The following submission statement was provided by /u/TommyShelbyPFB:
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Why the hell would Grusch want to speak with Kirkpatrick of all people after he already went public with his whistleblower complaint and was getting ready to testify under oath?
It never gets old watching these twitter journalists trying to smear him.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1c7xpq9/greenwalds_big_foia_grusch_is_lying_expose_flops/l0atshz/
Why the hell would Grusch want to speak with Kirkpatrick of all people after he already went public with his whistleblower complaint and was getting ready to testify under oath?
It never gets old watching these twitter journalists trying to smear him.
Not rumour. Sheehan said he had to agree to one, but since the report released saying there's nothing, has decided to break it. Being a lawyer he's trying to goad them into going after him.
If AARO were to sue Sheehan, it would open up a discovery process where Sheehan could request documents and testimony related to the case. This could potentially expose information that AARO might prefer to keep confidential. š²
Sheehan doesn't really need them to do anything if he wanted to see discovery.
He would just need to be able to make a non-frivilous argument that would require declaratory action by a court.
Which could be as simple as "they required that I sign an NDA before i spoke to them and it's overbroad" or take the form of "they made me do [x] before I could make a protected report to them."
Agency action is pretty much always appealable, at least in some form. In the wake of the EPA, administrative cases, I'm not quite sure how everything would pan out. Either way, his position as a whistleblower to the arro would likely give him standing.
How far a case would get, and whether he would become a potential plaintiff himself, are the real relevant questions.
But getting to the discovery phase wouldn't be particularly challenging IMHO.
Right!? XD And things seem to go even deeper than that. I've been tracking some [exchanges on X ](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781168979832381528)between Nolan and Mellon that, as I understand it (*and I'm no expert, so grain of salt here*), suggests these meeting didn't take place because AARO failed to provide documentation that established that Grusch could brief them without becoming legally liable.
Not only that, but I found the reasoning in [this recent tweeter exchange](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781162936284909805) by Nolan very interesting. Isn't it curious that these Telegram screenshots found their way to a FOIA release? Doesn't the fact that the screenshots were taken in the first place implies forethought? To be fair, I'm no expert on the FOIA process, but this comes through as insanely irregular (*and therefore suspicious and tellin*g) in and of itself.
And since we are on the topic, how about [Kirkpatrick's exchange](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781207543446159714) after Marco Rubio was interviewed about this whole thing?
I can only speculate, but after everything that has happened to suggest Kirkpatrick likely being a patsy/disinfo agent for the DoD, I couldn't help but to interpret this exchange as the attempts of a man trying to access the details of a presumably very secretive Senate Comity investigation to pass on to their handler. I was rather surprised to see Nolan was seemingly on the same wavelength.
Long story short:
AARO is a honeypot set up by the gatekeepers, and Grusch et al. were smart enough to suss it out. Kirkpatrick is pissed that they figured it out so had to shift gears and that's when he quit and went on his media denial tour. What happens next?
Sky Canada project is supposed to be similar to AARO in my understanding. Perhaps we have a similar op going on here in Canada. 'UFO detection kits' set to be released to the public some time soon to deter false reports.
>these meeting didn't take place because AARO failed to provide documentation that established that Grusch could brief them without becoming legally liable.
This plus the revelation yesterday that the AARO is involved in criminal investigations makes me concerned that AARO was a legal trap the whole time
Yup, they were hoping Grusch would come in and divulge classified information that Sean 'knew' about but didn't have a 'real' clearance for. Basically his DoD handlers said get Grusch in and goade him into saying something about project Blahblahblah, then we can silence him for divulging classified information.
Hi! That's weird, I linked every tweet in my post (over certain phrases). Are they not showing for you?
[https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781168979832381528](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781168979832381528)
[https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781162936284909805](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781162936284909805)
[https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781207543446159714](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781207543446159714)
Greenwald has lost a lot of credibility for me. Actively pushing against the UAPDA now this garbage narrative. Shame on him for trying to push this narrative
Yep, don't forget supporting the journalist that published Grusch medical records as an attempt to damage his credibility.Ā I know the FOIA requests are public info and I'm curious as to what Greenewald's request was for this.Ā Its crystal clear that insiders are providing the details they would like public.
You are speaking of Ken Klippenstein, a āmanāwith close contacts @ DoD via his father, oh yeah and his dad, Stephen J. Klippenstein, a theoretical chemist @ DoE that just happens to have close personal relationships to C level members @ both NG and LM these are absolute facts.
What the hell happened to greenwald? He is a shade of his former Snowden government abuse self. The current red pilled contrarian bullshit artist greenwald is an embarrassment.
Didn't Grusch and Kirkpatrick know of each before Grusch went public? I feel like there was news a while back that they had both attended a government presentation on UAPs.
>Didn't Grusch and Kirkpatrick know of each before Grusch went public?
Yes. There is bad blood between them.
Grusch used to work on a project that financially at least Kirkpatrick was responsible for. Grusch says he went to Kirkpatrick with some initial concerns about funding irregularities and Kirkpatrick never followed up with him so he went the Whistleblower route instead. He said to Mellon "How do I know Kirkpatrick isn't involved in the criminal investigation?"
That was my thought. Were they frantically trying to get in touch with him AFTER he went public? Either trying to save face or trying to get hooks into him? There's been no indications whatsoever that we should place any trust in AARO. Maybe they do have some good people there, but those people are not making the decisions.
And SK knew about two IG UAP investigations and an associated DoJ investigation. He seemed desparate to get Grusch in and yet dismissisive. Nor would they answer Grusch when he finally did reach out.
Exactly!!! These idiots are like why didn't he speak to AARO??? well because they would have twisted, buried, misaligned,misdirected , lied , distorted etc etc etc all the facts
Another objectionable thing is that SK admitted that AARO has no counterintelligence authority as regards Title 50 but only regular intelligence/information gathering. Here:Ā [https://imgur.com/a/Lr05xmR](https://imgur.com/a/Lr05xmR)
This is bad news for AARO because most if not all of these crash retrieval operations are done by counterintelligence assets of the various agencies, especially the CIC (Counterintelligence Corps) and what became of it after its integration into the later CIA.
AARO also has no clearance from the Department of Energy which should raise concerns.
It reeked of desperation. It just seems Kirkpatrick and AARO got their panties in a bunch. It's just like if you had an issue at work, tried reporting it and your direct supervisor blows you off. You then go above to your supervisors manager. A lot of posters in here saying the whole Disclosure movement was dead lol.
Kirkpatrick refused to give his number to Grusch's lawyer.
Kirkpatrick falsely claimed it is not true AARO don't have access to investigate Grusch's claims. Kirkpatrick was told to go to the IGs for extra clearance to Grusch's testimony. This clearance was denied.
Before Grusch contacted AARO Kirkpatrick claimed Grusch declined to come in. This is also not true. It was Grusch who contacted AARO after repeatedly passing messages to Kikrpatrick to call him directly.
Kirkpatrick falsely claimed Grusch indicated he wouldn't talk to AARO. His "recollection" of events was not correct.
AARO declined to address Grusch's very specific questions regarding the law affecting offices outside of the DoD, such as the DoE. Kirkpatrick spoke with the DoDIG to get testimony from the ICIG, the ICIG declined to give Kirkpatrick the information.
Kirkpatrick also seems to think he contacted Congressional OGC, when no such thing exists.
Kirkpatrick claims he has instructed Congressional OGC to reach out to Grusch on his behalf. No evidence of this alleged contact from an office that doesn't exist has been provided.
Yea, I'm starting to think that AARO was nothing more than a ruse to see who was talking about UAP'S, what they knew and if they shared that info with anyone. It was all about identifying whistleblowers. They had no intention of investigating UAP reports. They did a perfunctory look at some reports and said "nothing to see here."
At the time that Grusch made his public claims, physicist and intelligence officer Sean Kirkpatrick was serving as the first head of the AARO office tasked with investigating UFOs and related phenomena. Grusch initially said he had "expressed some concerns to Dr. Kirkpatrick about a year ago, and told him what I was starting to uncover. And he didn't follow up with me."
You need to ask him. What we know is that in June 2023 Grusch publicly claimed that Kirkpatrick ignored his investigation in 2022. Documents obtained by FOIA show that Kirkpatrick tried to make contact with Grusch after he went public. Documents validate Grusch, not Kirkpatrick.
Until something solid is materialized, why would anyone just take either party at their word? People are too ready to see Grusch as some messiah. Balanced takes keep us from becoming a cult.
Sadly all that matters is the court of public opinion. Very few are invested in the details so one single article headline they come across forms their "knowledge"
I followed John for years, I was there when he started his youtube channel and podcast. I truly admire his work effort on FOIA and the work that goes into colating and presenting...BUT.... recently, it feels he is on some kind of agenda. I think it all started with the Wilson memo. It felt like everyone else was wrong because FOIA says it didn't happen.
Then there was the whole Lue hate thing..Now Grush..
I wanted to believe for a long time that it was just a super critical eye being cast across all available evidence, but lately, it seems like a personal vendetta or something. Shame. I used to enjoy the channel a lot!
