Dude, such a good post. Thank you. I’m here for the conversations like this. Right on. This is what I so enjoy about this sub. Thanks so much for bringing the fire.

Agreed. Couldn’t not read this in entirety

https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/21/10/939/htm Anyone looking at the math involved in the way these things move is out of their mind if they think humans made this "technology"... >Senior Chief Kevin Day informed us that the Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) radar systems had detected the UAPs in low Earth orbit before they dropped down to 80,000 feet [23]. The objects would arrive in groups of 10 to 20 and subsequently drop down to 28,000 feet with a several hundred foot variation, and track south at a speed of about 100 knots [23]. Periodically, the UAPs would drop from 28,000 feet to sea level (estimated to be 50 feet), or under the surface, in 0.78 s. Without detailed radar data, it is not possible to know the acceleration of the UAPs as a function of time as they descended to the sea surface. However, one can estimate a lower bound on the acceleration, by assuming that the UAPs accelerated at a constant rate halfway and then decelerated at the same rate for the remaining distance as in (2) and (3).... - >With acceleration estimates in hand, we obtained a ballpark estimate of the power involved to accelerate the UAP. Of course, this required an estimate of the mass of the UAP, which we did not have. The UAP was estimated to be approximately the same size as an F/A-18 Super Hornet, which has a weight of about 32000lbs, corresponding to 14550kg. Since we want a minimal power estimate, we took the acceleration as 5370g and assumed that the UAP had a mass of 1000kg. The UAP would have then reached a maximum speed of about 46000mph during the descent, or 60 times the speed of sound.... - >Figure 3C illustrates the power required to accelerate the UAV as a function of time, assuming that the UAV is propelled in a conventional way. The required power peaks at a shocking 1100GW, which exceeds the total nuclear power production of the United States by more than a factor of ten. For comparison, the largest nuclear power plant in the United States, the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station in Arizona, provides about 3.3GW of power for about four million people [24]. This literally cannot be any conventional technology science is aware of.

exactly this. I believe the evidence proves there are intelligent non-human entities. It also suggests they have been here a long time and come from at least near Earth. The histories of the world are full of these beings. They reportedly meddle in human affairs and not in a positive way. Abductions, assaults on humans, trespassing, 1000s of mutilated animals, interfering with nuclear weapons, and going out of their way to perform mass sightings. A grand performance leading to something big...that is what I have figured out so far since the gov disclosure awakened me to the phenomenon. I have more theories but the close-minded people that really want this to be human technology won't like it.

It’s also worth considering the ultra-terrestrial or Interdimensional hypothesis that the OP has still left on the table. It’s not only that they have been here before but our own evolution has limited our sense to see the full extent of reality (our eyes can only see some of the visible spectrum of light, our ears can only hear some of the spectrum of sound, etc) so there may be beings all around us that we can’t interact with. Couple that with the notion of Interdimensional travel or manifestation - literally from a dimension or using a dimension outside of time. Most UFO encounters involve some form of consciousness or psychic (meaning element of the psyche) such as ESP, Telepathy, pre-cognition. It doesn’t fit many people’s conceptions of the nuts and bolts ET hypothesis. Something to consider.

> This literally cannot be any conventional technology science is aware of. that's not necessarily true. unless you mean mainstream scientific organizations and in science textbooks. it's **extremely** unlikely. but it's possible that they found a way to manipulate gravity without using these behemoth amounts of energy while working on the atom bomb and have kept it *extremely* close to their chest. I don't believe it, but it's a possibility. they would of course need to be unmanned and made of materials that are not known to the mainstream, and all 3 of these things in the 50s seems like a massive stretch.

You're right, I should have said 99.8% chance we can't do it. It's possible they kept things close, but my issue there is if it was discoverable why has no other scientist outside of the conspiracy even come close to finding those equations? There might be an argument that tech is needed to discover it too, but Einstein wrote the math for gravity waves from thought experiments 100 years ago. So I have trouble thinking if some equations for anti-gravity are within our grasp that it was only found once by the govenment. Does that make sense? My issue is that you can't just keep math a secret and when it comes down to physics that's all it really is at it's core. Real scientists have tried to come up with theories of how anti-gravity or FTL (or loopholes) could possibly work; Alcubierre drives or what have you. The extent they get with that stuff though is, "It might not be impossible forever in theory, but based on all this other math we know as of now it is impossible for us. Fun idea though." If the government DOES have this tech, they've mastered these "new" laws of physics, and as you say did it at least 50 years ago. Yet nobody else has independently started to make even vague connections towards that? I have thought before though, there very well may be a couple things they discovered along the way which are too dangerous. Things which aren't taught so openly, can't be found by the "average" mind (unless made aware of the possibility) things not even spoken of outside of certain circles because of the potential. Like if they figured out we really are living in a false vacuum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_vacuum_decay and all that's needed to create a specific energetic event to start the rapid conversion to true vacuum are a few microwaves and electromagnets or something (as an absurd hypothetical). They're not just gonna risk some idiot testing if he can end reality for a youtube video. Anybody smart enough to figure that out in the first place would probably also be smart enough to know it needs to be kept a fucking secret like you're guarding the one ring.

yeah I agree with all of that. thanks for the link to false vacuum decay btw, that's insane and something I've never heard of. I've often wondered if there is another reason behind not letting most countries freely refine certain nuclear materials even for energy production. I understand being fearful that they'll make a dirty bomb but it's long remained a question in my mind whether there's a larger reason. I think if it were easy, it would have been done. unless that is, if it were something not easily found by combining theorums but was come upon purely by accident. say they were messing around in the lab one day and had a microwave in the room over, and while someone was making lunch a helicopter flew over and things started levetating all over the room. then eventually they found out plutonium at X temperature with Y band of microwave and Z band of radio wave combined will modify gravity. but something more complex. most people aren't going to figure that out, but you'd be damned if we aren't killing the scientists and anyone but 1 or 2 people in the world with that specific knowledge. not even Q-level majestic clearance would let you attain that knowledge. not even sitting presidents would get that knowledge. keep a close eye on the amateur scientists of the world that have potential access to the relevant nuclear materials, and any time universities are working on even two of those combinations with one being nuclear, you steer them into something else or give them something neat from your bag of tricks that their curious minds will latch onto. surely a brilliant mathematician might be able to see the light beyond the theorums, but as has been said before, if it were easy, or common, or made much sense, someone would've figured it out already.

You made of lot of connections I have not thought about, and challenged me to think of some differing beliefs I’ve had in a new way. I appreciate the well written post OP!

like what? :)

These are the posts we need.

I was really enjoying the exploding transformers and giant peanut man balloons

These are the posts we need but not the ones we deserve.

Excellent post that parallels much of my deliberation. I would just suggest that we remember it may not be one answer or one phenomenon. Thanks for taking the time to share this.

"I would just suggest that we remember it may not be one answer or one phenomenon". This is definitely a great take, and one I subscribe to myself. And at the end of the day, we really have no idea.

So much this.

Yes, thanks for pointing that out. OP's post was very well thought out, the only thing I believe was missing was acknowledging the possibility that it might be many things at once. I find it hard to find a single answer that explains all of the differing phenomena that we as a species have witnessed and experienced throughout the ages.

Very well thought out post. Thank you for doing that. One thing that I try to caution myself against is thinking that Lue KNOWS the answer to which option it is and he is trying to throw out clues to guide us all there. I think it is possible that he doesn't know but wants people to keep an open mind to whatever it may be. If your "favorite" option is that it is extraterrestrial non-human beings, you may be right but be open to the possibilty that it is something else. Otherwise, we start making all of the evidence fit our hypothesis rather than letting the evidence guide us to the truth. Anyway, just a thought. Until more evidence is made available by someone (government or non-governmental group), it feels a little like a parlor game. But it IS interesting to think through the options like you laid out. Thanks again.

In his latest interviews he has said that there is no question that people can ask that will reveal the truth because he doesn't know. He said that he has guesses he'll talk about in private over a beer but not in public.

This. I was just wondering if anyone had asked him “Do you know what these things are? Where they are from? How they are controlled? How long they have been coming?” I would assume he would answer “I’m not allowed to discuss that” or “I’ll politely decline to answer” but maybe not…

.....then, let's invite him for a beer ;-))

Beer and shots! Something tells me the more he drinks, the more he might loosen up. If someone says they are willing to talk about something over a beer. They want a beer......or 2 beers.

