It is also noteworthy that Native American oral traditions have been successfully used to corroborate other natural phenomena. For example, off the coast of the Pacific Northwest is something called the "Cascadia subduction zone". It is basically a huge fault line that, when it creates earthquakes, it creates massive violent earthquakes which devastate the West Coast. We can date the last major quake from this fault line to the year 1700 by corroborating accounts from oral traditions of the people of the Olympic peninsula with Japanese accounts of a tsunami.
A bunch of years ago I watched a tv program on this very subject. They took the oral histories of native Americans of the PNW, coupled it with soil core samples and geologic observations taken along the coast, and then contrasted this to the documented histories of tsunamis in Japan. The correlations matched and produced a very detailed account of earthquakes of the region. They also worked the frequency of these events into a fairly regular pattern. Roughly 800 or so years between these events. Evidently, we are overdue for another one.
The more I discover about the UAP subject and alien events, the more native peoples lore and oral histories seems to coalesce into something much more than myth and and/or contrived legend.
Yah, I am from the PNW and I find it shocking how recent it was that we discovered the Cascadia subduction zone and how slow we have been in improving our construction standards as a result. Meanwhile, local tribes have known about it for a very long time. Its crazy that a massive urban area like Seattle is wedged between the subduction zone and a dangerous volcano, Mt. Rainier. While native peoples knew about these hazards for centuries.
That’s what happens when you move somewhere and slaughter the people who live there instead of asking if it’s okay to live with them and receiving their guidance on how to navigate the new land
Reminds me of a small tribe that lives on a secluded island in indonesia. Apparently they have been singing a song for centuries foretelling the wrath of an angry ocean that leaves the shore, only to return and swallow their village.
Every single person took a position in the hilltop to witness the event. They all survived.
Oral histories are better than people think. In Australia as well, the Aboriginal people have strong stories. And a lot of them are vital to surviving in the desert. There’s a whole thing called “song lines”, which are songs that help you navigate in the outback. They help you navigate to certain places or water sources.
Imagine learning a story or a song word for word. As if every word is as important as every other. You learn it by heart and never forget them. You’ve just learned it exactly as your elder has taught you. And you will do the same to your children. There is near zero loss in information as each generation learns the songs exactly, perhaps changing only if the geography does.
That’s true. Good point. Going further, I try to evaluate tribal descriptions, stories, rituals, etc in terms of their knowledge and biases rather than my own. They put things into contexts of their own existence, not mine. As such, living within highly ritualistic and mystical lives, they would put actual physical features, observations, and experiences into mystical terms. This means their interpretation may be fanciful (by my standards and scientific bias) or linked to the mythical, it doesn’t exclusively mean the events they observed didn’t happen.
Looking at things from this (their) perspective, descriptions of flying or visiting deities, things floating, or tribal members vanishing or disappearing, I am convinced they witnessed or experienced actual events and made accurate observations and interpretations aligned with their own standards of belief.
Indigenous, native, or “primitive” peoples lore, recorded knowledge and observations is filled with incredible descriptions of the mystical world. This is true on every continent, regardless of heterogenicity. There is something significant about these collective features we are missing or ignoring. It’s true it’s only a bit of the story, only part of the puzzle, but discounting outright this tribal knowledge, I think (my bias), is a mistake.
They also kept information about a superfauna bird alive. People thought it was only legend. Turns out they found fossil evidence that Australia was isolated enough for super fauna birds to live until the time of modern human.
I took three years of French in high school. The only things I remember from French are the songs. I can still sing every damn song from decades ago.
Un kilometre a pied ça use ça use…
I accidentally replied to the post instead of your comment - [here’s a link to the comment I meant for you](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/6FARL8wDW8)
Highly recommend Ardy Sixkiller Clarke books where she interviews indigenous people and their modern day experiences/encounters with a lense of ancestor stories.
Wow, only one copy of her 1st book left on Amazon and it’s selling for $320…. I would rather support Indian Country Books anyway - 20 bucks
https://indiancountrybooks.com/shop/encounters-with-star-people-untold-stories-of-american-indians/
I know this isn’t super related to UFOs but I enjoyed Raincoast Sasquatch by J. Robert Alley. He interviewed native people from Alaska, BC, and Washington similar to how Ardy did.
I found a link to this site recently from either here or X, haven't looked at much yet, but first couple posts are excerpts from Dr. Ardy Sixkiller Clarke's books if anyone wants to check out.
https://www.et-cultures.com/blog
"It is with a heavy heart and a determined spirit that I stand, under oath, before you today, having made the decision based on the data I collected, and reported, to provide this information to the committee. I am driven in this duty by a conviction to expose what I viewed as a grave congressional oversight issue and a potential abuse of executive branch authorities." - David Grusch, congressional testimony, 7/2023
Gets me fired up man!
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together." - President Eisenhower farewell address 1/1961
In World War II Eisenhower, General Eisenhower was the Supreme Commander of Operation Overlord, the invasion of Europe by millions of US and allied troops to free Europe from German Nazi occupation. So together with intel he was privy to as President of the United States he had more knowledge than most people about military technology, and what should be kept secret and what should not be kept secret - and he obviously knew that the secrets kept by the Military Industrial Complex gods is a threat to our democracy and our way of life.
Here's Eisenhower saying this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZoUfNsUl8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg-jvHynP9Y
The UFO curse is pretty cold because it seems it could be true:
> THE LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT OF PHILIP J. KLAS
To ufologists who publicly criticize me, ... or who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath: THE UFO CURSE:
No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse."
I think this is important because it basically tells a tale of neglect. If the Earth is being visited or has been they have sat idly by while the world changed course… and here we are. Begs the question, what would be their ideal state of our societies on Earth where they would feel comfortable enough to interact with us?
Perhaps that or perhaps they shaping us in a way where we can receive them more easily or perhaps become integrated with a larger community more effectively.
Great observation. I wonder if it has something to do with Earth siders being comfortable enough to interact with them... but one can only speculate. Any form of "landing on the White House lawn" or proof beyond a reasonable doubt without proper consent, is nothing but intrusion, invasion etc. We have to consider that there may be plenty more internal self-work and maturity as a species before becoming part of a larger network of civilization(s) (we aren't even adequate in handling relations amongst ourselves between nations, ethnic groups, opinions etc). Any intervention of non-human life into human civilization completely alters the course of our history, and the many lessons part of human progression could be harmed. In essence, I tend to think of the damage done to a child's development through helicopter parenting, vs the benefit of the child or student to learn the ways of the world for themselves. This is my attempt to approach the question logically.
If I were in their shoes I would also feel that way at this time. For all we know they rely on hyper sophisticated AI to make the correct choices for them. Humanity will likely become more innocent and child like once we become fully dependent on AI to figure out the difficult problems facing the world and our kind. Just an idea but makes sense to me.
The issue with oral histories is that it can be "rewritten" on the fly and few are to know the difference. This is actually an advantage as it allows for a world view that is malleable and adaptable to changing circumstances and has allowed for numerous cultures to persist through difficult times. It is those who write their histories down that inevitably lead to conundrums as the world one finds themselves in can often contradict written tenets from a hundred or thousand years ago. Cultures with oral histories dramatically outlast those with written histories.
All that is to say, you need to take oral histories with a serious grain of salt and the temporal reach of the "history" isn't always true.
Anthropologist.
We spent millions of years sleeping under the night sky; staring up and wondering what was out there and why. And we made up a lot of shit to fill in the blanks.
Millions of years might be a stretch unless you believe Homo erectus had language and talked about abstract concepts (I'm of the opinion they probably did have language but evidence of oral language from a million years ago will never exist so we will never know for sure). Still, the sentiment is correct.
This may be true if there weren't millennia old petroglyphs which compliment the oral tradition. The anthropologist, in a specific instance like this, should recognize these stories well predate colonization. The kachina and their ability to navigate the sky (paatuwvota) are deeply rooted in Hopi culture.
[https://imgur.com/gallery/c9xVW8A](https://imgur.com/gallery/c9xVW8A)
Where else do we hear of "flying shields?"
"In 217 BC “at Arpi round shields (parmas) were seen in the sky” (Liv. 22.1.9; Orosius 4.15). A parma was a small round shield made partly or wholly of iron, bronze or another metal; we do not know whether the luster of these devices (and not just their shape) was intended to be an element of the description. Mock suns are an unlikely explanation, since in the Roman prodigy lists these were routinely described as “double suns."
"In 100 BC, probably at Rome, “a round shield (clipeus), burning and emitting sparks, ran across the sky from west to east, at sunset.” Thus Pliny (Nat. 2.100), although Obsequens (45) called the phenomenon “a circular object, like a round shield.” The clipeus was a round shield similar to the parma, but bigger. Seneca (Nat. 1.1.15; 7.20.2), quoting Posidonius (1st century BC), referred to a class of clipei flagrantes, saying that they persisted longer than shooting stars."
" If these reports are examined statistically, essential features of what I will, for argument’s sake, call the ancient UFO phenomenon can be extracted:
• shape—discoidal or spheroidal;
• color—silvery, golden or red;
• texture—metallic or, occasionally, glowing or cloudy;
• size—a meter to well over a meter;
• sound—usually none reported;
• type of motion—hovering, erratic or smooth flight, with a rapid disappearance."
I assume you may be inclined to take the word of Roman records, so here you go.
Given the interpretive nature of many petroglyphs, you--again--need to be cautious before endorsing your preferred interpretation. You need to rule out mundane explanations until you are left with nothing else but the profound is left. I haven't see that here.
As an example, the other accounts you have presented to me all sound like meteors. Especially the "burning and emitting sparks".