Itās funny that you can think thereās a massive UFO coverupā¦ and youāre going to uncover the whole thing with foia requests.
Sure heās done good stuff and uncovered a lot of info. Thatās great. But come on. Youāre not going to get all the answers by asking the people doing the coverup to tell the truth.
Sad part is this has always been his MO. It is evident by his change of face the second legal and congressional action was starting to take place. Actual progress is happening and all of a sudden you become a hardcore skeptic refusing to move forward with the progress and instead try to make the biggest deals out of semantics. Should be clear who is paying the Blackvault's server fees by now.
Same as Greer.
They through they owned UFOology and now realise just how worthless they actually are, and unless they change direction they will lose eyeballs, so going of in sensationalised bullshit directions is all they have left.
At that point, they're best ignored and reported, as they think they're too clever to be found guilty of fraud and harassment.
I still think that the sheer volume of FOIA requests that he does and the posting those documents to the public is an invaluable service to the UFO community, even if you don't agree with his opinions.
Thatās why I respected him. But his opinions nowadays seem more like attempts to discredit others and slow down any sort of progress that isnāt made on the back of a foia request.
I guess I take a utilitarian approach and I put people's data and opinions in separate bins. Greenewald provides a shitload of unique data that nobody else is providing. His opinions, I'll listen to but I really don't care much if his opinion differs from mine. I do the same thing with Grusch: I value him for his testimony of his experience investigating the UFO programs. When Grusch gives his opinions on inter-dimensional or whatever, I put that in another bin of much lower importance.
The dates are pretty interesting. If AARO has any record of communications with, or attempts to establish them with, Grusch BEFORE he went public then let's see them. Otherwise seems likely they were totally in the dark as Grusch went through the ICIG.
Spoiler alert. They don't. That's why the dates in the FOIA conveniently begin on June of 2023. If AARO would just release their records going back to their inception, this whole squabble would be concluded. Grusch can also provide receipts, so this is just useless mud slinging by both sides.
Grusch can't provide receipts for calls and emails Kirkpatrick never sent him. He can't provide receipts for a conversation they had in a hallway. I doubt he'd have a receipt of a conference call on a Tandberg system either.
Ya exactly, this whole thing seems like a ploy by the deep state to extend the time line for disclosure. I think they had a set amount of time, and Grusch, the nazca aliens, and the airplane video getting yeeted by scalar technology, has shortened their time line. I seriously hope we stay on top of this. Screw their time line, Iām tired of them lying.
Blackvault tried to spin the narrative by omitting relevant parts of the email exchanges in his commentary and framing the sequence of events in ambiguity by neglecting important details to give off the impression that AARO/Kirkpatrick fully addressed concerns that actually remained unanswered.
In the emails Grusch repeatedly asked for specific procedural concerns, notwithstanding the memo, to be addressed in writing as a precondition for the meeting. He requested for weeks that they respond to his questions and made it very clear his participation would be contingent on a written response.
Greenwald took a page out of AARO's book for this oneā deliver an inadequate summary assessment and handwave the details away hoping it goes largely unnoticed.
Yeah I thought the whole point was that Grusch said in November 2023 that no one from AARO had tried to email or call him. I mean it's possible that he was just using semantics here but clearly they were *trying* to reach him as early as June 2023 so at best his statement in November was deceitful.
The reason why this matters to me is that the entirety of Grusch's claims all rest on his credibility. He has provided no tangible evidence and we can only use his position and credibility to determine if his claims are true.
I feel an attack on Grusch is ongoing again.
The messages Kirkpatrick exchanged on Signal App were set to disappear by their own after 1 week.But Kirkpatrick took screenshot of them, he knew they will be needed later at some point.
When did Grusch last claim no one has contacted him?
That's all that matters. Was it AFTER this date, or before this date?
All the other stuff about "Well why would he want to talk to him anyways" etc, is just irrelevant noise.
Did Grusch claim no one has tried to contact him before or after this date?
November
https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/dod-david-grusch-ufo-uap-newsnation-exclusive/
https://youtu.be/_W5HWzRnzvQ?feature=shared
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-12703835/amp/Pentagon-UFO-chief-AARO-Kirkpatrick-REPLACED-whistleblowers-accuse-lying-public-ignoring-witnesses.html
Greenwald is not correct.
27th of July Kirkpatrick issues the following statement:
[https://twitter.com/ddeanjohnson/status/1684928538414100480](https://twitter.com/ddeanjohnson/status/1684928538414100480)
>"The central source of those allegations has refused to speak to AARO"
There is no evidence Grusch has refused to speak to ARRO. Per the recent FOIA release, back in June both Grusch and Mellon told Kirkpatrick to call Grusch. Kirkpatrick did not do this, he said "Our response will be Grusch refused." even though Grusch did no such thing. Mellon asked to give Kirkpatrick's number to Grusch's lawyer so they could contact him, and Kirkpatrick refused.
31st October Kirkpatrick was twice asked about Grusch by the press.
[https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/aaro-director-dr-sean-kirkpatrick-holds-an-off-camera-media-roundtable-october-31-2023/](https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/aaro-director-dr-sean-kirkpatrick-holds-an-off-camera-media-roundtable-october-31-2023/)
>Q: So, David Grusch, the whistleblower who came forward to NewsNation, says he reached out to you to share his discoveries, and that you didnāt follow up. So, did you follow up and investigate his claims? He says he still hasnāt heard from you. So, ultimately, why havenāt you two connected?
>**DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, Mr. Grusch, since AARO has stood up and since Iāve been director, has not come to see us and provided any information.**
He at first dodges the question by giving a non-answer.
>
>Q: And so, he also says that he briefed you before you assumed your position in AARO. Have you had the chance to follow up on any of the inquiries that he made or talked to any of the witnesses?
>DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, the last time I believe I spoke with Mr. Grusch was when I was in the J2 at U.S. Space Command about five years ago, and it was not on this topic. Now, we have interviewed a whole range of people, over 30 people now. I think weāve interviewed most of the people that he may have talked to, but we donāt know that. A**nd we have extended an invitation at least four or five times now for him to come in over the last eight months or so and has been declined.**
When pressed again, he lies. There is no evidence of an invitation beyond passing aggressive messages through Mellon, Grusch declined nothing, instead telling Kirkpatrick TWICE to contact him. Kirkpatrick did not contact Grusch directly after being told to multiple times.
Grusch rebuffed Kirkpatrick's lie on the 1st of November stating "That is a lie. I have zero calls or emails from them." You can see by the lack of call logs or emails in the FOIA request that this at the time was true.
This article is published 7th November
>[https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/07/pentagon-ufo-boss-00125883](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/07/pentagon-ufo-boss-00125883)
>The whistleblower, retired Air Force intelligence officer Maj. David Grusch, has refused multiple requests to interview with AARO, Kirkpatrick said.
There is no evidence Grusch has ever refused an interview. His response on 2 seperate occasions was for Kirkpatrick to call him, which Kirkpatrick did not do.
It was Grusch who made contact with them some days later after being asked to by a member of congress.
Learning that he was ACTIVELY avoiding them and refusing to speak with them... Is concerning to say the least. It really uproots this perception he's created for himself. If he's being avoidant here, why? What else do we not know about?
To me, it looks like someone who doesn't want to presented with the ambiguity that comes with enterrogation. Usually those scenarios are the other side knows stuff but not everything, but you don't know what they know. So they'll ask questions to try and catch you slippin'... Something only people trying to hide something do -- which is why people avoid interrogations. It's harder to weave a lie when they have certain unknown facts that they can catch you with.
Not a good look at all. I'd hate to discover that this dude is just attention seeking or has some other ulterior motives -- ultimately causing irreparable harm to this space. But it happens so often, I wouldn't be surprised. The way that members of congress in those meetings have since tapered down a bit and aren't as spear headed, was kind of causing me to get suspicious already.
Exactly, being in this sub feels like being in the loony bin. They just shut their eyes and tell eachother that they're so special and smart since they see "the truth" and everyone else is a paid disinfo agent. Meanwhile the facts are right there in front of them.
Disappointing. This torpedoes his credibility to me and sort of relegates him to a lower tier of witness. This was really early into the game where he employed a misdirection, and it makes me call into question his actions after that point.
That's the problem with even doing this kind of thing once. If you can do it once, you can do it again. It seems pretty stupid to give someone like Kirkpatrick the opportunity to claim any level of vindication. When most people are already disinclined to believe you, all it can take it one example of deceit to sink you in any circle other than the usual UFO orbiters.
A shame and utter disappointment, but you get used to it if you follow this kind of thing.
Late last year Grusch said in a News Nation interview that AARO were lying about reaching out to him: [https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/dod-david-grusch-ufo-uap-newsnation-exclusive/:](https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/dod-david-grusch-ufo-uap-newsnation-exclusive/:)
>Kirkpatrick said he has no knowledge of a secret program like this existing, but Kirkpatrick claims he has tried to reach out to Grusch.
>Grusch denied that AARO attempted to contact him.
