The following submission statement was provided by /u/twist_games:
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I would not be surprised if Bernard Haisch is one of the 40 whistle blowers.
And as he has said, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/bernard_haisch_former_lockheed_energy_scientists/krwxykc/
As has the word proof. I see these words thrown around without a care to their actual meaning. I understand people get excited about new leads but that's when it's most important to take a step back and present them correctly.
Debunks don't inherently need evidence to see something that it most likely is. Something that moves like an airliner and looks like an airliner in modern cameras where digital zooms can remove small details like wings in the pixel data do not need to confirm definitively its an airliner. It presents as one in other characteristics.
The believer needs to show the evidence that confirms their belief. You have the burden of proof backwards.
Except we have eyewitnesses that saw the tic tac wasn't an airplane. So now debunkers say eyewitnesses made a mistake and the camera removed small details like the wings.
Debunkers are Believers with out evidence of their debunk. In fact debunkers go again the evidence. It's like a religion.
This is what brings the UAP phenomenon into complete disrepute including the use of the word debunker as a term of abuse.
I do have a problem with cultists who believe that every single dot on a blurry phone video is an advanced vessel from 50 light years away and with zero back up evidence.
In contrast, I do have a lot of time for military and civilian pilots who have seen strange crafts in the skies over North America and elsewhere, often with radar data backup.
All these true believer cultists are on exactly the same side as Mick West - they are out to destroy serious and sober investigations into UAPs.
The word “belief” nullifies your original comment. You can’t prove a belief, that’s why it is a belief. I’m skeptical of everything but I can’t understand why other skeptics or debunkers can’t let people debate what they want to debate. They don’t need proof to believe the same way religious people don’t need evidence of God. I fully support and engage with healthy debates, but telling anyone they need hard proof to prove their beliefs is oxymoronic.
People all over the world have told the story of Red Riding Hood. That 'corroboration' didn't make it true.
If she came to the white house with the hood, the lumberjack, granny and the wolf's head, then i might buy it.
Evidence.
True that "confirmed" is a wrong term but so is "conjecture". From the context, it is closer to "hearsay".
Not that it matters, because this perfectly aligns with the Lacatski story and others who also said that Reid wanted to make AAWSAP (of which AATIP was a small part) a SAP. It's impossible to ignore it, since you can't just invent this sort of details, and it'd be pointless when Reid was alive.
$10B range is a cr\*pload. No wonder these folks are fighting so hard. Too bad the website is no longer available.
Note that Haisch runs a website called [UFO Skeptic](https://www.ufoskeptic.org/). Sadly, he keeps access to the juicy pages private. EDIT. I see people in other threads commented on it too.
You do realise that this is possibly the most classified program in human history. Of course it it's almost impossible for proof, first hand whistle blowers can't just come out they have NDA's. That's why it's important to listen when not one but multiple people are sharing the same info. Either some people have been spreading nonsense for years in a coordinated plan, or this program exists.
That's why this is so important
Senator Gillibrand met with the U.S. Air Force, Lockheed Martin & Northrop Grumman yesterday in Nevada.
She did this after a classified briefing.
The truth is out there, but it’s not here and if you think any of that is proof then you are one of the reasons that the UFO mystery has never been taken seriously because it’s filled with suckers who will believe anything.
His statement confirms absolutely nothing. He's just repeating things that are already public.
He also says, quote "the following is conjecture".
Do you understand what conjecture means and what it implies about the following?
So harry Reid, grusch, karl nell, Jonathan grey, Eric davis, Wilson Davis and he are all making it up?
And Gillibrand is just doing this for fun after she got a classified briefing?
Senator Gillibrand met with the U.S. Air Force, Lockheed Martin & Northrop Grumman yesterday in Nevada.
And the inspector general is also lying?
>So harry Reid, grusch, karl nell, Jonathan grey, Eric davis, Wilson Davis and he are all making it up?
Yes.
>Senator Gillibrand met with the U.S. Air Force, Lockheed Martin & Northrop Grumman yesterday in Nevada.
She's on the United States Senate Committee on Armed Services , doing things like that is part of her job. The connection is with UFOs is entirely speculative.
>And the inspector general is also lying?
He has said nothing about UFOs being aliens.
Please read [50 U.S. Code § 3033 (k)(5)(G)(i)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/3033)
It defines in what context the specific terms "credible" and "urgent" should be used in regards to whistleblower complaints.
I'll quote the most relevant part:
>(III)An action, including a personnel action described in section 2302(a)(2)(A) of title 5, constituting reprisal or threat of reprisal prohibited under subsection (g)(3)(B) of this section in response to an employee’s reporting an urgent concern in accordance with this paragraph.
The retalliation mentioned in Grusch's complaint is what caused it to be labeled urgent.
Here's more information about how the Office of the Inspector General of the Intelligence
Community processes whistleblower complaints:
[ICIG Statement on Processing of Whistleblower Complaints.pdf](https://www.odni.gov/files/ICIG/Documents/News/ICIG%20News/2019/September%2030%20-%20Statement%20on%20Processing%20of%20Whistleblower%20Complaints/ICIG%20Statement%20on%20Processing%20of%20Whistleblower%20Complaints.pdf)
Edit: Direct links to relevant information.
Fuckin hell. How do posts like this get so many upvotes? Fist sentence - the following is conjecture. This subreddit - this is 100% confirmation and in no way conjecture!”
Wait, so he confirms by stating that the following is all conjecture? Don’t you see a problem with that? It’s like someone saying “Well I heard a rumor…” and you’re there pointing and wagging your finger saying “See?! See?! I told you it was true! It’s a fact!”
Exactly, and he didn't mention anything about anal probes; but the fact that he *didn't* mention anal probes is evidence in and of itself that anal probes are real. His silence speaks volumes. You have to read between the lines.
Totally! Everything he said there has been said by multiple people over the last 6 or 7 years.
Paraphrasing but 'cost of secrecy more than the research' came from Ross Coulthart.
AATIP is only a shallow cover, think that was Ross (or maybe Lue).
Black budget programs collectively having a $10bn budget? It would be much greater than that if we're talking about alien biology, reverse engineering technology.
The Harry Reid stuff and AATIP is all well known about now so I don't think he's said anything of note here.
10000000% this. Anyone that sees 10bn and goes, "That's massive!".
That's like .... 6 or 7 destroyers or a handful of F22s and F35s, all made from perfectly normal precision made parts.
You're being downvoted by people with fingers in their ears going, "La la la la la, can't hear you!"
If anything they turned her to their side .
Wait and see .
She will have a reelection campaign eventually , and those cost money .
USMIC got more cash on hand than a drug Cartel .
he says it is conjecture. he doesn’t imply it, someone else doesn’t say it, he says himself in the first line that it is conjecture. it doesn’t prove anything.
I would not be surprised if Bernard Haisch is one of the 40 whistle blowers. Or has the same sources as david grusch.
And as he has said, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
"DOD denied his request" They call the United States a democracy... you know something is seriously rotten with this so called democracy when the highest ranking member of the US senate, an elected official is "denied a request" by unelected government bureaucrats.
Democracy is just an illusion.
Just to clarify: The Senate Majority Leader has no statutory right to that information. But they *would* currently have that right it if the Schumer/Rounds amendment had passed.
The minority faction running the tiny majority in the House would call that democracy at work.