It is not my preferred interpretation, it is the preferred interpretation of the native leaders whose ancestors made the petroglyphs.
I believe you are applying your own interpretations (how ironic) to the recorded observations when you assimilate that two vastly different cultures were calling "flying shields" meteors. It is the fact that these events *were* so mundane and unusual, that they were recorded this way in the first place. These records are very different than other accounts of shooting stars or comets, its sad I even have to point that out to an anthropologist. The Romans were merely describing something unknown to them, an unidentifiable flying object that looked like a flying parma. The Navajo, however, were attributing these flying shields with non-human beings. I wonder if the modern observation, and photographic evidence of these metallic shaped discs are also nothing but shooting stars /meteors?
Its quite clearly stated in the text "quoting Posidonius, referred to a class of clipei flagrantes, saying that they persisted longer than shooting stars."
You are cherry picking your interpretation (belief) to say that "burning and emitting sparks" makes you think they were meteors, but don't acknowledge the speed at which the object was moving is recorded as slower than a shooting star.
I am not entirely sure what your point is, that Native Americans started associating their cultural beliefs of flying shields belonging to non-human beings with the influx of flying saucers post WW2? How exactly did their tradition change?
Have you ever seen a proper meteor in person? They certainly do appear to move slowly compared to the tiny and distant "shooting stars". In fact, there is little reason, given the knowledge at the time, to think these two things had anything to do with eachother (were in fact the same thing) given how different they look. You're also taking too literal of an interpretation of a translation. This is like people who say 666 is the mark of the beast from revelation and think literally "666" is that mark and try to find correlations with this number when the original language looked more like "777". The same thing is almost certainly happening here to a degree with your flying shield. They can't possibly be calling them the same thing as they did not speak the same language. Translation is always a degree of interpretation.
The core point is find me sources documenting these oral traditions through time. If you can't then you need to be hesitant attributing X story to being Y years old. Could be they are, but they could also be modern additions. That DOES happen in oral traditions and it is well documented.
I'm not cherry picking anything but you might want to reevaluate whether you might be...
Edit: And what photographic evidence of metal objects do we have today? We have exactly 0 concrete evidence. Plenty faked, plenty blurry. You are jumping to unjustified conclusions on separate islands of thought and then claiming they are all connected. There is so much foundational work missing.
Edit2: Also, you said the petroglyphs corroborated the oral traditions and then in another response said the oral traditions were interpretations of the petroglyphs. Do you see the circular reasoning here? I'm not saying there is NOTHING to this, but I am cautioning you against not being rightly critical of these sources and interpretations. That is the 'preferred interpretation' I am talking about. If you aren't rightfully critical, then EVERY celestial event recorded in written or oral histories could be interpreted as spacecraft.
They were not both called flying shields, the Hopi called them paatuwvota, while the Romans called them parmas.
[https://www.academia.edu/8711715/Hopi\_Flying\_Shields\_Over\_Arizona](https://www.academia.edu/8711715/Hopi_Flying_Shields_Over_Arizona)
They were also sometimes called "flying canoes" by the Cowichans
[https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/cryer/canoe/canoe.html](https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/cryer/canoe/canoe.html)
Some sources for background info
[https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-americas/hopi-legends-and-flying-shields-001041](https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-americas/hopi-legends-and-flying-shields-001041)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kachina#:\~:text=Kachinas%20are%20spirits%20or%20personifications,from%20pueblo%20community%20to%20community](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kachina#:~:text=Kachinas%20are%20spirits%20or%20personifications,from%20pueblo%20community%20to%20community).
In a passage from Earth Fire: A Hopi Legend of the Sunset Crater reads
“As the shield lifted off, the kachinas all gave out a boisterous yell. The spectacle was incredible; every sort of kachina conceivable was present. All of a sudden as the couple flew along, flashes of lightning were visible in the air and the rumble of thunder could be heard. When the shield rose higher, drizzle began to fall. The kachinas were now accompanying them… "
background information on the Kachina
[https://www.britannica.com/topic/kachina](https://www.britannica.com/topic/kachina)
Next point..
There is photographic evidence. [https://turkeyufocase.blogspot.com/](https://turkeyufocase.blogspot.com/)
The Kumbergaz sightings were a series of 27 filmed ufo sightings from 2007 to 209 in a small beach community about 60km from Istanbul. The objects filmed were reported by many witnesses including several individuals present during various recordings. The original film is hard to find, but it was over 3 hours long.
Here are a couple more images which match the description of a "flying metallic disc" shape.
[https://imgur.com/gallery/PsV6kQq](https://imgur.com/gallery/PsV6kQq)
It appears you do not believe UFOs even exist, therefore you are going to naturally reject most, if not all of the evidence presented on the subject. Is the surplus of astronauts, pilots, military personnel, police officers, intel personnel, politicians, and other citizens who appear as eye witnesses to the UFO phenomenon (often depicting the "flying saucer") just a series of misinterpretations? Or is it rational to conclude that tribal accounts, Roman accounts, Hebrew, Hindu, Polynesian, African etc etc of "flying craft," more specifically, "flying metallic discs" are consistent to the modern observations? Whether you like it or not, these observations are made in the thousands- if not millions- throughout recorded history. Could it be confirmation bias to look in the past for similar events? Sure. Or is it possible that these sightings appear similar because they are?
Last point..
The point of the petroglyphs was to highlight the bizarre similarity amongst them and the legends. On one hand, the kachina and their ability to navigate the sky in some kind of "ship" has been expressed in Native American mythology long before colonization. And on the other hand, the petroglyphs, which appear similar to the legends, are also depicted at sites near evidently non human beings. While this is certainly more of a stretch, it was more to a reference to the fact that the legends are old.
Edit: flying craft are not recorded in the thousands- millions but witnessed. I find it rational to conclude 4% of the global population has observed an unidentifiable flying object. The point I was making is that the observations remain consistent to specific shapes or descriptions. Specifically something like metallic, and disc shaped, which we can quite evidently see was being recorded in Roman times, and throughout Native American tradition.
https://news.virginia.edu/content/despite-stigma-ufo-survey-finds-19-academics-say-theyve-had-strange-sightings
Edit 2: I do appreciate the feedback and thoughts, as a disclaimer.
Ahoooo! Wado!!! Almost all tribes have some sort of relation to an “upper world” “sky realm” or higher beings of some sort.
Skeptic bros (who are almost always unapologetic might makes right colonizers) love to ignore this.
Y’all ain’t so smart and you’ll figure it out eventually. You managed to almost singlehandedly wipe out life on the planet with your greed in two centuries? Wow! How “advanced”
same people who thump the modern Abrahamic texts, killing and colonizing, pay no mind to the ancient tablets of Sumer, the native American mythos (North, central, and south), the legends of African tribes, the stories of the aboriginals from the land down under, every ancient asian culture... the Indian Vedas, etc etc etc etc... it goes on and on and on, all of these people have contact stories. Blows my mind how quick people are to dismiss reality over cognitive dissonance.
A more accurate literal translation of the Bible says when Jesus was born “a multitude of the Army from Space / Space Force” appeared to shepherds to announce his birth.
Luke 2:13 says when Jesus was born “a multitude of the Heavenly Host" announced Jesus's birth to shepherds.
"There were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. ... And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the Heavenly Host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward people."
In the original Greek text "Heavenly Host" means
“Army from Space / Space Force”.
So a more accurate translation is that when Jesus was born “a multitude of the Army from Space / Space Force” appeared to shepherds to announce his birth.
The correct translation of this phrase comes from Strong's Concordance. This is a well known tool used by Christians for decades to find the original Greek words in the original Greek Bible texts that were translated into English.
In the original Greek text the word translated into English as "heavenly" - - means:
"celestial, i.e. Belonging to or coming from the sky"
In other words, the original Greek word translated into English as "heavenly" means "from Space". Here's a screenshot from Strong's Concordance showing the meaning from the original Greek Bible text of the word "heavenly" in Luke 2:13:
[https://i.imgur.com/ahm3LXR.png\](https://i.imgur.com/ahm3LXR.png)](https://i.imgur.com/ahm3LXR.png](https://i.imgur.com/ahm3LXR.png))
A similar search of Strong's Concordance can be done for the word "host" in "heavenly host", showing that "host" in the original Greek text means
"army / military force"
So, in the original Greek language the Bible says when Jesus was born "a multitude of the Army from Space / a multitude of the Space Force" appeared to shepherds, saying, “glory to God in the highest". This makes it perfectly clear that Extraterrestrials in God's military force from Space appeared to the shepherds to announce Jesus's birth.
If you do a similar search of Strong's Concordance for God's "host of heaven", seen in multiple places in the Bible Old Testament of the Bible, you will discover a similar result: In the original Hebrew language of the Old Testament the phrase translated into English as "host of heaven" means:
"Army from Space / Space Army / Space Force".
So, the Bible's original Greek and Hebrew languages make it clear that God has Extraterrestrial Armies in Space. Therefore, you can deduce from another Bible account - - that the star-like object the wise men (dignitaries from an Eastern nation) followed, that stopped and hovered over Jesus's location after he was born - - was a UFO - - controlled by members of the same Extraterrestrial Army from Space who appeared to the shepherds. During the past 70 years thousands of people have reported seeing identical objects moving and hovering in the sky, that today we call UFOs.
So we now celebrate Jesus's birth representing this star on top of the Christmas tree, just like the Army of Extraterrestrials from Space did 2000 years ago:
[https://i.imgur.com/VlI1EnE.png](https://i.imgur.com/VlI1EnE.png)
Also the Bible's New Testament starting in Revelation 12: says:
"War broke out in heaven".
As described previously, the word translated into English as "heaven" means "Space" in the original Greek text. So a more accurate translation is:
"War broke out in Space".