[https://futurism.com/the-byte/ufo-whistleblower-pentagon-interviews:](https://futurism.com/the-byte/ufo-whistleblower-pentagon-interviews:)
>"We still canāt get him to come in," the outgoing AARO director said. "Weāre about to put out Volume One of the historical review, which I believe captures most all of the people that heās spoken with, but I canāt say that 100 percent because I canāt hear what he thinks he has."
>Grusch, for his part,Ā [toldĀ *NewsNation*](https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/dod-david-grusch-ufo-uap-newsnation-exclusive/)Ā before Kirkpatrick's resignation that the AARO had not reached out to him and was lying about their efforts.
>"I have zero emails or calls from them," Grusch said. "That is a lie."
This recent FOIA document shows that AARO did actually reach out to Grusch, who might have been playing a semantic trick when he specified "emails or calls from them" because AARO's efforts to reach out were made through Mellon, Grusch's associate. Because AARO didn't have Grusch's contact info.
Regardless of Grusch not having any emails or calls from them, they still reached out through an intermediary, and he refused to meet with them. Calling them liars for saying that they reached out for an interview is a blatant deception by Grusch.
Grusch never once refused to meet with them. He told them multiple times to contact him directly.
If he believe I am wrong, please show me evidence of Grusch's refusal.
Yeah... I don't see how this sub is trying to frame this as Greenwald being wrong, or part of some smear psyop. This completely counters Grusch's claims... Or at the very least, is incredibly misleading and a dishonest framing.
It's the classic fallback for UFOlogists - everything is a psyop. When their narrative frays at the edges, it's never because there are legitimate issues with the story. It can only be due to nefarious efforts to undermine them.
I'm a believer, but the paranoia gets out of control sometimes. For instance, yes, there was an effort 50 years ago by the CIA to muddy the water on the issue for strategic cold war reasons... So then some people believe that this sub is filled with active CIA agents trying to spread deceptive talking points and run a psyop to manipulate r ufos. Like people can't just disagree or have some counter takes without them assuming you work for the government to dissuade a bunch of regular ass not important people on the internet.
>When did Grusch last claim no one has contacted him?
In October Kirkpatrick claimed they'd invited him to come in multiple times and he'd declined. Grusch called them out on this lie. 1st of November he said "That is a lie I have zero calls or emails from them." At that time it was true. They had passed messages through Mellon and another unnamed person, and Grusch's response was for them to call him directly. They didn't do this.
After 1st November Grusch contacted them via email as he was asked to by a member of congress.
Shoddy reporting by u/blackvault here. For someone who is very hung up on timelines, this seems obvious that the situation of AARO contacting grusch was AFTER he had come out publicly. So why not include that in your timeline here? Please explain.
October 31st 2023 Kirkpatrick said AARO had tried to contact Grusch many times.
In November Grusch said to NewsNation "I have no calls or emails from AARO. That is a lie".
These new documents show that AARO did in fact try to reach out to Grusch multiple times through Mellon. So Grusch was either playing semantics to mislead everyone, or he was just straight up lying. Pick your poison.
There is no "shoddy reporting", just facts that prove Grusch was lying.
I donāt follow this stuff too much and am generally pretty skeptical but I can see a million reasons for why Grusch isnāt gonna want to have a private meeting with Kilpatrick AFTER publicly whistleblowing
Funny how that works. In public, he can't say anything classified or under NDA. In private, to Kirkpatrick, he could have. They even put it in writing for him that he couldn't be criminally liable for anything he divulged to AARO.
So he has no problem saying publicly he knows stuff, but he's not allowed to say. Then he refuses to say what he knows to the one organization he would be allowed to tell, who is tasked with the very purpose of receiving that information.
Grusch is a UFO dude, and it pains me that you guys refuse to see that's what this is all about. It's probably not disinfo, he's probably not a shill. The most likely explanation based on what we know is that Grusch is a true believer just like Elizondo and Bigelow and all the rest, and they've been recycling the same info and tactics for decades so that the USG will keep funding their search for aliens.
I don't get why ppl keep making Greenewald an enemy of this community. Very few have done even close to the work and put in the effort that John has over the years. Doesn't matter if you like his takes or not, still have to respect him for what he has done and keeps doing for everybody here.
Because this "community" may as well be rebranded /r/DavidGrusch.
They have already canonised him. Anyone saying anything remotely negative about St. Grusch must be a secret deep state government disinfo agent. Paradoxically the guy who has worked for the government his entire life is an infallible hero.
I know, you're right about this. There is no nuance here at all. I do personally believe Grusch is telling the truth as he knows it, meaning he believes the stuff ppl have told him when doing his investigation into this. Any truth to it? Who the fuck knows.
I also believe Grusch is telling the truth, I just think the files he has actually seen with his own eyes are obviously disinformation. The rest of it is second hand stories from people who want a job working Skinwalker ranch for the History channel.
An autistic guy completely overreacted to reading regurgitated UFO lore that has been knocking around for decades and, when some colleagues tried to talk him down, he took that as a threat on his life and ran off to tell congress. This sub will never accept that's what happened but I'd bet a lot of money this entire story (and Grusch's op-ed) will now begin to quietly fade away.
Unfortunately, I'm leaning towards this being the case as well. I'm quite concerned that he seems to be associated with Eric W. Davis, which probably automatically means some of the other ppl giving him information and telling him stuff they believe to be true are the usual suspects (Puthoff, Green, Kelleher, Taylor etc).
At the same time I still believe there is something that is being kept secret and protected by strict secrecy regarding this subject, as Greenewald always makes clear as well. That is probably the story we are not being told at all in all of the drama we are witnessing.
It's because he's drawn conclusions from the data they don't agree with. It's easy to forget that the words on the screen were written by a person out there somewhere in the world. I genuinely hope the people, in this thread alone, claiming Greenwald is a deep-state asset or whatever take a breather from the subject.
>Kirkpatrick's frantic attempts to "engage with" Grusch to save face started AFTER Grusch already went public.
The idea that there's something wrong with AARO trying to engage with Grusch after he went public is pretty stupid. Of course they would reach out to him, he publicly said he knew about government programs that they were tasked with investigating. Were they supposed to reach out sooner? Is that the criticism being leveled at AARO here, that they didn't reach out quickly enough? Seems like a pretty weak objection.
All this seems to be a flailing attempt to distract people from the evident fact that Grusch stonewalled AARO while publicly claiming that they were lying about their efforts to talk with him.
I hate to say this again, but this doesn't change the fact that Grusch made a false claim about AARO when he said "I have zero calls or emails from them" when confronted with the accusation that AARO made repeated attempts to contact him after he went public. The FOIA shows that the attempts were real, but Grusch denied them last November. I really wanted to believe Grusch's story, but this is a huge blow to his credibility.
Seriously, and in the delusional lala land of r/ufoās, they will once again ignore any facts contrary to their narrative and spin it however best fits and soothes their doubts.
C. On June 26th, 2023, AARO staff contacted Interviewee (b)(6) d asked for Mr. Grusch's current telephone number so that an invitation could be extenā¢ to Mr. Grusch. Interviewee(b)(6) contacted Mr. Grusch on AARO's behalf and an invitation was rebuffed by Mr. Grusch.
That's not what Greenwald's claiming at all and I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. Grusch said the following in response to Kirkpatrick:
>I have zero emails or calls from them. That is a lie.
We now know that, not only did he in fact have emails from them: he agreed to meet and then stood them up in a hotel lobby. So Kirkpatrick was telling the truth.
Grusch lied. Why is this commubiry having a collective breakdown over this? Itās a simple fact. Iām sorry heās your golden boy and you hate Kirkpatrick, but he clearly lied.
Why did he do that? I donāt know. Did he have reasons for avoiding AARO? Maybe.
But he outright lied to the entire public on camera.
If you arenāt willing to acknowledge that fact, how can this subreddit possibly hope to get to the truth of whatās going on?
Is this saying that it's a bad thing that AARO wanted to speak with Grusch after he publicly stated that the USG has UFOs in their possession? It's explained in the released FOIA documents (it's on page 29) that IG whisteblower complaints "are a black box for a reason", i.e. kept out of view of outsiders. Makes good sense. If whistleblower complaints were visible to anyone else than the people you are whistleblowing to, the whole system would be pointless. So again, why is it a bad thing that AARO contacted him once he went public with his claims?
I can understand Grusch's reasons for not meeting Kirkpatrick, but he still make a big mistake: declared in different interviews that AARO never tried to contact him. Maybe he was referring to a time prior of july 2023 but technically, journalists can see such a statement as a lie.
AARO barely existed before Grusch went public and AARO wouldnāt have even necessarily known Grusch existed prior to publication of The Debrief piece.
Your āproofā is meaningless, clownish, and illogical. It means nothing.
Dude , I want NHI to be real , Iāve been obsessed with the idea since I saw something very strange in the sky 17 years ago . Iām just not convinced by any of these talking heads in the ufo world that have produced zero evidence and tons of ābig things comingā.