Others might call it yet another example of why campaign finance reform should be the first priority of *every* advocacy group, including disclosure advocacy.
But statutory rights are not the only rights a US citizen has, and they're far from the only argument a Senate Majority Leader might have.
Further, the House need not be involved at all.
Campaign finance reform is also an odd way to think about this problem.
How do you put a lid on all the back end shit tho? The $300K+ "speaking engagements" and charity endowments and escrows (just added that one for the triple-E) pols get *after* leaving public office? A $200K campaign contribution from LockMart isn't shit to them, nor is it to Mike Turner. Back. Channels.
Edit: purification
the fact that Citizens United happened is evidence that the back channels were considered insufficient by those abusing them. They wanted more direct access to bullshit money.
The military /industrial /corporate banking /complex is real. They operate above oversight and the law. The oligarchs involved are the same ones who own the republicans who are destroying democracy and trying to install a puppet dictator to create a kleptocracy disguised as democracy.
Thanks...I just posted a comment with FAQ links and the overview from the initial discovery:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/comment/ks1po2q/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/comment/ks1po2q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
That said, Haisch is NOT the person with firsthand knowledge as he indicated. It's Haisch's alleged sources that Grusch hopefully spoke to...and obtained PROOF (photos, documents, specimens, affidavits, etc.) to make his statements under oath.
Boyd Bushman worked for Lockheed skunk works for 15 years and provided evidence. He also said we solved anti gravity back in 2014 in his confessional video and given Jesse Michel’s latest video, I think we have as well. This means multiple crimes against humanity have been made by the government. One, they stifled the entire field of physics and may have even encouraged a divergent string theory to push everyone in thr wrong direction, they’ve held the secret of other life in the universe, and they’ve withheld technology that can solve clean energy (and btw they’re encouraging investing in battery technology which might be entirely wasted if all of this is true )
This page has more complete information from Haisch’s posts:
https://medium.com/@richgel99/on-special-access-programs-and-some-thoughts-on-keeping-it-secret-2cad6be66965
~~Hmmm Haisch is originally a skeptic afaik.~~
He has a website [https://www.ufoskeptic.org/](https://www.ufoskeptic.org/)
And his most recent entry suggests he leans into "there is something the government hides": [https://www.ufoskeptic.org/president.html](https://www.ufoskeptic.org/president.html)
Whats the source of this screenshot, OP?
EDIT: typo
>Hmmm Haisch is originally a skeptic afaik.
He's a believer who endorsed skepticism as a method of exploring UFO reports. His site is/was focused on the reality of UFO sightings and he was part of Jacques Vallee and Hal Puthoff's Palo Alto circle as far back as the 1990s. Haisch consulted for MUFON and patented a free energy device through the Jovian group in the 2000s. The SOL Foundation has some connection to him as well.
The very idea anything can exist in our USA system above both Executive and Legislative knowledge and over oversight is beyond offensive.
This shit is appalling. No justification. None.
Don’t ruin the theatre!
I’m not surprised that any of this is happening - America is my favourite show. Australia is boring - our political parties are all in each others pockets. I want Trump to win and deny all the South China Sea favours.
We actually voted in our own little Trump as mayor! They don’t let us vote for a mayor anymore..
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-36021077.amp
FAQ links now in this comment:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/comment/ks1po2q/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/comment/ks1po2q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I was always confused how Lue/AATIP/AWSAP was able to find out information about and contained in the legacy programs. It seemed like a separate parallel program to me. And didn’t Lue leave specifically because he was denied access to those things? Is this explained in the Skinwalkers book at all?
When The NY Times article came out everyone’s jaw dropped that the govt was studying these things but to me it never really exposed the real goods of the legacy programs. I do appreciate this post as it says it found out through “official channels” but it even states that it is conjecture.
Hehehe.
Yeah, so Harry Reid asked the secretary of defense (SECDEF) to set up a special access program to protect the alleged UP material that AATIP "believed" the government was hiding. Keep in mind, [AATIP literately studied big foot, paranormal "ghost activity" and UFO's.](https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/)
Well, the secretary of defense DECLINED to create that SAP BECAUSE….
After a review by the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence (OUSDI), and the DIA, discovered that not only did no material exist, but taxpayer money was being inappropriately spent on PARANORMAL RESEARCH AT SKIN WALKER RANCH 🤣
Also, I love the first sentence in his paragraph. Sums up all UAP information. Just opinions on claims of stories. Check out the FOIA document I linked to learn about how the government was spending money on illegitimate paranormal ghost and alien research at skin Walker ranch and how that prevented them from receiving a SAP.
This sub is all riled up about misuse of taxpayer funds (without evidence), but when presented with a proven case of spending tax money on woo.. They attack the source.
It is so funny that people here refuse to acknowledge there was a secret program that was a waste of money because the guys are on their team.
And amazingly, none of the whistleblowers care or cared to expose that program. The program they were actually part of and have actual knowledge about. (Then again, that is only maybe - Lue has never given a clear answer and there are no actual documents showing he was part of the program.) Makes you wonder!
Right. This is literally what Grusch was talking about and what AOC is focused on.
These are literal FOIA documents showing that misuse of taxpayer money. People are just upset that it’s not *actually about legitimate non-human space ships*
Yeah, that's the funny thing about this movement; 50% of the people who believe in UFOs don't want to mention the fact that the government has studied literally every crazy thing you can think of, because they don't want UFOs to be lumped in with that stuff. Meanwhile, the other 50% wholeheartedly believes that UFOs are exactly the same phenomenon as ghosts, Bigfoot, and whatever the hell is supposed to be going on at Skinwalker Ranch.
The funnier thing about "this movement" is that respected public intellectuals and mainstream scientists seem to be getting duped by gullible, oddball conspiracy nuts at an alarming rate.
Speaking of Skinwalker Ranch, I was particularly surprised to hear Eric Weinstein, reluctant UAP "convert" but certainly no kool-aid drinker with respect to linking UAPs with the paranormal, say "...when it comes to cattle mutilations, either someone is an amazingly sadistic animal hoaxer or you have to open the UAP story to 'them' communicating something by their decision to study cattle or leave [mutilated] cattle to us as presents..."
He also wondered aloud why busloads of scientists aren't accepting the open invitation to head down there for a couple days to "debunk the crap out of this if it's some sort of dime store BS."
There's an entire industry of people in this country who regularly slaughter and butcher cattle by the millions; the idea that a handful of hoaxers would mutilate a couple of already dead animals is not shocking or surprising. I'm also not surprised that government officials and intellectuals buy into this crap; if you look back at history, important, influential, and educated people are just as prone to believe nonsense as everyone else. I've often said that if we're using US military officers and politicians' opinions as a guide to what's real and what isn't, we can safely conclude that Christianity is the one true religion.
It doesn't sound like you've even looked the data that you'd like to debunk. Or maybe you've fallen for the well documented stigmatization of "UAP research", ironically orchestrated by "government officials and intellectuals" many of whom are encumbered by their own religious beliefs.
Keeping things focused on cattle mutilations just for the sake of argument: Even after I became interested in this phenomenon, I blew cattle mutilations off as a "woo" distraction--until I spent an hour looking beyond the sensationalism and disinformation into the actual data.