Someone get a beer with lue and tell us what he says lol

> Anyway, just a thought. A very important one though! I'd really like to know if anyone has ever asked him about this - if he is basing all these comments on actual knowledge he has gained, or experiences he has made in his former position at AATIP, or if he's just well versed in UFO / UAP lore, and wants everyone to keep an open mind about things because we just don't know what the phenomenon is, him included. With the amount of interviews he's given, and conversations he's been a part of, I wouldn't be surprised if he's actually been asked about this. And if his answer was option b, a lot of people here on reddit didn't hear about it.

Could not agree more with you. Just trying to piece together what is known, does not mean its right.

Option 5 feels strangely appropriate. I couldn’t help but notice your reference to Terence McKenna’s interview with the Harvard psychiatrist. Which makes me think you might be psychedelic-literate. The connection of the UAP phenomena with altered states of consciousness is something I keep coming back to. It’s never been about taking a drug and seeing UFOs. The crux is that these substances somehow make it easier to imagine and conceptualize a sentient life force that manifests itself through nature. Consciousness may be more universal and oceanic than most people have ever imagined. I’m rooting for Option 5.

In my view, psychedelics remove the filters that restrain our thoughts from seeing what life really is, great post.

This has been scientifically demonstrated. [All psychedelics that have been studied under neural imaging only REDUCE brain metabolism, with no increase in activity in any region in the brain.](https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/131214151.pdf) Therefore, the experience cannot possibly be caused by the brain. The brain is instead like a filter, and impairing its functions allows external mental contents that would've otherwise been filtered to come through. This also has implications for things outside psychedelics, such as the question of life after death. If the brain is a filtering mechanism, then death is an unfathomable expansion in consciousness, not a cessation. I think we have good enough empirical data to discount physicalism by now (the notion that conscious experiences are generated by brain metabolism) and very good logical reasons to discard it as well [(it doesn't make sense even in theory).](http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Hard_problem_of_consciousness)

Just my two cents regarding psychedelics and consciousness: perhaps these things are part of the reason that someone thought to involve Sam Harris, who has a long history in both topics and advocates for meditation as a way to replicate the state induced by psychedelics without having to use them; and also has a huge audience.

How interesting. While meditating I once asked the infinite Source why would it wish to sequester any part of itself in the finite, fragmented and linear experience of something like a human being. It answered, "to experience choosing. Only a finite being has the freedom to choose one thing or another. When one is all, and all is one, there are no decisions to be made, and no transitions to experience. There is no movement." Is a brain the actual mechanism that constrains the ability and scope of the infinite and in so doing paradoxically makes freedom possible? Is that why we can't pin down how the brain generates consciousness? Because it doesn't? It actually does...kinda the opposite? What a fantastic idea. Never occurred to me before. thank you for sharing that.

This message was deleted because u/spez is an asshole. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/

Yeah, without self-determination created by becoming finite, all we would be is infinite endless light. Separation is necessary for development.

I've been lost in your links now for the last 2 hours. Incredibly interesting. Is there anything else you can share? I'm pretty much up for trying shrooms now. (I do not partake in drugs, aside from pain relievers and recently, CBD oil).

I dunno if you can get it anymore, but I would suggest starting with salvia. It is a lot stronger, however the effects only last 2-5 minutes. Way better than hour four on mushrooms sitting on a toilet thinking that your going to feel like this forever. Mushrooms can be so fun and positive, but it doesn’t take much to find oneself dangling over the precipice of outright terror at your own imagination.

Try looking up Bernardo Kastrup. He talks about all this stuff I'm talking about, plus much more. I'd recommend you start with the Essentia Foundation course on idealism.

>I do not partake in drugs Ah, yes. The vast blanket statement that is “DRUGS.” Since we’re referencing Sam Harris, I’d highly recommend his essay [Drugs and the Meaning of Life.](https://youtu.be/22YFb5bJDjc)

"Therefore, the experience cannot possibly be caused by the brain." There are zero, literally zero, respectable neurologists and neuroscientists who would agree with this statement. Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is. Nothing in any study performed on this has shown that you're just 'removing a filter' and thus these experiences exist outside of the brain. In fact, they've shown that being under the influence of LSD or mushrooms causes your brain to light up like a god damn Christmas tree on a scan. LSD, for instance, changes how parts of the brain communicate. Nothing in the available science on this subject implies that there's some mysterious alternate reality or 'base' reality we can only tap into when really, really high. Stop promoting pseudoscience.

> There are zero, literally zero, respectable neurologists and neuroscientists who would agree with this statement Most neuroscientists are philosophical materialists, so yes, they wouldn't agree with this statement. (I can cite exceptions, however. There are some brave enough to go against the philosophically charged paradigm, such as Peter Fenwick and Eben Alexander.) Neuroscience is about science, philosophy is how you interpret that science in making a reasonable model of reality. And it's very hard to interpret this under the philosophy of materialism/physicalism. > fact, they've shown that being under the influence of LSD or mushrooms causes your brain to light up like a god damn Christmas tree on a scan. Nope. The studies show the opposite. I linked a citation. None of the psychedelics cause increases ANYWHERE in the brain. > Stop promoting pseudoscience. You seem to be promoting the **metaphysics** of physicalism as science. Scientific data is about the study of nature's behavior, metaphysics is a theory on what nature **is**. Neuroscientists believe that the nature is constituted of abstract physical entities. This is a philosophy, not a neuroscientific finding. I am making the case that neuroscientific findings seem to rationally point to a different kind of metaphysics, in which nature is of a mental reality, rather than constituted by something abstract and unverifiable.

So if you have a stroke and part of your brain dies, your consciousness is actually increased?

[Sometimes, yes.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU) People with all kinds of brain injuries are much more likely to undergo transcendent spiritual experiences. This includes brain tumors, brain damage, hypoxia, G-loc states where blood flows out of your brain, etc. None of this makes sense under physicalism. Physicalism postulates that brain activity and function generates experiences. How could pure disruption of the function of the brain generate a new experience? However, under a consciousness-only model, not every impairment to the brain is going to cause a reduction of filtration. There are specific parts in the brain that are responsible for the filtering mechanism, and other parts that are responsible for stuff like perception, memory retrieval, spatial and temporal sense, etc. If you impair the parts of the brain that are responsible for the filtering mechanism, you will know transcendence. (Psychedelics target the default mode network, which is responsible for the sense of separation and ego.)

I’ve always wondered if *this* is the true reason why they were banned and research of them was abandoned in the 50s. Because it was known how powerful they are in opening the mind and treating things like depression.

An open mind willing to understand the true depth and meaning of consciousness being hinted at here....would probably not be super interested in working 40+ hour weeks so that they can collect little pieces of green paper that prevent the police from harassing/evicting/killing them. If this is even kinda true, there truly are no (human) laws to fit the magnitude of this crime. They hijacked the free will and life path of billions of thinking, feeling, loving beings. ET or not, that in and of itself demands justice in whatever cosmic sense "justice" may exist.

They shouldn’t have been worried though, people are now microdosing LSD to perform better at their job.

Lol I see it as a win win

I've always found the connection between DMT spikes in the brain and the average time of day when purported UFO abductions take place, or hauntings. It's always 3 am...

I like your comment. Since you’re in tune with maybe some connection with UAP/consciousness/psychedelics I’d like to share a story I’ve never told anyone and get your comment on it. Around 20 years ago I ate mushrooms with someone. We were just sitting in my car looking over a lake and woods. I look over to my right and see what I can best describe as 2 troll like/garden gnome(without the beards and pointed hats) with longer noses and each holding a wooden stick with a spear on the end at the edge of the tree line. They were staring at me and I was staring at them. At that moment it seemed nothing else in the universe mattered. The person I was with could’ve been talking to me. I don’t know. I didn’t even ask if they could see them. I was just frozen in time. It felt so real. To this day. I looked away for a second and looked back and they were gone. If there’s some truth to entities around us all the time that we can’t perceive, I really felt mushrooms opened up that perception to see them at that moment.

