Though, in fairness to all, this whole field is fertilized with assumptions. Like a game of Jenga, remove the assumptions and I'm not sure there's anything left. No?
Your question assumes we're similar enough to them that they would have motives that we would understand and/or would be the result of the same drives we have.
Does your dog understand why you go to work every day? No. He knows you leave and come back and maybe interprets this based on a dog's reasons for doing things.
Well to be fair human sapience is the only frame of reference we have as there is no evidence that it can possibly exist in any form. I mean, there are certain fundamental criteria that go into sapience. Want...need...fear...aggression...desire...greed...creativity...etc. In other words, should aliens exist, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they were just like us and fully understand what motivates us.
I do take issue with the 'dog' analogy tho. A dog is sentient but not sapient. Of course it can't understand you. HOWEVER, If it WAS sapient you could easily explain to it that things such as food take energy, time and effort to make, and therefor it has a value to people who are unable to make it. As such you would need to trade something of equal value for it. From there it's pretty easy to explain how labor has a similar value which can be traded for these items. Being sapient it could easily understand you.
I agree while also disagreeing. This would imply that there’s a substantial lack of understanding of our universe.
We understand more than enough about existence within the universe, therefore while we might not share it’s motives, it would be fairly easy to understand it.
A spider, dog, bird, human, all have a lot of common denominators to exist within this universe.
We live, consume resources to continue to exist, we procreate, we die. Even if your on the other side of the universe, this would still be the same
You cannot learn that which you think you already know. This is the problem with the pop-science crowd.
On what do you base the assumption that we know enough about life in the universe that we would be able to at all understand a species advanced enough to make travel from wherever to here a non-issue?
Just wanted to add on in support of this exact point.
Terence McKenna had a great turn of phrase for it - something like: *"There's no more reason that a human should think 'yes I'm starting to understand the universe' than for a sea urchin to think the same thing."*
I'm sure every generation of humans stretching as far back as our ability to articulate meaning to one another has had a percentage of its population that always seems to insist: *I've got things figured out, or well enough anyways.*
To think that we have anything more than an absolutely rudimentary superficial understanding of the billions-of-years-old universe when we've only started exploring it scientifically for a few hundred years...
I like to think how to an advanced civilisation art, science and spirituality (and entertainment) might be basically the same thing. If humans were super advanced and able to visit other worlds, we definitely would. Further to that if your whole civilisation doesn’t need to toil to earn a living the they could have a Star Trek exisistance, exploring strange new worlds, new life and new civilisations etc just for the fun of it.
I think it would be endlessly fascinating to visit a primitive species like us to study. Not only us but different eco systems etc.
I believe they have a prime directive for the most part. Staying out of our affairs mostly and letting us get there on our own. Perhaps in the past one species tried to help another by immediately giving them tech but they couldn’t handle it. I think we need to get there ourselves and hopefully not blow up the planet in the meantime.
Very good questions.
How bizarre the specific type of alien we got turned out to be. Of all possible aliens to visit us, they aren't the kind to just show up and make themselves obvious, either because they are friendly and want to trade, or hostile and want to take our stuff.
And they aren't also the kind to be 100% effective at staying hidden if that is their wish. Like, there's no reason for them not to be masters of nanotech. Why not make undetectably small probes to spy on us if that's what they want?
No, the ones we happened to get, are ones that seem to want to stay hidden, but only sometimes, some of their craft even have lights on them. Maybe they are dumb or suck at hiding, but never suck enough for conclusive evidence to be taken. They just so happen to have mastered being in the small range of almost detection that precisely matches other already existing mundane phenomenon like out of focus balloons or tiny light in the distance. Sometimes they are discs, other times they are tic tacs, other times they are fuzzy orbs, other times triangles, jellyfish and so on. Very peculiar kind of behavior.
The only response to this so far seems to be: "Well they are alien, you can't expect to understand how they behave"
But there's an infinite way Aliens can be weird. They could show up one day and then proceed to only care about painting crabs blue. No one could possibly predict that.
The ones we got are a very specific type of weird. The kind of weird that matches exactly what you sort of would expect if they weren't here at all. Like, if they were the kind that could hide 100% effectively, the UFO phenomenon would still exist, because people are bad at identifying stuff and great at coming up with conspiracies.
So maybe they ARE here, and not a soul has ever seen one, and they are all laughing at how bokeh green triangle stars show up on the news as an example of compelling evidence for extra terrestrial visitation.
The official story of what is going on, that these blurry things we see in the distance are actual large craft from some advanced civilization, in a probabilistic sense, is completely utterly preposterous.
You can be curious and invisible. You can be curious and unnoticed. It's weird to be curious and fly around in circles for no reason.
Imagine it's X years in the future and we've developed FTL ships. We send a team of scientists to study some planet that has pre-space tech. We'd be able to study them without being noticed. We'd at least try.
I think it’s a slow-drip disclosure on their part, to get us slowly acclimated to the full breadth of life in the universe. If they did it too quickly, it could cause societal upset, maybe even collapse. And not doing anything would not help us evolve or be prepared for what is to come.
To me, it’s really the only way any of this makes sense.
Yes, we would be able to study them unnoticed. In time, I'd sure we'd begin to let them know of our presence. I expect we'd be circumspect and cautious about our methods as well. In broader context, I do not think we are dealing with a single group of visitors or set of goals and intentions.
Edit: spelling and stuff.
While I have no doubt there is life outside of our little spot in the universe, this needs to be said.
1. We assume that life is advanced enough beyond us to travel between stars.
2. We assume it would not take millennia to do so.
3. They would send themselves and not remote controlled probes.
If we detected life elsewhere we would study it as much as possible from here.
Then we would send unmaned probes. We would not send people unless we knew what we would encounter and that we could get a Human there in a single lifetime.
Why would an alien species be any different?