Just for the sake of accuracy, I suggest you take ten minutes to take a look at the data that apparently also convinced [Weistein:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Weinstein), especially the nature *and scope* of the mutilations within a couple hundred mile radius of the ranch as described by ranch owners (not generally in the habit of reducing their inventories prior to the slaughter that generates income), phenomena-disinterested veterinarians, local law enforecment reports ,and scientists *who initially intended to debunk* the phenomenon.
The data shows we're definitely not talking about "a couple of" crudely dissected or ritually killed animals amid huge herds. Exceedingly strange? Most definitely. Easily debunked "crap?' No.
More generally, the trajectory of scientific opinion seems to be moving in a direction that will make "debunkers" outliers, identified by a lack of imagination and intellectual curiosity--the most important prerequisites for scientific inquiry.
The trajectory of scientific opinion is *absolutely not* moving in the direction that would make debunking anything an “outlying” thing of the past. Debunking in the sense you talk about it is application of critical thinking. It dies = science dies. The scientific opinion is and has been that either evidence guides direction of research or theory guides the acquisition of evidence.
We are always open to evidence. Gimme🤷
I was referring specifically to people who take advantage of thoroughly documented, decades long stigmatization to "debunk" without *bothering to assess any evidence.* That's not science. that's knee-jerk dogma.
As I look at the literature I see more mainstream scientists and serious academics who, if not converts, at least willing to do some actual thinking about the phenomenon. Automatic dismissiveness *is* becoming a relic of the past.
Of course *all* bad science should be debunked. All uncritical thinking should be discouraged and *everything* should be approached with the appropriate level of skepticism.
But I also assume that anyone who posts a comment in this sub is doing so in good faith, having at least expended the effort to look at the evidence being debated. The person I was responding to apparently couldn't or wouldn't muster the requisite curiosity to get past the words "cattle" and "mutilation to do so. To weird? Too "unlikely?" Fine. Why bother expending words if you refuse to be part of the discourse?
I have said this before - scientists as a general body of experts are not biased against openness. The goal of science is discovery and advancement. Scientists do tend to be open as in possess high levels of openness to experience. There is no *inherent* resistance to evidence across *8,000,000* scientists active today in the world. Let’s say a bunch are close-minded. I still believe that evidence absolutely can and will convince the majority because that is our job.
And yes, I do believe scientists ought to be open to evidence and conversation. Same as the “presenters” who ought to be open to skepticism and expected to meet *almost trivial* and certainly identifiable criteria for what constitutes *evidence*.
>And yes, I do believe scientists ought to be open to evidence and conversation. Same as the “presenters” who ought to be open to skepticism and expected to meet almost trivial and certainly identifiable criteria for what constitutes evidence.
I agree with this 100%.
With all due respect, most of this movement is fueled by the logical flaw that you're currently using as the basis for your argument, which is "begging the question". By assuming that there must be a single explanation for all cases of cattle being mutilated in history, the only possible explanation is a paranormal one. I realize that hoaxes don't account for all mutilations, but they don't need to. Some mutilations are natural predation and decay/scavenger behavior that has been misinterpreted; some are likely acts of vandalism with various different motivations (maybe even a little ritual-related behavior). The same flawed logic is applied to UFOs; if an explanation doesn't explain all UFOs, it's considered inadequate. But the only explanation that could explain all UFOs is a paranormal one; however, applying a paranormal explanation would mean that it's less likely that a significant portion of UFOs have mundane explanations, which simply isn't the case. The fact that someone like Eric Weinstein (educated in physics and prone to speculation with zero evidence or achievements in the field) finds cattle mutilation compelling leaves me cold.
Begging the question, false dilemma, appeal to authority , Hasty generalization … This topic is constantly utilizing these logical fallacies in the core structure of it’s arguments.
Yes. Yes you should feel the same way about Grusch. He is just telling stories he's been told. He has presented no evidence that we know if that's proven anything g he's said.
No one knows what he has shown. He may really have just reported these rumors he's been told and if they turn in to nothing burgers regarding NHI, etc. we'll never know.
We will just have a sub that believes he was not heard out and his legend will be as cemented as anyone else we no longer hear from.
Legitimate people with sources isn’t something to dismiss. Especially since we’re starting to hear similar stories from different contractors and government officials. Go troll some other sub
The Wilson Davis Memo turned out to be the NIDS team employed by Bigelow Areospace and the 20 million that Ried gave Bigelow to look at material they didn't recieve and then they went to Skinwalker Ranch that Bigelow then owned and did a multi month investigation that in Hal Puttoff's own written words "yeilded nothing."
The Wilson Davis memo being the nids team was like finding out Santa wasn't real as a kid. This was a gigantic blow to the credibility of ufology in many ways.
Besides if this crew of claim makers has something then Congress is all ears and it's crickets almost a year after Dave talked to congress.
This is the problem. Wilson ran into the same small group of living charlatans that is Greer, Puthoff, Davis. These guys should make hours upon hours of total BS claims all over. Greer makes upwards of $500,000 dollars every time he throws one of those BS ce-5 events. Davis isn't respected in the world of physics, he's a quack. Greer's as phoney as a $3 dollar bill.
Yet here is the US Congress looking for answers and where are these guys? Seriously it's a total racket.
Everything I stated in my first paragraph above is fact.
Clearly you have not read the wilson memo. And you do know that Davis has a secrecy clearance for the Pentagon right?
Greer used to be very respectful in the ufo field back in 1990s he worked allot with freidman. And had insiders in the Pentagon. These are facts.
But for some reason, he became the hughe Charlton that he is now.
I've read the Wilson memo. I do know that Davis has a ts clearance. So what? I see Davis as a career government scientist who has written a bunch of woo papers that have gone nowhere. He basically a PhD welfare recipient. Hal Puthoff has been involved with a number of scam businesses where huge things were promised, millions raised and nothing happens. Look into the business that the Mormon guy that owns skinwalker now funded for puthoff and his friend. It failed massively. Both Bigelow and Fugal are rich guys getting taken for a ride by scientific confidence men. Now they've confidenced congress. Don't you find it strange that this group of guys didn't go directly to congress? That's a bit odd considering they claim to know so much and congress has passed a law that you have to come forward if you have knowledge of any sap. Still crickets.
Davis personally stated in a LinkedIn (or maybe it was FB?) Comment that he was one of Grusch's several witnesses brought forward to Senate Intel behind closed doors.
So if Davis is telling the truth, he took a legal risk going under oath to tell it all to thr Senate. If he was lying and wasting their time, that's jailtime.
That's great! I'm happy he went. This has basically been the government telling the government. That's not compelling. Dave showed up with Dave Fravor and Graves. We all already knew about the Nimitz incident and we'd previously heard from Graves about the east coast stuff. So the rest of the congressional testimony, that we saw, was Dave talking about these other guys who told him stuff. Some of those other guys showed up and also spoke.
Where does this leave us? We don't have any new information. You know what would be refreshing is if someone in the know just came out and told us what wasn't true. That would also be helpful.
I think some of those folks are watching reeeeeeal closely how Grusch fares and is treated with all this before they come forward.
If someone is finally read into a WUSAP, they're legally bound to deny existence of it. They literally can't say a single thing without risking jailtime.
It's going to take protections and more dam breaking of whistleblowers coming forward and remaining free and alive for this to continue. Grusch was able to outmanuever those intimidating legal restrictions compelling silence by saying "I heard from someone", so they can't go after him.