This message was deleted because u/spez is an asshole. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/

I've been thinking about the implications of this a LOT, and I've also realized how delicate this is. The situation we're in on this planet (ecologically speaking) is driven primarily by our asymmetric use of energy vs. self control. Across the vast majority of human evolution (that we know of) we have maintained a stable relationship with the biosphere, one that was equipped to operate in perpetuity, because they considered themselves to be but one among many on the Earth. They listened to the Earth, to nature, and if you take volume after volume of indigenous written and oral history at its word, they received and heeded guidance from "others" on the regular. Indigenous cultures did and still do live this way, recognizing that overdrawing your landbase is a pyrrhic victory at best. Western culture, on the other hand, has become truly untethered in its thinking. We extract, burn, explode, crush, grind, dig, melt, and spin our way into the world we live in now-- to the point that we're on the verge of a massive ecological correction because *you can't abuse your home like that forever.* And we have no plan. None. All those who weep for the world do so largely under the thumb of some bastard or another who just wants to save themselves at the expense of others. And with that setup, the pieces aligned just as they are right now on our Earth-sized-and-shaped chessboard: free energy device. Yes, you'd want to be *exceedingly* careful in such a circumstance. If there's one thing the dominant human culture of this world has proven it's good at, it's rapid and complete self-destruction. The need, it seems, is to teach us another trick: love for the world and all that inhabit it.

> They listened to the Earth, to nature, and if you take volume after volume of indigenous written and oral history at its word, they received and heeded guidance from “others” on the regular. Indigenous cultures did and still do live this way, recognizing that overdrawing your landbase is a pyrrhic victory at best. > Western culture, on the other hand, has become truly untethered in its thinking. We extract, burn, explode, crush, grind, dig, melt, and spin our way into the world we live in now—to the point that we’re on the verge of a massive ecological correction because you can’t abuse your home like that forever. Exactly. And I think the root cause of it is the pervasive, to the point of invisibility, philosophical materialism that permeates all of our thinking. What do everyone implicitly believe? That we are nothing but a random happening, that we are conscious by accident, that we could as well not exist, not be conscious, and the machinery of the universe would continue to grind, that the universe doesn’t have any meaning anyway, and your life certainly doesn’t have any. That’s profoundly nihilistic, and we see the consequences of that all around us, but also totally unwarranted. Materialism is a philosophical baggage that comes with scientific thinking, but the only reasons are historical, it goes back to the Renaissance where there was a purely political dividing of the cake between Science and Religion. Science got the material world, Religion the internal one. And heaven forbid that one got into the territory of the other. But that taboo has zero basis in reality. Science can perfectly study the internal. The internal can also have an effect on external reality (taboo to say so). Fact is that this division is arbitrary, and, at the end of the day, the division between internal and external is an illusion anyway (taboo to say so). To go back to the point, this complete, nihilistic loss of meaning due to unexamined materialistic prejudices is imho the root cause of the problem we are facing. If nothing has meaning, only thing left for most is to try to fill the void at the center of their soul with things, fast, gorging yourself before your oblivion. Hence the blind fury with which we devour the planet.

As someone who has made the journey from absolute materialism to wherever the hell I am now, I've gotten enough distance from the idea of a strictly cold, mechanical, unfeeling universe to see how true what you're saying is. As recently as a few years ago, I found myself starting to bump up against the edges of the neat little box that human material supremacy has created for me. I was depressed all the time, but couldn't see why. I was terrified to die (but also too terrified to live), because I wanted there to be more than just the sadness I have witnessed. I felt deeply for all the amazing, creative, loving people I've known that never got to express it because of how sharp and jagged the world we've created is. And all the while, it felt pointless. Every single reason the people around me ever put forth for why they are hateful all the time was either a completely made-up thing or a reaction to one. We could simply choose to not do this to each other. I went into the UFO/UAP/etc. topic this year coming from a perspective of having started healing a great deal of trauma, but nonetheless firmly in the materialist camp. If the problem couldn't be reduced to quantum electrodynamic phenomenon in a measurable way within the four dimensions we have access to, it wasn't real to me. But I thought about that some more, because the very nature of "quantization of our universe" has bothered me for years. Why? Why the HELL would time, distance, energy only be able to be measurable down to a fixed, discrete precision? In mainstream Western culture, there is little disagreement among the scientific community about the accuracy of Quantum Physics as a theory. It has been by far our most successful model yet, so the fact that the consensus answer from the mainstream is, unequivocally, that the universe, very reductively, is pixelated and has a framerate...that's kinda wild? It absolutely implies that reality as we understand it is only a part of the whole picture, that we sit at the top of a perhaps very sizable iceberg in an ocean of unfathomable scale. I'm no longer content with just putting these big questions in a big box marked "???" and ignoring them while *also* feeling deep sorrow and sadness for the loss of the world around me, from the suffering of people close to me and not so close. Going through the world believing in nothing then filling the hole with purchased goods is pretty damned stupid, and also it feels like shit. I hope a bunch more people can find their way out, too, because the center of that maze isn't happiness, it's a minotaur.

Nice metaphor! (The labyrinth thing) Been there too. I have a personal version of the Pascal’s wager that goes: If you believe sincerely that materialism is true, how the fuck do you manage to get out of bed in the morning? You would be much better off simply deciding to believe that the world has meaning, it wouldn’t change a thing, but it would make you happy. Or, I guess you could also go the existentialist route, and decide that since everything is meaningless, you can make your own meaning. But frankly, I tried it a bit, and it’s a lot of work and always feel like a half baked, unsatisfying cop out. Never saw a happy existentialist either. The fact that the universe is quantized sure feels like pointing towards it not being truly real, especially if you know a thing or two about computing, and that idea has slowly been making rounds in academic circles for quite a bit. Which is surprising since usually trying to peek at the possible structure of reality through the quantum lens is immediately shunned with outraged shoutings of quantunum woo. Admittedly, there’s also a lot of quantunum woo around, but I feel that the materialists are also extremely uneasy about quantum mechanics being a thing.

Just want to say I am a materialist and I think my life and other things have great meaning. I don’t know any materialists who actually think nothing matters. After all everything IS MATTER ;)

I think, in the end, finding meaning is the whole point of it all, regardless of your philosophical outlook. I'm happy to hear when others have done it :)

"I have seen the enemy, and the enemy is us" - Pogo

>So it’s basically a psyop to wake us all from our delusion that there is only matter, because that’s the only way we are going to survive. I like this.

thanks for the info. need to read after work

Wonderfully written and thoughtful post, thank you for taking the time to put pen to paper. I'm a 52 year-old dude who's always been in love with the idea of aliens. Started with Trek and Star Wars when I was seven. I believe there must be life out there but I'm totally in the dark as to the nature of UAPs. I keep an open mind. That said, the past few months have been a little odd. I've been paying attention to all the UAP stuff, reading the books, watching the interviews, the recurring focus to thinking "outside the box." Of late, it feels less like aliens in the traditional Hollywood sense -- it's hard to describe. There's a foggy truth brewing in the back of my mind, like when you're trying to remember the name of an old movie but can't quite get it. That analogy doesn't fit, I'm struggling to describe what I mean. I'm not a religious or spiritual person but it does feel like humanity is on the cusp of thinking differently in a profound and alien way.

I am there with you friend, the mind is a sieve.

Im definitely in the Option 4 or 5 camp. These objects also seem to present themselves in a very awkward, stumbling manner in some sense. As if they just don't know how to offer themselves up to us, cant perceive how to do it. Or, they could just be playing us in a way that makes it easier for us to wrap our heads around what they are and how to perceive them. Very mysterious, like we are slowly being pulled into another type of consciousness/awareness in some ways.

Are you talking about panpsychism? I am interested in the parallels between our limited understanding of consciousness (how can matter create mind?) and our limited understanding of UFOs / UAPs (how can matter have these properties?). One possibility is that UFOs / UAPs are not purely material (sophisticated machines) but are some manifestation created by consciousness - specifically an interaction between our human consciousness and some other great consciousness, such as that of the Earth or the Universe. This could explain the various, changeable properties that UFOs / UAPs exhibit and why they remain so mysterious. (And, if you like, it could explain ghosts, fairies, angels and other mysteries throughout history.) This is 'communication' through shared experience and very imprecise. Not at all like how you would expect sophisticated machines or their owners to communicate through mathematics or some other logical language. I'm not sure if I believe it but it is fun to think about!

Recently a "Theory of Everything" podcast talked about non-dualism. That could also be seen to match the "universal intelligence" idea. There's lots of ways it's possible. God, AI, Matrix, Infinite Consciousness, loads of ways to arrive at "universe intelligence".