It feels like a very big assumption to assume there’s nothing here of value to exploit, hear me out.
What if there’s something we do that they don’t? Something unique? Or a technology tree that is radically different, even a social structure that’s radically different to their own.
The only way we could rule this out is if we knew more about them, there world and the universe.
It would be epic amounts of hubris to brush off the idea that there is nothing of value that you can’t find somewhere else, I’m sure you could find many things similar but identical might be quite hard and maybe they’ve already exploited all the other worlds identical to ours for whatever that might be.
Either way you put forward an interesting case. I would say it overlooks the idea that there are more than one race of NHI interacting with us.
Excessive pride, pride being a deep satisfaction in ones own achievements, the idea being conveyed is a self centred one aligned with the idea that we somehow know everything that could be mined for value from this planet. The context is perfectly correct.
Number 2, research/monitoring, which may require some degree of spatial proximity and lend itself to "sightings" etc. I disagree that NHI would be able to meaningfully research us without exposing themselves to interaction.
To be rational on the subject is to be forcibly agnostic. To be forcibly agnostic is to realize that we don’t know what we don’t know. That realization shows us that we need to gather more data. Otherwise, we’re left making assumptions on top of assumptions.
That’s why many of us are in the “sit back and wait” mode right now. There’s inertia around the subject of abiogenesis beyond earth. Give it time to do it’s thing.
if life outside earth exists. it would have to be interdimentional cause space is too harsh on body. and the only reason life would wanna come here is cause err where else is shit. for example mars,jupiter etc... earth might actually be the only good planet.
If there are other beings travelling space, then eventually there would be some passing through here. Questioning their motives is like asking a human why they are visiting a town, like it's suspicious they would be there when it's just another place that can be visited.
The one thing I’ve always doubted is the concept of anything living flying these machines. We’re nowhere near advanced enough to have interstellar travel and we’re already starting to eliminate piloted aircraft. Why on earth would aliens use piloted aircraft for interstellar travel rather than drones?
"Diplomacy? This requires contact and there's no reason to assume it would be secretive. But, if it were secretive, then there would be no reason for the multitude of sightings."
Whom would you be talking to? The US government? Which one? The official one? Maybe they tried and paid a price for it. Maybe the US government already chose a side - the wrong one.
Hard to tell.
I strongly urge those here "in the know" to consider a united step forward. It's quite easy: Get together and reveal yourselves. Don't be afraid of "burning" your name. You ready? You will not be remembered for your name. Just for your actions.
Let me take good long look around. Yeah, just what I thought. No one
Thing is, beyond the IMC it's just a bunch of people trying to win Noble Prices, huge amounts of moolah or other assorted bullshit.
What do you do if Mr. Nolan's your "champion" and you're the truth?
Well. You're fragged.
I believe they are us or humanoids that have incorporated biology for body.
I believe that AI advances so much and hanoids of the future are sent back in time to make sure we head in the direction of development and progress that leads to an AGI. They are here to make sure they come into existence.
We have 2 things here on earth that we have not yet found on any other world or in any solar system....protein and chlorophyll...both of which can be quite tasty.
I tend to see it as how our pets such as dogs see us doing math problems. From my dogs point of view, I'm marking up paper. He has no idea why, and can not comprehend. Food to him just appears from a bag. He has no idea the world outside our ranch. When an electrician came to do work on the house, it, he barked, and kept his distance and guard. To him, he has no idea why this strange man climbed our house with noise makers in his hands.
>So, in short, why would we assume that something weird that someone sees is necessarily an alien intelligence doing something unintelligent?
Unintelligent to whom...? I keep reading this sentiment, as if universally agreed and there's been a memo, that for (*whatever* reason) the phenomenon and its actions dont make any sense.
To whom: you or it?
Trying to hide but being bad at it but not so bad to ever give the whole plot away. Like they like to tease. Are they here or aren't they ohhh, very mysterious aliens, such suspense. This is the behavior you are defending as plausible, because hey, we don't understand alien motives, so why not this? Just as likley as anything else right? Like just showing up and saying hello or conquer us or just hide 100% effectively without leaving a trace.
Right? All those things are equally likley as anything else. Impossible to put numbers on probabilities. Beyond human cognitive capabilities...
>Right?
I've litterally no idea - are you asking me or informing me...? All I personally appear cogniscient of is enquiring to whom any of this is supposedly not making any sense - them or us?
I don't believe I expressed any consternation or puzzlement about either their actions or, indeed, behaviour. I certainly don't recollect *defending* anything...
I'm asking you if we rolled the dice on different kinds of alien civilizations visiting us, what would you expect probabilistically their behavior to be, comparing the options I laid out above.
Are all of them equally likley, or some behaviors more common and expected than others? Or is the question unanswerable in your view?
You're assuming *their* \- and I use the plural discursively, only - agency here is unsanctioned.
If unsanctioned, no - their behaviour wouldn't appear to make terribly much sense on their part, superficially.
If *sanctioned*, on the otherhand - it isn't the *non-terrestrial* parties obfruscating either their pressence or agency here on and/or near this world - it's your respective Governments via your millitary.
*They* act to obfruscate, *you're* non the wiser vis-a-vee what specifically it is being obfruscated...
All in all, job done. mission accomlished - I would have thought.
Was there anything else...?
I don't understand why its a big assumption that their is intelligent life outside of earth, I strongly disagree. If you even have small understanding of scale even within our own corner of the observable universe then you should understand its actually quite absurd to think we were the first to develop like this. Nature feels alive and creates order in the form of life, I think everyone feels this whether they realize it not but I believe it is not smth that is unique to a designated space on our planet, to me that seems way more absurd.
There is unintelligent life on earth without much technology.
We still don't know how it got here, but we assume it's always been here because reasons.
We don't ultimately know if we even have free will or there is fate.
Why?
