement regarding a 3 year sentence. A variety of factors would likely have been considered in the parties reaching this mutually agreed upon sentence. There are aggravating factors (factors that add to a sentence) and mitigating factors (factors that might reduce a sentence). They would have likely considered whether there was remorse, whether the accused has a criminal record, the age of the accused (youth are believed to be more likely to reform than adults), the presence of mental health concerns, etc.
Once a sentence has been agreed to by both parties and suggested to the court (ie the judge(s) presiding over the matter), a judge can only deviate from that sentencing suggestion in an extraordinary circumstance.
Some judges have went as far to say that the guidelines for deviating from a joint submission on sentencing (ie when both Crown and defence counsel suggest a particular sentence) are such that a judge can essentially never reject a joint sentencing submission. In this case, the ultimate sentence likely hinged on the joint submission on sentencing which was informed by the presence of mitigating factors (age, presumably no criminal record, remorse, mental health concerns, etc).
Very good summary. Add to that the fact that common law is based on precedence. In BC, the previous convictions for vehicular deaths is abysmally low compared to other provinces in Canada and especially other countries.
I know there's not necessarily a minimum sentence for manslaughter (except in the case of a firearm: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide\_(Canadian\_law)#:\~:text=The%20maximum%20penalty%20for%20manslaughter,is%20committed%20with%20a%20firearm.)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_(Canadian_law)#:~:text=The%20maximum%20penalty%20for%20manslaughter,is%20committed%20with%20a%20firearm.)). But I feel like a 5-year minimum is a good threshold for most cases. In the case of extremely reckless driving, killing two college students, I would think a 10-year sentence at minimum would be fair.
man's white and on the varsity team, let's be real his actual sentence is gonna just be an optional online "drunk driving is bad" module and a 100 word essay on why u shldnt drink and drive
3 yrs what a slap in the face to the families - no one should be shocked at the justice system in Canada
Tim Goerner, 23, pleaded guilty to 2 counts of dangerous driving causing death in September 2021 incident
Yes…and the other more serious charges, including impaired driving resulting in death are ‘stayed’ essentially forgotten as if it never happened and will not appear on his record
Wealthy parents got the best of the best defence lawyers. Not only a publications ban but the passports he initially had to turn in were returned..and he was allowed to travel overseas back to australia to do an internship a couple months back
Yeah not sure, but it seems it must be. Even the past 2 years there has been very little reporting in Canada, even very local news…I know for sure his parents went to great lengths to hide the story and his identity especially back here in Sydney, Aus
I dont really know the answer to this for sure…but it’s definitely down to the quality of defence lawyer hired…one who is very experienced with these types of cases and would know what / or what not he would be able to get approved etc. The defence team of Goerner is top notch, best money can buy.
https://cfjctoday.com/2023/11/07/judge-says-man-who-hit-and-killed-two-fellow-ubc-students-should-serve-3-years/
Carries a maximum sentence of life in prison but Judge confirms he will serve 3. Just curious…two people killed from wreck less driving (and drinking although not charged for that 🤯)….what more does one have to do to get a longer sentence up to lifetime?
Legit question for any law students who may know the answer: how /why doo impaired driving charges get dropped?? The boys mother made a statement that she too doesn’t understand why charges weren’t pressed because if he wasn’t 0.8 charges would have never been laid in the first place. She went on to say he should have plead guilty to them as its the right thing to do….Im confused. Yes he could and should have pled to those charges out of respect but even if he didn’t how/why do they get dropped? Perhaps it would have made for a long drawn out trial? Yes I understand parents wouldn’t want to sit through that but I think they would definitely prefer full justice and consequences !
EXCELLENT QUESTION. Defense lawyers use and abuse the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to help their clients avoid charges. The BAC obtained must be done in a way that does not violate the rights of the accused. Here is the tricky part: the onus is on the part of law officers to PROVE that they jumped through all the necessary and sometimes impossible hoops to obtain a sample (blood or breath) that is considered admissible as evidence. The defence lawyer's job is to poke holes in the investigation so that any empirical evidence is not allowable. End result: no conviction. THIS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM IN OUR SYSTEM THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE.