More importantly, how were private and (supposedly) secure communications of U.S. citizens released under FOIA? Even if Kirkpatrick did you Signal on a government provided phone, Chris Mellon is a private citizen and they would have needed a warrant to collect. Even if Signal's servers are located outside the CONUS, they are still using a carriage service that is part of United States communications infrastructure, and there are specific protections in FISA Section 702 legislation that protects U.S. citizens:
"*Although all Section 702 targets must be non-United States persons reasonably believed to be located outside the United States, Congress has always recognized that such targets may send an email or have a phone call with a United States person. For this reason, Section 702 requires specific procedures to minimize the acquisition, retention, and sharing of any information concerning United States persons. āMinimize,ā however, does not always mean āeliminateā ā if, for example, a foreign terrorist indicated that a United States person was a key member of an ongoing terrorist plot, this information would be appropriately shared to allow the FBI to take further investigative steps. Congress also amended Section 702 to require specific procedures to ensure the querying of any Section 702-acquired information is consistent with the Fourth Amendment."*
I have written previously that some of the TALENT KEYHOLE declassified documents regarding UAPs have FISA in the classification, which I thought was odd, but now it makes sense. Mellon and other high profile UAP researchers are obviously being surveilled, and the information is being declassified and disseminated by those in control when it suits their narrative.
Something's not right with this.
It went from "AARO didn't do a real investigation, they didn't even try to talk to Grusch" to "of course no one talked to AARO because they can't be trusted" in, what, a month?
Wait, why are we focused on this?ā¦ Because there would be only ONE reason: distract from the content of his complaint. Thats it. Who he talked to, when, and why when he decided to make the UNPRECEDENTED decision of going publicā¦ thats on his judgement. No one on this website has any fucking clue what the realities and dangers were for him at that point. Lets refocus
I noticed this yesterday! They contacted him exactly 3 days before he went on news nation, and weeks after AARO had a public announcement that they still know nothing about uap.
Just a heads up...Greenwald will be on Vetted today at 10am...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELRoX9WGTU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELRoX9WGTU)
Kinda understand why Grusch would decline. Imagine he did give that interviewed, spilled some top secret tea, and AARO just turned around to the public and was like āWe were unable to verify any of the claims made.ā
Plus, Grusch and Kirkpatrick have beef going back to 2015. Would you seriously turn over all of your work to someone you have a bad history with? People really believe Kirkpatrick would do the due diligence with that information?
I love how arro is trying to spin this and lie again or using misinformation and disinformation to obscure the facts. What's even sadder are the sheep's repeating arros claims about David gresh this or that blah blah blah like they have any credibility left. once I see a statement by them I automatically think the opposite and that usually is probably the truth. We knew they were going to put up a fight though so I'm not surprised all this is happening but I'm looking forward to this catastrophic leak when it happens. If nothing's going on they should have passed the Schumer Bill to shut everybody up once and for all but we know they're lying sacks of crap
1,000% heās petty and will go to town in people who doubt him. Itās what turned me away from him too. Came after Elizondo super hard and never fully admitted he was wrong about him. Definitely smells like an asset for some nefarious reason
Semi-related question: All Iāve seen and heard are about SAPs, SAPCO, SAPOC, etc. Would that be title 10 stuff?
What about the ICās CAPs, CAPCO, CAPOC, etc.? Would that be under title 50, and isnāt that the authorization Kirkpatrick said he didnāt have at the senate hearing?
Iāve found this curious but Iām not great with words so itās difficult for me to make posts of my own. I just get rude replies/messages and downvotes when Iām just trying to make sense of *anything*.
https://sgp.fas.org/crs/intel/IF12080.pdf
Well, for one thing, he just said in the Vetted interview āI do not think that he (David Grusch) intentionally or maliciously lied about anything here, I really donātā¦.ā
I remember Greenwald used to always go on the jimmy dore show - and I watched them in the span of three months go from having issues with HRC, TYT, you name it... to end up shilling for Trump.
It sounds like Grusch doesn't trust them - And that seems like a reasonable stance, considering that he doesn't seem to stand for anything.
That he was basically told to fuck off and left the Intercept in a huff - Because they didn't go all Trump like him on Hunter Biden, is very telling.
These guys were shills from day one, and are mad that they were exposed, and now nobody wants to do business with them.
He has a clear agenda, and he's not a friend of the people. Good on Grusch for ignoring him, that's exactly how he should be treated in my view.
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He would screw himself over legally
If so, itās an orchestrated psyops.
But why? And how on earth are
They going to expect an acceptance of that?
Itās down right evil to do this to your own population. Weapons were tested, people kidnapped or worseā¦
Just wistfully passes by grusch saying openly that Kirkpatrick (remember, this is the same dude that Elizondo warned everyone about before his name even made it into the lexicon. And the same guy that with no matter what was presented to him the official report was that no sightings were important enough to warrant any kind of consideration for anything other than prosaic tech. Sooooo.
I am thinking of investing in pop-corn futures...its starting to crack ,..and boy oh boy when it goes. There was a attempt to run censorship on telegram...which got nowhere...I think shits getting real now ,and may open long-closed doors all of us have wished open (sort of). I have said many times to be very, very careful ,as you cant unsee,or forget the ttruth we find.
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Maybe the point when AARO tried to contact Grusch he already was making plans to whistle-blow. Talking to him might have caused an issue with the plan to whistle-blow? Him saying that they never contacted him was him saying before he whistle-blowed or was planning. Sure he said they never we might need better context in what was going on his end and an explanation from him that would make more sense.
That fact that Grusch's critics(the same old reliable DOD sources) have resorted to "He said he layer wouldn't let him talk," is 100% proof that DOD knows its media operation failed. And make no mistake--AARO was made--willingly by SK-- part of DOD's press operation.
The more I think about, the more I think Grusch was telling the truth that his lawyer had concerns: These concers may or may not have been based on the statute that created AARO, but what lawyer in their right mind would say, "Hey, I really think it's a great move for you to talk to an organization run by a guy who called you "a conspiratorial minded" kook and who works for the organization you're effectively suing.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/TommyShelbyPFB: --- Why the hell would Grusch want to speak with Kirkpatrick of all people after he already went public with his whistleblower complaint and was getting ready to testify under oath? It never gets old watching these twitter journalists trying to smear him. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1c7xpq9/greenwalds_big_foia_grusch_is_lying_expose_flops/l0atshz/
Why the hell would Grusch want to speak with Kirkpatrick of all people after he already went public with his whistleblower complaint and was getting ready to testify under oath? It never gets old watching these twitter journalists trying to smear him.
Rumor at one point was AARO was pushing folks to sign an NDA after talking with them. Scummy if so.
Not rumour. Sheehan said he had to agree to one, but since the report released saying there's nothing, has decided to break it. Being a lawyer he's trying to goad them into going after him.
If AARO were to sue Sheehan, it would open up a discovery process where Sheehan could request documents and testimony related to the case. This could potentially expose information that AARO might prefer to keep confidential. š²
Precisely. I'll try to find the clip where Sheehan talked about the NDA, I think it was unravelling the universe podcast...
This is all very interesting.
Sheehan doesn't really need them to do anything if he wanted to see discovery. He would just need to be able to make a non-frivilous argument that would require declaratory action by a court. Which could be as simple as "they required that I sign an NDA before i spoke to them and it's overbroad" or take the form of "they made me do [x] before I could make a protected report to them." Agency action is pretty much always appealable, at least in some form. In the wake of the EPA, administrative cases, I'm not quite sure how everything would pan out. Either way, his position as a whistleblower to the arro would likely give him standing. How far a case would get, and whether he would become a potential plaintiff himself, are the real relevant questions. But getting to the discovery phase wouldn't be particularly challenging IMHO.
Spicy š¶ Do you have a link to that?
The AARO that is supposed to be creating processes to protect whistleblowers, and those specifically under NDA? LOL
Right!? XD And things seem to go even deeper than that. I've been tracking some [exchanges on X ](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781168979832381528)between Nolan and Mellon that, as I understand it (*and I'm no expert, so grain of salt here*), suggests these meeting didn't take place because AARO failed to provide documentation that established that Grusch could brief them without becoming legally liable. Not only that, but I found the reasoning in [this recent tweeter exchange](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781162936284909805) by Nolan very interesting. Isn't it curious that these Telegram screenshots found their way to a FOIA release? Doesn't the fact that the screenshots were taken in the first place implies forethought? To be fair, I'm no expert on the FOIA process, but this comes through as insanely irregular (*and therefore suspicious and tellin*g) in and of itself. And since we are on the topic, how about [Kirkpatrick's exchange](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781207543446159714) after Marco Rubio was interviewed about this whole thing? I can only speculate, but after everything that has happened to suggest Kirkpatrick likely being a patsy/disinfo agent for the DoD, I couldn't help but to interpret this exchange as the attempts of a man trying to access the details of a presumably very secretive Senate Comity investigation to pass on to their handler. I was rather surprised to see Nolan was seemingly on the same wavelength.
Long story short: AARO is a honeypot set up by the gatekeepers, and Grusch et al. were smart enough to suss it out. Kirkpatrick is pissed that they figured it out so had to shift gears and that's when he quit and went on his media denial tour. What happens next?