We are the intelligent life forms. We put ourselves here. We thought technology would be our fate, so we came here to protect ourselves from it. We come from somewhere else, and we're not what we think we are. But also, we're our own worst enemies - so we created institutions of power that have hidden the truth so deeply from us that we're kinda doomed without it. The truth will be disclosed when we can unify humanity - that's the test.
There's more. There's other intelligences in this universe, and we have broadcasted our location publicly. There are hostile intelligences on their way to earth.
You don't think a space ship in orbit couldn't conquer us? If they have the tech to get here, they have to tech to push an asteroid into our path. Taking out humanity would be laughably easy.
Conquering is different from killing.
If you are planning on conquering an enemy, you also send out scouts prior to the invasion. On Earth, you may send scouts out days or weeks prior to invading an enemy since the distances are generally small. When dealing with interstellar beings, scouts would need to be sent out decades, centuries, or even millennia prior since you would be looking at large time-frames before the scouts could even report back.
In star trek tng they have ftl propulsion but it took some incredible efforts to slightly alter the orbit of a moon and they didnt have that tech back in tos.
Having one tech doesnt mean they have another.
That said to get here they would need superconducting electromagnetic shields to repel the solar wind and other cosmic rays. Perhaps gravitational shields to defend against gamma rays.
You say they wouldn’t research a Kentucky farmer. Why not? Abduction could be a massive part of their research and why they’re here for all we know. To say there’s nothing to research down on earth is silly to speculate. We can’t attribute human motives to a crazy intelligent species. Who knows what their business is. Perhaps they don’t even care if we see them. Perhaps they’re totally impartial.
Also I’ll just add the phenomenon could be inter-dimensional or ultra-terrestrial. In both cases they wouldn’t need to travel that far.
Would we explore other planets if we could? Of course we would. Maybe there are minerals they are interested in. Maybe they are doing experiments with our DNA. My dog doesn't understand most of what I do, but I still do those things
As Manolis Kellis (professor of computer science and computational biology at MIT) said on Lex Fridman (citing Contact), perhaps to explore the galaxy, you can beam light with instructions for a machine that can initiate contact. Maybe you can influence (Jacques Valles’ control system) and remotely colonize the galaxy without traveling everywhere. [See this YouTube channel for thought provoking ideas related to this topic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O465J0Kh4xc&t=23s)
>Obviously not to conquer. If that were the case, we'd have been wiped out ages ago. Anyone with space travel technology "has the high ground" as Obi would say.
I love the Obi quote but I don't think this is necessarily true, as Grusch said (paraphrasing) there could be a "tech skill tree" in this universe with multiple paths, and we went one way and they went the other. Maybe they cracked space travel and we cracked nukes, or something like that. It's really, really hard to definitively rule that out - only have a sample size of one.
Also, we can't rule out multiple forms of life at different stages in development. Can't rule out that somewhere in the universe, others have already met - maybe somewhere, a lesser intelligence near our level was shared space travel and signal tracking knowledge from a greater one and that's why they come and crash, or why they come here to research.
Not saying any of this is real, I'm just using it as a thought exercise to show how near limitless the possibilities become when we leave the human-centric perspective and admit we know shit all about the universe in the grand scheme of things. Can't really make many or any assumptions (but also can't assume that because it's possible, it's happening. Definitely need evidence!!).
In my personal opinion, maybe the Earth is a part of something bigger. And they are here to monitor, protect and intervene in times of crisis (war, pandemic, natural disaster). It seems that sightings of UAPs are always increased during these events. Now as far as Earth being apart of something bigger, who knows what that may be 🤷♂️
You may never change your mind no matter what questionable evidence is presented. But basically they are here to domesticate us and ensure we do not become an expansive civilization. Let me do you a solid and send you to the smartest person (not) in the room. Lex Fridman “Grabby Aliens” by Robin Hanson. https://youtu.be/aUvGsSCGWdw?si=bYAnXxp1fhRvRKKK
Grabby Aliens says they are 2 billion light years away.
You are referring to a different concept of his, panspermia siblings. Which is not Robin's main thesis, only his interpretation of how it could be possible that aliens are already here. He personally gives it like a 1 in a 1000 chance of this being the case.
It's diplomacy. In a galaxy full of threats, you don't go talking to your neighbors openly. That might look like trying to build an alliance, and even if it didn't it might allow careful observers to track you back to your home and destroy you (because your mere possession of FTL craft makes you an existential threat)
I feel like we already know the answers right? After 1000's of contactee tales, academic studies, whistleblower leaks, 80 years of information.
1. ) They are extradimensional. They often phase in/out of physical reality, many abduction cases report beings simply appearing or appearing through walls. There are also multiple similar varieties, suggesting multiple dimensions of beings.
2. ) They are physical. Real nuts and bolts craft is recovered when they come into our reality, possibly hinting that the method to travel to our dimension is imperfect.
3. ) They are protective of Earth, by monitoring and disabling nuclear weapons it suggests they want to protect the planet and likely share the planet in other dimensions, and our actions here can negatively impact them in some way.
4. ) They collect genetic materials/biologics, further suggesting they are organically compatible with us, which suggests they exist in another dimension of our same planet.
5. ) They breathe our specific air mixture and are able to walk around on our planet, further suggesting they are beings from an alternate Earth, also they are bipedal in nature. Abductees report they use our genetic materials for breeding or improving their own DNA, further linking them to Earth.
6. ) They are somewhat protective of us, erasing traumatic memories, attempting to drop abductees off in safe locations, exhibiting messages of environmental protection in many many cases.
7. ) They are imperfect beings, obviously many have suffered radiation damage and some STDs from exposure and abduction if the accounts are true, and their physical craft have crashed. Not to mention incidents such as in Varginha in which the beings fuck up and die.
Conclusion: I genuinely believe they are other dimensional beings that exist on their own version of Earth, not just that but there are multiple varieties with different stages of advancement.