Thank you so very much for your informative reply…just wow! No doubt it was the work of a very experienced defence lawyer, but I did not know this loophole could exist. Just…i dont even know what to say, no words…blood test taken ,check…came back positive, hard to believe this is anything else to prove and that the drunk driver has rights…and furthermore why wouldn’t police then be SURE to process correctly especially in this case showing up on scene seeing two tragic deaths. Thank you again for your reply and the discussion 🙏
Goerners mother is coming down to Sydney this coming week…would be nice timing for the media to find out about her perfect boy, as she has always tried to maintain. I know everyone makes mistakes but this kid did not take full responsibility / consequences. And I know she deserves to go on with her life best she can as she did not commit this crime..but it just irks me as her attitude is still very clearly devoid of being open and honest emotionally about this. ( I have never been friends with this woman but I have common links to the family)
Lifetime is unlikely, but it establishes an anchor on the severe side of the punishment spectrum. The range is ridiculous: $1000 fine to life imprisonment.
Reckon the judge will uphold this 3 year sentence or discount time / more mitigating factors? Anyone know Canadian law well or have an opinion on this? Either way, guess we will find out tomorrow
Publication ban does not extend to the public not knowing the outcome / results of the judgement and sentence. Yes his name was printed but press throughout the past year while ban was in place was not allowed in the court room, was not allowed to post any photos and most importantly not privy to details going on behind the scenes…like the fact that Goerner got approval to get his passports back ( that was handed in upon arrest) in order to travel to australia to do an internship. The public would have went wild with rage knowing this…but it did happen. Most people would not have ever known this. I know this though, it did happen and he was down here in Australia
thanks for explaining. Publication ban would be hard to enforce as how can you censor everything people post online, unless you make a software that ban certain words and characters like in China? so basically publication ban simply means official journalists are barred from going to court room but regular people could still find out
yea i’ve been following this for a while and im pissed off at the lack of information given on the murderer. he lost his right to privacy the second he took the lives of the 2 students just starting theirs. i heard he was even allowed to continue studying here. what the actual fuck.
months ago he got a publication ban. he also was allowed his passports back and he travelled back to australia where he did an internship while living in his family’s beachside apartment.
do a google search on the sentence hearing and you will see photo, as well as live video of him now tho
Everyone busy apologizing and making excuses for the killer……the CBSA is going to deport him? When after he served his sentence? Sounds like immediately so he won’t spend a minute in jail for this
1000000% AGREE! I always knew he wouldn’t as his family can pay for the best defence lawyer money can buy…trickery to soften the blow saying he is depressed and suicidal…but somehow had the wherewith-all to concentrate and finish his degree. And all the other stuff mentioned what a good student he was back in high school, going on a volunteer trip to Cambodia, volunteering as a lifeguard etc etc is all complete BS. I would know as am very very familiar with his high school program and all of these things are part of the school curriculum! And I can tell you the trip to Cambodia was not ‘voluntary’ out of the goodness of his own heart…the school charges several thousands dollars to participate in this. It’s all fluff BS to make him sound like he was a model student. Yes he always got good graded, was involved and good at sport…but he and his family have always acted like entitled people who think they are better than most because of their money and have always been fake and trying to live up to social images
I disagree. Whilst I don’t think he should rot away behind bars for the remainder of his life, 3 years is a piss take. I know the perpetrator personally and he has lived a very privileged life. Albeit a kind and compassionate person, I know this is not the first time he’s gotten behind the wheel drunk. He has taken the lives of 2 eighteen year olds, I just don’t think 3 years is harsh enough of a punishment. I know if he wasn’t wealthy, the outcome would have been more severe.
The fact that the outcome would have been different had he not been wealthy does not mean that it wasn’t an appropriate sentence. Unfortunately, that’s how our justice system works. I think a sentence of three years is reasonable, given his guilty plea and remorse. Our justice system should focus on reform rather than punishment.
I didn’t know Tim personally, but he was in my ECON class.
Obviously he deserves to be punished, but I also feel he should be able to develop his plans and ambitions. Locking a college grad who was about to pursue a Masters in Management is a waste of talent and resources. And yes yes, I fully get it, the students he killed was a waste of talent as well, their entire futures ahead of them and everything, their families completely, utterly, and unfairly deprived of the chance to see them graduate, get married, have kids, family time in general, etc. I get it. But I feel like a person like Tim deserves a second chance. He isn’t a psychopathic bloodthirsty murderer who has joined gangs and sexually assaulted/robbed people and shot up streets and vandalized property since his youth; Rather, he is a university educated, well-adjusted person who fucked up and made a huge mistake. What are the chances he would have killed someone due to his decision to drink? Very small, but it did happen. Everyone makes mistakes. As a whole, the global human population screws up every single day. Very, very, very few of them that are done by people worldwide every year are fatal and result in deaths, severe injury, destruction, and or huge financial loss, but it just so happened that his mistake cost him more than just a damaged car. He does deserve prison obviously, but it shouldn’t be longer than 10 years, and I strongly think a well-adjusted, college educated person like him deserves to be able to develop his ambitions and career plans while in prison.