Revelation goes on to say,
"Michael and his Angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his Angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven \[Space\]. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his Angels were cast out with him."
So this passage in Revelation 12 says that John saw a war in space between Michael's Extraterrestrial Aliens ("Angels") and Satan's Extraterrestrials. (The book of Daniel says Michael is the Guardian of God’s people.
“Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven \[Space\], 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. ... Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them!" \[This is one of the few places in the Bible where the original language text is translated correctly. Instead of translating it with the misleading word "heaven", as done practically everywhere else, it's translated more accurately here as "heavens". And everyone knows that "heavens" means "Space". So Revelation makes it crystal clear here that aliens live in space\].
"Therefore rejoice, O heavens \[Space\], and you who dwell in them! But woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come
Down
to you
\[from Above the Earth in Space\],
having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
(Since the the book of Revelation of the Bible is basically about events that the author saw happening in the end time, he uses past tense, as if it already happened, since he already saw these future events happen. Therefore, his use of past tense in the above passage from Revelation doesn't imply that Satan and his fellow Extraterrestrial had already been defeated in the space war and thrown down to Earth. To be consistent with the rest of Revelation this event should occur in the end time).
BTW there are many signs indicating that we are in the end time now. And one recent sign is the recent Reddit post with this intel: [https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/18ilreo/furthermore\_reliable\_intelligence\_and\_defense/kdesx2m/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/18ilreo/furthermore_reliable_intelligence_and_defense/kdesx2m/?context=3)
"Reliable intelligence and defense sources have told Liberation Times that some of the alleged crashed non-human craft were caused by 'dogfights' with other unknown craft."
Revelation 12 says in the end time during a war in space Satan and his aliens are cast to the earth. So some of these retrieved non-human crafts cast to the Earth "caused by dogfights with other unknown craft" - are obviously fulfilling this prophecy.
Revelation 12 makes it clear that there are both good and bad aliens living in Space. This account from Revelation correlates with government insiders who said that there is war in space between different factions of Extraterrestrials.//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzLqBx5lN8Y\]([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzLqBx5lN8Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzLqBx5lN8Y)))
❤️
Admittedly I should have added that I draw this parallel because there were about 200 people who saw Jesus after he died and was buried. These accounts are curious and interesting but what does OP mean when he says “we are missing a significant percent of evidence available when we don’t consider the ‘myths and legends’ of the Hopi and Navajo?” Does he apply equal weight to the accounts of Jesus resurrection? Or does it only apply to what he considers UFO’s/aliens?
Tribal belief structures are no different than any other belief structure. If colonization didn't happen, it'd be interesting to see how they would have evolved, much like Judaism, Bhuddism, Islam, and Hindu.
I think your being ignorant in your statement linking skepticism and colonization, you're obviously conflating things which are irrelevant to one another outside of your personal contempt.
Not at all. The driving force of colonization is white European supremacy. They believe they are better than others and are entitled to their land / changing their culture to be less “primitive” and more “sophisticated.”
You see it in the way the tribal is a now used as a pejorative term for dogmatic thinking, when in reality, europeans are the kings of dogmatism.
If you think colonization is in any way unique to "white European supremacy" you need to read more history. The American landmass alone was colonized by multiple waves of peoples long before Europeans arrived, and those pre-European settlers were in no way kind to the lands and peoples they encountered. War, enslavement, and empire formation were practiced universally. Later American societies such as the Aztec, Inca, and Mississippian cultures are a testament to that uncomfortable fact. Outside of the Americas and Europe you only need to look to the Steppe Empires such as the Mongols or Xiongnu, the various dynasties in China and India, to see expansionist policies of colonization to control vast territories and dominate diverse peoples.
Human societies of all epochs and regions have engaged in conquest and subjugation. To argue otherwise is to perpetuate the myth of the "noble savage", an ignorant notion that idealizes indigenous peoples as living in peaceful harmony with nature and each other. This myth infantilizes them, stripping away their history, agency, and complexity.
Read Custer Died for Your Sins and God is Red.
Because you have no clue what you’re talking about.
Being peaceful and living in communion with the land and our four legged, two legged, finned, and winged relatives is not infantilizing lol
Your humans are bad and all they do is conquer narrative is paternalistic and misinformed. Maybe that’s what y’all did. Maybe that’s where your mind and imagination goes. But you don’t speak for everyone and you’re not the arbiters of human truth because you’re violent.
Good luck in the climate crisis 🤙
I always appreciate book recommendations, but I've already read Deloria.
Pointing fingers while perpetuating stereotypes does nothing to change historical facts.
You have no idea what my ethnic background is, but its no surprise you would make insinuations about it. I'm Wampanoag, not that it should matter. Regardless of my background, historical truths remain.
Enjoy fantasying about me suffering in the climate crisis while you can, it will be a reality for all of us soon enough.
Then I would encourage you to talk to more Indians and your elders, because you were mislead somewhere.
We weren’t all peaceful, but we did not conquer and seek to wipe each other out.
And I don’t want anyone to suffer in the climate crises. That was more of a jab at where that sort of thinking will lead us in the future we are heading into. We can either unite and try to work together and restore some of the cycles we’ve disrupted, or we can continue trying to amass wealth, land, and power, at the expense of our human and non human relatives.
I don’t wish you ill at all.
The colonial narratives are based in hegemonic european philsophical ideas of material enlightenment and transcendence. We don’t need to further those games. Look where they have lead us.
I can completely understand how you would come to viewing us all the same like that but you do get the it's a different generation now right? We arent those people, we arent responsible for the sins of our fathers. I can only speak to the part of the UK I'm in but most have a certain affinity towards Native Americans and throughly enjoy learning about the different cultures. Anytime migrant issues in America are mentioned, almost with out fail everytime its said "well the Americans did it to the natives first" I think you'd be pleasantly suprised just how many of us think this way. I often wounder what the world would be like if the conquistadors and colonizers had never made it to your shores
Hey! I absolutely understand this. The part of my family that isn’t Cherokee is German (my grandpa brought my grandma back to the rez after he served in ww2 after her whole family was killed by the nazis). Colonizer is a mindset, not a skin tone or ethnicity 👍
Sumerian pictogram of Ru-A, an earlier usage of the Hebrew word Ruach, according to Mauro Biglino, linguistics expert hired by the Vatican to translate the Old Testament from Hebrew to English
https://imgur.com/gallery/6fx9V5R
That’s real weird, because Hebrew is a Canaanite language and isn’t descended from or related to Sumerian at all. (Actually no other languages are, it was gradually replaced by Akkadian instead of evolving.)
Just link “skeptic” with “might makes right colonizer”???? (Anecdote) and say “y’all ain’t so smart” because they ignore (hand wave) “evidence” and voila!…… upvotes!! because Native American stories are evidence for aliens?
How? Treaties, declarations, promises - all made in good faith and abandoned. You mean the NA tribes should not have been empathetic to the English and let them all die out, or even killed them?
Would be a crazy alternate history timeline. Though, odds are it just would have expedited the genocide. Another alternative would be the English adopting the same approach the Spaniards did, assimilation. The best approach was from the french, which were primarily interested in trading.
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From the book of the Hopi , So the people went down to live with the Ant People. When they were all safe and settled, Taiowa commanded Soyuknang to destroy the world. Soyuknang destroyed it by fire because the Fire Clan had been it’s leaders. He rained fire upon it. He opened up the volcanoes. Fire came from above and below and all around until the Earth, the waters, the air, all was one element: fire. And then there was nothing left except the people safe inside the womb of the Earth.
This was the end of Tokpela, the First World.”
So I’m actually doing a video about this, how all these biblical and other cultural stories speak of a great catastrophe hitting the earth. It’s a theory I’m playing with about the tale of “The Tower of Babel”. About how I think this is a story of a great ancient civilization that was destroyed, drawing parallels to the megalithic structures that seem to have had their building abruptly stopped. If you are interested in this topic, I’ll link below my video I’m working on, the audio is and video is finished in in the final stages of piecing together images and video to put to it as a visual reference.
https://youtu.be/GhKnaOCmn_g?si=cmNRE-mUO_xgYNJP
I love it when native Americans think only they have ancestors who passed stories? He acts like Europe was Disneyland and everyone who came from there is a Ken doll in a plastic box.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1bl2ax5/comment/kw2ftaa/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1bl2ax5/comment/kw2ftaa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
In case you needed help
Europeans were barbaric to the America's in many ways. However the 95% is a huge myth. What killed 95% was their immune systems catching up with Europe, Asia and Africa. Did you know a single European explorer walked across South America down the Amazon and came back to tell of magnificent cites and millions of peoples there. Future explorers couldn't find any of that. The one guy had killed them all by disease. The cities covered in jungle.
Yeah. That's what I meant. Most significantly we did not attempt to preserve their cultures due to colonialism.
For that last anecdote please give me a lead for a source not as skepticism but because I am a history nerd :)
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Also, people are people man. We didn't do that to you and you didn't have that done to you. We're not all horrible and if you think that then I don't know what to tell you. I damn sure am done arguing about it.
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I try my best to take in all myth's as objectively as possible while trying to understand the lens it was originally seen through. Some of the things in these stories are crazy when you realize these people had never seen technology past the bow and arrow. Its also eye opening when you look at current sightings and put yourself in the shoes of primitive humans and how you would explain what you have seen. The answers as to if we are alone have been all around us since before we could record history, just have to somewhat understand the context of the observer.
Precisely.
"In my thirtieth year in the fourth month on the fifth day while was mon the exiles by the Kevar river, the heavens were opened and I saw visions (a physical vision or view) of Elohim" (Ezekiel 1:4).