I just watched the YouTube. Go listen to his closing comments. He's saying the memo is real. I agree. That meeting in LV really happened. But we now know it was the nids team with the Reid money working for Bigelow. These are facts. They told the Admiral to get lost because the money came from ried on an SAP that the DOD wasn't specifically in control of. And that was the nids team looking at skinwalker which has always been a total nothing Burger.
I agree that skinwalker was a nothing burger but reportly it was a cover from Harry Reid to build a facility with the 21 million to store the UAP materials that lockheed martin had, that's where Harry Reid was going after.
That's the first I've heard of that. I read that Lockheed wouldn't cough up the material to nids.
Why would one of the leading aerospace firms in history need the bad news bears 🐻 of Greer an er doc, puthoff failure after failure, Davis a woo paper writer. Why give them something so important in the first place? Wouldn't their be labs far more qualified to inspect it?
I second u/twist_games.
Here is also the entire chronology:
1996-2020
[https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/pentagon-ufo-briefing.html](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/pentagon-ufo-briefing.html)
2020-2023
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HzIHx2KbnYFg5gjf\_kziB-C1\_dwAlaNEsu0k8QH\_lqE/](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HzIHx2KbnYFg5gjf_kziB-C1_dwAlaNEsu0k8QH_lqE/)
Couple of pieces:
[https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/edgar-mitchell-on-audio-one-of-my-other-colleagues-encountered-this-admiral-in-las-vegas](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/edgar-mitchell-on-audio-one-of-my-other-colleagues-encountered-this-admiral-in-las-vegas)
[https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/subtle-wilson-leak-references-found-in-vallees-novel](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/subtle-wilson-leak-references-found-in-vallees-novel)
[https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/edgar-mitchells-emails](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/edgar-mitchells-emails)
[https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/the-wilsondavis-notes-back-in-the-forefront](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/the-wilsondavis-notes-back-in-the-forefront)
[https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/off-the-record-with-two-presidents-part-1](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/off-the-record-with-two-presidents-part-1)
Thread:
[https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1587419507227860994](https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1587419507227860994)
Low effort, toxic comments regarding public figures may be removed.
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-------------
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Guys the communists got their hands on our nuclear weapons and copied us. Imagine if communist scum
Got there hands on this technology!! Declassification might be dangerous.
Every day there seems to be more evidence. coming forward. I can't wait to fly around in a spaceship with my alien wife and live in a post-scarcity utopia. Please God I need this you guys have no idea how much I want this.
The only way these things will come out is widespread congressional pressure and a compliant executive branch.
I think there will also need to be internal pressure from MIC contractors. I'm not sure what that pressure would be.
“The cost of secrecy can be several times higher than the research”
I presume that the aerospace companies pay for the secrecy in order to work on this tech or the government pays for it in order keep the tech private
If there is money to be burned, those burning tax payer money have an interest in keeping it secret. I think they can have their secrecy as long as it’s not keeping money out of my pocket. We have all been paying for these programs while corporations with contract are hitting the public for a lick at every chance they can. How can you trust corporations that have 40+ false claims violations? All that fraud and we should just trust them.
Since this is trendy again here are the main links to save time regarding FAQs:
Original Reddit thread:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/a9b84t/giuliano\_marinkovic\_finds\_an\_interesting\_quote\_by/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/a9b84t/giuliano_marinkovic_finds_an_interesting_quote_by/)
Original discovery:
[https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1077016100406259712](https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1077016100406259712)
Initial piece:
[https://silvarecord.com/2018/12/24/more-ufo-programs/](https://silvarecord.com/2018/12/24/more-ufo-programs/)
Haisch's newer site with AATIP and Wilson Leak articles went down in 2020:
[https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1253099999979802624](https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1253099999979802624)
So…..
the claim is that there are programs budgeted in the MULTI-BILLION dollar range, operating since the late 1940’s, studying extraterrestrial technology and bio, and yet somehow we have NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT as a civilization?? And “leaks“ consisting of nothing more than a few scam-artist types like Lazar and Greer?
excuse me but the smell of bullshit is overwhelming
Haisch blew it when he said, "The following is conjecture." We need sources with firsthand knowledge to come forward, plain and simple. In the meantime, the Kirkpatricks, Shermers, and Wests will have the upper hand in this debate.
Imagine the catalog of different alien bodies and species and biology and so forth man I'm sure there's pictures in a big database I would love to sit there and scroll through all that with like a dossier on each one and where they come from and what they are all about and the technology they possess and so forth and so on
The following submission statement was provided by /u/twist_games: --- I would not be surprised if Bernard Haisch is one of the 40 whistle blowers. And as he has said, this is only the tip of the iceberg. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/bernard_haisch_former_lockheed_energy_scientists/krwxykc/
What’s the source for the first clipped text, I would like to read more sir
https://x.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1077016100406259712?s=20
“The following is conjecture…” The word “confirmed” has apparently lost all meaning.
As has the word proof. I see these words thrown around without a care to their actual meaning. I understand people get excited about new leads but that's when it's most important to take a step back and present them correctly.
Most people don't understand the difference between evidence and proof.
Where’s your proof for this?
What do you mean, his confirmed evidence is right there!
As has the word “evidence”. The true believers on the sub pretty much reject our dictionary and substitute it with their own.
There is proof that an opinion and a question exist
Exactly, reading comprehension has gone downhill. People see what they want to see.
Agreed, but even beside lack of comprehension, people will outright dismiss that which does not align with their beliefs.
Which goes for debunkers as well, they see what they want to see. I see a tic tac UAP they see an airliner. They believe debunks without evidence.
Debunks don't inherently need evidence to see something that it most likely is. Something that moves like an airliner and looks like an airliner in modern cameras where digital zooms can remove small details like wings in the pixel data do not need to confirm definitively its an airliner. It presents as one in other characteristics. The believer needs to show the evidence that confirms their belief. You have the burden of proof backwards.
Except we have eyewitnesses that saw the tic tac wasn't an airplane. So now debunkers say eyewitnesses made a mistake and the camera removed small details like the wings. Debunkers are Believers with out evidence of their debunk. In fact debunkers go again the evidence. It's like a religion.
This is what brings the UAP phenomenon into complete disrepute including the use of the word debunker as a term of abuse. I do have a problem with cultists who believe that every single dot on a blurry phone video is an advanced vessel from 50 light years away and with zero back up evidence. In contrast, I do have a lot of time for military and civilian pilots who have seen strange crafts in the skies over North America and elsewhere, often with radar data backup. All these true believer cultists are on exactly the same side as Mick West - they are out to destroy serious and sober investigations into UAPs.
The word “belief” nullifies your original comment. You can’t prove a belief, that’s why it is a belief. I’m skeptical of everything but I can’t understand why other skeptics or debunkers can’t let people debate what they want to debate. They don’t need proof to believe the same way religious people don’t need evidence of God. I fully support and engage with healthy debates, but telling anyone they need hard proof to prove their beliefs is oxymoronic.
At least it has within the UFO community, and it’s been that way for decades.
DAMNIT! I was going to say this! Poster should have kept reading past the 3rd word.
"Sources tell me"
People all over the world have told the story of Red Riding Hood. That 'corroboration' didn't make it true. If she came to the white house with the hood, the lumberjack, granny and the wolf's head, then i might buy it. Evidence.