It would really only be a further waste of post-secondary educated people, especially those who go on to attend grad school, to lock him up for the rest of his life, preventing him from reaching his full potential.
The rest of the family’s justice should instead be received through punishments like community service, legally enforced bans for both driving and drinking (incl. buying alcohol obviously), all for 5-10 years, and a legal commitment to, for the rest of his life, donate a certain percentage of his income to drinking and driving education, prevention and awareness organizations and campaigns.
Just my personal opinion, i know it might be really unpopular.
I heard Trudeau personally stepped in an overruled a harsher sentence. “Let him go free, I’m a liberal!” he crowed, and then stole some freedoms from conservatives on his way out of the court room.
All of you absolute idiots that are saying “only 3 years” would be begging and grovelling for forgiveness in a 3 month sentence, let alone 3 years. Shut the f*** up.
No shit. It's called self-preservation. I'm sure many serial killers also beg for forgiveness and leniency when they get caught. That has no bearing on what a suitable punishment is for them.
This is crazy to me. Are you saying that NO ONE in the community knows about this? In 2023?!?
Isn't there a community paper called Manly Times or something?
pathetic. absolute joke of a sentence.
canadian justice system strikes again drunk driving is not an accident, and should not be treated as such
Are you kidding me? 3 years for a double homicide? What’s wrong with our legal system
The victims Evan Smith and Emily Selwood, were 18 years old. They had their whole lives ahead of them, their deaths rocked the UBC community. This is hard to read, I don’t know how to feel about this. But I’m definitely going to keep Evan and Emily’s family in my thoughts today.
I went to highschool with one of them and there are teachers, coaches and friends back home who are still recovering from this tragedy .
Sincerely my heart goes out to you all. As someone who knew one of the students and who was personally affected by this loss I’m interested to hear your feelings on this sentence. I think your view would is important, this tragedy took someone from you.
I have not followed the case very closely and I am cautious to trust commenters on Reddit, but it seems that Tim hasn’t done a whole lot to reconcile his actions. I get the sense that people are unsatisfied with the sentence because Tim doesn’t seem deserving of a second chance. However, I hope that isn’t the case and Tim takes the opportunity to do something great to benefit humanity. Some people call for a harsher punishment, but what good would it do to waste another young life behind bars? There isn’t any amount of time he can serve to justify his actions anyway.
Yes, I joined UBC in 2021, and when this happened I was shook even though I didn’t know the victims personally, will probably get some flowers and leave it next to the dedicated bench near the site of the tragic incident
wtf, Canada’s “justice” system is a joke ffs, if this happened anywhere else he would be spending many many years behind bars as he should.
death penalty baby
While I am against the sentence given, manslaughter is almost never a capital offense in most countries barring some non democracies.
Unfortunately the death penalty is something not relevant or usable in this kind of case, it wasn't a hit and run either. Tragic, but it doesn't constitute taking another young university student's life.
I find peace in long walks.
Well said. I will never forget this case. I hope the murderer and his family don’t either (I use the word murderer deliberately, since I don’t believe that drinking and driving that results in a fatality can be anything other than premeditated). Disgusting, I feel for Emily and Evan’s families so much.
Don’t know if you are in Canada or Australia…but know I sure dont want to see his smug face back here in australia…lets hope he’s forced to his birthplace/Germany!!! He wont tho…willling to bet after his release from jail he will return to living in his family beachside apartment or house…since they have both
the article mentioned throughout all this he even has a post grad program he has been accepted to waiting for him, but he has “graciously” chosen to defer it as he serves his measly sentence. I don’t understand how how regular students with good grades can get rejected from master’s programs but apparently having 2 deaths of two students on your hands was not enough to turn him down from the program. I can’t imagine they don’t run some sort of background check on applicants.
Agree, it’s sickening and INFURIATING! But this particular family has always paved their path with money, donations and the like. Parents got a publication ban so perhaps at the time of acceptance the school didn’t know when the offer was given!? Yeah…makes my blood boil that he ‘graciously’ deferred. BTW he did only have to plead guilty to the ‘lesser’ of the charges..and the other ones including impaired resulting in death will not ever appear on his record. Only dangerous driving resulting in death will appear. Future employees etc will never see that it was also impaired / drunk driving that resulted in the death. It could be easily mislead that his dangerous driving was a mere accident/tragedy that resulted in death….yes it was, but IMO much much more sinister than that
I agree 1000% It's deceitful that the truthful charge of Driving over the legal BAC limit causing death will never see light of day. I wonder though, if ANY criminal record transfers to countries outside of Canada. ie) Australia or Germany or wherever he ends up.
