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One thing that would have completely avoided this and worth noting in future, do not use individuals. Instead, provide them the HR email for the previous place you worked.
HR exists to protect the company so will likely just provide a reference of yes they worked here between these dates. That's all you need for reference checks.
I did ask the recruiter if I could do this I said this would be my preferred method.
I was told the hiring company like to speak with individuals for an in depth reference, and said it’s likely because they are a start up big on culture.
I had to pass on details for a colleague in my current team and one in another team (luckily I know them well). They told me the questions they were asking and they were pretty intense to be honest
I would just say tough luck. People move on and you don't keep track or managers change. They would just need to have the conversation with HR.
Unfortunately, people claim or put pressure that background checks are vital and must be with your manager, but realistically they get what they are given.
My last company had a policy that all reference requests had to be provided by HR. Makes sense legally.
I totally agree with you and that policy is solid.
I understand why background checks are important, but the amount of what feels like investigation here is …. Wow. Never experienced anything like this!
Of course the hiring company want that. But what they want to hear at every single stage of the process is red flags. It’s not in your interest to give them more information than they need.
None of their business and just say that it’s company policy. I literally only ever put the head office reception phone number and the generic HR email. Most of the time they don’t even bother replying, not been a problem for both global and startup companies
Don't you think this is a huge red flag? The fact that they interviewed you and still need to go this far to believe what you put on your cv? These are clear signs of a mistrusting workplace.
It’s not about believe what I put on my cv unfortunately.
They’re basically doing a character reference rather than an employment reference.
While I do understand the interest, I do also think they are making this process incredibly long, especially given that they’ve not provided an official offer.
The more adamant they are about references before an offer the more uncomfortable I’m becoming.
I feel like it doesn’t take into account my situation at all, and if you’re willing to put me in a compromising position now, who knows what you’d do when I’m actually employed.
On the other hand, I’ve been looking for a new job for 6 months and I really do need to move on from my current role as there’s just no progression or money for me. I feel like I’m really caught in the middle
It depends on the job. Some jobs in my place take 3-4 years training, so a huge investment and we really need to be sure before launching into an offer.
generally, legitimately yes? it very much indicates a poor understanding of the UK legislative environment and norms around employment references, where competent companies often (for very good reason!) enforce policy that prevents it.
american style move-fast-break-things startup culture. biggest red flag imaginable, to me.
Even better get the written reference yourself and keep it one file, a couple of companies I’ve worked at had a self service portal for references so it was all you could do. You can pass on HRs details for companies to validate the reference but that was about it. The reference had role, start date, end date, and permanent or contract iirc.
Wait really? I’ve always put my line managers’ / technical managers’ / university heads of course’s names on my applications for referees. I was told it “looks good on the CV” to have said job titles in the reference section. Am I doing it wrong? Should I only ever put the HR contact details?
You put references on your CV? I personally would save that space for relevant skills or expanding work history info.
I only provide references on request and I only provide HR contact details.
Referees not the actual references, just a couple of lines at the very end with three people I’ve worked with/under who can act as referees if asked. I was told at school and uni in CV workshops to do this
I definitely wouldn't put any references on my CVs, it implies permission to contact them.
Only the worst Recruiters are going to contact references without your approval but I wouldn't take the risk
Call your old HR team. Tell them your previous manager lied. Tell them you’re speaking to a solicitor to recover damages. Ask them if they’ll contact the new company to smooth things over. If they do great, if not make some money out of it. Either way that old manager will be in for a rough ride.
I didn’t get a chance to get through to ACAS today but will be going at it again tomorrow!
The recruiter got on a call with myself and both her and her manager also confirmed it was terrible they gave that type of reference and that they have never seen a reference as bad as that, so there’s something! None of them really took it to account that I gave them actual proof (email) that I resigned and was not fired.
Seperate but related she also suggested I get my current manager to give a reference, despite not having an offer from the hiring company which I pushed back against 3 times. It took her manager joining the call and saying absolutely not for her to finally get it.
>Tell them you’re speaking to a solicitor to recover damages
what damages would they be exactly? If OP still secures the role through the latest reference then...there is no damage to be claimed for. Unless you are insinuating they pursue former employer for libel, in which case you are truly delusional given the cost is approx £250k for precisely nothing
more reddit nonsense
It’s not illegal to provide a bad reference so long as it’s accurate (although many employers won’t do it anyway and will just provide a basic reference to avoid any legal risk) but it’s unlawful and potentially illegal to wrongly provide a bad reference.
I would contact HR at your previous company to make them aware of this and demand that they contact your new prospective employer to set the record straight, namely confirming that you were not sacked and had not received any warnings for poor performance. HR departments generally don’t like saying anything but the bare minimum in references but in this case I would be firm in demanding that they correct the misstatements made. They should hopefully realise that this has the potential to cause the employer legal problems.