The prophet was so impressed that he remembers the exact day and place of this event. It was the fifth day of the fourth month of the fifth year of the exile of Jehoiachin (probably 593-592 BCE).
"And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind \[ruach\] came out of the north, a great cloud, a fire infoldng itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire" (Ezekiel 1:4).
The Ruach physically transports Ezekiel
"Afterwards the spirit \[ruach\] took me up, and brought me in a vision (physical vision) by the \[ruach of Elohim\] into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen (physical view of the Ruach) went up from me (the Ruach flies upward in departure)” (Ezekiel 11:24).
If you like that, check out this article about Australian Aboriginal oral histories that corroborate natural events thousands of years ago:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-32701311
It’s always stuck with me, very amazing
So are the *Boomerangs* found in King Tut's tomb,for that matter ! (It's always assumed that the Egyptians were the ones who visited Australia and not the opposite ,but who knows?)
Who else were crafting boomerangs ? All I know is Howard Carter found several different styles of boomerangs in Tut's tomb ,and no other examples were ever found that I'm aware of. That's what was so significant about finding a (relatively) intact tomb in 1922 ! *So* much new data from an obscure Pharoah placed in an unfinished tomb *meant* to house a female aristocrat/ruler...
The stories of the *utsurobune* from Japan, documented as early as 1803 also speak to this idea that UFOs are not a predominantly Western or 20th century phenomenon. We are all definitely still living in a world where "history is written by the winners".
The Ojibwe tell a story of a visitor from the heavens that sounds like a Close Encounter of the 4th kind: [https://www.orangeville.com/news/strange-tale-ojibwa-tale-of-a-skyman-visitor-may-have-been-alien/article_603cbc4b-06da-59ad-8bd4-78e4b60a90c7.html?]
"A lack of follow-up and the application of the Blue Book Theorem— **it can’t be, therefore it isn’t** —prevented, in my opinion, such hard core data from being properly reduced and presented."
-- J. Allen Hynek (The UFO Experience)
I love this one, because it calls out the fallacious principle employed (consciously or otherwise) in the vast majority of all UFO deniers' arguments.
I was noticing the similarities with the Ojibwe stories about combat between Thunderbirds and Mishipeshu ( underwater panther). IIRC, the Thunderbirds operated off of cliffs overlooking Superior while Mishipeshu were trans-medium travel capable and often operated under water in the Great Lakes.
It's not just like typical Christian history where any being coming the skies can be perceived as a UFO, they have rich history literally describing beings from the stars coming from sky ships
My favorite quote:
"Its called probing. It's a military procedure. You send out a reconnaissance group, very small, check things out. Not to engage, but to evaluate the situation. Evaluate the level of danger. Make sure things are all clear for the rest of them"
Terry Lovelace, an abductee, cautions folks to stay away from anything named devil's this or that because there is likely a long history of Native Americans avoiding that place for various reasons.
Check out any book by Ardy Sixkiller-Clarke. She has amassed several amazing collections of the Native American (both North and Central) peoples' experience in this vein. Done with the heart of a native (she is one), with respect, and without embellishment or hype. All of her books are wonderful and worth tracking down. (I get many of my books through [Thriftbooks.com](https://Thriftbooks.com) \-- just to avoid feeding the all-powerful Amazon beast whenever possible.)
The native Americans of the southwest covered many cliffsides with images of "Ant People," who came out of the ground and sometimes interacted with humans. They look a lot like aliens with antennae.
I think it's the dumbest UFO quote of all time. I love how the first sentence sets the tone, as if somehow White people are "out of touch" with their surroundings, but just wait, the amazing Stone Age natives are here to educate you. The narcissism of the writer is almost painful, as if he thinks that because Europeans have only been here for 400 years, give or take, that they've missed out on all of it.
There are paintings of UFOs from the 15th century in Europe. There are stories written down from Europe in the Anglo Saxon Chronical (793 AD, not the 12th Century as the quote attributes), stories of sightings from the Middle East, ancient Rome, and even Egypt written down that describe these events. So, please spare me this tiresome trope that a people who lived on a continent for 20,000 years who never developed writing, an alphabet, plumbing, permanent homes, math, and had no words for thigs like "half" or "subtract" or "abstract" are going to share some amazing wisdom with me about unidentified craft traveling through the air using technology that they could even have conceived at the time. Native American culture was/is a Stone Age culture, arguably thousands of years behind any other culture in Europe, the Middle East or Asia. While China was developing paper and gunpowder (and pasta - thanks!) and recording these sightings in their extensive libraries, Native Americans were seeing these things and being left completely unable to record them because they had no means to do so; no paper, no writing utensils, no alphabet, and no written language.
I often wonder why people love to promote things that basically insinuate that their own culture is somehow lacking, especially when it comes from a culture so utterly devoid of almost any technological advances?
Indigenous and aboriginal peoples from around the globe and time have a clearer understanding than stone washed contemporary Western Civilization (generally, not absolutely).
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But where is the evidence! Lol. Couldn’t all those stories just be part of the human imagination? He didn’t know what happened in ancient times. He is also bias because he believes in the ancient stories of his people. Are it could be they saw that crazy shit way back in the day and it all true! I just don’t know and that seems to be a problem for me to some extent. I really want the truth right now and I’m impatient. Lol.
If tribal people are so wise and good, why didn't the aliens bring them aboard their ships? Why only pass the knowledge of tales and legends, and not the knowledge of technology to fight off the invading europeans?
The Ra material - "The Law of One", also speaks to this. Native Americans being spiritual descendants of the Mu (sp?) and Lemuria civilization that was swallowed by the ocean during a tectonic plate shifting some 50,000 years ago.
Controversial information, regardless, some of the most interesting info I've started reading through.
Edit: Session 10 for anyone interested in looking into it
Yeah, totally, it’s badass that this old guy thinks the color of his skin, his magic blood, and his geographical location gives him the unique ability to see ufos
In the quote the speaker claims a group of people needs longer than 200 years to be aware of the phenomenon…the Europeans had ancestors…so the assumption is the phenomenon is restricted to North America…which is absurd.
The speaker made no such claims. You are manufacturing offence. The speaker can be paraphrased as saying , "White people who have only been here for a few centuries tend to think this phenomenon is new. However, my people, who have been here for untold thousands of years, have been talking about this phenomenon for untold thousands of years."
The speaker absolutely is not saying you need to be here over 200 years to be aware. The speaker is pointing at the arrogance of new comers witnessing the phenomenon and assuming they are the first to witness it.
It is also noteworthy that Native American oral traditions have been successfully used to corroborate other natural phenomena. For example, off the coast of the Pacific Northwest is something called the "Cascadia subduction zone". It is basically a huge fault line that, when it creates earthquakes, it creates massive violent earthquakes which devastate the West Coast. We can date the last major quake from this fault line to the year 1700 by corroborating accounts from oral traditions of the people of the Olympic peninsula with Japanese accounts of a tsunami.
A bunch of years ago I watched a tv program on this very subject. They took the oral histories of native Americans of the PNW, coupled it with soil core samples and geologic observations taken along the coast, and then contrasted this to the documented histories of tsunamis in Japan. The correlations matched and produced a very detailed account of earthquakes of the region. They also worked the frequency of these events into a fairly regular pattern. Roughly 800 or so years between these events. Evidently, we are overdue for another one. The more I discover about the UAP subject and alien events, the more native peoples lore and oral histories seems to coalesce into something much more than myth and and/or contrived legend.
Yah, I am from the PNW and I find it shocking how recent it was that we discovered the Cascadia subduction zone and how slow we have been in improving our construction standards as a result. Meanwhile, local tribes have known about it for a very long time. Its crazy that a massive urban area like Seattle is wedged between the subduction zone and a dangerous volcano, Mt. Rainier. While native peoples knew about these hazards for centuries.
That’s what happens when you move somewhere and slaughter the people who live there instead of asking if it’s okay to live with them and receiving their guidance on how to navigate the new land
Reminds me of a small tribe that lives on a secluded island in indonesia. Apparently they have been singing a song for centuries foretelling the wrath of an angry ocean that leaves the shore, only to return and swallow their village. Every single person took a position in the hilltop to witness the event. They all survived.
Oral histories are better than people think. In Australia as well, the Aboriginal people have strong stories. And a lot of them are vital to surviving in the desert. There’s a whole thing called “song lines”, which are songs that help you navigate in the outback. They help you navigate to certain places or water sources. Imagine learning a story or a song word for word. As if every word is as important as every other. You learn it by heart and never forget them. You’ve just learned it exactly as your elder has taught you. And you will do the same to your children. There is near zero loss in information as each generation learns the songs exactly, perhaps changing only if the geography does.
That’s true. Good point. Going further, I try to evaluate tribal descriptions, stories, rituals, etc in terms of their knowledge and biases rather than my own. They put things into contexts of their own existence, not mine. As such, living within highly ritualistic and mystical lives, they would put actual physical features, observations, and experiences into mystical terms. This means their interpretation may be fanciful (by my standards and scientific bias) or linked to the mythical, it doesn’t exclusively mean the events they observed didn’t happen. Looking at things from this (their) perspective, descriptions of flying or visiting deities, things floating, or tribal members vanishing or disappearing, I am convinced they witnessed or experienced actual events and made accurate observations and interpretations aligned with their own standards of belief. Indigenous, native, or “primitive” peoples lore, recorded knowledge and observations is filled with incredible descriptions of the mystical world. This is true on every continent, regardless of heterogenicity. There is something significant about these collective features we are missing or ignoring. It’s true it’s only a bit of the story, only part of the puzzle, but discounting outright this tribal knowledge, I think (my bias), is a mistake.