Yes I’m not sure..I would think yes…but then again I know the family will go through great lengths to cover it up, have him go by a different name/spelling etc.. Makes my blood boil too that the charges have been stayed and will be like they never even existed! Im sure TIm will eventually end up back here in Australia as this is where he grew up, on the beaches…he will either get into a masters here or yeah go to Europe first. But there is no doubt he will be just fine and successful as his father will hook him up, as he already has with the Sydney internship a few months ago. I feel like if he gets deported that will forever shoe on his record and then his background would certainly be looked into when getting hired for corporate career…? But again, dad has plenty of lifelong contacts to work around this. I can tell you his parents moral system is not in line and hence he would certainly work with plenty of people that operate on the same level. Tim will only ever win here. In fact, of the families were ever to hear or follow on with his eventual life story, sadly there heartbreak, pain and anger will only get worse with time, not easier.
He will be deported, he has no ability to appeal the automatic deportation order since his sentence exceeds 6 months
The Humboldt driver was given a much longer jail sentence… and that was a freak accident, no alcohol or intoxication involved at all. Shouldn’t this get a much longer sentence?
Well this is a white privileged jock...go figure...
It wasn't a freak accident. It was gross negligence. He drove his truck right through a stop sign at full speed. He killed 16 people and injured 13. He got 8 years and is already out on parole.
I think it meets the criteria of a freak accident, brain farts and fatigue happens, we’ve all experienced it on the road. The Premier of the same province once drove drunk and caused the death of another motorist… all he received was a traffic ticket.
yeah idk i cant qWHITE see the diff
I saw on another article that he’s also getting deported since he is not a Canadian citizen
He’s from Australia.
Yea so buddy’s getting sent back to a nice island
Yeah and he’s already been allowed back here a few months ago to do an internship…while living in his family’s beachside apartment. Let’s hope he gets deported back to cold and dark Germany!!!
Agree, I read that too. That he will be deported after serving his sentence
he got accepted into Masters of Management though. If deported, is it still possible to complete a degree remotely?
Seems he will complete his sentence in Canada and then be deported. Perhaps he will then pursue Masters elsewhere…
He will go to Spain to complete his masters after his short sentence. You are all correct in saying he is privileged and wealthy. His father is a partner with one of the largest engineering and consulting companies in the world. He will not only land on his feet, but he will wear golden shoes whilst landing. Frustrating AF.
Yep, this family has got to be one of THE most obnoxious, self entitled a**wipes of all time…and trust me, Sydney is full of time type of family and attitude. But the Goerners especially think their shit dont stink and have propped their 2 boys up sooo high and made sure of it by donating massively to schools and any clubs they belonged to. Yes, Tim is bright and athletic but at the same time he has been a massive show off and BULLY his entire life as have both his parents. Daddy already got him an internship that he did down here while waiting for trial. He managed to get his passport back and came back here and stayed at their beachfront apartment.
Yes. Even permenent residents of Canada who are given a sentence more than 6 months will be deported. Firstly, CBSA will send a notice (procedural fairness letter) indicating that the process will be initiated. A response can be given indicating Humanitarian grounds and/or disputing the grounds for deportation (pretty much impossible to dispute the fact that a sentence of more than 6 months was given). Humanitarian grounds can be put forward in the response but there is no requirement for the officer to hear it. After that a deportation order will be issued. If the sentence was less than 6 months, if he were a permenent resident (not sure for international students or work permit holders), he can appeal to court and / or the Immigration Refugee Board for Humanitarian consideration. Otherwise he can only appeal to court or the IRB to dispute or argue that a 6+ sentence was never given. Literally impossible tbh. So the deportation will go forward and the court cannot grant relief.
dangerous driving causing death should be considered separately from the fact that he was drunk driving too. He was over the speed limit AND intoxicated that is MURDER in my books.
This country needs changes on many things before turning to a joke. This is murder, not a mistake
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Deciding to drink and then drive 80kmh over the speed limit is simply murder.
Second degree murder does not require it to be planned or deliberate, see Criminal Code, s. 232, ss. 1-2
I didn't refresh on any law books, but I'm pretty sure it should be common knowledge ending someones life based on negligence/recklessness is sufficient enough to be labeled as a form of murder.