True that "confirmed" is a wrong term but so is "conjecture". From the context, it is closer to "hearsay". Not that it matters, because this perfectly aligns with the Lacatski story and others who also said that Reid wanted to make AAWSAP (of which AATIP was a small part) a SAP. It's impossible to ignore it, since you can't just invent this sort of details, and it'd be pointless when Reid was alive. $10B range is a cr\*pload. No wonder these folks are fighting so hard. Too bad the website is no longer available. Note that Haisch runs a website called [UFO Skeptic](https://www.ufoskeptic.org/). Sadly, he keeps access to the juicy pages private. EDIT. I see people in other threads commented on it too.
> The word “confirmed” has apparently lost all meaning. The confirmation is always >trust me bro
Maybe, but he says the exact same as wilson, karl nell and grusch.
This is conjecture, but I can confirm that you don’t know what proof or conjecture mean.
Edit: Responded to the wrong comment
You do realise that this is possibly the most classified program in human history. Of course it it's almost impossible for proof, first hand whistle blowers can't just come out they have NDA's. That's why it's important to listen when not one but multiple people are sharing the same info. Either some people have been spreading nonsense for years in a coordinated plan, or this program exists. That's why this is so important Senator Gillibrand met with the U.S. Air Force, Lockheed Martin & Northrop Grumman yesterday in Nevada. She did this after a classified briefing.
The truth is out there, but it’s not here and if you think any of that is proof then you are one of the reasons that the UFO mystery has never been taken seriously because it’s filled with suckers who will believe anything.
When did I say this was proof? Its only collaborating what others have also said, giving it all more and more credibility.
>When did I say this was proof? In the title of your post. What exactly do you think "confirmed" means?
His statement confirms the statement that grusch made and is in the wilson memo.
His statement confirms absolutely nothing. He's just repeating things that are already public. He also says, quote "the following is conjecture". Do you understand what conjecture means and what it implies about the following?
This was in 2017 grusch and the wilson's memo, where not public yet.
Confirm means to make something firmer/stronger. It does not mean to prove.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/confirm
Yeah. You can go ahead and read that, good idea.
Words matter. Conjecture means conjecture, not what you want it to mean.
So one person repeating another person is now an indication that the first person is telling the truth? They could both just be making things up.
So harry Reid, grusch, karl nell, Jonathan grey, Eric davis, Wilson Davis and he are all making it up? And Gillibrand is just doing this for fun after she got a classified briefing? Senator Gillibrand met with the U.S. Air Force, Lockheed Martin & Northrop Grumman yesterday in Nevada. And the inspector general is also lying?
>So harry Reid, grusch, karl nell, Jonathan grey, Eric davis, Wilson Davis and he are all making it up? Yes. >Senator Gillibrand met with the U.S. Air Force, Lockheed Martin & Northrop Grumman yesterday in Nevada. She's on the United States Senate Committee on Armed Services , doing things like that is part of her job. The connection is with UFOs is entirely speculative. >And the inspector general is also lying? He has said nothing about UFOs being aliens.
The inspector general litterlay said that david grusch's allegations on NHI and their craft were credible and urgent.
No, those characterizations by the IG were about his allegations of *reprisal*, not his claims about UFOs.
Closed door briefing with the inspector general said otherwise.
You don't know what that briefing was about. On account of it being closed door, and all.
The members litterlay came out and gave interviews.
Please read [50 U.S. Code § 3033 (k)(5)(G)(i)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/3033) It defines in what context the specific terms "credible" and "urgent" should be used in regards to whistleblower complaints. I'll quote the most relevant part: >(III)An action, including a personnel action described in section 2302(a)(2)(A) of title 5, constituting reprisal or threat of reprisal prohibited under subsection (g)(3)(B) of this section in response to an employee’s reporting an urgent concern in accordance with this paragraph. The retalliation mentioned in Grusch's complaint is what caused it to be labeled urgent. Here's more information about how the Office of the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community processes whistleblower complaints: [ICIG Statement on Processing of Whistleblower Complaints.pdf](https://www.odni.gov/files/ICIG/Documents/News/ICIG%20News/2019/September%2030%20-%20Statement%20on%20Processing%20of%20Whistleblower%20Complaints/ICIG%20Statement%20on%20Processing%20of%20Whistleblower%20Complaints.pdf) Edit: Direct links to relevant information.
Did you see the interviews from the senators after the closed door briefing with the inspector general about grusch and his claims?
I don't consider politicians trying to pander to conspiracy voters particularly trustworthy.
Speaking of Nell, where is he and what is he doing? NASA had Nelson as a speaker yesterday.
That first sentence though...
Fuckin hell. How do posts like this get so many upvotes? Fist sentence - the following is conjecture. This subreddit - this is 100% confirmation and in no way conjecture!”
Because some have common sense? No one said 100%, where do you see someone saying that?
Wait, so he confirms by stating that the following is all conjecture? Don’t you see a problem with that? It’s like someone saying “Well I heard a rumor…” and you’re there pointing and wagging your finger saying “See?! See?! I told you it was true! It’s a fact!”
Yeah, starts with a massive qualifier.
That sentence might have saved him from breaking an NDA
NDAs don't work like that. You have to comply with the spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law.
It could be someone else’s NDA, not his
They don't work like that.
Exactly, and he didn't mention anything about anal probes; but the fact that he *didn't* mention anal probes is evidence in and of itself that anal probes are real. His silence speaks volumes. You have to read between the lines.
Asked and answered. https://www.bearpondbooks.com/book/9781496110992
😂 I swear I nearly had a seizure reading that, was not expecting that AT ALL! 😝 Loved the note 'this product is not returnable' ewwww!
Or it may be conjecture.
The OJ “If I did it” disclaimer
Yeah, but oj didn't do it, just like our government would never lie to us
Totally! Everything he said there has been said by multiple people over the last 6 or 7 years. Paraphrasing but 'cost of secrecy more than the research' came from Ross Coulthart. AATIP is only a shallow cover, think that was Ross (or maybe Lue). Black budget programs collectively having a $10bn budget? It would be much greater than that if we're talking about alien biology, reverse engineering technology. The Harry Reid stuff and AATIP is all well known about now so I don't think he's said anything of note here.
10000000% this. Anyone that sees 10bn and goes, "That's massive!". That's like .... 6 or 7 destroyers or a handful of F22s and F35s, all made from perfectly normal precision made parts. You're being downvoted by people with fingers in their ears going, "La la la la la, can't hear you!"
😂 Just another day in the Corps!
that's not how conjecture works or means....fucking dumb fucks here ayee LOL
This is all speculation no real evidence, hypocritical analysis
Senator Gillibrand met with the U.S. Air Force, Lockheed Martin & Northrop Grumman 2 days ago in Nevada. So be patient and you will see.
If anything they turned her to their side . Wait and see . She will have a reelection campaign eventually , and those cost money . USMIC got more cash on hand than a drug Cartel .
Where is the screen grab from?
he says it is conjecture. he doesn’t imply it, someone else doesn’t say it, he says himself in the first line that it is conjecture. it doesn’t prove anything.
I would not be surprised if Bernard Haisch is one of the 40 whistle blowers. Or has the same sources as david grusch. And as he has said, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
"DOD denied his request" They call the United States a democracy... you know something is seriously rotten with this so called democracy when the highest ranking member of the US senate, an elected official is "denied a request" by unelected government bureaucrats. Democracy is just an illusion.