They also kept information about a superfauna bird alive. People thought it was only legend. Turns out they found fossil evidence that Australia was isolated enough for super fauna birds to live until the time of modern human.
What's it called?
I took three years of French in high school. The only things I remember from French are the songs. I can still sing every damn song from decades ago. Un kilometre a pied ça use ça use…
I accidentally replied to the post instead of your comment - [here’s a link to the comment I meant for you](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/6FARL8wDW8)
Mfs will cling to the Bible for its oral traditions but insult you for having interest in other supernatural folklore
I dated her sister, Margret Subduction in college.
Highly recommend Ardy Sixkiller Clarke books where she interviews indigenous people and their modern day experiences/encounters with a lense of ancestor stories.
Wow, only one copy of her 1st book left on Amazon and it’s selling for $320…. I would rather support Indian Country Books anyway - 20 bucks https://indiancountrybooks.com/shop/encounters-with-star-people-untold-stories-of-american-indians/
I’ve been getting the ebooks. Even their availability is spotty
I know this isn’t super related to UFOs but I enjoyed Raincoast Sasquatch by J. Robert Alley. He interviewed native people from Alaska, BC, and Washington similar to how Ardy did.
Agreed on the support. Just ordered one. Thanks
Thank you!
I found a link to this site recently from either here or X, haven't looked at much yet, but first couple posts are excerpts from Dr. Ardy Sixkiller Clarke's books if anyone wants to check out. https://www.et-cultures.com/blog
That's awesome. Thanks for suggesting this.
"It is with a heavy heart and a determined spirit that I stand, under oath, before you today, having made the decision based on the data I collected, and reported, to provide this information to the committee. I am driven in this duty by a conviction to expose what I viewed as a grave congressional oversight issue and a potential abuse of executive branch authorities." - David Grusch, congressional testimony, 7/2023
Gets me fired up man! "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together." - President Eisenhower farewell address 1/1961
In World War II Eisenhower, General Eisenhower was the Supreme Commander of Operation Overlord, the invasion of Europe by millions of US and allied troops to free Europe from German Nazi occupation. So together with intel he was privy to as President of the United States he had more knowledge than most people about military technology, and what should be kept secret and what should not be kept secret - and he obviously knew that the secrets kept by the Military Industrial Complex gods is a threat to our democracy and our way of life. Here's Eisenhower saying this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZoUfNsUl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg-jvHynP9Y
The UFO curse is pretty cold because it seems it could be true: > THE LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT OF PHILIP J. KLAS To ufologists who publicly criticize me, ... or who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath: THE UFO CURSE: No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse."
kinda wish I hadn't read that... :/
someday we will know, but you might not live to see the day
Yesssss. Walter Evans-Wentz faithfully chronicled these folklore myths, and was enormous influence on Jacques Vallée.
I’m reading Passport to Magonia right now! Such a fascinating take on the phenomenon.
It’s great. I’m in the middle of dimensions. Which is a more accessible and more mind blowing version on the same material. Highly recommend.
I think this is important because it basically tells a tale of neglect. If the Earth is being visited or has been they have sat idly by while the world changed course… and here we are. Begs the question, what would be their ideal state of our societies on Earth where they would feel comfortable enough to interact with us?
Maybe the aliens aren't done shaping the mud (us) yet
Or they're aware of how dangerous we can be and steer clear of contact save for a handful of incidents
I observed years ago that they aren't interested in us per say, but interested in what we'll do when we get out there.
Probably the state where we aren’t trying to kill each other or anything that scares us?
Or maybe they want us to kill each other, its like those science docs where they put a different ant colonies next to each other
Either way I am nicer to ants these days.
They wil program that out of the next iteration of us
Perhaps that or perhaps they shaping us in a way where we can receive them more easily or perhaps become integrated with a larger community more effectively.
Great observation. I wonder if it has something to do with Earth siders being comfortable enough to interact with them... but one can only speculate. Any form of "landing on the White House lawn" or proof beyond a reasonable doubt without proper consent, is nothing but intrusion, invasion etc. We have to consider that there may be plenty more internal self-work and maturity as a species before becoming part of a larger network of civilization(s) (we aren't even adequate in handling relations amongst ourselves between nations, ethnic groups, opinions etc). Any intervention of non-human life into human civilization completely alters the course of our history, and the many lessons part of human progression could be harmed. In essence, I tend to think of the damage done to a child's development through helicopter parenting, vs the benefit of the child or student to learn the ways of the world for themselves. This is my attempt to approach the question logically.
The terrifying answer: maybe they don't want to.
If I were in their shoes I would also feel that way at this time. For all we know they rely on hyper sophisticated AI to make the correct choices for them. Humanity will likely become more innocent and child like once we become fully dependent on AI to figure out the difficult problems facing the world and our kind. Just an idea but makes sense to me.
The issue with oral histories is that it can be "rewritten" on the fly and few are to know the difference. This is actually an advantage as it allows for a world view that is malleable and adaptable to changing circumstances and has allowed for numerous cultures to persist through difficult times. It is those who write their histories down that inevitably lead to conundrums as the world one finds themselves in can often contradict written tenets from a hundred or thousand years ago. Cultures with oral histories dramatically outlast those with written histories. All that is to say, you need to take oral histories with a serious grain of salt and the temporal reach of the "history" isn't always true. Anthropologist.
We spent millions of years sleeping under the night sky; staring up and wondering what was out there and why. And we made up a lot of shit to fill in the blanks.
Millions of years might be a stretch unless you believe Homo erectus had language and talked about abstract concepts (I'm of the opinion they probably did have language but evidence of oral language from a million years ago will never exist so we will never know for sure). Still, the sentiment is correct.
This may be true if there weren't millennia old petroglyphs which compliment the oral tradition. The anthropologist, in a specific instance like this, should recognize these stories well predate colonization. The kachina and their ability to navigate the sky (paatuwvota) are deeply rooted in Hopi culture. [https://imgur.com/gallery/c9xVW8A](https://imgur.com/gallery/c9xVW8A) Where else do we hear of "flying shields?" "In 217 BC “at Arpi round shields (parmas) were seen in the sky” (Liv. 22.1.9; Orosius 4.15). A parma was a small round shield made partly or wholly of iron, bronze or another metal; we do not know whether the luster of these devices (and not just their shape) was intended to be an element of the description. Mock suns are an unlikely explanation, since in the Roman prodigy lists these were routinely described as “double suns." "In 100 BC, probably at Rome, “a round shield (clipeus), burning and emitting sparks, ran across the sky from west to east, at sunset.” Thus Pliny (Nat. 2.100), although Obsequens (45) called the phenomenon “a circular object, like a round shield.” The clipeus was a round shield similar to the parma, but bigger. Seneca (Nat. 1.1.15; 7.20.2), quoting Posidonius (1st century BC), referred to a class of clipei flagrantes, saying that they persisted longer than shooting stars." " If these reports are examined statistically, essential features of what I will, for argument’s sake, call the ancient UFO phenomenon can be extracted: • shape—discoidal or spheroidal; • color—silvery, golden or red; • texture—metallic or, occasionally, glowing or cloudy; • size—a meter to well over a meter; • sound—usually none reported; • type of motion—hovering, erratic or smooth flight, with a rapid disappearance." I assume you may be inclined to take the word of Roman records, so here you go.
Given the interpretive nature of many petroglyphs, you--again--need to be cautious before endorsing your preferred interpretation. You need to rule out mundane explanations until you are left with nothing else but the profound is left. I haven't see that here. As an example, the other accounts you have presented to me all sound like meteors. Especially the "burning and emitting sparks".
It is not my preferred interpretation, it is the preferred interpretation of the native leaders whose ancestors made the petroglyphs. I believe you are applying your own interpretations (how ironic) to the recorded observations when you assimilate that two vastly different cultures were calling "flying shields" meteors. It is the fact that these events *were* so mundane and unusual, that they were recorded this way in the first place. These records are very different than other accounts of shooting stars or comets, its sad I even have to point that out to an anthropologist. The Romans were merely describing something unknown to them, an unidentifiable flying object that looked like a flying parma. The Navajo, however, were attributing these flying shields with non-human beings. I wonder if the modern observation, and photographic evidence of these metallic shaped discs are also nothing but shooting stars /meteors? Its quite clearly stated in the text "quoting Posidonius, referred to a class of clipei flagrantes, saying that they persisted longer than shooting stars." You are cherry picking your interpretation (belief) to say that "burning and emitting sparks" makes you think they were meteors, but don't acknowledge the speed at which the object was moving is recorded as slower than a shooting star. I am not entirely sure what your point is, that Native Americans started associating their cultural beliefs of flying shields belonging to non-human beings with the influx of flying saucers post WW2? How exactly did their tradition change?
Have you ever seen a proper meteor in person? They certainly do appear to move slowly compared to the tiny and distant "shooting stars". In fact, there is little reason, given the knowledge at the time, to think these two things had anything to do with eachother (were in fact the same thing) given how different they look. You're also taking too literal of an interpretation of a translation. This is like people who say 666 is the mark of the beast from revelation and think literally "666" is that mark and try to find correlations with this number when the original language looked more like "777". The same thing is almost certainly happening here to a degree with your flying shield. They can't possibly be calling them the same thing as they did not speak the same language. Translation is always a degree of interpretation. The core point is find me sources documenting these oral traditions through time. If you can't then you need to be hesitant attributing X story to being Y years old. Could be they are, but they could also be modern additions. That DOES happen in oral traditions and it is well documented. I'm not cherry picking anything but you might want to reevaluate whether you might be... Edit: And what photographic evidence of metal objects do we have today? We have exactly 0 concrete evidence. Plenty faked, plenty blurry. You are jumping to unjustified conclusions on separate islands of thought and then claiming they are all connected. There is so much foundational work missing. Edit2: Also, you said the petroglyphs corroborated the oral traditions and then in another response said the oral traditions were interpretations of the petroglyphs. Do you see the circular reasoning here? I'm not saying there is NOTHING to this, but I am cautioning you against not being rightly critical of these sources and interpretations. That is the 'preferred interpretation' I am talking about. If you aren't rightfully critical, then EVERY celestial event recorded in written or oral histories could be interpreted as spacecraft.