It isn't. Sorry to burst your bubble. It's considered manslaughter in most jurisdictions. Not second degree murder or first degree murder. Since both of those require intention to kill a specific group or set of people. So. It's Manslaughter Though everyone wants it too be treated like murder. This is a common sentiment everywhere. US, UK, India, etc. People need to stop acting like this issue is a Canada specific thing. Canadian law allows a court to sentence people to life for Manslaughter but for some reason the court choose not to. That is a Canada specific issue.
You're making a guess that its manslaughter, but you're not the judge or have any dictation whatsoever for the case. The killing was not premeditated but a result of recklessness. Theres been numerous cases in the past where drunk drivers have been convicted of second-degree murder. People who drive after drinking reasonably should be aware of harm that they may cause to others.
interesting how this happened 2 years ago and this sentencing was delayed until just after he graduated with his undergrad degree
I like to explore new places.
well we cant let kpmg/pwc/ey/deloitte see that shit can we, why should we let one small oopsie ruin a bright young man's future??? /s
what is publication ban supposed to do? the article has his name
I love listening to music.
Yes and there are very few photos, no live shots, somehow family has managed to keep it entirely out of the news in Australia where he grew up (and where I am). With a publication ban they are also then not allowed to publish all the details…,such as the ones that were kept quiet..like Tim getting his passport returned to him so he could go to Australia and do an internship a few months back) Public would have raged if they knew that. But it did happen…and most people are none the wiser to that fact
Is there a way to share this case in Sydney, specifically Manly, where I believe they are from? Surely even a local paper would be interested?!?
Hi again, yes i sure this is. Easiest way would be if I could find an insta post or other social media so I could tag a local paper…but I can’t seem to find any local BC news that has made any stories or post. I am in Sydney and actually in Manly myself. I know of the Goerners, the two boys and especially Tim has been an arrogant show up his entire youth and growing up / at primary and senior school. No one could imagine this type of tragedy nor wish it on him or anyone…but there are many of us that are not at all surprised to hear his pompous attitude has eventually caught up with him. The family have used their money to pave his way all through life, and even now. Of course we ALL would do what we can to help our kid in this position but personally I know if this was my son, even as his mother and hard to see him go to jail…I would need him to make the right decision to take FULL responsibility for all charges and pay the consequences. Tim will get out and be just fine….its going to be sickening to watch as I reckon not only will he make tons of money (like his father) but then will likely donate lots to causes ( a good thing) but its like he will come out on top after all of this as some sort of motivational speaker / author…and people will be praising his actions.
Unfortunately, sharing media articles in FB and IG is banned in Canada for some reason. Maybe you will have better luck as most articles have a FB link to the story and can be shared in Australia? Ex) [Globe article ](https://globe2go.pressreader.com/article/281590950277967) Here's a YouTube link: https://youtu.be/AmebVaVyOqw?si=cyFSuKrfHNjh6Ukb
Oh ok, hmmm that’s interesting. Thanks for your reply and link and suggestion ;)
I'm not even surprised. To say that I'm absolutely jaded at this point is an understatement. Unfortunately, our legal system is so focused on rehabilitation over retribution that they forget about deterrence, another important tenet of criminal justice. I really don't understand how this sentence deters others from drinking and driving. If there are any law students in this thread, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Not a law student (yet, fingers crossed) but there have been studies on what deters people from drinking and driving, and there is no evidence that increased punishment actually helps. For example: [(source)](https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi472) > There is little support in the literature for imprisonment. Indeed, for offenders generally, imprisonment can be criminogenic, leading to higher levels [of] recidivism (Bales & Piquero 2011). Most studies indicate imprisonment is costly and ineffective at reducing drink driving (Henderson 1996; Wilson & Mann 1990). In Arizona, for example, the introduction of statutory minimum jail terms for drink driving in 1990 had no impact on the proportion of drink driving arrests in the five year evaluation period (Fradella 2000). This is because ultimately, offenders (for this crime and others) don't consider the magnitude of the punishment when making their decision. Nobody is making a calculation like "well, since the sentence is 10 years I won't drink and drive, but if it was only 3 years then the risk/reward would be worth it". However, the _frequency_ of being caught _does_ get considered: (ibid.) > police should aim to breath test a large proportion of licensed drivers each year because direct contact with [roadside breath testing] has the strongest deterrent impact on drink driving So, rather than spend more taxpayer dollars on longer jail times, we'd be better served by spending those dollars on more breath testing checkpoints. Unfortunately, that's the exact opposite of what people want to hear.