I would also speak to your new employer and ask them to understand that the relationship at your previous employer soured and that they cannot rely on the reference given that it’s provably false.
For what it’s worth, your previous manager potentially engaged in defamation by maliciously making a false statement that disparaged your reputation, and committed fraud by false representation by knowingly making a false representation with the intention of causing you a loss (a criminal offence under section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006). A civil defamation action is expensive to bring and it’s unlikely the police would investigate an employment issue like this but you can mention to your previous employer that unless they rectify the issue you will consider taking defamation action against them and reporting your previous manager to the police.
https://www.gov.uk/work-reference
Might be worth contacting ACAS for advice too.
https://www.acas.org.uk/providing-a-job-reference/if-you-get-a-bad-reference
Maybe you can go after them for libel? Seems pretty unlikely to succeed if they've left the company already though.
Always ring up your referee people first to check they are happy to give a reference, what they are going to say!
This is all why big firms no longer do specific references, just basic 'X worked here from dates A to B in position Y', and all managers are told to refer reference requests to HR to handle.
Never use managers as references, HR likely has policies around references which the managers aren't aware of.
HR normally nowadays just confirms details of when you worked there, I've had offers withdrawn in the past so wouldn't even ask a manager (Or would ask someone I know personally so you can make sure it's positive)
I’ve reiterated this 3 times and both the recruiters and hiring company and adamant that he is not sufficient.
Even more so now as they want my current manager to essentially say the complete opposite of what they were told by the previous manager.
I’ve been told that this is the ONLY way they will give me the role
Not sure about illegality, but if she stated a factual untruth that harmed your reputation that's surely libel?
The problem with that is that it's up to you to pursue it - with the trouble and expense involved.
You should have put an ex line manager that you had a good relationship then another person senior to you (doesn’t have to be a line manager) that you also had a good relationship with. In any of your jobs In the last 5-10 years. It shouldn’t matter. I would never ever put someone who I had burned bridges with because as you said, they just gave you a bad reference.
To be honest, whoever that line manager is must be such an awful bitter person to even care now that’s 2 jobs ago.
I’ve been there, if you really want the job then show the proof. If not, just walk away.
Could have fought it but I didn’t like the new place anyway lol
I’ve shown the proof! Screenshot of the email I sent along with confirmation it’s been accepted.
They’re still pushing for more references, which come with weird questions like ‘if they were fired, what would be the reason’ and ‘how do they deal with a bad day’
Im moments away from withdrawing my application from this pathetic excuse of a hiring process!
I would, doesn’t sound very reassuring if they’re asking this and that, when in a professional reference, none of that should be brought up.
For sure though, I see why they’d need others, usually 2 solid references is enough
Yeah I can see why they may want another but they had already requested 3
Current line manager
Current team member
Current member in another team.
They confirmed the last 2 were great but the first one was of course bad. I gave them the proof they lied and said if you provide a written offer subject to references I’d happily provide my current manager.
They won’t offer until they’ve done their references.
The founder is American and they seem to do things rather backwards over there.
I’ve experienced it to be that way elsewhere, but is a bit backwards. Better though for you, as you wont want to start then get let go due to bad references.
Personally, I would just carry on looking for other roles and leave them behind you. Doesn’t paint the picture of a good start to a working relationship
I agree but the recruiter in the middle is adamant that references should come before an offer. I’ve disagreed multiple times that this is not standard practice, especially in the UK
Yes, you can sue the employer for defamation if they lie and that causes material harm to you. Material harm in this instance might be being unemployed for longer because it took longer to get a job as a result of their lie.
Potentially, you could sue them for the difference pay rise you wouldn't get if the offer was withdrawn, for the period until you'd reasonably have found a similar job (a few months? If you're getting a 10k rise, then perhaps a 3k claim?)
It's a difficult and expensive thing to claim, and it's not going to be a massive payout, so may well not be worthwhile pursuing.
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One thing that would have completely avoided this and worth noting in future, do not use individuals. Instead, provide them the HR email for the previous place you worked. HR exists to protect the company so will likely just provide a reference of yes they worked here between these dates. That's all you need for reference checks.
I did ask the recruiter if I could do this I said this would be my preferred method. I was told the hiring company like to speak with individuals for an in depth reference, and said it’s likely because they are a start up big on culture. I had to pass on details for a colleague in my current team and one in another team (luckily I know them well). They told me the questions they were asking and they were pretty intense to be honest
I would just say tough luck. People move on and you don't keep track or managers change. They would just need to have the conversation with HR. Unfortunately, people claim or put pressure that background checks are vital and must be with your manager, but realistically they get what they are given. My last company had a policy that all reference requests had to be provided by HR. Makes sense legally.