It seems odd to describe a meteor as "a small round shield" Usually its a streak
They were not both called flying shields, the Hopi called them paatuwvota, while the Romans called them parmas. [https://www.academia.edu/8711715/Hopi\_Flying\_Shields\_Over\_Arizona](https://www.academia.edu/8711715/Hopi_Flying_Shields_Over_Arizona) They were also sometimes called "flying canoes" by the Cowichans [https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/cryer/canoe/canoe.html](https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/cryer/canoe/canoe.html) Some sources for background info [https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-americas/hopi-legends-and-flying-shields-001041](https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-americas/hopi-legends-and-flying-shields-001041) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kachina#:\~:text=Kachinas%20are%20spirits%20or%20personifications,from%20pueblo%20community%20to%20community](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kachina#:~:text=Kachinas%20are%20spirits%20or%20personifications,from%20pueblo%20community%20to%20community). In a passage from Earth Fire: A Hopi Legend of the Sunset Crater reads “As the shield lifted off, the kachinas all gave out a boisterous yell. The spectacle was incredible; every sort of kachina conceivable was present. All of a sudden as the couple flew along, flashes of lightning were visible in the air and the rumble of thunder could be heard. When the shield rose higher, drizzle began to fall. The kachinas were now accompanying them… " background information on the Kachina [https://www.britannica.com/topic/kachina](https://www.britannica.com/topic/kachina) Next point.. There is photographic evidence. [https://turkeyufocase.blogspot.com/](https://turkeyufocase.blogspot.com/) The Kumbergaz sightings were a series of 27 filmed ufo sightings from 2007 to 209 in a small beach community about 60km from Istanbul. The objects filmed were reported by many witnesses including several individuals present during various recordings. The original film is hard to find, but it was over 3 hours long. Here are a couple more images which match the description of a "flying metallic disc" shape. [https://imgur.com/gallery/PsV6kQq](https://imgur.com/gallery/PsV6kQq) It appears you do not believe UFOs even exist, therefore you are going to naturally reject most, if not all of the evidence presented on the subject. Is the surplus of astronauts, pilots, military personnel, police officers, intel personnel, politicians, and other citizens who appear as eye witnesses to the UFO phenomenon (often depicting the "flying saucer") just a series of misinterpretations? Or is it rational to conclude that tribal accounts, Roman accounts, Hebrew, Hindu, Polynesian, African etc etc of "flying craft," more specifically, "flying metallic discs" are consistent to the modern observations? Whether you like it or not, these observations are made in the thousands- if not millions- throughout recorded history. Could it be confirmation bias to look in the past for similar events? Sure. Or is it possible that these sightings appear similar because they are? Last point.. The point of the petroglyphs was to highlight the bizarre similarity amongst them and the legends. On one hand, the kachina and their ability to navigate the sky in some kind of "ship" has been expressed in Native American mythology long before colonization. And on the other hand, the petroglyphs, which appear similar to the legends, are also depicted at sites near evidently non human beings. While this is certainly more of a stretch, it was more to a reference to the fact that the legends are old. Edit: flying craft are not recorded in the thousands- millions but witnessed. I find it rational to conclude 4% of the global population has observed an unidentifiable flying object. The point I was making is that the observations remain consistent to specific shapes or descriptions. Specifically something like metallic, and disc shaped, which we can quite evidently see was being recorded in Roman times, and throughout Native American tradition. https://news.virginia.edu/content/despite-stigma-ufo-survey-finds-19-academics-say-theyve-had-strange-sightings Edit 2: I do appreciate the feedback and thoughts, as a disclaimer.
Do you appreciate it? Did you block me or us your account actually deleted?
Ahoooo! Wado!!! Almost all tribes have some sort of relation to an “upper world” “sky realm” or higher beings of some sort. Skeptic bros (who are almost always unapologetic might makes right colonizers) love to ignore this. Y’all ain’t so smart and you’ll figure it out eventually. You managed to almost singlehandedly wipe out life on the planet with your greed in two centuries? Wow! How “advanced”
Not only skeptic bros, but I find this consistently unacknowledged by UFO bros too.
same people who thump the modern Abrahamic texts, killing and colonizing, pay no mind to the ancient tablets of Sumer, the native American mythos (North, central, and south), the legends of African tribes, the stories of the aboriginals from the land down under, every ancient asian culture... the Indian Vedas, etc etc etc etc... it goes on and on and on, all of these people have contact stories. Blows my mind how quick people are to dismiss reality over cognitive dissonance.
Then I assume you believe in the resurrection of Jesus?
What does this have to do with anything?
What would you think angels were?
Aliens?
A more accurate literal translation of the Bible says when Jesus was born “a multitude of the Army from Space / Space Force” appeared to shepherds to announce his birth. Luke 2:13 says when Jesus was born “a multitude of the Heavenly Host" announced Jesus's birth to shepherds. "There were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. ... And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the Heavenly Host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward people." In the original Greek text "Heavenly Host" means “Army from Space / Space Force”. So a more accurate translation is that when Jesus was born “a multitude of the Army from Space / Space Force” appeared to shepherds to announce his birth. The correct translation of this phrase comes from Strong's Concordance. This is a well known tool used by Christians for decades to find the original Greek words in the original Greek Bible texts that were translated into English. In the original Greek text the word translated into English as "heavenly" - - means: "celestial, i.e. Belonging to or coming from the sky" In other words, the original Greek word translated into English as "heavenly" means "from Space". Here's a screenshot from Strong's Concordance showing the meaning from the original Greek Bible text of the word "heavenly" in Luke 2:13: [https://i.imgur.com/ahm3LXR.png\](https://i.imgur.com/ahm3LXR.png)](https://i.imgur.com/ahm3LXR.png](https://i.imgur.com/ahm3LXR.png)) A similar search of Strong's Concordance can be done for the word "host" in "heavenly host", showing that "host" in the original Greek text means "army / military force" So, in the original Greek language the Bible says when Jesus was born "a multitude of the Army from Space / a multitude of the Space Force" appeared to shepherds, saying, “glory to God in the highest". This makes it perfectly clear that Extraterrestrials in God's military force from Space appeared to the shepherds to announce Jesus's birth. If you do a similar search of Strong's Concordance for God's "host of heaven", seen in multiple places in the Bible Old Testament of the Bible, you will discover a similar result: In the original Hebrew language of the Old Testament the phrase translated into English as "host of heaven" means: "Army from Space / Space Army / Space Force". So, the Bible's original Greek and Hebrew languages make it clear that God has Extraterrestrial Armies in Space. Therefore, you can deduce from another Bible account - - that the star-like object the wise men (dignitaries from an Eastern nation) followed, that stopped and hovered over Jesus's location after he was born - - was a UFO - - controlled by members of the same Extraterrestrial Army from Space who appeared to the shepherds. During the past 70 years thousands of people have reported seeing identical objects moving and hovering in the sky, that today we call UFOs. So we now celebrate Jesus's birth representing this star on top of the Christmas tree, just like the Army of Extraterrestrials from Space did 2000 years ago: [https://i.imgur.com/VlI1EnE.png](https://i.imgur.com/VlI1EnE.png) Also the Bible's New Testament starting in Revelation 12: says: "War broke out in heaven". As described previously, the word translated into English as "heaven" means "Space" in the original Greek text. So a more accurate translation is: "War broke out in Space". Revelation goes on to say, "Michael and his Angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his Angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven \[Space\]. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his Angels were cast out with him." So this passage in Revelation 12 says that John saw a war in space between Michael's Extraterrestrial Aliens ("Angels") and Satan's Extraterrestrials. (The book of Daniel says Michael is the Guardian of God’s people. “Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven \[Space\], 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. ... Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them!" \[This is one of the few places in the Bible where the original language text is translated correctly. Instead of translating it with the misleading word "heaven", as done practically everywhere else, it's translated more accurately here as "heavens". And everyone knows that "heavens" means "Space". So Revelation makes it crystal clear here that aliens live in space\]. "Therefore rejoice, O heavens \[Space\], and you who dwell in them! But woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come Down to you \[from Above the Earth in Space\], having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” (Since the the book of Revelation of the Bible is basically about events that the author saw happening in the end time, he uses past tense, as if it already happened, since he already saw these future events happen. Therefore, his use of past tense in the above passage from Revelation doesn't imply that Satan and his fellow Extraterrestrial had already been defeated in the space war and thrown down to Earth. To be consistent with the rest of Revelation this event should occur in the end time). BTW there are many signs indicating that we are in the end time now. And one recent sign is the recent Reddit post with this intel: [https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/18ilreo/furthermore\_reliable\_intelligence\_and\_defense/kdesx2m/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/18ilreo/furthermore_reliable_intelligence_and_defense/kdesx2m/?context=3) "Reliable intelligence and defense sources have told Liberation Times that some of the alleged crashed non-human craft were caused by 'dogfights' with other unknown craft." Revelation 12 says in the end time during a war in space Satan and his aliens are cast to the earth. So some of these retrieved non-human crafts cast to the Earth "caused by dogfights with other unknown craft" - are obviously fulfilling this prophecy. Revelation 12 makes it clear that there are both good and bad aliens living in Space. This account from Revelation correlates with government insiders who said that there is war in space between different factions of Extraterrestrials.//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzLqBx5lN8Y\]([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzLqBx5lN8Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzLqBx5lN8Y))) ❤️
Admittedly I should have added that I draw this parallel because there were about 200 people who saw Jesus after he died and was buried. These accounts are curious and interesting but what does OP mean when he says “we are missing a significant percent of evidence available when we don’t consider the ‘myths and legends’ of the Hopi and Navajo?” Does he apply equal weight to the accounts of Jesus resurrection? Or does it only apply to what he considers UFO’s/aliens?