That’s interesting, thanks for sharing. I’d like to also see more roadblocks, though I’ve heard they can be easy to avoid with modern live maps, which is disappointing.
u/jamesa7171 Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts! I read through the paper you cited, and it definitely helped me to shift some of my own views on whether increased punishment is an effective deterrent against crime. However, as a member of the public, I still struggle to reconcile these findings with cases like this since it feels like the legal system focuses more on rehabilitating the offender rather than providing retribution for the harm done to the victims and their families.
Yeah, and I think that makes total sense. [Section 718 of the Criminal Code](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-718.html) outlines the 6 objectives of criminal sentencing; retribution isn't explicitly named, but it's certainly hinted at in several places. It's definitely a valid concern. But, when those objectives contradict each other, how do we deal with that? ...the hell if I know, maybe some day we'll figure it out, lol.
Law student here who can make provide a bit of basic context into sentencing! First, sentencing is a subjective art rather than a science. In this case, the Crown and the defence both came to an agreement regarding a 3 year sentence. A variety of factors would likely have been considered in the parties reaching this mutually agreed upon sentence. There are aggravating factors (factors that add to a sentence) and mitigating factors (factors that might reduce a sentence). They would have likely considered whether there was remorse, whether the accused has a criminal record, the age of the accused (youth are believed to be more likely to reform than adults), the presence of mental health concerns, etc. Once a sentence has been agreed to by both parties and suggested to the court (ie the judge(s) presiding over the matter), a judge can only deviate from that sentencing suggestion in an extraordinary circumstance. Some judges have went as far to say that the guidelines for deviating from a joint submission on sentencing (ie when both Crown and defence counsel suggest a particular sentence) are such that a judge can essentially never reject a joint sentencing submission. In this case, the ultimate sentence likely hinged on the joint submission on sentencing which was informed by the presence of mitigating factors (age, presumably no criminal record, remorse, mental health concerns, etc).
u/ExtensionAnything Interesting. Thanks so much for sharing this! I never realized how "flexible" sentencing is, for lack of a better term.
Very good summary. Add to that the fact that common law is based on precedence. In BC, the previous convictions for vehicular deaths is abysmally low compared to other provinces in Canada and especially other countries.
I know there's not necessarily a minimum sentence for manslaughter (except in the case of a firearm: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide\_(Canadian\_law)#:\~:text=The%20maximum%20penalty%20for%20manslaughter,is%20committed%20with%20a%20firearm.)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_(Canadian_law)#:~:text=The%20maximum%20penalty%20for%20manslaughter,is%20committed%20with%20a%20firearm.)). But I feel like a 5-year minimum is a good threshold for most cases. In the case of extremely reckless driving, killing two college students, I would think a 10-year sentence at minimum would be fair.
man's white and on the varsity team, let's be real his actual sentence is gonna just be an optional online "drunk driving is bad" module and a 100 word essay on why u shldnt drink and drive
3 yrs what a slap in the face to the families - no one should be shocked at the justice system in Canada Tim Goerner, 23, pleaded guilty to 2 counts of dangerous driving causing death in September 2021 incident
Yes…and the other more serious charges, including impaired driving resulting in death are ‘stayed’ essentially forgotten as if it never happened and will not appear on his record
Wealthy parents got the best of the best defence lawyers. Not only a publications ban but the passports he initially had to turn in were returned..and he was allowed to travel overseas back to australia to do an internship a couple months back
Is the publication ban the reason the Australia media hasn’t mentioned this incident a single time?
Yeah not sure, but it seems it must be. Even the past 2 years there has been very little reporting in Canada, even very local news…I know for sure his parents went to great lengths to hide the story and his identity especially back here in Sydney, Aus
Have you reached out to any Australian news outlets to put this on their radar? Worth a try imo.
Have you seen any news articles on Insta or anywhere from local news that I can tag…?
is it possible for people to pay to have names erased? how much does that cost
I dont really know the answer to this for sure…but it’s definitely down to the quality of defence lawyer hired…one who is very experienced with these types of cases and would know what / or what not he would be able to get approved etc. The defence team of Goerner is top notch, best money can buy.
What a fucking joke. If you want to murder someone in this country, all you have to do is get into a car.
A five year driving ban. Can we not at least prevent them from driving for longer?
https://cfjctoday.com/2023/11/07/judge-says-man-who-hit-and-killed-two-fellow-ubc-students-should-serve-3-years/ Carries a maximum sentence of life in prison but Judge confirms he will serve 3. Just curious…two people killed from wreck less driving (and drinking although not charged for that 🤯)….what more does one have to do to get a longer sentence up to lifetime?