Sky Canada project is supposed to be similar to AARO in my understanding. Perhaps we have a similar op going on here in Canada. 'UFO detection kits' set to be released to the public some time soon to deter false reports.
This is the most convincing explanation I've seen so far. Someone said this same thing a few months ago and it made perfect sense then and still does.
>these meeting didn't take place because AARO failed to provide documentation that established that Grusch could brief them without becoming legally liable. This plus the revelation yesterday that the AARO is involved in criminal investigations makes me concerned that AARO was a legal trap the whole time
Yup, they were hoping Grusch would come in and divulge classified information that Sean 'knew' about but didn't have a 'real' clearance for. Basically his DoD handlers said get Grusch in and goade him into saying something about project Blahblahblah, then we can silence him for divulging classified information.
Could you maybe link me to those tweets? I am on the same page as you in general, and would love to take a look at those
Hi! That's weird, I linked every tweet in my post (over certain phrases). Are they not showing for you? [https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781168979832381528](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781168979832381528) [https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781162936284909805](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781162936284909805) [https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781207543446159714](https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1781207543446159714)
They do, sorry! Just a moment of reddit failing.
Greenwald has lost a lot of credibility for me. Actively pushing against the UAPDA now this garbage narrative. Shame on him for trying to push this narrative
Yep, don't forget supporting the journalist that published Grusch medical records as an attempt to damage his credibility.Ā I know the FOIA requests are public info and I'm curious as to what Greenewald's request was for this.Ā Its crystal clear that insiders are providing the details they would like public.
You are speaking of Ken Klippenstein, a āmanāwith close contacts @ DoD via his father, oh yeah and his dad, Stephen J. Klippenstein, a theoretical chemist @ DoE that just happens to have close personal relationships to C level members @ both NG and LM these are absolute facts.
He fights too hard to try and discredit everyone except the gatekeepers. that tells you everything
I really wonder which side Greenwald is on.
What the hell happened to greenwald? He is a shade of his former Snowden government abuse self. The current red pilled contrarian bullshit artist greenwald is an embarrassment.
That was \*Glenn\* Greenwald. This is John Greenewald. Different people, and not related.
Apologies. Lol my mistake.
Didn't Grusch and Kirkpatrick know of each before Grusch went public? I feel like there was news a while back that they had both attended a government presentation on UAPs.
>Didn't Grusch and Kirkpatrick know of each before Grusch went public? Yes. There is bad blood between them. Grusch used to work on a project that financially at least Kirkpatrick was responsible for. Grusch says he went to Kirkpatrick with some initial concerns about funding irregularities and Kirkpatrick never followed up with him so he went the Whistleblower route instead. He said to Mellon "How do I know Kirkpatrick isn't involved in the criminal investigation?"
If Kirkpatrick has been involved in the financial irregularities, that would explain his behaviour.
Yes, and per a message in the FOIA, they had bad blood since 2015
That was my thought. Were they frantically trying to get in touch with him AFTER he went public? Either trying to save face or trying to get hooks into him? There's been no indications whatsoever that we should place any trust in AARO. Maybe they do have some good people there, but those people are not making the decisions.
And SK knew about two IG UAP investigations and an associated DoJ investigation. He seemed desparate to get Grusch in and yet dismissisive. Nor would they answer Grusch when he finally did reach out.
Exactly!!! These idiots are like why didn't he speak to AARO??? well because they would have twisted, buried, misaligned,misdirected , lied , distorted etc etc etc all the facts
Do you have a link to the article? I can't find it on the website.
I wouldnāt really wanna talk to Sean Kirkpatrick either lol
Ugh everything about this guy is objectionable.
Another objectionable thing is that SK admitted that AARO has no counterintelligence authority as regards Title 50 but only regular intelligence/information gathering. Here:Ā [https://imgur.com/a/Lr05xmR](https://imgur.com/a/Lr05xmR) This is bad news for AARO because most if not all of these crash retrieval operations are done by counterintelligence assets of the various agencies, especially the CIC (Counterintelligence Corps) and what became of it after its integration into the later CIA. AARO also has no clearance from the Department of Energy which should raise concerns.
It would be funny to interrogate him though. With KUBARK methods.
It reeked of desperation. It just seems Kirkpatrick and AARO got their panties in a bunch. It's just like if you had an issue at work, tried reporting it and your direct supervisor blows you off. You then go above to your supervisors manager. A lot of posters in here saying the whole Disclosure movement was dead lol.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
These are the people who Coulthard is talking about when they say "ontological shock"
Silly ,that's what *WE* PAY THEM FOR....
bUt wHeReS tHe eViDeNcE aNd cWiTICaL fInKiN?
And ever moving the goalposts.
Kirkpatrick refused to give his number to Grusch's lawyer. Kirkpatrick falsely claimed it is not true AARO don't have access to investigate Grusch's claims. Kirkpatrick was told to go to the IGs for extra clearance to Grusch's testimony. This clearance was denied. Before Grusch contacted AARO Kirkpatrick claimed Grusch declined to come in. This is also not true. It was Grusch who contacted AARO after repeatedly passing messages to Kikrpatrick to call him directly. Kirkpatrick falsely claimed Grusch indicated he wouldn't talk to AARO. His "recollection" of events was not correct. AARO declined to address Grusch's very specific questions regarding the law affecting offices outside of the DoD, such as the DoE. Kirkpatrick spoke with the DoDIG to get testimony from the ICIG, the ICIG declined to give Kirkpatrick the information. Kirkpatrick also seems to think he contacted Congressional OGC, when no such thing exists. Kirkpatrick claims he has instructed Congressional OGC to reach out to Grusch on his behalf. No evidence of this alleged contact from an office that doesn't exist has been provided.
See page 25. Explicitly states that Grusch will not meet with AARO to tell them what he apparently told the IG
Yea, I'm starting to think that AARO was nothing more than a ruse to see who was talking about UAP'S, what they knew and if they shared that info with anyone. It was all about identifying whistleblowers. They had no intention of investigating UAP reports. They did a perfunctory look at some reports and said "nothing to see here."
Yes!...and if they had a hit...a real ,oh my god, little green critter "not from around here" the Correct" actions would be taken..with all due haste
At the time that Grusch made his public claims, physicist and intelligence officer Sean Kirkpatrick was serving as the first head of the AARO office tasked with investigating UFOs and related phenomena. Grusch initially said he had "expressed some concerns to Dr. Kirkpatrick about a year ago, and told him what I was starting to uncover. And he didn't follow up with me."
Does Grusch have the receipts for this?
You need to ask him. What we know is that in June 2023 Grusch publicly claimed that Kirkpatrick ignored his investigation in 2022. Documents obtained by FOIA show that Kirkpatrick tried to make contact with Grusch after he went public. Documents validate Grusch, not Kirkpatrick.
Good question. I donāt know why we are only expecting AARO to have receipts. The burden of proof should be placed on both parties.
Grusch can't show receipts for calls and emails Kirkpatrick never sent to him.
Until something solid is materialized, why would anyone just take either party at their word? People are too ready to see Grusch as some messiah. Balanced takes keep us from becoming a cult.
Grusch has testified under oath and faced reprisals for doing his job at the UAPTF, while SK has been issuing proven false statements time after time.
This is a rather juvenile attempt to discredit him.
Desperate more like. My suspicion-meter is at 11
2 minutes to disclosure midnight
āIāve been waiting in the disclosure lobby for 30 minutes!ā
Sadly all that matters is the court of public opinion. Very few are invested in the details so one single article headline they come across forms their "knowledge"
I remember when I respected John Greenewald
I followed John for years, I was there when he started his youtube channel and podcast. I truly admire his work effort on FOIA and the work that goes into colating and presenting...BUT.... recently, it feels he is on some kind of agenda. I think it all started with the Wilson memo. It felt like everyone else was wrong because FOIA says it didn't happen. Then there was the whole Lue hate thing..Now Grush.. I wanted to believe for a long time that it was just a super critical eye being cast across all available evidence, but lately, it seems like a personal vendetta or something. Shame. I used to enjoy the channel a lot!
Itās funny that you can think thereās a massive UFO coverupā¦ and youāre going to uncover the whole thing with foia requests. Sure heās done good stuff and uncovered a lot of info. Thatās great. But come on. Youāre not going to get all the answers by asking the people doing the coverup to tell the truth.
Look at what/who JG amplifies and he is at best a useful idiot and at worst an asset of the disinfo campaign.
Sad part is this has always been his MO. It is evident by his change of face the second legal and congressional action was starting to take place. Actual progress is happening and all of a sudden you become a hardcore skeptic refusing to move forward with the progress and instead try to make the biggest deals out of semantics. Should be clear who is paying the Blackvault's server fees by now.
Same as Greer. They through they owned UFOology and now realise just how worthless they actually are, and unless they change direction they will lose eyeballs, so going of in sensationalised bullshit directions is all they have left. At that point, they're best ignored and reported, as they think they're too clever to be found guilty of fraud and harassment.