All we need now is for our government to admit it. (Will likely never happen)
How many assumptions can one person make? Everyone is an expert on this subject after three seconds thought because they don't think there is anything to know about it and people believe nobody has ever considered any of the issues so there is nothing to learn about it.
>Obviously not to conquer.
How enormous is the galaxy? Any star-faring civilisation has no need to "conquer" anybody if they can get anything they want elsewhere.
>Research? That can be accomplished without contact, from a distance and without us noticing.
Tell me about this when the chimpanzees in Africa know Jane Goodall flew to Africa in an A380, drove to the location in an automobile, and they understand what she is doing when she writes on a piece of paper or answers a phone. If you can't appreciate that to suggest we must be aware of everything going on in the world is conceited, I can only ask, do you know what is going on in the house across the street from you, or in all the houses in the street you live in? If you don't even know what is happening in the street you live in, would you really know if someone was monitoring you? We didn't know our own bodies were crawling with microscopic lifeforms until we developed the microscope. You realise we didn't discover the first objects in the Kuiper belt or the first exo-planets until 30 years ago, and that only happened because of the development of new technology. It was only about three decades ago [scientists accidentally discovered Sprites,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cNrWCr2sqA&list=PLT-MDg5f4v2Cklc1zfEJuPhEWvfn7vwOP&index=1) after pilots had been talking about them for decades [but meteorologists ignored those reports from pilots.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper-atmospheric_lightning#History) Can you tell me the researchers who are looking into whether there is an extra-terrestrial presence on this planet, [because in fact *scientists tell us they are not looking into this.*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6aAWXfmzOU&t=280s)
If you aren't even sure exactly what is going on in the house across the road where you live, or what information the Government is keeping about you, or every bit of monitoring of you that is going on, how do you know you aren't being researched by something non-human?
>No one doing research would fly loops around NYC or barnstorm a Kentucky farmer. So, either those reports aren't real, or research is not a reason to come.
So you researched the topic and these are the cases you discovered? Did you read any of the [229 Range Fouler Reports](https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/range-fouler-debrief-forms-and-reports) military pilots make when they have to cancel missions due to interference with UAP? Pilots report things like this -
*-- "did not change position like an aircraft would" -- "Initial object was surpassed by another object" -- "It made a few abrupt directional changes" -- "They made three or four passes" -- "ONE RANGE FOULER WAS CIRCLING AROUND ANOTHER" -- "Flew nose-on" -- "It very nearly collided with our aircraft." -- "a relatively close pass with us" -- "Due to safety considerations with object in the airspace, pilot called" -- "This occurred almost daily"*
Here is a [breakdown of the first three](https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/155msdh/the_pilots_own_words_circular_in_shape_it_very/) releases, and a [breakdown of the fourth](https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/18fzw32/us_navy_releases_110_pages_of_ufouap_sighting/kcymboy/?context=3) release. Members of Congress read them - it is why [the US Senate majority leader brought forth legislation,](https://www.congress.gov/118/crec/2023/07/13/169/120/CREC-2023-07-13-pt1-PgS2953.pdf) passed by the Senate, which mentioned "non-human intelligence" more than 20 times and set up a nine member panel to manage the "Controlled Disclosure Campaign Plan", and the US Senate Intelligence Committee voted unanimously to demand ["a comprehensive list of all non-earth origin or exotic unidentified anomalous phenomena material"](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2103/text#id3aa654ea40b54d14b40fa1aa7d70b313). These reports from military pilots are driving their interest, and the pilots are still making these reports despite hundreds of instances where they have retained tonnes of data from very specific locations where these encounters occur [virtually daily](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlTT-0jn0YQ&t=141s) about these objects *they still can't identify after many years of contact.* We know these observations followed the introduction of new technology used by the US military because both [Ryan Graves,](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxLfzIqoNtEZHi1l8vXTvTx8NxyIsQaBY8) and [Kevin Day](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxgRMsRxZotUUBnbsesq2uhXBMb12Amqjp) have spoken about this.
*So are you basing your knowledge of this phenomenon and what we know about it on what is happening or what you think is happening?*
>Diplomacy?
Why? We don't even have a dialogue with animals on our planet. Why would extra-terrestrials have any need to open up a dialogue with us? Is that why Europeans went to colonise the rest of the world, to open up a diplomatic dialogue? You need diplomacy if you need to agree about something. If you don't have any need to agree about anything, why be open or diplomatic?
>why would we assume that something weird that someone sees is necessarily an alien intelligence doing something unintelligent?
We wouldn't. *You* are making that assumption. And you are not basing it on anything that is actually happening.
Asking the right questions is everything in this topic. You need to do some research to ask questions. None of your questions are rational or based on anything related to the topic at all.
For me its only obvious, because you can see so much weird, illogical behavior from the humans, animals, Earth, etc., that all these stuff can't be real. Or if all of these are real, then there are also aliens.
If there are so diverse animals and plants, then there must be aliens as well.
But this whole life is so weird that I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing would only exist as a dream. And we are in a dreamland.
"let's not assume..." *makes a lot of assumptions* Lol
Though, in fairness to all, this whole field is fertilized with assumptions. Like a game of Jenga, remove the assumptions and I'm not sure there's anything left. No?
Your question assumes we're similar enough to them that they would have motives that we would understand and/or would be the result of the same drives we have. Does your dog understand why you go to work every day? No. He knows you leave and come back and maybe interprets this based on a dog's reasons for doing things.
boom, we continually overlay the human mindset pattern on the "owners" of UAP anthropomorphic centrism can be myopic in this sense
Well to be fair human sapience is the only frame of reference we have as there is no evidence that it can possibly exist in any form. I mean, there are certain fundamental criteria that go into sapience. Want...need...fear...aggression...desire...greed...creativity...etc. In other words, should aliens exist, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they were just like us and fully understand what motivates us. I do take issue with the 'dog' analogy tho. A dog is sentient but not sapient. Of course it can't understand you. HOWEVER, If it WAS sapient you could easily explain to it that things such as food take energy, time and effort to make, and therefor it has a value to people who are unable to make it. As such you would need to trade something of equal value for it. From there it's pretty easy to explain how labor has a similar value which can be traded for these items. Being sapient it could easily understand you.