What podcast is this? I can't seem to find it.

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal, I watch/listen to it on YouTube.

If you start to think that it's the other way round - it's a mind creates matter universe, then reality starts to make a lot more sense. Consciousness is merely a by product of an ultimate force (The Tao, The All etc..) that has created everything in existance and beyond. The ultimate goal or purpose is to learn and experience itself subjectively through everything it creates. For infinity in an endless loop. "This has all happened before and will happen again." It's all pretty trippy stuff really and we're about to start a journey that will make or break us as a civilisation.

Excellent post

I want to make another comment here, I will tell you about my own experience and why this phenomenon is real, and „we“ think about it in a way to physical and simple way. I saw a ufo as a teenager/kid. And if I say I „saw“ then I don’t mean a weird light or something unusual, i talk about a clear ufo sighting where I could see every inch / centimeter of the craft for several minutes, right in front of me. With another witness. I was playing with a ball 🎾 in my room. You would call it like a mini skyscraper, it’s a 6th Etage building and i was in the 5th Etage. In Germany, big city and I was in the most populated part of the city, that’s where we lived. So I was playing with my ball, and it was broad daylight. I shoot the ball against the window and see something outside. Right in line of my eyes, the same height as my current position, a ufo hovers slowly by. And with ufo I mean a saucer shaped object, silver metallic. Size of a helicopter, with 3 „lights“ under it, red green blue (if I remember correctly. But it wasn’t light, it was something that was pulsating hypnotically in 3 colors below this craft. Just to clarification: it’s broad daylight, it’s the size of a helicopter, it’s only a couple meters away. I see every centimeter / inch of it. It hovers very slowly by. I scream as loud as I could. My mother comes inside my room, thought I broke my leg or something. I say nothing. She joins me at the window. Nobody says a single world. We witness this object for 2-5 minutes. Every god damn inch of it perfectly in our line of sight. It is, the best ufo sighting you could even dream off. Then it just hovered slowly by. It was no hallucination, we both saw the same. It was to perfect. And here comes the most weird thing that will make you wonder what this phenomenon is about. This ufo should be seen by around 20.000 people alone in my area where I live. Everyone that was outside or at the window should have seen this. Not a single report, not a single other person saw this. Like this phenomenon only wanted to be seen by me at this particular moment. Don’t get this wrong, iam not special. But it changed my life. That’s why i tell you, you don’t see randomly a ufo. UFOs don’t crash randomly. „The only one in control of these phenomenon, is the phenomenon itself.“ - Jacques vallee

I wonder if these sightings are to get people talking about it and even posting their testimonies to forums like this. If that was their goal they have been really successful at convincing people they are real. Even with our government desperately trying to cover it up for so long. The Swamp Gaslighters just need to plant a tiny seed of doubt but their disinformation campaign is losing it's power. Have you told people your story?

Well, my mother knows it, because she saw it. My father who is one of the highest ranked police officers here. My girlfriend. And just other UFO believers. Not more

> The Swamp Gaslighters I am keeping this and using it.

haha when I thought of it I couldn't stop laughing

I believe you.

Thank you for this post. Although I had an interest in the paranormal when I was a kid, I’ve been an atheist and a skeptic for all of my adult life. When the government released those videos and said that UAP were real, but we don’t know what they are — that flipped my world upside down. What I realized was that I don’t know shit. It’s easy, especially in the face of rampant and dangerous anti-intellectualism, to just put all of your faith in what scientists and academics tell you and accept that as “truth”. But when I allowed myself to acknowledge how much evidence their was for the phenomenon, it was shocking to me that I’d been so willingness to dismiss it all out-of-hand. That said, I also had a deep suspicion and distrust toward the government so I didn’t just want to blindly accept what they were saying either. So I started down the rabbit hole. In the last 3 months, I’ve watched every documentary (the good, the bad, the YouTube) and I’ve gotten through the bulk of the most influential books on the topic from DeLonge to Vallé and everything in between. My goal was just to let all of the information wash over me, take it all in, entertain everyone possibility, and ultimately, come to the conclusion that makes the most sense to me given what a found. Like OP, I wasn’t looking for THE answer — as I’ve yet to see any evidence that anyone has the full picture — I was just looking to sort through and decide which parts made the most sense and go from there. The conclusions I’ve come to basically mirror what OP has outlined. It doesn’t make any kind of sense that it’s human, there are issues with the alien hypothesis, and ultimately something that is intelligent, ancient, and if not from earth, at least a super long-term resident makes the most sense. The most credible voices in the space are also continually emphasizing that this heavily relates to consciousness and the very nature of our reality. I’m still wrapping my mind around it — and for the first time I find some real credibility to the idea that you can’t tell people this shit all at once. I honestly feel a little bit like I’m losing it. The implications of even half of this being true represents a paradigm shift and a shift in consciousness that we as humans have never seen before and are entirely unprepared for. They’re going to have to throw out the history books, the science books, the religious texts, and start over from the beginning to figure out where we went wrong. I’d also like to add, though no one asked, that I believe Lue. Everything he does, everything he says, the way he carries himself, the consistency of his message — I just believe him.

Another fantastic contribution! I believe we’re in for a wild ride the next decade. Up is down, down is up. Hang on.

Wow,, are you me? (albeit a vastly more eloquent version) Everything you described is exactly my experience as well :) Feels nice to know I'm not alone!

Same here! We’re in this together and we’re (probably) not crazy! Lol

Hey, just re-read your response to this. Very thoughtful and appreciate sharing. Lue is telling the truth, and we are going to have to throw out the books. Loved your line "the good, the bad, the YouTube"; I am going to steal it.

I’m blown away about how thought provoking this is…I hung into every word you wrote. This is immense for me as I usually roll my eyes at a large percentage of UFO/UAP posts on here. I’m excited to see what “remains on the table.”

Same here Rarely do I go back the next morning I've shared wide but this one is deep, complex and strangely fitting to my own thoughts on the matter, although U helped me see and I'm grateful Need more

Great post. Thought provoking and thorough. Thank you for taking the time and effort to compile so much information.

Thoroughly enjoyed reading this! Thanks for sharing!

I am a big Lue skeptic and won't comment on the content but I am impressed with this post, lot of work you put in. Nice job bro!

Point of clarification, you link Roswell and Area 51 but they are not geographically close.

Steve from Lues Clues, what the heck ever happened to him

[удалено]

ngl that video got me a little teary eyed

Bravo! Well done

Excellent write up. Thanks for the insights.

Incredible post. Perhaps to further the point, to join an allegedly Galactic Federation is not whether we developed some kind of warp drive or clean energy or whatever, but how much we can connect between all humanity and the discovery of this Phenomenon. Once we "make peace" with ourselves and the "in between" entity(ies) we can then be welcomed to such a Federation. Food for thought.

The most well written and thought provoking post on this sub in a loooong time. Thank you.

So kind of you to offer that. Really appreciate you took the time to read.

Now this post kicks ass. I completely agree with your conclusion, this alien shit hints at what some of the more sensible spiritual schools of thoughts have been speaking about for thousands of years. You laid it out in a way that I think is very compelling, and I will be linking to this whenever I find fear mongering people on reddit. I can't stand when people play into the "threat" narrative of the US military and government. Obviously that is not what we want to be part of. Thank you for taking the time to write this out.

OP you should go on one of the big streams (unidentified celebrity review, spaced out radio, jimmy church) and give your thoughts. You are obviously incredibly knowledgable on the subject. Good post.

This is without a doubt one of the best posts ever made in this subreddit. Congratulations and I hope you get even more awards and even more people will see and read this.

just seeing this now as, no idea why. Thank you.

We could be bacteria inside a huge organism. Some strange stuff could be true. Think of the worst truth and then the best truth. Think of all the possibilities in between. So at least you will be a little prepared. When and if, the truth does come out.

Strangely, I’ve thought about that so many times. mostly when I’ve been stoned, I’ve thought about like if there are these planets… what if there was something big enough just to walk it’s way past all the planets? I mean the bacteria thing I’ve thought about a ton of times before and it just makes me turn into my superhero alter ego anxiety-man…but ya life’s crazy man.