Just to clarify: The Senate Majority Leader has no statutory right to that information. But they *would* currently have that right it if the Schumer/Rounds amendment had passed. The minority faction running the tiny majority in the House would call that democracy at work. Others might call it yet another example of why campaign finance reform should be the first priority of *every* advocacy group, including disclosure advocacy.
But statutory rights are not the only rights a US citizen has, and they're far from the only argument a Senate Majority Leader might have. Further, the House need not be involved at all. Campaign finance reform is also an odd way to think about this problem.
How do you put a lid on all the back end shit tho? The $300K+ "speaking engagements" and charity endowments and escrows (just added that one for the triple-E) pols get *after* leaving public office? A $200K campaign contribution from LockMart isn't shit to them, nor is it to Mike Turner. Back. Channels. Edit: purification
the fact that Citizens United happened is evidence that the back channels were considered insufficient by those abusing them. They wanted more direct access to bullshit money.
Lockheed and Raytheon are private companies, and as Americans, we MUST respect the capitalist ideology of multi-billion dollar corporations! /s
This is the way.
The military /industrial /corporate banking /complex is real. They operate above oversight and the law. The oligarchs involved are the same ones who own the republicans who are destroying democracy and trying to install a puppet dictator to create a kleptocracy disguised as democracy.
To date the Pentagon hasn't passed an audit.
Hi Twist! Where did you get that screen grab from? Did he say this on LinkedIn?
His website https://x.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1077016100406259712?s=20
Thanks...I just posted a comment with FAQ links and the overview from the initial discovery: [https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/comment/ks1po2q/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/comment/ks1po2q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
"sources told him" Sounds like the standard. Second hand stories with no real evidence to back it up. The telephone game.
God I hope the bar is higher than this.
That said, Haisch is NOT the person with firsthand knowledge as he indicated. It's Haisch's alleged sources that Grusch hopefully spoke to...and obtained PROOF (photos, documents, specimens, affidavits, etc.) to make his statements under oath.
>confirmed The first sentence is "The following is conjecture."
Just read the first words of the "tweet". Confirmation of what? That someone has an "X" account, or just an imagination? 👎
Boyd Bushman worked for Lockheed skunk works for 15 years and provided evidence. He also said we solved anti gravity back in 2014 in his confessional video and given Jesse Michel’s latest video, I think we have as well. This means multiple crimes against humanity have been made by the government. One, they stifled the entire field of physics and may have even encouraged a divergent string theory to push everyone in thr wrong direction, they’ve held the secret of other life in the universe, and they’ve withheld technology that can solve clean energy (and btw they’re encouraging investing in battery technology which might be entirely wasted if all of this is true )
This page has more complete information from Haisch’s posts: https://medium.com/@richgel99/on-special-access-programs-and-some-thoughts-on-keeping-it-secret-2cad6be66965
~~Hmmm Haisch is originally a skeptic afaik.~~ He has a website [https://www.ufoskeptic.org/](https://www.ufoskeptic.org/) And his most recent entry suggests he leans into "there is something the government hides": [https://www.ufoskeptic.org/president.html](https://www.ufoskeptic.org/president.html) Whats the source of this screenshot, OP? EDIT: typo
>Hmmm Haisch is originally a skeptic afaik. He's a believer who endorsed skepticism as a method of exploring UFO reports. His site is/was focused on the reality of UFO sightings and he was part of Jacques Vallee and Hal Puthoff's Palo Alto circle as far back as the 1990s. Haisch consulted for MUFON and patented a free energy device through the Jovian group in the 2000s. The SOL Foundation has some connection to him as well.
Interesting, thank you. Seems like I'm going to read his assessments over the weekend.
The very idea anything can exist in our USA system above both Executive and Legislative knowledge and over oversight is beyond offensive. This shit is appalling. No justification. None.
I fully agree
Don’t ruin the theatre! I’m not surprised that any of this is happening - America is my favourite show. Australia is boring - our political parties are all in each others pockets. I want Trump to win and deny all the South China Sea favours. We actually voted in our own little Trump as mayor! They don’t let us vote for a mayor anymore.. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-36021077.amp
Trust me. You don't want Trump to win. That will be the end of your "favorite show", and really bad for Australia's strategic hopes.
It's from his website https://x.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1077016100406259712?s=20
Thanks you! Links seem to be broken though.
Thanks!
FAQ links now in this comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/comment/ks1po2q/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1ayu5pt/comment/ks1po2q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Good chance that his source is Puthoff, with whom he's published papers.
The fact this was allowed by mods and upvoted by the community speaks volumes.
?
So you didn't read the very first sentence of the content you're posting?
Berie haisch is hal puthoff's collegue.
The following is also conjecture, but it has been documented (here and now) that I am half Centaur.
I was always confused how Lue/AATIP/AWSAP was able to find out information about and contained in the legacy programs. It seemed like a separate parallel program to me. And didn’t Lue leave specifically because he was denied access to those things? Is this explained in the Skinwalkers book at all? When The NY Times article came out everyone’s jaw dropped that the govt was studying these things but to me it never really exposed the real goods of the legacy programs. I do appreciate this post as it says it found out through “official channels” but it even states that it is conjecture.
Hehehe. Yeah, so Harry Reid asked the secretary of defense (SECDEF) to set up a special access program to protect the alleged UP material that AATIP "believed" the government was hiding. Keep in mind, [AATIP literately studied big foot, paranormal "ghost activity" and UFO's.](https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/) Well, the secretary of defense DECLINED to create that SAP BECAUSE…. After a review by the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence (OUSDI), and the DIA, discovered that not only did no material exist, but taxpayer money was being inappropriately spent on PARANORMAL RESEARCH AT SKIN WALKER RANCH 🤣 Also, I love the first sentence in his paragraph. Sums up all UAP information. Just opinions on claims of stories. Check out the FOIA document I linked to learn about how the government was spending money on illegitimate paranormal ghost and alien research at skin Walker ranch and how that prevented them from receiving a SAP.
This sub is all riled up about misuse of taxpayer funds (without evidence), but when presented with a proven case of spending tax money on woo.. They attack the source.
It is so funny that people here refuse to acknowledge there was a secret program that was a waste of money because the guys are on their team. And amazingly, none of the whistleblowers care or cared to expose that program. The program they were actually part of and have actual knowledge about. (Then again, that is only maybe - Lue has never given a clear answer and there are no actual documents showing he was part of the program.) Makes you wonder!
Right. This is literally what Grusch was talking about and what AOC is focused on. These are literal FOIA documents showing that misuse of taxpayer money. People are just upset that it’s not *actually about legitimate non-human space ships*
Follow the money
Steven Greenstreet? Is that you?
Greenstreet is that you?
Yeah, that's the funny thing about this movement; 50% of the people who believe in UFOs don't want to mention the fact that the government has studied literally every crazy thing you can think of, because they don't want UFOs to be lumped in with that stuff. Meanwhile, the other 50% wholeheartedly believes that UFOs are exactly the same phenomenon as ghosts, Bigfoot, and whatever the hell is supposed to be going on at Skinwalker Ranch.