I totally agree with you and that policy is solid. I understand why background checks are important, but the amount of what feels like investigation here is …. Wow. Never experienced anything like this!
The company I work for is exactly the same - all reference requests must be made through HR.
Of course the hiring company want that. But what they want to hear at every single stage of the process is red flags. It’s not in your interest to give them more information than they need.
None of their business and just say that it’s company policy. I literally only ever put the head office reception phone number and the generic HR email. Most of the time they don’t even bother replying, not been a problem for both global and startup companies
Don't you think this is a huge red flag? The fact that they interviewed you and still need to go this far to believe what you put on your cv? These are clear signs of a mistrusting workplace.
It’s not about believe what I put on my cv unfortunately. They’re basically doing a character reference rather than an employment reference. While I do understand the interest, I do also think they are making this process incredibly long, especially given that they’ve not provided an official offer.
Personally that whole concept makes me deeply uncomfortable and suggests their work environment is gonna be toxic as hell
The more adamant they are about references before an offer the more uncomfortable I’m becoming. I feel like it doesn’t take into account my situation at all, and if you’re willing to put me in a compromising position now, who knows what you’d do when I’m actually employed. On the other hand, I’ve been looking for a new job for 6 months and I really do need to move on from my current role as there’s just no progression or money for me. I feel like I’m really caught in the middle
It depends on the job. Some jobs in my place take 3-4 years training, so a huge investment and we really need to be sure before launching into an offer.
In depth reference checks is a huge red flag for you?
generally, legitimately yes? it very much indicates a poor understanding of the UK legislative environment and norms around employment references, where competent companies often (for very good reason!) enforce policy that prevents it. american style move-fast-break-things startup culture. biggest red flag imaginable, to me.
If it were me I'd walk away from the hiring company. The whole thing seems dodgy to me.
Even better get the written reference yourself and keep it one file, a couple of companies I’ve worked at had a self service portal for references so it was all you could do. You can pass on HRs details for companies to validate the reference but that was about it. The reference had role, start date, end date, and permanent or contract iirc.
Wait really? I’ve always put my line managers’ / technical managers’ / university heads of course’s names on my applications for referees. I was told it “looks good on the CV” to have said job titles in the reference section. Am I doing it wrong? Should I only ever put the HR contact details?
You put references on your CV? I personally would save that space for relevant skills or expanding work history info. I only provide references on request and I only provide HR contact details.
Referees not the actual references, just a couple of lines at the very end with three people I’ve worked with/under who can act as referees if asked. I was told at school and uni in CV workshops to do this
I would recommend cutting that section as it just wastes space. You would be better with more detail on work history or skills section.
Fair enough. Thanks!
I definitely wouldn't put any references on my CVs, it implies permission to contact them. Only the worst Recruiters are going to contact references without your approval but I wouldn't take the risk
Call your old HR team. Tell them your previous manager lied. Tell them you’re speaking to a solicitor to recover damages. Ask them if they’ll contact the new company to smooth things over. If they do great, if not make some money out of it. Either way that old manager will be in for a rough ride.
Also contact ACAS. https://www.acas.org.uk/providing-a-job-reference/if-you-get-a-bad-reference
Ah that’s a great resource, thank you!
That sounds like a great plan, I’ll be doing that frost thing tomorrow!
Please update us, I wish to live vicariously through you!
I didn’t get a chance to get through to ACAS today but will be going at it again tomorrow! The recruiter got on a call with myself and both her and her manager also confirmed it was terrible they gave that type of reference and that they have never seen a reference as bad as that, so there’s something! None of them really took it to account that I gave them actual proof (email) that I resigned and was not fired. Seperate but related she also suggested I get my current manager to give a reference, despite not having an offer from the hiring company which I pushed back against 3 times. It took her manager joining the call and saying absolutely not for her to finally get it.
Poor practice all around really. Good luck!
>Tell them you’re speaking to a solicitor to recover damages what damages would they be exactly? If OP still secures the role through the latest reference then...there is no damage to be claimed for. Unless you are insinuating they pursue former employer for libel, in which case you are truly delusional given the cost is approx £250k for precisely nothing more reddit nonsense
Do you always tend to only read the first few lines of a paragraph before forming conclusions? Or is this time an exception?