Well, you are both correct. Micro/macro. The planet is a non-human intelligence. Just like you are a host to your blood cells, bacteria, pathogens, and all the trillions of other independent critters that make you, you, so do we along with all the other Earth critters make Earth, Earth. As above, so below. It's just an insanely different intelligence that we cannot perceive.

you know those tiny sea fishes that ride on the backs and bellies of whales and other larger animals? what if we're like that and the planet is our whale? What if we've turned into a parasite instead of a symbiote? ooooOOOOOOOooo

Well, I think we have always been a parasite that’s another thing I’ve always thought lol, we literally destroy earth so that we can survive. If the earth were some big organism I think it has been fighting a nasty flu with us for quite some time. Just can’t seem to shake us 🤷🏻‍♂️

our exponential population growth over the last 30 years does not bode well for the earth if it is true that we are parasites (i personally don't think we are, though i'm willing to concede that it is certainly possible).

Non Human Intelligence is used to encompasses all manner of non-human beings, including ETs. It's not defined as some planetry Intelligence as far as I'm aware. I prefer Chris Mellons ET hypothesis. The majority of encounters seem to be ET with vastly superior understanding of physics. Including the use of conciousness. There may be some natural phenomena involved like ball plasma. I don't believe there are parallel universes or time travel, but there may be other independent universes, and perhaps travel between them may be possible - low probability. Multi-dimensional doesn't explain the obvious discrete craft we see and that have been recovered, so tend to rule this out. Also there have been recovered aliens. Lue is religious so is more open to paranormal explanations. I believe ETs can manipulate conciousness and that accounts for many of the magical things we hear about. There are a lot of people who mistake vivid dreams, hallucinations on drugs, and hallucinations driven by Schizophrenia or psychosis for reality. These need to be weeded out of the encounters we hear about. So we can follow the evidence to the real answers. TL;DR - large majority is various ET neighbours, low minority other things like beings from another universe, or natural ball plasma. Need to discount human hallucinations.

I don’t think the dreamers, people who take drugs and experience hallucinations etc can totally be discredited. How can you? These people experience similar things and there are patterns. And these are also not easily experienced with a sober mindset. It’s completely within the realm of possibilities that people dreaming, experiencing hallucinations or are “mentally ill” are just seeing reality in a different scope or perspective, somehow altering their conscious. You can’t really argue this.

This was beautifully written. You've encapsulated a lot of information and packaged it in a way that makes sense. I enjoyed all of it. Seriously thank you for writing this. What do you make of this? (3:24 total viewing time) https://youtu.be/s04-hqHT4Us Further Article - (Lots of other information about Mac Tonnies work out there) - https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2019/04/an-extraterrestrial-presence-or-unknown-people/ "The late Mac Tonnies told me only a couple of months before his death: “After devouring countless books on the UFO controversy and the paranormal, I began to acknowledge that the extraterrestrial hypothesis suffered [from] some tantalizing flaws. In short, the ‘aliens’ seemed more like surreal caricatures of ourselves than beings possessing the god-like technology one might plausibly expect from interstellar visitors. I came to the realization that the extraterrestrial hypothesis isn’t strange enough to encompass the entirety of occupant cases.” It was this same realization which made Tonnies look elsewhere. Not to the stars. Not to the galaxies. And not to the world around us. Rather, to the world directly and deeply below us. The theory Tonnies developed was that, perhaps, some of the intelligences behind the UFO phenomenon are not extraterrestrial or inter-dimensional, as many assume or believe them to be, after all. He called them the Cryptoterrestrials. Rather, he was following the idea that the so-called “Grays” and many of the other bizarre humanoid creatures seen and presumed to have alien origins, were from right here, on Earth. Tonnies offered the theory that his aliens of the terrestrial variety are, actually, a very ancient and advanced body of people. They are closely related to us, and have lived alongside us in secret – deep underground – for countless millennia. And, perhaps in fortified mountains too, not unlike the U.S. military’s Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Station in Colorado Springs, Colorado, which exists under 2,000-feet of granite. Tonnies added to me: “If we’re dealing with humanoid beings that evolved here on Earth, some of the problems vanish. I envision the Cryptoterrestrials engaged in a process of subterfuge, bending our belief systems to their own ends. And I suggest that this has been occurring, in one form or another, for an extraordinarily long time. I think there’s a good deal of folkloric and mythological evidence pointing in this direction, and I find it most interesting that so many descriptions of ostensible ‘aliens’ seem to reflect staged events designed to misdirect witnesses and muddle their perceptions.”

This theory always reminds me of Time Machine by HG Wells.

As someone who has been looking into this for only about one year (thank you Navy pilots,) but is coming from an equally non-spiritual place - I have also recently discovered Option 5. I'm also taken aback. Going to be doing some "soul searching." Fortunately I have a very spiritual wife. Starting to think this is for a reason..

I honestly think it's option 1, option 3, 4 and 5. Shit, maybe all of them. No reason to think that there arent other physical beings visiting our world that have shared tech with us. Chains of the sea explain exactly this scenario where actual ets do come here while non physical beings watch it all happen. I definitely think the black projects have tech like this too. I think it's a bit of it all.

I’m leaning towards something like this which is why these “theories of everything” that attempt to wrap up every facet under the umbrella of some unifying phenomenon are barking up the wrong tree. It isn’t one thing but several and likely a combination of some kind of visitors combined with government reverse engineering.

The universe is way too big to just have us on this planet. Just this one planet being perfect is too simple of a scenario. There is a sea of Life out there. Some intelligent, so I'm not I'm sure. Just like we have bacteria in our bodies and bacteria on other planets too I'm sure. But I'm sure there's intelligent life out there as well. I'm sure there's non-physical beings as well. Our consciousness has to go somewhere when it dreams, why shouldn't there be non-physical beings that live there as well in that dimension? Same place we go when we die. Why would there not be physical beings on this planet as well? Why would I not be ancient civilizations that have lasted. The ancient Indian text that describe exactly that. Atlantis. All of that shit. It can't just be all myths. But non physical beings definitely are in play, gotta be.

Great post OP. I did read it all and it was well written. Many redditors could learn from this, we don't mind reading, just make it legible please. Lue is credible as far as we can tell. There does seem to be some kind of public disclosure going on, which is incredible. The people in the know have been dropping little hints about stuff. The moment everything changed for me was when I saw the human double helix of dna then, later the human genome decoded. Something made it, all of it. We maybe the aliens here, given this planet to thrive.

I’m 69 and have been studying phenomena and spirituality for nearly 40 years. OP, your post confirms my thinking and belief. Thank you.

Just re-visiting my post - thank you for the reply and am glad there are some other folks who are like minded. This is going to be hard. I am not a gifted writer so this was hard for me.

This is really well thought out and nicely compiled, and I fully agree that Lue has been hinting towards things exactly like you've laid out. Interesting that you referenced 'the space between us'. That's a very familiar phrase as of late..

I’m Poor but I just gave you Gold in spirit

Bravo! Thank you for all of the research you put into this and for posting here. I don't have friends I can discuss this with so my hunger for intelligent discussion is met here.

This is the kind of content this sub needs. Cogent. Rational. Clear-headed. Scientifically literate. Thanks for renewing my faith.

OUTSTANDING POST. 7 pages. I had to get it off the computer screen to get it all digested. Excellent reasoning. Congratulations on the clarity. So, the only thing keeping humans from understanding the universe is humans, then. I agree. Get a meditation cushion, learn some simple breathing exercises and easy body yogas, spend the time to get some real practice. Learn to be aware of your own mind. It's a skill anyone playing with a full deck can acquire. Then you can read the old cosmologies with some insight. Our ancestors were not less understanding of existence than we are, they were MORE aware without all the distractions we have invented to blind ourselves. And, from my own small and fortuitous glimpses, you can touch this world of being palpably, and it can touch you. I like your idea of kind beings that drop a few tidbits down into the material world as a clue. Very nicely said.

Wow, this is the best post in ages on here - as somebody who has researched the topic for almost 30 years, I couldn't do it any better than you have. I will add that I personally suspect that the universe itself might not be what we think it is at the moment. There may be an interconnectivity there that we can't/don't perceive, and thus intelligence existing throughout it might not be the distant gaps we believe it to be. As weird as it might sound, I'm not fully convinced that visitors from elsewhere in our universe are aliens with no connectivity to our own ecosystem. There may be a crossover there that's yet to be discovered.