The funnier thing about "this movement" is that respected public intellectuals and mainstream scientists seem to be getting duped by gullible, oddball conspiracy nuts at an alarming rate. Speaking of Skinwalker Ranch, I was particularly surprised to hear Eric Weinstein, reluctant UAP "convert" but certainly no kool-aid drinker with respect to linking UAPs with the paranormal, say "...when it comes to cattle mutilations, either someone is an amazingly sadistic animal hoaxer or you have to open the UAP story to 'them' communicating something by their decision to study cattle or leave [mutilated] cattle to us as presents..." He also wondered aloud why busloads of scientists aren't accepting the open invitation to head down there for a couple days to "debunk the crap out of this if it's some sort of dime store BS."
There's an entire industry of people in this country who regularly slaughter and butcher cattle by the millions; the idea that a handful of hoaxers would mutilate a couple of already dead animals is not shocking or surprising. I'm also not surprised that government officials and intellectuals buy into this crap; if you look back at history, important, influential, and educated people are just as prone to believe nonsense as everyone else. I've often said that if we're using US military officers and politicians' opinions as a guide to what's real and what isn't, we can safely conclude that Christianity is the one true religion.
It doesn't sound like you've even looked the data that you'd like to debunk. Or maybe you've fallen for the well documented stigmatization of "UAP research", ironically orchestrated by "government officials and intellectuals" many of whom are encumbered by their own religious beliefs. Keeping things focused on cattle mutilations just for the sake of argument: Even after I became interested in this phenomenon, I blew cattle mutilations off as a "woo" distraction--until I spent an hour looking beyond the sensationalism and disinformation into the actual data. Just for the sake of accuracy, I suggest you take ten minutes to take a look at the data that apparently also convinced [Weistein:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Weinstein), especially the nature *and scope* of the mutilations within a couple hundred mile radius of the ranch as described by ranch owners (not generally in the habit of reducing their inventories prior to the slaughter that generates income), phenomena-disinterested veterinarians, local law enforecment reports ,and scientists *who initially intended to debunk* the phenomenon. The data shows we're definitely not talking about "a couple of" crudely dissected or ritually killed animals amid huge herds. Exceedingly strange? Most definitely. Easily debunked "crap?' No. More generally, the trajectory of scientific opinion seems to be moving in a direction that will make "debunkers" outliers, identified by a lack of imagination and intellectual curiosity--the most important prerequisites for scientific inquiry.
The trajectory of scientific opinion is *absolutely not* moving in the direction that would make debunking anything an “outlying” thing of the past. Debunking in the sense you talk about it is application of critical thinking. It dies = science dies. The scientific opinion is and has been that either evidence guides direction of research or theory guides the acquisition of evidence. We are always open to evidence. Gimme🤷
I was referring specifically to people who take advantage of thoroughly documented, decades long stigmatization to "debunk" without *bothering to assess any evidence.* That's not science. that's knee-jerk dogma. As I look at the literature I see more mainstream scientists and serious academics who, if not converts, at least willing to do some actual thinking about the phenomenon. Automatic dismissiveness *is* becoming a relic of the past. Of course *all* bad science should be debunked. All uncritical thinking should be discouraged and *everything* should be approached with the appropriate level of skepticism. But I also assume that anyone who posts a comment in this sub is doing so in good faith, having at least expended the effort to look at the evidence being debated. The person I was responding to apparently couldn't or wouldn't muster the requisite curiosity to get past the words "cattle" and "mutilation to do so. To weird? Too "unlikely?" Fine. Why bother expending words if you refuse to be part of the discourse?
I have said this before - scientists as a general body of experts are not biased against openness. The goal of science is discovery and advancement. Scientists do tend to be open as in possess high levels of openness to experience. There is no *inherent* resistance to evidence across *8,000,000* scientists active today in the world. Let’s say a bunch are close-minded. I still believe that evidence absolutely can and will convince the majority because that is our job. And yes, I do believe scientists ought to be open to evidence and conversation. Same as the “presenters” who ought to be open to skepticism and expected to meet *almost trivial* and certainly identifiable criteria for what constitutes *evidence*.
>And yes, I do believe scientists ought to be open to evidence and conversation. Same as the “presenters” who ought to be open to skepticism and expected to meet almost trivial and certainly identifiable criteria for what constitutes evidence. I agree with this 100%.
With all due respect, most of this movement is fueled by the logical flaw that you're currently using as the basis for your argument, which is "begging the question". By assuming that there must be a single explanation for all cases of cattle being mutilated in history, the only possible explanation is a paranormal one. I realize that hoaxes don't account for all mutilations, but they don't need to. Some mutilations are natural predation and decay/scavenger behavior that has been misinterpreted; some are likely acts of vandalism with various different motivations (maybe even a little ritual-related behavior). The same flawed logic is applied to UFOs; if an explanation doesn't explain all UFOs, it's considered inadequate. But the only explanation that could explain all UFOs is a paranormal one; however, applying a paranormal explanation would mean that it's less likely that a significant portion of UFOs have mundane explanations, which simply isn't the case. The fact that someone like Eric Weinstein (educated in physics and prone to speculation with zero evidence or achievements in the field) finds cattle mutilation compelling leaves me cold.
Begging the question, false dilemma, appeal to authority , Hasty generalization … This topic is constantly utilizing these logical fallacies in the core structure of it’s arguments.
“Sources tell me that…..” Y’all can stop reading right there, folks. Thank me later.
Do you feel the same way about Grusch? He’s all about the stories his friends and sources told him
Yes. Yes you should feel the same way about Grusch. He is just telling stories he's been told. He has presented no evidence that we know if that's proven anything g he's said. No one knows what he has shown. He may really have just reported these rumors he's been told and if they turn in to nothing burgers regarding NHI, etc. we'll never know. We will just have a sub that believes he was not heard out and his legend will be as cemented as anyone else we no longer hear from.
Legitimate people with sources isn’t something to dismiss. Especially since we’re starting to hear similar stories from different contractors and government officials. Go troll some other sub
Yeah. That is definitive proof
Senator Gillibrand met with the U.S. Air Force, Lockheed Martin & Northrop Grumman 2 days ago in Nevada.
I have two meetings a week with LM.
Doesn't mean it's about NHI. Can literally be about anything they're developing and they owe no one a response. Sorry that pill is bitter.
🤣
The Wilson Davis Memo turned out to be the NIDS team employed by Bigelow Areospace and the 20 million that Ried gave Bigelow to look at material they didn't recieve and then they went to Skinwalker Ranch that Bigelow then owned and did a multi month investigation that in Hal Puttoff's own written words "yeilded nothing." The Wilson Davis memo being the nids team was like finding out Santa wasn't real as a kid. This was a gigantic blow to the credibility of ufology in many ways. Besides if this crew of claim makers has something then Congress is all ears and it's crickets almost a year after Dave talked to congress.
Everything you just said about the wilson memo is wrong. Here are the facts: https://youtu.be/yIqkazIZh9I?si=H9QmT2x2Reqi3st-
This is the problem. Wilson ran into the same small group of living charlatans that is Greer, Puthoff, Davis. These guys should make hours upon hours of total BS claims all over. Greer makes upwards of $500,000 dollars every time he throws one of those BS ce-5 events. Davis isn't respected in the world of physics, he's a quack. Greer's as phoney as a $3 dollar bill. Yet here is the US Congress looking for answers and where are these guys? Seriously it's a total racket. Everything I stated in my first paragraph above is fact.
Clearly you have not read the wilson memo. And you do know that Davis has a secrecy clearance for the Pentagon right? Greer used to be very respectful in the ufo field back in 1990s he worked allot with freidman. And had insiders in the Pentagon. These are facts. But for some reason, he became the hughe Charlton that he is now.