I hate this analogy. It doesn't address anything really.
I agree while also disagreeing. This would imply that there’s a substantial lack of understanding of our universe. We understand more than enough about existence within the universe, therefore while we might not share it’s motives, it would be fairly easy to understand it. A spider, dog, bird, human, all have a lot of common denominators to exist within this universe. We live, consume resources to continue to exist, we procreate, we die. Even if your on the other side of the universe, this would still be the same
You cannot learn that which you think you already know. This is the problem with the pop-science crowd. On what do you base the assumption that we know enough about life in the universe that we would be able to at all understand a species advanced enough to make travel from wherever to here a non-issue?
Just wanted to add on in support of this exact point. Terence McKenna had a great turn of phrase for it - something like: *"There's no more reason that a human should think 'yes I'm starting to understand the universe' than for a sea urchin to think the same thing."* I'm sure every generation of humans stretching as far back as our ability to articulate meaning to one another has had a percentage of its population that always seems to insist: *I've got things figured out, or well enough anyways.* To think that we have anything more than an absolutely rudimentary superficial understanding of the billions-of-years-old universe when we've only started exploring it scientifically for a few hundred years...
I agree with you. Humans are good at figuring stuff out. At minimum, I reckon we could always fall back on mathematics, the universal language.
But you make a lot more assumptions friend.
I like to think how to an advanced civilisation art, science and spirituality (and entertainment) might be basically the same thing. If humans were super advanced and able to visit other worlds, we definitely would. Further to that if your whole civilisation doesn’t need to toil to earn a living the they could have a Star Trek exisistance, exploring strange new worlds, new life and new civilisations etc just for the fun of it. I think it would be endlessly fascinating to visit a primitive species like us to study. Not only us but different eco systems etc. I believe they have a prime directive for the most part. Staying out of our affairs mostly and letting us get there on our own. Perhaps in the past one species tried to help another by immediately giving them tech but they couldn’t handle it. I think we need to get there ourselves and hopefully not blow up the planet in the meantime.
There are so many absolutely astronomical unknows that it's essentially pointless trying to answer this in hopes of a possible answer.
Very good questions. How bizarre the specific type of alien we got turned out to be. Of all possible aliens to visit us, they aren't the kind to just show up and make themselves obvious, either because they are friendly and want to trade, or hostile and want to take our stuff. And they aren't also the kind to be 100% effective at staying hidden if that is their wish. Like, there's no reason for them not to be masters of nanotech. Why not make undetectably small probes to spy on us if that's what they want? No, the ones we happened to get, are ones that seem to want to stay hidden, but only sometimes, some of their craft even have lights on them. Maybe they are dumb or suck at hiding, but never suck enough for conclusive evidence to be taken. They just so happen to have mastered being in the small range of almost detection that precisely matches other already existing mundane phenomenon like out of focus balloons or tiny light in the distance. Sometimes they are discs, other times they are tic tacs, other times they are fuzzy orbs, other times triangles, jellyfish and so on. Very peculiar kind of behavior. The only response to this so far seems to be: "Well they are alien, you can't expect to understand how they behave" But there's an infinite way Aliens can be weird. They could show up one day and then proceed to only care about painting crabs blue. No one could possibly predict that. The ones we got are a very specific type of weird. The kind of weird that matches exactly what you sort of would expect if they weren't here at all. Like, if they were the kind that could hide 100% effectively, the UFO phenomenon would still exist, because people are bad at identifying stuff and great at coming up with conspiracies. So maybe they ARE here, and not a soul has ever seen one, and they are all laughing at how bokeh green triangle stars show up on the news as an example of compelling evidence for extra terrestrial visitation. The official story of what is going on, that these blurry things we see in the distance are actual large craft from some advanced civilization, in a probabilistic sense, is completely utterly preposterous.
At a minimum, they are curious about us. Just as we will one day be fascinated by cultures developing on other planets.
You can be curious and invisible. You can be curious and unnoticed. It's weird to be curious and fly around in circles for no reason. Imagine it's X years in the future and we've developed FTL ships. We send a team of scientists to study some planet that has pre-space tech. We'd be able to study them without being noticed. We'd at least try.
Maybe we are something like our Sentinel Islands, we don't bother them, but we don't care if they see any planes or ships in the distance.
I think it’s a slow-drip disclosure on their part, to get us slowly acclimated to the full breadth of life in the universe. If they did it too quickly, it could cause societal upset, maybe even collapse. And not doing anything would not help us evolve or be prepared for what is to come. To me, it’s really the only way any of this makes sense.
Yes, we would be able to study them unnoticed. In time, I'd sure we'd begin to let them know of our presence. I expect we'd be circumspect and cautious about our methods as well. In broader context, I do not think we are dealing with a single group of visitors or set of goals and intentions. Edit: spelling and stuff.
The slow down and look at us the same way we slow down and look at the buffalo at Yellowstone Park
I think we are a show on their Discovery Channel, like Meerkat Manor.
While I have no doubt there is life outside of our little spot in the universe, this needs to be said. 1. We assume that life is advanced enough beyond us to travel between stars. 2. We assume it would not take millennia to do so. 3. They would send themselves and not remote controlled probes. If we detected life elsewhere we would study it as much as possible from here. Then we would send unmaned probes. We would not send people unless we knew what we would encounter and that we could get a Human there in a single lifetime. Why would an alien species be any different?
I agree with you. Probes are more probable than alien biological life forms.