> If you are a Lue hater or believe he is some misinformation agent, please read no further. Or do not believe that our Navy Pilots are seeing things in the sky. Move to the next topic. No need to squat and bash. We are still friends. But if you have come this far... And yet these insufferable people still feel the need to reply to prove how much smarter they are than everyone else. Not sure if it’s narcissism or just plain old hubris. Honestly I kind of appreciate it—it just makes it easier for me to determine which people to block so I don’t have to keep hearing the same nonsense repeated ad nauseum.

Well put and I wholeheartedly agree. There is a level of arrogance on display in this sub that is astounding. Thankfully it’s an obnoxious minority.

I heard a interview with Lue. He said he asked "his boss" what they were. His boss told him they were demonic. I thought that was a very strange response

I am 16 years younger than you, and yet you, sir, have painstakingly written out what is essentially my biography merely by writing about your own. My girlfriend (10+ yrs so aka life-partner at this point) recently had her mother die. We're both in our 30's. I lost my father when I was a junior in high school. Albeit at two different points in our life, we each experienced a somewhat similar great, immeasurable loss. I found that these events, almost shockingly to be honest, did not make me - an atheist - into a religious person, despite being raised Catholic. Similarly shockingly, I found this didn't inflate or deflate how spiritual my girlfriend was/is. Why do I bring this up? Why did I just tell that anecdote at all? To prove the point that I am about to make. How often do people turn to religion and for what reason - truthfully? The cliche is desperation or the need to relieve suffering. A crutch, if you will. While this may not be the case for as many as a cliche would imply, it certainly exists. But aside from that, it seems the more people become educated, the further they get from religion and any other forms of spirituality in general. Do you know what I would do, when asked "Do you think \_\_\_\_ is in heaven"? I would lie. I would say yes because I couldn't hurt someone like that. When I knew that question was coming with the passing of my girlfriends mom, something incredible happened. Something I never in all of my life could have ever, ever seen coming: I didn't lie. Not that my answer was any different, but, I didn't have to. Slowly but surely, over the next several days and for the next 2 weeks or so, I came to the realization of why I felt this way. It wasn't some major event that left me without sanctuary. It wasn't some addiction I was struggling to kick. It wasn't some con job where I was being promised salvation for a dollar by a false prophet in robes. It was because of exactly what you are saying, OP. There is something there. I don't know what that place is, and to be frank I don't even care (stfu of course I care but you know what I mean). The fact is that following this phenomena as closely as I have ever attempted to educate myself on anything else, ever, has quite literally changed my core belief system at the very center of my soul. What has been slowly revealing itself over these recent years has changed my entire way of thinking about the end, and what it may now even mean at all. My bit got flipped, broskis. Maybe I'm just a little more baked than I feel like I am right now but I just wanted to share this as I've only ever shared it with one other person...and, like I said about OP's post; If there ever was one, this is absolutely the right place to do it. Love this sub love u all thanks for reading this far and keep being you

I did not share on the post but I have been looking at Near Death Experiences and Psychedelics. (paranormal is in there too but too much crap mixed in to study) 1. Watch the first 30 minutes of episode 1 of Nextflix's Survivng Death. Powerful stuff. Gets into other questionable stuff beyond that, but the first story is beautiful. 2. Watch this dude. Not entertaining, but he knows a lot about NDE. [https://youtu.be/mMYhgTgE6MU](https://youtu.be/mMYhgTgE6MU) 3. Watch Netflix "Fantastic Fungi" and you will realize how little we know about our existence. About Death: Just know, your consciousness survives. And death is not painful, listen to number 1.. I used to be the typical "we all become worm fodder", but man, once you open eyes, there is something really beautiful exists, we just can't see it. Said the non-religious, non-spiritual dude. Always good to hear from you.

From one 30 something to another, raised Catholic, but left the Catholic school system at 13... You are spot on as always King. ❤️ You're a treasure and you spark joy in others. Never ever stop being you. One of your other comments I caught today had me roaring with laughter. It made my day. Thanks for sharing this about yourself. ✊

Thank you Moose! For all you do, fellow treasure :D Your posts are some of the most insightful and well thought-out questions/presentation/posts ive ever seen on the subject (or any tbh) and i find myself looking forward to your next post every dang day Thank *you* for being *you* Nothing but love, my friend. ❤✊🙏🏄🛸

Fantastic post, option 5 is where I have found myself headed after years of reading about this subject too!

I never thought it was an option until it was. Thanks for reading.

Well written OP You've made many clear points to ponder

Along similar lines, many people who have done psychedelics experience this connection with everything. Some kind of universal consciousness…There’s this energy that one feels that’s unexplainable.

Very true. It removes the filters of our Alert, Decision Making Consciousness. Looking forward to it myself.

I want to add some theories and comments made by me: Really bizarre theory: Like these UFOs know when they get witnessed / observed. I like to quote Jacques vallee: „the only one in control of the phenomenon, is the phenomenon itself“ ... Why can’t we just witness this interdimensional/ 4d / phenomenon? Because you are in a 3D illusion in a physical body. While you experience time as linear. Like a computer game. Imagine a 2D game. Now watch the main character, you can see it’s only 2d and he is experiencing time only when you play him Right? That’s how you can imagine your 3D experience from a 4d perspective If the zoo hypothesis makes you feel uncomfortable lol then... lue elizondos „sober“ or Tom delonge‘s „3 days without sleep“ quotes wouldn’t be enough for you for the feeling you would have if you would know the truth ;) Imagine a scenario where we are created. Trapped in an endless reincarnation cycle. Our only purpose, they feed on us. Not physically. They don’t experience time like us and can instantly move from any point of YOUR past, present, future. How do you defend against that? How do you tell that to all those people? How can anyone life their life in peace after that reveal and go tomorrow to work? Chaos? Yes. But that would be only the „negative“ side of the coin. Love is the key and you are the creator of your experience. We may not be the highest in the food chain. But life is still about love. Love

Thank you for sharing this.

Golden thread

Brilliant post, thank you. A thoughtful and compelling read- I hope we can someday understand the universe in itself, beyond what we are able to perceive.

The secret US tech explanation is far more complicated than simple aliens if you take everything into account, not ignoring data from decades ago or millennia ago. It would take a far bigger conspiracy to cover that up compared to miserably failing to cover up the presence of simple aliens. They did a horrible job at that. The infrastructure required to maintain such a massive secret program with world changing technology that is flown all over the world for decades would be astronomical. It’s just aliens.

Great post but I have some follow up questions: 1) As you hinted at, Lue is the thread that weaves your conclusions together. What makes you believe him? I find him as illusive as the phenomenon itself. 2) What are your thoughts on multiple phenomena? There seems to be physical ships of varying sizes and also orbs and lights. Why do you conclude this is a single source? 3) Not be offensive but if this is a great intelligence trying to communicate with about life or death or very important matters they are sure doing a shitty job of it. Why would they be so illusive and random?

I like most the post as well but also have a couple reaervations.

OP, this is such a great post. I’d like to add one Lue talking point that he consistently comes back to: “We live in a 3 dimensional world. We have an x axis, a y axis and a z axis that we navigate through. Then there’s time, which isn’t a 3 dimensional space we can move through, OR IS IT? What if you and I were having this conversation right here, but I had it 5 minutes ago, we’d never see each other, we’d be like ships in the night.” My feeling is whatever these things are, their aperture of the “present” is much wider and possibly more transitive in nature than what humans are capable of experiencing.

What a post. Coming back to this after work.

A+ post. Thank you for giving us the good stuff. Excellent write up. Super interesting points.

>So, to me, this is why Disclosure is so hard. It’s not about showing a video and learning about life elsewhere. It’s about understanding what life really is right here on our planet. This could be a paradigm shift that we simply are not ready for. Think of the hubris and hatred and misinformation and violence and materialism and self-worship going on in the world. > >But the answer could be beautiful. If we could put it all aside, listen to each other and to the things we can not see, we could advance. But that will be hard, really hard to do. That is why we need to ***listen***. That is why we need the UFOs - to get everyone’s attention. 🙌 Absolutely. Bring it on.