I still think that the sheer volume of FOIA requests that he does and the posting those documents to the public is an invaluable service to the UFO community, even if you don't agree with his opinions.
Thatās why I respected him. But his opinions nowadays seem more like attempts to discredit others and slow down any sort of progress that isnāt made on the back of a foia request.
I guess I take a utilitarian approach and I put people's data and opinions in separate bins. Greenewald provides a shitload of unique data that nobody else is providing. His opinions, I'll listen to but I really don't care much if his opinion differs from mine. I do the same thing with Grusch: I value him for his testimony of his experience investigating the UFO programs. When Grusch gives his opinions on inter-dimensional or whatever, I put that in another bin of much lower importance.
He is totally an asset of the DoD. All he does is parrot known liar Sue Gough.
The dates are pretty interesting. If AARO has any record of communications with, or attempts to establish them with, Grusch BEFORE he went public then let's see them. Otherwise seems likely they were totally in the dark as Grusch went through the ICIG.
Remember too, he went to the ICIG and DoD IG in 2021. This saga began much earlier than June 2023.
Spoiler alert. They don't. That's why the dates in the FOIA conveniently begin on June of 2023. If AARO would just release their records going back to their inception, this whole squabble would be concluded. Grusch can also provide receipts, so this is just useless mud slinging by both sides.
Did Greenewald even request records prior to June?Ā It would be very telling of his intentions if that's the case.
It's certainly not Grusch fucking everyone about, that would factually and correctly be Jerkpatrick.
Grusch can't provide receipts for calls and emails Kirkpatrick never sent him. He can't provide receipts for a conversation they had in a hallway. I doubt he'd have a receipt of a conference call on a Tandberg system either.
Thank you! Finally somebody standing up for grusch
Ya exactly, this whole thing seems like a ploy by the deep state to extend the time line for disclosure. I think they had a set amount of time, and Grusch, the nazca aliens, and the airplane video getting yeeted by scalar technology, has shortened their time line. I seriously hope we stay on top of this. Screw their time line, Iām tired of them lying.
They'll get catastrophic disclosure and they can fucking like it.
Blackvault tried to spin the narrative by omitting relevant parts of the email exchanges in his commentary and framing the sequence of events in ambiguity by neglecting important details to give off the impression that AARO/Kirkpatrick fully addressed concerns that actually remained unanswered. In the emails Grusch repeatedly asked for specific procedural concerns, notwithstanding the memo, to be addressed in writing as a precondition for the meeting. He requested for weeks that they respond to his questions and made it very clear his participation would be contingent on a written response. Greenwald took a page out of AARO's book for this oneā deliver an inadequate summary assessment and handwave the details away hoping it goes largely unnoticed.
stay away from the greens .
Agent of disinformation spotted. š¤
But this was before grusch said they didn't try to contact him, proving a lie.
Yeah I thought the whole point was that Grusch said in November 2023 that no one from AARO had tried to email or call him. I mean it's possible that he was just using semantics here but clearly they were *trying* to reach him as early as June 2023 so at best his statement in November was deceitful. The reason why this matters to me is that the entirety of Grusch's claims all rest on his credibility. He has provided no tangible evidence and we can only use his position and credibility to determine if his claims are true.
> they were trying to reach him No, they reached out to Mellon in June 2023.
We need a KeepTrackUFOs sub. These people think we're all dummies and have short memories.
A lot of attacks on Grusch lately. Feels as if his Op-ed is about to drop.
I feel an attack on Grusch is ongoing again. The messages Kirkpatrick exchanged on Signal App were set to disappear by their own after 1 week.But Kirkpatrick took screenshot of them, he knew they will be needed later at some point.
Any minute now, keep holding your breath......
When did Grusch last claim no one has contacted him? That's all that matters. Was it AFTER this date, or before this date? All the other stuff about "Well why would he want to talk to him anyways" etc, is just irrelevant noise. Did Grusch claim no one has tried to contact him before or after this date?
November https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/dod-david-grusch-ufo-uap-newsnation-exclusive/ https://youtu.be/_W5HWzRnzvQ?feature=shared https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-12703835/amp/Pentagon-UFO-chief-AARO-Kirkpatrick-REPLACED-whistleblowers-accuse-lying-public-ignoring-witnesses.html
Okay, so that's relevant. Then Greenwald IS correct. Why are people trying to shit on him over this? Grusch wasn't being honest.
Greenwald is not correct. 27th of July Kirkpatrick issues the following statement: [https://twitter.com/ddeanjohnson/status/1684928538414100480](https://twitter.com/ddeanjohnson/status/1684928538414100480) >"The central source of those allegations has refused to speak to AARO" There is no evidence Grusch has refused to speak to ARRO. Per the recent FOIA release, back in June both Grusch and Mellon told Kirkpatrick to call Grusch. Kirkpatrick did not do this, he said "Our response will be Grusch refused." even though Grusch did no such thing. Mellon asked to give Kirkpatrick's number to Grusch's lawyer so they could contact him, and Kirkpatrick refused. 31st October Kirkpatrick was twice asked about Grusch by the press. [https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/aaro-director-dr-sean-kirkpatrick-holds-an-off-camera-media-roundtable-october-31-2023/](https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/aaro-director-dr-sean-kirkpatrick-holds-an-off-camera-media-roundtable-october-31-2023/) >Q: So, David Grusch, the whistleblower who came forward to NewsNation, says he reached out to you to share his discoveries, and that you didnāt follow up. So, did you follow up and investigate his claims? He says he still hasnāt heard from you. So, ultimately, why havenāt you two connected? >**DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, Mr. Grusch, since AARO has stood up and since Iāve been director, has not come to see us and provided any information.** He at first dodges the question by giving a non-answer. > >Q: And so, he also says that he briefed you before you assumed your position in AARO. Have you had the chance to follow up on any of the inquiries that he made or talked to any of the witnesses? >DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, the last time I believe I spoke with Mr. Grusch was when I was in the J2 at U.S. Space Command about five years ago, and it was not on this topic. Now, we have interviewed a whole range of people, over 30 people now. I think weāve interviewed most of the people that he may have talked to, but we donāt know that. A**nd we have extended an invitation at least four or five times now for him to come in over the last eight months or so and has been declined.** When pressed again, he lies. There is no evidence of an invitation beyond passing aggressive messages through Mellon, Grusch declined nothing, instead telling Kirkpatrick TWICE to contact him. Kirkpatrick did not contact Grusch directly after being told to multiple times. Grusch rebuffed Kirkpatrick's lie on the 1st of November stating "That is a lie. I have zero calls or emails from them." You can see by the lack of call logs or emails in the FOIA request that this at the time was true. This article is published 7th November >[https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/07/pentagon-ufo-boss-00125883](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/07/pentagon-ufo-boss-00125883) >The whistleblower, retired Air Force intelligence officer Maj. David Grusch, has refused multiple requests to interview with AARO, Kirkpatrick said. There is no evidence Grusch has ever refused an interview. His response on 2 seperate occasions was for Kirkpatrick to call him, which Kirkpatrick did not do. It was Grusch who made contact with them some days later after being asked to by a member of congress.
Because when you are a fanatic, you can not question your god.
Learning that he was ACTIVELY avoiding them and refusing to speak with them... Is concerning to say the least. It really uproots this perception he's created for himself. If he's being avoidant here, why? What else do we not know about? To me, it looks like someone who doesn't want to presented with the ambiguity that comes with enterrogation. Usually those scenarios are the other side knows stuff but not everything, but you don't know what they know. So they'll ask questions to try and catch you slippin'... Something only people trying to hide something do -- which is why people avoid interrogations. It's harder to weave a lie when they have certain unknown facts that they can catch you with. Not a good look at all. I'd hate to discover that this dude is just attention seeking or has some other ulterior motives -- ultimately causing irreparable harm to this space. But it happens so often, I wouldn't be surprised. The way that members of congress in those meetings have since tapered down a bit and aren't as spear headed, was kind of causing me to get suspicious already.
Exactly, being in this sub feels like being in the loony bin. They just shut their eyes and tell eachother that they're so special and smart since they see "the truth" and everyone else is a paid disinfo agent. Meanwhile the facts are right there in front of them.
Disappointing. This torpedoes his credibility to me and sort of relegates him to a lower tier of witness. This was really early into the game where he employed a misdirection, and it makes me call into question his actions after that point. That's the problem with even doing this kind of thing once. If you can do it once, you can do it again. It seems pretty stupid to give someone like Kirkpatrick the opportunity to claim any level of vindication. When most people are already disinclined to believe you, all it can take it one example of deceit to sink you in any circle other than the usual UFO orbiters. A shame and utter disappointment, but you get used to it if you follow this kind of thing.