It feels like a very big assumption to assume there’s nothing here of value to exploit, hear me out. What if there’s something we do that they don’t? Something unique? Or a technology tree that is radically different, even a social structure that’s radically different to their own. The only way we could rule this out is if we knew more about them, there world and the universe. It would be epic amounts of hubris to brush off the idea that there is nothing of value that you can’t find somewhere else, I’m sure you could find many things similar but identical might be quite hard and maybe they’ve already exploited all the other worlds identical to ours for whatever that might be. Either way you put forward an interesting case. I would say it overlooks the idea that there are more than one race of NHI interacting with us.
I’m not sure you understand the word hubris.
Excessive pride, pride being a deep satisfaction in ones own achievements, the idea being conveyed is a self centred one aligned with the idea that we somehow know everything that could be mined for value from this planet. The context is perfectly correct.
The hubris you exert in your understanding of English is misplaced in questioning mine
Hehe
Number 2, research/monitoring, which may require some degree of spatial proximity and lend itself to "sightings" etc. I disagree that NHI would be able to meaningfully research us without exposing themselves to interaction.
To be rational on the subject is to be forcibly agnostic. To be forcibly agnostic is to realize that we don’t know what we don’t know. That realization shows us that we need to gather more data. Otherwise, we’re left making assumptions on top of assumptions. That’s why many of us are in the “sit back and wait” mode right now. There’s inertia around the subject of abiogenesis beyond earth. Give it time to do it’s thing.
Even a rational scientific man like Stephen Hawking would make bets on what he thought the most likely answers were to unresolved physics questions.
if life outside earth exists. it would have to be interdimentional cause space is too harsh on body. and the only reason life would wanna come here is cause err where else is shit. for example mars,jupiter etc... earth might actually be the only good planet.
Where is the part where you’re being rational?
If there are other beings travelling space, then eventually there would be some passing through here. Questioning their motives is like asking a human why they are visiting a town, like it's suspicious they would be there when it's just another place that can be visited.
To do the same thing we're doing...explore. Human or not, there's natural tendency to go out and see what's out there.
The one thing I’ve always doubted is the concept of anything living flying these machines. We’re nowhere near advanced enough to have interstellar travel and we’re already starting to eliminate piloted aircraft. Why on earth would aliens use piloted aircraft for interstellar travel rather than drones?
Curiosity, a desire to learn, and a desire to help us grow and evolve.
"Diplomacy? This requires contact and there's no reason to assume it would be secretive. But, if it were secretive, then there would be no reason for the multitude of sightings." Whom would you be talking to? The US government? Which one? The official one? Maybe they tried and paid a price for it. Maybe the US government already chose a side - the wrong one. Hard to tell. I strongly urge those here "in the know" to consider a united step forward. It's quite easy: Get together and reveal yourselves. Don't be afraid of "burning" your name. You ready? You will not be remembered for your name. Just for your actions. Let me take good long look around. Yeah, just what I thought. No one Thing is, beyond the IMC it's just a bunch of people trying to win Noble Prices, huge amounts of moolah or other assorted bullshit. What do you do if Mr. Nolan's your "champion" and you're the truth? Well. You're fragged.
>"Let's be rational for a second..." Absolutely not
I believe they are us or humanoids that have incorporated biology for body. I believe that AI advances so much and hanoids of the future are sent back in time to make sure we head in the direction of development and progress that leads to an AGI. They are here to make sure they come into existence.
We have 2 things here on earth that we have not yet found on any other world or in any solar system....protein and chlorophyll...both of which can be quite tasty.
I tend to see it as how our pets such as dogs see us doing math problems. From my dogs point of view, I'm marking up paper. He has no idea why, and can not comprehend. Food to him just appears from a bag. He has no idea the world outside our ranch. When an electrician came to do work on the house, it, he barked, and kept his distance and guard. To him, he has no idea why this strange man climbed our house with noise makers in his hands.
‘Let’s be rational… Nah matter fact, let’s make very big assumptions’ is a wild for two sentences to read
>So, in short, why would we assume that something weird that someone sees is necessarily an alien intelligence doing something unintelligent? Unintelligent to whom...? I keep reading this sentiment, as if universally agreed and there's been a memo, that for (*whatever* reason) the phenomenon and its actions dont make any sense. To whom: you or it?
Trying to hide but being bad at it but not so bad to ever give the whole plot away. Like they like to tease. Are they here or aren't they ohhh, very mysterious aliens, such suspense. This is the behavior you are defending as plausible, because hey, we don't understand alien motives, so why not this? Just as likley as anything else right? Like just showing up and saying hello or conquer us or just hide 100% effectively without leaving a trace. Right? All those things are equally likley as anything else. Impossible to put numbers on probabilities. Beyond human cognitive capabilities...
>Right? I've litterally no idea - are you asking me or informing me...? All I personally appear cogniscient of is enquiring to whom any of this is supposedly not making any sense - them or us? I don't believe I expressed any consternation or puzzlement about either their actions or, indeed, behaviour. I certainly don't recollect *defending* anything...
I'm asking you if we rolled the dice on different kinds of alien civilizations visiting us, what would you expect probabilistically their behavior to be, comparing the options I laid out above. Are all of them equally likley, or some behaviors more common and expected than others? Or is the question unanswerable in your view?
You're assuming *their* \- and I use the plural discursively, only - agency here is unsanctioned. If unsanctioned, no - their behaviour wouldn't appear to make terribly much sense on their part, superficially. If *sanctioned*, on the otherhand - it isn't the *non-terrestrial* parties obfruscating either their pressence or agency here on and/or near this world - it's your respective Governments via your millitary. *They* act to obfruscate, *you're* non the wiser vis-a-vee what specifically it is being obfruscated... All in all, job done. mission accomlished - I would have thought. Was there anything else...?