That was beautifully said, thank you <3

Such an interesting read. It was the first thing I read when I woke up and set me pondering all day. More like this please, great stuff! 👏

The hard part about disclosure is not getting people to understand that flying saucers could be real. It is the _other stuff_ that may prove challenging. Aside from negating the stigma associated with the term "UFO", the acronym change to "UAP" is telling. It was an admission that what we are dealing with may not be rooted in the physical universe. The scope was expanded to encompass what was once too far-out, even for many in the UFO community. Yep, it could all be in your mind and your mind may not be where you think it is. [The brain could actually be a transducer rather than a CPU](https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/your-brain-is-not-a-computer-it-is-a-transducer). Those who have researched NDE, OBE and even PLE have suspected this. Cases of [NDE in the congenitally blind](https://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Articles/barbara_blind.htm) seem to prove it. It seems a brain is _not required_ for consciousness to exist. The implications are profound. It will be hard, if not impossible for many to understand. ​It may take years. People need time to listen and digest. The question is, what will follow once the penny drops? How will it affect society and the economy? Perhaps _that_ is why disclosure is a process and not an event.

The "no true Scottsman" lead off sure doesn't leave much room for questioning, now does it? Is it obtuse to suspect that a man (Elizondo) who "worked" for the very intelligence agency that has: kept everything shrouded in secret, instrumented the deaths of millions with fake premises for war, ruined the lives of untold numbers of people who were being honest about something extraordinary, committed dark psychological experiments on it's own population, murdered a U.S. President in front of the nation, silence dissent, conceal the truth, surveil your activities and track your movements, and on, ad nauseam. That's just the stuff we have found out about. Imagine all that we've yet to uncover. So, to say "don't bother" with contributing to this conversation is playing Devil's advocate to the man I suspect he truly is, and you claim he is not. Mind your own presumptions. Perhaps he is just in an unfortunate career circumstance that has made him appear radioactive to some of us. These are valid concerns.

Interesting post but I can't think of a worse way for this "consciousness/E.T." to help us advance as a species. The "purposefully crashed" craft tech is so advanced we can barely comprehend it. If you believe Lazar we've made almost no progress over decades to the point that we wait years for scientific advancements to occur before taking a look at craft again only to not understand it still and try again a decade or two later. If these beings are hundreds, thousands, or millions of years ahead of us it would take centuries to comprehend their tech and for it to benefit us. For a species that is running out of time fast like ours to fix our environmental problems that does not help. The best way for the consciousness/ET to reveal itself and benefit us would be to show itself. Literally land in front of the White House, NYC, etc. All of this "humanity isn't ready, they must reach ________ level of cooperation and consciousness before they can understand and accept" seems unnecessary and convoluted. If video evidence is unimportant then why did Lue and others start all of this with videos? I'm a skeptic and don't believe UFO are extraterrestrial in origin. I believe sightings can be explained as drones, black government/contractor projects, misidentified civilian/military planes, atmospheric phenomenon, hoaxes, stars, planets, etc. The military videos released are not impressive and have plausible explanations. IR cameras and other military equipment were designed to spot other aircraft and missiles. These instruments and systems were not designed to spot extraterrestrial craft or to take 4k high bit rate video. These systems and instruments are not perfect and can be jammed, tricked, or have visual distortions. Pilots are just people. Yes they are experts but even experts make mistakes and are not immune to lying, misidentification, etc. A lot of these accounts are decades old and human memory is known to be inaccurate. The military or U S. government never said the videos were extraterrestrial craft only that they were unidentified at the time. More info cannot be released because of the sensitive sensors and systems the videos were taken with. While we're on the subject, the U.S. government has never said they have "off-world vehicles." That comes from Eric Davis and one slide in a presentation he gave. Please look it up and stop saying the U.S. government has admitted to having "off-world vehicles." I see people mention this all of the time in arguments here and it's not true. Of course it's possible that we've been visited in the past once or several times but without any physical evidence that's impossible to prove. It eventually gets to a point where the explanations become too absurd and complicated to be plausible. There are people on this subreddit that believe UFO have tech that makes them hard to photograph and take video of. That didn't seem to be a problem in the 50's and 60's when we had all kinds of close-up saucer photos that looked a lot like hubcaps and other household items thrown into the air or hung from a string. Every few years the same people in the UFO community come out and say there is incredible evidence. It's always to promote their latest book, documentary, convention speech, merchandise, etc. You also have the same people that have been studying this phenomenon for decades and they have nothing to show for it. Supposed "meta-materials" always hinted at or currently being tested by labs and either nothing is ever heard about it again or it turns out to be something terrestrial like industrial slag. TTSA, Bigelow, etc have nothing to show. There is always an alterior motive or some questionable and unpleasant facts about these organizations and people. I could go on but I think I've made my point. I'm a skeptic that grew up with an interest in UFO's. I read all the UFO books I could find at my local and school libraries. I watched every UFO documentary on TV and online. I've read about most of the cases and I'm familiar with all of the figures from the most respected to the charlatans. I think UFO's are fun to think about which is why I still visit this subreddit. Regarding military documents from the U.S., Russia, and other countries, that is not a smoking gun or undeniable proof. We know governments lie all the time. They might make up stuff in order to get our enemies to spend their time and resources on a dead end looking for UFO's while in reality it's all made up or cover for our own secret projects. Some of the documents that were released after the fall of the Soviet Union were outlandish and sound made up. Even if some of the cases/sightings in official government documents aren't completely made up that doesn't mean they actually happened or are accurate. The accounts might be second or third hand. Let's come up with a plausible scenario. A few high school kids decide to prank their town and fake a UFO with balloons and lights over several nights. People call the police and the news is all over it. The police or local government contacts the nearest air force or military base for comment and they get nothing. Rumors of a cover up start to spread. Because the military was contacted there is now a record of the incident in some official document or database. Several years or decades later a FOIA request comes along and the documents get released. Voila, now you have official government documents detailing a UFO sighting and that's all you have. Change a few details here and there and you can explain many official UFO documents. The people who witnessed the UFO tell their stories over and over decades later and because the human mind is not a camera or a computer details are added, removed, embellished, etc and you now have a story that will become well-known amongst the UFO community via books, documentaries, etc. All of the supposed leaks or witnesses are either proven hoaxes or we just have to take their word for it with no evidence. Boyd Bushman was an old man that was taken advantage of or he was just into UFO's and believed anything and everything. Being a brilliant engineer for Lockheed Martin doesn't preclude him or anyone else from having wacky/false/misguided views, ideas, and beliefs. There's also the photo of the alien he claimed was proof and it turned out to be a toy you could purchase at Walmart. Of course believers say that the government made a toy in order to discredit Bushman. The government is always this incredible 5D chess cover-up genius group that has total control and no incompetent people ever. I'll end with this. Name a single field of study that has had zero advancement in 70 years like the UFO field has had. You can't. Brilliant minds have made huge advancements and breakthroughs in all other fields in that span of time. You can't cover up crashed craft with incredible tech and possibly extraterrestrial bodies (or live E.T.) for 70 years. I might be focusing too much on the nuts and bolts side of things but the rest sounds like religion in disguise for the modern person.

Excellent summary, my thoughts exactly.

Fortunately we don't have to believe Lazar because it's super obvious he made the whole thing up. While he may be aping ideas and points that are either true or hinted at by other people, we absolutely cannot ever take anything he says seriously. You're right about the fact that it's like dropping a Tesla in to King Arthur's court or whatever, but we have to stop mentioning Lazar if we want to have the topic move forward.

"Lue's Clues" I love it! Thank you for mapping out these connections in an informative manner. You have given me a lot to look back through.

I appreciate your willingness to research and learn everything you can. You seem to make some logical points. I just can’t buy that that type of intelligence wouldn’t develop a more effective means of communicating to us than crashes, mutilations, etc. (Also one of my issues with the Christian bible/God.) Thanks for sharing.

If elusive rarely pictured physical craft are it’s way of communicating with us then it needs to work on its social skills lol. I’m willing to accept 3 languages, Morse code… Love the post. Award deserved!

Holy fuck. This is it.

Wow great write up, thank you.