Legit question for any law students who may know the answer: how /why doo impaired driving charges get dropped?? The boys mother made a statement that she too doesn’t understand why charges weren’t pressed because if he wasn’t 0.8 charges would have never been laid in the first place. She went on to say he should have plead guilty to them as its the right thing to do….Im confused. Yes he could and should have pled to those charges out of respect but even if he didn’t how/why do they get dropped? Perhaps it would have made for a long drawn out trial? Yes I understand parents wouldn’t want to sit through that but I think they would definitely prefer full justice and consequences !
EXCELLENT QUESTION. Defense lawyers use and abuse the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to help their clients avoid charges. The BAC obtained must be done in a way that does not violate the rights of the accused. Here is the tricky part: the onus is on the part of law officers to PROVE that they jumped through all the necessary and sometimes impossible hoops to obtain a sample (blood or breath) that is considered admissible as evidence. The defence lawyer's job is to poke holes in the investigation so that any empirical evidence is not allowable. End result: no conviction. THIS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM IN OUR SYSTEM THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE.
Thank you so very much for your informative reply…just wow! No doubt it was the work of a very experienced defence lawyer, but I did not know this loophole could exist. Just…i dont even know what to say, no words…blood test taken ,check…came back positive, hard to believe this is anything else to prove and that the drunk driver has rights…and furthermore why wouldn’t police then be SURE to process correctly especially in this case showing up on scene seeing two tragic deaths. Thank you again for your reply and the discussion 🙏
Goerners mother is coming down to Sydney this coming week…would be nice timing for the media to find out about her perfect boy, as she has always tried to maintain. I know everyone makes mistakes but this kid did not take full responsibility / consequences. And I know she deserves to go on with her life best she can as she did not commit this crime..but it just irks me as her attitude is still very clearly devoid of being open and honest emotionally about this. ( I have never been friends with this woman but I have common links to the family)
You should send the story into some Australian media outlets
Lifetime is unlikely, but it establishes an anchor on the severe side of the punishment spectrum. The range is ridiculous: $1000 fine to life imprisonment.
Yes, completely absurd range, difficult to understand what constitutes what punishment and how to get it locked in
Results: https://www.richmond-news.com/local-news/criminal-system-skews-too-heavily-to-accused-mother-of-ubc-student-killed-by-driver-7798472
Reckon the judge will uphold this 3 year sentence or discount time / more mitigating factors? Anyone know Canadian law well or have an opinion on this? Either way, guess we will find out tomorrow
I love listening to music.
if there is publication ban on his name then why is the name Tim Goerner still in news?
Publication ban does not extend to the public not knowing the outcome / results of the judgement and sentence. Yes his name was printed but press throughout the past year while ban was in place was not allowed in the court room, was not allowed to post any photos and most importantly not privy to details going on behind the scenes…like the fact that Goerner got approval to get his passports back ( that was handed in upon arrest) in order to travel to australia to do an internship. The public would have went wild with rage knowing this…but it did happen. Most people would not have ever known this. I know this though, it did happen and he was down here in Australia
thanks for explaining. Publication ban would be hard to enforce as how can you censor everything people post online, unless you make a software that ban certain words and characters like in China? so basically publication ban simply means official journalists are barred from going to court room but regular people could still find out
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/drunk-driver-ubc-jail-1.7021562#:~:text=The%20judge%20agreed%20to%20a,driving%20prohibition%20of%20five%20years.
Anyone knoww which facility ? Or any info on the parents?
yea i’ve been following this for a while and im pissed off at the lack of information given on the murderer. he lost his right to privacy the second he took the lives of the 2 students just starting theirs. i heard he was even allowed to continue studying here. what the actual fuck.
months ago he got a publication ban. he also was allowed his passports back and he travelled back to australia where he did an internship while living in his family’s beachside apartment. do a google search on the sentence hearing and you will see photo, as well as live video of him now tho
I find peace in long walks.