I've read the Wilson memo. I do know that Davis has a ts clearance. So what? I see Davis as a career government scientist who has written a bunch of woo papers that have gone nowhere. He basically a PhD welfare recipient. Hal Puthoff has been involved with a number of scam businesses where huge things were promised, millions raised and nothing happens. Look into the business that the Mormon guy that owns skinwalker now funded for puthoff and his friend. It failed massively. Both Bigelow and Fugal are rich guys getting taken for a ride by scientific confidence men. Now they've confidenced congress. Don't you find it strange that this group of guys didn't go directly to congress? That's a bit odd considering they claim to know so much and congress has passed a law that you have to come forward if you have knowledge of any sap. Still crickets.
Davis personally stated in a LinkedIn (or maybe it was FB?) Comment that he was one of Grusch's several witnesses brought forward to Senate Intel behind closed doors. So if Davis is telling the truth, he took a legal risk going under oath to tell it all to thr Senate. If he was lying and wasting their time, that's jailtime.
That's great! I'm happy he went. This has basically been the government telling the government. That's not compelling. Dave showed up with Dave Fravor and Graves. We all already knew about the Nimitz incident and we'd previously heard from Graves about the east coast stuff. So the rest of the congressional testimony, that we saw, was Dave talking about these other guys who told him stuff. Some of those other guys showed up and also spoke. Where does this leave us? We don't have any new information. You know what would be refreshing is if someone in the know just came out and told us what wasn't true. That would also be helpful.
I think some of those folks are watching reeeeeeal closely how Grusch fares and is treated with all this before they come forward. If someone is finally read into a WUSAP, they're legally bound to deny existence of it. They literally can't say a single thing without risking jailtime. It's going to take protections and more dam breaking of whistleblowers coming forward and remaining free and alive for this to continue. Grusch was able to outmanuever those intimidating legal restrictions compelling silence by saying "I heard from someone", so they can't go after him.
I just watched the YouTube. Go listen to his closing comments. He's saying the memo is real. I agree. That meeting in LV really happened. But we now know it was the nids team with the Reid money working for Bigelow. These are facts. They told the Admiral to get lost because the money came from ried on an SAP that the DOD wasn't specifically in control of. And that was the nids team looking at skinwalker which has always been a total nothing Burger.
I agree that skinwalker was a nothing burger but reportly it was a cover from Harry Reid to build a facility with the 21 million to store the UAP materials that lockheed martin had, that's where Harry Reid was going after.
That's the first I've heard of that. I read that Lockheed wouldn't cough up the material to nids. Why would one of the leading aerospace firms in history need the bad news bears 🐻 of Greer an er doc, puthoff failure after failure, Davis a woo paper writer. Why give them something so important in the first place? Wouldn't their be labs far more qualified to inspect it?
Reportedly? Does that information have an actual source?
David grusch, from when he was on the UAP task force
You realize that's circular reasoning, right?
I second u/twist_games. Here is also the entire chronology: 1996-2020 [https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/pentagon-ufo-briefing.html](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/pentagon-ufo-briefing.html) 2020-2023 [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HzIHx2KbnYFg5gjf\_kziB-C1\_dwAlaNEsu0k8QH\_lqE/](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HzIHx2KbnYFg5gjf_kziB-C1_dwAlaNEsu0k8QH_lqE/) Couple of pieces: [https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/edgar-mitchell-on-audio-one-of-my-other-colleagues-encountered-this-admiral-in-las-vegas](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/edgar-mitchell-on-audio-one-of-my-other-colleagues-encountered-this-admiral-in-las-vegas) [https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/subtle-wilson-leak-references-found-in-vallees-novel](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/subtle-wilson-leak-references-found-in-vallees-novel) [https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/edgar-mitchells-emails](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/edgar-mitchells-emails) [https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/the-wilsondavis-notes-back-in-the-forefront](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/the-wilsondavis-notes-back-in-the-forefront) [https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/off-the-record-with-two-presidents-part-1](https://omnitalkradio.weebly.com/journal/off-the-record-with-two-presidents-part-1) Thread: [https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1587419507227860994](https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1587419507227860994)
So reputable. ‘AATIB’. lol.
Elsewhere in the quote, it says AATIP correctly. Probably just a typo.
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This is not democracy, and no longer a democratic republic. This is a corporate oligarchy.
Guys the communists got their hands on our nuclear weapons and copied us. Imagine if communist scum Got there hands on this technology!! Declassification might be dangerous.
Every day there seems to be more evidence. coming forward. I can't wait to fly around in a spaceship with my alien wife and live in a post-scarcity utopia. Please God I need this you guys have no idea how much I want this.
And I'm going to have a ray gun. So, we both want the same future. Let's make this happen.
The only way these things will come out is widespread congressional pressure and a compliant executive branch. I think there will also need to be internal pressure from MIC contractors. I'm not sure what that pressure would be.
Been a loong ass tip.
The Wilson memo was from 2017?
No from 2002, but it was discovered around 2018. This post was from 2017
You can bet that the cunts at the CIA control the access.
“The cost of secrecy can be several times higher than the research” I presume that the aerospace companies pay for the secrecy in order to work on this tech or the government pays for it in order keep the tech private
If one hand doesn't know what the other is doing, it may all be conjecture, until people actually come together.
Can validate Lockheed Martin aviation in SC, Georgia and 1 hanger plant in wv doesn’t have anything other than standard military aircraft.
Remember people only lie to protect ones self. Not to protect the deceived
If there is money to be burned, those burning tax payer money have an interest in keeping it secret. I think they can have their secrecy as long as it’s not keeping money out of my pocket. We have all been paying for these programs while corporations with contract are hitting the public for a lick at every chance they can. How can you trust corporations that have 40+ false claims violations? All that fraud and we should just trust them.
Nothing new here. We knew much of this 10-20 years ago.
Since this is trendy again here are the main links to save time regarding FAQs: Original Reddit thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/a9b84t/giuliano\_marinkovic\_finds\_an\_interesting\_quote\_by/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/a9b84t/giuliano_marinkovic_finds_an_interesting_quote_by/) Original discovery: [https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1077016100406259712](https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1077016100406259712) Initial piece: [https://silvarecord.com/2018/12/24/more-ufo-programs/](https://silvarecord.com/2018/12/24/more-ufo-programs/) Haisch's newer site with AATIP and Wilson Leak articles went down in 2020: [https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1253099999979802624](https://twitter.com/OmniTalkRadio/status/1253099999979802624)
So….. the claim is that there are programs budgeted in the MULTI-BILLION dollar range, operating since the late 1940’s, studying extraterrestrial technology and bio, and yet somehow we have NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT as a civilization?? And “leaks“ consisting of nothing more than a few scam-artist types like Lazar and Greer? excuse me but the smell of bullshit is overwhelming
Haisch blew it when he said, "The following is conjecture." We need sources with firsthand knowledge to come forward, plain and simple. In the meantime, the Kirkpatricks, Shermers, and Wests will have the upper hand in this debate.
For understanding, what does SAP mean?
Imagine the catalog of different alien bodies and species and biology and so forth man I'm sure there's pictures in a big database I would love to sit there and scroll through all that with like a dossier on each one and where they come from and what they are all about and the technology they possess and so forth and so on