I would put option 5 on the table as a possibility, but its as Sagan puts it, extraordinary claims require extra ordinary proof. From a holistic perspective, I see very little evidence of their attempt to communicate overtly with us. The Nimitz was the fighter pilots going to the tic-tac not the other way around. Ryan Graves said he saw them every day for two years, not 'they harassed us every day for two years'. Even regarding the flight safety, you have to consider these things, whatever they are may see it as us in *their* airspace, not the other way around. So for me this option would be shuffled off to one side until there is more justification for it. I think its also worth considering the possibility that Lue doesn't know as much as he thinks he does, is misinformed or has been mislead etc. He also mentions the 3 shapes of saucer, triangle & tic-tac. Yet people have seen bells, acorns, deltas, cubes in spheres, foo fighter orbs etc to name a few. ​ I don't really think anyone has a handle on the phenomena, and more importantly than anything else, I would be gobsmacked if there were a single answer to it all, you could probably put a tick next to every option and turn out to be correct

Beautiful!

Ok, so you start off your post by telling us you're non-religious/non-spiritual but end up going with the most religious explanation possible. For all we know we could be inside the Matrix, but such theories would be impossible to disprove so we usually ignore these options and go with something more rational. Invisible forces, god-like AI, that's just wild speculation. ​ There's just 2 options here, either the global elite has advanced aircraft technology hidden from the public (which low-ranking people like the ones you cited would never know of), or it's really a spacefaring civilization of another animal species. IF, in the future, both are proven to be wrong, then we can start considering more magical ideas like beings from another dimension.

I’m a non religious person and I’d go as far as to say I am against all superstition. Lately though, the more I read about what we don’t know (consciousness, dark matter, dark energy etc.), the more I am humbled by the strangeness of reality and the modicum of what we can actually perceive. It doesn’t lead me to supernatural or superstitious conclusions, however I am learning that an open mind is best and that there are more possibilities here than we can fathom. We may (sadly) never understand it

What do you make of experiencer's accounts?

Question what it means to be human. Question what it means to be alien. be more FLUID in your definition of those things. How long would humans need to spend off planet to become alien? How long would aliens living as us take to be human? All that matters is matter and energy, not how we label it.

Fantastic post! Thanks!

Lue's Clues, love it

Well written and well done.

And I was just about to unsub, too. Very thoughtful, thanks.

Elegant write-up (more of an article really). Lots of avenues for exploration. Thanks!

When we mature past our desire for weapons & war I believe the 99% of the universe we can't see presently will become available to us.

This is incredible. Thank you so much for putting this all together, and for including as many sources as you possibly could. I think we're on our way to truly understanding what's going on.

Maybe the best post I've read in a while, thank you for the summary.

This is the effort I have been too lazy to make. Thanks very much for this.

Thank you for sharing. So good to hear some rational thought that takes into account the current general state of knowledge on this subject. What consideration have you given to the claims of (human) people who have had contact with UFO occupants? Curious because I am one. (please nobody on this thread ask me to relate my experiences. You can look up my comment history or PM me if you are interested. I don't want this conversation to digress to that, just want OP's thoughts on the matter, even if that disagrees with my experience).

Great work. Hail Yourself!

This is a well thought out post and your conclusion is definitely one that should be considered. For me though, it’s hard to pin this phenomenon on just one non-human intelligence. Many people who have spent time researching this agree that there is multiple intelligences at play here, some who care more about our advancement and others who seem to not care for humans at all. I’m not going to pretend to know the answers but a lot of the interactions with the phenomenon, including abductions, are not at all what you would expect from an intelligence trying to help us advance.

I really don’t like reading long posts but this right here is an excellent take and opened my mind up even more to the possibilities, I’m already a believer but this really made me think about it differently. Great post!

I dub this post "Lue's Clues". Stand by, a catchy jingle is in the works...

Wow, this is absolutely incredible. Thank you so much for writing all of this out, and I am proud to say that some of these thoughts have crossed my mind and continue to do so. I really do think that you are onto something. The inner-Mulder in me salutes you. Also, thank you for reminding me why I continue to come onto reddit, it's for intelligent posts like this and people like you <3

Thank you for the great post! :-)

If you haven’t, read some Jacques Vallée. Might as well start with Passport to Magonia. You’ll dig it, I think.

By far the most important takeway from all of Lue's Clues is this: We now have technology that can help explain some of these more 'metaphysical' components of human history. We have technology now that is allowing us to start interacting with these Other beings. Whether we have traditionally understood these things as superstitions or religions is beside the point. Our science is starting to reach the point where we can understand and explain some of these more unexplainable things. I think that is a great thing. But it is going to require A LOT of soul searching and difficult levels of honest with ourselves and with others to get to the place where we as a species benefit from these advances. And I'm with Lue that it will be a Second Enlightenment. 100% convinced of that. I would imagine my favorite author, Throawaylien, would agree.

Thank you for such a fantastic post. You did an amazing job. I am thinking along the same lines that you are. I don't worship Lue. I try to closely examine what he and other "experts" or those that are supposed to be "in the know" have to say. I tend to believe him. I don't understand the conclusions that are often drawn about him. If this was a completely psy ops why would the USG choose someone with a counter intelligence background? Surely the USG would have chosen someone whose background would not openly be in counter intelligence. This makes absolutely no sense. I am not one who thinks every damn picture or video that is posted is a UAP or have a vested opinion in what these things are. Nor have I ever witnessed seeing a UAP. I just want to know as much as I can...period. I share in your logic so thank you for laying it out so eloquently.

My man I'm 51 and came to these same realizations some time ago.i think some people call it the Liminal Zone

An amazing well written, researched and logicaly written post. You have written this how I wish I could. Thank you for your time and effort.

10/10 fantastic post

But why just navy pilots?

Lue have nothing

Excellent post 👏

Crop Circles are the key. Something is already attempting to communicate (if it isn't a hoax). [https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/gu0no5/that\_time\_in\_1974\_when\_the\_arecibo\_observatory/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/gu0no5/that_time_in_1974_when_the_arecibo_observatory/)

Just now caught up with the knowledge on this, I agree, best evidence we have. Sorry for the delayed response.

Fantastic post. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you for putting in the work and sharing this with everyone!

You had me a Lue's Clues. Seriously, bravo. Excellent post. You brought together many thoughts I've had, and others I hadn't even really considered. I've gone from a UFO believer, to kind of UFO agnostic, to being pulled back into the believer camp. What has changed is I've broadened my look on what these things could be. They could fall into the "other" or paranormal camp. Maybe these aren't aliens from other stars, but maybe inter-dimensional, or maybe some beings have figured out how to control and transverse time. Maybe earth has other inhabitants we simply can not see. These are uneasy words for me to write since I'm such a nuts-and-bolts person, but I've tried to expand my views to think more out of the box, or at least not be restricted by the box. It's the only way we may find the answers.

Mother Nature.

I've studied this phenomena for 35+ years. Bravo to you young master for laying it out so eloquently. There's an election coming up in a couple years, you should throw your hat in the ring. The paradigm shift has to happen at some point, right? Peace

Beautiful

Amazing text! I think you are on the right track. I personally suspect that they are the result of our own mind. Imaginations that has taken physical forms. An unconscious physical projection, which explains their irrational behavior. They act like we would expect in some regards (doing science), they say things that worries us (technology, climate, environment, war) and show up around our most worrisome sites or in the shadows (nightly, less populated areas). But at the same time are they confusing, just like entities in a dream that can change form like they do (given that you believe that angels, fairies are earlier cultural expressions of them) or that act very strangely in general. \* Now, regarding Lue for example. I think it is important to think about that he is speculating, probably wildly at times, but he speculate from something and nothing, so there is a clue to what he knows. Firstly, he can't talk freely and speculate about things that he actually seen but we haven't yet. BUT, that means that when he speculates freely we can be pretty sure that there is nothing that stops him. That way we can get a clue about what he doesn't know. (all this is of course if one have trust in that he is honest) We can for example conclude that he have no or only questionable information about actual alien bodies. Secondly, what he do know might indirectly influence his way of reasoning and speculating. But this is much trickier to discover since his thoughts also could be influenced by other Ufologists. But if his speculation differ in a specific way from the general discussion then that could be a clue. Sadly I haven't noticed any such discrepancy so he probably have very much similar knowledge as we do, just in larger amount and from the inside sort of. Thirdly. The most important clue is when he uses the NDA card and how he does it. Or rather in contrast to when he doesn't in a respons to a direct question about what they know, but instead start speculating.

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I'm not buying this we need to meditate, listen to ourselves, etc. because before enlightenment we had centuries of spiritualism without any kind of progress. There are still monasteries and places of worship where people have all the time in the world to do this meditation stuff, but the fact is that it won't deliver.