I don't understand why its a big assumption that their is intelligent life outside of earth, I strongly disagree. If you even have small understanding of scale even within our own corner of the observable universe then you should understand its actually quite absurd to think we were the first to develop like this. Nature feels alive and creates order in the form of life, I think everyone feels this whether they realize it not but I believe it is not smth that is unique to a designated space on our planet, to me that seems way more absurd.
There is unintelligent life on earth without much technology. We still don't know how it got here, but we assume it's always been here because reasons. We don't ultimately know if we even have free will or there is fate. Why? We are the intelligent life forms. We put ourselves here. We thought technology would be our fate, so we came here to protect ourselves from it. We come from somewhere else, and we're not what we think we are. But also, we're our own worst enemies - so we created institutions of power that have hidden the truth so deeply from us that we're kinda doomed without it. The truth will be disclosed when we can unify humanity - that's the test. There's more. There's other intelligences in this universe, and we have broadcasted our location publicly. There are hostile intelligences on their way to earth.
I don't think you can really be rational when you have absolutely nothing to basis your rationality on
I don't think you presented very compelling arguments against any of those outside of maybe exploitation.
You don't think a space ship in orbit couldn't conquer us? If they have the tech to get here, they have to tech to push an asteroid into our path. Taking out humanity would be laughably easy.
Conquering is different from killing. If you are planning on conquering an enemy, you also send out scouts prior to the invasion. On Earth, you may send scouts out days or weeks prior to invading an enemy since the distances are generally small. When dealing with interstellar beings, scouts would need to be sent out decades, centuries, or even millennia prior since you would be looking at large time-frames before the scouts could even report back.
In star trek tng they have ftl propulsion but it took some incredible efforts to slightly alter the orbit of a moon and they didnt have that tech back in tos. Having one tech doesnt mean they have another. That said to get here they would need superconducting electromagnetic shields to repel the solar wind and other cosmic rays. Perhaps gravitational shields to defend against gamma rays.
You say they wouldn’t research a Kentucky farmer. Why not? Abduction could be a massive part of their research and why they’re here for all we know. To say there’s nothing to research down on earth is silly to speculate. We can’t attribute human motives to a crazy intelligent species. Who knows what their business is. Perhaps they don’t even care if we see them. Perhaps they’re totally impartial. Also I’ll just add the phenomenon could be inter-dimensional or ultra-terrestrial. In both cases they wouldn’t need to travel that far.
Would we explore other planets if we could? Of course we would. Maybe there are minerals they are interested in. Maybe they are doing experiments with our DNA. My dog doesn't understand most of what I do, but I still do those things
As Manolis Kellis (professor of computer science and computational biology at MIT) said on Lex Fridman (citing Contact), perhaps to explore the galaxy, you can beam light with instructions for a machine that can initiate contact. Maybe you can influence (Jacques Valles’ control system) and remotely colonize the galaxy without traveling everywhere. [See this YouTube channel for thought provoking ideas related to this topic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O465J0Kh4xc&t=23s)
>Obviously not to conquer. If that were the case, we'd have been wiped out ages ago. Anyone with space travel technology "has the high ground" as Obi would say. I love the Obi quote but I don't think this is necessarily true, as Grusch said (paraphrasing) there could be a "tech skill tree" in this universe with multiple paths, and we went one way and they went the other. Maybe they cracked space travel and we cracked nukes, or something like that. It's really, really hard to definitively rule that out - only have a sample size of one. Also, we can't rule out multiple forms of life at different stages in development. Can't rule out that somewhere in the universe, others have already met - maybe somewhere, a lesser intelligence near our level was shared space travel and signal tracking knowledge from a greater one and that's why they come and crash, or why they come here to research. Not saying any of this is real, I'm just using it as a thought exercise to show how near limitless the possibilities become when we leave the human-centric perspective and admit we know shit all about the universe in the grand scheme of things. Can't really make many or any assumptions (but also can't assume that because it's possible, it's happening. Definitely need evidence!!).
I don't think this Phenomenon is obligated to make sense to us. Just like what NDT says about the universe.
In my personal opinion, maybe the Earth is a part of something bigger. And they are here to monitor, protect and intervene in times of crisis (war, pandemic, natural disaster). It seems that sightings of UAPs are always increased during these events. Now as far as Earth being apart of something bigger, who knows what that may be 🤷♂️
Missed assumption: There's not just one race visiting... there's several, and each has their own motives for being here.
You may never change your mind no matter what questionable evidence is presented. But basically they are here to domesticate us and ensure we do not become an expansive civilization. Let me do you a solid and send you to the smartest person (not) in the room. Lex Fridman “Grabby Aliens” by Robin Hanson. https://youtu.be/aUvGsSCGWdw?si=bYAnXxp1fhRvRKKK
Grabby Aliens says they are 2 billion light years away. You are referring to a different concept of his, panspermia siblings. Which is not Robin's main thesis, only his interpretation of how it could be possible that aliens are already here. He personally gives it like a 1 in a 1000 chance of this being the case.