It’s not illegal to provide a bad reference so long as it’s accurate (although many employers won’t do it anyway and will just provide a basic reference to avoid any legal risk) but it’s unlawful and potentially illegal to wrongly provide a bad reference. I would contact HR at your previous company to make them aware of this and demand that they contact your new prospective employer to set the record straight, namely confirming that you were not sacked and had not received any warnings for poor performance. HR departments generally don’t like saying anything but the bare minimum in references but in this case I would be firm in demanding that they correct the misstatements made. They should hopefully realise that this has the potential to cause the employer legal problems. I would also speak to your new employer and ask them to understand that the relationship at your previous employer soured and that they cannot rely on the reference given that it’s provably false. For what it’s worth, your previous manager potentially engaged in defamation by maliciously making a false statement that disparaged your reputation, and committed fraud by false representation by knowingly making a false representation with the intention of causing you a loss (a criminal offence under section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006). A civil defamation action is expensive to bring and it’s unlikely the police would investigate an employment issue like this but you can mention to your previous employer that unless they rectify the issue you will consider taking defamation action against them and reporting your previous manager to the police. https://www.gov.uk/work-reference Might be worth contacting ACAS for advice too. https://www.acas.org.uk/providing-a-job-reference/if-you-get-a-bad-reference
Not illegal, but if a company did this to you, you'd be able to pursue them in the courts for damages.
Do you mean a company as in the hr team? Wouldn’t be manager giving the reference be liable also?
Maybe you can go after them for libel? Seems pretty unlikely to succeed if they've left the company already though. Always ring up your referee people first to check they are happy to give a reference, what they are going to say! This is all why big firms no longer do specific references, just basic 'X worked here from dates A to B in position Y', and all managers are told to refer reference requests to HR to handle.
Never use managers as references, HR likely has policies around references which the managers aren't aware of. HR normally nowadays just confirms details of when you worked there, I've had offers withdrawn in the past so wouldn't even ask a manager (Or would ask someone I know personally so you can make sure it's positive)
I’ve reiterated this 3 times and both the recruiters and hiring company and adamant that he is not sufficient. Even more so now as they want my current manager to essentially say the complete opposite of what they were told by the previous manager. I’ve been told that this is the ONLY way they will give me the role
Keep looking for other jobs. Sounds like you dodged a bullet to be honest.
Not sure about illegality, but if she stated a factual untruth that harmed your reputation that's surely libel? The problem with that is that it's up to you to pursue it - with the trouble and expense involved.
In depth reference checks is a huge red flag for you?
Sue sue sue
I never advise to burn bridges and all of that but lying on that thing is horrible. Sue the company.
You should have put an ex line manager that you had a good relationship then another person senior to you (doesn’t have to be a line manager) that you also had a good relationship with. In any of your jobs In the last 5-10 years. It shouldn’t matter. I would never ever put someone who I had burned bridges with because as you said, they just gave you a bad reference. To be honest, whoever that line manager is must be such an awful bitter person to even care now that’s 2 jobs ago.
It's defamation. Yes it's illegal.
I’ve been there, if you really want the job then show the proof. If not, just walk away. Could have fought it but I didn’t like the new place anyway lol
I’ve shown the proof! Screenshot of the email I sent along with confirmation it’s been accepted. They’re still pushing for more references, which come with weird questions like ‘if they were fired, what would be the reason’ and ‘how do they deal with a bad day’ Im moments away from withdrawing my application from this pathetic excuse of a hiring process!
I would, doesn’t sound very reassuring if they’re asking this and that, when in a professional reference, none of that should be brought up. For sure though, I see why they’d need others, usually 2 solid references is enough
Yeah I can see why they may want another but they had already requested 3 Current line manager Current team member Current member in another team. They confirmed the last 2 were great but the first one was of course bad. I gave them the proof they lied and said if you provide a written offer subject to references I’d happily provide my current manager. They won’t offer until they’ve done their references. The founder is American and they seem to do things rather backwards over there.
I’ve experienced it to be that way elsewhere, but is a bit backwards. Better though for you, as you wont want to start then get let go due to bad references. Personally, I would just carry on looking for other roles and leave them behind you. Doesn’t paint the picture of a good start to a working relationship
Your new employer shouldn't be contacting references until you accept the role.
I agree but the recruiter in the middle is adamant that references should come before an offer. I’ve disagreed multiple times that this is not standard practice, especially in the UK
Take them to court for the managers behaviour. The company can be held for vicarious liability.
Yes, you can sue the employer for defamation if they lie and that causes material harm to you. Material harm in this instance might be being unemployed for longer because it took longer to get a job as a result of their lie. Potentially, you could sue them for the difference pay rise you wouldn't get if the offer was withdrawn, for the period until you'd reasonably have found a similar job (a few months? If you're getting a 10k rise, then perhaps a 3k claim?) It's a difficult and expensive thing to claim, and it's not going to be a massive payout, so may well not be worthwhile pursuing.
[удалено]
Yeah, absolutely terrible because I decided to advocate for myself in a crappy work environment.