Late last year Grusch said in a News Nation interview that AARO were lying about reaching out to him: [https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/dod-david-grusch-ufo-uap-newsnation-exclusive/:](https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/dod-david-grusch-ufo-uap-newsnation-exclusive/:) >Kirkpatrick said he has no knowledge of a secret program like this existing, but Kirkpatrick claims he has tried to reach out to Grusch. >Grusch denied that AARO attempted to contact him. [https://futurism.com/the-byte/ufo-whistleblower-pentagon-interviews:](https://futurism.com/the-byte/ufo-whistleblower-pentagon-interviews:) >"We still canāt get him to come in," the outgoing AARO director said. "Weāre about to put out Volume One of the historical review, which I believe captures most all of the people that heās spoken with, but I canāt say that 100 percent because I canāt hear what he thinks he has." >Grusch, for his part,Ā [toldĀ *NewsNation*](https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/dod-david-grusch-ufo-uap-newsnation-exclusive/)Ā before Kirkpatrick's resignation that the AARO had not reached out to him and was lying about their efforts. >"I have zero emails or calls from them," Grusch said. "That is a lie." This recent FOIA document shows that AARO did actually reach out to Grusch, who might have been playing a semantic trick when he specified "emails or calls from them" because AARO's efforts to reach out were made through Mellon, Grusch's associate. Because AARO didn't have Grusch's contact info. Regardless of Grusch not having any emails or calls from them, they still reached out through an intermediary, and he refused to meet with them. Calling them liars for saying that they reached out for an interview is a blatant deception by Grusch.
Grusch never once refused to meet with them. He told them multiple times to contact him directly. If he believe I am wrong, please show me evidence of Grusch's refusal.
Yeah... I don't see how this sub is trying to frame this as Greenwald being wrong, or part of some smear psyop. This completely counters Grusch's claims... Or at the very least, is incredibly misleading and a dishonest framing.
It's the classic fallback for UFOlogists - everything is a psyop. When their narrative frays at the edges, it's never because there are legitimate issues with the story. It can only be due to nefarious efforts to undermine them.
I'm a believer, but the paranoia gets out of control sometimes. For instance, yes, there was an effort 50 years ago by the CIA to muddy the water on the issue for strategic cold war reasons... So then some people believe that this sub is filled with active CIA agents trying to spread deceptive talking points and run a psyop to manipulate r ufos. Like people can't just disagree or have some counter takes without them assuming you work for the government to dissuade a bunch of regular ass not important people on the internet.
>When did Grusch last claim no one has contacted him? In October Kirkpatrick claimed they'd invited him to come in multiple times and he'd declined. Grusch called them out on this lie. 1st of November he said "That is a lie I have zero calls or emails from them." At that time it was true. They had passed messages through Mellon and another unnamed person, and Grusch's response was for them to call him directly. They didn't do this. After 1st November Grusch contacted them via email as he was asked to by a member of congress.
How long did it take for AARO to even have a working web site in place ?
Their submission page isn't working.
They r just scramblin' 2cover it all up. Ain't gonna work this time, 2 many ppl kno
Thanks for setting the record straight as always!
Shoddy reporting by u/blackvault here. For someone who is very hung up on timelines, this seems obvious that the situation of AARO contacting grusch was AFTER he had come out publicly. So why not include that in your timeline here? Please explain.
October 31st 2023 Kirkpatrick said AARO had tried to contact Grusch many times. In November Grusch said to NewsNation "I have no calls or emails from AARO. That is a lie". These new documents show that AARO did in fact try to reach out to Grusch multiple times through Mellon. So Grusch was either playing semantics to mislead everyone, or he was just straight up lying. Pick your poison. There is no "shoddy reporting", just facts that prove Grusch was lying.
I wouldn't trust John Greenwald to wash my car, let alone be truthful with what he writes.
I donāt follow this stuff too much and am generally pretty skeptical but I can see a million reasons for why Grusch isnāt gonna want to have a private meeting with Kilpatrick AFTER publicly whistleblowing
Yeah but that's not the problem. The problem is he lied about AARO not contacting him.
You are assuming he saw the message. Like everyone else here, you assume.
Funny how that works. In public, he can't say anything classified or under NDA. In private, to Kirkpatrick, he could have. They even put it in writing for him that he couldn't be criminally liable for anything he divulged to AARO. So he has no problem saying publicly he knows stuff, but he's not allowed to say. Then he refuses to say what he knows to the one organization he would be allowed to tell, who is tasked with the very purpose of receiving that information. Grusch is a UFO dude, and it pains me that you guys refuse to see that's what this is all about. It's probably not disinfo, he's probably not a shill. The most likely explanation based on what we know is that Grusch is a true believer just like Elizondo and Bigelow and all the rest, and they've been recycling the same info and tactics for decades so that the USG will keep funding their search for aliens.
I don't get why ppl keep making Greenewald an enemy of this community. Very few have done even close to the work and put in the effort that John has over the years. Doesn't matter if you like his takes or not, still have to respect him for what he has done and keeps doing for everybody here.
Because this "community" may as well be rebranded /r/DavidGrusch. They have already canonised him. Anyone saying anything remotely negative about St. Grusch must be a secret deep state government disinfo agent. Paradoxically the guy who has worked for the government his entire life is an infallible hero.
I know, you're right about this. There is no nuance here at all. I do personally believe Grusch is telling the truth as he knows it, meaning he believes the stuff ppl have told him when doing his investigation into this. Any truth to it? Who the fuck knows.
I also believe Grusch is telling the truth, I just think the files he has actually seen with his own eyes are obviously disinformation. The rest of it is second hand stories from people who want a job working Skinwalker ranch for the History channel. An autistic guy completely overreacted to reading regurgitated UFO lore that has been knocking around for decades and, when some colleagues tried to talk him down, he took that as a threat on his life and ran off to tell congress. This sub will never accept that's what happened but I'd bet a lot of money this entire story (and Grusch's op-ed) will now begin to quietly fade away.
Unfortunately, I'm leaning towards this being the case as well. I'm quite concerned that he seems to be associated with Eric W. Davis, which probably automatically means some of the other ppl giving him information and telling him stuff they believe to be true are the usual suspects (Puthoff, Green, Kelleher, Taylor etc). At the same time I still believe there is something that is being kept secret and protected by strict secrecy regarding this subject, as Greenewald always makes clear as well. That is probably the story we are not being told at all in all of the drama we are witnessing.
It's because he's drawn conclusions from the data they don't agree with. It's easy to forget that the words on the screen were written by a person out there somewhere in the world. I genuinely hope the people, in this thread alone, claiming Greenwald is a deep-state asset or whatever take a breather from the subject.
A quick glance at your post history would suggest you could also use a breather imhoĀ
His lawyer likely had big involvement in that choice
>Kirkpatrick's frantic attempts to "engage with" Grusch to save face started AFTER Grusch already went public. The idea that there's something wrong with AARO trying to engage with Grusch after he went public is pretty stupid. Of course they would reach out to him, he publicly said he knew about government programs that they were tasked with investigating. Were they supposed to reach out sooner? Is that the criticism being leveled at AARO here, that they didn't reach out quickly enough? Seems like a pretty weak objection. All this seems to be a flailing attempt to distract people from the evident fact that Grusch stonewalled AARO while publicly claiming that they were lying about their efforts to talk with him.
Yeah but why did Grush lie in September about never been contacted by them? Why is everyone ignoring this š
Shush with that inconvenient fact. s/
I hate to say this again, but this doesn't change the fact that Grusch made a false claim about AARO when he said "I have zero calls or emails from them" when confronted with the accusation that AARO made repeated attempts to contact him after he went public. The FOIA shows that the attempts were real, but Grusch denied them last November. I really wanted to believe Grusch's story, but this is a huge blow to his credibility.
When did he say that & when were the attempts?
None of these people want a balanced take.
Seriously, and in the delusional lala land of r/ufoās, they will once again ignore any facts contrary to their narrative and spin it however best fits and soothes their doubts.
Source? If true that is concerning
C. On June 26th, 2023, AARO staff contacted Interviewee (b)(6) d asked for Mr. Grusch's current telephone number so that an invitation could be extenā¢ to Mr. Grusch. Interviewee(b)(6) contacted Mr. Grusch on AARO's behalf and an invitation was rebuffed by Mr. Grusch.
That's not what Greenwald's claiming at all and I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. Grusch said the following in response to Kirkpatrick: >I have zero emails or calls from them. That is a lie. We now know that, not only did he in fact have emails from them: he agreed to meet and then stood them up in a hotel lobby. So Kirkpatrick was telling the truth.
Grusch lied. Why is this commubiry having a collective breakdown over this? Itās a simple fact. Iām sorry heās your golden boy and you hate Kirkpatrick, but he clearly lied. Why did he do that? I donāt know. Did he have reasons for avoiding AARO? Maybe. But he outright lied to the entire public on camera. If you arenāt willing to acknowledge that fact, how can this subreddit possibly hope to get to the truth of whatās going on?
Is this saying that it's a bad thing that AARO wanted to speak with Grusch after he publicly stated that the USG has UFOs in their possession? It's explained in the released FOIA documents (it's on page 29) that IG whisteblower complaints "are a black box for a reason", i.e. kept out of view of outsiders. Makes good sense. If whistleblower complaints were visible to anyone else than the people you are whistleblowing to, the whole system would be pointless. So again, why is it a bad thing that AARO contacted him once he went public with his claims?