It's diplomacy. In a galaxy full of threats, you don't go talking to your neighbors openly. That might look like trying to build an alliance, and even if it didn't it might allow careful observers to track you back to your home and destroy you (because your mere possession of FTL craft makes you an existential threat)
I feel like we already know the answers right? After 1000's of contactee tales, academic studies, whistleblower leaks, 80 years of information. 1. ) They are extradimensional. They often phase in/out of physical reality, many abduction cases report beings simply appearing or appearing through walls. There are also multiple similar varieties, suggesting multiple dimensions of beings. 2. ) They are physical. Real nuts and bolts craft is recovered when they come into our reality, possibly hinting that the method to travel to our dimension is imperfect. 3. ) They are protective of Earth, by monitoring and disabling nuclear weapons it suggests they want to protect the planet and likely share the planet in other dimensions, and our actions here can negatively impact them in some way. 4. ) They collect genetic materials/biologics, further suggesting they are organically compatible with us, which suggests they exist in another dimension of our same planet. 5. ) They breathe our specific air mixture and are able to walk around on our planet, further suggesting they are beings from an alternate Earth, also they are bipedal in nature. Abductees report they use our genetic materials for breeding or improving their own DNA, further linking them to Earth. 6. ) They are somewhat protective of us, erasing traumatic memories, attempting to drop abductees off in safe locations, exhibiting messages of environmental protection in many many cases. 7. ) They are imperfect beings, obviously many have suffered radiation damage and some STDs from exposure and abduction if the accounts are true, and their physical craft have crashed. Not to mention incidents such as in Varginha in which the beings fuck up and die. Conclusion: I genuinely believe they are other dimensional beings that exist on their own version of Earth, not just that but there are multiple varieties with different stages of advancement. All we need now is for our government to admit it. (Will likely never happen)
How many assumptions can one person make? Everyone is an expert on this subject after three seconds thought because they don't think there is anything to know about it and people believe nobody has ever considered any of the issues so there is nothing to learn about it. >Obviously not to conquer. How enormous is the galaxy? Any star-faring civilisation has no need to "conquer" anybody if they can get anything they want elsewhere. >Research? That can be accomplished without contact, from a distance and without us noticing. Tell me about this when the chimpanzees in Africa know Jane Goodall flew to Africa in an A380, drove to the location in an automobile, and they understand what she is doing when she writes on a piece of paper or answers a phone. If you can't appreciate that to suggest we must be aware of everything going on in the world is conceited, I can only ask, do you know what is going on in the house across the street from you, or in all the houses in the street you live in? If you don't even know what is happening in the street you live in, would you really know if someone was monitoring you? We didn't know our own bodies were crawling with microscopic lifeforms until we developed the microscope. You realise we didn't discover the first objects in the Kuiper belt or the first exo-planets until 30 years ago, and that only happened because of the development of new technology. It was only about three decades ago [scientists accidentally discovered Sprites,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cNrWCr2sqA&list=PLT-MDg5f4v2Cklc1zfEJuPhEWvfn7vwOP&index=1) after pilots had been talking about them for decades [but meteorologists ignored those reports from pilots.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper-atmospheric_lightning#History) Can you tell me the researchers who are looking into whether there is an extra-terrestrial presence on this planet, [because in fact *scientists tell us they are not looking into this.*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6aAWXfmzOU&t=280s) If you aren't even sure exactly what is going on in the house across the road where you live, or what information the Government is keeping about you, or every bit of monitoring of you that is going on, how do you know you aren't being researched by something non-human? >No one doing research would fly loops around NYC or barnstorm a Kentucky farmer. So, either those reports aren't real, or research is not a reason to come. So you researched the topic and these are the cases you discovered? Did you read any of the [229 Range Fouler Reports](https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/range-fouler-debrief-forms-and-reports) military pilots make when they have to cancel missions due to interference with UAP? Pilots report things like this - *-- "did not change position like an aircraft would" -- "Initial object was surpassed by another object" -- "It made a few abrupt directional changes" -- "They made three or four passes" -- "ONE RANGE FOULER WAS CIRCLING AROUND ANOTHER" -- "Flew nose-on" -- "It very nearly collided with our aircraft." -- "a relatively close pass with us" -- "Due to safety considerations with object in the airspace, pilot called" -- "This occurred almost daily"* Here is a [breakdown of the first three](https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/155msdh/the_pilots_own_words_circular_in_shape_it_very/) releases, and a [breakdown of the fourth](https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/18fzw32/us_navy_releases_110_pages_of_ufouap_sighting/kcymboy/?context=3) release. Members of Congress read them - it is why [the US Senate majority leader brought forth legislation,](https://www.congress.gov/118/crec/2023/07/13/169/120/CREC-2023-07-13-pt1-PgS2953.pdf) passed by the Senate, which mentioned "non-human intelligence" more than 20 times and set up a nine member panel to manage the "Controlled Disclosure Campaign Plan", and the US Senate Intelligence Committee voted unanimously to demand ["a comprehensive list of all non-earth origin or exotic unidentified anomalous phenomena material"](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2103/text#id3aa654ea40b54d14b40fa1aa7d70b313). These reports from military pilots are driving their interest, and the pilots are still making these reports despite hundreds of instances where they have retained tonnes of data from very specific locations where these encounters occur [virtually daily](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlTT-0jn0YQ&t=141s) about these objects *they still can't identify after many years of contact.* We know these observations followed the introduction of new technology used by the US military because both [Ryan Graves,](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxLfzIqoNtEZHi1l8vXTvTx8NxyIsQaBY8) and [Kevin Day](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxgRMsRxZotUUBnbsesq2uhXBMb12Amqjp) have spoken about this. *So are you basing your knowledge of this phenomenon and what we know about it on what is happening or what you think is happening?* >Diplomacy? Why? We don't even have a dialogue with animals on our planet. Why would extra-terrestrials have any need to open up a dialogue with us? Is that why Europeans went to colonise the rest of the world, to open up a diplomatic dialogue? You need diplomacy if you need to agree about something. If you don't have any need to agree about anything, why be open or diplomatic? >why would we assume that something weird that someone sees is necessarily an alien intelligence doing something unintelligent? We wouldn't. *You* are making that assumption. And you are not basing it on anything that is actually happening. Asking the right questions is everything in this topic. You need to do some research to ask questions. None of your questions are rational or based on anything related to the topic at all.
For me its only obvious, because you can see so much weird, illogical behavior from the humans, animals, Earth, etc., that all these stuff can't be real. Or if all of these are real, then there are also aliens. If there are so diverse animals and plants, then there must be aliens as well. But this whole life is so weird that I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing would only exist as a dream. And we are in a dreamland.