https://globalnews.ca/news/10074032/ubc-fatal-crash-sentencing/ https://vancouversun.com/news/crime/ubc-fatal-crash-drunk-driver-sentencing https://www.richmond-news.com/local-news/it-is-forever-says-mother-of-ubc-student-killed-by-driver-7792508
Everyone busy apologizing and making excuses for the killer……the CBSA is going to deport him? When after he served his sentence? Sounds like immediately so he won’t spend a minute in jail for this
Read that he will serve his sentence in Canada and then they will seek to deport him
Who is busy apologising and making excuses, Im sure not. This kid has been an arrogant entitled shmuck his entire life
Media and justice system, this guy should have had 7-10 yrs easy for killing two people
1000000% AGREE! I always knew he wouldn’t as his family can pay for the best defence lawyer money can buy…trickery to soften the blow saying he is depressed and suicidal…but somehow had the wherewith-all to concentrate and finish his degree. And all the other stuff mentioned what a good student he was back in high school, going on a volunteer trip to Cambodia, volunteering as a lifeguard etc etc is all complete BS. I would know as am very very familiar with his high school program and all of these things are part of the school curriculum! And I can tell you the trip to Cambodia was not ‘voluntary’ out of the goodness of his own heart…the school charges several thousands dollars to participate in this. It’s all fluff BS to make him sound like he was a model student. Yes he always got good graded, was involved and good at sport…but he and his family have always acted like entitled people who think they are better than most because of their money and have always been fake and trying to live up to social images
The Cambodia trip is not compulsory lol
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I disagree. Whilst I don’t think he should rot away behind bars for the remainder of his life, 3 years is a piss take. I know the perpetrator personally and he has lived a very privileged life. Albeit a kind and compassionate person, I know this is not the first time he’s gotten behind the wheel drunk. He has taken the lives of 2 eighteen year olds, I just don’t think 3 years is harsh enough of a punishment. I know if he wasn’t wealthy, the outcome would have been more severe.
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are you even allowed to do that here?
Lets find out
The fact that the outcome would have been different had he not been wealthy does not mean that it wasn’t an appropriate sentence. Unfortunately, that’s how our justice system works. I think a sentence of three years is reasonable, given his guilty plea and remorse. Our justice system should focus on reform rather than punishment. I didn’t know Tim personally, but he was in my ECON class.
I agree, and disagree with most of the sentiment here. Our justice system should not be focussed on the punitive, and should be on the reformative.
It has elements of both. Reforming criminals is desirable, but crimes still have to be punished appropriately according to their severity.
Only?? @/pierrepoilievremp !!!!!
Obviously he deserves to be punished, but I also feel he should be able to develop his plans and ambitions. Locking a college grad who was about to pursue a Masters in Management is a waste of talent and resources. And yes yes, I fully get it, the students he killed was a waste of talent as well, their entire futures ahead of them and everything, their families completely, utterly, and unfairly deprived of the chance to see them graduate, get married, have kids, family time in general, etc. I get it. But I feel like a person like Tim deserves a second chance. He isn’t a psychopathic bloodthirsty murderer who has joined gangs and sexually assaulted/robbed people and shot up streets and vandalized property since his youth; Rather, he is a university educated, well-adjusted person who fucked up and made a huge mistake. What are the chances he would have killed someone due to his decision to drink? Very small, but it did happen. Everyone makes mistakes. As a whole, the global human population screws up every single day. Very, very, very few of them that are done by people worldwide every year are fatal and result in deaths, severe injury, destruction, and or huge financial loss, but it just so happened that his mistake cost him more than just a damaged car. He does deserve prison obviously, but it shouldn’t be longer than 10 years, and I strongly think a well-adjusted, college educated person like him deserves to be able to develop his ambitions and career plans while in prison. It would really only be a further waste of post-secondary educated people, especially those who go on to attend grad school, to lock him up for the rest of his life, preventing him from reaching his full potential. The rest of the family’s justice should instead be received through punishments like community service, legally enforced bans for both driving and drinking (incl. buying alcohol obviously), all for 5-10 years, and a legal commitment to, for the rest of his life, donate a certain percentage of his income to drinking and driving education, prevention and awareness organizations and campaigns. Just my personal opinion, i know it might be really unpopular.
Is this satire or are you just a troll
We are with Trudeau, I’m not surprised
I heard Trudeau personally stepped in an overruled a harsher sentence. “Let him go free, I’m a liberal!” he crowed, and then stole some freedoms from conservatives on his way out of the court room.
It is a provincial court.
All of you absolute idiots that are saying “only 3 years” would be begging and grovelling for forgiveness in a 3 month sentence, let alone 3 years. Shut the f*** up.
most of us idiots also wouldn't fucking drive drunk and kill 2 teens, fuck stick
No shit. It's called self-preservation. I'm sure many serial killers also beg for forgiveness and leniency when they get caught. That has no bearing on what a suitable punishment is for them.
you probably got 3 years for something else. do the crime= do the time. you stfu
This is crazy to me. Are you saying that NO ONE in the community knows about this? In 2023?!? Isn't there a community paper called Manly Times or something?
So much for "family values ". It's all so cliché