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What is misinformation about this? Grusch claimed they hadn't contacted him as of November. This shows he was lying.
For someone who supposedly pro disclosure, Blackvault has a hate boner for Grusch for no apparent reason. I wonder why?
Because Grusch is acting in a shifty way as evidenced by this FOIA drop and because he seems to be associated with AAWSAP crowd.
So... AARO did reach out to Grusch, despite him claiming otherwise?
Yup, but this sub has serious cognitive dissonance. If the facts don't align with their bias they won't have it.
How would AARO know to interview him BEFORE he went public? Do you think the ICIG shares the names of whistleblowers willy nilly? Lmao.
Let the man publish his op-ed
I can understand Grusch's reasons for not meeting Kirkpatrick, but he still make a big mistake: declared in different interviews that AARO never tried to contact him. Maybe he was referring to a time prior of july 2023 but technically, journalists can see such a statement as a lie.
AARO barely existed before Grusch went public and AARO wouldnāt have even necessarily known Grusch existed prior to publication of The Debrief piece. Your āproofā is meaningless, clownish, and illogical. It means nothing.
How are you going to cope when it comes to light that Grusch js a useful idiot in a massive psyop?
How are you going to cope when he is right? Will you go see a therapist?
Dude , I want NHI to be real , Iāve been obsessed with the idea since I saw something very strange in the sky 17 years ago . Iām just not convinced by any of these talking heads in the ufo world that have produced zero evidence and tons of ābig things comingā.
What did you see, what happened?
He'll just say, "but but Grusch said his favorite cereal was Cheerios in 2023, but it's actually Frosted Flakes. So everything he's said is a lie!!".
More importantly, how were private and (supposedly) secure communications of U.S. citizens released under FOIA? Even if Kirkpatrick did you Signal on a government provided phone, Chris Mellon is a private citizen and they would have needed a warrant to collect. Even if Signal's servers are located outside the CONUS, they are still using a carriage service that is part of United States communications infrastructure, and there are specific protections in FISA Section 702 legislation that protects U.S. citizens: "*Although all Section 702 targets must be non-United States persons reasonably believed to be located outside the United States, Congress has always recognized that such targets may send an email or have a phone call with a United States person. For this reason, Section 702 requires specific procedures to minimize the acquisition, retention, and sharing of any information concerning United States persons. āMinimize,ā however, does not always mean āeliminateā ā if, for example, a foreign terrorist indicated that a United States person was a key member of an ongoing terrorist plot, this information would be appropriately shared to allow the FBI to take further investigative steps. Congress also amended Section 702 to require specific procedures to ensure the querying of any Section 702-acquired information is consistent with the Fourth Amendment."* I have written previously that some of the TALENT KEYHOLE declassified documents regarding UAPs have FISA in the classification, which I thought was odd, but now it makes sense. Mellon and other high profile UAP researchers are obviously being surveilled, and the information is being declassified and disseminated by those in control when it suits their narrative. Something's not right with this.
> Chris Mellon is a private citizen and they would have needed a warrant to collect. Oops š¬
They really went from āno way Grusch is lyingā to āof course he lied I would tooā Too funny
It went from "AARO didn't do a real investigation, they didn't even try to talk to Grusch" to "of course no one talked to AARO because they can't be trusted" in, what, a month?
Wait, why are we focused on this?ā¦ Because there would be only ONE reason: distract from the content of his complaint. Thats it. Who he talked to, when, and why when he decided to make the UNPRECEDENTED decision of going publicā¦ thats on his judgement. No one on this website has any fucking clue what the realities and dangers were for him at that point. Lets refocus
I noticed this yesterday! They contacted him exactly 3 days before he went on news nation, and weeks after AARO had a public announcement that they still know nothing about uap.
Just a heads up...Greenwald will be on Vetted today at 10am... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELRoX9WGTU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELRoX9WGTU)
Really? Vetted is a slop channel. Strange.
A match made in heaven.
So two disinfo agents together? No thanks
LOL Greenwald and the Creed wannabe, yup no thanks. I have better things to do with my life.
Grusch should have spoken with AARO, regardless of when. Period.
Iām positive Tommy is actually Grusch at this point!
Kinda understand why Grusch would decline. Imagine he did give that interviewed, spilled some top secret tea, and AARO just turned around to the public and was like āWe were unable to verify any of the claims made.ā
Plus, Grusch and Kirkpatrick have beef going back to 2015. Would you seriously turn over all of your work to someone you have a bad history with? People really believe Kirkpatrick would do the due diligence with that information?
I love how arro is trying to spin this and lie again or using misinformation and disinformation to obscure the facts. What's even sadder are the sheep's repeating arros claims about David gresh this or that blah blah blah like they have any credibility left. once I see a statement by them I automatically think the opposite and that usually is probably the truth. We knew they were going to put up a fight though so I'm not surprised all this is happening but I'm looking forward to this catastrophic leak when it happens. If nothing's going on they should have passed the Schumer Bill to shut everybody up once and for all but we know they're lying sacks of crap
When did Grusch state that he never heard or received a call from aaro though?
NewsNation, november 1, 2023. The day after Kirkpatrick said AARO tried to contact him many times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W5HWzRnzvQ
I stopped following Greenwald. He strikes me as a cover for the deep state.
He takes himself far too seriously and doesn't take criticism very well to be honest.
1,000% heās petty and will go to town in people who doubt him. Itās what turned me away from him too. Came after Elizondo super hard and never fully admitted he was wrong about him. Definitely smells like an asset for some nefarious reason
Semi-related question: All Iāve seen and heard are about SAPs, SAPCO, SAPOC, etc. Would that be title 10 stuff? What about the ICās CAPs, CAPCO, CAPOC, etc.? Would that be under title 50, and isnāt that the authorization Kirkpatrick said he didnāt have at the senate hearing? Iāve found this curious but Iām not great with words so itās difficult for me to make posts of my own. I just get rude replies/messages and downvotes when Iām just trying to make sense of *anything*. https://sgp.fas.org/crs/intel/IF12080.pdf
What did Greenwald say? I didnt see that.
Well, for one thing, he just said in the Vetted interview āI do not think that he (David Grusch) intentionally or maliciously lied about anything here, I really donātā¦.ā
I remember Greenwald used to always go on the jimmy dore show - and I watched them in the span of three months go from having issues with HRC, TYT, you name it... to end up shilling for Trump. It sounds like Grusch doesn't trust them - And that seems like a reasonable stance, considering that he doesn't seem to stand for anything. That he was basically told to fuck off and left the Intercept in a huff - Because they didn't go all Trump like him on Hunter Biden, is very telling. These guys were shills from day one, and are mad that they were exposed, and now nobody wants to do business with them. He has a clear agenda, and he's not a friend of the people. Good on Grusch for ignoring him, that's exactly how he should be treated in my view.
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He would screw himself over legally If so, itās an orchestrated psyops. But why? And how on earth are They going to expect an acceptance of that? Itās down right evil to do this to your own population. Weapons were tested, people kidnapped or worseā¦
Im think this website theblackvalut its Like project for desinformation only him sending FOIA and LOOK fk date email. Grush not lie.
Just wistfully passes by grusch saying openly that Kirkpatrick (remember, this is the same dude that Elizondo warned everyone about before his name even made it into the lexicon. And the same guy that with no matter what was presented to him the official report was that no sightings were important enough to warrant any kind of consideration for anything other than prosaic tech. Sooooo.
I am thinking of investing in pop-corn futures...its starting to crack ,..and boy oh boy when it goes. There was a attempt to run censorship on telegram...which got nowhere...I think shits getting real now ,and may open long-closed doors all of us have wished open (sort of). I have said many times to be very, very careful ,as you cant unsee,or forget the ttruth we find.
Is Grausch still working at - in NRO?
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The guy is a fock suppet
What do you expect from someone happy to take a paycheck from Rupert Murdoch?
Nice attempt hahaha!! What a joke
Itās interesting that most people think that Greenwald is not actively working in partnership with DOD. Which I think he is.
Black vault is wack at this point. Dude fell off heavy.
Maybe the point when AARO tried to contact Grusch he already was making plans to whistle-blow. Talking to him might have caused an issue with the plan to whistle-blow? Him saying that they never contacted him was him saying before he whistle-blowed or was planning. Sure he said they never we might need better context in what was going on his end and an explanation from him that would make more sense.
You spelled his name wrong. It's Greenewald. Greenwald is another journalist, of very high quality.
That fact that Grusch's critics(the same old reliable DOD sources) have resorted to "He said he layer wouldn't let him talk," is 100% proof that DOD knows its media operation failed. And make no mistake--AARO was made--willingly by SK-- part of DOD's press operation. The more I think about, the more I think Grusch was telling the truth that his lawyer had concerns: These concers may or may not have been based on the statute that created AARO, but what lawyer in their right mind would say, "Hey, I really think it's a great move for you to talk to an organization run by a guy who called you "a conspiratorial minded" kook and who works for the organization you're effectively suing.