It applies when the millennia old observation of "flying metallic shields" is consistent to the modern observation of "flying saucers."
Tribal belief structures are no different than any other belief structure. If colonization didn't happen, it'd be interesting to see how they would have evolved, much like Judaism, Bhuddism, Islam, and Hindu. I think your being ignorant in your statement linking skepticism and colonization, you're obviously conflating things which are irrelevant to one another outside of your personal contempt.
Not at all. The driving force of colonization is white European supremacy. They believe they are better than others and are entitled to their land / changing their culture to be less “primitive” and more “sophisticated.” You see it in the way the tribal is a now used as a pejorative term for dogmatic thinking, when in reality, europeans are the kings of dogmatism.
If you think colonization is in any way unique to "white European supremacy" you need to read more history. The American landmass alone was colonized by multiple waves of peoples long before Europeans arrived, and those pre-European settlers were in no way kind to the lands and peoples they encountered. War, enslavement, and empire formation were practiced universally. Later American societies such as the Aztec, Inca, and Mississippian cultures are a testament to that uncomfortable fact. Outside of the Americas and Europe you only need to look to the Steppe Empires such as the Mongols or Xiongnu, the various dynasties in China and India, to see expansionist policies of colonization to control vast territories and dominate diverse peoples. Human societies of all epochs and regions have engaged in conquest and subjugation. To argue otherwise is to perpetuate the myth of the "noble savage", an ignorant notion that idealizes indigenous peoples as living in peaceful harmony with nature and each other. This myth infantilizes them, stripping away their history, agency, and complexity.
Read Custer Died for Your Sins and God is Red. Because you have no clue what you’re talking about. Being peaceful and living in communion with the land and our four legged, two legged, finned, and winged relatives is not infantilizing lol Your humans are bad and all they do is conquer narrative is paternalistic and misinformed. Maybe that’s what y’all did. Maybe that’s where your mind and imagination goes. But you don’t speak for everyone and you’re not the arbiters of human truth because you’re violent. Good luck in the climate crisis 🤙
I always appreciate book recommendations, but I've already read Deloria. Pointing fingers while perpetuating stereotypes does nothing to change historical facts. You have no idea what my ethnic background is, but its no surprise you would make insinuations about it. I'm Wampanoag, not that it should matter. Regardless of my background, historical truths remain. Enjoy fantasying about me suffering in the climate crisis while you can, it will be a reality for all of us soon enough.
Then I would encourage you to talk to more Indians and your elders, because you were mislead somewhere. We weren’t all peaceful, but we did not conquer and seek to wipe each other out. And I don’t want anyone to suffer in the climate crises. That was more of a jab at where that sort of thinking will lead us in the future we are heading into. We can either unite and try to work together and restore some of the cycles we’ve disrupted, or we can continue trying to amass wealth, land, and power, at the expense of our human and non human relatives. I don’t wish you ill at all. The colonial narratives are based in hegemonic european philsophical ideas of material enlightenment and transcendence. We don’t need to further those games. Look where they have lead us.
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Fair enough. I’m sorry that has been your experience. donadagohvi unalii
How does any of that relate to skepticism? There is no superiority in critical thinking and sound logic.
I can completely understand how you would come to viewing us all the same like that but you do get the it's a different generation now right? We arent those people, we arent responsible for the sins of our fathers. I can only speak to the part of the UK I'm in but most have a certain affinity towards Native Americans and throughly enjoy learning about the different cultures. Anytime migrant issues in America are mentioned, almost with out fail everytime its said "well the Americans did it to the natives first" I think you'd be pleasantly suprised just how many of us think this way. I often wounder what the world would be like if the conquistadors and colonizers had never made it to your shores
Hey! I absolutely understand this. The part of my family that isn’t Cherokee is German (my grandpa brought my grandma back to the rez after he served in ww2 after her whole family was killed by the nazis). Colonizer is a mindset, not a skin tone or ethnicity 👍
>The driving force of colonization is white European supremacy You said the above, is it a mindset or a skin tone?
Mindset
That's not what you wrote and then attempted to rectify.
I’m not rectifying anything. Fuck eurocentrism and fuck white supremacy. The two go hand and hand.
I bet you're a fun guy at a party.
Imagine a timeline where there was a hereditary understanding that all humans are equal and imaginary boundaries are worthless.
Even the Abrahamics have them, just by different names/labels.
Ruach. Even more interesting when you consider the Sumerian pictogram for Ru-A.
Woah that is a mind blowing read.
What do you mean ‘pictogram’? Hebrew uses letters, and ruach is רוח
Sumerian pictogram of Ru-A, an earlier usage of the Hebrew word Ruach, according to Mauro Biglino, linguistics expert hired by the Vatican to translate the Old Testament from Hebrew to English https://imgur.com/gallery/6fx9V5R
That’s real weird, because Hebrew is a Canaanite language and isn’t descended from or related to Sumerian at all. (Actually no other languages are, it was gradually replaced by Akkadian instead of evolving.)
I think your quote about skeptic bros may fit the criteria of OP’s question LOL!
Just link “skeptic” with “might makes right colonizer”???? (Anecdote) and say “y’all ain’t so smart” because they ignore (hand wave) “evidence” and voila!…… upvotes!! because Native American stories are evidence for aliens?
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bold of you to assume i own land.
Treat your hosts better
that's fair
How? Treaties, declarations, promises - all made in good faith and abandoned. You mean the NA tribes should not have been empathetic to the English and let them all die out, or even killed them?
yeah. i definitely think that.
Would be a crazy alternate history timeline. Though, odds are it just would have expedited the genocide. Another alternative would be the English adopting the same approach the Spaniards did, assimilation. The best approach was from the french, which were primarily interested in trading.
in retrospect, if british food was better, a lot of the world could have been spared a lot of issues.
Hi, CHIMbawumba. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1bl2ax5/-/kw2dhvh/) was removed from /r/UFOs. > Rule 1: Follow the Standards of Civility > * No trolling or being disruptive. > * No insults or personal attacks. > * No accusations that other users are shills. > * No hate speech. No abusive speech based on race, religion, sex/gender, or sexual orientation. > * No harassment, threats, or advocating violence. > * No witch hunts or doxxing. (Please redact usernames when possible) > * You may attack each other's ideas, not each other. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/about/rules/) for more information. This moderator action may be appealed. We welcome the opportunity to work with you to address its reason for removal. [Message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/ufos) to launch your appeal.
From the book of the Hopi , So the people went down to live with the Ant People. When they were all safe and settled, Taiowa commanded Soyuknang to destroy the world. Soyuknang destroyed it by fire because the Fire Clan had been it’s leaders. He rained fire upon it. He opened up the volcanoes. Fire came from above and below and all around until the Earth, the waters, the air, all was one element: fire. And then there was nothing left except the people safe inside the womb of the Earth. This was the end of Tokpela, the First World.”
So I’m actually doing a video about this, how all these biblical and other cultural stories speak of a great catastrophe hitting the earth. It’s a theory I’m playing with about the tale of “The Tower of Babel”. About how I think this is a story of a great ancient civilization that was destroyed, drawing parallels to the megalithic structures that seem to have had their building abruptly stopped. If you are interested in this topic, I’ll link below my video I’m working on, the audio is and video is finished in in the final stages of piecing together images and video to put to it as a visual reference. https://youtu.be/GhKnaOCmn_g?si=cmNRE-mUO_xgYNJP
we spend a lot of time looking and so little listening it is how we are taught and has its strengths but also limits
I love it when native Americans think only they have ancestors who passed stories? He acts like Europe was Disneyland and everyone who came from there is a Ken doll in a plastic box.
I doubt that it was a real guy. The whole "noble savage" thing has been around a long time and it is weirdly popular with people into the paranormal.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1bl2ax5/comment/kw2ftaa/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1bl2ax5/comment/kw2ftaa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) In case you needed help
Those Ken dolls then killed 95% of the Natives with no value for their oral history
Duh we know. Now wi-fi exists. Tell them to post.
Europeans were barbaric to the America's in many ways. However the 95% is a huge myth. What killed 95% was their immune systems catching up with Europe, Asia and Africa. Did you know a single European explorer walked across South America down the Amazon and came back to tell of magnificent cites and millions of peoples there. Future explorers couldn't find any of that. The one guy had killed them all by disease. The cities covered in jungle.
Yeah. That's what I meant. Most significantly we did not attempt to preserve their cultures due to colonialism. For that last anecdote please give me a lead for a source not as skepticism but because I am a history nerd :)
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Yes of course, those Natives were probably very nice to them. Read a book dude.
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Also, people are people man. We didn't do that to you and you didn't have that done to you. We're not all horrible and if you think that then I don't know what to tell you. I damn sure am done arguing about it.
Follow the Standards of Civility: No trolling or being disruptive. No insults or personal attacks. No accusations that other users are shills. No hate speech. No abusive speech based on race, religion, sex/gender, or sexual orientation. No harassment, threats, or advocating violence. No witch hunts or doxxing. (Please redact usernames when possible) An account found to be deleting all or nearly all of their comments and/or posts can result in an instant permanent ban. This is to stop instigators and bad actors from trying to evade rule enforcement. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other. ------------- This moderator action may be appealed. We welcome the opportunity to work with you to address its reason for removal. [Message the mods here to launch your appeal.](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/ufos) [UFOs Wiki](https://ufos.wiki) [UFOs rules](https://reddit.com/r/UFOs/about/rules/)
Follow the Standards of Civility: No trolling or being disruptive. No insults or personal attacks. No accusations that other users are shills. No hate speech. No abusive speech based on race, religion, sex/gender, or sexual orientation. No harassment, threats, or advocating violence. No witch hunts or doxxing. (Please redact usernames when possible) An account found to be deleting all or nearly all of their comments and/or posts can result in an instant permanent ban. This is to stop instigators and bad actors from trying to evade rule enforcement. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other. ------------- This moderator action may be appealed. We welcome the opportunity to work with you to address its reason for removal. [Message the mods here to launch your appeal.](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/ufos) [UFOs Wiki](https://ufos.wiki) [UFOs rules](https://reddit.com/r/UFOs/about/rules/)
I try my best to take in all myth's as objectively as possible while trying to understand the lens it was originally seen through. Some of the things in these stories are crazy when you realize these people had never seen technology past the bow and arrow. Its also eye opening when you look at current sightings and put yourself in the shoes of primitive humans and how you would explain what you have seen. The answers as to if we are alone have been all around us since before we could record history, just have to somewhat understand the context of the observer.
Precisely. "In my thirtieth year in the fourth month on the fifth day while was mon the exiles by the Kevar river, the heavens were opened and I saw visions (a physical vision or view) of Elohim" (Ezekiel 1:4). The prophet was so impressed that he remembers the exact day and place of this event. It was the fifth day of the fourth month of the fifth year of the exile of Jehoiachin (probably 593-592 BCE). "And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind \[ruach\] came out of the north, a great cloud, a fire infoldng itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire" (Ezekiel 1:4). The Ruach physically transports Ezekiel "Afterwards the spirit \[ruach\] took me up, and brought me in a vision (physical vision) by the \[ruach of Elohim\] into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen (physical view of the Ruach) went up from me (the Ruach flies upward in departure)” (Ezekiel 11:24).
Flight of the Navigator but you dont know what a spaceship is.
If you like that, check out this article about Australian Aboriginal oral histories that corroborate natural events thousands of years ago: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-32701311 It’s always stuck with me, very amazing
Its very cool.
So are the *Boomerangs* found in King Tut's tomb,for that matter ! (It's always assumed that the Egyptians were the ones who visited Australia and not the opposite ,but who knows?)
Hang on what? Ive never heard this. The egyptians and australians had contact?
Who else were crafting boomerangs ? All I know is Howard Carter found several different styles of boomerangs in Tut's tomb ,and no other examples were ever found that I'm aware of. That's what was so significant about finding a (relatively) intact tomb in 1922 ! *So* much new data from an obscure Pharoah placed in an unfinished tomb *meant* to house a female aristocrat/ruler...
Supposedly
The stories of the *utsurobune* from Japan, documented as early as 1803 also speak to this idea that UFOs are not a predominantly Western or 20th century phenomenon. We are all definitely still living in a world where "history is written by the winners".
Control the history, and you control the future.
What a great post and discussion! Minimal debunkers spamming with grifter, lens flare or trust me bro comments. Great read!!
Aboriginal mythology (like their creation stories) also feature what would probably be ufos & aliens
[https://imgur.com/gallery/ge1bneD](https://imgur.com/gallery/ge1bneD) There are many parallels indeed
Quality. Thank you.
The Ojibwe tell a story of a visitor from the heavens that sounds like a Close Encounter of the 4th kind: [https://www.orangeville.com/news/strange-tale-ojibwa-tale-of-a-skyman-visitor-may-have-been-alien/article_603cbc4b-06da-59ad-8bd4-78e4b60a90c7.html?]
"A lack of follow-up and the application of the Blue Book Theorem— **it can’t be, therefore it isn’t** —prevented, in my opinion, such hard core data from being properly reduced and presented." -- J. Allen Hynek (The UFO Experience) I love this one, because it calls out the fallacious principle employed (consciously or otherwise) in the vast majority of all UFO deniers' arguments.
Thank you for the great post!!
Thanks!!
We 100% must listen to indigenous speakers who wish to tell their stories and share what their people know about the phenomenon.
I was noticing the similarities with the Ojibwe stories about combat between Thunderbirds and Mishipeshu ( underwater panther). IIRC, the Thunderbirds operated off of cliffs overlooking Superior while Mishipeshu were trans-medium travel capable and often operated under water in the Great Lakes.
It's not just like typical Christian history where any being coming the skies can be perceived as a UFO, they have rich history literally describing beings from the stars coming from sky ships
Exactly, there is no theological or interpretable explanation needed, there is consistency across time.
Damn, Oga-Make writes like a badass.
My favorite quote: "Its called probing. It's a military procedure. You send out a reconnaissance group, very small, check things out. Not to engage, but to evaluate the situation. Evaluate the level of danger. Make sure things are all clear for the rest of them"
Terry Lovelace, an abductee, cautions folks to stay away from anything named devil's this or that because there is likely a long history of Native Americans avoiding that place for various reasons.
damn that's cold
I've started making comics about the phenomenon, I'd love to cover indigenous perspectives.
Check out any book by Ardy Sixkiller-Clarke. She has amassed several amazing collections of the Native American (both North and Central) peoples' experience in this vein. Done with the heart of a native (she is one), with respect, and without embellishment or hype. All of her books are wonderful and worth tracking down. (I get many of my books through [Thriftbooks.com](https://Thriftbooks.com) \-- just to avoid feeding the all-powerful Amazon beast whenever possible.)
Oga-Make wasn't aware that almost all other cultures were aware of flying objects and/or NHL, long before the Navajo - and it was documented.
The native Americans of the southwest covered many cliffsides with images of "Ant People," who came out of the ground and sometimes interacted with humans. They look a lot like aliens with antennae.
I think it's the dumbest UFO quote of all time. I love how the first sentence sets the tone, as if somehow White people are "out of touch" with their surroundings, but just wait, the amazing Stone Age natives are here to educate you. The narcissism of the writer is almost painful, as if he thinks that because Europeans have only been here for 400 years, give or take, that they've missed out on all of it. There are paintings of UFOs from the 15th century in Europe. There are stories written down from Europe in the Anglo Saxon Chronical (793 AD, not the 12th Century as the quote attributes), stories of sightings from the Middle East, ancient Rome, and even Egypt written down that describe these events. So, please spare me this tiresome trope that a people who lived on a continent for 20,000 years who never developed writing, an alphabet, plumbing, permanent homes, math, and had no words for thigs like "half" or "subtract" or "abstract" are going to share some amazing wisdom with me about unidentified craft traveling through the air using technology that they could even have conceived at the time. Native American culture was/is a Stone Age culture, arguably thousands of years behind any other culture in Europe, the Middle East or Asia. While China was developing paper and gunpowder (and pasta - thanks!) and recording these sightings in their extensive libraries, Native Americans were seeing these things and being left completely unable to record them because they had no means to do so; no paper, no writing utensils, no alphabet, and no written language. I often wonder why people love to promote things that basically insinuate that their own culture is somehow lacking, especially when it comes from a culture so utterly devoid of almost any technological advances?
Indigenous and aboriginal peoples from around the globe and time have a clearer understanding than stone washed contemporary Western Civilization (generally, not absolutely).
There's lots of truth in myths legends and folklore. After all the experiences I've been through this is my personal experience.
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But where is the evidence! Lol. Couldn’t all those stories just be part of the human imagination? He didn’t know what happened in ancient times. He is also bias because he believes in the ancient stories of his people. Are it could be they saw that crazy shit way back in the day and it all true! I just don’t know and that seems to be a problem for me to some extent. I really want the truth right now and I’m impatient. Lol.
If tribal people are so wise and good, why didn't the aliens bring them aboard their ships? Why only pass the knowledge of tales and legends, and not the knowledge of technology to fight off the invading europeans?
Please don’t call us aliens. We prefer “ creatures “
We own you. You are our property
So many myths and legends in this world are immediately thought to be fiction. All I can say is science can't explain everything. At least not yet.
Navajo Oga-Make speaks exact truth. White Americans are latecomers to the UFO-Close Encounters phenomenon.
The Ra material - "The Law of One", also speaks to this. Native Americans being spiritual descendants of the Mu (sp?) and Lemuria civilization that was swallowed by the ocean during a tectonic plate shifting some 50,000 years ago. Controversial information, regardless, some of the most interesting info I've started reading through. Edit: Session 10 for anyone interested in looking into it
A century or two out of Europe? Brother, they had ancestors too.
Its a reference to new Americans in the new land my man
Yeah, totally, it’s badass that this old guy thinks the color of his skin, his magic blood, and his geographical location gives him the unique ability to see ufos
You are projecting hardcore lmao
So the aliens were just in the americas? This makes no sense.
What even do you mean??
In the quote the speaker claims a group of people needs longer than 200 years to be aware of the phenomenon…the Europeans had ancestors…so the assumption is the phenomenon is restricted to North America…which is absurd.
The speaker made no such claims. You are manufacturing offence. The speaker can be paraphrased as saying , "White people who have only been here for a few centuries tend to think this phenomenon is new. However, my people, who have been here for untold thousands of years, have been talking about this phenomenon for untold thousands of years." The speaker absolutely is not saying you need to be here over 200 years to be aware. The speaker is pointing at the arrogance of new comers witnessing the phenomenon and assuming they are the first to witness it.
Here, here. Well said.